EPTI KNOW its hart to tech switch
and i KNOW that mech is countered and so on and so on.
and thats why i say it is strange that bio SHOULD work
but nothing else works better and that sux.
Talking Balance with David Kim - Page 22
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grummel
Germany46 Posts
I KNOW its hart to tech switch and i KNOW that mech is countered and so on and so on. and thats why i say it is strange that bio SHOULD work but nothing else works better and that sux. | ||
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Hds
France200 Posts
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
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MooLen
Germany501 Posts
On April 27 2012 19:58 MorroW wrote: + Show Spoiler + better early game scouting for zerg would be absolutely amazing. thats the only thing i feel im having trouble with against terran, is in the early stages to figure out what terran is doing. 50% of the time i feel im playing abit too risky and 50% of the time i felt like i was playing overly safe when i could drone up more all because i didnt manage to get enough scouting intel im surprised the winratio in pvz is eu+na>kr because from personal experience i felt korea was alot harder to play zvp. also gsl statistics sit on <30% winratio for zvp for 2 seasons now while foreigner events are pretty balanced in that regard the pvt statistics are as i expected, korean terrans have always been very very good at tvp especially while eu and na is lacking terran representation overall on the higher levels 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom is kinda understandable. myself i feel its a great map but it might be kinda good for pvt cause you can defend 3base fairly easy and drops is not a big issue 62% win ratio in PvZ on Korhal Compound just blows my mind. when i first saw this map and i still feel it should be very good for zerg. toss taking 3base should be pretty hard here and 2base play is kinda expected on a map like this. well i guess zergs are having much harder time with 2base tosses than 3base tosses recently 37% win ratio on Metalopolis for TvZ not a shocker really. not saying the map is terribly imbalanced but i do feel terran need a different playstyle out of the ordinary to deal with the long distances and all the open areas and expansions that are pushed into the edges of the map rather than outwards towards your opponent. myself i kinda like it for both tvz and zvt alot of people are talking about tvp lategame, i dont know if i really share this opinion after watching a few top notch terrans just never ever getting hit by a money storm all game long. tvz asks you to never get hit by bane mines or huge bane connects, no money fungals or full surrounds, i dont see how the micro control against protoss to deal with storm can be so much harder than that. it feels like both are extremely hard to pull off but definitively possible. i hope you guys realize in theory protoss should win a maxed out fight if his army value is enough higher and you still have around same number of scvs as he has probes. not to mention hes instant warpin to reinforce. you should take this into consideration that you dont just sit around all game and then do a 200 food fight and expect to win. either you slowly gain an advantage and deal some damage throughout the game until you can kill his army and he doesnt have money to reinforce with like 20 warpgates. or you play the passive game and get to like 10 scv count with 5+ orbitals and then fight. you cant be in the middle of the road on this one and expect to win. asking a terran to win a 200food fight with high scv count vs protoss is like asking a zerg to win vs 200food toss without broodlords or ultralisk, its just not supposed to happen I share this opinion bout PvT. Most terrans just took this MU as a free win for way to long. Now thx to the patches protosses have a fair chance now and most of them take it. Terrans dont adapt to the protosses nowadays and lose due that. Mostly because they´re to arrogant to realise they have to. Instead they asking for nerves and cry like 4 year olds. But im happy David Kim does`nt give the whinners any attention. User was warned for this post | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:35 grummel wrote: yea i know. terran has the hardest time to tech switch because they need so many production buildings and multiple ways of upgrades (as zerg has). and i also see the problem that high templars hardcounter bio balls very effective. and yea mech kinda sux against protoss because of immortals jsut one example. but still it feels kinda strange that it should be possible to go like barax only + 1-2 starports and now matter what composition your oppponent is throwing at you it should work and be good against all of it. i am not pro enough to find a solution, but it kinda sux anyways - my opponent goes mass stalker -> i go bio - my opponent goes zeal/arch heavy -> i go bio - my opponent goes colossi heavy -> i go bio adding vikings here and there. i dont know how this can be changed but i guess you get the point. it kinda feels strange how the terran race is designed anyways :D i dont care what race my opponent is, nor what army composition he uses i go bio + one counter unit (ghost or viking or a thor) and go from early to mid to late game with it. emp by the way is the highest damage AOE effect in the game isnt it, true its hard to land properly and feedback can stop you but emp is not that bad compared to storm. Well, but that's basically the whole idea behind Terran. You choose a techpath and the techpath has to offer most of the things you need all game long. In theory, the design was probably supposed to offer a opening choice between bio and mech, mabye even starport based play. It just turns out that balancing such a kind of race becomes superhard, due to still being able to mix in units from other techpaths. 1-1-1 attacks are the perfect example for this: they are very unpredictable (could be Hellion Drop, could include banshees with or without cloak, with siege tanks, with ravens, with medivacs etc). The big problem for balancing Terran for more equal options to bioplay is probably the marine. It's a universal, mineral only, early available, frontline unit and therefore easily combineable with basically every other unit. Which is, why it is so hard to buff any unit for Terran accordingly, for as long as marines are strong throughout a whole game. Broodwar didn't have this problem, because Marines were weaker - but it led to Terran being balanced around different units like Tanks and bio only being straigth up playable in one matchup. | ||
