EPTPut down the pitchforks, or lower them, at least. - Page 21
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gradotude
United States196 Posts
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JDub
United States976 Posts
One thing I'll add on is that comparing an MLG tournament which lasts a weekend and comparing that to the month long GSL seasons is a little unfair. GSL seasons only have a few matches per day, whereas the MLG event will be many hours of content each day of the weekend. You should be comparing price per hour, rather than price per day. | ||
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badDogma
United States106 Posts
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
I cannot and will not support a business model that intentionally limits the amount of viewers of SC2. I will not. I won't crucify Sundance for having an idea, and I won't crucify him for needing to do something and trying something. But this model to me, is the absolute opposite direction that esports should be trying to go in. I want growth. i want new people. I want as many viewers as humanly possible. Taking the current fans and forcing them into a hard choice that will realistically DROP viewers and alienate them is not my idea of growth. Sure it might help MLGs profit margin. Sure it might help MLG make more tournaments. But there are other ways to do that than bastardizing the community in what possibly will shoot the growth of SC2 in the head. It has nothing to do with price. It has nothing to do with not thinking MLG sets the bar high enough to warrant asking for money for a stream. Creating an all or nothing, PPV system shits on Starcraft and it's growth (in terms of fans). It's that simple. | ||
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Essobee
7 Posts
On February 15 2012 00:55 Longshank wrote: Uhm, it's quite reasonable to believe that something advertised as Pro Circuit Arena would actually be included in your ticket that would cover all Pro Circuit events this year. thanks for your quite helpful response. the point is that the gold membership holders aren't losing out on anything they were promised. this winter arena is content that is additional, and technically any type of membership that was previously purchased, doesn't include this type of content. do i think a membership should warrant a discount of events of these types? yes. do i think the price point is too high for an event of this type? yes. but i wasn't promised anything like arena events included with my membership, so i think it pertinent to remind people of this fact. MLG has been good in the past about changing their stances on things that evoke so much ire in the community (like this). I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in the price point, or a free low quality stream to be added. it's obvious that they're fumbling through this thing, trying to find a fair way (to themselves and the community) to provide quality content while maintaining some kind of business model. make your opinions on the matter heard guys, but keep in mind that MLG has been pretty fair with us in the past, and they deserve a little more respect and patience from us in the community while they try and figure this uncharted territory out. rather than posting rude or immature posts to MLG, or even Sundance himself, speak out on forums like these, and ultimately speak with your wallet. to have some in the community threaten to boycott MLG entirely, or even threaten to "skull fuck" Sundance personally, really puts a black eye one the community as a whole. even if those people are the vocal minority. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1601 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:08 JDub wrote: I agree completely with the OP. One thing I'll add on is that comparing an MLG tournament which lasts a weekend and comparing that to the month long GSL seasons is a little unfair. GSL seasons only have a few matches per day, whereas the MLG event will be many hours of content each day of the weekend. You should be comparing price per hour, rather than price per day. Free event's price per game: Undetermined GSL $15 gets you: Code A and Code S MLG $20 gets you: One weekend, far fewer matches, and far fewer quality players. Compare the cost per game much higher for a much weaker product. This is an aside from my thought that I don't think they really need our money anyways, just our eyes. | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:08 Angel_ wrote: I know I've said this elsewhere, but: I cannot and will not support a business model that intentionally limits the amount of viewers of SC2. I will not. I won't crucify Sundance for having an idea, and I won't crucify him for needing to do something and trying something. But this model to me, is the absolute opposite direction that esports should be trying to go in. I want growth. i want new people. I want as many viewers as humanly possible. Taking the current fans and forcing them into a hard choice that will realistically DROP viewers and alienate them is not my idea of growth. Sure it might help MLGs profit margin. Sure it might help MLG make more tournaments. But there are other ways to do that than bastardizing the community in what possibly will shoot the growth of SC2 in the head. It has nothing to do with price. It has nothing to do with not thinking MLG sets the bar high enough to warrant asking for money for a stream. Creating an all or nothing, PPV system shits on Starcraft and it's growth (in terms of fans). It's that simple. Problem is, at least for SC2 imo, the amount of people tuning into live events is correlated with how many people actually play the game. Less people are playing SC2 at the moment, could possibly see more when HOTS comes out, but at the moment you can't really expect much "growth" when the game has lost most of it's casual fan base (ie. where most gaming/media companies make their money from). Esports isn't like TV wherein you're just flipping channels and happen to land on a channel that shows esports for you to go "oh hey thats kinda cool" and become. It's very niche, at least in most parts of the world. | ||
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Achaia
United States643 Posts
Stepping outside of the hardcore viewership (which only a fraction of is willing to pay this much for a weekend tournament it seems) there's no way they're going to draw in new viewers if it's that expensive for such a small amount of content because in all honesty most people outside of the SC2 scene would rather spend that $20 on the very things that Sundance compared the cost of the tournament to in his post (i.e. a round of drinks or a night at the movies). I dunno, just my thoughts. I won't be purchasing a ticket for this tournament though and I'll definitely send them my feedback as well. | ||
