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On April 27 2012 22:15 Destructicon wrote:
One more problem, stalkers can too easily kite and kill marines, this discourages micro and certain early game attacks and small scale skirmishes. A fix would be to make Stalker range 5 with an +1 range upgrade, or too make stalkers slower, that way they can still kite and hit and run, but they can't do so without taking any damage at all.
If you want to go the route of reduce stalker range to 5 you'd have to reduce marauder range to 5 and give it +1 range trough conc shells.
You obviously never kited marines with stalkers.
Take this kind of BS to bnet forums, it really ruined your otherwise reasonable post.
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yeah nerf terran more, early scout block wall ins are OP!!!!!!!
terra so OP lets have a look about them because they can open so many ways llololo techlab OP!111
lmao
no talk about
TvP late game
TvZ late game
no talk about other balance things
a useless cross ladder statistic which no one gives a fuck about
seems like i have to switch races,
i feel PISSED as master terran end the game early-mid or LOSE if u dont have fucking MKP micro or korean 598588 APM
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On April 27 2012 13:21 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 13:14 Sabu113 wrote:On April 27 2012 13:09 avilo wrote:
I think at this point I may have to start collecting and casting TvP replays from pro players where the Terran wins the big battles and is up 30-70 supply and protoss still is in the game and ends up winning from hitting psi storms. It's depressing they still do not address TvP lategame after all this time (TvZ lategame isn't much better after the ghost nerf).
It's also disappointing that a balance designer is equating winrate statistics with how the game is currently being played/the metagame. Statistics have NOTHING, absolutely nothing to do with the current metagame. What about the converse? The part where terran is wrecked early on but survives on its super efficient units, super healing bunkers, and mules? I think the bitching about TvP late game is mainly that terrans don't like Toss having the ability to apply sustainable and persistent straight pressure on. The biggest imbalance in TvP lategame is the mass colossus switch. Typically terrans won't have enough vikings to be able to deal with the switch and just get killed. Obviously, prematurely building vikings is a bad idea because they're useless against zealot/storm/stalker/archon and you really wanna be powering everything into bio. Even when scouting the colossus switch, one starport with a reactor isn't good enough to counter a double robo so more starports are required to defend it. Then if the next battle is about even, and you are left with a bunch of vikings (and he doesn't have colossus) he can go straight back into templar/zealot. It's this lategame flexibility which Terran struggles to deal with. And I say this as a protoss who has been exploiting this fact for months now. I suspect that the winrate on cloud kingdom is so heavily in protoss's favour because CK tends to produce long games, and Terrans tend to do worse vs protoss in long games. I really dont understand how Korhal is so heavily protoss favoured in ZvP...
I think you are perfectly right, terran has troubles with tech switches, be it ultras into broodlords or psi into colossi.
but in TvP terran suffers most from the very strong synergies that protoss units provide each other
an example:
early game is fine, until medivacs/stim/combatshields hit, then terran has to do some pressure to get ahead in economy or units or make good trades at least (keeping the protoss army or economy low is always the goal)
the reason this works so well is simple: protoss tech has not kicked in yet; fast colossi beeing risky unless you want to hit a specific timing, psi is def not ready aswell unless you bank on your first 2 storms to kill everything
so where are we going now?
we have either a bunch of charge zealots and 1-2 archons plus psi coming along or we got ~2 colossi plus gateway army on the field
at this point the game is pretty balanced and usually goes in favor of one player - but if however neither of the players decide to attack the game is shifting towards a way terrans want to avoid in tvp - maxed supply
but why is this? terran has ghosts against templar, vikings against collosi, kiting versus zealots - given the same amount of micro why would you want to avoid those fights?
