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On May 12 2012 11:30 mTwTT1 wrote:
i think i need to show you guys a replay because its guess its hard to understand what im trying to say just by theorycrafting it, ill try to have slush play vs a protoss while walking him through the build im talking about
I watched you play against Sheth yesterday on Tal Darim altar, where you tried an early zealot pressure, and it was completely shut down by queens. Since it was from Sheth's viewpoint it's impossible to comment on how you yourself played. However, from Sheth's FPview, it looked like the queens were shitting all over the zealots with some slow ling support.
Definitely see where you are coming from in the OPt. I'm thinking of trying out robo builds with warp prism pressures, since even with creep the queen can't keep up with two early attack fronts (which can be provided with a warp prism in one location and a pylon in the other).
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You should've posted replays before creating another thread.
Edit: so basically if the build you're talking about becomes mainstream, protosses and terrans can get free fast third base, no? I don't think queens are going to crush you if you do that, lol.
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On May 12 2012 11:33 ChriseC wrote:
can anyone send me a replay where the 5 queen strat deals more efficiently with a 4gate +1 zealot pressure than the usual 7min roach warren?
well the idea im basically having is that you use 1 spine in the 3rd and a evo chamber (to create awesome sim city) and then just abuse the queen range and drone micro to the fullest to basically ward off any number of zealots (4-8).
so when your +2 queens (from 3 to 5) finish you just sit and save energy (im not sure how much energy they will get but they will get 1 transfuse for sure) and that is just so cool to have around.
so if you deal with it fine, queens have more potential because you didnt need to use up your gas for roaches that are useless anyway while queens are just great for pushing your creep forward and when your macro hatch is done you basically have the ideal number of queens (4hatch, 5 queens)
so its not that they deal with it more efficiently as much as once its over thats when it starts to show off that queens can just do more for you than some stinky roaches
obviously you cant kite zealots with the queens or just fight straight up with them, 2 more range doesnt make them that much better straight up fighters. you use the range to your advantage through sim city drone micro and target firing etc.
queens couldnt actually fire across a hatchery to hit zealot on the other side, but now its exactly so they can do that (just as an example) and thats why i think the extra 2 queens have alot of potential
also imo queens and spine deal with stalkers and sentries much better than roaches when its in small numbers
but if its like a 7gate ofcourse you cant just make up to 10 queens and just fight and expect them to win. the queens are like a thing you throw in so you have it for smaller pressures but for real allins you need to start massproducing units like normal. and i think thats what tt1 is talking about too
if my idea works out correctly manipulating zergs drone balance with light pressure will not be as effective anymore which is super good. not having to worry so much about thinking if its just a 4gate or a 7gate is very good and not come into this typical situation where your massing units and toss just gays around outside you while building a 3rd and walks home at the right time (at which point you know your screwed).
this sim city with queen idea also like, gives you alot of time. assume he does actually allin, then your spine queens and stuff actually should give you enough time to get your units out and recognize hes allin and then respond correctly by massing units.
just having nothing at your 3rd except a few lings and a few roaches when the first warpin comes feels so fragile to me, but if i made more than that it seems like i can get manipulated too much by fake or light pressure
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On May 12 2012 11:35 darkness wrote:
You should've posted replays before creating another thread.
Edit: so basically if the build you're talking about becomes mainstream, protosses and terrans can get free fast third base, no? I don't think queens are going to crush you if you do that, lol.
early 3rd's are very map dependant but protoss can 4gate into a fast 3rd vs roach openers even now
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I don't see why P seems to be complaining that they can no longer send in a probe to scout. Seems kinda hypocritical considering Zerg is the one race that basically can't/doesn't wall where as both T and P could wall in to deny all forms of scouting other than a slow ovie which depending on your luck/building placement or ability to react and kill the ovie, could or couldn't scout. Especially considering they just got an observer build buff time, I realize this doesn't help scouting before robo is out but there is still hallucination.
Just a bystanders opinion on the probe scout complaining.
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On May 12 2012 08:32 Zelniq wrote:
reactions like this happen after basically every significant balance change, it's easy to feel the sudden effects right away and feel like your current styles are no longer as effective, yet also that style has to be that way, due to X. This game is pretty complex and I feel confident that protosses will eventually figure out ways to deal with this. too soon I think to say this change must be reverted.
Are you seriously defending this queen buff?
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On May 12 2012 11:57 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 08:32 Zelniq wrote:
reactions like this happen after basically every significant balance change, it's easy to feel the sudden effects right away and feel like your current styles are no longer as effective, yet also that style has to be that way, due to X. This game is pretty complex and I feel confident that protosses will eventually figure out ways to deal with this. too soon I think to say this change must be reverted. Are you seriously defending this queen buff?
