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i do think, that the OP has a valid point in arguing, that P´s timing attacks, that are meant to hinder zergs econ will suffer from this buff. i agree, that a non hindered zerg econ is quite unstoppable.
True question is how much will the nerf hinder P´s 2base 4 gate/ 4 gate stargate or similar. The biggest impact will be seen to my opinion on pro level, `coz to my experience zergs up to masters don´t kite that actively. I do guess, the impact will be a bit smaller off, even as P´s midgame is slightly buffed in the mid by the increased obs build time you can fit it in better to churn out immortals in order to stop the 11-12 min roach max.
the most valid approach to me seems to be, that Blizzard felt some, in my pov legitimate need, to fix hellions tvz and didnt know a better option. It´s by far the slightest change to affect this phase of tvz, in comparison to directly nerfing hellion damage/range or queen damage.
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Not to mention it being zerg's sole AA unit for a large period of time.
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On May 12 2012 10:40 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:35 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote:
How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine 4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ hold up that doesnt make sense, toss have been getting an extremely safe 3 base for a while now how would heavily investing in wasted supply (queens) make it easier to attack there third? and sounds like your talking about an all-in push on the third so if you scout alot of queens just get the third and prepare for the all-in also do you mean 4-5 EXTRA queens or 4-5 queens total? becuase if its in total then only 2-3 queens can ever actual join in the fight since 2 of them are are at your other 2 bases
because your not mining gas so you can drone + power up much faster, ur 4th hatch finishs earlier and u compensate for the late gas by taking 1-2 extra gases than usual so u can maxout on roachs or w/e tech u want asap, this is like the 10th time that im explaining the same thing
also zerg can just take a 4th when they scout protoss taking an early 3rd  , just watch how ret plays
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On May 12 2012 10:44 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:42 Jakkerr wrote:If I would have been the blizzard balance guy the queen change would have never happened. Instead spinecrawlers would have 10 second faster buildtime. That just sounds so much more logical to me, atm you can't build reactionary spinecrawlers cause they aren't up in time when you scout hellions or smthn. Spinecrawlers are MEANT for defending, Queens aren't, although they do help a lot obviously (ZvZ  ) Queens are meant for defending hence there abysmal movement speed of creep and there heal
you get my point -.-
Zergs need to pull their queens and make 3-4-5 of them early game because it sucks defending vs stuff if you can't even build spinecrawlers in time when you scout it.
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On May 12 2012 10:46 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:40 Forikorder wrote:On May 12 2012 10:35 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote:
How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine 4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ hold up that doesnt make sense, toss have been getting an extremely safe 3 base for a while now how would heavily investing in wasted supply (queens) make it easier to attack there third? and sounds like your talking about an all-in push on the third so if you scout alot of queens just get the third and prepare for the all-in also do you mean 4-5 EXTRA queens or 4-5 queens total? becuase if its in total then only 2-3 queens can ever actual join in the fight since 2 of them are are at your other 2 bases because your not mining gas so you can drone + power up much faster, ur 4th hatch finishs earlier and u compensate for the late gas by taking 1-2 extra gases than usual so u can maxout on roachs or w/e tech u want asap, this is like the 10th time that im explaining the same thing also zerg can just take a 4th when they scout protoss taking an early 3rd , just watch how ret plays
but if the zerg plays passive then the toss jsut turtles to archon toilet and kills the entire zerg army in 4 archon volleys
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On May 12 2012 10:47 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:46 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 12 2012 10:40 Forikorder wrote:On May 12 2012 10:35 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote:
How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine 4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ hold up that doesnt make sense, toss have been getting an extremely safe 3 base for a while now how would heavily investing in wasted supply (queens) make it easier to attack there third? and sounds like your talking about an all-in push on the third so if you scout alot of queens just get the third and prepare for the all-in also do you mean 4-5 EXTRA queens or 4-5 queens total? becuase if its in total then only 2-3 queens can ever actual join in the fight since 2 of them are are at your other 2 bases because your not mining gas so you can drone + power up much faster, ur 4th hatch finishs earlier and u compensate for the late gas by taking 1-2 extra gases than usual so u can maxout on roachs or w/e tech u want asap, this is like the 10th time that im explaining the same thing also zerg can just take a 4th when they scout protoss taking an early 3rd , just watch how ret plays but if the zerg plays passive then the toss jsut turtles to archon toilet and kills the entire zerg army in 4 archon volleys
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The argument doesn't make sense / hold up. In one breath you're saying that they can build up extra queens to hold off pressure, how could they not do that before? If it's vs zealots it's still a ranged unit vs melee so it's pretty much exactly the same, yes a perhaps little easier but still the same concept. Ok stalkers is harder to kite but once more you wouldn't be kiting or doing significant damage vs 3+ queens at the location anyway, even with their old range.
