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I honestly don't believe you did anything significantly wrong. You said something bad, but not on an EG stream, not even when you were working for EG. (before that) I'm sure you'll find more work in the community. Good luck.
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On March 10 2012 14:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 13:49 Probasaur wrote:
See the problem is you live in your world of definitions and preconceived rules and regulations. I live according to my life not according to how anyone lived or acted before me. I don't use that word anymore, actually cant remember the last time I did, but when I used to play Halo I would spout it as much as any random insult. Obviously I can't see if they're black or not, and obviously I was just spouting negativity. You can say he was being a negative person, and putting a bad vibe out there. But you can't say he was being racist.
Keep living according to what people tell you how to live and don't ever even think to judge the world around you subjectively. Keep living in the objective preconceived world that the hate filled people left behind for you. Its called evolution. I've clearly evolved beyond racism and there is only one race, the human race. And I choose to live my life free of hate, I recognize anger as an abstract emotion and if you allow yourself to see it in this way than its nearly impossible to hold a grudge. Therefore ANY "bad word" regardless of what a dictionary or your Daddy tells you it means, cannot hold any significance to me. Just like your belittling of my beliefs holds no significance. I just hope you can take the smallest amount out of what I'm writing to you. Grow up. You don't get to just declare that everyone else is just sheep. You're spouting nonsense, and you have some kind of crazy idea that you're different. I've got news for you, you're not different, you're just to ignorant to understand that. We all live in the same world, with the same laws of reality, you can't just rewrite how language works because you want to. Your ignorance is astounding. "I've evolved beyond racism" is probably the most arrogant comment I've ever heard. You don't 'evolve' out of racism, you learn about it, you educate yourself, and you make a conscious decision to behave in a fashion that involves no discrimination based on race. And no, I can't say he was being racist, but I can say he was either being racist or behaving like a moronic boor, which is the only explanation for someone speaking like that.
I don't need to make a conscious decision to not be racist. Its like saying I need to decide whether or not I'm a girl or a guy. I'm just naturally a penis wielding person. Racism is not a concept that my life is in away way affected by!! Simply because you are does not mean I'm supposed to bring myself down to your level. I'll continue to live life on my terms and you can continue to live in a cloud of hate and telling yourself you need to be good because its the right thing to do in our society, not because you're naturally good.
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Fortunately the community is being sincere about it. I personally don't believe using that word online shows any incentive of racism (though it is definitely not courteous and even vulgar). The ladder system combined with alcohol does cause rage sometimes, so apology accepted brohanno.
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I'm glad orb is taking this as a growing experience, and I hope he comes back to casting or SC2 in some other fashion soon, and that we can all forgive his actions and love the new orb. Good luck and thank you for the refreshingly honest response, orb, and I hope you don't receive a lot more rage. And thanks EG for helping him through this, by being professional and manner.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 10 2012 14:32 Probasaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 13:49 Probasaur wrote:
See the problem is you live in your world of definitions and preconceived rules and regulations. I live according to my life not according to how anyone lived or acted before me. I don't use that word anymore, actually cant remember the last time I did, but when I used to play Halo I would spout it as much as any random insult. Obviously I can't see if they're black or not, and obviously I was just spouting negativity. You can say he was being a negative person, and putting a bad vibe out there. But you can't say he was being racist.
Keep living according to what people tell you how to live and don't ever even think to judge the world around you subjectively. Keep living in the objective preconceived world that the hate filled people left behind for you. Its called evolution. I've clearly evolved beyond racism and there is only one race, the human race. And I choose to live my life free of hate, I recognize anger as an abstract emotion and if you allow yourself to see it in this way than its nearly impossible to hold a grudge. Therefore ANY "bad word" regardless of what a dictionary or your Daddy tells you it means, cannot hold any significance to me. Just like your belittling of my beliefs holds no significance. I just hope you can take the smallest amount out of what I'm writing to you. Grow up. You don't get to just declare that everyone else is just sheep. You're spouting nonsense, and you have some kind of crazy idea that you're different. I've got news for you, you're not different, you're just to ignorant to understand that. We all live in the same world, with the same laws of reality, you can't just rewrite how language works because you want to. Your ignorance is astounding. "I've evolved beyond racism" is probably the most arrogant comment I've ever heard. You don't 'evolve' out of racism, you learn about it, you educate yourself, and you make a conscious decision to behave in a fashion that involves no discrimination based on race. And no, I can't say he was being racist, but I can say he was either being racist or behaving like a moronic boor, which is the only explanation for someone speaking like that. I don't need to make a conscious decision to not be racist. Its like saying I need to decide whether or not I'm a girl or a guy. I'm just naturally a penis wielding person. Racism is not a concept that my life is in away way affected by!! Simply because you are does not mean I'm supposed to bring myself down to your level. I'll continue to live life on my terms and you can continue to live in a cloud of hate and telling yourself you need to be good because its the right thing to do in our society, not because you're naturally good.
Your gender is not an idea or point of view. Being racist is a point of view (a wrong one), and it's an idea. You either accept the idea that another race is inferior or you do not. The correct answer is to not do that, racism is awful. But nobody is naturally racist or naturally not racist, you continue to astound me with your complete lack of understanding on this issue, and your arrogance is unbelievable. You are not 'naturally good', there is no such thing. A good person is a person who understands right and wrong and chooses right, not someone who inherently leans towards right blindly. You are not on some kind of moral high ground.
