• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:48
CEST 13:48
KST 20:48
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
GSTL Returns in 2026!39Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-611
StarCraft 2
General
GSTL Returns in 2026! Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement! Protoss AoE skill expression Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Announcement Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 538 Media Blackout The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch
Brood War
General
Best Games Kespa era BW General Discussion Your past clans ASL22 General Discussion Looking for old Team Micro Arena(TMA) Teammates
Tourneys
CSLAN 4 is Coming! Small VOD Thread 2.0 Escore Tournament - Season 3 BSL LAN Party - Kraków 29-30 August - OPEN SIGNUPS
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
MLB/Baseball 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Chinese Gen Z: Between Dream…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7095 users

Talking Balance with David Kim - Page 42

Forum Index > SC2 General
1416 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 40 41 42 43 44 71 Next
Naphal
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany2099 Posts
April 28 2012 16:32 GMT
#821
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.
zezamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland5701 Posts
April 28 2012 16:39 GMT
#822
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.


There's 5 protoss in ro8. I'm pretty sure we will have 4 protoss in ro4.
bbQ4Aiur
Profile Joined March 2011
Hong Kong2752 Posts
April 28 2012 16:39 GMT
#823
On April 29 2012 01:32 Horseballs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


But why does the low-level terran deserve to lose and at the same time the low-level protoss deserves to win?

They dont, they lose to stim-timing like 90% of the time. Low league protoss do not usually have the macro/micro ability to get to late game.
bbQ4Aiur
Profile Joined March 2011
Hong Kong2752 Posts
April 28 2012 16:43 GMT
#824
On April 29 2012 01:39 zezamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.


There's 5 protoss in ro8. I'm pretty sure we will have 4 protoss in ro4.

one of them is PvP so its 6 for 3 slots we are talking about here.
Mvp will advance imo.
Hero/supernova is a tough call.
If Squirtle does as well as he did in IPL4, he may advance.

But this explains nothing about the balance.
zezamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland5701 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-28 16:50:45
April 28 2012 16:46 GMT
#825
On April 29 2012 01:43 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
But this explains nothing about the balance.


So GomTvT earlier had nothing to do with balance and terran players were just more skilled ?

bbQ4Aiur
Profile Joined March 2011
Hong Kong2752 Posts
April 28 2012 16:50 GMT
#826
On April 29 2012 01:46 zezamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 01:43 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
But this explains nothing about the balance.


So GomTvT earlier had nothing to do with balance and terran players were just more skilled ?

GomTvT occurs in Ro8, and even in Ro16 there are more terrans than Z + P at the time.
And is it GomPvP now? no. Will Ro4 be PvP time? not likely.
tomatriedes
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
New Zealand5356 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-28 16:54:04
April 28 2012 16:52 GMT
#827
On April 29 2012 01:39 zezamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.


There's 5 protoss in ro8. I'm pretty sure we will have 4 protoss in ro4.


Those protoss players have been playing well and deserve their places and last month terran still had a 60-40% win rate over toss at pro level in Korea. Not to mention, almost every other tournament recently has been won by terrans (Dreamhack, previous 2 MLGs, IPL4, Asus, The Gathering etc.) And foreign terrans aren't even looking that bad recently- they took 1st, 2nd and third place at the Gathering (Lucifron, Bratok and Thorzain) and Thorzain won Dreamhack and TvP was 56-44% at international pro level last month. If protoss or zerg could do as well in tournaments as terran their respective fans would be overjoyed. Terran fans have a ridiculous sense of entitlement. Even when they're winning almost everything they do nothing but whine.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 28 2012 17:06 GMT
#828
On April 29 2012 01:32 Naphal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.


Sorry, I'm all for more microability and equality of microquality, but just increasing the microability of Protoss units will simply make Protoss stronger, just making it so that you need to micro more for certain things that are now done automatically - f.e. the ever so popular arguement of manually charging zealots - will just straigth up nerf Protoss, especially on prolevel where the players already go to their current limits of control and multitasking.
It's a very fine line you have to walk to make something more microintense, yet neither break it when controlled perfectly, nor just nerf it.

