EPTTalking Balance with David Kim - Page 44
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
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PureBalls
Austria383 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:17 IMoperator wrote: The easiest solution (imo) would be to increase the micro needed for toss armies in the lategame. 3 of the core lategame units for toss require NO micro (zealots, colossus, archons) and the ones that do need micro are spellcasters (templar, sentry) Spellcasting is probably the easiest micro one can do, because with smart casting it's basically just t-click t-click t-click on the terran army. Making something like charge manual cast would help a lot. Colossi as well as archons require micro, its just that an untrained eye doesnt see it in a game. The micro of these units isnt as obvious as stutter step. | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:12 A-BomB wrote: also a maxed out mech army rapes lategame,vs a protoss and we dont say its imba You are either trolling, or playing another game. But seriously. I DEMAND you provide a single replay of the last month in which MECH army rapes toss lategame. I DEMAND it. If you can't do it, i call your words bullshit. Or you are bronze league. | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:25 PureBalls wrote: Colossi as well as archons require micro, its just that an untrained eye doesnt see it in a game BULLSHIT. The micro required for colossi is just point where the larger ball of stuff is. Same for archon. It's not at all apm intensive and is the same as siege tanks shooting larger clumps of banes. If you call that micro, yeah. On second thought, tosses seem to call everything micro nowadays. Good for you sir. | ||
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PureBalls
Austria383 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:34 sieksdekciw wrote: BULLSHIT. The micro required for colossi is just point where the larger ball of stuff is. Same for archon. It's not at all apm intensive and is the same as siege tanks shooting larger clumps of banes. If you call that micro, yeah. On second thought, tosses seem to call everything micro nowadays. Good for you sir. In addition to blink stalkers, forcefields and storm its much more micro than a terran has to do. | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:40 PureBalls wrote: In addition to blink stalkers, forcefields and storm its much more micro than a terran has to do. No. It is much less. Besides, forcefields and storm require 3 apm, so does a manual all blink which is used from tosses to kill out of line vikings. Stutter stim, split emp focus with vikings, dodge storms is ten times harder. If you haven't realized that, the patch will pwn you. | ||
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PureBalls
Austria383 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:47 sieksdekciw wrote: No. It is much less. Besides, forcefields and storm require 3 apm, so does a manual all blink which is used from tosses to kill out of line vikings. Stutter stim, split emp focus with vikings, dodge storms is ten times harder. If you haven't realized that, the patch will pwn you. Stutter step is like the easiest micro in the game. Even Code S terrans hardly ever focus with vikings. And EMPs are easier to cast than good storms. Protoss micro is much, much harder than terran micro. User was warned for this post | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:12 A-BomB wrote: lol so many people are just looking at it so wrong,first of all if your not gm you shouldnt worry about balance because it doesnt affect you at all,in every situation where you lost and blame balance think "could a better player have won this game" and if yes...then STFU about balance and worry about getting better,also a maxed out mech army rapes lategame,vs a protoss and we dont say its imba we say try to abuse the mobility,atack where he is not and expand more blah blah blah,why cant terrans have this mind set if going bio vs protoss instead of just giving out like little girls,also im not gona get started on the fact that lategame when a terran goes mass orbitals gets 20 ghosts 20 vikings and 10 medivacs with rest of supply merauders, there's literals nothing you can do as protoss because terran has 150-160 in army supply while you have to stay at 75 probes,and yes you can build 40 gateways,and remax after the fight but terran loses so little in the fight it doesnt matter The number of times this argument has been used is nearing infinity. GM-players and above are the only ones that are even close to be affected by "imbalance" Still, what you say is not relevant for lower league terrans. People use the term imbalance without defining what they mean with it. From a game theoretical point of view the game is balanced. Why? If one race is significantly stronger than the others you just go and pick that race. There you have your balance. Now, what matters for lower league players like me is that the game is fair. If I loose a game I want to have the feeling that the opponent was actually more skilled than me, assuming I didn't make any huge mistakes. Me and a lot of other terrans feel that this is not the case. A lot of losses vs protoss just gives you the feeling that any gold league player could have taken over once the protoss deathball was good enough and still win. That is why you get a lot of "whine" from casual level terrans these days. Also, fairness and balance doesn't exclude each other. And by fairness you have to mean relative fairness. It shouldn't be significantly easier to control the protoss army in the lategame than controlling the terran army is. The #1 reason to why this situation exists is that we have herp-derp protoss units that do "terrible terrible damage" with relatively little micro needed. Even progamer level protosses has said this. If you don't preemptively have the right amounts of vikings and get good emps off you will just loose no matter what. My suggestion to the balance team would be to make protoss benefit more from micro while reducing their damage. Also I would look into the feedback spell. Is it reasonable that one spell costing 50 energy practically shuts down high level mech and or air play? After all, Blizzard sells a lot of game copies and I take it that they will sell a lot less if the game is unfair. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:25 PureBalls wrote: Colossi as well as archons require micro, its just that an untrained eye doesnt see it in a game. The micro of these units isnt as obvious as stutter step. This is simply not true. | ||
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AlexanderDebois
Kyrgyzstan38 Posts
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PureBalls
Austria383 Posts
Well why is Parting so good? If protoss doesnt require micro, how is it possible that someone like parting is so much better in a certain MU than all the other protoss players? If there is no micro, than all protoss who can macro sufficiently well, and make similarly good decisions should be equally good, no? | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote: Stutter step is like the easiest micro in the game. Even Code S terrans hardly ever focus with vikings. And EMPs are easier to cast than good storms. Protoss micro is much, much harder than terran micro. You are just trolling, no purpose speaking with you. Stutter step and splitting is far harder than placing good storms. Especially if zealots JUST PWN everything on a move. Protoss micro is much much easier (cause it barely exists) than terran micro. Admit it! ADMIT IT. | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On April 29 2012 05:01 PureBalls wrote: Well why is Parting so good? If protoss doesnt require micro, how is it possible that someone like parting is so much better in a certain MU than all the other protoss players? If there is no micro, than all protoss who can macro sufficiently well, and make similarly good decisions should be equally good, no? Parting is that good in that matchup cause he abuses the imbalance of toss to the max. While other tosses will have their templars tagging along their army, parting will sprinkle a templar here and there and when he notices on the minimap a blotch of units, he will storm it. SO hard. Magnificent micro. We are all in awe. Stop trying to sell the idea toss has to do something special to win vs terran of equal skill level. Nobody' s buying it. | ||
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RUS RO DAH!!!