And your lack of understanding on how racism affects you is also astounding. Do you think that the systematic oppression of other races and cultures that permeates our society doesn't affect you? It's inherent in the very culture that we live in, EVERYONE is affected. The sooner we all understand this, the sooner we can fix the problem. Schmucks like you who like to pretend they are above everyone else and pretend it's not an issue because YOU TOO CAN EVOLVE PAST RACISM just make the problem worse by sweeping it under a rug.
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orb reminds me of mclovin when hes raging at that bum on the bus
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On March 10 2012 14:30 Probasaur wrote:
Wow you just proved another point of mine. That words change meaning. Something in the previous page I was assaulted for believing. Thanks for doing all the work for me.
You're really comparing the past and present usage of bastard to the n-word? No one is arguing that words don't change in meaning over time. However, the two are nowhere near parity when it comes to commonly held meanings for the term. Maybe they will be some day, but they are not now.
Perhaps such an argument is considered too subtle, but often times subtlety more accurately represents a picture than extremism.
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On March 10 2012 08:51 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 08:09 Rombur wrote:On March 10 2012 07:39 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:14 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 07:08 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:04 HardlyNever wrote:
I just realized if Orb were black, this wouldn't have ever been an issue.
Is that racism? Nope. How is it not? If he were a different race, we would be treating him differently. Isn't that basically the definition of racism? Nope. User was warned for this post Of course, it is racism. How can you defend the opposite ? Two people saying the same thing are treated differently because of the color of their skin. I can't believe this actually has be explained but since so many of you are desperately confused: You're applying an extraordinarily simplistic, broad and crude definition of racism. According to your definition if a white person checked off 'African-American' on a form you couldn't correct them, because technically that would be treating them differently. It's a laughably strict understanding of the word which no sane person would ever use. The example which started this is also absurd. A black person would never call someone a 'nigger' at all, let alone as an insult. And yes, there is a massive distinction between 'nigger' and 'nigga' so please don't respond along that ridiculous line of reasoning. Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 08:24 ReignFayth wrote:
did some people truly believe he was being racist?
that would be funny, 1st level thinking When you repeatedly say racist things, people will think you're a racist. That concept too difficult for you?
No, actually you are just wrong, know it, and are trying to find away out of your illogical and untenable position. Black people would never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other? What? You have to be kidding me. You are either trolling, or haven't spent any real time with black people, ever.
And I didn't think it required explanation, but apparently it does. What I was getting at is that someone can use a "racist" term, without being racist, because with all language context is everything. I'm not saying what orb did was right, but I'm simply stating what should be an obvious fact: context always matters with language, no matter what. Orb didn't know if the person he was talking to was black, so therefore using the "literal" definition of the word doesn't work at all here. Again, that doesn't make it right, but it also means it isn't racist.
Again though, I think you are trolling me, or really have no clue about black people or race relations, based on your previous statement.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 10 2012 14:46 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 08:51 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 08:09 Rombur wrote:On March 10 2012 07:39 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:14 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 07:08 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:04 HardlyNever wrote:
I just realized if Orb were black, this wouldn't have ever been an issue.
Is that racism? Nope. How is it not? If he were a different race, we would be treating him differently. Isn't that basically the definition of racism? Nope. User was warned for this post Of course, it is racism. How can you defend the opposite ? Two people saying the same thing are treated differently because of the color of their skin. I can't believe this actually has be explained but since so many of you are desperately confused: You're applying an extraordinarily simplistic, broad and crude definition of racism. According to your definition if a white person checked off 'African-American' on a form you couldn't correct them, because technically that would be treating them differently. It's a laughably strict understanding of the word which no sane person would ever use. The example which started this is also absurd. A black person would never call someone a 'nigger' at all, let alone as an insult. And yes, there is a massive distinction between 'nigger' and 'nigga' so please don't respond along that ridiculous line of reasoning. On March 10 2012 08:24 ReignFayth wrote:
did some people truly believe he was being racist?
that would be funny, 1st level thinking When you repeatedly say racist things, people will think you're a racist. That concept too difficult for you? No, actually you are just wrong, know it, and are trying to find away out of your illogical and untenable position. Black people would never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other? What? You have to be kidding me. You are either trolling, or haven't spent any real time with black people, ever. And I didn't think it required explanation, but apparently it does. What I was getting at is that someone can use a "racist" term, without being racist, because with all language context is everything. I'm not saying what orb did was right, but I'm simply stating what should be an obvious fact: context always matters with language, no matter what. Orb didn't know if the person he was talking to was black, so therefore using the "literal" definition of the word doesn't work at all here. Again, that doesn't make it right, but it also means it isn't racist. Again though, I think you are trolling me, or really have no clue about black people or race relations, based on your previous statement.
