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STATCraft w/ Playhem Dailies: Pros vs Scrubs

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
ZeroTalent
Profile Joined December 2010
United States297 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-29 02:29:22
February 28 2012 23:06 GMT
#1
TLDR Summary:
  • Pros are more Terran and less Protoss than the Scrubs -- but we don't yet know why.
  • Pros are more aggressive in the early game -- and more successful in their aggression
  • If the early aggression fails (or doesn't exist), Pro games last significantly longer.
  • When a Pro faces a Scrub, the game ends much more quickly
  • Pros tend to maximize their advantage in the window where their race is favored
  • Scrub Terrans die to early Zerg aggression far more than pros, even vs other Scrubs.
  • Yes, Virginia, Lategame TvP sucks for Terran. On the other hand, the midgame is pretty good for Terran. So maybe it's not a good idea to play for the late game???
  • In conclusion, Both Teams Played Hard. God Bless and Good Night
In our last edition of STATCraft, before I even called it STATCraft, we learned a few things about matchups by looking at how long games last (and who wins) in the 21,000 game Playhem data set. Today, we'll dig deeper into that data to learn whether or not pros are in fact playing the game differently from the riffraff.

Pros & Scrubs
One difficulty in using large open tournaments for metagame analysis is that there may be skill gaps between top level players and the riffraff who are just looking to get a couple of good games in and maybe show up on a pro's stream. But with the size of the playhem data set, we may be able to separate the two groups, to see if games between two pros are actually any different from games between two scrubs. Coming up with a solid definition of "pro" is difficult, so I decided to just use the playhem data itself to tell me who is a pro and who isn't. So for our purposes, a "Playhem Pro" is

Any battlenet ID with more than 10 games in the quarterfinals (ro8) or higher.

This definition is not perfect; some players who are on the edge of being a top pro make the cut just by virtue of having made the quarterfinals 4 or 5 times; some great players who rarely enter the Playhem tournament or don't try very hard end up not making the cut. But it is at least a good approximation of who the top players are. There are 117 such bnet IDs and they make up the lions share of games in the top 8.

All players in the Playhem data set who aren't Pros by this definition are considered "Playhem Scrubs". Again, almost all players in the Daily Open are at least Masters level, and in individual cases this isn't perfect (for instance this definition thinks that drewbie a Scrub :O), but in the aggregate it should be good enough for analysis. I then split all the games in the data set based on whether a Pro faced another Pro; a Pro faced a Scrub; or a Scrub faced another Scrub. This means that even if two Pros face each other in an early round, this counts as a Pro vs Pro match.

Let's start by look at the race mix of pros vs the race mix of scrubs (click for a full-sized image).

[image loading]
Playhem Race Mix: Pros & Scrubs by niq77174, on Flickr

Pros are much more likely to be Terran, and much less likely to be Protoss. How did this happen? Let's peek inside the matchups to see what we can learn.

Pros, Scrubs, and Game Lengths
Let's look at three versions of the game length distribution chart. The first chart shows Scrub vs Scrub game lengths. These results are very similar to the game length chart using all data. The second chart shows Pro vs Pro game lengths, and the last shows Pro vs Scrub (click for a full-sized image).

[image loading]
Playhem Game Length: Pros & Scrubs by niq77174, on Flickr

Analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +
It's easy to see here that Pro vs Pro games simply last longer. Whether this is because Pros don't all-in other Pros as often, or Pros are better at surviving all-ins, or because Pros are less likely to engage in premature egrackulation, is unclear. But the games do last longer. Also while ZvT is the slowest matchup based on the full data set, Pro TvT does have the largest number of extremely long games. Meanwhile, Pro vs Scrub games are the shortest. Again, we don't know if this is because Pros all in and win, or Scrubs all in and lose, or just that Pros are better at closing out games against Scrubs once they get ahead. But it is a very real phenomenon.

Just to bring this home, here is a chart showing the cumulative game lengths in TvP based on the Pro/Scrub matchup (click for a full-sized image):

[image loading]
Playhem TvP Cumulative Game Lengths: Pros & Scrubs by niq77174, on Flickr

The gap here is largest in the 10-15 minute window. While 57.8% of Pro vs Scrub games end before 15 minutes, only 42.6% of Pro vs Pro games end that quickly.


