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So, the upcoming MLG Arena event is going to be PPV-only, priced at $20 for the entire weekend, and there are many within the community who aren’t too happy about it. A recent TL poll shows that only 15% of respondents intend to purchase a weekend pass. Many have vowed to instead turn their attention to Assembly, which runs on the same weekend as MLG Arena, and offers a free stream.
EG’s been getting a lot of questions about the situation, and I’d like to clarify our stance on some of the issues.
Why isn’t EG part of the MLG referral program for the Winter Arena?
MLG offered us the opportunity to participate in their referral program for the upcoming event, but we declined, for several reasons. Before going into why we declined, I’d actually like to applaud Sundance, Lee, and everyone at MLG for a moment, because they took action and proactively composed a revenue-sharing program of sorts, which is the kind of thing that we desperately need to exist between teams and tournaments in this industry. It’s a notable first step, and I think they deserve credit for being willing to go there.
With that being said, allow me to elaborate on why EG declined to participate in the program. Our overarching reason ties directly into another common question we’ve been getting:
What do you think of the $20 price point?
I think it’s too high - especially within the context of how other SC2 content providers’ packages are priced. I think that the weekend should cost $10. I think MLG would actually make more money with a $10 price tag for the weekend pass, because I think they’d get more than twice the subscribers at $10 than they’ll get at $20. But that may be just me.
Anyway, that’s the primary, overarching reason why EG is not participating in the referral program. As a pro team, in participating in any referral program like this, you’re essentially agreeing to try and convince your fans and community to buy a particular product. You’re basically saying, “Hey, we think this product’s pretty cool, we think it’s worth your money, and ohbytheway, if you enter this code when you’re buying it, you’ll help us earn a commission on the sale.” In that sense, participating in a program like this inherently involves some kind of product endorsement (y’know, the whole “we think it’s worth your money” part), and we at EG just don’t think the weekend pass is priced correctly.
Bottom line: we weren’t willing to ask our loyal fans to spend money on a $20 dollar product that we think should’ve cost $10, while also ourselves profiting in the process. And that’s the main reason why we’re not in the referral program. To be honest, we weren’t really thrilled with the details of the program itself either, but that reasoning was secondary to the aforementioned.
But with all of that being said, and after spending three paragraphs explaining why EG declined to participate in the referral program and why I don’t think the Winter Arena pass is priced correctly, I’m now going to try and warm you guys up to buying it anyway (and, remember, as someone who declined to be a referrer, I’m not making money on this). My reasoning ties into another common question we’ve been getting from the community:
Why PPV-only in the first place? Why no free stream?
Look, I mean, I’ll be the first one to say that I’m not thrilled - at all - with any event being PPV-only. Every pro team, as a business, acts as a reseller of advertising services. Team A essentially purchases advertising space from Player X (via a contract that requires the player to, for example, wear a particular shirt), and then resells it to Sponsor Y (via, for example, placing the sponsor’s logo on said shirt).
This is what pro teams have to do in order to stay viable as businesses. And, inherent in this model is a huge reliance on tournaments (third-party businesses that teams usually don’t have any kind of formal relationship with) to do their part, construct the virtual (or real-life) stadium, and bring the virtual (or real-life) spectators. Because, if there are only ten people watching an event, it doesn’t matter how many logos are on my team shirt, or how big those logos are, they're still only going to be seen by ten people.
So, as someone who’s relying on MLG to bring in big viewership numbers in order to maximize the value which I can correspondingly report to my sponsors, the prospect of a PPV-only event (which, it seems, will result in an 80-90% decrease in spectatorship overall) isn’t something I’m happy about.
...But at the same time, I absolutely get why MLG wants to/has to give it a shot.
We’re at (and when I say “we,” I mean, teams, tournaments, content providers, everyone) an incredibly crucial moment in the lifespan of this industry. We’re at a point at which we, as an industry, need to become less reliant on third-party, outsider revenue (like corporate sponsors), and increase the percentage of our revenue that’s generated within the eSports ecosystem (direct-to-consumer revenue like subscriptions and merchandise).
The reason for this is that it’s actually still way too hard for teams and tournaments (including those you guys view as the most prestigious and the richest in all of eSports) to make things work financially. Trying to remain viable as a business based on sponsorships and non-industry revenue alone is an unbelievably dangerous path to walk, and it’s just not sustainable in the long term. And I say this as the mind behind what is commonly viewed as the richest pro team in the industry right now.
eSports companies, whether you’re talking about EG, or MLG, need to increase their direct-to-consumer revenue in order to survive long-term. For EG, that means selling more merchandise in our store, and offering a monthly EG subscription package for our fans (which you’ll see later this year, with the release of our new website). For MLG, that means - very similarly - selling more merchandise in their store, and, you guessed it, offering more subscription-based stuff (such as the Winter Arena weekend pass).
Now, does this mean that it’s okay for entities like EG or MLG to force subscription packages down your throats this year? No, of course not. I’m a huge proponent of freemium business models, and I plan on structuring EG’s upcoming subscription stuff accordingly. I wish (for a variety of reasons) that MLG would take a freemium approach (i.e., free low-quality stream, PPV high-quality stream) to their Arena events, just as they’ll do for their Championship events.
But, the bottom line is that they’ve decided that, in order to be viable as a business in the long-term, this is where they need to draw the line in terms of where to generate more direct-to-consumer revenue. It’s not that Sundance is trying to Scrooge McDuck it up and swim freestyle through Olympic-sized pools of money. He’s just trying to make his business sustainable in the long run - and that’s something I can absolutely empathize with.
You guys, as a community, talk a lot about “supporting eSports,” and really do a great job of it. I think that the StarCraft community, in particular, is better at doing so, and overall more generous, than any other professional gaming community. You guys support your pro teams (to those who’ve bought EG merchandise: thank you very, very much), and you’ve also spent a lot of money on premium content (like the GSL, and, ahem, MLG). And I hope - I truly, sincerely hope - that after reading this very long blog, you’re more open to spending $20 on a weekend pass for MLG’s upcoming event (yes, even though I don't think it's priced correctly).
For those of you who came into reading this ready to spend the $20 because you thought it was the right price for MLG’s product, I hope you still spend the $20. But, for those of you like me, who want to support eSports, and want to see prominent eSports companies like MLG stay sustainable long-term by increasing their direct-to-consumer revenue, but at the same time still think that $20 is too high of a price point (and/or think that the Arena broadcasts should be free/discounted for those who previously purchased Gold packages), please do one of the following:
A) Purchase the $20 pass for this upcoming event, but make it abundantly clear to MLG (either via emailing them, or posting on this TL thread, or Tweeting Sundance) that you will not be purchasing a pass for the next Arena event unless the price point is reduced.
B) Don’t purchase the $20 pass for this upcoming event, but make it abundantly clear to MLG (through the same avenues of communication as above) that you would have bought a pass if the price were lower and more reasonable.
C) If you’re a Gold member, whether you purchase the $20 pass or not, make it abundantly clear to MLG that you feel you deserve, at the very least, a discount on the Arena events.
or D) If you don't like any of the above, reach out to MLG in some kind of meaningful way, and tell them what they need to do in order to take your money. They'll listen.
Just, whatever you do, don't decide to punish MLG by giving them no feedback at all. It won't help them, and it certainly won't help you get what you want.
As for myself, I've selected option A. Sundance has my twenty bucks this time, and there's already an email in his inbox right now stating that, if he decreases the price for the next Arena event, he'll be able to take more of my money.
Thanks for your time.
-Alexander (CEO, Evil Geniuses)
@ottersareneat on Twitter
Edit: Added the polls.
Poll: Which option will you pursue?Option B (1191) 67% Option A (235) 13% Option C (172) 10% Other (108) 6% Option D (75) 4% 1781 total votes Your vote: Which option will you pursue? (Vote): Option A
(Vote): Option B
(Vote): Option C
(Vote): Option D
(Vote): Other
Poll: How much would you pay for MLG PPV?I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less. (959) 39% I'd pay $10, but not $20. (945) 38% I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10. (205) 8% I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge. (169) 7% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10. (111) 5% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20. (67) 3% 2456 total votes Your vote: How much would you pay for MLG PPV? (Vote): I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10.
(Vote): I'd pay $10, but not $20.
(Vote): I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge.
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As a disgruntled gold member, I will be doing option C.
For me it isn't about the 20 dollars, I spent 20 dollars on supper tonight. It's the principle of how Sundance convinced us that buying gold memberships was helping pro players and e-sports, and that we'd see big things this year depending on the amount of gold subscribers they got.
Also, I don't see how going PPV at this juncture is going to grow the sport.
Thanks for the support Alex!
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Alex, thanks for posting this! You have an unique view and insight into how things really go, instead of baseless speculation as to the nature of the business. I'm glad that you have posted a good medium/compromise as to how things should be done in your opinion. And your ideas certainly has more weight than most people here in this community.
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I always enjoy hearing your perspective. Thanks very much for the post.
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I think 2012 is the year where we see big SC2 cutbacks, growth and revenue are not keeping up with spending.
I would love to pay for MLG's arena, but 20$ is just too high.
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Shouldn't this be in the MLG thread?
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I support everything and anything Alex says.
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Repeating what I posted in the other thread:
I agree that the $20 is too high, but is the perfect event for MLG to experiment with an extreme PPV model to gauge the reception.
I'm assuming that this studio event will be way cheaper than any live event they've put on, and it will be interesting to see how much they make for it. IMO, they have enough "goodie" points to throw this sort of pricing experiment out there and just see how much people pay. Also, if their event is super solid, people may just spread the good word. If they make enough even with the $20 price point deterring most viewers away, more power to them. That might even encourage them to drop the price and make even more if they see a $20 price point does good for them.
They're not tampering with the live event, and the pricing for studio events can easily be changed. I don't blame MLG for doing this and I actually think it's a bit smart to stir up the community a bit over the issue. Interested to see how the weekend will go.
