On April 27 2012 18:25 Laserist wrote: One 'balance' word at context then full of terran whine. How could you forget GomTvT days.... Jeez Please stop whining and practice.
That proves my point. The graph you showed us points out that there is no point of whine discussions. Unless someone can say that he/she outmacroed, outmicroed, have better multitasking and better in every aspect and stilll loose the game, there is no point of whining. Even if someone would have said that kind of thing, it would be highly distorted by subjectivity.
On April 27 2012 10:28 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: I have the same concerns about TvP...also, I found their comment that Protoss had the lowest representation at the highest levels of tournaments. Huh? The majority of the top 8 in current code S are protoss...
wow, because there is ONE season where top 8 are 3 Protoss 3 Terram and 2 Zergs ??? nice !
On April 27 2012 17:07 Surgical_Strike wrote: there is an obvious problem with TvP matchup. It is even until storm charglots are out..and then it gets ugly... anyone denying this is either a biased protoss player or does not watch enough SC2. Id say that most likely storm needs to be nerfed... an idea i was thinking about is possibly giving ghosts stim so they could deal with chargelots a little better and not die because they are so slow during kiting... thus they could be massed easier and giving better opportunities to deny at least a few more storms. I have no idea if that would work but it would be interesting.
Yeah, there is an obvious problem with TvP, and it's that Terrans try to make it look Protossfavored, when it is obviously=statistics not.
um actually statistics say it is protoss favored and so do the highest level games. have fun with gsl pvp fest.
No they don't. It's actually Terran > protoss both in Korea and internationally at tournament level and also in this season's GSL. Why not try actually looking at statistics rather than just making stuff up?
I don't know why people keep brining up the stats. The stats for TvP only appears balanced because most of the Ts just do an all-in or some early stim-timing in order to win. I don't call that balance really, when one side is forced to play with a timer, while the other side just has to defend well to win; it's ridiculously frustrating and not fun to both play or watch.
In all my time on TL, whenever balance discussion ensues, stats are inevitably brought up, and Terran players are always the one to dismiss them as irrelevant. Kind of funny, no? It also just so happens that the objective numbers often favor Terran. Quite the coincidence, huh? Obviously, the stats aren't everything, but they shouldn't be dismissed altogether. They're the one objective thing we have in the midst of arguments and analyses tainted by personal bias depending on what race someone plays or likes.
During the 1-1-1 era when people were giving Puma flak for abusing the 1-1-1 so much, MVP said something along the lines of "I hope people don't give Puma too hard a time. People have to realize that, in the end, winning is the most important thing".
What do these stats illustrate? Who's winning the most, that's what. You say that one side is forced to play on a timer while the other side just has to defend well to win, and even if that's true, the stats illustrate that the side that merely "has to defend well to win" actually has quite a harder time defending than your rhetoric implies. Whether or not TvP is fun to watch is an entirely different issue, though watchability has nothing to do with balanace.
Your equivocation from one group of terrans on the forums to the next is beautiful, like a painter almost.
Your statement went a little over my head, but I'm assuming it was sarcastic criticism for generalizing toward Terran players. Obviously, not everyone is like that, and there are definitely plenty of reasonable people out there; they're just not as vocal. The point I was meaning to get across from that is that, yes, everyone whines about balance because they're just emotionally invested in Starcraft. That's natural. Players of all races do that. Unfortunately, some balance whining is more justified than others, and it's just funny and kind of annoying to see Terrans balance whining even when the stats at the highest levels favor them.
People say that TvP is horribly imbalanced for Terran in the lategame. But, think about it: How can you reconcile that claim with the fact that Terran actually has a 54-ish percent winrate against Protoss in this GSL?
TvP is indeed Toss favored in the lategame. However, if all other parts of the game were equal for both races, then how does T have a winning record against P this season? The only logical conclusion is that some other part of the game must be T favored, be it the early or the midgame, or, maybe, Terran has some sort of more complex advantage. The bottom line is that it is a gross oversimplification to just complain that TvP is Toss-favored in the lategame while T has a winning record against Toss this GSL, because it ignores the obvious implication that some other aspect of the matchup is Terran-favored. Yet, it seems that the flavor of balance whining these days is to ignore that obvious implication and instead solely focus on complaining that lategame TvP is imba in favor of Toss. I find this to be annoyingly shortsighted.
Just cant get out of my head the feeling, that david kim doesnt really follow the game as much as he should be. This analysis is not in depth at all! Seems totally shallow and unprofessional to me.
Sure the CURRENT win rates might be near 50% across the board, but if the way the game is played has to remain the same for all eternity in order to maintain that 50%, then that's just boring.
