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On March 10 2012 15:37 Reedjr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 15:17 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 15:09 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 15:02 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 14:52 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 14:46 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 08:51 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 08:09 Rombur wrote:On March 10 2012 07:39 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 07:14 HardlyNever wrote:
[quote]
How is it not? If he were a different race, we would be treating him differently. Isn't that basically the definition of racism?
Nope. User was warned for this post Of course, it is racism. How can you defend the opposite ? Two people saying the same thing are treated differently because of the color of their skin. I can't believe this actually has be explained but since so many of you are desperately confused: You're applying an extraordinarily simplistic, broad and crude definition of racism. According to your definition if a white person checked off 'African-American' on a form you couldn't correct them, because technically that would be treating them differently. It's a laughably strict understanding of the word which no sane person would ever use. The example which started this is also absurd. A black person would never call someone a 'nigger' at all, let alone as an insult. And yes, there is a massive distinction between 'nigger' and 'nigga' so please don't respond along that ridiculous line of reasoning. On March 10 2012 08:24 ReignFayth wrote:
did some people truly believe he was being racist?
that would be funny, 1st level thinking When you repeatedly say racist things, people will think you're a racist. That concept too difficult for you? No, actually you are just wrong, know it, and are trying to find away out of your illogical and untenable position. Black people would never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other? What? You have to be kidding me. You are either trolling, or haven't spent any real time with black people, ever. And I didn't think it required explanation, but apparently it does. What I was getting at is that someone can use a "racist" term, without being racist, because with all language context is everything. I'm not saying what orb did was right, but I'm simply stating what should be an obvious fact: context always matters with language, no matter what. Orb didn't know if the person he was talking to was black, so therefore using the "literal" definition of the word doesn't work at all here. Again, that doesn't make it right, but it also means it isn't racist. Again though, I think you are trolling me, or really have no clue about black people or race relations, based on your previous statement. Study some linguistics, he made an excellent point but it's one that will probably go over the heads of most people, as they simply don't know some important, relevant information (not that I blame you for not understanding it, it would have gone over my head as well had I not taken some linguistics courses in college): African American Vernacular English is a similar but different language than American English which is spoken by much of the black community in this country. 'nigga' is a word in that language which has a completely different meaning than 'nigger' (it's more along the lines of the slang 'bro' rather than the hateful racist word). African Americans often refer to each other with 'nigga', but they never use 'nigger'. Wow, holy crap. Really? Is this some troll conspiracy? I think you people must have grown up where there aren't black people or something. I'm not talking about "nigga" as in "he's my nigga" or anything like that. I'm talking about one black person talking about another black person and saying something to the effect of "he's acting like a dumb nigger" or "he's just a stupid nigger." I've heard black people say this, about other black people, multiple times, around a mixed group. I grew up in the south (just outside of Atlanta) where mixed groups of white/black people are extremely common. I'm not saying "I totally get black people inside and out now," but being in racially mixed groups with "racially" charged language on for all races is a common occurrence in the south. If you really think black people never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other, you are naive beyond hope for me. I really don't know how else to say it. You "took a linguistics course?" Are you kidding me? You needed a linguistics course to tell you the difference between "nigga" and "nigger?" You have to be trolling at this point. You got me. The only approximation you might be able to relate to (again, I'm assuming you live in a place where racially mixed groups aren't common( I didn't think places liked this still existed in the US til I moved to Indiana lol), as that has to be the case in order for you to really believe such an ignorant stance) would be one white person calling another white person "poor white trash." Where I live, there are plenty of mixed groups, they just tend to be better educated and more knowledgeable than the average southerner (not to be offensive, I'm not trying to lambaste the south, but it is a fact that education rates are much higher on average where I live than in Georgia), and I've never once heard them use the term in that way. That said, these people you are referring to are doing themselves a sincere disservice and helping to propagate a serious problem, but I bet you most of them would have a huge problem with anyone outside their culture using the word. I'm going to let the irony of this statement sink in. But it probably won't get there, based on your last few posts. P.S. I'm about to finish two Masters degrees in May. My bachelors came from a history department headed by this guy: http://history.uga.edu/people/people.php?page=29and yes, I took his courses. But I'm sure you're "more educated" than me on the subject. So you're arguing that there is no difference between a member of the majority using a racial slur against someone in a minority and a member of a minority using it against another member of that same minority? In the same derogatory fashion? That there are no different cultural dynamics that might make one more offensive than the other, or that they are each still really offensive? Would your professor be totally fine with two over-privileged white boys calling each other whatever the hell they want? And Prob, please stop acting like you've contributed anything worthwhile to this subject. The notion that one should give up intellectual pursuits to listen to one's "gut" is so stupid there is a wildly popular Comedy Central show devoted to that ridiculous premise. Hint: It's hosted by Stephen Colbert.