Also on a side note, it's also not just the Protoss design's fault that there is not much a Protoss can actively do to greatly increase the outcome of a PvT battle, the ability to run away with faster, equal or higher ranged units (when stimmed) of Terran simply counteracts many forms of interaction the Protoss could try.
JitnikoVi
Profile Joined May 2010
Russian Federation396 Posts
April 28 2012 17:09 GMT
#829
On April 27 2012 10:24 spatz wrote:
give me that zerg buff


err wat? with the stephano build if ur left untouched for 12minutes you essentially win the game...
i dont consider zerg needing a buff.. but instead more common sense to scout and realise pressure will be put soon
In theory yes, but theoretically, no.
teamhozac
Profile Joined April 2012
404 Posts
April 28 2012 17:12 GMT
#830
On April 29 2012 00:42 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 00:38 teamhozac wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:17 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:13 teamhozac wrote:
On April 28 2012 23:54 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Whine more Terran.
Win rate of TvP in GSL after Patch 1.4.3.
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=1.4.3&mapid=0
Like the GSL caster Mr. Chae once said in a pre-game show, i quote "Terran cried Protoss imba imba, but terran wins"
We all get it protoss has a stronger late game, and terran has a stronger mid game. Now Terran want to dominate mid to late game? No.


Keep using the GSL to look at balance for AN ENTIRE FUCKING COMMUNITY, and you will keep making yourself look like an unintelligent, biased poster

lmao, so what should i look at ? gold leaguers records?
Show me a statistics which said PvT is not within 45-55% please. Or even better, show me a record with PvT > 50%.


The statistics dont exist, because blizzard doesnt release them, youre a real genius arent you?

EDIT: PvT on Cloud Kingdom 70% there you go

What did they release on Page 1 then? Blizzard said the current PvT is within the acceptable zone.
And now TvZ metalopolis 37%, how about nerfing Zerg?
You only sees what you wanna see, do u?


You ask me for an example of when protoss is favored on ladder, I give one to you, and then you say something about zerg? you must be a politician
teamhozac
Profile Joined April 2012
404 Posts
April 28 2012 17:23 GMT
#831
On April 29 2012 02:06 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 01:32 Naphal wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.


Sorry, I'm all for more microability and equality of microquality, but just increasing the microability of Protoss units will simply make Protoss stronger, just making it so that you need to micro more for certain things that are now done automatically - f.e. the ever so popular arguement of manually charging zealots - will just straigth up nerf Protoss, especially on prolevel where the players already go to their current limits of control and multitasking.
It's a very fine line you have to walk to make something more microintense, yet neither break it when controlled perfectly, nor just nerf it.

Also on a side note, it's also not just the Protoss design's fault that there is not much a Protoss can actively do to greatly increase the outcome of a PvT battle, the ability to run away with faster, equal or higher ranged units (when stimmed) of Terran simply counteracts many forms of interaction the Protoss could try.


Not necessarily, something like making protoss actually micro chargelots would make them micro more while not making them overpowered
teamhozac
Profile Joined April 2012
404 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-28 17:28:01
April 28 2012 17:26 GMT
#832
On April 29 2012 01:43 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 01:39 zezamer wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.


There's 5 protoss in ro8. I'm pretty sure we will have 4 protoss in ro4.

one of them is PvP so its 6 for 3 slots we are talking about here.
Mvp will advance imo.
Hero/supernova is a tough call.
If Squirtle does as well as he did in IPL4, he may advance.

But this explains nothing about the balance.


Wait a minute wait a minute... The guy quoting the GSL as balance earlier is now saying the number of Protoss IN THE GSL has nothing to do with balance? WOW

Whine more Terran.
Win rate of TvP in GSL after Patch 1.4.3.
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=0&leaguetype=0&leagueid=0&gamever=1.4.3&mapid=0
Like the GSL caster Mr. Chae once said in a pre-game show, i quote "Terran cried Protoss imba imba, but terran wins"
We all get it protoss has a stronger late game, and terran has a stronger mid game. Now Terran want to dominate mid to late game? No.


youre something else buddy
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
April 28 2012 18:00 GMT
#833
On April 29 2012 02:23 teamhozac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 02:06 Big J wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:32 Naphal wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.


Sorry, I'm all for more microability and equality of microquality, but just increasing the microability of Protoss units will simply make Protoss stronger, just making it so that you need to micro more for certain things that are now done automatically - f.e. the ever so popular arguement of manually charging zealots - will just straigth up nerf Protoss, especially on prolevel where the players already go to their current limits of control and multitasking.
It's a very fine line you have to walk to make something more microintense, yet neither break it when controlled perfectly, nor just nerf it.