When haven't you complained about a change? I remember some pretty interesting posts by you about terran changes that in hindsight seem absurdly silly.
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Given the state of ZvP recently especially in the GSL I really can't see this change being anything but possitive. I actually hope Idra replies to this thread because I'm sure he'd have a pretty interesting reply.
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On May 12 2012 09:56 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 09:55 aksfjh wrote:On May 12 2012 09:49 Forikorder wrote:On May 12 2012 09:41 Oreo7 wrote:
So many noobies in this thread.
TT1 is talking about the 4gate after FFE. One season of GSL is not indicative of balance. P/T need to be able to pressure Z because they cannot match Z's economy by sitting back and macroing. noones going to blidnly make a million queens and if tyhey make that many queens just to stop the 2 base 4gate then the 4gate succeeded and there economy is in the dumps the 2 base 4gate isnt a threat if they know its coming and prepare for it How is their economy "in the dumps"? Normally, to hold it off, they would have to get gas, which costs drones/larva as well as mining time when getting more gas. Being able to stick to a mineral only economy allows them to get hatcheries faster and increase production, and increases the potential for more gas later. you dont need gas to hold off 2 base 4 gate you dont need gas to hold of regular 4gate
Yes, you do need gas, no, you don't know what you're talking about.
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I'm curious how someone could come to such an absolute conclusion without having replays on hand showing what it is you are experiencing....If you've played enough to say that "Such and such cannot be done anymore" then you should have some games already played that brought you to that conclusion.
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On May 12 2012 11:51 AcuteAnthrax wrote:
I don't see why P seems to be complaining that they can no longer send in a probe to scout. Seems kinda hypocritical considering Zerg is the one race that basically can't/doesn't wall where as both T and P could wall in to deny all forms of scouting other than a slow ovie which depending on your luck/building placement or ability to react and kill the ovie, could or couldn't scout. Especially considering they just got an observer build buff time, I realize this doesn't help scouting before robo is out but there is still hallucination.
Just a bystanders opinion on the probe scout complaining.
Protoss lack the map presence that enables Zerg to reactively defend better than the other two, and lacks Terran's "oh shit" Repair/Bunkers to hold all ins. Protoss reaction to cheese is a lot more stark and specific, and so the scouting has to be a lot more timely and specific. Zerg builds have evolved due to the timings from cheese and the safe timing to get buildings out to be able to reactively deal with cheese (e.g. checking gas in natural of opponent). Protoss builds agianst cheese, on the other hand, pretty much NEED that scout or else you could react too violenty one way (late third from Zerg, can't get into nat/main to scout gas).
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On May 12 2012 12:45 Supah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 11:51 AcuteAnthrax wrote:
I don't see why P seems to be complaining that they can no longer send in a probe to scout. Seems kinda hypocritical considering Zerg is the one race that basically can't/doesn't wall where as both T and P could wall in to deny all forms of scouting other than a slow ovie which depending on your luck/building placement or ability to react and kill the ovie, could or couldn't scout. Especially considering they just got an observer build buff time, I realize this doesn't help scouting before robo is out but there is still hallucination.
Just a bystanders opinion on the probe scout complaining. Protoss lack the map presence that enables Zerg to reactively defend better than the other two, and lacks Terran's "oh shit" Repair/Bunkers to hold all ins. Protoss reaction to cheese is a lot more stark and specific, and so the scouting has to be a lot more timely and specific. Zerg builds have evolved due to the timings from cheese and the safe timing to get buildings out to be able to reactively deal with cheese (e.g. checking gas in natural of opponent). Protoss builds agianst cheese, on the other hand, pretty much NEED that scout or else you could react too violenty one way (late third from Zerg, can't get into nat/main to scout gas).
how many all in do zerg have vs prot tho? bane bust which is prevented with micro of units you should already have. And roach ling which is again help with units you should have. There might be some 2 base all ins when lair hits but you should have a obs outby then.
so other then proxy hatches...really doesn't prot only need to see what route the zerg is going once lair hits?
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On May 12 2012 08:56 Gackt_ wrote:
What can I say? Go figure out how to deal with it protoss and terran players. You guys can just suck it up imo.
Zergs have been figuring out stuff on their own for a LOOOOOOONG time now about dealing with silly stuff the P and T can do. It's your turn now..lol so stop this nonsense.
