• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 14:33
CET 20:33
KST 04:33
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-1816Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises2Weekly Cups (Dec 15-21): Classic wins big, MaxPax & Clem take weeklies3ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !11Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4
StarCraft 2
General
SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Starcraft 2 Zerg Coach ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !
Tourneys
OSC Season 13 World Championship WardiTV Mondays $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play
Brood War
General
I would like to say something about StarCraft A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ (UMS) SWITCHEROO *New* /Destination Edit/ What monitor do you use for playing Remastered?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET SLON Grand Finals – Season 2 [BSL21] LB SemiFinals - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
[G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Mechabellum
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI 12 Days of Starcraft
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Ghostwriting Services for Authors and Businesses The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced
Blogs
National Diversity: A Challe…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1095 users

Talking Balance with David Kim - Page 42

Forum Index > SC2 General
1416 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 40 41 42 43 44 71 Next
Naphal
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany2099 Posts
April 28 2012 16:32 GMT
#821
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.
zezamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland5701 Posts
April 28 2012 16:39 GMT
#822
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.


There's 5 protoss in ro8. I'm pretty sure we will have 4 protoss in ro4.
bbQ4Aiur
Profile Joined March 2011
Hong Kong2752 Posts
April 28 2012 16:39 GMT
#823
On April 29 2012 01:32 Horseballs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


But why does the low-level terran deserve to lose and at the same time the low-level protoss deserves to win?

They dont, they lose to stim-timing like 90% of the time. Low league protoss do not usually have the macro/micro ability to get to late game.
bbQ4Aiur
Profile Joined March 2011
Hong Kong2752 Posts
April 28 2012 16:43 GMT
#824
On April 29 2012 01:39 zezamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.


There's 5 protoss in ro8. I'm pretty sure we will have 4 protoss in ro4.

one of them is PvP so its 6 for 3 slots we are talking about here.
Mvp will advance imo.
Hero/supernova is a tough call.
If Squirtle does as well as he did in IPL4, he may advance.

But this explains nothing about the balance.
zezamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland5701 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-28 16:50:45
April 28 2012 16:46 GMT
#825
On April 29 2012 01:43 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
But this explains nothing about the balance.


So GomTvT earlier had nothing to do with balance and terran players were just more skilled ?

bbQ4Aiur
Profile Joined March 2011
Hong Kong2752 Posts
April 28 2012 16:50 GMT
#826
On April 29 2012 01:46 zezamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 01:43 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
But this explains nothing about the balance.


So GomTvT earlier had nothing to do with balance and terran players were just more skilled ?

GomTvT occurs in Ro8, and even in Ro16 there are more terrans than Z + P at the time.
And is it GomPvP now? no. Will Ro4 be PvP time? not likely.
tomatriedes
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
New Zealand5356 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-28 16:54:04
April 28 2012 16:52 GMT
#827
On April 29 2012 01:39 zezamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.


There's 5 protoss in ro8. I'm pretty sure we will have 4 protoss in ro4.


Those protoss players have been playing well and deserve their places and last month terran still had a 60-40% win rate over toss at pro level in Korea. Not to mention, almost every other tournament recently has been won by terrans (Dreamhack, previous 2 MLGs, IPL4, Asus, The Gathering etc.) And foreign terrans aren't even looking that bad recently- they took 1st, 2nd and third place at the Gathering (Lucifron, Bratok and Thorzain) and Thorzain won Dreamhack and TvP was 56-44% at international pro level last month. If protoss or zerg could do as well in tournaments as terran their respective fans would be overjoyed. Terran fans have a ridiculous sense of entitlement. Even when they're winning almost everything they do nothing but whine.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 28 2012 17:06 GMT
#828
On April 29 2012 01:32 Naphal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.