Also on a side note, it's also not just the Protoss design's fault that there is not much a Protoss can actively do to greatly increase the outcome of a PvT battle, the ability to run away with faster, equal or higher ranged units (when stimmed) of Terran simply counteracts many forms of interaction the Protoss could try.


Not necessarily, something like making protoss actually micro chargelots would make them micro more while not making them overpowered


it would make pro protoss players pay more attention to zealots and therefore there is less left for other activities --> they perform weaker --> straight up nerf to protoss in a balanced state of the game on prolevel.
zezamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland5701 Posts
April 28 2012 18:07 GMT
#834
On April 29 2012 03:00 Big J wrote:
it would make pro protoss players pay more attention to zealots and therefore there is less left for other activities --> they perform weaker --> straight up nerf to protoss in a balanced state of the game on prolevel.

=make the game harder is what we all want
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-28 18:14:03
April 28 2012 18:13 GMT
#835
On April 29 2012 03:07 zezamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 03:00 Big J wrote:
it would make pro protoss players pay more attention to zealots and therefore there is less left for other activities --> they perform weaker --> straight up nerf to protoss in a balanced state of the game on prolevel.

=make the game harder is what we all want

No, we don't want the game to be harder, we want the game to be more beneficial for the player that actively controls his units.

Making charge manual control without buffing it does not make it more beneficial to control zealots, only less beneficial to not control them.
A player like Hero who plays with equal APM and multitasking as an high level Terran opponent right now, will simply perform worse after such a change, because he will have to cut actions he can perform right now while his zealots charge, to make his zealots charge.
SolidMoose
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1240 Posts
April 28 2012 18:13 GMT
#836
On April 29 2012 03:00 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 02:23 teamhozac wrote:
On April 29 2012 02:06 Big J wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:32 Naphal wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.


Sorry, I'm all for more microability and equality of microquality, but just increasing the microability of Protoss units will simply make Protoss stronger, just making it so that you need to micro more for certain things that are now done automatically - f.e. the ever so popular arguement of manually charging zealots - will just straigth up nerf Protoss, especially on prolevel where the players already go to their current limits of control and multitasking.
It's a very fine line you have to walk to make something more microintense, yet neither break it when controlled perfectly, nor just nerf it.

Also on a side note, it's also not just the Protoss design's fault that there is not much a Protoss can actively do to greatly increase the outcome of a PvT battle, the ability to run away with faster, equal or higher ranged units (when stimmed) of Terran simply counteracts many forms of interaction the Protoss could try.


Not necessarily, something like making protoss actually micro chargelots would make them micro more while not making them overpowered


it would make pro protoss players pay more attention to zealots and therefore there is less left for other activities --> they perform weaker --> straight up nerf to protoss in a balanced state of the game on prolevel.


You're actually arguing AGAINST more micro? Terran players would also have more time to do "other activities" if they didn't have to micro so much, but somehow they get by. Protoss can do it too.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-28 18:16:39
April 28 2012 18:15 GMT
#837
On April 29 2012 03:13 SolidMoose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 03:00 Big J wrote:
On April 29 2012 02:23 teamhozac wrote:
On April 29 2012 02:06 Big J wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:32 Naphal wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.


Sorry, I'm all for more microability and equality of microquality, but just increasing the microability of Protoss units will simply make Protoss stronger, just making it so that you need to micro more for certain things that are now done automatically - f.e. the ever so popular arguement of manually charging zealots - will just straigth up nerf Protoss, especially on prolevel where the players already go to their current limits of control and multitasking.
It's a very fine line you have to walk to make something more microintense, yet neither break it when controlled perfectly, nor just nerf it.

Also on a side note, it's also not just the Protoss design's fault that there is not much a Protoss can actively do to greatly increase the outcome of a PvT battle, the ability to run away with faster, equal or higher ranged units (when stimmed) of Terran simply counteracts many forms of interaction the Protoss could try.


Not necessarily, something like making protoss actually micro chargelots would make them micro more while not making them overpowered


it would make pro protoss players pay more attention to zealots and therefore there is less left for other activities --> they perform weaker --> straight up nerf to protoss in a balanced state of the game on prolevel.