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Rabbet
Canada404 Posts
Your format sucks. Nobody wants to spend an entire weekend watching 20 hours of tournament. Paying $20 to sit in my computer chair for 20 hours, wasting my weekend, and having to put up with around half the actual broadcast being the crowd waving signs does not sound like a good deal. The qualifiers, nightly for ~2 hours is the subscription I would pay monthly not the current marathon that taxes your company(that weekend), taxes the fans(having to sit glued to the content they are paying for) and taxes the players(having to sit in a venue for days, flying across the world, having to play X amount of important matches back to back). Why make it difficult when all we really want is a nice steady content stream that is well done that could have a huge "wrap up" marathon in December to end it all off? Take a page from the GSL and end these crappy marathons while at the same time improving the over all experience for the viewers. | ||
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Vul
United States685 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:10 Essobee wrote: thanks for your quite helpful response. the point is that the gold membership holders aren't losing out on anything they were promised. this winter arena is content that is additional, and technically any type of membership that was previously purchased, doesn't include this type of content. do i think a membership should warrant a discount of events of these types? yes. do i think the price point is too high for an event of this type? yes. but i wasn't promised anything like arena events included with my membership, so i think it pertinent to remind people of this fact. MLG has been good in the past about changing their stances on things that evoke so much ire in the community (like this). I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in the price point, or a free low quality stream to be added. it's obvious that they're fumbling through this thing, trying to find a fair way (to themselves and the community) to provide quality content while maintaining some kind of business model. make your opinions on the matter heard guys, but keep in mind that MLG has been pretty fair with us in the past, and they deserve a little more respect and patience from us in the community while they try and figure this uncharted territory out. rather than posting rude or immature posts to MLG, or even Sundance himself, speak out on forums like these, and ultimately speak with your wallet. to have some in the community threaten to boycott MLG entirely, or even threaten to "skull fuck" Sundance personally, really puts a black eye one the community as a whole. even if those people are the vocal minority. The bottom line is that MLG advertised this gold membership as giving access to all of their "MLG Pro Circuit" content and this is the "MLG Pro Circuit: Winter Arena." If you were paying to watch the MLG Pro Circuit, wouldn't you expect that it would be covered? I just don't understand what there is to disagree about on this one. MLG either fucked up on accident and I hope they will realize it and correct it in time, or they're trying to manipulate people. Right now I assume it's the former | ||
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ProBot
Canada170 Posts
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:10 Essobee wrote: thanks for your quite helpful response. the point is that the gold membership holders aren't losing out on anything they were promised. this winter arena is content that is additional, and technically any type of membership that was previously purchased, doesn't include this type of content. do i think a membership should warrant a discount of events of these types? yes. do i think the price point is too high for an event of this type? yes. but i wasn't promised anything like arena events included with my membership, so i think it pertinent to remind people of this fact. MLG has been good in the past about changing their stances on things that evoke so much ire in the community (like this). I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in the price point, or a free low quality stream to be added. it's obvious that they're fumbling through this thing, trying to find a fair way (to themselves and the community) to provide quality content while maintaining some kind of business model. make your opinions on the matter heard guys, but keep in mind that MLG has been pretty fair with us in the past, and they deserve a little more respect and patience from us in the community while they try and figure this uncharted territory out. rather than posting rude or immature posts to MLG, or even Sundance himself, speak out on forums like these, and ultimately speak with your wallet. to have some in the community threaten to boycott MLG entirely, or even threaten to "skull fuck" Sundance personally, really puts a black eye one the community as a whole. even if those people are the vocal minority. Let me get this straight. MLG changed their Pro Circuit into something I didn't pay for with my gold membership. I can argue: I thought there were 6 live events, in 2012 there are only 4. That may sound like splitting hairs. What if they made all of their events "arenas" and had only one live championship, like last year's Providence? There's nothing stopping them from doing that, and charging $$ for esports. Whoops, I guess I only paid for one event. Too bad my membership is canceled by the end of the year anyway. I don't know why you don't see a problem with "re-classifying" something so you can charge people who thought they'd already paid. I'm sad if MLG is not breaking even financially, I'd rather they are successful. However, I'm not going to pay them $20 for something I thought I already did and is overpriced anyway. I don't have that kind of money right now, and if I did, Gom would get it first. I also canceled my pitchfork pre-order. Edit: changed "tournament" to "pro circuit" | ||
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h-a-r-v
Poland30 Posts