Then you're talking about how a Zerg can punish your fast third, once more how is that related to the queen getting +2 range? It's a pretty long bow to stretch a queen having 2 extra range into making your third impossible to hold.
Have you got any replays to support this?
I respect that you're a much better player than me, however it doesn't mean you don't need to back up what you're saying if you make a claim.
Edit: You claim the logic is later gas because you can use queens to defend the pressure meaning you can drone harder. Instead of getting 3 extra queens how is it different to a Zerg getting 3 spines to hold off your 4 gate pressure? You can certainly try and argue that Zerg is imba maxing at 200 fast or something, but if you want to discuss the queen buff you need to directly link it to the queen having +2 range allowing something that was impossible before.
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On May 12 2012 10:44 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:42 Jakkerr wrote:If I would have been the blizzard balance guy the queen change would have never happened. Instead spinecrawlers would have 10 second faster buildtime. That just sounds so much more logical to me, atm you can't build reactionary spinecrawlers cause they aren't up in time when you scout hellions or smthn. Spinecrawlers are MEANT for defending, Queens aren't, although they do help a lot obviously (ZvZ ) Queens are meant for defending hence there abysmal movement speed of creep and there heal
If you can't prevent big creepspread then they suddenly defend half the Map.
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On May 12 2012 10:53 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:44 Forikorder wrote:On May 12 2012 10:42 Jakkerr wrote:If I would have been the blizzard balance guy the queen change would have never happened. Instead spinecrawlers would have 10 second faster buildtime. That just sounds so much more logical to me, atm you can't build reactionary spinecrawlers cause they aren't up in time when you scout hellions or smthn. Spinecrawlers are MEANT for defending, Queens aren't, although they do help a lot obviously (ZvZ ) Queens are meant for defending hence there abysmal movement speed of creep and there heal If you can't prevent big creepspread then they suddenly defend half the Map.
thats like saying if you dont build a wall then zerglings then early pools are really good
by the time creep is at your opponents base they have an army queens are worthless against
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the basically turned the queen into a spellcasting hydra thats actually worth making
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On May 12 2012 10:49 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:47 Forikorder wrote:On May 12 2012 10:46 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 12 2012 10:40 Forikorder wrote:On May 12 2012 10:35 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote:
How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine 4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ hold up that doesnt make sense, toss have been getting an extremely safe 3 base for a while now how would heavily investing in wasted supply (queens) make it easier to attack there third? and sounds like your talking about an all-in push on the third so if you scout alot of queens just get the third and prepare for the all-in also do you mean 4-5 EXTRA queens or 4-5 queens total? becuase if its in total then only 2-3 queens can ever actual join in the fight since 2 of them are are at your other 2 bases because your not mining gas so you can drone + power up much faster, ur 4th hatch finishs earlier and u compensate for the late gas by taking 1-2 extra gases than usual so u can maxout on roachs or w/e tech u want asap, this is like the 10th time that im explaining the same thing also zerg can just take a 4th when they scout protoss taking an early 3rd , just watch how ret plays but if the zerg plays passive then the toss jsut turtles to archon toilet and kills the entire zerg army in 4 archon volleys ...
I'm pretty sure TT1 is talking about going 4-bases and really fast hive tech for Blord Infestor. Your first Blords are at like 14-15 minutes. You can't really get a MShip and an army in time for this if you take an early third. Essentially, the problem is passivity for the P early. When zerg sees FFE they know it'll be the 7.5-8 minute mark before any pressure. When they see a third - well, you can probably tack quite a bit more onto that. At some point, zerg can just tech all the way up and go directly into the lategame. Protoss is slower because you just don't have the resources to get archons, an MShip, stuff to deal with the threat of early pressure, and a sizeable army by 15 minutes. You just don't have the resources. Try it.