Sorry, I'm all for more microability and equality of microquality, but just increasing the microability of Protoss units will simply make Protoss stronger, just making it so that you need to micro more for certain things that are now done automatically - f.e. the ever so popular arguement of manually charging zealots - will just straigth up nerf Protoss, especially on prolevel where the players already go to their current limits of control and multitasking.
It's a very fine line you have to walk to make something more microintense, yet neither break it when controlled perfectly, nor just nerf it.

Also on a side note, it's also not just the Protoss design's fault that there is not much a Protoss can actively do to greatly increase the outcome of a PvT battle, the ability to run away with faster, equal or higher ranged units (when stimmed) of Terran simply counteracts many forms of interaction the Protoss could try.
JitnikoVi
Profile Joined May 2010
Russian Federation396 Posts
April 28 2012 17:09 GMT
#829
On April 27 2012 10:24 spatz wrote:
give me that zerg buff


err wat? with the stephano build if ur left untouched for 12minutes you essentially win the game...
i dont consider zerg needing a buff.. but instead more common sense to scout and realise pressure will be put soon
In theory yes, but theoretically, no.
teamhozac
Profile Joined April 2012
404 Posts
April 28 2012 17:12 GMT
#830
On April 29 2012 00:42 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 00:38 teamhozac wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:17 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:13 teamhozac wrote:
On April 28 2012 23:54 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Whine more Terran.
Win rate of TvP in GSL after Patch 1.4.3.
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=1.4.3&mapid=0
Like the GSL caster Mr. Chae once said in a pre-game show, i quote "Terran cried Protoss imba imba, but terran wins"
We all get it protoss has a stronger late game, and terran has a stronger mid game. Now Terran want to dominate mid to late game? No.


Keep using the GSL to look at balance for AN ENTIRE FUCKING COMMUNITY, and you will keep making yourself look like an unintelligent, biased poster

lmao, so what should i look at ? gold leaguers records?
Show me a statistics which said PvT is not within 45-55% please. Or even better, show me a record with PvT > 50%.


The statistics dont exist, because blizzard doesnt release them, youre a real genius arent you?

EDIT: PvT on Cloud Kingdom 70% there you go

What did they release on Page 1 then? Blizzard said the current PvT is within the acceptable zone.
And now TvZ metalopolis 37%, how about nerfing Zerg?
You only sees what you wanna see, do u?


You ask me for an example of when protoss is favored on ladder, I give one to you, and then you say something about zerg? you must be a politician
teamhozac
Profile Joined April 2012
404 Posts
April 28 2012 17:23 GMT
#831
On April 29 2012 02:06 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 01:32 Naphal wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.


Sorry, I'm all for more microability and equality of microquality, but just increasing the microability of Protoss units will simply make Protoss stronger, just making it so that you need to micro more for certain things that are now done automatically - f.e. the ever so popular arguement of manually charging zealots - will just straigth up nerf Protoss, especially on prolevel where the players already go to their current limits of control and multitasking.
It's a very fine line you have to walk to make something more microintense, yet neither break it when controlled perfectly, nor just nerf it.

Also on a side note, it's also not just the Protoss design's fault that there is not much a Protoss can actively do to greatly increase the outcome of a PvT battle, the ability to run away with faster, equal or higher ranged units (when stimmed) of Terran simply counteracts many forms of interaction the Protoss could try.


Not necessarily, something like making protoss actually micro chargelots would make them micro more while not making them overpowered
teamhozac
Profile Joined April 2012
404 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-28 17:28:01
April 28 2012 17:26 GMT
#832
On April 29 2012 01:43 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 01:39 zezamer wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.


There's 5 protoss in ro8. I'm pretty sure we will have 4 protoss in ro4.

one of them is PvP so its 6 for 3 slots we are talking about here.
Mvp will advance imo.
Hero/supernova is a tough call.
If Squirtle does as well as he did in IPL4, he may advance.

But this explains nothing about the balance.