This is my point exactly. Orb wasn't talking to "someone in the minority." He could have been, but it hasn't been proven, and is statistically unlikely (them being a minority and all). That is why it wasn't a "racist" statement. He wasn't saying it to someone he knew was black, and using the word in a specific context (i.e. a white person talking to a black person) to denigrate them. He was using it in the "gamer" context of the word. Which is still negative, but it is relatively devoid of its racial connotation in that context.
Again, is it right? No, it isn't. I'm just tired of this bullshit pseudo-intellectualism trying to defend something that isn't there. People talk about taking a linguistics course. YOU need to learn something from linguistics apparently. Context is everything, always. That is all I'm saying. If Orb were black in this context, no one would care. But he isn't. So, technically, he is being treated in a racist fashion.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 10 2012 15:49 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 15:37 Reedjr wrote:On March 10 2012 15:17 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 15:09 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 15:02 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 14:52 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 14:46 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 08:51 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 08:09 Rombur wrote:On March 10 2012 07:39 Silvertine wrote:
[quote]
Nope.
User was warned for this post Of course, it is racism. How can you defend the opposite ? Two people saying the same thing are treated differently because of the color of their skin. I can't believe this actually has be explained but since so many of you are desperately confused: You're applying an extraordinarily simplistic, broad and crude definition of racism. According to your definition if a white person checked off 'African-American' on a form you couldn't correct them, because technically that would be treating them differently. It's a laughably strict understanding of the word which no sane person would ever use. The example which started this is also absurd. A black person would never call someone a 'nigger' at all, let alone as an insult. And yes, there is a massive distinction between 'nigger' and 'nigga' so please don't respond along that ridiculous line of reasoning. On March 10 2012 08:24 ReignFayth wrote:
did some people truly believe he was being racist?
that would be funny, 1st level thinking When you repeatedly say racist things, people will think you're a racist. That concept too difficult for you? No, actually you are just wrong, know it, and are trying to find away out of your illogical and untenable position. Black people would never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other? What? You have to be kidding me. You are either trolling, or haven't spent any real time with black people, ever. And I didn't think it required explanation, but apparently it does. What I was getting at is that someone can use a "racist" term, without being racist, because with all language context is everything. I'm not saying what orb did was right, but I'm simply stating what should be an obvious fact: context always matters with language, no matter what. Orb didn't know if the person he was talking to was black, so therefore using the "literal" definition of the word doesn't work at all here. Again, that doesn't make it right, but it also means it isn't racist. Again though, I think you are trolling me, or really have no clue about black people or race relations, based on your previous statement. Study some linguistics, he made an excellent point but it's one that will probably go over the heads of most people, as they simply don't know some important, relevant information (not that I blame you for not understanding it, it would have gone over my head as well had I not taken some linguistics courses in college): African American Vernacular English is a similar but different language than American English which is spoken by much of the black community in this country. 'nigga' is a word in that language which has a completely different meaning than 'nigger' (it's more along the lines of the slang 'bro' rather than the hateful racist word). African Americans often refer to each other with 'nigga', but they never use 'nigger'. Wow, holy crap. Really? Is this some troll conspiracy? I think you people must have grown up where there aren't black people or something. I'm not talking about "nigga" as in "he's my nigga" or anything like that. I'm talking about one black person talking about another black person and saying something to the effect of "he's acting like a dumb nigger" or "he's just a stupid nigger." I've heard black people say this, about other black people, multiple times, around a mixed group. I grew up in the south (just outside of Atlanta) where mixed groups of white/black people are extremely common. I'm not saying "I totally get black people inside and out now," but being in racially mixed groups with "racially" charged language on for all races is a common occurrence in the south. If you really think black people never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other, you are naive beyond hope for me. I really don't know how else to say it. You "took a linguistics course?" Are you kidding me? You needed a linguistics course to tell you the difference between "nigga" and "nigger?" You have to be trolling at this point. You got me. The only approximation you might be able to relate to (again, I'm assuming you live in a place where racially mixed groups aren't common( I didn't think places liked this still existed in the US til I moved to Indiana lol), as that has to be the case in order for you to really believe such an ignorant stance) would be one white person calling another white person "poor white trash." Where I live, there are plenty of mixed groups, they just tend to be better educated and more knowledgeable than the average southerner (not to be offensive, I'm not trying to lambaste the south, but it is a fact that education rates are much higher on average where I live than in Georgia), and I've never once heard them use the term in that way. That said, these people you are referring to are doing themselves a sincere disservice and helping to propagate a