EPTTalking Balance with David Kim - Page 23
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
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-Kira
352 Posts
On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote: Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke. let it cook a little, untill terrans figure it out just like toss had to  | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:45 MooLen wrote: I share this opinion bout PvT. Most terrans just took this MU as a free win for way to long. Now thx to the patches protosses have a fair chance now and most of them take it. Terrans dont adapt to the protosses nowadays and lose due that. Mostly because they´re to arrogant to realise they have to. Instead they asking for nerves and cry like 4 year olds. But im happy David Kim does`nt give the whinners any attention. lol what? Are you talking about the time when Protoss died to 1/1/1 because the maps were the size of stamps and protoss didn't know what to do? | ||
Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On April 27 2012 21:06 ZenithM wrote: The classical "let the game balance itself with magical metagame shifts omg!". You know, metagame can be something like "Terran can't win, let's pick Protoss". Doesn't mean David Kim has to leave it at that and wait for a metagame shift that is not guaranteed to come. So yeah, he has to keep track of metagame shifts for balance purposes, if he's not looking at metagame then what the hell does he base himself on? Was the Thor and Ghosts changes good? I don't know, and I think decisions were taken too fast, but for others: roach range, KA amulet, ramp changes for PvP, blink timings, immortal range against 1-1-1, etc... Something obviously had to happen... you're completely off the mark. A balance designer should only address issues that are obviously imbalanced - like KA, warpgate timings in pvp etc. They have a "wait and see" mentality for a lot of things, but for other issues, like the Thor energy issue, they outright kill a strategy/unit before the protoss metagame has even attempted to resolve the issue. There's nothing "magical" about the metagame sorting itself out, and a balance designer should be working independently of the metagame anyway. His job should be to facilitate player creativity, not to limit - for example terran - to MMM only in tvp. Basically, SC2 has received balance patches way too often for its own good, and even worse Blizzard has flipflopped on issues way too often as well. | ||
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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Inquisitor1323
370 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On April 27 2012 21:11 -Kira wrote: let it cook a little, untill terrans figure it out just like toss had to Protoss didn't figure it out all on their own. The maps where made more Protoss friendly and Terran was nerfed several times trough the history of SC2. If you want to let it cook, you better have the firefighters close by. | ||
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Sapp
Poland173 Posts
On April 27 2012 21:06 ZenithM wrote: The classical "let the game balance itself with magical metagame shifts omg!". You know, metagame can be something like "Terran can't win, let's pick Protoss". Doesn't mean David Kim has to leave it at that and wait for a metagame shift that is not guaranteed to come. So yeah, he has to keep track of metagame shifts for balance purposes, if he's not looking at metagame then what the hell does he base himself on? Was the Thor and Ghosts changes good? I don't know, and I think decisions were taken too fast, but for others: roach range, KA amulet, ramp changes for PvP, blink timings, immortal range against 1-1-1, etc... Something obviously had to happen... I don't belive i'm hearing this.. Plz, u terran player, look me straight in the eyes and tell me that one ghost that cost 200/100 that can kill two broodlords just like (pew pew) that was a "ballanced" thing. decision were taken too fast? WTF man? | ||
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bonedriven
258 Posts
When tons of complains were thrown at them that zerg has poor scout at early game, they just ignored it like a boss. Oh they are the boss. I'm not complaining only about zerg. I mean there were many problems regarding all races reported, but their balance team is for some reason way too arrogant. | ||
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Greenei
Germany1754 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On April 27 2012 21:15 Greenei wrote: if you dont shut up about using mech against protoss, then we will advise you to use your carrier more often if the balance should swing out of protoss favor... Theres a certain amount of irony here considering this is EXACTLY what many Terrans did back when Terran was stomping Protoss into the ground everywhere (back before the Ghost nerfs). So yah, you're a little late on that. | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