Wait a minute wait a minute... The guy quoting the GSL as balance earlier is now saying the number of Protoss IN THE GSL has nothing to do with balance? WOW

Whine more Terran.
Win rate of TvP in GSL after Patch 1.4.3.
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=1.4.3&mapid=0
Like the GSL caster Mr. Chae once said in a pre-game show, i quote "Terran cried Protoss imba imba, but terran wins"
We all get it protoss has a stronger late game, and terran has a stronger mid game. Now Terran want to dominate mid to late game? No.


youre something else buddy
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 28 2012 18:00 GMT
#833
On April 29 2012 02:23 teamhozac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 02:06 Big J wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:32 Naphal wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.


Sorry, I'm all for more microability and equality of microquality, but just increasing the microability of Protoss units will simply make Protoss stronger, just making it so that you need to micro more for certain things that are now done automatically - f.e. the ever so popular arguement of manually charging zealots - will just straigth up nerf Protoss, especially on prolevel where the players already go to their current limits of control and multitasking.
It's a very fine line you have to walk to make something more microintense, yet neither break it when controlled perfectly, nor just nerf it.

Also on a side note, it's also not just the Protoss design's fault that there is not much a Protoss can actively do to greatly increase the outcome of a PvT battle, the ability to run away with faster, equal or higher ranged units (when stimmed) of Terran simply counteracts many forms of interaction the Protoss could try.


Not necessarily, something like making protoss actually micro chargelots would make them micro more while not making them overpowered


it would make pro protoss players pay more attention to zealots and therefore there is less left for other activities --> they perform weaker --> straight up nerf to protoss in a balanced state of the game on prolevel.
zezamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland5701 Posts
April 28 2012 18:07 GMT
#834
On April 29 2012 03:00 Big J wrote:
it would make pro protoss players pay more attention to zealots and therefore there is less left for other activities --> they perform weaker --> straight up nerf to protoss in a balanced state of the game on prolevel.

=make the game harder is what we all want
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-28 18:14:03
April 28 2012 18:13 GMT
#835
On April 29 2012 03:07 zezamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 03:00 Big J wrote:
it would make pro protoss players pay more attention to zealots and therefore there is less left for other activities --> they perform weaker --> straight up nerf to protoss in a balanced state of the game on prolevel.

=make the game harder is what we all want

No, we don't want the game to be harder, we want the game to be more beneficial for the player that actively controls his units.

Making charge manual control without buffing it does not make it more beneficial to control zealots, only less beneficial to not control them.
A player like Hero who plays with equal APM and multitasking as an high level Terran opponent right now, will simply perform worse after such a change, because he will have to cut actions he can perform right now while his zealots charge, to make his zealots charge.
SolidMoose
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1240 Posts
April 28 2012 18:13 GMT
#836
On April 29 2012 03:00 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 02:23 teamhozac wrote:
On April 29 2012 02:06 Big J wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:32 Naphal wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.


Sorry, I'm all for more microability and equality of microquality, but just increasing the microability of Protoss units will simply make Protoss stronger, just making it so that you need to micro more for certain things that are now done automatically - f.e. the ever so popular arguement of manually charging zealots - will just straigth up nerf Protoss, especially on prolevel where the players already go to their current limits of control and multitasking.
It's a very fine line you have to walk to make something more microintense, yet neither break it when controlled perfectly, nor just nerf it.

Also on a side note, it's also not just the Protoss design's fault that there is not much a Protoss can actively do to greatly increase the outcome of a PvT battle, the ability to run away with faster, equal or higher ranged units (when stimmed) of Terran simply counteracts many forms of interaction the Protoss could try.


Not necessarily, something like making protoss actually micro chargelots would make them micro more while not making them overpowered


it would make pro protoss players pay more attention to zealots and therefore there is less left for other activities --> they perform weaker --> straight up nerf to protoss in a balanced state of the game on prolevel.