serious problem, but I bet you most of them would have a huge problem with anyone outside their culture using the word. I'm going to let the irony of this statement sink in. But it probably won't get there, based on your last few posts. P.S. I'm about to finish two Masters degrees in May. My bachelors came from a history department headed by this guy: http://history.uga.edu/people/people.php?page=29and yes, I took his courses. But I'm sure you're "more educated" than me on the subject. So you're arguing that there is no difference between a member of the majority using a racial slur against someone in a minority and a member of a minority using it against another member of that same minority? In the same derogatory fashion? That there are no different cultural dynamics that might make one more offensive than the other, or that they are each still really offensive? Would your professor be totally fine with two over-privileged white boys calling each other whatever the hell they want? And Prob, please stop acting like you've contributed anything worthwhile to this subject. The notion that one should give up intellectual pursuits to listen to one's "gut" is so stupid there is a wildly popular Comedy Central show devoted to that ridiculous premise. Hint: It's hosted by Stephen Colbert. This is my point exactly. Orb wasn't talking to "someone in the minority." He could have been, but it hasn't been proven, and is statistically unlikely (them being a minority and all). That is why it wasn't a "racist" statement. He wasn't saying it to someone he knew was black, and using the word in a specific context (i.e. a white person talking to a black person) to denigrate them. He was using it in the "gamer" context of the word. Which is still negative, but it is relatively devoid of its racial connotation in that context. Again, is it right? No, it isn't. I'm just tired of this bullshit pseudo-intellectualism trying to defend something that isn't there. People talk about taking a linguistics course. YOU need to learn something from linguistics apparently. Context is everything, always. That is all I'm saying. If Orb were black in this context, no one would care. But he isn't. So, technically, he is being treated in a racist fashion.
He chose the word in place of other potential words to use for that purpose specifically because it is such a horrid word and because it is so offensive. If the point you're trying to make were the case, why wouldn't he use a word that isn't so racially charged? And no, it's not racism, racism is the deliberate discrimination against a group based on their race because of a belief of the inferiority of that race. Orb is a member of the dominant group. Nobody is saying white people are inferior and therefore aren't allowed to use the word without being considered racist, we're saying it's a word with a certain implied meaning that is racially charged, and that it is extremely inappropriate for a white person (who is in the dominant group) to use it, especially in such a negative fashion (I can see some legitimate uses for it, such as in an academic function, but using it as an insult to rage at someone makes it pretty clear what your purpose is).
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Just going to try and summarize what I said before.
You can either be good because thats your nature and your world view is not one trying to separate us into different groups giving power to words used to attack each other and further draw lines in the sand.
Or you can continue living the mistakes of our predecessors and continuing to load these stupid words with more and more hate every time you persecute and lose your minds every time its even uttered. Should we start using phrases like "He who will not be named" when talking about someone terrible?? Living in fear of being a full red blooded mistake making person and trying to be perfect all the time is what drives people into deep anxiety and depression. When you rage you are letting out toxic doses of anger so that it doesnt build up inside you and lead you down such paths.
Is it dumb to say nigger when raging? Yeah its really immature and stupid. Is it also completely meaningless?? Yes it is.
But if you can just say "ahh he shouldnt say that, thats kinda poor taste. Whatever that's his life it doesn't affect me in any way if he wants to use a word as an expletive than thats his world and so be it."
This of course only works if he wasnt using the word to slander a race. If you could be the bigger person and not attack your fellow human being instead of worrying about words attacking races and think how you're attacking him someone of your own race, the human race. Chew on that.
No matter how you spin your logic around it you're wrong for what you did here.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 10 2012 15:56 Probasaur wrote:
Just going to try and summarize what I said before.
You can either be good because thats your nature and your world view is not one trying to separate us into different groups giving power to words used to attack each other and further draw lines in the sand.
Or you can continue living the mistakes of our predecessors and continuing to load these stupid words with more and more hate every time you persecute and lose your minds every time its even uttered. Should we start using phrases like "He who will not be named" when talking about someone terrible?? Living in fear of being a full red blooded mistake making person and trying to be perfect all the time is what drives people into deep anxiety and depression. When you rage you are letting out toxic doses of anger so that it doesnt build up inside you and lead you down such paths.
Is it dumb to say nigger when raging? Yeah its really immature and stupid. Is it also completely meaningless?? Yes it is.
But if you can just say "ahh he shouldnt say that, thats kinda poor taste. Whatever that's his life it doesn't affect me in any way if he wants to use a word as an expletive than thats his world and so be it."
This of course only works if he wasnt using the word to slander a race. If you could be the bigger person and not attack your fellow human being instead of worrying about words attacking races and think how you're attacking him someone of your own race, the human race. Chew on that.
No matter how you spin your logic around it you're wrong for what you did here.