either you slowly gain an advantage and deal some damage throughout the game until you can kill his army and he doesnt have money to reinforce with like 20 warpgates. or you play the passive game and get to like 10 scv count with 5+ orbitals and then fight. you cant be in the middle of the road on this one and expect to win. asking a terran to win a 200food fight with high scv count vs protoss is like asking a zerg to win vs 200food toss without broodlords or ultralisk, its just not supposed to happen Yeah I understand that Morrow, for PvZ that Zerg has to gauge the protoss and drone up + tech OR make units to stop attacks in order to get to the late game ahead of the protoss, but if the protoss plays greedy what can you do? Sure you can do some attacks, but most of the maps (Antigua, Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak) have super narrow chokes everywhere especially at bases which makes (a) 2 base force field / immortal pushes or the like VERY difficult to stop and (b) really hard to attack the protoss because force field is so powerful. We can barely get any info on the protoss, and I can't tell you how many times I thought 'damn that looks like a 5 or 6 gate and a robo, he's going to attack at my third with forcefield I need a ton of units with burrow and burrow movement. Then I realise 2 minutes later that he expanded, and from there it's GG because I made units upon scouting a ton of production. Or other games, I actually get to the late game ahead, with a ton of broodlords, infestors, a few corruptors and a few roaches. This only really happens on big maps, where the protoss just goes around my army with blink stalkers, sacrifices one of his bases for all my bases. I can't take on his blink stalkers with my small roach infestor force, but if I don't have a ton of broodlords they are too easy to kill, and if I don't have corruptors the mothership has too much of an easy time to vortex. Since spines are useless, you pretty much need to build your crazy late game army and all in. Every stage of PvZ is infuriating and without a perfect read on your opponent it's too easy to take a slightly wrong decision (like making units on 3 bases so you don't die to random attacks) and end up behind. Now that protoss can deal with mutalisk, there is no more harass options. Not saying at the tip top level things are imbalanced, but that's because Zerg players know every timing exactly and have such good read on their opponents. I don't understand how I am supposed to know how to react every time I scout a 1/4 protoss base and catch a glimpse of their army. Doesn't seem fair that I should know. | ||
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Nekovivie
United Kingdom2599 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On April 27 2012 21:13 Sapp wrote: I don't belive i'm hearing this.. Plz, u terran player, look me straight in the eyes and tell me that one ghost that cost 200/100 that can kill two broodlords just like (pew pew) that was a "ballanced" thing. decision were taken too fast? WTF man? I'd look you in the eyes and tell you with a straight face that the decision was exaggerated. Not only are your numbers off, a ghost could only kill one BL, but you fail to take into account the follow up and the context. Basically the only player in the world that was consistently winning late game TvZ using mass ghost snipe was MVP. I can count on one hand the number of times he did that. One of the was, unfortunately, right in front of the Blizz devs at Blizzcon, and they probably felt like it forced their hand. You have no idea how hard it is to control your army and your ghosts so well as to EMP all the infestors, repentantly snipe BLs and keep them and your army alive. Now if you're an intelligent and well educated man you'd only make a decision to buff or nerf a unit after you see it in several late game situation. MVP only won a hand full of games with that strategy, and we have countless other Koreans of comparable skill that failed, the sample size is ridiculously small, how can you make any educated decision from that? Now the follow up, in late game TvZ, assuming you managed to destroy the BL, Infestor, Corrupter army, which is very hard to do considering how strong it is, you have to invest into tons of Vikings, and Thors and get good positions. The follow up attack with lings and ultras would kill you given that Thors and Vikings are terrible against ultras and lings. After that the follow up of BL, Corrupter can kill you because marauders are terrible against air. So, no matter how much you hate it, terran needs a flexible unit in the late game that can handle both tech switches relatively well, supported of course. Terrans don't have any of that now seeing as Ghost was the only unit that worked and T3 terran sucks. So how the hell can you make a meta-game change of this magnitude, with such a limited number of games and with total disregard for the consequences and implications? However, I can tell you of a case that is even more damning, that of the Thor. Exactly after TSL3, with no time for the community to adapt, to learn and to counter, Blizzard nerfed the Thor into the ground. Thorzain single handedly managed to get the Thor nerfed. However, you would say that a single tournament contains both a very limited number of games, and a very small period of time for people to learn and adapt. Yet Blizzard didn't consider that and nerfed the Thor into oblivion, with disregard to the consequences, and look at the situation we have now, terran needs a good late game T3 unit and it has none. Now can you tell me with a straight face and looking into my eyes that Blizzard hasn't fucked up the balance and has rushed it? | ||
Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote: Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke. I have not seen anything about midgame TvP either. (And i'm Terran...) | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On April 27 2012 21:12 Quotidian wrote: you're completely off the mark. A balance designer should only address issues that are obviously imbalanced - like KA, warpgate timings in pvp etc. They have a "wait and see" mentality for a lot of things, but for other issues, like the Thor energy issue, they outright kill a strategy/unit before the protoss metagame has even attempted to resolve the issue. There's nothing "magical" about the metagame sorting itself out, and a balance designer should be working independently of the metagame anyway. His job should be to facilitate player creativity, not to limit - for example terran - to MMM only in tvp. Basically, SC2 has received balance patches way too often for its own good, and even worse Blizzard has flipflopped on issues way too often as well. How do you distinguish between "obviously imbalanced" things and just "metagame trends"? Was 1-1-1 obviously imbalanced (winratio wise it definitely was) or just temporary metagame setup and Blizzard buffed the immortal too soon? Who are you to decide that? Well, there is a guy who can decide, it's his call, and his name is David Kim. End of story, like it or not, metagame brings forth imbalanced things, and it's his job to fix it. You can stay with a game completely imbalanced in XvY, X favored, and one guy will come up with the only thing that works for Y to take games off of X, making it somewhat balanced. Is it creativity? Yes, the first time it is, but after that everybody does the same thing and a metagame shift occurs. Your point is that it's way better to have it like this than Blizzard patching the game so that everybody can continue enjoying it (not just wait for a genius Revolutionist to do something). My point is that it doesn't bring much to let people in a state of despair until they find a playstyle (at worst, a gimmick) that will save them. Having a balanced state of the game doesn't restrict player's creativity, it's completely false too. Look at when SlayerS brought their blue flame hellion drop thing at Anaheim. TvZ at that time was not at all imbalanced, but people always strive to push their winrate from 50% to 60%. You would have them try to push their winrate from 30% to 50% while a side of the matchup is sitting at 70% and doing nothing? It's not like I don't understand what you're saying btw, many people think like you, and it's somewhat reasonable, as it was done like this in BW as I understand it (and they balanced around maps). My point is that there are other ways to go about it, and I don't think Blizzard has done a bad job with it. The game has become very enjoyable for me equally to play and to watch at least. | ||
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Pwnani
Canada27 Posts
A game should not be balanced on points in time that you can win, you should be able to win at all stages of the game depending on what builds you do, thus an all in build can win you a game in the first 7 min, where a 2 base timing push may allow you to win in the first 12 min. The dissapointing aspect now about sc2 is that PvT early game and mid game are not as viable and potent as they once were as protosses have figured out how to properly deny drops and use ff's properly. Thus, even if Terran has a fully stimmed army with medivacs and a supply lead of 10, with correct ff's and perhaps 3-4 stalker in your main picking off drops you can easily survive mid game. With that being said its not as if protoss cannot win mid game either, I have done several 1 rack gasless fe's and gotten smashed by a 7 gate, with the toss expo'ing after the cyber core. i have lost to countless all ins from the protoss, doing Collosus all ins at 9 min, immortal busts, 4 gate, void ray warp, warp prism 5 gate etc. There are plenty of mid game strats available for protoss to just win the game, the same cannot be said for terran. Currently, drops are not as effective in most situations after 9 min because the current meta game allows for protoss to do 1 gate expands pretty comfortably, and as a result they are able to have the stalker count and unit count to easily ff ramps as well as have stalkers to kill drop ships. Banshees while viable for some harasss can easily be countered even with GAS first on a protoss 1 gate expo, as long as they make a robo facility after 3 gates. So if we understand this, banshee harass is nulified, drops are now nulified, no mid game timing pushes because protosses are good with ff's now. Once a terran player understands this you can state in your mind "okay well what if I just play late game strategies? If the toss is likely just to sit on 2 bases I will just out macro him" this is a great strategy and I have thought about it numerous times, the problem is this if the protoss decides to go 2 base all in because of an ob scout you lose because you will not have enough time to tech to vikings and colusus cannot be beaten unless you have MKP micro. If you do end up getting ahead and the toss decides to take a 3rd and you a 4th this sends it to late game.