You're actually arguing AGAINST more micro? Terran players would also have more time to do "other activities" if they didn't have to micro so much, but somehow they get by. Protoss can do it too.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-28 18:16:39
April 28 2012 18:15 GMT
#837
On April 29 2012 03:13 SolidMoose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 03:00 Big J wrote:
On April 29 2012 02:23 teamhozac wrote:
On April 29 2012 02:06 Big J wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:32 Naphal wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.


Sorry, I'm all for more microability and equality of microquality, but just increasing the microability of Protoss units will simply make Protoss stronger, just making it so that you need to micro more for certain things that are now done automatically - f.e. the ever so popular arguement of manually charging zealots - will just straigth up nerf Protoss, especially on prolevel where the players already go to their current limits of control and multitasking.
It's a very fine line you have to walk to make something more microintense, yet neither break it when controlled perfectly, nor just nerf it.

Also on a side note, it's also not just the Protoss design's fault that there is not much a Protoss can actively do to greatly increase the outcome of a PvT battle, the ability to run away with faster, equal or higher ranged units (when stimmed) of Terran simply counteracts many forms of interaction the Protoss could try.


Not necessarily, something like making protoss actually micro chargelots would make them micro more while not making them overpowered


it would make pro protoss players pay more attention to zealots and therefore there is less left for other activities --> they perform weaker --> straight up nerf to protoss in a balanced state of the game on prolevel.


You're actually arguing AGAINST more micro? Terran players would also have more time to do "other activities" if they didn't have to micro so much, but somehow they get by. Protoss can do it too.


No, I'm arguing that you can't just make charge go to manual control, you would also have to add something like a "+damage when charge hits"-effect, if you don't want such a change to be a straight up nerf to highlevel Protoss players.

If you make control harder, it also has to become more beneficial, else you are interferring with balance, not just with control.
Bidj
Profile Joined September 2010
France98 Posts
April 28 2012 18:23 GMT
#838
On April 29 2012 03:15 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 03:13 SolidMoose wrote:
On April 29 2012 03:00 Big J wrote:
On April 29 2012 02:23 teamhozac wrote:
On April 29 2012 02:06 Big J wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:32 Naphal wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.


Sorry, I'm all for more microability and equality of microquality, but just increasing the microability of Protoss units will simply make Protoss stronger, just making it so that you need to micro more for certain things that are now done automatically - f.e. the ever so popular arguement of manually charging zealots - will just straigth up nerf Protoss, especially on prolevel where the players already go to their current limits of control and multitasking.
It's a very fine line you have to walk to make something more microintense, yet neither break it when controlled perfectly, nor just nerf it.

Also on a side note, it's also not just the Protoss design's fault that there is not much a Protoss can actively do to greatly increase the outcome of a PvT battle, the ability to run away with faster, equal or higher ranged units (when stimmed) of Terran simply counteracts many forms of interaction the Protoss could try.


Not necessarily, something like making protoss actually micro chargelots would make them micro more while not making them overpowered


it would make pro protoss players pay more attention to zealots and therefore there is less left for other activities --> they perform weaker --> straight up nerf to protoss in a balanced state of the game on prolevel.


You're actually arguing AGAINST more micro? Terran players would also have more time to do "other activities" if they didn't have to micro so much, but somehow they get by. Protoss can do it too.


No, I'm arguing that you can't just make charge go to manual control, you would also have to add something like a "+damage when charge hits"-effect, if you don't want such a change to be a straight up nerf to highlevel Protoss players.

If you make control harder, it also has to become more beneficial, else you are interferring with balance, not just with control.


Not necessarily true at all. The "nerf" effect could be near to non existent at top level (less than 0.001% for e.g.) and still make the race harder to micro / more fair at lower level.
Rooooaaaar
Scufo
Profile Joined October 2010
United States136 Posts
April 28 2012 18:24 GMT
#839
A-move Protoss is stronger than a-move Terran...that's just a fact. Everything is fine at the super high level where both players are microing their hearts out, but below Grandmasters TvP is just frustrating. Because unless you micro perfectly, that chargelot/colossus/HT/archon deathball will flatten everything you have in seconds.

