EPTTalking Balance with David Kim - Page 21
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frozzz
Croatia118 Posts
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Stenbocken
Sweden23 Posts
On April 27 2012 19:35 Destructicon wrote: I'd also like to add that this is issue also exists in TvZ late game, tech switches from BL to Ultralisk, and back again hurt Terran massively due to a lack of a flexible and strong late game army that can deal with both compositions. It is important to remember that this is a part of the game showing the value of infrasturcute, zergs can easily tech switch thanks to only having one unit producing building, in the same way this is helping zerg it is often abused by terrans when they park their marine tank army between hatcheries rendering the zerg unable to rally and resupply. Infrastrucure is an extremely important part of the game but as long as terrans are achiveing good winrates at both prolevel and lower levels I do not think this is a problem worth balancing. I am more concered about ultralisk's very limited effectivity against good micro of small sized units countering their splash damage. | ||
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Superouman
France2195 Posts
On April 27 2012 19:45 frozzz wrote: fix fcking lategame tvp for god's sake, it's not balanced and last gsl games showed it.and protoss please stop theorycrafting about hit emps as its absolute joke to get everything to work and have a far fight(or winning fight, even harder). This is why ladder cloud kingdom has 70% pvt. Since it's focused to promote lategame and lower league players are not good at kiting, i'm totally not surprised by this win ratio. | ||
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aintthatfunny
193 Posts
On April 27 2012 19:40 TeeTS wrote: He doesn't have to be in code s to be true. BUT I want to see the style he describes be practically proven. First: It is very hard to play. Second: It's really hard to get to your fourth base in TvP. I've seen Creatorprime crushing the best terrans in the world with a 3-3 coloss/archon timing. The Problem is, the lategame composition he describes is very expensive for terran. espcially the ghosts are. ghosts cost 150 rescources per supply, vikings cost 112,5. Colossus costs 83, Templar/archon 100. Upgrades are cheaper too for protoss and protoss needs fewer upgrades until the very late game, since terran also has to upgrade ship weapons. The second weakpoint of his theory is that he assumes, that the terran hits every emp. 2 or three storms are enough to simply kill a mostly marine/ghost based army. In theory, you can argue, this should be possible. But the reality just shows us, that NO terran in the world is capable to prevent storms from getting off in the lategame. And this is the point of being too theoretical. You need strategies that are executable in real situations. Even to get to the point where you can afford 7-8 macro OCs, which are about 4k minerals, is really hard. Because the Protoss is willing to trade with you, once he gets his composition together, because his is cheaper, and therefor he reaches his one sooner. And even if he is in the attackers disadvantage, he will trade ok with you (if you are out in the open) or just contain and massexpand (if you are setting up a too strong defence on 3bases). It's an interesting view at the game, but way too theoretical. And the big point here is, it is way too hard to execute this style as terran, since one mistake usually leads to instant defeat. All I hear is "I don't want to get better". Yes, it is possible, no, there ARE terrans that are capable of either dodging storms or sniping the HTs. Stop whining, and play better. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
Basically this is what many people want. A game where each race has distinct advantages and disadvantages that provide tools for BOTH players resulting in EQUAL chance of winning (in a different fashion due to racial differences) where the person's skill i.e. decision making/mechanics/game sense etc is what tips the player to win against the opposing player AT ALL stages of the game. Balancing the game around an overall 50% winrate where a complete disregard of the above and thinking that racial imbalances add race dynamics is just not the way to go.. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
im surprised the winratio in pvz is eu+na>kr because from personal experience i felt korea was alot harder to play zvp. also gsl statistics sit on <30% winratio for zvp for 2 seasons now while foreigner events are pretty balanced in that regard the pvt statistics are as i expected, korean terrans have always been very very good at tvp especially while eu and na is lacking terran representation overall on the higher levels 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom is kinda understandable. myself i feel its a great map but it might be kinda good for pvt cause you can defend 3base fairly easy and drops is not a big issue 62% win ratio in PvZ on Korhal Compound just blows my mind. when i first saw this map and i still feel it should be very good for zerg. toss taking 3base should be pretty hard here and 2base play is kinda expected on a map like this. well i guess zergs are having much harder time with 2base tosses than 3base tosses recently 37% win ratio on Metalopolis for TvZ not a shocker really. not saying the map is terribly imbalanced but i do feel terran need a different playstyle out of the ordinary to deal with the long distances and all the open areas and expansions that are pushed