You're actually arguing AGAINST more micro? Terran players would also have more time to do "other activities" if they didn't have to micro so much, but somehow they get by. Protoss can do it too.


No, I'm arguing that you can't just make charge go to manual control, you would also have to add something like a "+damage when charge hits"-effect, if you don't want such a change to be a straight up nerf to highlevel Protoss players.

If you make control harder, it also has to become more beneficial, else you are interferring with balance, not just with control.
Bidj
Profile Joined September 2010
France98 Posts
April 28 2012 18:23 GMT
#838
On April 29 2012 03:15 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2012 03:13 SolidMoose wrote:
On April 29 2012 03:00 Big J wrote:
On April 29 2012 02:23 teamhozac wrote:
On April 29 2012 02:06 Big J wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:32 Naphal wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:27 densha wrote:
On April 29 2012 01:08 F1rstAssau1t wrote:
On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
You guys may think I am biased cause my main race is protoss. I actually play a bit of Terran.
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho.
For one, Korean pros can almost sees observers even tho they are cloaked. And everyone knows its easy to snipe obs with 1-2vikings or rines with scans. After sniping the obs, Ghosts are extremely potent units. Cloaking to cast emp/snipe and nuke on multiple prones can get terran ahead even in late late game PvT. But they are just underused.

So if im a Bronze, Silver, Gold or Platinum Terran and i cant even play the 10% that any Korean pro cuz im not playing the game 10 hours at day, i deserve to lose to the Protoss and their ridiculous late game?

Yeah you are biased son.


Yes, yes, and YES! You do deserve to lose if you're low level! You are allowed to have weaknesses! This game simply cannot afford to be balanced and catered toward low level ladder games. To suggest otherwise is lunacy. What matters is the tip-top of the pro level and that is all.


simply give protoss more micro, prolevel would looove it, and people who defend prolevel protoss would not argue in favor of "a-move-ladderjoe" protoss at the same time anymore, so hard to distinguish the real intention sometimes.


Sorry, I'm all for more microability and equality of microquality, but just increasing the microability of Protoss units will simply make Protoss stronger, just making it so that you need to micro more for certain things that are now done automatically - f.e. the ever so popular arguement of manually charging zealots - will just straigth up nerf Protoss, especially on prolevel where the players already go to their current limits of control and multitasking.
It's a very fine line you have to walk to make something more microintense, yet neither break it when controlled perfectly, nor just nerf it.

Also on a side note, it's also not just the Protoss design's fault that there is not much a Protoss can actively do to greatly increase the outcome of a PvT battle, the ability to run away with faster, equal or higher ranged units (when stimmed) of Terran simply counteracts many forms of interaction the Protoss could try.


Not necessarily, something like making protoss actually micro chargelots would make them micro more while not making them overpowered


it would make pro protoss players pay more attention to zealots and therefore there is less left for other activities --> they perform weaker --> straight up nerf to protoss in a balanced state of the game on prolevel.


You're actually arguing AGAINST more micro? Terran players would also have more time to do "other activities" if they didn't have to micro so much, but somehow they get by. Protoss can do it too.


No, I'm arguing that you can't just make charge go to manual control, you would also have to add something like a "+damage when charge hits"-effect, if you don't want such a change to be a straight up nerf to highlevel Protoss players.

If you make control harder, it also has to become more beneficial, else you are interferring with balance, not just with control.


Not necessarily true at all. The "nerf" effect could be near to non existent at top level (less than 0.001% for e.g.) and still make the race harder to micro / more fair at lower level.
Rooooaaaar
Scufo
Profile Joined October 2010
United States136 Posts
April 28 2012 18:24 GMT
#839
A-move Protoss is stronger than a-move Terran...that's just a fact. Everything is fine at the super high level where both players are microing their hearts out, but below Grandmasters TvP is just frustrating. Because unless you micro perfectly, that chargelot/colossus/HT/archon deathball will flatten everything you have in seconds.