Study some linguistics, he made an excellent point but it's one that will probably go over the heads of most people, as they simply don't know some important, relevant information (not that I blame you for not understanding it, it would have gone over my head as well had I not taken some linguistics courses in college):
African American Vernacular English is a similar but different language than American English which is spoken by much of the black community in this country. 'nigga' is a word in that language which has a completely different meaning than 'nigger' (it's more along the lines of the slang 'bro' rather than the hateful racist word). African Americans often refer to each other with 'nigga', but they never use 'nigger'.
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Sorry to see this happen. I've met and worked with you before. Thought you a fine nerd.
Hope you pick yourself up 
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sall good bro. mistakes happen
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On March 10 2012 14:52 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:46 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 08:51 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 08:09 Rombur wrote:On March 10 2012 07:39 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:14 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 07:08 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:04 HardlyNever wrote:
I just realized if Orb were black, this wouldn't have ever been an issue.
Is that racism? Nope. How is it not? If he were a different race, we would be treating him differently. Isn't that basically the definition of racism? Nope. User was warned for this post Of course, it is racism. How can you defend the opposite ? Two people saying the same thing are treated differently because of the color of their skin. I can't believe this actually has be explained but since so many of you are desperately confused: You're applying an extraordinarily simplistic, broad and crude definition of racism. According to your definition if a white person checked off 'African-American' on a form you couldn't correct them, because technically that would be treating them differently. It's a laughably strict understanding of the word which no sane person would ever use. The example which started this is also absurd. A black person would never call someone a 'nigger' at all, let alone as an insult. And yes, there is a massive distinction between 'nigger' and 'nigga' so please don't respond along that ridiculous line of reasoning. On March 10 2012 08:24 ReignFayth wrote:
did some people truly believe he was being racist?
that would be funny, 1st level thinking When you repeatedly say racist things, people will think you're a racist. That concept too difficult for you? No, actually you are just wrong, know it, and are trying to find away out of your illogical and untenable position. Black people would never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other? What? You have to be kidding me. You are either trolling, or haven't spent any real time with black people, ever. And I didn't think it required explanation, but apparently it does. What I was getting at is that someone can use a "racist" term, without being racist, because with all language context is everything. I'm not saying what orb did was right, but I'm simply stating what should be an obvious fact: context always matters with language, no matter what. Orb didn't know if the person he was talking to was black, so therefore using the "literal" definition of the word doesn't work at all here. Again, that doesn't make it right, but it also means it isn't racist. Again though, I think you are trolling me, or really have no clue about black people or race relations, based on your previous statement. Study some linguistics, he made an excellent point but it's one that will probably go over the heads of most people, as they simply don't know some important, relevant information (not that I blame you for not understanding it, it would have gone over my head as well had I not taken some linguistics courses in college): African American Vernacular English is a similar but different language than American English which is spoken by much of the black community in this country. 'nigga' is a word in that language which has a completely different meaning than 'nigger' (it's more along the lines of the slang 'bro' rather than the hateful racist word). African Americans often refer to each other with 'nigga', but they never use 'nigger'.
Wow, holy crap. Really? Is this some troll conspiracy? I think you people must have grown up where there aren't black people or something. I'm not talking about "nigga" as in "he's my nigga" or anything like that. I'm talking about one black person talking about another black person and saying something to the effect of "he's acting like a dumb nigger" or "he's just a stupid nigger." I've heard black people say this, about other black people, multiple times, around a mixed group.
I grew up in the south (just outside of Atlanta) where mixed groups of white/black people are extremely common. I'm not saying "I totally get black people inside and out now," but being in racially mixed groups with "racially" charged language on for all races is a common occurrence in the south. If you really think black people never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other, you are naive beyond hope for me. I really don't know how else to say it. You "took a linguistics course?" Are you kidding me? You needed a linguistics course to tell you the difference between "nigga" and "nigger?" You have to be trolling at this point. You got me.
The only approximation you might be able to relate to (again, I'm assuming you live in a place where racially mixed groups aren't common( I didn't think places liked this still existed in the US til I moved to Indiana lol), as that has to be the case in order for you to really believe such an ignorant stance) would be one white person calling another white person "poor white trash."
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On March 10 2012 13:50 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 12:54 Daogin wrote:
Who knew sheer words could destroy people. Shakespeare to Nietzche to Mein Kampf. Were you not aware of the power of language?
it was more of a sarcastic remark to people making to big of a deal over something so little.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 10 2012 15:02 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:52 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 14:46 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 08:51 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 08:09 Rombur wrote:On March 10 2012 07:39 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:14 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 07:08 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:04 HardlyNever wrote:
I just realized if Orb were black, this wouldn't have ever been an issue.