pretty easy: 2 tech parths' with very good synergy; a protoss lategame army works perfectly together without having to do too much for it, your cheap yet very powerful units tank damage and keep bioforces on the run (given the terrain is there)
stalkers/sentrys deal dps at the next range level and finally colossi templar splashing their AE from far away
for a terran its very hard to maintain good dps while kiting (marauders do bad vs zealots), getting key snipes or emp's and controling vikings at the same time - this does work for exceptionally good terrans decent, but in the end the damage that is done during the process of kiting etc is usually at least on par
now this leads to the following conclusion:
you can trade with the protoss at early to mid game, pressure him very decent at midgame, and beeing able to trade late game again with deficits (but dare you lategame terran if fumble one part of your army control, getting ghosts feedbacked, storm flanked, losing your vikings to storms/stalkers or simply have not enough porduction to keep up with warpins)
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On April 27 2012 21:30 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 21:13 Sapp wrote:On April 27 2012 21:06 ZenithM wrote:On April 27 2012 20:52 Quotidian wrote:David Kim wrote: We think that the adjustments we’ve made over time have kept pace well with meta game shifts did he actually admit to making balance changes that attempt to interact with metagame shits? That is totally not the job of a balance designer. The metagame is its own thing, and he should not be tampering with it and attempting to influence it, because as a result gross imbalances can occur as the metagame shifts again. On top of that he is risking stereotyping the match-up, like what happened when they put energy back on the Thor and completely shut down a strategy way before that strategy had even permeated the metagame. The classical "let the game balance itself with magical metagame shifts omg!". You know, metagame can be something like "Terran can't win, let's pick Protoss". Doesn't mean David Kim has to leave it at that and wait for a metagame shift that is not guaranteed to come. So yeah, he has to keep track of metagame shifts for balance purposes, if he's not looking at metagame then what the hell does he base himself on? Was the Thor and Ghosts changes good? I don't know, and I think decisions were taken too fast, but for others: roach range, KA amulet, ramp changes for PvP, blink timings, immortal range against 1-1-1, etc... Something obviously had to happen... I don't belive i'm hearing this.. Plz, u terran player, look me straight in the eyes and tell me that one ghost that cost 200/100 that can kill two broodlords just like (pew pew) that was a "ballanced" thing. decision were taken too fast? WTF man? I'd look you in the eyes and tell you with a straight face that the decision was exaggerated. Not only are your numbers off, a ghost could only kill one BL, but you fail to take into account the follow up and the context. Basically the only player in the world that was consistently winning late game TvZ using mass ghost snipe was MVP. I can count on one hand the number of times he did that. One of the was, unfortunately, right in front of the Blizz devs at Blizzcon, and they probably felt like it forced their hand. You have no idea how hard it is to control your army and your ghosts so well as to EMP all the infestors, repentantly snipe BLs and keep them and your army alive. Now if you're an intelligent and well educated man you'd only make a decision to buff or nerf a unit after you see it in several late game situation. MVP only won a hand full of games with that strategy, and we have countless other Koreans of comparable skill that failed, the sample size is ridiculously small, how can you make any educated decision from that? Now the follow up, in late game TvZ, assuming you managed to destroy the BL, Infestor, Corrupter army, which is very hard to do considering how strong it is, you have to invest into tons of Vikings, and Thors and get good positions. The follow up attack with lings and ultras would kill you given that Thors and Vikings are terrible against ultras and lings. After that the follow up of BL, Corrupter can kill you because marauders are terrible against air. So, no matter how much you hate it, terran needs a flexible unit in the late game that can handle both tech switches relatively well, supported of course. Terrans don't have any of that now seeing as Ghost was the only unit that worked and T3 terran sucks. So how the hell can you make a meta-game change of this magnitude, with such a limited number of games and with total disregard for the consequences and implications? However, I can tell you of a case that is even more damning, that of the Thor. Exactly after TSL3, with no time for the community to adapt, to learn and to counter, Blizzard nerfed the Thor into the ground. Thorzain single handedly managed to get the Thor nerfed. However, you would say that a single tournament contains both a very limited number of games, and a very small period of time for people to learn and adapt. Yet Blizzard didn't consider that and nerfed the Thor into oblivion, with disregard to the consequences, and look at the situation we have now, terran needs a good late game T3 unit and it has none. Now can you tell me with a straight face and looking into my eyes that Blizzard hasn't fucked up the balance and has rushed it?
i'm really happy ur not a ballance designer. (or rather unbalance designer, lol) Terran is a strong race.. always been and will be. ghosts had to go. snipe was clearly op. (and i'm not going to argue if that nerf was done good or bad, but it was op and had to go)
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I am 100% positive its nothing but a metagame issue that makes Terran struggle (and I play Terran)
__________________________________________________________________________________
my thought process behind this statement:
(repeat of different QQ thread)
(excuse me butchering your beloved language)
(Pro-quotes are pretty old and without source -my bad.)
