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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On March 10 2012 11:31 Bonkarooni wrote: Oh sorry, you didnt call them stupid, you just called them a bastard...much better. Sure it is. I'm not even questioning their intelligence. They're just conniving, cowardly bastards. | ||
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paintfive
785 Posts
On March 10 2012 11:02 DaemonX wrote: Actually you weren't wrong - Alex Garfield admitted he thought you were not actually racist. He's a hypocritical sanctimonious asshat, you have nothing to apologise for. How many, honestly HOW MANY people, especially those faux-PC reddit drama trolls, if you trawled through their entire history of every replay they had on ladder, custom, stream, skype snippets recorded, maybe their IM chat records, would not have comments similarly embaressing to be taken out of context? I mean even Mr Garfield, assuming his irritating rant about his own educational credentials and spotless personal ethics are face-value true, has many people in his employ that do not meet these standards. Idra is the most famous but far, far from the only example. Ever heard InControl talk? Baller chap, says stuff sometimes you could take out of context. Christ had a point with the whole 'those without sin casting the first stone' shebang, really he did. You my friend are a martyr of the free word. How can you say that with a straight face? Orb was caught using slurs in a hurtful manner repeatedly. Then he had the gall to continually deny that it wasn't him. Frankly, the denial part is what gets on my nerves the most. and raging on ladder is embarrassing. I laugh every time people bm me. just "gg" and gracefully leave. | ||
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Probasaur
United States461 Posts
I love wheat and I think he's one of the best as far as entertainment value goes for our humble little sport. But acting like this is an isolated incident is nonsense. None of this would be happening if Reddit foreveralone's didn't hate their own lives and make this not about racism but about an act of jealousy and pathetic intentions. I've seen many reddit threads where their outrage and activism of contacting sponsors is absolutely justified and warranted. But I honestly believe a bunch of kids who have their own inner demons battling racism, or sexism, or homophobia..... They think that if they have this holy-er than God persecution towards everyone who hardly does something negative that they need to go and crucify them. Making them feel like good people. Sounds like the idiotic Kony tools and it clearly is just people in r/starcraft who saw what happen to Limbaugh and thought "we can do that too I want to be an activist" then they contacted sponsors and started an unnecessary shitstorm. Congrats lil forever alone reddit starcraft kids. You just drove away a seriously professional and intelligible personality away from our humble little sport. Hope you're satisfied. | ||
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Ruski
United States15 Posts
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Probasaur
United States461 Posts
WOW. really? Really?.... Really?!??!!? What do you think he was gonna do when he knows the nature of the fake activists and holy-er than all that is the internet. Pitchforks first, compassion later. You kill a man and then say I hope he does well in his next life. Really | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
For some reason people are acting like the SC community is all holy and sanctimonius...when in reality, when you look at it from outside of what happened, the only reason this happened is because orb had a lot of haters that wanted to bring down his career and they obviously did. People are naive if they think that a lot of the other top pros/players are never BM online or are saints. There's lots of other of these "community figures" that are BM as hell but no one bats an eyelash. Was orb dumb to be using such words/lying about it? Yes. But jesus christ, he did not even say anything near this on the job, nor during casting professionally, nor was it even recent. The SC community thinks they did some righteous thing here when all they really did was beat down a dude so they can feel like they have some pull/weight in the community. At the cost of free speech too yes. Where are you going to draw the line? Are you guys going to start banning words from the dictionary and then start banning words from ladder, and not allow people to think what they want too? Let's look at this another way. Would anyone have batted an eyelash or even cared if orb was black? I highly, highly doubt it, and if there is an amazing black caster that happens to say the N word on his own time, do you seriously think anyone would even have the gaul to say he can't use the word? Do you think if there was a caster that good right now being hired for an event, that the company would be able to suddenly fire him because he's black and happens to use the N word every now and then in common speech in a different context? Hell no. That would actually be discriminiation. I think it basically comes down to, it was obviously not a good idea to use the N word because orb is a white dude and that is common sense. HE should not have lied about it obviously. But the saddest part is people really went to the length just to bring this guy down because of what? He raged in a ladder game? Seriously? The community has a lot of growing up to do. Yes, it's unacceptable to have racism and blatant slurs in the community, but it's about the context, and setting and that's what people need to realize. What should seem more unacceptable to me is these stupid witchhunts that bring people down for the most inane of things. Let's say this was another high profile caster that had a random ladder game of his taken...this would not have happened. Because they are already established enough in the community their fandom would come to defend them to the bitter end. But because this is a new caster, everyone is quick to jump on him and tear him down so fast... It's a bit sad really. Orb was wrong to lie, but the community is also wrong to do these random persecutions of community members. Just my 2 cents. | ||
