On May 12 2012 07:54 Dingobloo wrote:
What about the extra range has made them more viable at holding 4 gates that they couldn't do it previously? The extra surface area they have on a unit? Seems unusual.

you cant kite 5range queens + lings on creep and the extra shots they get off on your zealots is huge

Grippe87

Sweden59 Posts

May 11 2012 22:56 GMT

#43

Doesn't really affect ZvP at all really, if Z wastes money on extra queens they don't have enough drones to support the roaches needed to defend the 2 base all ins that 90% of toss still do these days, much less max out after that. 5 queens is 150+150 extra. That's a potential 6 drones. Don't even try to tell me that 2 extra queens aids enough in defending 2 base all ins to justify wasting 300 minerals that could have been drones.

trinxified

Canada7774 Posts

May 11 2012 22:56 GMT

#44

I think the range increase isn't necessary. Perhaps just buff the damage of the Queens...

oxxo

988 Posts

May 11 2012 22:56 GMT

#45

It's pretty broken for both T and P. Blizzard balance team honestly seems to not understand how powerful range is in this game (or any strategy game really). They throw it around like it's nothing.

disco

Netherlands1667 Posts

May 11 2012 22:57 GMT

#46

This makes no sense. The only thing that would make this somehow inbalanced is because people.... actually build more? The extra 2 range doesn't make much of a difference against gateway pressure. What if Day[9] just told people to always build 6 queens before the range buff. That would also have broken the game?

Jinsho

United Kingdom3101 Posts

May 11 2012 22:57 GMT

#47

Considering this comes from TT1, I have a hard time taking it seriously.

Cannon rush the expansion, go +1 zealot rush, do a 6 gate + robo to cause your damage or, you know, go void rays. The GROUND RANGE BUFF does not affect VRs into phoenix whatsoever.

Obelisco

Peru1962 Posts

May 11 2012 22:57 GMT

#48

I agree with TT1, most of the people who are against him are just trying to discredit him without any argument. If you dont harass the zerg you will fall behind in eco easily. Queen buffs make pressure so much difficult and zergs had no problem holding it off until now. With the terran case it was a contain that limited the economy that now is easily broken with a couple of queens. Both vZ no mirrors tried to limit the eco, difference is when does zerg takes a third. One u can control it with a contain, and in PvZ u need to harass because they take a really early third (and nothing is wrong with that), they just should not defend it that easily

Cannon rush the expansion, go +1 zealot rush, do a 6 gate + robo to cause your damage or, you know, go void rays. The GROUND RANGE BUFF does not affect VRs into phoenix whatsoever.

No good zerg that is paying attention will let let his 3rd be cannon rushed, u cannot rely on that

Theovide

Sweden914 Posts

May 11 2012 22:57 GMT

#49

On May 12 2012 07:42 GizmoPT wrote:

Show nested quote +

this ^ i dont understand they say voids and phoenixs got worse when nothing changed in the air range lol...

Really? It's not that hard to understand. Queens can now defend both ground and air attacks, thus making many queens is always good, thus phoenix+voidray is worse.

Moochlol

United States456 Posts

May 11 2012 22:57 GMT

#50

Queens can't kite Zealots ><

MasterKang

United States1373 Posts

May 11 2012 22:57 GMT

#51

I don't like the fact that blizzard implemented the change like a week after they announced it

thrawn2112

United States6918 Posts

May 11 2012 22:57 GMT

#52

i think a lot of people in this thread are underestimating how quickly queens and drones are made

Eee

Sweden2712 Posts

May 11 2012 22:58 GMT

#53

On May 12 2012 07:43 Noocta wrote:

Show nested quote +

Zerg is more likely to make more Queens because they will be as good to defend ground attack.