United States277 Posts
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PureBalls
Austria383 Posts
On April 29 2012 05:02 sieksdekciw wrote: You are just trolling, no purpose speaking with you. Stutter step and splitting is far harder than placing good storms. Especially if zealots JUST PWN everything on a move. Protoss micro is much much easier (cause it barely exists) than terran micro. Admit it! ADMIT IT. Terran micro is harder before twilight tech (blink, storm...) kicks in, because protoss only has to cast FF, activate GS and make sure zealots are in front. After blink and storm kick in, protoss micro is harder than terran micro. The thing is, most terran micro is based around clicking fast with no regard for precision. On the other hand, most protoss micro is ALL ABOUT precision. One missed FF can cost you the game. One missed storm can cost you the game. Awesome blink of individual stalkers can save almost all of your stalkers, while dishing out great damage. It comes down to this: terran micro (especially stutter step) is like shooting a gun as fast as you can while not having to hit anything, which is eeeeeeeeeaaaasy. Protoss micro is shooting with the same gun, not as fast, but hitting bullseye 5 times in a row. | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On April 29 2012 05:08 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote: Instead of whining about Toss late game why don't Terrans start incorporating T3 units into their own army composition. Of course you're going to lose if you fight colossus, archon, high templar with MMM and a sprinkle of ghosts here and there. Maybe terran can get thors, ravens and battlecruisers in addition to their MMM. You know fight T3 with T3. ALL of the units you mention, are countered by a single toss unit. Templar. It's useless to speak to you if you think T3 and T2 terran units can perform good against toss. Why don't you try it if you think it is feasible. I am looking forward to the replays. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 29 2012 05:01 PureBalls wrote: Well why is Parting so good? If protoss doesnt require micro, how is it possible that someone like parting is so much better in a certain MU than all the other protoss players? If there is no micro, than all protoss who can macro sufficiently well, and make similarly good decisions should be equally good, no? Parting is good because he's one of the first Protoss to stop forcing 2 base warp gate all ins when every Terran expects that coming by now. Instead he takes a quick 3rd and abuses WG and Chronoboost. He sits on the minimal army required, relying on FF to skimp heavily on army resource. Chrono out probes, when you see an attack and you are caught off guard, chrono gates. EZ. It has nothing to do with micro, that's laughable. A silver toss has the same "colossus micro" as a GM. Don't spread this crap. | ||
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
On April 29 2012 05:02 sieksdekciw wrote: You are just trolling, no purpose speaking with you. Stutter step and splitting is far harder than placing good storms. Especially if zealots JUST PWN everything on a move. Protoss micro is much much easier (cause it barely exists) than terran micro. Admit it! ADMIT IT. Splitting, sure. But stutter step? Are you serious? | ||
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RUS RO DAH!!!
United States277 Posts
On April 29 2012 05:10 sieksdekciw wrote: ALL of the units you mention, are countered by a single toss unit. Templar. It's useless to speak to you if you think T3 and T2 terran units can perform good against toss. Why don't you try it if you think it is feasible. I am looking forward to the replays. Get a few ghosts to EMP templars before they can feedback, then proceed to roll toss. | ||
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teamhozac
404 Posts
On April 29 2012 04:49 PureBalls wrote: Stutter step is like the easiest micro in the game. Even Code S terrans hardly ever focus with vikings. And EMPs are easier to cast than good storms. Protoss micro is much, much harder than terran micro. My APM is around 250-300 when stutter stepping so yeah, youre wrong. Your name should be PureBias instead of PureBalls | ||
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