I think Terran needs more options for unit composition. It's silly that no factory units are viable. That's where all of Terran's muscle units are, and we bloody need them to compete against the deathball.
PureBalls
Profile Joined January 2012
Austria383 Posts
April 28 2012 18:26 GMT
#840
On April 28 2012 21:51 Recognizable wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2012 21:47 PureBalls wrote:
On April 28 2012 21:45 teamhozac wrote:
On April 28 2012 21:41 Wingblade wrote:
On April 28 2012 21:30 SKYFISH_ wrote:
On April 28 2012 21:21 Wingblade wrote:
On April 28 2012 17:11 Scila wrote:
On April 27 2012 21:11 -Kira wrote:
On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote:
Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.


let it cook a little, untill terrans figure it out just like toss had to


Yeah Protoss had to figure out so much man. Terrans use Thors - Thors nerfed. Terrans use BFH - blue flame nerfed. Terrans use 2 rax - 2 rax nerfed. Protoss don't use Warp Prism, Blizzard buffs Warp Prism and Protoss start to use it. Yeah man, you sure had to figure a lot of things out.

There's nothing to figure out. Terran higher tech units (Tanks, Thors, Ravens, BCs) are horrible against Protoss, and not good enough against Zerg. That's why Terrans are sticking to MMM all game long.


But isn't the main issue of TvP "difficulty" the power of lategame Protoss AoE and mass chargelot warpins? Those things have always been around. The Protoss AoE has not been patched in almost a year, and nothing has changed regarding warpins. The main things that give Terran trouble have always been around. We learned how to utilize them, now it is your turn.


No, you didnt learn to utilize anything, maps just became bigger while Blizzard kept nerfing Terran early game which means they cant end the game off one base anymore.

People have been bitching about Protoss AOE since the game was released and Blizzard refuse to address the issue.
So T players are stuck with MMM, like it or not.
I personally dont mind, but shit got stale fast for many people so they either stopped playing or switched races.

Ultimately its Blizz's loss though



1-1-1 got nerfed? You can still win in the midgame, and you have a comfortable advantage there before lots of AoE gets out. Maybe there has been no adjusting of AoE because Blizzard doesnt think there should be. If you think your a brilliant balance designer than you should apply at blizzard, I'm sure you know so much more than all of their paid designers right now.


Having larger maps makes 1-1-1 basically useless. For once Blizzard actually let the metagame (sort of) develop, although you guys did get an immortal range buff out of it. But like I said before, the HUGE rush distances basically make 1-1-1 an extinct strategy

That is a good thing.


No it's not. Terran has no viable all ins which allows protoss to be extremely greedy. On the other hand, all Terrans now how powerfull Protoss all ins are...

There are no one base protoss all ins. There should not be any for terran either.
Prev 1 40 41 42 43 44 71 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 17h 27m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 545
BRAT_OK 132
trigger 94
ProTech54
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 24325
Shuttle 580
Jaedong 382
Dewaltoss 114
Bonyth 84
Shine 7
Dota 2
qojqva4071
febbydoto10
League of Legends
C9.Mang0230
Counter-Strike
fl0m1450
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu458
Khaldor195
Other Games
Grubby5298
FrodaN2953
Gorgc2771
DeMusliM726
mouzStarbuck529
B2W.Neo407
Pyrionflax78
NarutO 37
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 66
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• naamasc246
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 13
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie2801
• Shiphtur298
Upcoming Events
OSC
17h 27m
Korean StarCraft League
1d 7h
OSC
1d 16h
IPSL
1d 18h
Dewalt vs Bonyth
OSC
1d 22h
OSC
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Patches Events
4 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

C-Race Season 1
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9

Ongoing

IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W2
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
Escore Tournament S1: W3
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Thunderfire SC2 All-star 2025
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
Underdog Cup #3
NA Kuram Kup
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.