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Great set of points Alex. You've made it clear and concise in what you see as an attempt to grow e-sports, and still promote viewership and overall revenue for everyone. I'll do option A. You've convinced me. I'll get to emailing MLG, or Sundance or someone as soon as I find that address.
Go EG!
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I think it's way too early to be trying to sell PPVs as well. From their charts they believe they'll make more at the $20 price point.
Other thing that puzzles me is the fact they're flying all of the players down for what exactly? I want to know what promotional materials they have lined up. I don't see the marketing strategy and this announcement was incredibly late.
This is way too short-term.
Buying the ticket and voicing your concerns isn't productive either. You would still be supporting it.
Take the money and run.
Good song.
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Very well written, you do make quite a convincing argument.
A lot of people don't understand the major events and teams can't surivive long term soley off add and sponsorship revenue.
Why do you guys think almost every pro team has a store on their website? Because that is the most direct way for them to profit.
The professional scene is a business and it needs to be treated as such. Hand out are great and all but every once in a while we need to cough up a little extra.
(Note: I'm not agreeing with the $20 charge they're proposing, I think $10 is much more reasonable but I've opted for option A. simply because It's going to be an awesome event and I'm splitting it with 5 friends.)
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Once again EG is leading us the good way ... Well written. I agree.
I wonder if I should mail MLG about not updating the LP but if we don't their admin won't be able to organize a correct tournament. (sarcasm)
PS : Shoutout to blazh0r, you know why.
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Thanks Alex, hope they can figure another way instead of PPV, glad to hear your opinion on this.
It's not TOO expensive but it is still some 20 bucks for the matches that I will be able to watch
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Great post, thank you. I think that the PPV model is perfectly fine and is useful in injecting some more money into our favorite eSports organizations. I do, however, agree that the $20 pricetag is quite steep considering the length of the event and the amount of content that you get for buying the package. In the future I think the fans as well as MLG would benefit much more from a $10 pricetag, as you suggest.
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On February 14 2012 15:19 MarkyO wrote:
I support everything and anything Alex says.
And I agree with MarkyO, soooo. :D
Very thoughtful post - I really appreciate it!
It is a bold move for MLG to try to sell this to the community, and I think it's worth noting that how people respond will not just be seen and felt by MLG, but all the other tournaments as well. If this is industry is going to grow over time, something needs to change - and this may be a good step in the right direction - even if it's painful for the various parties involved.
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Thank you for some real world insight on a difficult issue. I'm really, really happy to see MLG move towards a more self sustained future, it can only be better for all of us and will actually produce better content in the end. For those of you hating, take a minute to think. If MLG can grow, expand their business and revenue and then reinvest a bit of that into production, it will benefit all of us. I do think that $20 is a bit steep for just a weekend... I guess if it's literally better then GSL Code S "For $20 you get a full weekend of nothing but the absolute best StarCraft 2 in the world." then for $20 it will be completely worth it. At $10 I wouldn't have even given a second thought... instant purchase, I love MLG. $15 I would've had to think for a bit about it and at $20... I'll do it this time and see what I get. I'm more than happy to give Sundance a chance for all he's done for the community. If it sucks well then, I'll know better for the future.
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constructive post + good logic = epic conclusions
i will be taking option A as i agree with ur argument ^^
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real talk, thank you alex.
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Great post Alex! I do feel that the gold members are getting screwed hard, and that the price should be lowered, but I totally see why MLG has it has PPV. People should expect this to be a common thing for all high quality tournaments in the future. I imagine this tournament is costing MLG 75k+ with prize pool, staff, flying out and housing the players, venue, streaming, equipment and all of that.
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Excellent post Alex, great to be able to get your viewpoint on this. This should definitely get a spotlight.
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I'd have easily put down $10 or even $15 to support MLG and EG. I love Team Evil Geniuses, I watch the streams that the team members do, etc. I'd be willing to part with $10 or $15 if it meant supporting the team I love. But due to being on a budget. It's one of those things, there is limited spending I can do and other things take priority.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're doing it wrong by any means. Alex has a great view point and that should be respected as much as MLG saying "Hey, I think our content and the teams we're doing the referrals for are worth your cash and your time." I know many that love Starcraft 2 and the community and it's just something not everyone could drop cash in at the drop of a hat due to budgeting. Or at least in mine and my friends cases.
I, too, will let MLG know my stance and hope to see it fixed in the future, because I'd love to support eSports. I'd love to support EG. I'd love to support Team Liquid. Just it's impossible due to my low fixed income.
-eXeKryos
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Exactly how I feel. At 10 dollars, a quick poll of TL would certainly show more than twice the number of members currently willing to pay 20. Not only would they not alienate alot of their userbase, they'd make more money. I don't understand why they didn't choose this in the first place. If anything, they'd get some praise even, for not marking it too high.
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On February 14 2012 15:18 Proko wrote:
I think 2012 is the year where we see big SC2 cutbacks, growth and revenue are not keeping up with spending.
I would love to pay for MLG's arena, but 20$ is just too high.
"Esports is gunna have a withdrawal this year. I will respond by helping that happen."
I'm baffled. I agree with Alex that the price is probably too high, but for what they are doing (paying for every player's trip, good sized prize pool, probably amazing production), come on. If you want to see the scene to actually become something, put in some damn effort and actually invest in what you love. If you don't love it, then you don't deserve it anyway.
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Really good read, I love the honesty here.
I'll be doing option A because I have the money to spend, but it's still a ridiculous price for a small amount of content in my opinion.
I'm pretty biased here because I do love EG and have bought every T-Shirt on offer just to support the players I love (and team liquid's shirts/posters for that matter) and I hope MLG can do something to make it more manageable for the spectators.
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Great read. I always appreciate someone selling me something that they are critical of. Seriously. It's a far more persuasive technique.
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You touched on so many points to do with MLG and this PPV model but damn reading this thread has only left me with excitement to see what those EG plans are for down the line
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I would totally spring $10 or even $12 to watch MLG. I would go out of my way to make room for it and watch every game I could. The last one was awesome.
At $20 ... No.
Multiply that by hundreds or thousands of people, and they are shooting themselves in the foot.
Doesn't matter how they justify it. Price point is too high. So, customers go elsewhere.
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10$ would not realy make a difference i think, and mlg probably thought the same.
The biggest step is getting people to pay in the first place, (they need to be able to pay on the internet, something not everyone likes to do or can do) and once that first step is made they are basicly willing to pay annything as long as its "small"
10$ would not have made a significant difference, people would still be upset and oppose the idea to pay.
Starting high now, at 20$, to make 10$ for the next toruney look like a good deal
Meh i dont think this will work either,
Manny people on the forum here expressed the idea that they would have paid if it was only 10 but maybe because they dont want to be "dickheads" for beeing completely against anny form of payment.,
Personally i think people who dont want to pay 20 will be convinced by a lower price.
Its verry annoying and inconvenient to have to pull out monney every weekend to watch something,
Specially if you already bought something like a year pass (gold member)
D for me.
I wouldnt mind paying once a year for ALL sc related content but reality is that this is not possible and you will be charged aditionally on manny occasions wich is just annoying
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MLG May be taking a page out of the UFC's book - the UFC has been quite successful at growing revenue using the PPV model, but their viewership has stagnated. I'm afraid the same will happen to e-sports; a core group of fans will spend the dough in the short term, but in the longer run fewer new fans will be watching.
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The sickest posts on TL right here. Always an interesting read.
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The overall idea and execution on this post was really amazing so thank you for that Alex. I will try to find a way to give option A personally. I know others may have a harder financial situation then I do but I would beg any future posts to consider what small thing they could give up this week in order to afford giving MLG $20.
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What confuses me is they are paying $100,000 to fly out 32 players to their headquarters... wait... what? These are all sponsored players... I GUESS it's just to get the koreans to come, but can you imagine if the prize pool from this event was $50,000 higher? and they subsidized player travel with the other $50k? The same players would show up, the bigger prize pool draws more views. That coupled with a $15 weekend pass (maybe $10 for gold members? which would draw in more gold customers) would get them AMAZING viewership and I think a ton more revenue for the event. But who knows, we don't have their numbers and charts so maybe they are doing the right thing.
i will be going to a barcraft for this, if I wasn't i'd still pay the $20 and email asking for $10 next time. I love MLG and I want to support them in any way i can. I am a current gold member, and will renew my subscription (even if I never use it cuz of barcrafts  ) just because I want to support them and I think gold membership is a great price.
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If nothing else, MLG showed courage for trying to vary their business model. For that courage, I think that they can have my $20 and a chance to knock my socks off with the production. However, with no sock knockage, I'll be hard pressed to repeat.
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I have a gold membership. I tweeted at sundance. hope he actually reads them.
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Very well thought out response. It's interesting to see that MLG's move is in some ways gonna hurt teams and sponsors. I really hope they realize that it's too early/too expensive for them to suddenly turn to this PPV model, when it's pretty clear viewership will fall a LOT.
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It's weird because I spend more on food per day than I would for a 2-day MLG pass. But for some reason that $20 still seems so expensive for what it is. I would understand paying for it if it were one of the final events, like a championship or something, with some buildup to it.
I will buy it because, well, I love esports and would love to see it grow. But I don't agree with the direction or the price point. Option A for me.
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I could see spending 20$ for a super premium package that came with some small, trivial, piece of merchandise/memorabilia I could keep to remember the event. Even if it was just a small personalized message from one of the pros/big wigs at MLG. Make me feel special and pretty. That's what I want. EDIT Maybe a badge or something? I don't know. People love that kind of stuff.
I would pay 10$ right now to be able to view MLG though.
EDIT Maybe for 30$ a package could come with a shirt signed by some random pro? Or by sundance? Or by EG's Alex? 