into the edges of the map rather than outwards towards your opponent. myself i kinda like it for both tvz and zvt alot of people are talking about tvp lategame, i dont know if i really share this opinion after watching a few top notch terrans just never ever getting hit by a money storm all game long. tvz asks you to never get hit by bane mines or huge bane connects, no money fungals or full surrounds, i dont see how the micro control against protoss to deal with storm can be so much harder than that. it feels like both are extremely hard to pull off but definitively possible. i hope you guys realize in theory protoss should win a maxed out fight if his army value is enough higher and you still have around same number of scvs as he has probes. not to mention hes instant warpin to reinforce. you should take this into consideration that you dont just sit around all game and then do a 200 food fight and expect to win. either you slowly gain an advantage and deal some damage throughout the game until you can kill his army and he doesnt have money to reinforce with like 20 warpgates. or you play the passive game and get to like 10 scv count with 5+ orbitals and then fight. you cant be in the middle of the road on this one and expect to win. asking a terran to win a 200food fight with high scv count vs protoss is like asking a zerg to win vs 200food toss without broodlords or ultralisk, its just not supposed to happen | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On April 27 2012 19:46 Stenbocken wrote: It is important to remember that this is a part of the game showing the value of infrasturcute, zergs can easily tech switch thanks to only having one unit producing building, in the same way this is helping zerg it is often abused by terrans when they park their marine tank army between hatcheries rendering the zerg unable to rally and resupply. Infrastrucure is an extremely important part of the game but as long as terrans are achiveing good winrates at both prolevel and lower levels I do not think this is a problem worth balancing. I am more concered about ultralisk's very limited effectivity against good micro of small sized units countering their splash damage. It is an issue, because the risks/rewards ratio of the game get destroyed if one side has too much of an advantage at any stage of the game. If you know Protoss has a very high chance to win after 20 mins, then it leads to situations of Protoss playing ultra defensive until such time as they can exploit their late game, or terrans forced into situations of being extra greedy and risky in either economy or offense to try and destroy the protoss before it reaches max strength. In short the game becomes predictable and dull. The game should be one where each race near equal chances to win at all stages in the game. The flow of the game should be: exploit one of my early game advantages, to get into a favorable position in the mid game, where I could expand on my advantage and either win or use one of my mind game advantages to gain a favorable position in the late game, where I either win or use one of my late game advantages to win. The flow of the game right now is, for terran, either win early game or lose late game, or for protoss, survive the mid and early game long enough to win in the late game. In my opinion that is a issue that damn well needs looking into, as it gets boring, stale and frustrating for both players and spectators to see the general idea repeat itself. | ||
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grummel
Germany46 Posts
Try to fight with Roach Ling Hydras Infestors against such a death ball  or try to fight with zelot stalker against a zerg deathball. i was allways wondering why a low tier army SHOULD be able to deal all so well with a high end tier army. and it is not that you wont see terran winning its just tough for them. still i dont know whould would work better against it then those bio balld, but think about it... rines rausers is like tier 1 units. why should the terran be able to stay on his units early mid and lategame forever without a single techswitch and be happy with it??????? zergs and toss have to change their army composition like all day long, so WHY ON EARTH should terran be the only race that can just stick to barax only no matter what comes upon them... ok fine ad a second starport for vikings or ghosts is not really a techswitch right? i know terran has the hardest time with a techswitch, so thats propably why they cant... i dont know i think as well protoss is favored in lategame right now, but with all the money going into tech and hier tier units it should be like that compared to those tier 1. something has to be done but i dont have a clue what that should be. (and no im not a protoss player nor a terran hater) | ||
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paradoxOO9
United Kingdom1123 Posts
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