-MMM worked so exeptional well over such a long period of time - it makes adaptions/improvements very hard "mindsetwise"
-dropplay that would totally screw most of Protoss back then is often times now easily defended
(oldfashioned statements like "Protoss does not want to split their ball" come to my mind)
-soon good Protoss players (mouzccHasuObs did this super early) just stopped beeing the aggressor, which made drops kind of a gamble.
-aTnCloud once stated he would only drop vs a defensive Protoss if he is behind or ahead or P. is clearly out of position.
-Problem: the MMM composition itself forces a super agressive playstyle. A high tech Unit like a medvak is not costefficient in one single 200 vs 200 battle. no wonder the few truely successful Bio players (MKP etc) are relentlessly fighting - using MMM to maximum efficiency. (kind of weird a healing-dropship is only good if the Terran is raging all over the map with it
-Imo Terran puts himself on a clock by playing this style (with ervery storm/colossus and even added gateway his comp looses viability/loosing the upgradewar does its part too)
that is common sense for the most part.
(LS once changed his mind on lategame TvP engagements quoting Terran should not loose if engages correctly with marineheavy MMMVG+scans)
-from a spectators side I kind of dont`t like the Idea of relying so heavy on you own control
(since even most of the Pros simply cant handle that in TvP)
->>>because it is more often not the engagement itself that is killing Terran -> it is the remax!
-(I personally see a huge parallel to TvZ here,)
-So Terran is just designed to have a weakness here that atm can only be dealt with by not loosing big clash fights -ever.
To come back to me seeing parallels in defensive Protoss to Zerg (which has kind of always been the "makro/defensive/reactive-race):
So I say Toss plays like Zerg used to play vs Terran:
I think we might need to look on how Zerg crushes a Protoss (IdrA might say "they don`t -.-) to evolve the metagame:
A very common way in ZvP is to pressure the 3rd/2base allin- timing with an overwelming roach-supply ("Stephano" style lol)
SO my question is: Why is nobody maxing out on marodeur/Hellion+few Vikings by 14ish and crushes Protoss before that timestamp (exact Unit comp is not even that important)?
180 rauderHellion has a lot more oompf to it than roach Ling has!
"People do not do it because it does not work"
"there is a reason standard is standard"
"what league are you in"
-> standard is not working any more so it should not be standard...
I really think Terran has been the creative race over the time (they had the most options for the most part - true that)
I really think we can figure it out without throwing (no offence OP) "random" nerfes at Protoss
I hope I made my point clear
(Unit-imbalance not beeing the problem)
I will sit down calm and wait for the TvP messiah to break the metagame for me^^ join the passive resistance my friends
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No consideration for the casuals 
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On April 27 2012 23:29 freeshooter wrote:No consideration for the casuals
There was, actually. He mentioned that he is reading on forums about balance at all levels, not just pros. He did not declare any changes, but he might make changes in the future that really only helps casuals (like the phoenix upgrade).
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Chargelots please? Hello??? Can't believe they are ignoring this issue...
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My theory on why they didn't talk about TvP is because there's no one even trying to figure out mech yet. Protoss has been fighitng MMM since beta and tried every tech path so they are ready for almost anything MMM has to offer, I'm curious what would happen if some gosu pro (unlike me) figure out mech and the impact on the matchup.
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In response, we’re considering offering zerg better scouting options in the early game.
I bet Idras brain exploded at this part.