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Good read, totally agree. Already tweeted Sundance about option 2 
Keep up the good work! EG fighting!
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if I understood correctly, there will be a free stream. isnt it?
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If the professional scene can't survive without charging $20 per weekend event then Houston, we have a problem.
Casual fans won't shell out the $20 cause they don't care enough. They'll just skip it.
Hardcore starcraft fans will pay the $20, but if this becomes a regular thing, and fans have to pay $20/weekend to watch starcraft tournaments, then a lot of fans, even hardcore fans won't be able to afford $20/weekend + GSL.
Obviously I'm not privy to the business side of Starcraft, but I thought it'd be really easy to get well paying sponsors for a really hot demographic that SC2 has access to, and that's harder for advertisers to communicate with as the younger demo tends to spend a lot more time on their computers than watching TV.
I'm kind of curous what kind of response they get, and even more curious if this model is sustainable.
And the PPV model has a very big downside. If casual fans aren't being exposed to your major events, how do you grow the fanbase? Not good for the growth of ESports.
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This is a really good response and I liked and agree with your point that maybe $10 would actually end up being more profitable for MLG. I personally would pay the 20 if werent such a busy exam week for me, but I think that especially for the first time doing this $10 would be a smarter move
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SoCal, USA3955 Posts
I just thought of a totally good idea, but it's sorta too late since this PPV seems set in stone, and the only solution is probably MLG lowering the price later before the event. It could have gone like this:
Hey guys we are gonna kick off our MLG Arena! This first event will be FREE. Watching this first event our casters will be plugging in our discount code for the next MLG which will be PPV!
That might have grabbed a bit more people for the next event that would be PPV. Ease up the views for a PPV. Dunno just a thought!
Ohyeah and this thread so awesome cause it gave both sides of the argument! :D
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Excellent and fast post. I really hope this does not affect your (EG's) relationship with mlg since it wasn't all roses.
On February 14 2012 15:07 ottersareneat wrote:
What do you think of the $20 price point?
I think it’s too high - especially within the context of how other SC2 content providers’ packages are priced. I think that the weekend should cost $10. I think MLG would actually make more money with a $10 price tag for the weekend pass, because I think they’d get more than twice the subscribers at $10 than they’ll get at $20. But that may be just me.
Anyway, that’s the primary, overarching reason why EG is not participating in the referral program.
While I believe this may be the case, I also have a feeling mlg gave you a some what shitty deal, like couple of dollars per referred purchase, and you felt like you could only make a couple hundred dollars max. But if the deal made you enough money would you then had gone with the 20$ overall price?
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
TY Alex for this post.
Dear MLG: I love you guys. And honestly, I would be willing to give u guys some sort of money to show my support. But $20 for a weekend is just asking too much. I'm sorry but if u want my money, u will need to drop that price
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looks like sc2 is heading in the PPV direction. Not a fan of this at all. I believe there are better ways to create sustainability and moneterise sc2
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On February 14 2012 15:28 Gorlin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 15:18 Proko wrote:
I think 2012 is the year where we see big SC2 cutbacks, growth and revenue are not keeping up with spending.
I would love to pay for MLG's arena, but 20$ is just too high. "Esports is gunna have a withdrawal this year. I will respond by helping that happen." I'm baffled. I agree with Alex that the price is probably too high, but for what they are doing (paying for every player's trip, good sized prize pool, probably amazing production), come on. If you want to see the scene to actually become something, put in some damn effort and actually invest in what you love. If you don't love it, then you don't deserve it anyway.
Esports will only work with functional business models. If the product isn't worth the price I don't help anybody by buying it. You need a product that people want long term, at a price they are willing to pay. It's not about what I deserve, I'd be a foolish consumer if I didn't vote with my dollars.
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my very first reaction when the news hit was to do exactly as you are proposing. I immidiatley wrote Sundance a tweet tellign him i like the idea, but 20 bucks was way too much. Also totally agreet hat 10$ would be a very suitable price that would get more than double the viewrs 20$ will bring.
Then again I and you might be worng on that
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Thanks Alex, it was a great read, and I agree with you.
I will have a good think about it.
(P.S. I think otters are neat too)
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Thanks for the input Alex. I agree its overpriced and hopefully they'll lower it next time so MLG can have my money.
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On February 14 2012 15:21 StarStruck wrote:
I think it's way too early to be trying to sell PPVs as well. From their charts they believe they'll make more at the $20 price point.
Other thing that puzzles me is the fact they're flying all of the players down for what exactly? I want to know what promotional materials they have lined up. I don't see the marketing strategy and this announcement was incredibly late.
This is way too short-term.
Buying the ticket and voicing your concerns isn't productive either. You would still be supporting it.
Take the money and run.
Good song.
Well the hype of having all 32 players in a live event setting is usually pretty big, and adds legitimacy.
Overall I think MLG will have to lower the price point, especially if someone is already buying a gold pass. Also I hope they plan on in the next event working to secure a GomTV style event where they can get 100 spectators in there, hell rent a party(or whole bar) room in bar out. I think the in a big city like NYC they could easily get a few hundred people to pass in and out over the weekend. No idea on the cost of renting a bar for the weekend, but it can't be that crazy high if you guarantee a certain amount of drinks bought/ food purchased.
I just can't believe they aren't able to have room for a live audience, I mean if your already forking over 100k to get everyone there, there has got to a way to have enough room for a live audience. I sure they explored a ton of options, but I still hope they try and work something out for future events.
I understand you cant increase the amount of content for free, but as a gold member I would expect a discount. somewhere between 25%-50%. If they sell gold memberships for $30 and then 6 PPV events at $10 or maybe $15.
I could see a lot of people going for it at $30+(90)*.66=$90 for 10 full weekends of SCII entertainment. A very reasonable rate, not gomtv but hey at least the HQ stream isn't 480p.
Overall I really like the direction MLG is going, even if the pricing on this isn't quite right. If MLG can make this work we wouldn't be that far from moving toward Korean BW style leagues. Eventually in a year or two if they could prove this sustainable I imagine the goal would be to get top teams to relocate players to the NYC area to host a GOMTV style tourney. Hell MLG could pay housing for a couple Korean teams with the amount they will be paying in Airfare and lodging this year alone(It crazy the amount of international flights the are paying for 24 *6 and 16 *4 for pro circuit. Up to a maximum of 208 + NA qualifiers)
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Instead of PPV I think they should sell physical HD DVDs with some cool bonuses.
It actually works really well in the subculture streaming communities, often getting sold out. The problem I see with PPV is that you are not getting anything tangible.
Give the customers a nice fancy box and I think they'd more than willingly pay $20 to support the scene.
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E) Just watch Assembly for free
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On February 14 2012 15:36 ilbh wrote:
if I understood correctly, there will be a free stream. isnt it?
no there will not be a free stream for the winter area. One thing i'm not sure about is what alex ment by this "I wish (for a variety of reasons) that MLG would take a freemium approach (i.e., free low-quality stream, PPV high-quality stream) to their Arena events, just as they’ll do for their Championship events."
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Option A for me. But I think for 95%+ of people it's going to be option B. Really, $20 is just too much for 1 weekend of content when there's tons of other content around for free.
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On February 14 2012 15:47 Whiteman103 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 15:36 ilbh wrote:
if I understood correctly, there will be a free stream. isnt it? no there will not be a free stream for the winter area. One thing i'm not sure about is what alex ment by this "I wish (for a variety of reasons) that MLG would take a freemium approach (i.e., free low-quality stream, PPV high-quality stream) to their Arena events, just as they’ll do for their Championship events."
The Winter Arena (and all subsequent Arena Events) will be Pay Per View.
The Championship Events (akin to last year's MLG Pro Circuit Events) will still feature a "freemium" (Free LQ, Paid HQ) format.
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On February 14 2012 15:40 Jarree wrote:Excellent and fast post. I really hope this does not affect your (EG's) relationship with mlg since it wasn't all roses. Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 15:07 ottersareneat wrote:
What do you think of the $20 price point?
I think it’s too high - especially within the context of how other SC2 content providers’ packages are priced. I think that the weekend should cost $10. I think MLG would actually make more money with a $10 price tag for the weekend pass, because I think they’d get more than twice the subscribers at $10 than they’ll get at $20. But that may be just me.
Anyway, that’s the primary, overarching reason why EG is not participating in the referral program.
While I believe this may be the case, I also have a feeling mlg gave you a some what shitty deal, like couple of dollars per referred purchase, and you felt like you could only make a couple hundred dollars max. But if the deal made you enough money would you then had gone with the 20$ overall price?
No, I wouldn't have participated in the referral program unless the overall price point was lowered.
From a personal perspective, I wouldn't feel comfortable pushing a product upon the community, and profiting from sales of said product, if I felt that the price point was unreasonable (both for moral reasons, and because once you push people to buy something that they know isn't worth the money, you instantly lose all of your credibility), and from a business perspective, it doesn't matter how good the revshare is if the product isn't going to sell.
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The way I see it freemium is the only option that could make the industry survive and grow at the same time. In order for us all to live we need both and PPV-only will stop all growth and even remove a considerable amount of the viewerbase.
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Amazing post Alex. Think it says a lot to try and get people to voice their concerns and spend their money as they see fit while actually not looking to profit from a system you see as flawed. Granted I'm sure you make more than the average SC2 fan lol. But I don't think most people would take it in the balls revenue wise to voice their opinion.
Personally I'm torn between A and B. Depends whats going on that weekend.
I don't want to see MLG fail, but I also think they may have slightly overstepped things. We'll find out how it all pans out I guess.
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Thanks for posting, it definitely puts another perspective on things.
If someone didn't work, it'd be super tough for that person to get the money for this, I know for me, $20 is a big chunk in the college student budget D: (I only work enough to get like 100$ every 2 weeks, and I gotta get gas and groceries with that D.