Is that racism? Nope. How is it not? If he were a different race, we would be treating him differently. Isn't that basically the definition of racism? Nope. User was warned for this post Of course, it is racism. How can you defend the opposite ? Two people saying the same thing are treated differently because of the color of their skin. I can't believe this actually has be explained but since so many of you are desperately confused: You're applying an extraordinarily simplistic, broad and crude definition of racism. According to your definition if a white person checked off 'African-American' on a form you couldn't correct them, because technically that would be treating them differently. It's a laughably strict understanding of the word which no sane person would ever use. The example which started this is also absurd. A black person would never call someone a 'nigger' at all, let alone as an insult. And yes, there is a massive distinction between 'nigger' and 'nigga' so please don't respond along that ridiculous line of reasoning. On March 10 2012 08:24 ReignFayth wrote:
did some people truly believe he was being racist?
that would be funny, 1st level thinking When you repeatedly say racist things, people will think you're a racist. That concept too difficult for you? No, actually you are just wrong, know it, and are trying to find away out of your illogical and untenable position. Black people would never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other? What? You have to be kidding me. You are either trolling, or haven't spent any real time with black people, ever. And I didn't think it required explanation, but apparently it does. What I was getting at is that someone can use a "racist" term, without being racist, because with all language context is everything. I'm not saying what orb did was right, but I'm simply stating what should be an obvious fact: context always matters with language, no matter what. Orb didn't know if the person he was talking to was black, so therefore using the "literal" definition of the word doesn't work at all here. Again, that doesn't make it right, but it also means it isn't racist. Again though, I think you are trolling me, or really have no clue about black people or race relations, based on your previous statement. Study some linguistics, he made an excellent point but it's one that will probably go over the heads of most people, as they simply don't know some important, relevant information (not that I blame you for not understanding it, it would have gone over my head as well had I not taken some linguistics courses in college): African American Vernacular English is a similar but different language than American English which is spoken by much of the black community in this country. 'nigga' is a word in that language which has a completely different meaning than 'nigger' (it's more along the lines of the slang 'bro' rather than the hateful racist word). African Americans often refer to each other with 'nigga', but they never use 'nigger'. Wow, holy crap. Really? Is this some troll conspiracy? I think you people must have grown up where there aren't black people or something. I'm not talking about "nigga" as in "he's my nigga" or anything like that. I'm talking about one black person talking about another black person and saying something to the effect of "he's acting like a dumb nigger" or "he's just a stupid nigger." I've heard black people say this, about other black people, multiple times, around a mixed group. I grew up in the south (just outside of Atlanta) where mixed groups of white/black people are extremely common. I'm not saying "I totally get black people inside and out now," but being in racially mixed groups with "racially" charged language on for all races is a common occurrence in the south. If you really think black people never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other, you are naive beyond hope for me. I really don't know how else to say it. You "took a linguistics course?" Are you kidding me? You needed a linguistics course to tell you the difference between "nigga" and "nigger?" You have to be trolling at this point. You got me. The only approximation you might be able to relate to (again, I'm assuming you live in a place where racially mixed groups aren't common( I didn't think places liked this still existed in the US til I moved to Indiana lol), as that has to be the case in order for you to really believe such an ignorant stance) would be one white person calling another white person "poor white trash."
Where I live, there are plenty of mixed groups, they just tend to be better educated and more knowledgeable than the average southerner (not to be offensive, I'm not trying to lambaste the south, but it is a fact that education rates are much higher on average where I live than in Georgia), and I've never once heard them use the term in that way. That said, these people you are referring to are doing themselves a sincere disservice and helping to propagate a serious problem, but I bet you most of them would have a huge problem with anyone outside their culture using the word.
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On March 10 2012 15:09 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 15:02 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 14:52 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 14:46 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 08:51 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 08:09 Rombur wrote:On March 10 2012 07:39 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:14 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 07:08 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:04 HardlyNever wrote:
I just realized if Orb were black, this wouldn't have ever been an issue.
Is that racism? Nope. How is it not? If he were a different race, we would be treating him differently. Isn't that basically the definition of racism? Nope. User was warned for this post Of course, it is racism. How can you defend the opposite ? Two people saying the same thing are treated differently because of the color of their skin. I can't believe this actually has be explained but since so many of you are desperately confused: You're applying an extraordinarily simplistic, broad and crude definition of racism. According to your definition if a white person checked off 'African-American' on a form you couldn't correct them, because technically that would be treating them differently. It's a laughably strict understanding of the word which no sane person would ever use. The example which started this is also absurd. A black person would never call someone a 'nigger' at all, let alone as an insult. And yes, there is a massive distinction between 'nigger' and 'nigga' so please don't respond along that ridiculous line of reasoning. On March 10 2012 08:24 ReignFayth wrote:
did some people truly believe he was being racist?