On April 27 2012 17:07 Surgical_Strike wrote: there is an obvious problem with TvP matchup. It is even until storm charglots are out..and then it gets ugly... anyone denying this is either a biased protoss player or does not watch enough SC2. Id say that most likely storm needs to be nerfed... an idea i was thinking about is possibly giving ghosts stim so they could deal with chargelots a little better and not die because they are so slow during kiting... thus they could be massed easier and giving better opportunities to deny at least a few more storms. I have no idea if that would work but it would be interesting.
Yeah, there is an obvious problem with TvP, and it's that Terrans try to make it look Protossfavored, when it is obviously=statistics not.
um actually statistics say it is protoss favored and so do the highest level games. have fun with gsl pvp fest.
No they don't. It's actually Terran > protoss both in Korea and internationally at tournament level and also in this season's GSL. Why not try actually looking at statistics rather than just making stuff up?
I don't know why people keep brining up the stats. The stats for TvP only appears balanced because most of the Ts just do an all-in or some early stim-timing in order to win. I don't call that balance really, when one side is forced to play with a timer, while the other side just has to defend well to win; it's ridiculously frustrating and not fun to both play or watch.
That's a blatant exaggeration. I've seen plenty of pro-level terrans winning later games as well as early games. If you let toss get to 200/200 3/3 without touching them sure you'll struggle but just like in TvZ you have plenty of ways to harass the opponent earlier and keep them in check. The recent trend has been to do strong 2 base pushes to deny toss thirds. Plenty of protoss 2-base all-in against zerg because of the difficulties of securing thirds but that doesn't mean the match up is imbalanced overall.
And I think it's so silly this idea that we can just ignore statistics. If one side already has a 60-40% win rate in a match up and you buff them more what do you think will happen?
On April 27 2012 18:25 Laserist wrote: One 'balance' word at context then full of terran whine. How could you forget GomTvT days.... Jeez Please stop whining and practice.
That proves my point. The graph you showed us points out that there is no point of whine discussions. Unless someone can say that he/she outmacroed, outmicroed, have better multitasking and better in every aspect and stilll loose the game, there is no point of whining. Even if someone would have said that kind of thing, it would be highly distorted by subjectivity.
TLDR, no whine just practice
To be fair. Those are tournament statistics and doesn't show anything that is going on in the ladder. Plus the data samples that the korea has is too small to draw any kind of conclusion from it. Then there is that there might be foreign players affecting the korean statistics and koreans affecting international statistics. It doesn't also show how the games were won either by each race. Most likely terran got their wins by all-inning versus protoss players rather than let the game draw out into the late-game. So it isn't that great of an indicator to show how the game is balanced.
On April 27 2012 18:25 Laserist wrote: One 'balance' word at context then full of terran whine. How could you forget GomTvT days.... Jeez Please stop whining and practice.
That proves my point. The graph you showed us points out that there is no point of whine discussions. Unless someone can say that he/she outmacroed, outmicroed, have better multitasking and better in every aspect and stilll loose the game, there is no point of whining. Even if someone would have said that kind of thing, it would be highly distorted by subjectivity.
TLDR, no whine just practice
To be fair. Those are tournament statistics and doesn't show anything that is going on in the ladder. Plus the data samples that the korea has is too small to draw any kind of conclusion from it. Then there is that there might be foreign players affecting the korean statistics and koreans affecting international statistics. It doesn't also show how the games were won either by each race. Most likely terran got their wins by all-inning versus protoss players rather than let the game draw out into the late-game. So it isn't that great of an indicator to show how the game is balanced.
Balance isn't only what happens when 200/200 3/3 armies clash. If a race can get much more victories than another race early on that has to be taken into account too.
On April 27 2012 18:25 Laserist wrote: One 'balance' word at context then full of terran whine. How could you forget GomTvT days.... Jeez Please stop whining and practice.
That proves my point. The graph you showed us points out that there is no point of whine discussions. Unless someone can say that he/she outmacroed, outmicroed, have better multitasking and better in every aspect and stilll loose the game, there is no point of whining. Even if someone would have said that kind of thing, it would be highly distorted by subjectivity.
TLDR, no whine just practice
To be fair. Those are tournament statistics and doesn't show anything that is going on in the ladder. Plus the data samples that the korea has is too small to draw any kind of conclusion from it. Then there is that there might be foreign players affecting the korean statistics and koreans affecting international statistics. It doesn't also show how the games were won either by each race. Most likely terran got their wins by all-inning versus protoss players rather than let the game draw out into the late-game. So it isn't that great of an indicator to show how the game is balanced.