So Sundance, for now, my money is yours because you've proven quality production and effort in listening to the community and improving MLG, but $20... Damn you're getting close to the border of my wallet's desire to watch MLG O.o
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Although I understand the reason to have PPV, it's a very high risk I believe. Many people tune into MLG and tournaments and events for the players they like, matchups, or for a game or two. For this reason alone, I think many people are discouraged at the $20 pricetag. Indeed $10 seems like a much better price. But it's completely understandable. I just wish they allowed LQ free streaming T_T. People without access to credit/debit cards or paypal or underaged or broke will be very sad pandabearguys. I agree with your statement sir.
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I feel everybody in the community should choose option B,C, or D to send MLG a clear message. $10 would be the right price and I feel MLG didn't consult the right parties before making it $20.
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Remember that one time when everyone hated you Alex? Man, those were good times.
Anyway, maybe the price tag could go down, but I've been trying to explain what you've already said to everyone. I'm willing to pay for it, but I think a lot of other people would too, especially if they give Gold subscribers a discount. Plus, more people would get gold because then they get Arena at discount, and HD Championship.
Good post, my friend. You're always good with words, and this time was no different.
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For once I agree with everything that Alex has said about MLG.
However, the referral system mentioned at the beginning is not good and I think that some sort of open forum needs to be had in devising an adequate method of revenue sharing.
But yes... One of the issues being that MLG's content hasnt bee previewed for the Arena is one thing that makes me think negatively about the $20.. But for me I will spend the $20 and then if it turns out not to be worth $20 I will /whine all over the internet.
Alex is better at writing than I am, but he has hit some points I've been making right on the head.
Nice post!
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Would rather watch programmers stream than pay 20$ tbh, it's just to much.
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Uh, I feel a bit cheated since I bought a Gold-pass a couple of months ago for the sole reason to watch the upcoming MLGs in HD and not having to pay additional money for it every time.
If I had known this was coming beforehand, I would never had payed that sum of money for watching three MLGs in HD.
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$10 is ideal, but whether right or wrong, MLG seems to have played their hand as if most viewers are willing to watch only if the event is completely free. They're hedging on the "shut up and take my money" crowd, and we'll see how that works.
If you want to watch some of MLG that weekend but don't like the idea of shelling out, please, find your local Barcraft and show up! Buy a plate of nachos or something for $10 and watch the matches in good company.
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The Arena is not a Pro Circuit event...
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I doubt I'd even pay $10. It's a terrible value proposition compared to what's out there. And my charity is reserved for those less fortunate. It's kinda sad people in business even asking for it.
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It's beyond my comprehension why the PPV style market has developed for pro gaming competitions.
It just doesn't make sense to create a great competitive event and then expose it to as few people as possible... especially for something like pro gaming, which has so much room to grow if more people were exposed to it.
There's a damn good reason that virtually every sport or competitive event in the world (besides boxing) puts on a free show and makes their income through sponsorship and advertising. You want to build a large fanbase who will tune in for all the big events, so you can make more and more advertising money.
The PPV format is just plain stupid. It only succeeds for boxing and pro wrestling, which feature "special attraction" events that you will not see anywhere else unless you take this one chance to watch it. But this doesn't apply to pro gaming... why would you pay $20 to see Korean pros face each other, when you can see it for free every week or two, or almost every day if you're awake during GSL hours?
It really pains me to see one of the largest forces in e-sports latch on to these completely wrong-headed ideas like PPV, restricting content, and Extended Series.
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While I don't think disputing the charge is a great idea right off the bat, I do think that it should be noted that MLG did play this very sketchily.
I, luckily, didn't shell out the money for Gold membership because I don't get paid until this coming Thursday.
I'll probably still end up paying to watch because not only do I enjoy watching, it's part of my (other) job to keep tabs on just about every player I can.
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As a huge fan of EG, MLG, GSL, hell eSports as a whole, this post was simply....amazing. It laid out the truth and it gave the thoughts of someone who I hold to the highest respect, this was a post that gets 5/5 from me.
I do, however, think that $20 is quite to high. I will be the first to say that there is not an org. that I would give my money to faster than eSports, but this is a bit to much. I am a GOLD MEMBER on MLG and I feel a bit cheated that I have to pay the same that everyone else has to, ONTOP of my membership fee's.
Then comes the question, will i continue to be a GOLD MEMBER even if I have to pay the same amount, the answer is up in the air at this point. Im torn on what to do. I want to be able to support MLG in anyway I can, but at the same time, I can't afford it.. D: what to do, is that big question...!!!
Over all, I think that this is something that needs to be atleast tried to figure out whether or not it will work. (imo if the price was lower, it would work much better) So I will be forking over the extra $20 to have my mind blown as EG takes 1/4th place!!!
Mad respect to you, Alex, TEAM EG, and all of the MLG staff!!!!
Hope you find my thoughts helpful,
Tommy
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On February 14 2012 16:00 Raelcun wrote:The Arena is not a Pro Circuit event...
Wrong.
http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit
"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event."
The circuit is the entire season, the championship event is just the conclusion in MLG's own words. Orginally Gold Members were given "Access to HQ Pro Circuit Streams" for one year, and it changed to "Access to MLG Pro Circuit Championship Broadcasts in HD".
"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit is a series of live events running throughout 2012. This is the third year to include StarCraft 2, a game that continues to rise in prominence in MLG events."
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_MLG_Pro_Circuit
That is bait and switch. I should receive access to all Pro Circuit events with my Gold Membership until it expires.
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On February 14 2012 16:00 VirgilSC2 wrote:While I don't think disputing the charge is a great idea right off the bat, I do think that it should be noted that MLG did play this very sketchily. I, luckily, didn't shell out the money for Gold membership because I don't get paid until this coming Thursday. I'll probably still end up paying to watch because not only do I enjoy watching, it's part of my (other) job to keep tabs on just about every player I can.
I'm not defending what they did but encouraging people to chargeback is not what should be happening right now I agree with Virgil
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On February 14 2012 15:56 FXOpen wrote:
For once I agree with everything that Alex has said about MLG.
However, the referral system mentioned at the beginning is not good and I think that some sort of open forum needs to be had in devising an adequate method of revenue sharing.
But yes... One of the issues being that MLG's content hasnt bee previewed for the Arena is one thing that makes me think negatively about the $20.. But for me I will spend the $20 and then if it turns out not to be worth $20 I will /whine all over the internet.
Alex is better at writing than I am, but he has hit some points I've been making right on the head.
Nice post!
A rarity indeed.
There is one thing I don't agree with however. I would never pay for something and voice my concerns after the fact because once you paid. You paid.
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Agreed - it's not the PPV that has the pitchforks up but rather the pricing - compared to the GSL - a light ticket costs $70 for 5 GSLs, whilst this is $20 for a 3-day event. A PPV can succeed but the pricing is important. I also agree that the revenue will be greater with a $10 ticket price.
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I'm going to buy a pass, even though the $20 seems a bit steep. It's going to help support esports, so I'm okay with that, but I agree that they'd be better off lowering the price to get more people to purchase them. I do completely agree with the business model they've chosen though, I can't see why people would have a problem with things moving in this direction, especially after the elaboration on this that Alex gave.
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On February 14 2012 16:02 Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:00 VirgilSC2 wrote:While I don't think disputing the charge is a great idea right off the bat, I do think that it should be noted that MLG did play this very sketchily. I, luckily, didn't shell out the money for Gold membership because I don't get paid until this coming Thursday. I'll probably still end up paying to watch because not only do I enjoy watching, it's part of my (other) job to keep tabs on just about every player I can. I'm not defending what they did but encouraging people to chargeback is not what should be happening right now I agree with Virgil
To each their own I suppose. I don't like paying for things then not receiving what I paid for.
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Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.).
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I love MLGs, but 20 dollars on a few hours of entertainment as a college student doesn't really make sense for me to get.
I would consider 10, I would watch the entire weekend's livestream and provide whatever ad revenue from me being a viewer, but 20 dollars cash on something that isn't a date or something I have to buy for life/school isn't my idea of a plan.
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I won't be able to convince my friends to pay 20$ to watch starcraft2, realistically - how do you draw in more new viewers when it's going to cost them 20$? E-sport's is currently so fragile and delicate that i don't think this risk is worth the reward... Even if you do make the profits you wanted, you won't gain new viewers, and new viewers are what is needed... if the same people buy a pass every weekend, it's failure to grow and expand - which is what we're trying to do here isn't it?
Not only that, but my wife would look at me like I'm crazy if i told her i was dropping 20$ to watch some guys play video games. Sure, I understand it, I have passion for it, but she has no clue what the hell that purple stuff all over the map even is... She just won't be supportive and my family and wife being happy is more important to me than some greedy esports company, to put it bluntly... The simple fact that there isn't a free or lower cost package (like LQ for 5-10$) blows my mind... I don't even watch events in HD because my bandwidth is junk most of the time... I'm sure i'm not the only one who opts for lower quality to enjoy a lagless event.
MLG is making a big big mistake, I don't see this benefitting anyone but themselves. They put out a referral program, which is cool but don't take it as they're trying to help teams out - in the end they're only trying to help themselves and using teams as their salesman... Sure you'll get a cut, but the simple fact is you're just being used as a tool for MLG to make more profits.
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I pretty much agree. I don't think it's worth $20 and I'm not entirely opposed to PPV models, I just wish they'd put the price at a competitive amount. It's way too easy to choose ~2 months of Amazing GSL content over 3 days of maybe awesome MLG content.
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Wow. EG decided to really throw their weight around. I wonder how MLG will take to this.
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On February 14 2012 16:00 tdt wrote:
I doubt I'd even pay $10. It's a terrible value proposition compared to what's out there. And my charity is reserved for those less fortunate. It's kinda sad people in business even asking for it.
i agree.