that would be funny, 1st level thinking When you repeatedly say racist things, people will think you're a racist. That concept too difficult for you? No, actually you are just wrong, know it, and are trying to find away out of your illogical and untenable position. Black people would never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other? What? You have to be kidding me. You are either trolling, or haven't spent any real time with black people, ever. And I didn't think it required explanation, but apparently it does. What I was getting at is that someone can use a "racist" term, without being racist, because with all language context is everything. I'm not saying what orb did was right, but I'm simply stating what should be an obvious fact: context always matters with language, no matter what. Orb didn't know if the person he was talking to was black, so therefore using the "literal" definition of the word doesn't work at all here. Again, that doesn't make it right, but it also means it isn't racist. Again though, I think you are trolling me, or really have no clue about black people or race relations, based on your previous statement. Study some linguistics, he made an excellent point but it's one that will probably go over the heads of most people, as they simply don't know some important, relevant information (not that I blame you for not understanding it, it would have gone over my head as well had I not taken some linguistics courses in college): African American Vernacular English is a similar but different language than American English which is spoken by much of the black community in this country. 'nigga' is a word in that language which has a completely different meaning than 'nigger' (it's more along the lines of the slang 'bro' rather than the hateful racist word). African Americans often refer to each other with 'nigga', but they never use 'nigger'. Wow, holy crap. Really? Is this some troll conspiracy? I think you people must have grown up where there aren't black people or something. I'm not talking about "nigga" as in "he's my nigga" or anything like that. I'm talking about one black person talking about another black person and saying something to the effect of "he's acting like a dumb nigger" or "he's just a stupid nigger." I've heard black people say this, about other black people, multiple times, around a mixed group. I grew up in the south (just outside of Atlanta) where mixed groups of white/black people are extremely common. I'm not saying "I totally get black people inside and out now," but being in racially mixed groups with "racially" charged language on for all races is a common occurrence in the south. If you really think black people never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other, you are naive beyond hope for me. I really don't know how else to say it. You "took a linguistics course?" Are you kidding me? You needed a linguistics course to tell you the difference between "nigga" and "nigger?" You have to be trolling at this point. You got me. The only approximation you might be able to relate to (again, I'm assuming you live in a place where racially mixed groups aren't common( I didn't think places liked this still existed in the US til I moved to Indiana lol), as that has to be the case in order for you to really believe such an ignorant stance) would be one white person calling another white person "poor white trash." Where I live, there are plenty of mixed groups, they just tend to be better educated and more knowledgeable than the average southerner (not to be offensive, I'm not trying to lambaste the south, but it is a fact that education rates are much higher on average where I live than in Georgia), and I've never once heard them use the term in that way. That said, these people you are referring to are doing themselves a sincere disservice and helping to propagate a serious problem, but I bet you most of them would have a huge problem with anyone outside their culture using the word.
I'm going to let the irony of this statement sink in. But it probably won't get there, based on your last few posts.
P.S. I'm about to finish two Masters degrees in May. My bachelors came from a history department headed by this guy:
http://history.uga.edu/people/people.php?page=29
and yes, I took his courses. But I'm sure you're "more educated" than me on the subject.
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On March 10 2012 14:52 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:46 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 08:51 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 08:09 Rombur wrote:On March 10 2012 07:39 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:14 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 07:08 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:04 HardlyNever wrote:
I just realized if Orb were black, this wouldn't have ever been an issue.
Is that racism? Nope. How is it not? If he were a different race, we would be treating him differently. Isn't that basically the definition of racism? Nope. User was warned for this post Of course, it is racism. How can you defend the opposite ? Two people saying the same thing are treated differently because of the color of their skin. I can't believe this actually has be explained but since so many of you are desperately confused: You're applying an extraordinarily simplistic, broad and crude definition of racism. According to your definition if a white person checked off 'African-American' on a form you couldn't correct them, because technically that would be treating them differently. It's a laughably strict understanding of the word which no sane person would ever use. The example which started this is also absurd. A black person would never call someone a 'nigger' at all, let alone as an insult. And yes, there is a massive distinction between 'nigger' and 'nigga' so please don't respond along that ridiculous line of reasoning. On March 10 2012 08:24 ReignFayth wrote:
did some people truly believe he was being racist?
that would be funny, 1st level thinking When you repeatedly say racist things, people will think you're a racist. That concept too difficult for you? No, actually you are just wrong, know it, and are trying to find away out of your illogical and untenable position. Black people would never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other? What? You have to be kidding me. You are either trolling, or haven't spent any real time with black people, ever. And I didn't think it required explanation, but apparently it does. What I was getting at is that someone can use a "racist" term, without being racist, because with all language context is everything. I'm not saying what orb did was right, but I'm simply stating what should be an obvious fact: context always matters with language, no matter what. Orb didn't know if the person he was talking to was black, so therefore using the "literal" definition of the word doesn't work at all here. Again, that doesn't make it right, but it also means it isn't racist. Again though, I think you are trolling me, or really have no clue about black people or race relations, based on your previous statement. Study some linguistics, he made an excellent point but it's one that will probably go over the heads of most people, as they simply don't know some important, relevant information (not that I blame you for not understanding it, it would have gone over my head as well had I not taken some linguistics courses in college):
Pretty sure the guy telling me to stop having a false sense of superiority should quit telling people to "study some linguistics". As if that makes you a master and elected judge on the subject. You really need to stop living life based on what you hear and see solely and start listening to your... for the lack of a better term... your gut.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 10 2012 15:17 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 15:09 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 15:02 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 14:52 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 14:46 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 08:51 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 08:09 Rombur wrote:On March 10 2012 07:39 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:14 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 07:08 Silvertine wrote:
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Nope. How is it not? If he were a different race, we would be treating him differently. Isn't that basically the definition of racism? Nope. User was warned for this post Of course, it is racism. How can you defend the opposite ? Two people saying the same thing are treated differently because of the color of their skin. I can't believe this actually has be explained but since so many of you are desperately confused: You're applying an extraordinarily simplistic, broad and crude definition of racism. According to your definition if a white person checked off 'African-American' on a form you couldn't correct them, because technically that would be treating them differently. It's a laughably strict understanding of the word which no sane person would ever use. The example which started this is also absurd. A black person would never call someone a 'nigger' at all, let alone as an insult. And yes, there is a massive distinction between 'nigger' and 'nigga' so please don't respond along that ridiculous line of reasoning. On March 10 2012 08:24 ReignFayth wrote:
did some people truly believe he was being racist?