Do you realize your argument boils down to "You shouldn't be bothered when other people do something wrong, so long as it doesn't directly harm you?" Someone does something wrong: we point it out, so that people can learn from the mistake. If we all sat back on our asses when someone did something wrong and take up the attitude of "I don't like it, but whatever, doesn't hurt me at all," our society would never grow and develop, and we'd never consider new arguments on morality, and even worse, we wouldn't be able to deal with major problems like genocide in another country, simply because it doesn't affect you.
If you'd read my posts, I never once said Orb is a bad person, I'm not attacking him. The harshest thing I've said about Orb is that he did something stupid, and he used a word that is racist. I don't believe Orb is racist, I just think he behaved boorishly. It's not an attack.
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Orb is being held as a politician.... he doesn't have to be politically correct cause he isn't running for office who cares what expressive terminology he uses?
So tired of all these whiners. People don't even know what racism is now-a-days.
What happened to defending the American 1st constitutional amendment....
glad to see people go for the throat before they even think about what they are doing.
Anyone who calls someone else a racist in modern times is probably just an ignorant uneducated individual.
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I specifically said in a previous post we should point it out and discuss it amongst ourselves and deal with it internally and learn from it as a group, as a scene, as one big happy family. Instead of throwing him out into the streets to be lynched by the drama lovers and cult of personality fappers who just wanna see people fail. Especially when that also involves MESSAGING EG'S SPONSORS... wow. Dumb as fuck.
So basically if you don't know what I mean by that is. Don't treat this like he just bombed a church. Treat it with the amount of attention and outrage as you see fit, but if you seriously think this giant shitstorm fits the crime... than you're just another drama bitch who doesn't know what a real problem is. Also commonly referred to as, white people problems.
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Honestly, the thing that worries me the most about this whole thing is that if I'm talking to a guy who bumped into me in the street, and I say, "You are retarded. Learn how to walk.", then I lose my job in the sales department. Sure, I would be a dick for doing what I did, but ultimately, it was a random dude. It doesn't relate to my job, and everybody gets angry sometimes. It's what makes us human.
Even if it was two random dudes. Even if a third guy pasted "evidence" in the form of a picture of me looking at him angrily, it was faked up, and I protested that it is such.
It is inhuman to expect a person to be a funny, professional, talkative person at all times, and if a few insults bandied about cause a person to lose his livelihood, .... well then I am ashamed to be in such a society.
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On March 10 2012 15:49 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 15:37 Reedjr wrote:On March 10 2012 15:17 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 15:09 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 15:02 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 14:52 Whitewing wrote:On March 10 2012 14:46 HardlyNever wrote:On March 10 2012 08:51 Silvertine wrote:On March 10 2012 08:09 Rombur wrote:On March 10 2012 07:39 Silvertine wrote:
[quote]
Nope.
User was warned for this post Of course, it is racism. How can you defend the opposite ? Two people saying the same thing are treated differently because of the color of their skin. I can't believe this actually has be explained but since so many of you are desperately confused: You're applying an extraordinarily simplistic, broad and crude definition of racism. According to your definition if a white person checked off 'African-American' on a form you couldn't correct them, because technically that would be treating them differently. It's a laughably strict understanding of the word which no sane person would ever use. The example which started this is also absurd. A black person would never call someone a 'nigger' at all, let alone as an insult. And yes, there is a massive distinction between 'nigger' and 'nigga' so please don't respond along that ridiculous line of reasoning. On March 10 2012 08:24 ReignFayth wrote:
did some people truly believe he was being racist?