The only ones getting money for SC2 are GSL and Homestory Cup. Paying 20 bucks for an event held in the US at crazy times (for EU) ist just pathetic. I might watch 1-4 games max, which would be 5 dollars for 1 BO3. hahahaha forget it.
gg no re.
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thank you for this statement
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On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.).
This is incorrect. Check my last post above.
http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit
"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event."
The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit.
MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case.
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I keep seeing this production value and stream quality complaints come up. Keep in mind, this tournament will be taking place at MLG studios, not a convention center that they have for a week. The production and stream quality should be much better for the Arena's compared to what we saw on the pro circuit due to it being in a fixed location.
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I keep seeing this production value and stream quality complaints come up. Keep in mind, this tournament will be taking place at MLG studios, not a convention center that they have for a week. The production and stream quality should be much better for the Arena's compared to what we saw on the pro circuit due to it being in a fixed location.
I totally agree:D:D good thought:D:D <3!!
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Just to put some things in perspective, I did a little digging back, and there was NOTHING that would lead anyone to believe MLG's Winter Arena was NOT part of the "2012 Pro Circuit"
In this interview, the MLG Winter Arena Online Qualifiers, MLG Winter Arena, and MLG Winter Championship are all referred to as part of the 2012 Pro Circuit.
In all previous mentions of the Winter Arena (bar the initial mention of prize pools being separate from the Championship Events) no differentiation was made between the Winter Arena and Winter Championship as far as the Pro Circuit is concerned.
I think MLG should have announced this either:
a) With the announcement of the new 2012 Pro Circuit [and Arenas, since apparently they are not part of the Pro Circuit]
or
b) With the re-vamp of the MLG Subscription Program.
Everything about this just screams "exploitation through misinformation" in my mind.
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On February 14 2012 16:10 jmbthirteen wrote:
I keep seeing this production value and stream quality complaints come up. Keep in mind, this tournament will be taking place at MLG studios, not a convention center that they have for a week. The production and stream quality should be much better for the Arena's compared to what we saw on the pro circuit due to it being in a fixed location.
This also means that production costs should be way lower, which is just another argument as to why this is too expensive.
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Im not against the idea of PPV or something similar, My first reaction was "!@#$ off im not paying to watch sc2 !" then, i thought about all the times ive spent 15-25$ on a cricket or football match that lasts 2 hours. When compared to 3 days of sc2 action at its finest, im happy to pay the money.
However, when GSL is a similar price for 3 months of competition (which starts at 10pm my time, perfect for after diner till bedtime viewing) how can i justify spending 20$ over 1 weekend, especially when im not very well off at all.
I echo Alex's sentiments that if they had a cheaper ticket, they would get more money. And also its not just about money, if youre making the same income off 10$ tickets, that means your viewership increased by 200% from the discounted price (and lets be honest sponsors, of MLG and teams, dont care how much MLG charges, they care how many viewers show up.)
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On February 14 2012 16:08 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.). This is incorrect. Check my last post above. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event." The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit. MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case.
"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event."
It states each season contains 1 live championship event, right? Nothing more, nothing less. Just the live event if I'm reading correctly.
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On February 14 2012 16:08 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.). This is incorrect. Check my last post above. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event." The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit. MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case.
Even if this is true encouraging people to chargeback is going to do more harm than good most likely. If a large volume of chargebacks occur on a vendor then the bank they are with is levied fines due to being associated with that vendor. The bank then usually passes those directly on to the vendor including in some cases adding a fine per chargeback that occurs afterwards. Basically if people do what you are proposing it is more likely to directly harm MLG than it is to make them change their mind on the pricing.
How about you give them time to respond to feedback first?
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This also means that production costs should be way lower, which is just another argument as to why this is too expensive.
But if this is better, shouldn't people pay for better production...???
**Just a thought, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing btw:D**
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On February 14 2012 16:11 VirgilSC2 wrote:Just to put some things in perspective, I did a little digging back, and there was NOTHING that would lead anyone to believe MLG's Winter Arena was NOT part of the "2012 Pro Circuit" In this interview, the MLG Winter Arena Online Qualifiers, MLG Winter Arena, and MLG Winter Championship are all referred to as part of the 2012 Pro Circuit. In all previous mentions of the Winter Arena (bar the initial mention of prize pools being separate from the Championship Events) no differentiation was made between the Winter Arena and Winter Championship as far as the Pro Circuit is concerned. I think MLG should have announced this either: a) With the announcement of the new 2012 Pro Circuit [and Arenas, since apparently they are not part of the Pro Circuit] or b) With the re-vamp of the MLG Subscription Program. Everything about this just screams "exploitation through misinformation" in my mind.
Well guess how many gold memberships they would have sold if everyone knew? Not many. There's ways to do business, let's see how this goes.
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As a gold member I'll be doing option C....Most likely I'll get the pass for this one...
But for $20 for ONE weekend this better be the most polished SC stream ever even conceived...It better make GSL look like ****!!!! lol
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Thanks for the interesting read. I honestly think this just comes down to " how much is the community willing to pay, FOR ESPORTS!? " And Esports lives on with or without MLG so their product must be worth the money spent. 20$ is probably not worth a weekend of sc2 like the poll in the other thread says.
I've also edited my post in the other thread to include a new poll if you would like to vote on that, cross-posting it here.
Poll: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members?No (1520) 74% Yes (539) 26% 2059 total votes Your vote: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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On February 14 2012 15:10 Bowzer wrote:
As a disgruntled gold member, I will be doing option C.
For me it isn't about the 20 dollars, I spent 20 dollars on supper tonight. It's the principle of how Sundance convinced us that buying gold memberships was helping pro players and e-sports, and that we'd see big things this year depending on the amount of gold subscribers they got.
Also, I don't see how going PPV at this juncture is going to grow the sport.
Thanks for the support Alex!
That still holds. They wanted to know how many people they could sucker into buying Gold. Now they know (ie. a lot), so they're trying something else.
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On February 14 2012 15:28 Gorlin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 15:18 Proko wrote:
I think 2012 is the year where we see big SC2 cutbacks, growth and revenue are not keeping up with spending.
I would love to pay for MLG's arena, but 20$ is just too high. "Esports is gunna have a withdrawal this year. I will respond by helping that happen." I'm baffled. I agree with Alex that the price is probably too high, but for what they are doing (paying for every player's trip, good sized prize pool, probably amazing production), come on. If you want to see the scene to actually become something, put in some damn effort and actually invest in what you love. If you don't love it, then you don't deserve it anyway.
I think they don't have to pay for all the players lol, why'd they do that anyway? If the players wanna compete, then risk and pay for themselves.
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The expenses are going directly to the players as I've said three times now, which is unnecessary because there is no fan interaction.
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I'm a gold member, since the day they launched it and I'm also going to pay the $20. But Alex is right, Sundance. Gold members probably should get some increased value system. Some of the anger seen here and on twitter is understandable, but a lot of you are really not justified in what you're saying. Wake up and realise that a business needs to be profitable to work.
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On February 14 2012 16:07 krisss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:00 tdt wrote:
I doubt I'd even pay $10. It's a terrible value proposition compared to what's out there. And my charity is reserved for those less fortunate. It's kinda sad people in business even asking for it. i agree. The only ones getting money for SC2 are GSL and Homestory Cup. Paying 20 bucks for an event held in the US at crazy times (for EU) ist just pathetic. I might watch 1-4 games max, which would be 5 dollars for 1 BO3. hahahaha forget it. gg no re.
Exactly, HSC and GSL both offer a 'killer app' worth paying for. So far, most tournaments, ho hum invite players, play games, hope we can collect a check. You won't.
Takes more than that to succeed in business. probably why 90% fail.
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What a good fucking write up, damn...
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They need to offer a product with a unique price. i.e Gold membership for XYZ dollar for all events.
And it have to be competitive with other tournaments (ex:GSL)
Annoucing a PPV 11days before the event is just stupid...
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On February 14 2012 16:15 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:11 VirgilSC2 wrote:Just to put some things in perspective, I did a little digging back, and there was NOTHING that would lead anyone to believe MLG's Winter Arena was NOT part of the "2012 Pro Circuit" In this interview, the MLG Winter Arena Online Qualifiers, MLG Winter Arena, and MLG Winter Championship are all referred to as part of the 2012 Pro Circuit. In all previous mentions of the Winter Arena (bar the initial mention of prize pools being separate from the Championship Events) no differentiation was made between the Winter Arena and Winter Championship as far as the Pro Circuit is concerned. I think MLG should have announced this either: a) With the announcement of the new 2012 Pro Circuit [and Arenas, since apparently they are not part of the Pro Circuit] or b) With the re-vamp of the MLG Subscription Program. Everything about this just screams "exploitation through misinformation" in my mind. Well guess how many gold memberships they would have sold if everyone knew? Not many. There's ways to do business, let's see how this goes.
There's a reason "bait and switch" exists as fraud in the business world: To prevent companies from doing things very similar to what MLG did.
They (in order):
Renew all Silver and Gold recurring subscriptions
Notify users that Silver Memberships are going away, and for SC2 on the 2012 Pro Circuit you will need a Gold Pass
Remove MLG Arena Events from the 2012 Pro Circuit*
Institute $20 "Pay Per Event" (It's not really Pay Per View) for Arena Series.
*The only grounds that keep this from being textbook "bait and switch" fraud is that it's hard to determine whether or not MLG Arenas were designed to be part of the 2012 Pro Circuit, however all evidence points to the fact that it was implied to be included, and then later rescinded. Sundance's Tweets (to be taken with a grain of salt) hint that this was also drafted up after the 2012 Season announcements.
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E) Restreams, fuck the police.
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Personally I love watching starcraft more then any other form of entertainment. I will get more enjoyment spending $20 on MLG weekend then going to see a movie or buying a CD. I can think of very few things that I could spend $20 on and get the same level of entertainment and enjoyment from that money. Also it is a great way to get barcrafts and friends together to watch somthing awesome.