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On April 27 2012 23:47 Krymming wrote:
My theory on why they didn't talk about TvP is because there's no one even trying to figure out mech yet. Protoss has been fighitng MMM since beta and tried every tech path so they are ready for almost anything MMM has to offer, I'm curious what would happen if some gosu pro (unlike me) figure out mech and the impact on the matchup.
u cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 2 years ago
lol
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On April 27 2012 23:50 noidontthinkso wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 23:47 Krymming wrote:
My theory on why they didn't talk about TvP is because there's no one even trying to figure out mech yet. Protoss has been fighitng MMM since beta and tried every tech path so they are ready for almost anything MMM has to offer, I'm curious what would happen if some gosu pro (unlike me) figure out mech and the impact on the matchup. u cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 2 years ago lol
The game has changed a lot in 2 years.
And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jinro defeat MC with some meching 2 years ago?
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
I don't really envy his job. There's only so much you can do with a game that's being dragged down by fundamental design flaws. He doesn't address issues like lategame TvP because he doesn't have the power to do anything about it.
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On April 27 2012 23:50 noidontthinkso wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 23:47 Krymming wrote:
My theory on why they didn't talk about TvP is because there's no one even trying to figure out mech yet. Protoss has been fighitng MMM since beta and tried every tech path so they are ready for almost anything MMM has to offer, I'm curious what would happen if some gosu pro (unlike me) figure out mech and the impact on the matchup. u cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 2 years ago lol
vileIllusion beat FXOz with a mech build at IPL4.
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On April 27 2012 23:56 Krymming wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 23:50 noidontthinkso wrote:On April 27 2012 23:47 Krymming wrote:
My theory on why they didn't talk about TvP is because there's no one even trying to figure out mech yet. Protoss has been fighitng MMM since beta and tried every tech path so they are ready for almost anything MMM has to offer, I'm curious what would happen if some gosu pro (unlike me) figure out mech and the impact on the matchup. u cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 2 years ago lol The game has changed a lot in 2 years. And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jinro defeat MC with some meching 2 years ago?
you cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 1 second ago
sounds better to you?
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On April 27 2012 23:50 noidontthinkso wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 23:47 Krymming wrote:
My theory on why they didn't talk about TvP is because there's no one even trying to figure out mech yet. Protoss has been fighitng MMM since beta and tried every tech path so they are ready for almost anything MMM has to offer, I'm curious what would happen if some gosu pro (unlike me) figure out mech and the impact on the matchup. u cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 2 years ago lol
You're an idiot. Plenty of people play mech vs Protoss. It's viable at the highest levels and has been demonstrated by MKP and other high level Korean Terrans. I play mech in TvP in mid master league all the time.
Here's two VODs I can find in 2 minutes:
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66855/?set=4&lang=
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls1/vod/66902/?set=2&lang=
User was warned for this post
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On April 28 2012 00:01 noidontthinkso wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 23:56 Krymming wrote:On April 27 2012 23:50 noidontthinkso wrote:On April 27 2012 23:47 Krymming wrote:
My theory on why they didn't talk about TvP is because there's no one even trying to figure out mech yet. Protoss has been fighitng MMM since beta and tried every tech path so they are ready for almost anything MMM has to offer, I'm curious what would happen if some gosu pro (unlike me) figure out mech and the impact on the matchup. u cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 2 years ago lol The game has changed a lot in 2 years. And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jinro defeat MC with some meching 2 years ago? you cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 1 second ago sounds better to you?
Thors did not have energy back then.
Edit: And progames where mech works the protoss is just not reacting to mech properly.
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On April 28 2012 00:03 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 00:01 noidontthinkso wrote:On April 27 2012 23:56 Krymming wrote:On April 27 2012 23:50 noidontthinkso wrote:On April 27 2012 23:47 Krymming wrote:
My theory on why they didn't talk about TvP is because there's no one even trying to figure out mech yet. Protoss has been fighitng MMM since beta and tried every tech path so they are ready for almost anything MMM has to offer, I'm curious what would happen if some gosu pro (unlike me) figure out mech and the impact on the matchup. u cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 2 years ago lol The game has changed a lot in 2 years. And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jinro defeat MC with some meching 2 years ago? you cant play mech vs protoss, was figured out 1 second ago sounds better to you? Thors did not have energy back then.