2) Late-game TvP has been a joke for months now as the only real option for Terran is to go bio and Protoss has overwhelmingly strong AoE and the ability to remax a LOT faster after every fight. 3) I don't think early game scouting is a problem in ZvT. If the Terrans stays on one base, you have to know that there is something coming. If it was easier Terran would lose many builds as they are too simply hard-countered by Spines or Spores. That being said, high tier Zergs are able to stop most all-ins despite no 100% confirming them with a scout. 4) It really, really pisses me off that Dustin Browder and David Kim are still the only persons in charge of balance. I don't want to go down the insulting path, but I really think that neither of these guys is intelligent. Their changes over the past two years have been awkward to say the least. Why don't they get the help of pros? I mean it can't be that hard to get a group of like 5 top players of each race together and let them talk about balance. One group would suggest buffing a unit, the others would agree and say for this to happen one of their units has to be buffed or another unit has to be nerfed or any other kind of change, then they enter these settings, sit down and play some games. After that they talk again and repeat the process. Imagine what would happen if they did this for about 2 weeks, 8 hours a day. | ||
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bouhko
193 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:14 grummel wrote: i am allways so surprised why should a Tier1 Terran army of Marines Marauders Medivas beat a high tier-3 deathball P army heads on? Try to fight with Roach Ling Hydras Infestors against such a death ball or try to fight with zelot stalker against a zerg deathball. i was allways wondering why a low tier army SHOULD be able to deal all so well with a high end tier army. and it is not that you wont see terran winning its just tough for them. still i dont know whould would work better against it then those bio balld, but think about it... rines rausers is like tier 1 units. why should the terran be able to stay on his units early mid and lategame forever without a single techswitch and be happy with it??????? zergs and toss have to change their army composition like all day long, so WHY ON EARTH should terran be the only race that can just stick to barax only no matter what comes upon them... ok fine ad a second starport for vikings or ghosts is not really a techswitch right? i know terran has the hardest time with a techswitch, so thats propably why they cant... i dont know i think as well protoss is favored in lategame right now, but with all the money going into tech and hier tier units it should be like that compared to those tier 1. something has to be done but i dont have a clue what that should be. (and no im not a protoss player nor a terran hater) its because how the race is designed not all races operate or evolve the same throughout the game. you can go back to starcraft 1 even and see a terran who plays SK terran (marine medivac vessel) all game long fighting head to head with ultralisk defiler and lings. terran bio and mech are upgraded differently, divided into mech upgrades and bio. at same time colossus, immortal and all gateway units get upgraded from the same upgrades terran already has to upgrade air weapons and the bio, if they had to go through a mech switch like toss switches between colo and hts upgrades would be too big of a deal. and if you think about it, you have gateway and robo, they have raxe and starport. its really the same on top of that, mech is unfortunaly just very weak against protoss, for many reasons i would love to see a buff in mech against protoss in some way to make it worthwhile to mixture in units such as tanks in the late game but that would tamper too much with terrans other matchup, not to mention 111 against protoss in the early game | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:14 grummel wrote: i am allways so surprised why should a Tier1 Terran army of Marines Marauders Medivas beat a high tier-3 deathball P army heads on? Try to fight with Roach Ling Hydras Infestors against such a death ball or try to fight with zelot stalker against a zerg deathball. i was allways wondering why a low tier army SHOULD be able to deal all so well with a high end tier army. and it is not that you wont see terran winning its just tough for them. still i dont know whould would work better against it then those bio balld, but think about it... rines rausers is like tier 1 units. why should the terran be able to stay on his units early mid and lategame forever without a single techswitch and be happy with it??????? zergs and toss have to change their army composition like all day long, so WHY ON EARTH should terran be the only race that can just stick to barax only no matter what comes upon them... ok fine ad a second starport for vikings or ghosts is not really a techswitch right? i know terran has the hardest time with a techswitch, so thats propably why they cant... i dont know i think as well protoss is favored in lategame right now, but with all the money going into tech and hier tier units it should be like that compared to those tier 1. something has to be done but i dont have a clue what that should be. (and no im not a protoss player nor a terran hater) because races are designed differently. Though I basically agree with the point you make - low Tier units on even supply are cheaper and easier to mass then high tier units - you have to step back a bit and look how this fits in the particular picture. Terran does have a very "flat" Tier system. Compared to Zerg for example, factory and starport units (exception battlecruiser) are somewhat "Tier 2"ish. What makes units "higher Tier" for Terran, is that they need to invest more into infrastructure (production and addons) to maintain a good amount of production. Then there are also unit specific upgrades, like stim, combat shields, concussive shells, cloak, moebius reactor which are somewhat "Tier increasing". A fully evolved MMMVG army really should not be considered T1-T2, but rather something along the lines of 1.5-2 (marine/marauder), 2 or 2.5 (reactored medivacs and vikings) and 2.5 (Ghosts with Moebius/Cloak). Still the army is just cheaper and lower tech then the Protoss deathball consisting of Tier 1.5-2 Chargelots/Blinkstalker, T2.5 Archons and T3 Stormtemplar/Colossi... something that Terran can overcome, by sacrificing SCVs for a Mule eco and a bigger army, so they can still go toe to toe with such Protoss balls. | ||