Pros & Scrubs, Matchup-Specific differences.

Let's now look at specific matchups to see if Pro-Pro, Pro-Scrub, or Scrub-Scrub matchups have different win rates . There's a lot of stuff going on on these charts, so let me first explain how to read them.

How to read matchup charts.
Readers seem to be most interested in balance at the Pro level. Therefore the two thickest, boldest lines on the chart are (1)a solid line for Pro vs Pro win rate. (2) a dashed line for the Pro vs Pro overall win rate for the matchup. Both win rates are written from the perspective of the first race listed. In other words, if the "PvZ" win rate is 45%, that means Protoss wins 45% of the games and Zerg wins 55% of the games.

The next darkest lines are Pro-vs-Scrub matchups. For now, these lines are slightly interesting, but I will be doing some more Pro-vs-Scrub analysis in STATCraft 3: Craft with a Vengeance.

The faintest lines are the Scrub-vs-Scrub matchup. In most cases, this line will look very similar to the overall matchup win rates by time. However in the TvP and ZvT late game (30+ minutes), the Scrub-Scrub matchup tends to favor the non-terran race; while the overall stats suggest the late game is closer to an even match.

Keep in mind that because our sample sizes are starting to get small enough that in very short games (0-5 minutes) or very long games (30-35 and 35+ minutes), it may be difficult to draw meaningful conclusions, especially for Pro vs Pro matchups. To avoid drawing bad conclusions from tiny data sets, I have removed any data points where the total number of games is less than 10 (this affects TvP the most, which has very few short or long games).

I also note each match as "even match" if the win rate is 49-51%, "slightly favored" it's between 51-53%, "favored" at 53-55%, and "heavily favored" above 55%.

PvZ:
Scrub vs Scrub: P 48.9% (Z slightly favored; 3470 games)
Pro vs Scrub: P 46.0% (Z favored; 1643 games)
Pro vs Pro: P 48.0% (Z slightly favored; 523 games)

(click for a full-sized image)
[image loading]
Playhem PvZ Win Rates: Pros & Scrubs by niq77174, on Flickr

Analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +

In PvZ Pro games, Zerg players maximize their advantage in the early game, and Pro games ending in 5-10 minutes are more common than in Scrub games. This suggests that pro Zergs are recognizing more opportunities for early aggression and/or are more effective at repelling Protoss all-ins. If the aggression fails and the game continues, or both players play a macro game, the Pro Protoss has much larger advantage during midgame and "midlate" game--between 15 minutes and 25 minutes--than in Scrub PvZs. In the extreme late game (30+ minutes), the Pro Protoss advantage appears to erode, though the sample size here is very small; Protoss players are 29-35 in games lasting longer than 25 minutes.

The Pro vs Scrub matchup results are unusual. Because there are more Zerg pros than Protoss pros, and because Pro vs Scrub games end quickly, my hypothesis was that Pro vs Scrub would show a very high win rate for Zerg in the early game. In reality, the Zerg win rate in the early game is worst for Pro vs Scrub. Instead, Pro vs Scrub PvZ is characterized by less advantage for Protoss in the midgame and "midlate" game. I'll have to unpack the Pro vs Scrub games further to see what's going on here.


ZvT:
Scrub vs Scrub: Z 50.9% (even match; 2424 games)
Pro vs Scrub: Z 43.0% (T heavily favored; 1458 games)
Pro vs Pro: Z 46.8% (T favored; 650 games)

(click for a full-sized image)
[image loading]
Playhem ZvT Win Rates: Pros & Scrubs by niq77174, on Flickr

Analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +

The Scrub v Scrub matchup shows Zergs dying to the 2rax, but heavily favored in games lasting 5-10 minutes. This suggests baneling busts, Roach/ling/baneling all-ins, and other forms of early Zerg aggression are quite powerful. Interestingly, in Pro v Pro, Zergs either decline to engage in early aggression, or are unable to force Terrans to give up in the early game. The Zerg advantage in this time window, combined with a strong advantage in the late game than in pro matches, means that at the Scrub level, the matchup tilts a hair in Zerg's favor.