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corpuscle
United States1967 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:27 avilo wrote: Let's look at this another way. Would anyone have batted an eyelash or even cared if orb was black? I highly, highly doubt it, and if there is an amazing black caster that happens to say the N word on his own time, do you seriously think anyone would even have the gaul to say he can't use the word? Do you think if there was a caster that good right now being hired for an event, that the company would be able to suddenly fire him because he's black and happens to use the N word every now and then in common speech in a different context? Hell no. That would actually be discriminiation. I'm black and I'm trying to be a caster (not likely but humor me), and I hope that if I called someone a "dumb nigger" on ladder someone would call me out for it and I wouldn't get off the hook because of the color of my skin. Please don't pretend that this is some sort of white persecution issue when it isn't, offensive language is offensive no matter who uses it. | ||
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sevencck
Canada698 Posts
I work at a university. Cheating in any way is wrong and can be punished harshly. Yet hundreds and hundreds of undergrads cheat, to the point where cheating has become almost casual in some ways. When one person is finally caught cheating, he is raked across the coals in a big way, and it isn't just because he was cheating, but it's also a reflection of the university wanting to make an example of someone and send a message. In other words, he becomes a scapegoat and bears the punishment for all those the university would love to catch in the act. It often isn't appropriate and in my opinion it's a bit of a problem. It sometimes comes across as the university trying to wash its hands of any possibility of being seen as too lenient on plagiarism. Now to the issue at hand. Derogatory language is OK by me, but racism and to a lesser extent sexism is wrong and can in fact be punished harshly (just like cheating can). The fact that you're using the N word so casually is offensive and ridiculous, as it is when any immature person does it (and many, many people do it quite casually). In your case it was made worse by the lies. Unfortunately for you, you're the one that's been caught and singled out. Despite the fact that you were doing something wrong, however, I don't agree with the overwhelming response raking you across the coals. What this looks like to me is a very immature community trying to wash its hands of any association with racism and throwing one of its formerly celebrated members under the bus in doing so. Hope everyone feels cleaner. Edit: Agree with Avilo | ||
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Klaus1986
United States113 Posts
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Probasaur
United States461 Posts
The people who were truly offended by this, not the drama whores fapping the flames because of a personal disliking of orb, the ones who actually felt obliged to speak out in protest because of their convictions to being "against racial slurs". Okay I'm glad that you hold your convictions strongly, no matter what the reason may be, that is your prerogative. But the main thing I want to express to you all is that just because you have a problem with something, doesn't mean everyone else does as well. And what you're doing is a form of throwing a temper tantrum and getting your way. Your convictions are just that, YOUR convictions. Do not make Orb, us the community, and the growth of esports be affected by your personal beliefs. Thats like me saying Starcraft doesn't is anti christian because it doesn't support a creationist theory and only supports evolution through minerals and upgrades. And then throwing a major shitstorm over it and dragging you all down with me because of MY convictions. Its an absurd example but I hope you grasp the main point I'm trying to draw for you. That is; People need to learn how to deal with their feelings internally more and not put their burdens onto everyone else and drag us down into your negativity spiral with you. Just because you cant see a word and not associate it with anything other than one of the worst forms of hate, doesn't mean thats how the rest of us see it. Its messed up I agree and this is actually the only curse word I don't use when ragequitting. But its not like I consciously try not to, I just don't because I know its just a bummer to use. I wish we could have had this conversation about ALL the people on the ladder using this word immaturely. But instead as always us and our 'cult of personality' culture needed to make an example of a celebrity and fap to their failure. Congrats on your success fail fappers. You brought down another one. Btw I love the point you made avilo about if Orb was black not a damn soul would have the balls to bring this up even to reddit. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:13 Probasaur wrote: Wheat had a show called, coincidentally, EG. Where him and his friends would talk all things game. Callers would call up and if they said something stupid djWheat and pals would go on to call him every name in the book. I love wheat and I think he's one of the best as far as entertainment value goes for our humble little sport. But acting like this is an isolated incident is nonsense. None of this would be happening if Reddit foreveralone's didn't hate their own lives and make this not about racism but about an act of jealousy and pathetic intentions. I've seen many reddit threads where their outrage and activism of contacting sponsors is absolutely justified and warranted. But I honestly believe a bunch of kids who have their own inner demons battling racism, or sexism, or homophobia..... They think that if they have this holy-er than God persecution towards everyone who hardly does something negative that they need to go and crucify them. Making them feel like good people. Sounds like the idiotic Kony tools and it clearly is just people in r/starcraft who saw what happen to Limbaugh and thought "we can do that too I want to be an activist" then they contacted sponsors and started an unnecessary shitstorm. Congrats lil forever alone reddit starcraft kids. You just drove away a seriously professional and intelligible personality away from our humble little sport. Hope you're satisfied. every single time ive heard wheat say an insult its been in a joking manner and has never gone overboard Orb was clearly angry and wanted his opponent to know that he was angry, that he blamed his opponent for him being angry and wanted his opponent to know how much he hated him and how he wanted to inconvenience his opponent as much as possible | ||
