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On April 27 2012 21:42 eYeball wrote:
I like it that they don't make so sudden moves, and see rather how it all turns out. I for once agree with David Kim now that the game is more balanced at least than it ever has been, and Terrans are doing also more than fine right now compared to the other races. Don't think they need any sudden changes. Keep up the work!
Great post! I couldn't agree more.
I think the implication of this statement is exactly what you pointed out. They won't be making any sudden moves regarding balance anymore.
I think this means to a certain degree that they are allocating resources from WoL towards HotS. From this statement I sort of gather that they are now going into crunch time for finalizing HotS for public beta. This might just be wishful thinking but hey, gotta have hope.
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On April 27 2012 21:43 marvellosity wrote:
These things make me laugh... being dodging EMPs, getting storms off, dodging snipes (with our much slower non-cloakable HTs), micro colossi away from vikings, blink/micro/position stalkers to target vikings, make sure our melee units get good surface area, guardian shield/forcefield.
Fun game no?
Underlined made me laugh haha. Thats like claiming stimming is something hard that terrans have to do.
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On April 27 2012 21:51 Hypemeup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 21:43 marvellosity wrote:
These things make me laugh... being dodging EMPs, getting storms off, dodging snipes (with our much slower non-cloakable HTs), micro colossi away from vikings, blink/micro/position stalkers to target vikings, make sure our melee units get good surface area, guardian shield/forcefield.
Fun game no? Underlined made me laugh haha. Thats like claiming stimming is something hard that terrans have to do.
I don't see why that would make you laugh.
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On April 27 2012 21:30 Destructicon wrote:Now can you tell me with a straight face and looking into my eyes that Blizzard hasn't fucked up the balance and has rushed it?
It depends on what their stated goal is. I actually think they've done a fairly good job making the game balanced, but in the process of doing so we've ended up with matchups that are kinda boring, especially in the late game. The Thor in particular was probably the biggest case of them reacting too soon. That strat was only around for a few weeks and Thors weren't even necessarily the problem (hi BFH), if there even was a problem to begin with. It's kind of a shame because it was a cool push.
They don't do such big fuckups all that often though. Ghosts were kind of out of control. Yes the nerf didn't seem thought through, but no MVP wasn't the only one abusing them. Look no further than ThorZaIN again, he even massing them before MVP IIRC. Speaking of ThorZaIN, he supposedly doesn't think there's a problem with lategame TvP.
In any case, all the balance is going to get uprooted with HotS anyway, so fuck it. It will be like the beta all over again.
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On April 27 2012 19:58 MorroW wrote:
alot of people are talking about tvp lategame, i dont know if i really share this opinion after watching a few top notch terrans just never ever getting hit by a money storm all game long.
tvz asks you to never get hit by bane mines or huge bane connects, no money fungals or full surrounds, i dont see how the micro control against protoss to deal with storm can be so much harder than that. it feels like both are extremely hard to pull off but definitively possible.
In effect the difference is the chargelots+archons I'd say. They just rape face to much unless you kite. Kiting just adds so much APM requirement to the terran, that controlling your ghosts and vikings becomes a nightmare. The difference this adds is insane. Furtheremore, vZ you can presplit your army and get into a solid position, so aoe is less effective/threatening. This is just not the case for vP. Then we add onto it the reinforcement difference, where you are finally through the mineral units of the protoss and then 20 new chargelots come and reinforce the finally naked gas portion of the toss's army.
I'd go so far as to say it is easy to fight Zerg lategame compared to toss lategame.
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David Kim! Your numbers even imply TvP needs fixing but you say nothing regarding it! Wtf Mr.Kim?
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I missed the DeMusliM part.
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On April 27 2012 21:43 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 11:27 Jaegeru wrote:On April 27 2012 11:17 windsupernova wrote:On April 27 2012 11:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Every time David Kim does one of these, the community takes it as an opportunity to QQ. For the love of god, stop doing these Blizz. Haha this. Its especially baffling considering that now most of the QQ comes from T who.... are half and half with P in Code S, won Dreamhack, and last MLG? P lategame may be powerful but the MU is obviously winnable. That may be true but as demuslim said on stream it seems unfair that terran has to do so many more things than protoss being dodging storm's, getting emp's off, sniping templar, microing vikings and microing bio. Whereas protoss has to split templars, try hit a storm and focus vikings when they can.Don't misinterpret this as balance whine I'm just pointing out that you have to be so fast and have crazy apm to win. it's winnable if you play really well. These things make me laugh... being dodging EMPs, getting storms off, dodging snipes (with our much slower non-cloakable HTs), micro colossi away from vikings, blink/micro/position stalkers to target vikings, make sure our melee units get good surface area, guardian shield/forcefield.Fun game no?