In the Pro vs Scrub matchup, both races are seeking to maximize their advantages. Terrans press their advantage in the early game and early-midgame, while Zerg's play for the late game and go for a big 300 food push.

Pro vs Pro matchups show Terrans as modestly favored. Again, we see slightly more aggression than in Scrub matches; 15.7% of Pro ZvTs end before the 10 minute mark, but only 13.3% of Scrub ZvTs. Considering how little evidence we can find of successful Pro Zerg aggression, this means there is likely substantially more Terran aggression in Pro matches; though build order analysis is required to confirm this hypothesis. Overall, the pro ZvT matchup is characterized by less advantage for Zerg in all phases of the game than in Scrub ZvTs, except for the 10-15 minute.


TvP:
Scrub vs Scrub: T 51.9% (T slightly favored; 2350 games)
Pro vs Scrub: T 57.5% (T heavily favored; 1203 games)
Pro vs Pro: T 50.5% (even match; 444 games)

(click for a full-sized image)
[image loading]
Playhem TvP Win Rates: Pros & Scrubs by niq77174, on Flickr

Analysis:
+ Show Spoiler +
The TvP lategame continues to confound even the pros. Combining all games longer than 25 minutes, Terran Pros are a staggeringly bad 9-23 against Protoss Pros (!!). While this is a small sample size, the probability of such a lopsided margin suggests that Protoss is at least favored, if not heavily favored, in the lategame. Terran Pros keep the matchup close by facing fewer all-ins, and by holding their own in the 20-25 minute bucket.

Likewise, the Scrub TvP games also show abysmal win rates for Terran as the game goes on. The situation here is worse than in pro matches; by the 20-25 minute bucket, Protoss is heavily favored and never looks back. This is all strong evidence that the current metagame strongly favors Protoss in the late game. If the players are of roughly even skill, we should expect the Protoss to win as the game drags on.

Is there any hope for Terran? Possibly. The Pro vs Scrub matchup shows a significant swing back into an even match in super long games. In addition, in the five 35+ minute Pro games, Terran players went 3-2. So perhaps it is possible for Terran to split the map and grind their way to victory if they are unable to end the game early. Also, I hear the factory can be used to produce units; maybe someone should look into that...

For the curious, those 5 games are:
  • mousesports (P) vs DMApo (T)
  • yooin (T) vs PswLuxury (P)
  • RGNArtist (T) vs PswBoSs (P)
  • coLrsvp (P) vs NoNge (T)
  • GoSuPokebuni (T) vs Russano (P)


Returning to one of the first questions, then, how is it that Terrans are more likely to be Pros? Sadly, nothing we've learned here explains what is going on. Pro vs Pro matches show Terran as less favored vs Protoss than Scrub vs Scrub, but more favored vs Zerg. Meanwhile, the Pro vs Scrub results don't suggest that Terran Pros have an easier time beating up on Scrubs than Zerg or protoss. So what is going on with the Pros? We'll have to wait for the next installment to find out.

Use the thread for discussion/additional questions/etc. :D
Can we get an official definition of "all-in"? Please?
Ulfsark
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States958 Posts
February 28 2012 23:13 GMT
#2
I love these things man, keep em coming!
gg wp
darkscream
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada2310 Posts
February 28 2012 23:15 GMT
#3
I like the part where the protoss category is fullest in the scrub pie, and leanest in the pro pie, with Terran having the inverse, yet zerg is pretty much consistant at all levels. Really goes to show that Protoss is super EZ at the "scrub" tier of the game, probably due to the relative supply/power ratio of the units, but once you reach the "Pro" tier where people stop a+moving, and start actually doing positioning, flanks, splitting etc, Protoss is suddenly really hard to play.