Would I pay $50 dollars to watch UFC? Sometimes I do sometimes I don't. If I like the matchups and the fighters in an event I sure will (normally split the cost with friends) and I don't buy it when I feel the value for me personaly isn't there, whether it be bad matchups or other issues. But thats just my two cents.
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On February 14 2012 15:49 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 15:47 Whiteman103 wrote:On February 14 2012 15:36 ilbh wrote:
if I understood correctly, there will be a free stream. isnt it? no there will not be a free stream for the winter area. One thing i'm not sure about is what alex ment by this "I wish (for a variety of reasons) that MLG would take a freemium approach (i.e., free low-quality stream, PPV high-quality stream) to their Arena events, just as they’ll do for their Championship events." The Winter Arena (and all subsequent Arena Events) will be Pay Per View. The Championship Events (akin to last year's MLG Pro Circuit Events) will still feature a "freemium" (Free LQ, Paid HQ) format.
oh so from what i understand the Areas are just the players no audience lan. and the championship events are like last years MLGs one for each seasons(winter,spring,fall, and summer) will there be a 5th grand finale event?
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On February 14 2012 16:14 SC2.PiXL wrote:Show nested quote +This also means that production costs should be way lower, which is just another argument as to why this is too expensive. But if this is better, shouldn't people pay for better production...??? **Just a thought, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing btw:D**
Yeah, I would be willing to pay for better production. 5$ -10$ maximum for the first year, and if they blow my socks off then maybe more.
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On February 14 2012 16:02 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 15:56 FXOpen wrote:
For once I agree with everything that Alex has said about MLG.
However, the referral system mentioned at the beginning is not good and I think that some sort of open forum needs to be had in devising an adequate method of revenue sharing.
But yes... One of the issues being that MLG's content hasnt bee previewed for the Arena is one thing that makes me think negatively about the $20.. But for me I will spend the $20 and then if it turns out not to be worth $20 I will /whine all over the internet.
Alex is better at writing than I am, but he has hit some points I've been making right on the head.
Nice post! A rarity indeed. There is one thing I don't agree with however. I would never pay for something and voice my concerns after the fact because once you paid. You paid.
MLG have put out entertaining products before. Their circuit is great minus the down time between games. But the Arena model is much easier for thme to ease this pain. If this downtime occurs, I will be at MLG Arena, and I will get my $20 back by pick pocketing sundance if I have to. There is no excuse with this format to have downtime between games longer than 5-10 minutes.
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While a respected team manager's email has great potential to influence MLG, I kinda doubt an email from just some average viewer like me would even be read. Anyway, I had no pitchforks - it's MLG's choice what to do and how to do it; if they really see that they make more money with this strategy, fine with me, even if I don't watch their events.
What I think though, is that they might lose a large number of keen fans who follow their stuff - and still get enough profit to justify that, from the fewer people who will pay. This would be fine for them in terms of profit, but I think MLG's biggest strength so far was the great audience that defined them, and they might lose it.
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On February 14 2012 16:14 Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:08 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.). This is incorrect. Check my last post above. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event." The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit. MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case. Even if this is true encouraging people to chargeback is going to do more harm than good most likely. If a large volume of chargebacks occur on a vendor then the bank they are with is levied fines due to being associated with that vendor. The bank then usually passes those directly on to the vendor including in some cases adding a fine per chargeback that occurs afterwards. Basically if people do what you are proposing it is more likely to directly harm MLG than it is to make them change their mind on the pricing. How about you give them time to respond to feedback first?
Alright guys, let me make it simple for you:
Look at the Logo for the Winter Arena and tell me it isn't part of the Pro Circuit:
![[image loading]](http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9915/mlgfs.jpg)
It is not hard to determine whether or not the Arena is part of the Pro Circuit!
http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/
I recommend you dispute the charge with your Credit Card company as outlined in an earlier post if you paid for a Gold or Silver membership.
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On February 14 2012 16:20 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:15 Jarree wrote:On February 14 2012 16:11 VirgilSC2 wrote:Just to put some things in perspective, I did a little digging back, and there was NOTHING that would lead anyone to believe MLG's Winter Arena was NOT part of the "2012 Pro Circuit" In this interview, the MLG Winter Arena Online Qualifiers, MLG Winter Arena, and MLG Winter Championship are all referred to as part of the 2012 Pro Circuit. In all previous mentions of the Winter Arena (bar the initial mention of prize pools being separate from the Championship Events) no differentiation was made between the Winter Arena and Winter Championship as far as the Pro Circuit is concerned. I think MLG should have announced this either: a) With the announcement of the new 2012 Pro Circuit [and Arenas, since apparently they are not part of the Pro Circuit] or b) With the re-vamp of the MLG Subscription Program. Everything about this just screams "exploitation through misinformation" in my mind. Well guess how many gold memberships they would have sold if everyone knew? Not many. There's ways to do business, let's see how this goes. There's a reason "bait and switch" exists as fraud in the business world: To prevent companies from doing things very similar to what MLG did. They (in order): Renew all Silver and Gold recurring subscriptions Notify users that Silver Memberships are going away, and for SC2 on the 2012 Pro Circuit you will need a Gold Pass Remove MLG Arena Events from the 2012 Pro Circuit* Institute $20 "Pay Per Event" (It's not really Pay Per View) for Arena Series. *The only grounds that keep this from being textbook "bait and switch" fraud is that it's hard to determine whether or not MLG Arenas were designed to be part of the 2012 Pro Circuit, however all evidence points to the fact that it was implied to be included, and then later rescinded. Sundance's Tweets (to be taken with a grain of salt) hint that this was also drafted up after the 2012 Season announcements.
Yeah I hear you. But i'm pretty sure what they are doing is legal or at least there is enough deniability. Being an asshole isn't a crime and nobody is going to sue them for this. It's up to customers to decide who they want to support. We'll see how this works out.
edit: ok seeing that screenshot from Bronzeknee... that is really fucked up not "being a part of pro circuit". Not sure about legal even anymore.
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On February 14 2012 15:55 hoby2000 wrote:
Remember that one time when everyone hated you Alex? Man, those were good times.
Amen! 
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They made subscribtion for MLG so I bought it thinking "now I have access to everything with one payment model".
Then another event comes along from MLG and this time they want PPV.
Now, I don't mind giving them money. But this attitude just pisses me off. I SUBSCRIBE for crying outloud not to have to think about individual pricings in same organization. Just give a package deal to your subscribers but stop with adding PPV/ pay once/ pay for weekend.
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I like the way mlg thinks, but I don't like that its not included if you're a gold member.
I will buy it since 20 is not that much to me, but they should be careful when doing stuff like this. There main consumers are people from 15-30, a group that normally don't have a big budget. I hope as many people will buy it tho, would really suck if mlg shuts these arena events down.
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I'm not an EG fan but you, mr Garfield, are the best. Nice post.
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On February 14 2012 16:24 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:20 VirgilSC2 wrote:On February 14 2012 16:15 Jarree wrote:On February 14 2012 16:11 VirgilSC2 wrote:Just to put some things in perspective, I did a little digging back, and there was NOTHING that would lead anyone to believe MLG's Winter Arena was NOT part of the "2012 Pro Circuit" In this interview, the MLG Winter Arena Online Qualifiers, MLG Winter Arena, and MLG Winter Championship are all referred to as part of the 2012 Pro Circuit. In all previous mentions of the Winter Arena (bar the initial mention of prize pools being separate from the Championship Events) no differentiation was made between the Winter Arena and Winter Championship as far as the Pro Circuit is concerned. I think MLG should have announced this either: a) With the announcement of the new 2012 Pro Circuit [and Arenas, since apparently they are not part of the Pro Circuit] or b) With the re-vamp of the MLG Subscription Program. Everything about this just screams "exploitation through misinformation" in my mind. Well guess how many gold memberships they would have sold if everyone knew? Not many. There's ways to do business, let's see how this goes. There's a reason "bait and switch" exists as fraud in the business world: To prevent companies from doing things very similar to what MLG did. They (in order): Renew all Silver and Gold recurring subscriptions Notify users that Silver Memberships are going away, and for SC2 on the 2012 Pro Circuit you will need a Gold Pass Remove MLG Arena Events from the 2012 Pro Circuit* Institute $20 "Pay Per Event" (It's not really Pay Per View) for Arena Series. *The only grounds that keep this from being textbook "bait and switch" fraud is that it's hard to determine whether or not MLG Arenas were designed to be part of the 2012 Pro Circuit, however all evidence points to the fact that it was implied to be included, and then later rescinded. Sundance's Tweets (to be taken with a grain of salt) hint that this was also drafted up after the 2012 Season announcements. Yeah I hear you. But i'm pretty sure what they are doing is legal or at least there is enough deniability. Being an asshole isn't a crime and nobody is going to sue them for this. It's up to customers to decide who they want to support. We'll see how this works out.
Their current way of advertising the Winter Arena makes it pretty clear that, if not intended to be part of the 2012 Pro Circuit as advertised, this was used to "fraud" customers into spending extra money towards MLG.
![[image loading]](http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/7641/wintercircuit.png)
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On February 14 2012 15:10 Bowzer wrote:
As a disgruntled gold member, I will be doing option C.
For me it isn't about the 20 dollars, I spent 20 dollars on supper tonight. It's the principle of how Sundance convinced us that buying gold memberships was helping pro players and e-sports, and that we'd see big things this year depending on the amount of gold subscribers they got.
Also, I don't see how going PPV at this juncture is going to grow the sport.
Thanks for the support Alex!
This exactly.
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The new PPV will stop me from watching this event simply because I am in a completely different time-zone and am therefor an occasional viewer and not willing to pay (anything really) for the few games I am able to watch. I really don't know how many like me are out there, but I hope the revenue weighs up againt "our" departure.
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NO write-up can save face for MLG clearly shooting themselves in the foot.