that would be funny, 1st level thinking When you repeatedly say racist things, people will think you're a racist. That concept too difficult for you? No, actually you are just wrong, know it, and are trying to find away out of your illogical and untenable position. Black people would never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other? What? You have to be kidding me. You are either trolling, or haven't spent any real time with black people, ever. And I didn't think it required explanation, but apparently it does. What I was getting at is that someone can use a "racist" term, without being racist, because with all language context is everything. I'm not saying what orb did was right, but I'm simply stating what should be an obvious fact: context always matters with language, no matter what. Orb didn't know if the person he was talking to was black, so therefore using the "literal" definition of the word doesn't work at all here. Again, that doesn't make it right, but it also means it isn't racist. Again though, I think you are trolling me, or really have no clue about black people or race relations, based on your previous statement. Study some linguistics, he made an excellent point but it's one that will probably go over the heads of most people, as they simply don't know some important, relevant information (not that I blame you for not understanding it, it would have gone over my head as well had I not taken some linguistics courses in college): African American Vernacular English is a similar but different language than American English which is spoken by much of the black community in this country. 'nigga' is a word in that language which has a completely different meaning than 'nigger' (it's more along the lines of the slang 'bro' rather than the hateful racist word). African Americans often refer to each other with 'nigga', but they never use 'nigger'. Wow, holy crap. Really? Is this some troll conspiracy? I think you people must have grown up where there aren't black people or something. I'm not talking about "nigga" as in "he's my nigga" or anything like that. I'm talking about one black person talking about another black person and saying something to the effect of "he's acting like a dumb nigger" or "he's just a stupid nigger." I've heard black people say this, about other black people, multiple times, around a mixed group. I grew up in the south (just outside of Atlanta) where mixed groups of white/black people are extremely common. I'm not saying "I totally get black people inside and out now," but being in racially mixed groups with "racially" charged language on for all races is a common occurrence in the south. If you really think black people never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other, you are naive beyond hope for me. I really don't know how else to say it. You "took a linguistics course?" Are you kidding me? You needed a linguistics course to tell you the difference between "nigga" and "nigger?" You have to be trolling at this point. You got me. The only approximation you might be able to relate to (again, I'm assuming you live in a place where racially mixed groups aren't common( I didn't think places liked this still existed in the US til I moved to Indiana lol), as that has to be the case in order for you to really believe such an ignorant stance) would be one white person calling another white person "poor white trash." Where I live, there are plenty of mixed groups, they just tend to be better educated and more knowledgeable than the average southerner (not to be offensive, I'm not trying to lambaste the south, but it is a fact that education rates are much higher on average where I live than in Georgia), and I've never once heard them use the term in that way. That said, these people you are referring to are doing themselves a sincere disservice and helping to propagate a serious problem, but I bet you most of them would have a huge problem with anyone outside their culture using the word. I'm going to let the irony of this statement sink in. But it probably won't get there, based on your last few posts. P.S. I'm about to finish two Masters degrees in May. My bachelors came from a history department headed by this guy: http://history.uga.edu/people/people.php?page=29and yes, I took his courses. But I'm sure you're "more educated" than me on the subject.
Note I said "average southerner" not "every southerner", and there's not really any way to argue that, it's a fact, there are tons of studies on it. I also never said I was more educated than you, as I don't know your education, I was saying that the average person in this region of the country has more education than the average person in your part of the country, which was meant to imply that the use of the word is more common amongst lower education populations, and that the higher your education, the less likely you are to use extremely offensive language.
Regardless, your argument basically boils down to "Members of the minority group use the word to refer to each other, therefore it's okay for members of the majority group to use it.", which, I think, most people would disagree with.
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On March 10 2012 15:20 Probasaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:52 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 14:46 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 08:51 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 08:09 Rombur wrote:On March 10 2012 07:39 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:14 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 07:08 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:04 HardlyNever wrote:
I just realized if Orb were black, this wouldn't have ever been an issue.
Is that racism? Nope. How is it not? If he were a different race, we would be treating him differently. Isn't that basically the definition of racism? Nope. User was warned for this post Of course, it is racism. How can you defend the opposite ? Two people saying the same thing are treated differently because of the color of their skin. I can't believe this actually has be explained but since so many of you are desperately confused: You're applying an extraordinarily simplistic, broad and crude definition of racism. According to your definition if a white person checked off 'African-American' on a form you couldn't correct them, because technically that would be treating them differently. It's a laughably strict understanding of the word which no sane person would ever use. The example which started this is also absurd. A black person would never call someone a 'nigger' at all, let alone as an insult. And yes, there is a massive distinction between 'nigger' and 'nigga' so please don't respond along that ridiculous line of reasoning. On March 10 2012 08:24 ReignFayth wrote:
did some people truly believe he was being racist?