Laughable but what you said is more about pre-battle position and is less involving and more forgiving than in battle micro.
Keeping your zealots in front, easy, just juggle control groups, if you fail, just blink your stalkers behind the zealots.
Dodging EMPs, not nearly as big an issue as storms since EMP can only kill a maximum of 1/3rd of your HP and you don't get shield armor till very, very late in the game, storm kills HP directly and can outright obliterate armies.
Getting storms off, easy split HT in 2-3 group, 2-4 in the back, 4-6 on the flanks of your army. MM can kite, ghosts can't if they come in front to EMP they risk losing them, once ghosts are dead just bring you HT forward and EMP.
Dodge snipes, easy bring 2 HT forward, do 2 storms and morph Archon.
Make sure melee units get surface area, that isn't as hard as it sounds given you can blink stalkers behind zealots, colossus can be walked trough, and you don't want to attack into a choke or a bad angle, which is common sense.
Guardian shields and force fields are fire and forget, you use them and then you don't do anything else any more.
Now let me tell you how things go for terran, from the beginning to the end of the battle you must stutter step micro, to maximize the survivability of your army, you must constantly split your army while stutter step to dodge storms, you must at the same time manage ghosts to EMP, cloak and snipe, at the same time you must juggle your vikings back and forth to kill colossus.
How it happens for toss. You charge your zealots in front and forget about them, you FF and Guardian shield then forget about them, you move HT forward, storm, morhp into archon and forget about them. You don't need to focus fire your colossus. What you need to focus on, is to focus fire stalkers vs vikings, which is a small part of the multiple things that terran needs to do.
Oh I forgot to add that while microing constantly the terran also needs to macro, which for protoss its much, much easier given how many things are fire and forget.
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On April 27 2012 21:56 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 21:51 Hypemeup wrote:On April 27 2012 21:43 marvellosity wrote:
These things make me laugh... being dodging EMPs, getting storms off, dodging snipes (with our much slower non-cloakable HTs), micro colossi away from vikings, blink/micro/position stalkers to target vikings, make sure our melee units get good surface area, guardian shield/forcefield.
Fun game no? Underlined made me laugh haha. Thats like claiming stimming is something hard that terrans have to do. You miss the funny part, it is where for everything he says, the Terran already put just as much effort into it. Cast EMPs, dodge storms, cast snipes, target collosi with vikings, stim/micro positioning to minimise AoE damage, make sure you got a wide arc, load up/drop micro after forcefields Fun game no?
The fun part is that those are things terrans are actually forced to do while things like making sure melee units get good surface area is 1A 8)
Edit: Assuming the protoss is not handicapped and still dont understand that you have your zealots in front of your army.
Fun game indeed, but I will leave it to those that think it matters c(=
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overall terran is in a good place.
Really? As a Protoss, it seems to me that Terran are definitely not in a good place. They either crush you in the early game, or get to late game and get rolled over. It seems that unless you have as good storm dodges as MKP, the usual TvP style of MMM+Ghost+Viking will die to a lategame deathball.
That said, MMM at the first 2 medivacs rolls over Protoss until they get the first colossus out. I don't think a matchup which fluctuates that heavily can leave Terran in "a good place." Especially when you consider all the not-quite-allin builds they can do against other races - 1-1-1 comes to mind.
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It's just remarkable that Terran's tier 1 units can't win lategame versus Protoss's tier 2 and tier 3. David Kim must be blind or else he would have fixed this by now.
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We are concerned that protoss players seem to be having a slower start compared to zerg or terran players. For quite some time after StarCraft II was released, especially at the highest levels of professional play, protoss players were primarily only focusing on 1 base or 2 base warp gate all-ins. It was only after we toned down these builds that protoss players really started exploring their various tech options in the same way that the other two races have been doing for a long time.