that would be funny, 1st level thinking When you repeatedly say racist things, people will think you're a racist. That concept too difficult for you? No, actually you are just wrong, know it, and are trying to find away out of your illogical and untenable position. Black people would never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other? What? You have to be kidding me. You are either trolling, or haven't spent any real time with black people, ever. And I didn't think it required explanation, but apparently it does. What I was getting at is that someone can use a "racist" term, without being racist, because with all language context is everything. I'm not saying what orb did was right, but I'm simply stating what should be an obvious fact: context always matters with language, no matter what. Orb didn't know if the person he was talking to was black, so therefore using the "literal" definition of the word doesn't work at all here. Again, that doesn't make it right, but it also means it isn't racist. Again though, I think you are trolling me, or really have no clue about black people or race relations, based on your previous statement. Study some linguistics, he made an excellent point but it's one that will probably go over the heads of most people, as they simply don't know some important, relevant information (not that I blame you for not understanding it, it would have gone over my head as well had I not taken some linguistics courses in college): African American Vernacular English is a similar but different language than American English which is spoken by much of the black community in this country. 'nigga' is a word in that language which has a completely different meaning than 'nigger' (it's more along the lines of the slang 'bro' rather than the hateful racist word). African Americans often refer to each other with 'nigga', but they never use 'nigger'. Wow, holy crap. Really? Is this some troll conspiracy? I think you people must have grown up where there aren't black people or something. I'm not talking about "nigga" as in "he's my nigga" or anything like that. I'm talking about one black person talking about another black person and saying something to the effect of "he's acting like a dumb nigger" or "he's just a stupid nigger." I've heard black people say this, about other black people, multiple times, around a mixed group. I grew up in the south (just outside of Atlanta) where mixed groups of white/black people are extremely common. I'm not saying "I totally get black people inside and out now," but being in racially mixed groups with "racially" charged language on for all races is a common occurrence in the south. If you really think black people never use "nigger" in a derogatory way toward each other, you are naive beyond hope for me. I really don't know how else to say it. You "took a linguistics course?" Are you kidding me? You needed a linguistics course to tell you the difference between "nigga" and "nigger?" You have to be trolling at this point. You got me. The only approximation you might be able to relate to (again, I'm assuming you live in a place where racially mixed groups aren't common( I didn't think places liked this still existed in the US til I moved to Indiana lol), as that has to be the case in order for you to really believe such an ignorant stance) would be one white person calling another white person "poor white trash." Where I live, there are plenty of mixed groups, they just tend to be better educated and more knowledgeable than the average southerner (not to be offensive, I'm not trying to lambaste the south, but it is a fact that education rates are much higher on average where I live than in Georgia), and I've never once heard them use the term in that way. That said, these people you are referring to are doing themselves a sincere disservice and helping to propagate a serious problem, but I bet you most of them would have a huge problem with anyone outside their culture using the word. I'm going to let the irony of this statement sink in. But it probably won't get there, based on your last few posts. P.S. I'm about to finish two Masters degrees in May. My bachelors came from a history department headed by this guy: http://history.uga.edu/people/people.php?page=29and yes, I took his courses. But I'm sure you're "more educated" than me on the subject. So you're arguing that there is no difference between a member of the majority using a racial slur against someone in a minority and a member of a minority using it against another member of that same minority? In the same derogatory fashion? That there are no different cultural dynamics that might make one more offensive than the other, or that they are each still really offensive? Would your professor be totally fine with two over-privileged white boys calling each other whatever the hell they want? And Prob, please stop acting like you've contributed anything worthwhile to this subject. The notion that one should give up intellectual pursuits to listen to one's "gut" is so stupid there is a wildly popular Comedy Central show devoted to that ridiculous premise. Hint: It's hosted by Stephen Colbert. This is my point exactly. Orb wasn't talking to "someone in the minority." He could have been, but it hasn't been proven, and is statistically unlikely (them being a minority and all). That is why it wasn't a "racist" statement. He wasn't saying it to someone he knew was black, and using the word in a specific context (i.e. a white person talking to a black person) to denigrate them. He was using it in the "gamer" context of the word. Which is still negative, but it is relatively devoid of its racial connotation in that context. Again, is it right? No, it isn't. I'm just tired of this bullshit pseudo-intellectualism trying to defend something that isn't there. People talk about taking a linguistics course. YOU need to learn something from linguistics apparently. Context is everything, always. That is all I'm saying. If Orb were black in this context, no one would care. But he isn't. So, technically, he is being treated in a racist fashion.
How can that word ever be devoid of racial context? For the last time, context is not the most important factor in language. Yes, it is a big factor, but the actual fucking definition of the term is just as big of a factor. The actual definition of that word is a denigrating reference to a black person. That is the basis for the word and it cannot be removed from the word, because, regardless of context, as that is what the word means. The speaker may not necessarily mean it to be a slur, but that meaning is at the basis of the word and no honest discussion of that term could be had without recognizing that. Context is not the end all be all of language, otherwise we end up in a world where words mean whatever at the time.
This is the same kind of shit that Eris stirred up over sexist terminology. "Oh, we're not talking about real rape, just beating someone badly in a video game!" Yes, that is a context that exists... Yet most people saw it as him being oddly okay with sexual violence against women. If this (or any other) community is to grow, we need to grow up and realize this isn't about political correctness or having our first amendment rights stripped from us (another beyond stupid comparison), it's that people can be genuinely offended by these things so we should probably stop saying them.
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@reedjr
It's not a beyond stupid comparison. Neglecting our constatitional rights it's the only beyond stupid thing you can do.
If you don't use them/defend them the ycan be taken away.
Read a history book please.
I mean do you relaize what your saying?
What If I said in all seriousness the word Blue or Red offensed me.... The word Terran offends me....
we are going to stop using them?