Now you're discrediting statistics because they are from tournaments and not ladder ?
What the hell do you people want! oO
OT, I think there's imbalances in plenty of areas of the game, but it really isn't as simple to fix as so many of you think it is. I understand that 90% of you think that you can do Kim's job better than he can, but he has to be very cautious about making changes. Changing one thing can have drastic consequences in another area of the game, and it's all stuff that has to be taken into consideration.
On April 27 2012 18:25 Laserist wrote: One 'balance' word at context then full of terran whine. How could you forget GomTvT days.... Jeez Please stop whining and practice.
That proves my point. The graph you showed us points out that there is no point of whine discussions. Unless someone can say that he/she outmacroed, outmicroed, have better multitasking and better in every aspect and stilll loose the game, there is no point of whining. Even if someone would have said that kind of thing, it would be highly distorted by subjectivity.
TLDR, no whine just practice
To be fair. Those are tournament statistics and doesn't show anything that is going on in the ladder. Plus the data samples that the korea has is too small to draw any kind of conclusion from it. Then there is that there might be foreign players affecting the korean statistics and koreans affecting international statistics. It doesn't also show how the games were won either by each race. Most likely terran got their wins by all-inning versus protoss players rather than let the game draw out into the late-game. So it isn't that great of an indicator to show how the game is balanced.
If this is true, it would mean that a) your point of lategame imbalance is true b) that the Terran standard strategy should be allin and every Terran who doesn't is a freaking cheeser and only through Terrans being bad (= not playing standard = allin) the MUs looks balanced.
I prefer to think of people having a clue what they play, but maybe I'm wrong and Terrans really don't play their standard strategies and instead try to cheese around with long games.
I really dislike David Kim just posting a shallow article like that, with some numbers and then goes on to say "we have pro feedback, it's all good and dandy".
How about he steps up to the plate, gathers pros from various countries, representing all 3 races and have a real discussion which then is broadcasted?
No offense but I'll believe and trust in what he says when he is in Code S and beating nearly every protoss he encounters, until then it is just theory, and it doesn't always sync with reality.
I don't know what stats and statistics David Kim studies, but they seem radically different from what we've seen on monthly win rate reports we get from TLPD. I'm really worried because Blizzard seems disconnected from the situation at the highest level of play.
Instead of focusing on GSL, GSTL, KSL level results and stats they seem to insist on balancing it out using ladder stats, which makes absolutely no sense given that a game on Master's level is still drastically different from a game of players at the highest level.
He also fails to take into account or even address the issue viability and strength of certain strategies or races at certain stages of the game.
I don't have much faith for their balancing or even data collection method at this point.
On April 27 2012 10:28 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: I have the same concerns about TvP...also, I found their comment that Protoss had the lowest representation at the highest levels of tournaments. Huh? The majority of the top 8 in current code S are protoss...
wow, because there is ONE season where top 8 are 3 Protoss 3 Terram and 2 Zergs ??? nice !
it's 5P 3T 0Z
yeh and with the brackets could quite easily be 3 terran and 1 protoss in the semis... then its the fact the terrans are just better....
Season 1, Quarters were 4 protoss, 3 terrans and one zerg... the semis then were 2 terrans 1 protoss and 1 zerg.. final was won by the only zerg who made it to quarters...
People look at this to loosely oh the is 5 protoss in quarters so they are imbalanced while in the very next round the only Protoss in the next round could be from a PvP.... I doubt it and I really Hope nani keeps up his good run! Then we will have comments oh he onyl wins becaus ehe is Protoss!!! lol
On April 27 2012 17:07 Surgical_Strike wrote: there is an obvious problem with TvP matchup. It is even until storm charglots are out..and then it gets ugly... anyone denying this is either a biased protoss player or does not watch enough SC2. Id say that most likely storm needs to be nerfed... an idea i was thinking about is possibly giving ghosts stim so they could deal with chargelots a little better and not die because they are so slow during kiting... thus they could be massed easier and giving better opportunities to deny at least a few more storms. I have no idea if that would work but it would be interesting.
Yeah, there is an obvious problem with TvP, and it's that Terrans try to make it look Protossfavored, when it is obviously=statistics not.
um actually statistics say it is protoss favored and so do the highest level games. have fun with gsl pvp fest.
No they don't. It's actually Terran > protoss both in Korea and internationally at tournament level and also in this season's GSL. Why not try actually looking at statistics rather than just making stuff up?
I don't know why people keep brining up the stats. The stats for TvP only appears balanced because most of the Ts just do an all-in or some early stim-timing in order to win. I don't call that balance really, when one side is forced to play with a timer, while the other side just has to defend well to win; it's ridiculously frustrating and not fun to both play or watch.