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On May 12 2012 10:57 AeroEffect wrote:
the basically turned the queen into a spellcasting hydra thats actually worth making
only with less DPS and range
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On May 12 2012 10:58 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:49 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 12 2012 10:47 Forikorder wrote:On May 12 2012 10:46 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 12 2012 10:40 Forikorder wrote:On May 12 2012 10:35 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote:
How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine 4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ hold up that doesnt make sense, toss have been getting an extremely safe 3 base for a while now how would heavily investing in wasted supply (queens) make it easier to attack there third? and sounds like your talking about an all-in push on the third so if you scout alot of queens just get the third and prepare for the all-in also do you mean 4-5 EXTRA queens or 4-5 queens total? becuase if its in total then only 2-3 queens can ever actual join in the fight since 2 of them are are at your other 2 bases because your not mining gas so you can drone + power up much faster, ur 4th hatch finishs earlier and u compensate for the late gas by taking 1-2 extra gases than usual so u can maxout on roachs or w/e tech u want asap, this is like the 10th time that im explaining the same thing also zerg can just take a 4th when they scout protoss taking an early 3rd , just watch how ret plays but if the zerg plays passive then the toss jsut turtles to archon toilet and kills the entire zerg army in 4 archon volleys ... I'm pretty sure TT1 is talking about going 4-bases and really fast hive tech for Blord Infestor. Your first Blords are at like 14-15 minutes. You can't really get a MShip and an army in time for this if you take an early third. Essentially, the problem is passivity for the P early. When zerg sees FFE they know it'll be the 7.5-8 minute mark before any pressure. When they see a third - well, you can probably tack quite a bit more onto that. At some point, zerg can just tech all the way up and go directly into the lategame. Protoss is slower because you just don't have the resources to get archons, an MShip, stuff to deal with the threat of early pressure, and a sizeable army by 15 minutes. You just don't have the resources. Try it.
its okay because instead of getting a good economy early game they spent too much on all the queens they made
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On May 12 2012 07:45 babbaj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:34 mTwTT1 wrote:
Protoss HAS to do be able to harass zerg in the early game or else they fall behind in eco So, you want to sit and fatten your ass the first 10 minutes of departure, without attacking, without pressure or anything like that ... and supposedly have everything from head to win. Sorry if I exaggerate, but to pretend to equal or exceed a Zerg economically without doing nothing seems a little stupid. The main advantage of the Zerg race is oriented economy and macro.
and then blizzard takes out one of the very few harassing way, LETTING ZERGS DO EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE GOOD AT!
i am terran, and hell, i know the feeling.... i am playing ladder, and i dont see zergs exploiting the new buff... they just sit back with the queens vs my hellions... i dont really thin they`ve noticed it hahahaahha
im not gonna be the one to tell them then!!!
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On May 12 2012 10:52 Peleus wrote:
The argument doesn't make sense / hold up. In one breath you're saying that they can build up extra queens to hold off pressure, how could they not do that before? If it's vs zealots it's still a ranged unit vs melee so it's pretty much exactly the same, yes a perhaps little easier but still the same concept. Ok stalkers is harder to kite but once more you wouldn't be kiting or doing significant damage vs 3+ queens at the location anyway, even with their old range.
Then you're talking about how a Zerg can punish your fast third, once more how is that related to the queen getting +2 range? It's a pretty long bow to stretch a queen having 2 extra range into making your third impossible to hold.
Have you got any replays to support this?
I respect that you're a much better player than me, however it doesn't mean you don't need to back up what you're saying if you make a claim.
Edit: You claim the logic is later gas because you can use queens to defend the pressure meaning you can drone harder. Instead of getting 3 extra queens how is it different to a Zerg getting 3 spines to hold off your 4 gate pressure?
because spines are immobile so u cant defend both ur nat and ur 3rd base? and u need creep spread to hold 4gate pressures with lings and queens, also by making spines u cant afford to make any extra queens so u have to use all ur energy on injections which makes it much harder to defend blink stalker allin or immortal allin follow ups.. if ur gonna play that style then its much more cost efficient to make roachs instead
sorry but i wont answer any other posts related to basic sc2 gameplay
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It's 2 range on a queen, it's not revolutionizing any of the matchups (as if this change has been in effect long enough for people to make this assumption). In fact all it is doing is exactly what blizzard intended it to, help zergs against early game aggression because zerg is the most susceptible to it. To turn around and complain that "zerg is not as susceptible to my early game aggression" is beyond ironic.
Without trying to sound like a complete dick the last PvZ games of TT1 I've personally seen were against Stephano where the exact same badly time build (according to the people casting the game at the time) was used back to back with absolutely no adaptation even when it was completely shut down. Of all the pro toss's I seriously doubt after a single day he has 'exausted' the options available to the race enough to justify thinking this somehow breaks the game.
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On May 12 2012 10:59 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 10:57 AeroEffect wrote:
the basically turned the queen into a spellcasting hydra thats actually worth making
only with less DPS and range
Same range until Hydra range upgrade and though Hydra has higher DPS queen DPS is pretty close.
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and u need creep spread to hold 4gate pressures with lings and queens
isnt that style managed well enough by pushing with an attack vs carapace up ahead and adding more zeals to take care of the lings?
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EPT