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Perseverance
Japan2800 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:41 sevencck wrote: I'll use cheating at a university as a metaphor. I work at a university. Cheating in any way is wrong and can be punished harshly. Yet hundreds and hundreds of undergrads cheat, to the point where cheating has become almost casual in some ways. When one person is finally caught cheating, he is raked across the coals in a big way, and it isn't just because he was cheating, but it's also a reflection of the university wanting to make an example of someone and send a message. In other words, he becomes a scapegoat and bears the punishment for all those the university would love to catch in the act. It often isn't appropriate and in my opinion it's a bit of a problem. It sometimes comes across as the university trying to wash its hands of any possibility of being seen as too lenient on plagiarism. Now to the issue at hand. Derogatory language is OK by me, but racism and to a lesser extent sexism is wrong and can in fact be punished harshly (just like cheating can). The fact that you're using the N word so casually is offensive and ridiculous, as it is when any immature person does it (and many, many people do it quite casually). In your case it was made worse by the lies. Unfortunately for you, you're the one that's been caught and singled out. Despite the fact that you were doing something wrong, however, I don't agree with the overwhelming response raking you across the coals. What this looks like to me is a very immature community trying to wash its hands of any association with racism and throwing one of its formerly celebrated members under the bus in doing so. Hope everyone feels cleaner. Edit: Agree with Avilo Celebrated member? Really? Maybe for the people who never actually got to know the real orb. I've known he was a "bad seed" since the early beta. To me, this smells of karma. | ||
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Daogin
Canada2308 Posts
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
Personally...I couldn't care less. But, seriously, the problem isn't Orb saying anything. It's how people look at what he said and feel about it and why they feel the way they do. Firing Orb only prevents Orb from saying on stream again...someone else will have their chance and go for it like a mad man. Then what?? | ||
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Silvertine
United States509 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:27 avilo wrote: People are naive if they think that a lot of the other top pros/players are never BM online or are saints. There's lots of other of these "community figures" that are BM as hell but no one bats an eyelash. Congratulations avilo, you're the 10,000th person to conflate standard BM with calling people racial slurs! | ||
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Ghostface_Killa
United States168 Posts
Just ignorant and immature. Still. | ||
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Reedjr
United States228 Posts
Does anyone remember the South Park episode about this? Long story short, the US Congress banned the phrase "nigger guy" because it was unduly offensive to be called that (as a white man). But it was still okay to say without the guy at the end. The joke being, obviously, that if white people could feel something remotely analogous to being called that word it would be banned instantly. That little twinge of guilt that one feels when saying these words or that moment of panic when one is being accused of racism/homophobia/sexism/whatever on account of it IS FUCKING NOTHING compared to being on the receiving end. This is not about a witch hunt, and this is not about "well he probably didn't actually say it to a black guy so it's not that bad." These pejoratives have long, cruel histories that, barring everyone on the planet getting temporary amnesia, will always have intense negative connotations. If I called something a shit salad, but then went on to say "oh no, I meant that as in it is the shit, not actual shit," one would most likely still think of said shit salad as negative, despite the context I tried to provide. Seriously, how are we in the 21st century and still having this argument? Words have denotations and connotations. They will always have those meanings. This is how language works. Just because someone "did not mean" one of those denotations or connotations does not make it everyone else's fault for getting offended, it means the speaker needs to refine his or her speech. | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:10 Defacer wrote: Sure it is. I'm not even questioning their intelligence. They're just conniving, cowardly bastards. None of those people are trying to become public figureheads. | ||
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SumHarvest
United States15 Posts
On the Internet, nobody gives a fuck. Because all you know, you'll be talking to a 5 year old child and quite frankly, who would actually take the guy seriously? People can say anything they want, however they want to say it and expect no resistance whatsoever. However, I can understand that as a professional gamer who is being represented by sponsors which could most likely affect the company. So it's appropriate. However, that only counts if its at tournaments or public events where the sponsors actually matter. If it's on stream, I believe that it's up to whatever the guy is doing and let him say and do what he wants. | ||
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
PS: orb, for your own sake, watch your language. regardless of your personal convictions, its just not worth it. | ||
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