In all my time on TL, whenever balance discussion ensues, stats are inevitably brought up, and Terran players are always the one to dismiss them as irrelevant. Kind of funny, no? It also just so happens that the objective numbers often favor Terran. Quite the coincidence, huh? Obviously, the stats aren't everything, but they shouldn't be dismissed altogether. They're the one objective thing we have in the midst of arguments and analyses tainted by personal bias depending on what race someone plays or likes.
During the 1-1-1 era when people were giving Puma flak for abusing the 1-1-1 so much, MVP said something along the lines of "I hope people don't give Puma too hard a time. People have to realize that, in the end, winning is the most important thing".
What do these stats illustrate? Who's winning the most, that's what. You say that one side is forced to play on a timer while the other side just has to defend well to win, and even if that's true, the stats illustrate that the side that merely "has to defend well to win" actually has quite a harder time defending than your rhetoric implies. Whether or not TvP is fun to watch is an entirely different issue, though watchability has nothing to do with balanace.
Overgeneralize much?
Let me show you how you'll end up dismissing statistics. The Ro8 is currently 5 P, 3 T, no Z. T outnumbered P in the beginning of the season, but P has had a 70% advancement rate.
Now, does that mean you need to accept these statistics and not qualify them in any way?
Every race makes their own arguments, and while I agree that statistics are important, different statistics show different things, and the limitations of statistics need to be discussed too. It's only when all different sources of infomation, in conjunction with their limitations, are discussed that we get a clear picture of the overall situation.
Well, clearly, the nature of the stats matter. When I mentioned "stats" in that previous post, I only meant winrates, and I see winrates as valid because they are the purest statistic available to see who's actually winning the most in the big picture. Certain types of stats are misleading because they filter out the nitty-gritty information on which race is actually winning overall. As an extreme example, if I took the number of Terrans that won the GSL, compared it to the number of Protosses that won the GSL, and uses that "stat" to whine about Terran being overpowered, that would be ridiculous because it fails to take winrates in the big picture into account. Similarly, the advancement rate you bring up fails to clearly take into account winrates, and it also fails to take into the account the fact that the majority of players at the start of Code S this season were Terran. If we had a Code S with 31 Terrans and 1 Protoss and the Protoss made it to the finals, the Protoss advancement rate would be 100%, but that doesn't really mean much.
Let me be absolutely clear by stating my belief that, in the end, all that matters is who wins. If you're winning a majority of the time, you have no business whining about balance, because in the end, despite your complaining, you're still able to win a majority of the time. I also assume that top players of all races are more or less nearly equal in "skill" (putting similar amounts of practice in on the team house schedules, etc.), because if you don't make that assumption, then sure, stats are meaningless in discussing balance. Therefore, winrate stats are extremely pertinent to judging balance.
Dont get people complaining to such a huge extent over PvT lategame. Get them ghosts with personal cloaking, them vikings if there are colossus and sup? Warp prisms shouldnt be that big of a deal if you can build your base in a planed out way, not just randomly shit out buildings and besides, you could do almost the same to the P.
I think anyone watching Hero get destroyed by the terran (ghostking?) on the ladder a few days ago knows whats up.
On April 27 2012 18:25 Laserist wrote: One 'balance' word at context then full of terran whine. How could you forget GomTvT days.... Jeez Please stop whining and practice.
That proves my point. The graph you showed us points out that there is no point of whine discussions. Unless someone can say that he/she outmacroed, outmicroed, have better multitasking and better in every aspect and stilll loose the game, there is no point of whining. Even if someone would have said that kind of thing, it would be highly distorted by subjectivity.
TLDR, no whine just practice
To be fair. Those are tournament statistics and doesn't show anything that is going on in the ladder. Plus the data samples that the korea has is too small to draw any kind of conclusion from it. Then there is that there might be foreign players affecting the korean statistics and koreans affecting international statistics. It doesn't also show how the games were won either by each race. Most likely terran got their wins by all-inning versus protoss players rather than let the game draw out into the late-game. So it isn't that great of an indicator to show how the game is balanced.
Balance isn't only what happens when 200/200 3/3 armies clash. If a race can get much more victories than another race early on that has to be taken into account too.
That is true. The balance can change a lot at different points of time. I think these statistics show it really well. Honestly, I would rather have that kind of statistics to indicate balance rather than just raw win rates. Of course it has it's problems too. Like there can be too little data to show at some point in time or that the game was really lost at 10 minutes in the game, but then draw out to 15 minutes due to some reason.
EPT