Ghosts can deal with HT just as effectively with Mech as they can with Bio. Feedback doesn't work if you have no energy.
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On April 27 2012 23:27 SamsLiST wrote:
I am 100% positive its nothing but a metagame issue that makes Terran struggle (and I play Terran)
__________________________________________________________________________________
my thought process behind this statement:
(repeat of different QQ thread)
(excuse me butchering your beloved language)
(Pro-quotes are pretty old and without source -my bad.)
-MMM worked so exeptional well over such a long period of time - it makes adaptions/improvements very hard "mindsetwise"
-dropplay that would totally screw most of Protoss back then is often times now easily defended
(oldfashioned statements like "Protoss does not want to split their ball" come to my mind)
-soon good Protoss players (mouzccHasuObs did this super early) just stopped beeing the aggressor, which made drops kind of a gamble.
-aTnCloud once stated he would only drop vs a defensive Protoss if he is behind or ahead or P. is clearly out of position.
-Problem: the MMM composition itself forces a super agressive playstyle. A high tech Unit like a medvak is not costefficient in one single 200 vs 200 battle. no wonder the few truely successful Bio players (MKP etc) are relentlessly fighting - using MMM to maximum efficiency. (kind of weird a healing-dropship is only good if the Terran is raging all over the map with it
-Imo Terran puts himself on a clock by playing this style (with ervery storm/colossus and even added gateway his comp looses viability/loosing the upgradewar does its part too)
that is common sense for the most part.
(LS once changed his mind on lategame TvP engagements quoting Terran should not loose if engages correctly with marineheavy MMMVG+scans)
-from a spectators side I kind of dont`t like the Idea of relying so heavy on you own control
(since even most of the Pros simply cant handle that in TvP)
->>>because it is more often not the engagement itself that is killing Terran -> it is the remax!
-(I personally see a huge parallel to TvZ here,)
-So Terran is just designed to have a weakness here that atm can only be dealt with by not loosing big clash fights -ever.
To come back to me seeing parallels in defensive Protoss to Zerg (which has kind of always been the "makro/defensive/reactive-race):
So I say Toss plays like Zerg used to play vs Terran:
I think we might need to look on how Zerg crushes a Protoss (IdrA might say "they don`t -.-) to evolve the metagame:
A very common way in ZvP is to pressure the 3rd/2base allin- timing with an overwelming roach-supply ("Stephano" style lol)
SO my question is: Why is nobody maxing out on marodeur/Hellion+few Vikings by 14ish and crushes Protoss before that timestamp (exact Unit comp is not even that important)?
180 rauderHellion has a lot more oompf to it than roach Ling has!
"People do not do it because it does not work"
"there is a reason standard is standard"
"what league are you in"
-> standard is not working any more so it should not be standard...
I really think Terran has been the creative race over the time (they had the most options for the most part - true that)
I really think we can figure it out without throwing (no offence OP) "random" nerfes at Protoss
I hope I made my point clear
(Unit-imbalance not beeing the problem)
I will sit down calm and wait for the TvP messiah to break the metagame for me^^ join the passive resistance my friends
I am with this guy on TvP, there are tons of scary things terran can do, but no one has figured out how to make them flow in a standard game. A lot of units are seen as useless or not worth the investment. PvZ has similar issues with the zealot, which was considered useless in the match up for quite some time. But people figured out a way to fit it in to the current metagame with voidrays. It opened a whole new way to play the match up. It also allows protoss to put on early pressure while macroing.
I really hope that terrans find new ways to fit factory units into standard play, even if it is with bio or on a limited scale. The banshee is still the scariest unit for a protoss in the early game and if terran can figure out how to expand behind using one, it would put a lot more unknowns for the protoss. And all protoss fear the unknown against terran.
Also, I think the 1 rax FE has been figured out and mastered by most protoss. I jump for joy when terrans do that build, because it is so predictable.
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EPT