that would be funny, 1st level thinking When you repeatedly say racist things, people will think you're a racist. That concept too difficult for you? No, actually you are just wrong, know it, and are trying to find away out of your illogical and untenable position. Black people would never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other? What? You have to be kidding me. You are either trolling, or haven't spent any real time with black people, ever. And I didn't think it required explanation, but apparently it does. What I was getting at is that someone can use a "racist" term, without being racist, because with all language context is everything. I'm not saying what orb did was right, but I'm simply stating what should be an obvious fact: context always matters with language, no matter what. Orb didn't know if the person he was talking to was black, so therefore using the "literal" definition of the word doesn't work at all here. Again, that doesn't make it right, but it also means it isn't racist. Again though, I think you are trolling me, or really have no clue about black people or race relations, based on your previous statement. Study some linguistics, he made an excellent point but it's one that will probably go over the heads of most people, as they simply don't know some important, relevant information (not that I blame you for not understanding it, it would have gone over my head as well had I not taken some linguistics courses in college): Pretty sure the guy telling me to stop having a false sense of superiority should quit telling people to "study some linguistics". As if that makes you a master and elected judge on the subject. You really need to stop living life based on what you hear and see solely and start listening to your... for the lack of a better term... your gut.
Probasaur your stance is dangerously naive and simultaneously incredibly arrogant which makes it so alarming to me as someone concerned about race issues.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=buried-prejudice-the-bigot-in-your-brain
or do any kind of research about implicit bias.
and some more perspective on the effects of racist words/jokes/remarks more directly related to orb's situation:
http://finenessandaccuracy.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/i-dont-care-if-youre-offended/
EDIT: I'm directly referring to this:
"I don't need to make a conscious decision to not be racist. Its like saying I need to decide whether or not I'm a girl or a guy. I'm just naturally a penis wielding person. Racism is not a concept that my life is in away way affected by!! Simply because you are does not mean I'm supposed to bring myself down to your level. I'll continue to live life on my terms and you can continue to live in a cloud of hate and telling yourself you need to be good because its the right thing to do in our society, not because you're naturally good."
is so wrong and naive I don't even know where to begin. please read what I've linked.
EDIT2: I just realized the SA article I'm linking might not be available to some people. I regret this but just google/read studies on implicit biases, we're soaking in them
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On March 10 2012 15:17 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 15:09 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 15:02 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 14:52 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 14:46 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 08:51 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 08:09 Rombur wrote:On March 10 2012 07:39 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:14 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 07:08 Silvertine wrote:
[quote]
Nope. How is it not? If he were a different race, we would be treating him differently. Isn't that basically the definition of racism? Nope. User was warned for this post Of course, it is racism. How can you defend the opposite ? Two people saying the same thing are treated differently because of the color of their skin. I can't believe this actually has be explained but since so many of you are desperately confused: You're applying an extraordinarily simplistic, broad and crude definition of racism. According to your definition if a white person checked off 'African-American' on a form you couldn't correct them, because technically that would be treating them differently. It's a laughably strict understanding of the word which no sane person would ever use. The example which started this is also absurd. A black person would never call someone a 'nigger' at all, let alone as an insult. And yes, there is a massive distinction between 'nigger' and 'nigga' so please don't respond along that ridiculous line of reasoning. On March 10 2012 08:24 ReignFayth wrote:
did some people truly believe he was being racist?
that would be funny, 1st level thinking When you repeatedly say racist things, people will think you're a racist. That concept too difficult for you? No, actually you are just wrong, know it, and are trying to find away out of your illogical and untenable position. Black people would never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other? What? You have to be kidding me. You are either trolling, or haven't spent any real time with black people, ever. And I didn't think it required explanation, but apparently it does. What I was getting at is that someone can use a "racist" term, without being racist, because with all language context is everything. I'm not saying what orb did was right, but I'm simply stating what should be an obvious fact: context always matters with language, no matter what. Orb didn't know if the person he was talking to was black, so therefore using the "literal" definition of the word doesn't work at all here. Again, that doesn't make it right, but it also means it isn't racist. Again though, I think you are trolling me, or really have no clue about black people or race relations, based on your previous statement. Study some linguistics, he made an excellent point but it's one that will probably go over the heads of most people, as they simply don't know some important, relevant information (not that I blame you for not understanding it, it would have gone over my head as well had I not taken some linguistics courses in college): African American Vernacular English is a similar but different language than American English which is spoken by much of the black community in this country. 'nigga' is a word in that language which has a completely different meaning than 'nigger' (it's more along the lines of the slang 'bro' rather than the hateful racist word). African Americans often refer to each other with 'nigga', but they never use 'nigger'. Wow, holy crap. Really? Is this some troll conspiracy? I think you people must have grown up where there aren't black people or something. I'm not talking about "nigga" as in "he's my nigga" or anything like that. I'm talking about one black person talking about another black person and saying something to the effect of "he's acting like a dumb nigger" or "he's just a stupid nigger." I've heard black people say this, about other black people, multiple times, around a mixed group. I grew up in the south (just outside of Atlanta) where mixed groups of white/black people are extremely common. I'm not saying "I totally get black people inside and out now," but being in racially mixed groups with "racially" charged language on for all races is a common occurrence in the south. If you really think black people never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other, you are naive beyond hope for me. I really don't know how else to say it. You "took a linguistics course?" Are you kidding me? You needed a linguistics course to tell you the difference between "nigga" and "nigger?" You have to be trolling at this point. You got me. The only approximation you might be able to relate to (again, I'm assuming you live in a place where racially mixed groups aren't common( I didn't think places liked this still existed in the US til I moved to Indiana lol), as that has to be the case in order for you to really believe such an ignorant stance) would be one white person calling another white person "poor white trash." Where I live, there are plenty of mixed groups, they just tend to be better educated and more knowledgeable than the average southerner (not to be offensive, I'm not trying to lambaste the south, but it is a fact that education rates are much higher on average where I live than in Georgia), and I've never once heard them use the term in that way. That said, these people you are referring to are doing themselves a sincere disservice and helping to propagate a serious problem, but I bet you most of them would have a huge problem with anyone outside their culture using the word. I'm going to let the irony of this statement sink in. But it probably won't get there, based on your last few posts. P.S. I'm about to finish two Masters degrees in May. My bachelors came from a history department headed by this guy: http://history.uga.edu/people/people.php?page=29and yes, I took his courses. But I'm sure you're "more educated" than me on the subject.