Did the Zergs complain this much when the Immortal got a range buff? Hell no. Not even close to this T and P whinefest.
is this a troll question?
LOL zergs figuring out stuff on their own? Everything zerg "figured" was nerf from blizzard so dont talk about something you are clueless about. I saw how zergs dealt with protoss deathball, it got nerfed (your race got boosted).
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On May 12 2012 12:09 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 11:57 avilo wrote:On May 12 2012 08:32 Zelniq wrote:
reactions like this happen after basically every significant balance change, it's easy to feel the sudden effects right away and feel like your current styles are no longer as effective, yet also that style has to be that way, due to X. This game is pretty complex and I feel confident that protosses will eventually figure out ways to deal with this. too soon I think to say this change must be reverted. Are you seriously defending this queen buff? When haven't you complained about a change? I remember some pretty interesting posts by you about terran changes that in hindsight seem absurdly silly.
Going off of what you said, it seems this makes zerg more stable as a race. Just because some things don't work as well, doesnt mean the game is broken beyond all belief. It's probably fine, and most of the complaints im seeing are about the ability to pressure early/midgame. That isn't the entire game...hero has stupid lategame pvz for example. Hellion harass is less effective=| hellions gone forever never damage ever. Edit: also 2 rax every game of a finals is less appealing.
Just calm down, zerg is a little more stable. That's my discussion.
Edit: Actually, the pros are talking in here. Morrow knows his stuff, and seems to have found a new style of zvp based on faster 5 queens or something like that. The pros can discuss starcraft like an experienced director/player/singer can discuss a massive choral/orchestral work, understanding the little changes , whats important, whats not. I'm almost sorry I posted here, considering the level of discussion
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I dont think its as bad as you're letting on payam,
but if it turns out you're right after a couple weeks worth of games i'll probably just fake the pressure and take a faster 3rd, deffinnitely not impossible with maps like ohana and cloud kingdom in the map pool now
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On May 12 2012 12:55 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 08:56 Gackt_ wrote:
What can I say? Go figure out how to deal with it protoss and terran players. You guys can just suck it up imo.
Zergs have been figuring out stuff on their own for a LOOOOOOONG time now about dealing with silly stuff the P and T can do. It's your turn now..lol so stop this nonsense.
Did the Zergs complain this much when the Immortal got a range buff? Hell no. Not even close to this T and P whinefest. is this a troll question? LOL zergs figuring out stuff on their own? Everything zerg "figured" was nerf from blizzard so dont talk about something you are clueless about. I saw how zergs dealt with protoss deathball, it got nerfed (your race got boosted).
How aggressively ironic of you.
When was the last time Leenock, Losira, Nestea, Dimaga, Idra or any of those front runner zergs ever done anything actually impressive that pushed the game and zerg further to its limits.
Multi pronged heavy roach aggression, Nydus play, Spine pushing, Baneling drops, forcing base trade scenario with muta to AVOID the deathball.
Was all just blizzard right?
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I am a High Masters Protoss player, and ive been winning a significant amount of PvZ without relying on a cheesy type of 2base timing to damage the zerg economy in order to win. There are other avenues and builds to be discovered and refined that allow us to beat zergs who have fully saturated 5 bases. I remember zerg often used to complain that a 3 base protoss was op and unbeatable. Then somewhere along the lines, 2 base pvz play became the standard and ppl gave up on the idea of Dragging out a PvZ, even when the mothership was shown to be such a powerfull late game answer.
Now i guess what im trying to say is that i dont really see zerg queen range vs ground as a big deal because there are plenty of viable PvZ builds and styles that dont rely on the lame 2 base all-ins everyone has been mindlessly spamming in lieu of adapting to the matchup normally. Queen range will also grant zergs a "false" sense of security to the point you made about how they may now econ even harder, which is going to open up new windows for timings and pressure builds to take advange of. All will be well i say its time we adapt this absolutely boring PvZ mindset that we keep seeing in high level gaming and move on.
P.S. 10 seconds less of observer build time = more stuff from the robotics, and none of those things are bad in PvZ 
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The poll simply means we have a lot of zerg players. It might not be as game breaking in ZvP as in ZvT.
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As someone who goes 99% hellions in early game I dont notice much change in the creepspread itself. What I do notice is that when I runby theres that goddamn queen doing insane steady amount of damage compared to zero OR zerglings only attacking.
SCV scouting allins is harder, Saccing first hellion to see allin is harder. I don't like the animation, I think it's ugly and the change was unnecessary. 
e: I do get huge ass amounts of hellions and go mech*
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EPT