I think Terran needs more options for unit composition. It's silly that no factory units are viable. That's where all of Terran's muscle units are, and we bloody need them to compete against the deathball.
PureBalls
Profile Joined January 2012
Austria383 Posts
April 28 2012 18:26 GMT
#840
On April 28 2012 21:51 Recognizable wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2012 21:47 PureBalls wrote:
On April 28 2012 21:45 teamhozac wrote:
On April 28 2012 21:41 Wingblade wrote:
On April 28 2012 21:30 SKYFISH_ wrote:
On April 28 2012 21:21 Wingblade wrote:
On April 28 2012 17:11 Scila wrote:
On April 27 2012 21:11 -Kira wrote:
On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote:
Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.


let it cook a little, untill terrans figure it out just like toss had to


Yeah Protoss had to figure out so much man. Terrans use Thors - Thors nerfed. Terrans use BFH - blue flame nerfed. Terrans use 2 rax - 2 rax nerfed. Protoss don't use Warp Prism, Blizzard buffs Warp Prism and Protoss start to use it. Yeah man, you sure had to figure a lot of things out.

There's nothing to figure out. Terran higher tech units (Tanks, Thors, Ravens, BCs) are horrible against Protoss, and not good enough against Zerg. That's why Terrans are sticking to MMM all game long.


But isn't the main issue of TvP "difficulty" the power of lategame Protoss AoE and mass chargelot warpins? Those things have always been around. The Protoss AoE has not been patched in almost a year, and nothing has changed regarding warpins. The main things that give Terran trouble have always been around. We learned how to utilize them, now it is your turn.


No, you didnt learn to utilize anything, maps just became bigger while Blizzard kept nerfing Terran early game which means they cant end the game off one base anymore.

People have been bitching about Protoss AOE since the game was released and Blizzard refuse to address the issue.
So T players are stuck with MMM, like it or not.
I personally dont mind, but shit got stale fast for many people so they either stopped playing or switched races.

Ultimately its Blizz's loss though



1-1-1 got nerfed? You can still win in the midgame, and you have a comfortable advantage there before lots of AoE gets out. Maybe there has been no adjusting of AoE because Blizzard doesnt think there should be. If you think your a brilliant balance designer than you should apply at blizzard, I'm sure you know so much more than all of their paid designers right now.


Having larger maps makes 1-1-1 basically useless. For once Blizzard actually let the metagame (sort of) develop, although you guys did get an immortal range buff out of it. But like I said before, the HUGE rush distances basically make 1-1-1 an extinct strategy

That is a good thing.


No it's not. Terran has no viable all ins which allows protoss to be extremely greedy. On the other hand, all Terrans now how powerfull Protoss all ins are...

There are no one base protoss all ins. There should not be any for terran either.
Prev 1 40 41 42 43 44 71 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #142
SHIN vs PercivalLIVE!
ByuN vs GgMaChine
CranKy Ducklings126
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft466
SortOf 156
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 31715
Calm 21130
Jaedong 1787
Horang2 1191
Pusan 621
Hyuk 582
BeSt 471
Soma 228
EffOrt 204
Leta 156
[ Show more ]
Last 155
Larva 150
Light 140
Stork 120
Hyun 97
Mong 87
ggaemo 81
soO 66
ToSsGirL 59
Mind 59
Snow 59
Sacsri 43
Free 34
NotJumperer 22
scan(afreeca) 17
Shine 17
sorry 15
Bale 14
Sexy 14
IntoTheRainbow 14
JulyZerg 14
Noble 9
Dota 2
The International101207
singsing5205
Fuzer 716
KheZu168
Counter-Strike
fl0m814
edward630
zeus570
x6flipin250
Other Games
B2W.Neo309
ToD205
DeMusliM200
Happy81
KnowMe37
MindelVK9
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV272
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 16
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 45
• LUISG 34
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP8
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1719
• WagamamaTV286
• lizZardDota260
League of Legends
• Jankos1579
Upcoming Events
PiG Sty Festival
12m
Maru vs Shameless
Reynor vs TriGGeR
IntoTheiNu 34
IPSL
4h 12m
OSC
12h 12m
Afreeca Starleague
22h 12m
Rush vs Hm
Bisu vs Shuttle
WardiTV Weekly
23h 12m
The Patches Monday
1d 4h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 22h
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
[ Show More ]
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
PiG Sty Festival
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
PiG Sty Festival
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S3: W7
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
CSLAN 4
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

ASL Season 22
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 1
Escore Tournament S3: W8
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.