He's so right about this..
Protoss never have been creative untill recently.
They were just whining because their warpgate allin's didn't work anymore
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On April 27 2012 22:04 jdsowa wrote:
It's just remarkable that Terran's tier 1 units can't win lategame versus Protoss's tier 2 and tier 3. David Kim must be blind or else he would have fixed this by now.
Well yeah, fix it so I can actually use t3(it's actually t1, t1.5 and t2 units) if we are going to compare armies by which tier they are gotten. I'd personally love to use thors or battlecruisers if they didn't get hard countered by t1,t1.5 and t2 units(with tier 3 units just adding into the hard counter if the toss feels the need to even go there).
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On April 27 2012 22:04 jdsowa wrote:
It's just remarkable that Terran's tier 1 units can't win lategame versus Protoss's tier 2 and tier 3. David Kim must be blind or else he would have fixed this by now.
even to a zerg player, it's pretty obvious that their tier 2 and 3 units won't do much better
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Australia18228 Posts
I think the main problem with TvP is the macro capabilities of Terran. Protoss are able to focus all their attention on making sure everything in the battle goes correctly, while the Terran has to also keep an eye on his production facilties or risk missing a round of production.
PartinG is one of those players who macro extremely well and you can see his minerals always under 300 (after warp-in rounds) and if you watch his games vs MKP/Polt/TheStC, you can see how the Terrans just start to macro worse once the action (i.e back-and-forth fights) starts, all the while PartinG is just spamming Zealots while using all his gas for tech.
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On April 27 2012 22:09 eXeHephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +We are concerned that protoss players seem to be having a slower start compared to zerg or terran players. For quite some time after StarCraft II was released, especially at the highest levels of professional play, protoss players were primarily only focusing on 1 base or 2 base warp gate all-ins. It was only after we toned down these builds that protoss players really started exploring their various tech options in the same way that the other two races have been doing for a long time. He's so right about this.. Protoss never have been creative untill recently. They were just whining because their warpgate allin's didn't work anymore
Well, Toss is slow early game, because they are very sentry reliant, notice how almost all early or mid game attacks that a protoss commits to, requires 6-10 sentries to work, otherwise they can't get stuff done. To me the sentry and its FF is holding the race back. The game is balanced around that but it has the downside of making the Protoss army the most ball prone of them all, its just stronger if its together.
On a similar vein WG is causing problems because it negates logistics and rush distances, it needs a kind of nerf somewhere. If you nerf both WG and sentries/FF, you can buff GW units a bit and you can encourage more early game skirmishes.
One more problem, stalkers can too easily kite and kill marines, this discourages micro and certain early game attacks and small scale skirmishes. A fix would be to make Stalker range 5 with an +1 range upgrade, or too make stalkers slower, that way they can still kite and hit and run, but they can't do so without taking any damage at all.
If you want to go the route of reduce stalker range to 5 you'd have to reduce marauder range to 5 and give it +1 range trough conc shells.
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The game really seems balanced as of a lately or at very least, haven't seen any topics on the forums complaining about balance and B.Net I assume doesn't count (ke-ke).
If they (David Kim) (*cough* *cough*) introduces some aid to Z's early scout, that IMO will make the game that much more predictable for Zs. As of now there is still too much guess work involved. It's often seen how even the best Zs in the world (DRG) (*cough* *cough*) loose game on regular basis, due to playing in the dark from the get-go.
Props to David Kim for achieving the current state of the game - I thought it was impossible to so and for the strength to not make bold changes in the beginning when the cry was outrageous.
Edit: typo
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I think the most important number are for Korean, where the level is hte highest
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I agree but then again, I never complain about balance. The better players will adapt eventually in any case.
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On April 27 2012 11:42 usethis2 wrote:
Despite the TvP late game, TvZ late game, and PvZ volatility, you have to hand it to Blizzard. Compared to the situation the game was in 2 years ago, the races are much more balanced today. And it will only get better.
I personally think Blizzard is doing a very good job at balancing. Impatient voices will always ring loud every other week when one race's showing is weak - my advice for them is to be patient. It is also foolish to think that Blizzard lacks the data or tool to measure the state of the game, balance-wise. Criticism such as "OMG they balance for the bronze," is completely misplaced.
my thoughts exactly!
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