No, perhaps instead of telling others to grow up- you might want to consider your arguements a little more carefuly and take some time to think about them in the BIG picture.
I will never EVER be told what I can or can't say when expressing my opinion. There is a reason there is freedom of speech. By being able to communicate our thoughts and feelings, we break our chains. Live free or die.
putting dirt under the rug doens't make the floor clean.
and that's jsut my 2¢
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Poll: Do you think the first screen shot was Orb's friend?No (23) 77% Yes (7) 23% 30 total votes Your vote: Do you think the first screen shot was Orb's friend? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Not sure? Dont vote.
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You obviously don't know the constitution as well as you think. The government is not censoring Orb. Nobody is. He, and you, can say whatever you want. Orb's employer, on the other hand, did not appreciate what he had to say, and how the situation was handled. EG is a private organization, and they can do what they want with their organization. I, for instance, have a clause in my contract that says I can be terminated if I say negative things about my employer on-line. Is this unconstitutional? Does it violate my free speech? No and no. I am still free to say whatever I want, but I still have to live with the consequences of those words. Just like if I were to write a letter to the editor in my local newspaper and it does not get published... Does that violate my first amendment rights? No, maybe I just wrote a crappy and/or crazy letter.
Too many kids think free speech equals "I can say whatever the fuck I want and there will be no consequences if it offends someone." It certainly means the first part, but the other two are nowhere near the constitution.
I'll reiterate that first part - the first amendment applies to government censorship. Government censorship has nothing to do with anything that is going on in this thread. Take your own advice and read a book. Preferably a civics book, because that will be more applicable to our constitutional rights than a history one.
Edit: At SayGen, obviously.
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On March 10 2012 11:08 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 11:02 DaemonX wrote:
How many, honestly HOW MANY people, especially those faux-PC reddit drama trolls, if you trawled through their entire history of every replay they had on ladder, custom, stream, skype snippets recorded, maybe their IM chat records, would not have comments similarly embaressing to be taken out of context?
I've raged on ladder a few times. Never called anyone a nigger or a faggot, or even stupid. I've called them lucky, or coin-flippers, or cheesey-bastards. Just saying, bro. Don't lump everyone in with guys like Orb (or you). N... and F... aren't the only comprimising things you can say. And sorry to say I doubt you. There are people that have been exposed to the Internet who have squeaky clean dialogue at ALL times, but they're in the severe minority.
Look, maybe you, and Alex are such. But certainly *all* employees of EG aren't. And certainly all the SC2 and Reddit community aren't - not even those who are complaining. This makes this an overly harsh witch-hunt.
If Orb did this during his tenure at EG, he should have been severely censured. But he did it before, well before in fact, when he had no idea of having a public face with a major team. He also didn't stand by those comments as being his current view. If you read his post, he denies attempting to mislead or deceive, and I've seen no evidence to the contrary.
On March 10 2012 11:21 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 11:02 DaemonX wrote:On March 09 2012 13:14 -orb- wrote:
I would like to extend my sincerest apologies to the community, Evil Geniuses, and all associated sponsors. When I made the hurtful and offensive comments seen on screenshots on reddit/etc, I was not in a proper state of mind. My judgement was clouded by anger, rage, and frustration, and I thought the offensive language would be interpreted as comedy and venting rather than legitimate world views of mine. Clearly I was wrong, and I am so very sorry to anyone I offended. Actually you weren't wrong - Alex Garfield admitted he thought you were not actually racist. He's a hypocritical sanctimonious asshat, you have nothing to apologise for. How many, honestly HOW MANY people, especially those faux-PC reddit drama trolls, if you trawled through their entire history of every replay they had on ladder, custom, stream, skype snippets recorded, maybe their IM chat records, would not have comments similarly embaressing to be taken out of context? I mean even Mr Garfield, assuming his irritating rant about his own educational credentials and spotless personal ethics are face-value true, has many people in his employ that do not meet these standards. Idra is the most famous but far, far from the only example. Ever heard InControl talk? Baller chap, says stuff sometimes you could take out of context. Christ had a point with the whole 'those without sin casting the first stone' shebang, really he did. You my friend are a martyr of the free word. you comparing apples to oranges here, Orb was being paid for his personality, how he talked how he communicates with people, thats all they wanted out of him for him to be polite interesting funny knowledgeable and entertaining to the best of his ability the only thing they ask of IdrA is for him to leap across the metaphorical table and rip his opponents throat out with his bare teeth (and by that i do mean best the opponent in an old fashioned game of starcraft 2) unless IdrA does something completely insane like calling people niggers and raging in interviews (and i mean ltieral frothing at the mouth OMG this guy looks unstable raging not his cool as a cucumber "raging") they wont ever remove him for his personality the opposite is true for Orb, Reddit proved without a doubt that hes got a pretty big temper and isnt very good at dealing with that temper, all it takes is one bad ladder game before he goes live for an official EG event and then what happened here makes it look like a peaceful summer day, why take that risk? orb needs to keep his nose clean, no raging on stream no raging on anything that has the name Orb above it he needs some serious smurfs for ladder becuase i gurantee he wont make a 180 and he cant get caught again
SOOO much bullshit in the above post.