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ZeroTalent
United States297 Posts
On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote: Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke. I don't know how much credit the http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316483Playhem threads get for making this the CW (I feel like I saw lots of QQing about TvP lategame before I wrote them), but the TvP win rate in the late game isn't that far off the TvZ WR on Metalopolis. It's bad, but in the same way that Blizzard seems to be okay with having imbalances based on map, having imbalances based on game length might also be okay. If the proper response for Terrans is to veto Metal in TvZ, then they should just stop trying to play for the late game in TvP. Or figure out a new way to play long TvP games (suicide SCVs for a bigger max army? PFs and bunkers in the middle of the map?). That said I was surprised they didn't have anything to say about TvP lategame. | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
Terrans: WTF, why dont we get any meaningsful high tier units to use!? And instead we have to stay on our rax units all game long. The grass...... greener.... | ||
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CaptainCrush
United States785 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:14 grummel wrote: i am allways so surprised why should a Tier1 Terran army of Marines Marauders Medivas beat a high tier-3 deathball P army heads on? Try to fight with Roach Ling Hydras Infestors against such a death ball or try to fight with zelot stalker against a zerg deathball. i was allways wondering why a low tier army SHOULD be able to deal all so well with a high end tier army. and it is not that you wont see terran winning its just tough for them. still i dont know whould would work better against it then those bio balld, but think about it... rines rausers is like tier 1 units. why should the terran be able to stay on his units early mid and lategame forever without a single techswitch and be happy with it??????? zergs and toss have to change their army composition like all day long, so WHY ON EARTH should terran be the only race that can just stick to barax only no matter what comes upon them... ok fine ad a second starport for vikings or ghosts is not really a techswitch right? i know terran has the hardest time with a techswitch, so thats propably why they cant... i dont know i think as well protoss is favored in lategame right now, but with all the money going into tech and hier tier units it should be like that compared to those tier 1. something has to be done but i dont have a clue what that should be. (and no im not a protoss player nor a terran hater) Its not that a terran wants to stay on tier one units (even though medivacs are not tier 1...) but its that they HAVE to stay on tier one units in TvP. Mech armies just completely obliterated by protoss, we have no viable tier 3 units for the match up. Maybe if they finally remove the thor energy then it would be somewhat balanced, I bet that in all those games he just quoted that a strike cannon was used maybe once so thats the main thing they need to address! | ||
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avc
121 Posts
On April 27 2012 19:52 Superouman wrote: This is why ladder cloud kingdom has 70% pvt. Since it's focused to promote lategame and lower league players are not good at kiting, i'm totally not surprised by this win ratio. Absolutely. I wish people wouldn't go bonkers over these highly subjective statistics based on the widest array of skill levels within the game. | ||
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grummel
Germany46 Posts
On April 27 2012 20:26 Big J wrote: because races are designed differently. Though I basically agree with the point you make - low Tier units on even supply are cheaper and easier to mass then high tier units - you have to step back a bit and look how this fits in the particular picture. Terran does have a very "flat" Tier system. Compared to Zerg for example, factory and starport units (exception battlecruiser) are somewhat "Tier 2"ish. What makes units "higher Tier" for Terran, is that they need to invest more into infrastructure (production and addons) to maintain a good amount of production. Then there are also unit specific upgrades, like stim, combat shields, concussive shells, cloak, moebius reactor which are somewhat "Tier increasing". A fully evolved MMMVG army really should not be considered T1-T2, but rather something along the lines of 1.5-2 (marine/marauder), 2 or 2.5 (reactored medivacs and vikings) and 2.5 (Ghosts with Moebius/Cloak). Still the army is just cheaper and lower tech then the Protoss deathball consisting of Tier 1.5-2 Chargelots/Blinkstalker, T2.5 Archons and T3 Stormtemplar/Colossi... something that Terran can overcome, by sacrificing SCVs for a Mule eco and a bigger army, so they can still go toe to toe with such Protoss balls. yea i know. terran has the hardest time to tech switch because they need so many production buildings and multiple ways of upgrades (as zerg has). and i also see the problem that high templars hardcounter bio balls very