A spade is a spade.
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On February 14 2012 16:23 figq wrote:
While a respected team manager's email has great potential to influence MLG, I kinda doubt an email from just some average viewer like me would even be read.
You're wrong about this. Please email them.
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I feel that calling this "fraud" is crazy....they are simply tring something new. MLG is not tring to pull the wool over ppls eyes, they are simply tring to my money and improve thier show. :D:D
*no hate btw*
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I would be more than happy paying 10 rather than 20, but the whole thing being announced as PPV so close to the start of the event irks me. I think MLG is going to be extremely dissapointed with the viewership for this, I'm not sure they are thinking correctly here.
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I would pay if it's 15
actually I'd pay regardless because I'd like to have an esports model that works... but I'd be more inclined to do so at 15 (although pressure from parents wanting me to actually do work than do "game stuff" is making it so I probably cant until like around july.... t.t)
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On February 14 2012 16:32 SC2.PiXL wrote:
I feel that calling this "fraud" is crazy....they are simply tring something new. MLG is not tring to pull the wool over ppls eyes, they are simply tring to my money and improve thier show. :D:D
*no hate btw*
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck... and so far, the whole affair walks and talks like bait and switch for gold members (which thankfully I decided against at the last moment).
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Leave it to Alex to lay down some knowledge. Cheers
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On February 14 2012 16:32 SC2.PiXL wrote:
I feel that calling this "fraud" is crazy....they are simply tring something new. MLG is not tring to pull the wool over ppls eyes, they are simply tring to my money and improve thier show. :D:D
*no hate btw*
How it is not fraud?
This is what I paid for: "Access to HQ Pro Circuit Streams"
MLG changed it so Gold Members now recieve: "Access to MLG Pro Circuit Championship Broadcasts in HD"
So now I only get access to Championship Broadcasts. Think the Winter Arena isn't part of the Pro Circuit? Check out the screenshots on the last page. It was bait and switch.
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I'm really not sure you can say "I paid for that" when the event in question wasn't even announced when you bought the Gold Membership. If they'd said Gold would include them, and specifically named the events, you might have a point. As it is, you bought Gold Membership to watch the circuit without knowing that Arena existed and you're still getting the same product for your money now.
Am I missing something?
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On February 14 2012 16:24 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:14 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:08 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.). This is incorrect. Check my last post above. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event." The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit. MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case. Even if this is true encouraging people to chargeback is going to do more harm than good most likely. If a large volume of chargebacks occur on a vendor then the bank they are with is levied fines due to being associated with that vendor. The bank then usually passes those directly on to the vendor including in some cases adding a fine per chargeback that occurs afterwards. Basically if people do what you are proposing it is more likely to directly harm MLG than it is to make them change their mind on the pricing. How about you give them time to respond to feedback first? Alright guys, let me make it simple for you: Look at the Logo for the Winter Arena and tell me it isn't part of the Pro Circuit:It is not hard to determine whether or not the Arena is part of the Pro Circuit! http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/I recommend you dispute the charge with your Credit Card company as outlined in an earlier post if you paid for a Gold or Silver membership.
Let me use simple words so you can understand.
Encouraging chargebacks in large volumes to MLG will only result in them paying fines if successful.
Do you honestly think trying to harm MLG financially will get them to reduce prices or give out discounts you believe that they are shorting you?
This is not about if the Arena is part of the pro circuit, your idea is just bad.
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Sundance, as a young professional with far to much disposable income, my reserve price is $12.
I have every GSL season ticket, every special event, and several MLG tickets. If you could offer me everything for the year for $80 (MLG HD and Arena), I'd pay it up front.
There is still time to fix this up and get me to spend my money on MLG! Adopt GSL's model and I'm in. I'd be willing to bet that for every 1 who would have bought at $20, there's at least two of me.
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I echo the sentiment here that gold members are getting the short end of the stick, but really this was a long time coming. I'm really amazed that e-sports events such as Assembly and MLG have even managed to stay afloat financially. Thus far the revenues for all these events have been through advertising only, and that simply won't cut it for just how much even just the venue costs. God, I really hope that all this e-sports bananza in the west is not just one massive bubble.
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Also MLG should remake their horrific website so you can actually find vods there
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there goes mlg as the biggest non korean event ..
while i dont understand why a team opens a thread like this (even tho you are trying to be nice to mlg ),
no ppv means i wont watch (i dont even know if i could without a cc?)
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On February 14 2012 16:24 BronzeKnee wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Alright guys, let me make it simple for you: Look at the Logo for the Winter Arena and tell me it isn't part of the Pro Circuit:It is not hard to determine whether or not the Arena is part of the Pro Circuit! http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/I recommend you dispute the charge with your Credit Card company as outlined in an earlier post if you paid for a Gold or Silver membership .
Ok yeah that's pretty bs how they changed that, sorry for doubting you BronzeKnee D:. That's some sneaky moves by MLG :O
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The timing I'm sure is making some people salty. I personally don't understand not showing something beforehand. "Hey guys, we want to charge now for out business model. But since this is sort of new ground for e-sports here's what people can expect so you don't feel like we're just trying to rape money from the scene." And possibly having a minievent for free to showcase how everything has improved or the first even is free or something. The way it is now it does seem like sort of a crap shoot since no one has any idea what to expect. Is it going to be stream crashing, 30 mins of staring at the crowd between matches, paused games, wtf is happening? Or is it going to be mind blowing, totally awesome, man everyone who didn't get this missed out! ?
This is make it or break it essentially, and trying to get people to throw $20 in blindly doesn't seem like the brightest move.
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On February 14 2012 16:38 Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:24 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:14 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:08 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.). This is incorrect. Check my last post above. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event." The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit. MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case. Even if this is true encouraging people to chargeback is going to do more harm than good most likely. If a large volume of chargebacks occur on a vendor then the bank they are with is levied fines due to being associated with that vendor. The bank then usually passes those directly on to the vendor including in some cases adding a fine per chargeback that occurs afterwards. Basically if people do what you are proposing it is more likely to directly harm MLG than it is to make them change their mind on the pricing. How about you give them time to respond to feedback first? Alright guys, let me make it simple for you: Look at the Logo for the Winter Arena and tell me it isn't part of the Pro Circuit:It is not hard to determine whether or not the Arena is part of the Pro Circuit! http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/I recommend you dispute the charge with your Credit Card company as outlined in an earlier post if you paid for a Gold or Silver membership. Let me use simple words so you can understand. Encouraging chargebacks in large volumes to MLG will only result in them paying fines if successful. Do you honestly think trying to harm MLG financially will get them to reduce prices or give out discounts you believe that they are shorting you? This is not about if the Arena is part of the pro circuit, your idea is just bad.
You were wrong about the Arena not being in the Pro Circuit and I think you're wrong about this too. MLG is committing fraud, and they deserve to be punished. No one is above the law, even if they provide content I enjoy.
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Really good Post Alex, I will not spend $20 dollars I am poor T_T and for 1 weekend event which I will be switching between and assembly I don't think I could dish out that amount of money. The reason that MMA and Wrestling get such high numbers is the demographic that buys the PPV is mostly male adults, maybe some kids convince their parents. The biggest group of Starcraft 2 Fans are College students like myself who try to support when we can. I agree 10 would be more reasonable, but offering a free Stream should be a must even if it's 240p quality.
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$20 is too much. $10 would be a tough debate and $5 would make me consider it greatly.
I will never pay $20 to watch a tournament that is lower tier than the GSL. Espesially since it is over a 3 day period the overall level of player will be lower just due to the fact that there is no time for player/race-specific practice among players.
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The OP is really, really reasonable.
I absolutely won't be spending the $20. It's too much. I would spend $10. I say this having spent money on SC2 events before. I bought a Silver subscription for MLGs last year and I bought an annual GSL pass for 2012.
I'll likely go to a barcraft to watch some MLG, but it's a shame because I'll end up watching maybe a 1/3 of the MLG content I would have at home at a $10 price point.
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Pitchforks up or down, doesn't matter. $20 PPV won't work.
The price point to match is the GSL season ticket. MLG Arena doesn't even come close. If you want to watch Nestea, DRG, Leenock and company competing in high-stakes games, it doesn't get any higher than Code S. If I want to watch NA/EU players get face-smashed by Koreans, I can watch the foreigner seeds into Code S. The idea that MLG could get away with $20 for a three-day event is ridiculous.
And before people start talking about movies or boxing, MLG is not a $200 million movie. Or a boxing championship between two guys who fight three times a year. It will be 32 guys who play dozens of tournaments a year. At best, you can compare MLG to the Australian Open or Wimbledon. And guess what? I can watch that for free.
MLG has held some well-run tournaments, but there's plenty of competition. Dreamhack, IEM, IPL, NASL, Homestory Cup - each with their own production costs and quality level. We'll find out just how much people think MLG is worth.
This whole "supporting e-sports" thing is just thinly-veiled entitlement. You're not saving babies or curing cancer here. You are fighting for the entertainment dollar. So compete on value. ESV just showed a massive quantity of Code-A-level SC2 matches, today. Four free HD streams, with VOD archival. Why? Because they can. Because running an online tournament and casting from replays is extremely cheap. If that's the level of SC2 that is sustainable, that's just fine with me. Maybe that's the smart business model. If it's between $20 for MLG Arena, or ESV Grand Prix + $20 for something else, ESV wins.