1) Is there any evidence that Orb acted inappropiately *while* being paid by EG? No.
2) Is IdrA's behaviour at odds with the supposed 'ideals' that are the supposed reason for the actions taken? Yes.
3) Did Reddit 'prove' something about a man's personality because of a screenshot of an isolated incident from a previous time? No.
4) Once again, did Orb fail to 'keep his nose clean' while working for EG? No.
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On March 10 2012 17:09 Reedjr wrote:
You obviously don't know the constitution as well as you think. The government is not censoring Orb. Nobody is. He, and you, can say whatever you want. Orb's employer, on the other hand, did not appreciate what he had to say, and how the situation was handled. EG is a private organization, and they can do what they want with their organization. I, for instance, have a clause in my contract that says I can be terminated if I say negative things about my employer on-line. Is this unconstitutional? Does it violate my free speech? No and no. I am still free to say whatever I want, but I still have to live with the consequences of those words. Just like if I were to write a letter to the editor in my local newspaper and it does not get published... Does that violate my first amendment rights? No, maybe I just wrote a crappy and/or crazy letter.
Too many kids think free speech equals "I can say whatever the fuck I want and there will be no consequences if it offends someone." It certainly means the first part, but the other two are nowhere near the constitution.
I'll reiterate that first part - the first amendment applies to government censorship. Government censorship has nothing to do with anything that is going on in this thread. Take your own advice and read a book. Preferably a civics book, because that will be more applicable to our constitutional rights than a history one.
Edit: At SayGen, obviously.
1) You need to read what I type before responding.
2) He is being censored, he was released form employment (fired) due to actions PRIOR to his work with EG. If you can prove otherwise I'll yield to this point.
3) History, esp. early history is where we get civics so don't play technicalities with me, I don't like pseudo intellectuals.
4) Your words do have consequences, like all other actions. but our society has determined that there is protection for expressing your opinion, orb is an American and has been given those rights to him at birth- and if I was him I'd sue Alex in a heartbeat for infringing on said right(s)
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 but whas exetly his statement btw?
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On March 10 2012 16:53 SayGen wrote:
@reedjr
It's not a beyond stupid comparison. Neglecting our constatitional rights it's the only beyond stupid thing you can do.
If you don't use them/defend them the ycan be taken away.
Read a history book please.
I mean do you relaize what your saying?
What If I said in all seriousness the word Blue or Red offensed me.... The word Terran offends me....
we are going to stop using them?
No, perhaps instead of telling others to grow up- you might want to consider your arguements a little more carefuly and take some time to think about them in the BIG picture.
I will never EVER be told what I can or can't say when expressing my opinion. There is a reason there is freedom of speech. By being able to communicate our thoughts and feelings, we break our chains. Live free or die.
putting dirt under the rug doens't make the floor clean.
and that's jsut my 2¢
My two cents, the words "Red" and "Blue" aren't offensive, because they mean "Red" and "Blue". The word "nigger" is offensive, because of what it means. You seem to be purposefully "over"thinking things.
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I was trying to think of anyone else that got a reaction as big as this where the whole community turned on them. The Katu incident never reached this scale (as it shouldn't have since it's nowhere near this magnitude) and that was as far as I got... until I remembered ScumBagGus. Now that was some crazy shit.
Now that I think about it, this is probably how ScumBagGus felt after eSports turned on him as well. It's a good thing no one is spamming orb's FB and twitter with "That N----r Guy" forcing him to delete his accounts.
Let's call him lucky.
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On March 10 2012 17:48 `dunedain wrote:
I was trying to think of anyone else that got a reaction as big as this where the whole community turned on them. The Katu incident never reached this scale (as it shouldn't have since it's nowhere near this magnitude) and that was as far as I got... until I remembered ScumBagGus. Now that was some crazy shit.
Now that I think about it, this is probably how ScumBagGus felt after eSports turned on him as well. It's a good thing no one is spamming orb's FB and twitter with "That N----r Guy" forcing him to delete his accounts.
Let's call him lucky.
People shouldn't make generalizations like "whole community".