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KAmaKAsa
Finland210 Posts
Easy/hard is all relative some things might be harder to execute than other things like casting storms to dodging storms and shit like that all you can do about this is to improve and overcome the problem. Most people seem to go the way that "we need to figure out something that is easier so we can win" . learn from mistakes, if you dont think you did any mistakes youre an idiot | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:45 MooLen wrote: I share this opinion bout PvT. Most terrans just took this MU as a free win for way to long. Now thx to the patches protosses have a fair chance now and most of them take it. Terrans dont adapt to the protosses nowadays and lose due that. Mostly because they´re to arrogant to realise they have to. Instead they asking for nerves and cry like 4 year olds. But im happy David Kim does`nt give the whinners any attention. That is incredibly short sighted and stupid view on it. The pro gamers are smart enough to realize that times are changing and to notice that Protoss are getting better. They are also smart enough to realize that winning is the most important thing, pride and arrogance has no place here. If terrans aren't changing this, aren't experimenting with mech, air or a combination of those, then it simply doesn't work at the highest level. And these issues are real and something Blizzard need to take notice of, its not about the whiner idiots on ladder, its about what is happening at the highest level of game. The lack of viability of mech in TvP, lack of options apart from bio, and the enormous advantage of late game Protoss via splash and warp in are fundamental problems that won't go away. | ||
Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
We think that the adjustments we’ve made over time have kept pace well with meta game shifts did he actually admit to making balance changes that attempt to interact with metagame shits? That is totally not the job of a balance designer. The metagame is its own thing, and he should not be tampering with it and attempting to influence it, because as a result gross imbalances can occur as the metagame shifts again. On top of that he is risking stereotyping the match-up, like what happened when they put energy back on the Thor and completely shut down a strategy way before that strategy had even permeated the metagame. | ||
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An2quamaraN
Poland379 Posts
On April 27 2012 10:28 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: I have the same concerns about TvP...also, I found their comment that Protoss had the lowest representation at the highest levels of tournaments. Huh? The majority of the top 8 in current code S are protoss... Its simply because terrans started playing greedy and stopped making ghosts...basically they are trying to win with pure MMM so they don't need to micro too much...well...i guess it doesn't work to well for them. | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:43 Hds wrote: What about lategame TvP? I didn't see D.Kim talked about it in this topic :< Im very disappointed that they did not mention it. I wonder if they have any stats about winrates related to game time. | ||
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Avean
Norway449 Posts
You cant have marine, marauder and medivac against a chargelot, colossus, sentry army. They will utterly destroy you. Terran has TONS of other units, do more mech units. The worst as a protoss i face is a mech army from Terran. I have to micro my ass off to defeat it. Not sure if this is the entire problem with the PvT matchup but at my level and below its certainly is. | ||
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Protoss-Bah
74 Posts
You cannot overlook things just because they aren't comfortable looking at, thats a clear sign of irresponsibility. There are so many balance issues he didn't even bother adressing, such as Zerg problems ZvP where Zerg ground just don't cut it against Protoss and Zerg forced to BL. And Protoss problems dealing with BL's. Terrans HUGE problems against Protoss lategame, as MMM doesn't cut it vs storms+colossi and everyone knows it. Protoss large problems dealing with Terran early/mid game pressure. The Ghost, a powerful unit weakened down to oblivion. PvP volatility. TvT static games with 30 min tank line battles. Just saying that "hey because there are 100 people complaining that T is imbalanced, 100 people about Z and 100 about Protoss, that means the game is balanced" is damn irresponsible... | ||
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VY Canis Majoris
Sweden32 Posts
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MooLen
Germany501 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:52 Destructicon wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 27 2012 20:45 MooLen wrote: I share this opinion bout PvT. Most terrans just took this MU as a free win for way to long. Now thx to the patches protosses have a fair chance now and most of them take it. Terrans dont adapt to the protosses nowadays and lose due that. Mostly because they´re to arrogant to realise they have to. Instead they asking for nerves and cry like 4 year olds. But im happy David Kim does`nt give the whinners any attention. That is incredibly short sighted and stupid view on it. The pro gamers are smart enough to realize that times are changing and to notice that Protoss are getting better. They are also smart enough to realize that winning is the most important thing, pride and arrogance has no place here. If terrans aren't changing this, aren't experimenting with mech, air or a combination of those, then it simply doesn't work at the highest level. And these issues are real and something Blizzard need to take notice of, its not about the whiner idiots on ladder, its about what is happening at the highest level of game. The lack of viability of mech in TvP, lack of options apart from bio, and the enormous advantage of late game Protoss via splash and warp in are fundamental problems that won't go away. The lack of varriating mech and bio and air is what i understand about terrans beeing arrogant. They dont chance anything even if its not working. In TvZ they atleast switching between bio and and marine tank, but in TvP they just dont try anything other then MMM plus ghost in lategame. So may you missunderstood my comment but thats what i meant. | ||