Meanwhile terran basically doesn't work at low levels without those sorts of army tactics, so you only see a sudden uptick in their population when you reach a skill level where people can both macro and army control fairly decently at the same time.
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4983 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-28 23:25:12
February 28 2012 23:20 GMT
#4
--- Nuked ---
Pinski
Profile Joined September 2010
United States126 Posts
February 28 2012 23:26 GMT
#5
I think you need to readjust your data on Pro vs. Scrub in the matchups. Rather than having Pro vs. Scrub, have it T(Pro) vs. P(Scrub) or T(Scrub) vs. P(Pro). As just Pro vs. Scrub doesn't exactly show any useful information about the matchup, as which side is Pro, which side of Scrub?
ZeroTalent
Profile Joined December 2010
United States297 Posts
February 28 2012 23:32 GMT
#6
On February 29 2012 08:26 Pinski wrote:
I think you need to readjust your data on Pro vs. Scrub in the matchups. Rather than having Pro vs. Scrub, have it T(Pro) vs. P(Scrub) or T(Scrub) vs. P(Pro). As just Pro vs. Scrub doesn't exactly show any useful information about the matchup, as which side is Pro, which side of Scrub?


That's for next time! :D Getting excel to tease out which side is a Pro and which is a Scrub was some more work, and I wanted to write up what I had. For now, the Scrub vs Scrub and Pro vs Pro matchups are more interesting.
Can we get an official definition of "all-in"? Please?
Zennith
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States795 Posts
February 28 2012 23:33 GMT
#7
Pros are better than scrubs at the game? That's surprising!
Sentinel Gaming Competitive Team Manager | 1500+ points Masters Zerg | twitch.tv/zennith6
Theovide
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden914 Posts
February 28 2012 23:53 GMT
#8
I'm still unsure what the pro vs scrub % actually is saying. If there are more terran pros, then it'd be inviteable that in pro vs scrub mu's terran would be favoured simply because there are more matches where the terran is the pro?

Or have you taken that into notice by calculating the percentage first (ie if pT vs sZ is 90% win rate for pT and pZ vs sT is 85% win rate you can calculate that (90+15)/2=52,5% win ratio for T in scrub vs pro).
ZeroTalent
Profile Joined December 2010
United States297 Posts
February 29 2012 00:36 GMT
#9
On February 29 2012 08:53 Theovide wrote:
I'm still unsure what the pro vs scrub % actually is saying. If there are more terran pros, then it'd be inviteable that in pro vs scrub mu's terran would be favoured simply because there are more matches where the terran is the pro?

Or have you taken that into notice by calculating the percentage first (ie if pT vs sZ is 90% win rate for pT and pZ vs sT is 85% win rate you can calculate that (90+15)/2=52,5% win ratio for T in scrub vs pro).


These charts don't consider the fact that there are more terran pros than protoss pros. It just reports the raw win rate in TvP games where there is exactly one pro, without knowing which race that Pro is playing. We should therefore expect that Pro vs Scrub TvP is more favorable to T than Scrub v Scrub; that ZvT is more favorable to T; and that PvZ is more favorable to Z.

Here is the exact gap between Pro v Scrub and Scrub v Scrub.
    PvZ; +3.9% in Z favor
    ZvT: +7.9% in T favor
    TvP: +4.6% in T favor.
I'll have more to say about the Pro vs Scrub matchup later on...

Also I updated the OP to show the number of games in each data set, in case anyone gets curious about sample size.
Can we get an official definition of "all-in"? Please?
MortOrGuilt
Profile Joined November 2011
United Kingdom23 Posts
February 29 2012 00:44 GMT
#10
I personally love this thread for confirming every view I have ever held on Protoss as a race. Thank you :D
Kharnage
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia920 Posts
February 29 2012 01:00 GMT
#11
It certainly makes the Protoss is OP argument kind of weak.

A question worth asking with regard to lategame TvP: If a Terran can't beat a Protoss in the first 25 minutes while Terran are favoured, then chances are the Protoss player is better, but unable to win until that Terran advantage 'expires'?
MortOrGuilt
Profile Joined November 2011
United Kingdom23 Posts
February 29 2012 01:55 GMT
#12
On February 29 2012 10:00 Kharnage wrote:
It certainly makes the Protoss is OP argument kind of weak.


Really? The way I'm seeing it is Protoss is more popular for 'scrubs', due to their powerful units and (imo) much simpler ability vs reward playstyle whereas they fall apart as a race a bit higher up due to currently their unit options not offering much depth. Also the fact that after a certain amount of time its pretty much GG regardless vs them.
ZeroTalent
Profile Joined December 2010
United States297 Posts
February 29 2012 01:58 GMT
#13
On February 29 2012 10:00 Kharnage wrote:
It certainly makes the Protoss is OP argument kind of weak.