effective. and yea mech kinda sux against protoss because of immortals jsut one example. but still it feels kinda strange that it should be possible to go like barax only + 1-2 starports and now matter what composition your oppponent is throwing at you it should work and be good against all of it. i am not pro enough to find a solution, but it kinda sux anyways - my opponent goes mass stalker -> i go bio - my opponent goes zeal/arch heavy -> i go bio - my opponent goes colossi heavy -> i go bio adding vikings here and there. i dont know how this can be changed but i guess you get the point. it kinda feels strange how the terran race is designed anyways :D i dont care what race my opponent is, nor what army composition he uses i go bio + one counter unit (ghost or viking or a thor) and go from early to mid to late game with it. emp by the way is the highest damage AOE effect in the game isnt it, true its hard to land properly and feedback can stop you but emp is not that bad compared to storm. | ||
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
Terran armies, because of the way they are upgraded are harder to tech in and out of. Protoss Robo units share forge upgrades, this is why you see Robo used a lot and it is one of the primary reasons why you don't see Stargate play outside some early-mid game strats. Zerg Ultralisks share the same upgrades as lings from the evo chamber, it is probably a contributing factor to why ling, infestor and ultra seems much more popular lately, it probably also has to do with the fact that BL, Corrupter, Infestor costs a lot more resources and time to setup and has less mobility. So, if you invest so many resources into 3/3 Bio, you want it to be viable. If you send 3/3 upgrades into mech, you want all of mech to be viable. The other part of the problem is that, the mech and air terran doesn't work well vs Protoss. With the tank and thor nerfs mech just doesn't work at all any more, and it won't work until one or both of those are upgraded, even with the battle helion. Air won't work because it has no mineral dump and all of their units are fairly expensive. Lastly, terran T3 is also very easy to counter. Thors can be killed by Colossus and Zealots, both in open ground and even more so in chokes, and also by Immortals once you feedback Thors. Feedback is also a direct counter to Thors because of how much damage it can do, and because it forces the Terran to use his ability either on rocks or to EMP his own units, negating any use of the ability. Battlecruisers are the most expensive units in the game that you can mass produce, they require upgrades to be effective, they are weak to feedback, they require critical numbers to work and they are easy to counter both by destroying them before a mass is produced and also by disrupting the production. So, before you complain about Bio, take the time to learn and study the terran race and its own shortcomings, maybe you'll be able to make a more educated opinion. | ||
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ZeroTalent
United States297 Posts
On April 27 2012 19:58 MorroW wrote: alot of people are talking about tvp lategame, i dont know if i really share this opinion after watching a few top notch terrans just never ever getting hit by a money storm all game long. tvz asks you to never get hit by bane mines or huge bane connects, no money fungals or full surrounds, i dont see how the micro control against protoss to deal with storm can be so much harder than that. it feels like both are extremely hard to pull off but definitively possible. Speaking personally, the micro to protect against zerg AOE is much easier (siege the tanks, stim and run marines, target fire banelings/infestors with tanks, now split your marines as best you can), than against the Protoss army (emp the archons/templar, stim the bio, stutter step the bio, oh wait make sure the vikings are attacking the colossi, oh wait gotta dodge the storms since EMP doesn't take away all the templar energy). The huge range of tanks and the fact that most zerg units are melee units means that TvZ army trades are closer than TvP trades. Also if your micro is poor, the leftover stimmed marines will do better against lings (assuming they used up all their banelings) than stimmed bio does against the leftover zealot/archon/stalker. Last but not least, there's the benefit of immediate Zealot warp-ins vs hatching zerglings and morphing banelings. i hope you guys realize in theory protoss should win a maxed out fight if his army value is enough higher and you still have around same number of scvs as he has probes. not to mention hes instant warpin to reinforce. you should take this into consideration that you dont just sit around all game and then do a 200 food fight and expect to win. either you slowly gain an advantage and deal some damage throughout the game until you can kill his army and he doesnt have money to reinforce with like 20 warpgates. or you play the passive game and get to like 10 scv count with 5+ orbitals and then fight. you cant be in the middle of the road on this one and expect to win. asking a terran to win a 200food fight with high scv count vs protoss is like asking a zerg to win vs 200food toss without broodlords or ultralisk, its just not supposed to happen Basically, this, unless people figure out a way to incorporate mech units (not pure mech, just mech units) in TvP. Even without immediate warpins the P army has 15% less DPS but 40-60% more HP, not including AoE from colossus/archon/storm. | ||
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