I don't remember giving a shit about orb's BM because I'd seen it before on many other streams. Since I'm not a huge fan of the blame game I don't feel the need source that statement. Anybody who watches their fair share of streams has heard some tongue-in-cheek n-bombs being dropped by popular members of the community, and we've heard lots of off-colour humour. I'm not trying to justify the behaviour, since my stance on name-calling in general is that it's disrespectful. Why should any insult be considered proper sportsmanship?
But... when I think about it, taking something like childish ladder hate rage dug up and posted on reddit, catching the perpetrator in a lie when he tries to dodge the bullet and deny and then digging up more of the shit to create a dossier to effectively bury his ass... I can't help but have a lower opinion of some of the people lurking in the community other than the raging bigot nerds.
EDIT: Typo
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On March 10 2012 17:45 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 16:53 SayGen wrote:
@reedjr
It's not a beyond stupid comparison. Neglecting our constatitional rights it's the only beyond stupid thing you can do.
If you don't use them/defend them the ycan be taken away.
Read a history book please.
I mean do you relaize what your saying?
What If I said in all seriousness the word Blue or Red offensed me.... The word Terran offends me....
we are going to stop using them?
No, perhaps instead of telling others to grow up- you might want to consider your arguements a little more carefuly and take some time to think about them in the BIG picture.
I will never EVER be told what I can or can't say when expressing my opinion. There is a reason there is freedom of speech. By being able to communicate our thoughts and feelings, we break our chains. Live free or die.
putting dirt under the rug doens't make the floor clean.
and that's jsut my 2¢ My two cents, the words "Red" and "Blue" aren't offensive, because they mean "Red" and "Blue". The word "nigger" is offensive, because of what it means. You seem to be purposefully "over"thinking things.
Offensive is taken not given.
Choose not to be offended.
I can't remember a single time in my life i've been offended, i've been mad at what people say and do- even enraged. but offended?
Do you even know what offense means?
"a transgression of the law; misdemeanor."
What about Nigga/er it just means an ignorant black person.
So what?
It's a word with a defination.
Do you know what Terran means?
Terran:
"of or pertaining to the planet Earth,"
These are all words...JUST WORDS.
YOU CHOOSE TO MAKE THEM MEAN ANYTHING MORE THEN THAT.
YOU CHOOSE.
So any noun, or adj. (maybe some adverbs) can become 'bad' words now?
All this crap makes me so sick..
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It kind of makes little sense that he would be released because of something he did in the past. People change, we all have to be realistic with the actual severity of the problem. Releasing him from EG seemed way too much.
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On March 10 2012 18:08 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 17:45 Leporello wrote:On March 10 2012 16:53 SayGen wrote:
@reedjr
It's not a beyond stupid comparison. Neglecting our constatitional rights it's the only beyond stupid thing you can do.
If you don't use them/defend them the ycan be taken away.
Read a history book please.
I mean do you relaize what your saying?
What If I said in all seriousness the word Blue or Red offensed me.... The word Terran offends me....
we are going to stop using them?
No, perhaps instead of telling others to grow up- you might want to consider your arguements a little more carefuly and take some time to think about them in the BIG picture.
I will never EVER be told what I can or can't say when expressing my opinion. There is a reason there is freedom of speech. By being able to communicate our thoughts and feelings, we break our chains. Live free or die.
putting dirt under the rug doens't make the floor clean.
and that's jsut my 2¢ My two cents, the words "Red" and "Blue" aren't offensive, because they mean "Red" and "Blue". The word "nigger" is offensive, because of what it means. You seem to be purposefully "over"thinking things. Offensive is taken not given. Choose not to be offended. I can't remember a single time in my life i've been offended, i've been mad at what people say and do- even enraged. but offended? Do you even know what offense means? "a transgression of the law; misdemeanor." What about Nigga/er it just means an ignorant black person. So what? It's a word with a defination. Do you know what Terran means? Terran: "of or pertaining to the planet Earth," These are all words...JUST WORDS. YOU CHOOSE TO MAKE THEM MEAN ANYTHING MORE THEN THAT. YOU CHOOSE. So any noun, or adj. (maybe some adverbs) can become 'bad' words now? All this crap makes me so sick..
Someone missed the point. Quoting urban dictionary definitions for shit is a pretty bad idea, too. Also, when the hell did Terran become offensive again? I thought the patches addressed apologies some of us are said to be owing.
I don't think "nigga" has the same weight as "nigger", and there's also context. I don't feel the need to explain this much further. Your lose definition and shoddy argument have inspired me to dig something up...
An example of the term "niggerish" from the mouth of Charlie Murphy is presented here, at 0:57. Listen carefully to Charlie. This video will help you with many definitions.
For the record. This is simply to clear up any biased [from white people] interpretations. I myself am no authority to comment on how the real target of an n-bomb feels...
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EPT