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Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:55 Avean wrote: Well whats happened with the PvT matchup is before Terran with MMM builds were incredibly strong. Protosses feared it, now all protoss down to silver level know what to do to counter it. I see master level players today still using MMM builds even in lategame. You cant have marine, marauder and medivac against a chargelot, colossus, sentry army. They will utterly destroy you. Terran has TONS of other units, do more mech units. The worst as a protoss i face is a mech army from Terran. I have to micro my ass off to defeat it. Not sure if this is the entire problem with the PvT matchup but at my level and below its certainly is. Sorry, if you lose to mech as a P you really are playing poorly. Feedback shits on high teir T units. | ||
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ZeroTalent
United States297 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:44 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: Some of the things he said were just frightening. How can you EVER think that a little imbalance is acceptable because it makes the game fun? As a BALANCE designer, are you not responsible to make the game balance as possible? If you are more motivated to make the game fun then you don't end up with an Esport, you end up with a shit game that only 12 year old brain dead teenagers enjoy. Sc2 can be such a better game then it is right now but Kim seems to have this head in his ass. He was referring to map imbalances. Having to respond to different "mini-imbalances" like this is something that happens in all sorts of competitive arenas. The Miami Heat are pretty good, but they don't have anyone who can go toe-to-to with Dwight Howard. So they have to adjust their game plan when they play Orlando. Ultimate MvC3 players have to change the way they play against teams with Phoenix, scrubby Dark Wesker players, and Morrigan keepaway teams. And so on. Why should players be able to use the same strategy and tactics on every map? That would make the game feel very repetitive. If I wanted to have fun mashing the S and A keys all day I'd play a rhythm game. | ||
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:55 Avean wrote: Well whats happened with the PvT matchup is before Terran with MMM builds were incredibly strong. Protosses feared it, now all protoss down to silver level know what to do to counter it. I see master level players today still using MMM builds even in lategame. You cant have marine, marauder and medivac against a chargelot, colossus, sentry army. They will utterly destroy you. Terran has TONS of other units, do more mech units. The worst as a protoss i face is a mech army from Terran. I have to micro my ass off to defeat it. Not sure if this is the entire problem with the PvT matchup but at my level and below its certainly is. This basically sums up why Blizz shouldn't be balancing for the lower leagues. Before you posted, have you ever considered that the only thing that Terran can make against Protoss is bio? Have you considered that terran upgrades are separate for mech, bio and air? Have you considered you can't tech switch from one to the other? Have you considered that Protoss GW and Robo units gain benefits from forge upgrades? Do you have any idea how hard Protoss rapes mech units? It sounds to me like you have problems with 1/1/1, which should be a non issue if you can buy time and delay enough to get Colossus. Chargelots rape helions, you can't hit and run micro against Chargelots, because you need to keep a buffer unit for your tanks, your tanks also rape your helions. Chargelots obliterate tanks, it takes 5 shots to kill a zealot, and they are also able to close the distance very fast. Chargelots destroy thors as well and if in chokes, they buffer for Colossus. Immortals obliterate tanks. Colossus murder helions and Thors. Hell you could defeat a Mech terran mostly by a-moving, mech is literally that bad against Protoss. Your opinion on this matter does not in any way match with what is happening at the highest level of the game, and is thus irrelevant. Even in GSL Code S korean, players still do MMM with Ghosts and Vikings, not because its the best comp, its because it is the ONLY comp that works at that level at all stages of the game. Do some research next time before you post theories that have no validity in real life. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:52 Quotidian wrote: David Kim wrote: did he actually admit to making balance changes that attempt to interact with metagame shits? That is totally not the job of a balance designer. The metagame is its own thing, and he should not be tampering with it and attempting to influence it, because as a result gross imbalances can occur as the metagame shifts again. On top of that he is risking stereotyping the match-up, like what happened when they put energy back on the Thor and completely shut down a strategy way before that strategy had even permeated the metagame. The classical "let the game balance itself with magical metagame shifts omg!". You know, metagame can be something like "Terran can't win, let's pick Protoss". Doesn't mean David Kim has to leave it at that and wait for a metagame shift that is not guaranteed to come. So yeah, he has to keep track of metagame shifts for balance purposes, if he's not looking at metagame then what the hell does he base himself on? Was the Thor and Ghosts changes good? I don't know, and I think decisions were taken too fast, but for others: roach range, KA amulet, ramp changes for PvP, blink timings, immortal range against 1-1-1, etc... Something obviously had to happen... Edit: and overall most changes were good I think. | ||
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Sapp
Poland173 Posts
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bEwArE
United Kingdom121 Posts
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