So you're arguing that there is no difference between a member of the majority using a racial slur against someone in a minority and a member of a minority using it against another member of that same minority? In the same derogatory fashion? That there are no different cultural dynamics that might make one more offensive than the other, or that they are each still really offensive? Would your professor be totally fine with two over-privileged white boys calling each other whatever the hell they want?
And Prob, please stop acting like you've contributed anything worthwhile to this subject. The notion that one should give up intellectual pursuits to listen to one's "gut" is so stupid there is a wildly popular Comedy Central show devoted to that ridiculous premise. Hint: It's hosted by Stephen Colbert.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 10 2012 15:20 Probasaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 14:52 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 14:46 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 08:51 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 08:09 Rombur wrote:On March 10 2012 07:39 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:14 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 07:08 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:04 HardlyNever wrote:
I just realized if Orb were black, this wouldn't have ever been an issue.
Is that racism? Nope. How is it not? If he were a different race, we would be treating him differently. Isn't that basically the definition of racism? Nope. User was warned for this post Of course, it is racism. How can you defend the opposite ? Two people saying the same thing are treated differently because of the color of their skin. I can't believe this actually has be explained but since so many of you are desperately confused: You're applying an extraordinarily simplistic, broad and crude definition of racism. According to your definition if a white person checked off 'African-American' on a form you couldn't correct them, because technically that would be treating them differently. It's a laughably strict understanding of the word which no sane person would ever use. The example which started this is also absurd. A black person would never call someone a 'nigger' at all, let alone as an insult. And yes, there is a massive distinction between 'nigger' and 'nigga' so please don't respond along that ridiculous line of reasoning. On March 10 2012 08:24 ReignFayth wrote:
did some people truly believe he was being racist?
that would be funny, 1st level thinking When you repeatedly say racist things, people will think you're a racist. That concept too difficult for you? No, actually you are just wrong, know it, and are trying to find away out of your illogical and untenable position. Black people would never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other? What? You have to be kidding me. You are either trolling, or haven't spent any real time with black people, ever. And I didn't think it required explanation, but apparently it does. What I was getting at is that someone can use a "racist" term, without being racist, because with all language context is everything. I'm not saying what orb did was right, but I'm simply stating what should be an obvious fact: context always matters with language, no matter what. Orb didn't know if the person he was talking to was black, so therefore using the "literal" definition of the word doesn't work at all here. Again, that doesn't make it right, but it also means it isn't racist. Again though, I think you are trolling me, or really have no clue about black people or race relations, based on your previous statement. Study some linguistics, he made an excellent point but it's one that will probably go over the heads of most people, as they simply don't know some important, relevant information (not that I blame you for not understanding it, it would have gone over my head as well had I not taken some linguistics courses in college): Pretty sure the guy telling me to stop having a false sense of superiority should quit telling people to "study some linguistics". As if that makes you a master and elected judge on the subject. You really need to stop living life based on what you hear and see solely and start listening to your... for the lack of a better term... your gut.
I'm telling you to study some linguistics because all of your assertions on how you can decide what a word means because language slowly changes over time are completely absurd, nonsensical for the most part, and completely unrepresentative of how reality works. You're making a claim as to how language works that is completely false, so I suggested you study the topic so you could learn how language actually works. That's not an issue of superiority, that's simply knowing something about a subject that comes from having spent time learning it. Saying "you're wrong, please spend some time reading up on the topic so that you can become informed" is not the same as saying "I'm a better person than you." I don't even know how you came up with this non-sequitur.That doesn't make me better than you, that just means that this time, in this particular topic, I know more about it. I'm not the one suggesting that I've "evolved past racism" or that I'm on some kind of moral high ground because I'm "naturally good" as if I was born this way. That DOES suggest some kind of superiority.
As for telling the other gentlemen to study it, I misinterpreted his previous post (which occasionally happens) and thought he meant something completely different, and we're in the process of discussing exactly that.
And the last thing someone should ever do is 'listen to their gut' when it comes to critically evaluating ideas. You think about it, logically and rationally, you don't go with some kind of random feeling and then try to explain to others that your idea is right because it feels good to you.
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