A question worth asking with regard to lategame TvP: If a Terran can't beat a Protoss in the first 25 minutes while Terran are favoured, then chances are the Protoss player is better, but unable to win until that Terran advantage 'expires'?

It's hard to say, because so many of these games are being played through smurf accounts. It's also possible that tactics used to try to end the game before 25 minutes put the Terran player behind in economy and/or technology. But just for the kicks, here's the complete list of 32 pro TvPs that go 30 minutes or longer
+ Show Spoiler +
Protoss Wins:
  • mousesports vs DMApo
  • GoSuPokebuni vs Russano
  • iSMentalist vs CoreaProS
  • Saladin vs Baz
  • Jaden vs ePParamedico
  • ObsidiaN vs ONEKyhol
  • DMApo vs Saladin
  • FnaticMSiKR vs iSMentalist
  • GoSuDDE vs iSMentalist
  • Attero vs Xenocider
  • Lobber vs RGNartist
  • Matty vs Lobber
  • Russano vs ePGimix
  • ONEwbc vs yooin
  • abSxMaSa vs iSMentalist
  • coLrsvp vs ePParamedico
  • VIP vs DMApo
  • Russano vs ePGimix
  • SolidBails vs Baz
  • coLrsvp vs ePGimix
  • coLrsvp vs ePGimix
  • vVvRuFF vs LGReSpOnSe
  • ObsidiaN vs KawaiiLighT


Terran Wins:
  • yooin vs PswLuxury
  • PswBoSs vs RGNartist
  • coLrsvp vs NoNge
  • YaTa vs LiquidWater
  • Baz vs PswLuxury
  • EGAxslav vs yooin
  • coLrsvp vs GoSuDDE
  • yooin vs ONEwbc
  • LGReSpOnSe vs yooin

Can we get an official definition of "all-in"? Please?
Gimix
Profile Joined October 2010
United States67 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-29 02:13:01
February 29 2012 02:11 GMT
#14
This is a really cool post

The TvP gamelength shows something I think a lot of Terran's agree with - late game TvP feels pretty hopeless.

Then again, this data might be skewed. You have a lot of my games in the TvP category and my TvP is pretty lousy.
Belha
Profile Joined December 2010
Italy2850 Posts
February 29 2012 02:17 GMT
#15
"Yes, Virginia, Lategame TvP sucks for Terran."

But in the win rates, T is slightly favored. Why to point out that, and not " Early game PvT sux for Protoss".

So so biased commentary, i would love to see that fixed.
Chicken gank op
ZeroTalent
Profile Joined December 2010
United States297 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-29 02:32:47
February 29 2012 02:31 GMT
#16
On February 29 2012 11:17 Belha wrote:
"Yes, Virginia, Lategame TvP sucks for Terran."

But in the win rates, T is slightly favored. Why to point out that, and not " Early game PvT sux for Protoss".


Because, strictly speaking, the early game also sucks for Terran. It's the midgame, and the very first part of the lategame that is very good for Terran. But I did edit the OP to be less biased.

On February 29 2012 11:11 Gimix wrote:
The TvP gamelength shows something I think a lot of Terran's agree with - late game TvP feels pretty hopeless.

Then again, this data might be skewed. You have a lot of my games in the TvP category and my TvP is pretty lousy.


Ahh, but if we're using Olympic judging rules, I'd have to throw out yooin's 3-1 record in long TvPs to balance out you, and then we are back to square one!
Can we get an official definition of "all-in"? Please?
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4983 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-29 16:05:50
February 29 2012 16:03 GMT
#17
--- Nuked ---
ChriS-X
Profile Joined June 2011
Malaysia1374 Posts
March 11 2012 10:48 GMT
#18
premature egrackulation, heh, hehehehehehehehehe
ZeroTalent
Profile Joined December 2010
United States297 Posts
March 23 2012 22:22 GMT
#19
If you're watching MLG, this thread (and its companion) is the discussion that day9 mentioned about win rates and game lengths.

:D.
Can we get an official definition of "all-in"? Please?
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