4 Queen openings were already pretty standard in ZvT aswell as ZvP before this patch (see:Morrow, CoCa etc.).

Theovide

Sweden914 Posts

May 11 2012 22:59 GMT

#54

On May 12 2012 07:56 Spandy87 wrote:
Doesn't really affect ZvP at all really, if Z wastes money on extra queens they don't have enough drones to support the roaches needed to defend the 2 base all ins that 90% of toss still do these days, much less max out after that. 5 queens is 150+150 extra. That's a potential 6 drones. Don't even try to tell me that 2 extra queens aids enough in defending 2 base all ins to justify wasting 300 minerals that could have been drones.

Huh? They are also larva free, and with the range buff having a few behind your roaches is definitely going to be good. Building extra queens is definitely worth it.

BoB_KiLLeR

Spain620 Posts

May 11 2012 22:59 GMT

#55

On May 12 2012 07:57 Jinsho wrote:
Considering this comes from TT1, I have a hard time taking it seriously.

Cannon rush the expansion, go +1 zealot rush, do a 6 gate + robo to cause your damage or, you know, go void rays. The GROUND RANGE BUFF does not affect VRs into phoenix whatsoever.

He doesn't talk about 2 base allins at all. He rather talks about 7-8 min pressure openings after a FFE. Not All-in at all.

Bensio

United Kingdom621 Posts

May 11 2012 23:00 GMT

#56

On May 12 2012 07:46 mTwTT1 wrote:

Show nested quote +

yes but by making queens u have an anti counter to both ground + air builds now, queens are tanky units so u can have them absorb all the zealot shots while surrounding them with ur lings, also by having that many queens zerg's can start creep spreading insanely fast aswell, engaging on creep is suicide =/

Essentially this is good then, maybe zergs were supposed to build more queens prior to this patch, and we can take this as a metagame shift, rather than "so because Queens have 5 Range GtG->Zerg Makes more Queens->More Queens beat Stargate->Stargate not viable/Less viable.

Spiders

United States86 Posts

May 11 2012 23:00 GMT

#57

It feels like I can't stop zerg creep spread now but it doesn't really matter because 1 rax fe double gas builds with a fast third and double ebays are just wayy to fucking strong right now. I macro terribly because this is my first season as terran but I still end up with too much 2/2 or 3/3 marines medivacs and tanks for zerg to handle at like 14 mins in.

edit: Top 25 masters atm

Jermstuddog

United States2231 Posts

May 11 2012 23:01 GMT

#58

As a Zerg player, I have noted that basically nothing has changed with my ovies, they are generally just where I want them to be a little bit faster, but I don't use them any differently since the change.

Queens are nicer, but again, I use them the same way. They are a bit better at zoning in ZvT and significantly better at denying scouts to my main. Both welcome changes, but not of huge impact really.

All in all, I would call both changes "quality of life" changes. I don't gain any new crazy functions or utilities, but using the units in the same way I am already using them generally gives me better results.

Resistentialism

Canada688 Posts

May 11 2012 23:01 GMT

#59

The one thing that queens can't deal with compared to roaches now in the early game is guardian shield. 4x2 queen attacks become (4- 2 [guardian] - 1 [armour])x2, That's two damage per attack for 100 hp per zealot.

Sadly the queen range really makes +1 zealot a lot easier to hold which makes the protoss a lot more predictable, since it's the only effective pressure with a funky early timing. Everything else comes out at (very) roughly the same time.

Theovide

Sweden914 Posts

May 11 2012 23:01 GMT

#60

On May 12 2012 07:45 babbaj wrote:

Show nested quote +

So, you want to sit and fatten your ass the first 10 minutes of departure, without attacking, without pressure or anything like that ... and supposedly have everything from head to win.

Sorry if I exaggerate, but to pretend to equal or exceed a Zerg economically without doing nothing seems a little stupid. The main advantage of the Zerg race is oriented economy and macro.

Way to totally take a qoute out of context and then argue against it o.O. He said that because of the queen buff harass is not (as) viable any more, and then followed up with that protoss has to do harass, thus he implies that protoss now are up in ZvP. Your post had nothing to do with that.