(this is where the problem lies and this is why I am quitting sc2) If I have an economic advantage, the same or better upgrades and I have 4 base to 3 base vs a protoss I still cannot take on chargelot, archon, temp colusus. Here is the reason, chargelots, like a user posted above do quite alot of dps,(generally protoss because of double forge will be ahead in upgrades anyways which only exagerates the problem) If I have any chance in defeating the army I have to kill all the chargelots, have perfect micro on my vikings so they dont die to archons, and keep microing my main bio unit so as not to die to lots, while at the same time emp'ing temps. All the protoss has to do, 1 A chargelot colusus, try and land storms(this is easily done if stormers are kept in the back) and maybe land some forcefields if he has any sents left. So pending that I do all this and do not get hit with a single storm because of automatic chargelot damage plus colusus aoe, usually I come out about even. Then when the trade comes off even, the protoss retreats remakes a ton of chargelots and still has temps which turned into archons, because even if I emp his temps (unless I hit them twice he can still storm me) he can turn them into archons regardless and I wont have time to snipe or, I will have used my emp on chargelots. I meanwhile try and remax my army, the protoss being on 3 bases and maxing a 200/200 army prior to this has banked 2k resoures and made 14+ gateways. As a result he remaxes instantly with chargelot archon, and temps, and rolls my army. I meanwhile have banked 3k, but due to restrictions of base size have my entire base filled with buildings including my nat with rax. This being said, I know alot of people will say "learn how to emp you noob" guess what heres food for thought, I have played on a smurf account, been up 80 supply vs a platinum player, he only had chargelots, and a few colusus, Emp'ed ALL his chargelots, but because he was ahead ofme in upgrades 2-2/ 1-1 he still cleaned me. However, if it was other way around and he had landed 1 storm it would be gg. Chargelots needs a change, this should come in the amount of shield they have. Specifically that the shield is increased compared to the hull so that emp does more damage relative to that unit. Chargelot is the single reason why pvt late game sucks so much balls, having this change in unit would allow the mid game and early game to stay the same, but chargelots wouldn't be so powerful late game AND THE GAME WOULD REQUIRE MICRO and zealot splitting instead of 1A chargelot eat emp, who cares. This would allow non-pro players to actually be able to compete with protoss late game as everything would match up, you could still send zealots in, you could still storm, but unless you are microing your zealots late game properly you will lose, just like terran has to do with bio. As for whoever wrote about the colusus being an expensive unit, think about the amount of vikings you have to make just to be able to kill a colusus without losing your whole army, you should have about 4 vikings if there is one colusus. (stalker micro btw can easily kill vikings because they incredibly low hp). so 4 viking 125 min each + 75 gas, 500+300, colusus 300/200. Seems fair to me, it seems like you have the adv actually since viking are crap afterwards. Other than the chargelot, I think the game is balanced, but the fact that 1 race can 1A late game and remax instantly is not founded on anything but stupidity. This unit needs a change make it so that if they actually need to worry about getting their chargelots emp'ed. I will be interested to see the rebuttals please do not hesitate. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On April 27 2012 11:27 Jaegeru wrote: That may be true but as demuslim said on stream it seems unfair that terran has to do so many more things than protoss being dodging storm's, getting emp's off, sniping templar, microing vikings and microing bio. Whereas protoss has to split templars, try hit a storm and focus vikings when they can. Don't misinterpret this as balance whine I'm just pointing out that you have to be so fast and have crazy apm to win. it's winnable if you play really well. These things make me laugh... being dodging EMPs, getting storms off, dodging snipes (with our much slower non-cloakable HTs), micro colossi away from vikings, blink/micro/position stalkers to target vikings, make sure our melee units get good surface area, guardian shield/forcefield. Fun game no? | ||
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