You create an account on MLG's site (pretty much like on GSL's) in order to use their services. In your profile, you have a list of all the events that occurred or are just about to. By accessing each one of them, you're able to browse through all the content available: VODs, replays, shows, etc. When accessing THE UPCOMING EVENT (Winter Arena 2012 this time), you're presented with a flexible, modular model, which means each feature has a price and you can choose and combine them to whatever plan suits you, for example: [x] main stream(s): $5 [ ] additional streams (separately chosen): $2 each [ ] immediate VOD access: $3 [x] HD: $3 (maybe for each stream separately) etc. Same for each game. You pick, you pay, here you go. This, of course, is a subject to change / develop with time, but the more flexibility, the more choice given to people, the better. Also, with this strategy, MLG would have to make sure every feature is actually cool enough to pay for. Payment methods: PayPal, Visa / MasterCard and everything else that grants you immediate access (because you can extend your previously chosen plan with anything just like that anytime up until the event ends). In my case: I don't need more than 480p (slow connection I can't help) and I don't need more than two main streams (that's maximum I can watch simultaneously; 3x 360p is an option too - 5 streams are just impossible). I never have time to go back and watch VODs, I'm also not 15 anymore to be able to sit all weekend and watch stuff. I have a newborn, lots of work, sometimes I just need to drive somewhere ad hoc - buying a full package for $20 wouldn't make sense in my case. Not only I wouldn't be physically able to take advantage of what they have to offer, I also just don't have time for all that. So I'd love to pay for 2 main low quality streams 'cause that's what I could possibly enjoy to high extent. Right now it's like I have to get a Ferrari Enzo or no car at all. It's even worse than that. I'd end up paying for the Ferrari but due to my technical and personal limitations, that weekend I'll in fact drive a Prius at best. I'm basically told "we don't care you won't be able to enjoy everything we produce - you have to pay just 'cause we're doing it". That's not how markets of all kinds work and that's for a reason. Even though 1 dollar = 3.5x my currency (and it's even worse in other post-soviet countries - and I wouldn't say "we don't care" to this target, same for the youngest audience - very risky, inaccessible and kind of ignorant), I can easily afford $20, but that doesn't justify forcing me to get something I don't need / won't ever be able to consume. So I could pay - let's say - $7 right away for what I need. Maybe add something on the fly if they tease me well enough ("Idra vs Boxer showmatch on our 4th stream!"). Instead, I won't pay anything 'cause it's unfair treatment. Now multiply that $7 or $5 by the amount of people whose specific needs and capabilities have been ignored, who - for whatever reasons - won't be able to use or don't need some features. That's the amount of money MLG will NOT EARN this season. It's not what the Internet's been always about. | ||
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Sylailene
91 Posts
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
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Petrone
Sweden47 Posts
I must say I was very optimistic at first with the qualifiers, as I felt it would increase the skill level of the players in the actual tournament. I felt that some players got seeded into groups when they really didn't deserve it before. But I'm curious in what way MLG wants to profile itself, this change sends very bad signals to be honest, even though it's maybe only a test. One last thing I would like to say is that I totally support the paid trips for players, I'd rather see that in the future so more pros were able to go to events. Personally I don't care about prize money that much I rather look at the names of the players participating. To spread out the money between the players is an idea I absolutely think is the future if we want to sustain the scene. These are just my opinions about the PPV and MLG in general. | ||
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Essobee
7 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:21 Vul wrote: The bottom line is that MLG advertised this gold membership as giving access to all of their "MLG Pro Circuit" content and this is the "MLG Pro Circuit: Winter Arena." If you were paying to watch the MLG Pro Circuit, wouldn't you expect that it would be covered? I just don't understand what there is to disagree about on this one. MLG either fucked up on accident and I hope they will realize it and correct it in time, or they're trying to manipulate people. Right now I assume it's the former did a quick search, and i don't see anywhere official where the MLG Winter Arena is listed in the pro circuit. as far as i can tell, it is a separate entity entirely from the Pro Circuit. There are no points awarded towards this season. the only correlation i can find, is using the previous season's points for seeding. would be happy to discuss the bungled advertisement of the winter arena as a pro circuit event if you can find it  | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1601 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:14 Jojo131 wrote: Problem is, at least for SC2 imo, the amount of people tuning into live events is correlated with how many people actually play the game. Less people are playing SC2 at the moment, could possibly see more when HOTS comes out, but at the moment you can't really expect much "growth" when the game has lost most of it's casual fan base (ie. where most gaming/media companies make their money from). Esports isn't like TV wherein you're just flipping channels and happen to land on a channel that shows esports for you to go "oh hey thats kinda cool" and become. It's very niche, at least in most parts of the world. The attempt to get your eyes in order to appease sponsors is relative in both of these products. MLG spends consdierably less per event when compared to House. MLG gets 250k viewers House gets 3 million. In each scenario the sponsors get what they pay for their product running through the minds of their veiwers. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
I agree the price is too steep for one person, but split amongst friends on a TV isn't a bad deal, especially if there is a barcraft you guys can go to. | ||
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:27 Essobee wrote: did a quick search, and i don't see anywhere official where the MLG Winter Arena is listed in the pro circuit. as far as i can tell, it is a separate entity entirely from the Pro Circuit. There are no points awarded towards this season. the only correlation i can find, is using the previous season's points for seeding. would be happy to discuss the bungled advertisement of the winter arena as a pro circuit event if you can find it Look on page 6, Virgil's post at the bottom. | ||
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