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On February 14 2012 16:38 Raelcun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:24 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:14 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:08 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.). This is incorrect. Check my last post above. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event." The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit. MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case. Even if this is true encouraging people to chargeback is going to do more harm than good most likely. If a large volume of chargebacks occur on a vendor then the bank they are with is levied fines due to being associated with that vendor. The bank then usually passes those directly on to the vendor including in some cases adding a fine per chargeback that occurs afterwards. Basically if people do what you are proposing it is more likely to directly harm MLG than it is to make them change their mind on the pricing. How about you give them time to respond to feedback first? Alright guys, let me make it simple for you: Look at the Logo for the Winter Arena and tell me it isn't part of the Pro Circuit:It is not hard to determine whether or not the Arena is part of the Pro Circuit! http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/I recommend you dispute the charge with your Credit Card company as outlined in an earlier post if you paid for a Gold or Silver membership. Let me use simple words so you can understand. Encouraging chargebacks in large volumes to MLG will only result in them paying fines if successful. Do you honestly think trying to harm MLG financially will get them to reduce prices or give out discounts you believe that they are shorting you? This is not about if the Arena is part of the pro circuit, your idea is just bad.
Have to agree with Raelcun here.
I'm pretty convinced that what MLG did was, if not fraudulent, extremely close to it. However, processing chargebacks on MLG is not the way to get your voice heard. I'd advise e-mailing their support (much like users, including myself, did after the Silver Renewal) and ask for a refund.
That should get the message across to MLG (and hopefully get you your money back) without harming the organization in a huge way.
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Charging back for a product you will receive is also fraud...
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I would certainly buy the pass for $10, but 20 just is too much for me unless i could split the cost with someone.
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Gotta say Alex gives very timely and informative posts which is one of the main reasons why EG has the a lot of fan support (ie awesome PR!).
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Man with the plan, right here. Well said and I will consider A or B
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I agree with most of the points by Alex, and glad you made this thread. MLG does pay attention to everyone, whether they put your plan into use or not.
With that said, as a former hardcore competitive gamer, and now a casual observer, I bought the Gold membership for precisely things like this. When I heard that they were going to this format, I automatically assumed that the "Arena" part of the season would probably be something that was only available to Gold/Silver members, or something of the sort. As it is now, owning a Gold membership (for a casual observer of eSports like myself) seems useless outside of the slight perks you get for live events (HD, no ads).
I completely agree with paying for things like this, and getting perks by doing so, but I don't know if $20 for each Arena is the right price. The plans I thought might happen with this are:
A) Gold/Silver memberships (or just Gold) are made a little more expensive, to include the Arena phase, as well as the other perks for live events, and the online perks as well. The Arena would ONLY be available to Gold members, unlike live events.
B) There would be a new type of membership to allow for a season pass for all live streaming (Arena, Live event, Online events like Global Invitational, etc.) like a "Platinum" on top of the Gold/Silver.
Basically, I think there should be a way this all can be bundled together, whether you buy a single Arena pass for the year (if the price stays at like $20, then you can pay $50-60 for the whole season, assuming there will be one for each season, equaling 4 of them). Or, the Arena can come at a discount like before. The problem is that the Gold/Silver packages were made before this type of season format was created, but I don't see why there can't be an upgrade of some sort. The people that bought those, are now seeing themselves on the outside having to pay even MORE money, after they have already put some forward to support the league.
I look at it the way ESPN does their Gameplan package for college football. The package is around $115 for the season (12-13 weeks or so of games), but $29.99 for one Saturday. When I want to watch my team play if they are on it, it's $30 to do so, but if I bought the package at the beginning of the year, it's less than $10 a weekend.
So why can't the people who either pay the money for the Gold membership, or would pay in bulk, get these at a discount, or just included? I pay the $30 a year for the Gold membership because I casually watch every live event, but know that the HD and ad free stream is always there for me, and that includes all the games too, not just SC2. As a casual observer, I'm not going to spend $20 more per Arena on top of that.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I think they should have HD stream for paying viewers and SQ free stream for everyone else. I'm pretty sure they'd have received less backlash had they opted for this system similar to the GSL.
I only have so much money to allocate to SC2, and unfortunately GSL will always, ALWAYS be the priority for me and many people.
Either MLG need to restructure their pricing system, or offer content that can rival better tournaments.
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I hope it goes through with being $20, and I'm sorry for the gold members who undoubtedly got shafted. If the completely underwhelming numbers scare the crap out of the MLG, maybe that would spark them into rethinking their approach. Our pleas are most certainly falling on deaf ears (No MLG Lee in sight) but perhaps the underwhelming money being made will cause them to want to find out why their subscription numbers were abysmal.
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I'd pay about USD5 for instant VOD access. I don't want to have to watch it live, but I do not want to wait ages for the VODs either. How about you do something like that, Sundance.
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EG CEO layin it down.
Very nice read and I agree with a lot of it. I think me and my friend (who has a MLG gold pass btw) will end up splitting the cost and watching it together. I recommend this option to others too! Watch it with your friends!!!
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
I can't speak for any particular organization, but this is exactly my feeling about this.
This needed to happen sooner or later as well, if only to make the point to the community that, despite the production fireworks of last year, very very few entities in esports make enough money to stay afloat for the long term, and that this year is probably going to be one in which the tournament schedule gets a little thinner, but hopefully more nimble and stronger in the long run.
We'll see. Stuff is interesting.
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On February 14 2012 16:45 FXOpen wrote:
Charging back for a product you will receive is also fraud...
If you look at the advertising though, they're definitely not receiving the product they purchased. That seems very clear given the huge "MLG Pro Circuit: Winter Arena" ads.
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I'm not going to watch MLG any more if there going to nickel and dime us for every event. Since I am already a Gold member they should give me a free pass but since this is not the case I'm not paying for something twice and now due to this shoddy business practice So I'm going to vote with my Dollar and not buy it.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On February 14 2012 16:44 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:38 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:24 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:14 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:08 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.). This is incorrect. Check my last post above. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event." The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit. MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case. Even if this is true encouraging people to chargeback is going to do more harm than good most likely. If a large volume of chargebacks occur on a vendor then the bank they are with is levied fines due to being associated with that vendor. The bank then usually passes those directly on to the vendor including in some cases adding a fine per chargeback that occurs afterwards. Basically if people do what you are proposing it is more likely to directly harm MLG than it is to make them change their mind on the pricing. How about you give them time to respond to feedback first? Alright guys, let me make it simple for you: Look at the Logo for the Winter Arena and tell me it isn't part of the Pro Circuit:It is not hard to determine whether or not the Arena is part of the Pro Circuit! http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/I recommend you dispute the charge with your Credit Card company as outlined in an earlier post if you paid for a Gold or Silver membership. Let me use simple words so you can understand. Encouraging chargebacks in large volumes to MLG will only result in them paying fines if successful. Do you honestly think trying to harm MLG financially will get them to reduce prices or give out discounts you believe that they are shorting you? This is not about if the Arena is part of the pro circuit, your idea is just bad. Have to agree with Raelcun here. I'm pretty convinced that what MLG did was, if not fraudulent, extremely close to it. However, processing chargebacks on MLG is not the way to get your voice heard. I'd advise e-mailing their support (much like users, including myself, did after the Silver Renewal) and ask for a refund. That should get the message across to MLG (and hopefully get you your money back) without harming the organization in a huge way.
This BronzeKnee guy routinely posts things that lack sense. =/ I remember his name because of his poor posts
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That still holds. They wanted to know how many people they could sucker into buying Gold. Now they know (ie. a lot), so they're trying something else.
I feel this holds extremely true, the more I think about the the more I think sundance has no interest in growing esports and is just interested in his own bottom line. While this is true for most business, esports is not in a place right now that you can have this mindset, you have to take the punches and not make tons of money because it's just not mature enough.
Thinking back to some of sundances tweets etc, it almost feels like he was just saying whatever he could to create an influx of support to get gold members. Remember when he hinted at talking to TV stations about Sc2 and then absolutely nothing came after that, in retrospect just seems like a plug to garner support.
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On February 14 2012 16:44 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:38 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:24 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:14 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:08 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.). This is incorrect. Check my last post above. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event." The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit. MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case. Even if this is true encouraging people to chargeback is going to do more harm than good most likely. If a large volume of chargebacks occur on a vendor then the bank they are with is levied fines due to being associated with that vendor. The bank then usually passes those directly on to the vendor including in some cases adding a fine per chargeback that occurs afterwards. Basically if people do what you are proposing it is more likely to directly harm MLG than it is to make them change their mind on the pricing. How about you give them time to respond to feedback first? Alright guys, let me make it simple for you: Look at the Logo for the Winter Arena and tell me it isn't part of the Pro Circuit:It is not hard to determine whether or not the Arena is part of the Pro Circuit! http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/I recommend you dispute the charge with your Credit Card company as outlined in an earlier post if you paid for a Gold or Silver membership. Let me use simple words so you can understand. Encouraging chargebacks in large volumes to MLG will only result in them paying fines if successful. Do you honestly think trying to harm MLG financially will get them to reduce prices or give out discounts you believe that they are shorting you? This is not about if the Arena is part of the pro circuit, your idea is just bad. Have to agree with Raelcun here. I'm pretty convinced that what MLG did was, if not fraudulent, extremely close to it. However, processing chargebacks on MLG is not the way to get your voice heard. I'd advise e-mailing their support (much like users, including myself, did after the Silver Renewal) and ask for a refund. That should get the message across to MLG (and hopefully get you your money back) without harming the organization in a huge way.
Agreed. At face value this is well-within the boundaries of a legally-disputable claim. The question is if "HD Pro Circuit Streams" was ever more precisely defined. Can anyone with a MLG Gold Membership post up the relevant Terms & Agreements that were probably given to you as were purchasing the Gold Pass? It might have been linked in the "receipt" email you would have gotten. If MLG reserved the right to redefine which streams would be offered under the Gold Membership, than you're screwed, because you bought nothing - you should have read the fine print. But if MLG said that Gold Membership entitles you to HD Pro Circuit Streams, than you can go to court, and ask the court to find that MLG Arena falls under that category. The other approach is to show that the advertisements and promotional materials used for the Gold Membership are false and misleading, when compared with what the terms of the Gold Membership actually are. In either case, you might not win, but class-action lawsuits have been won with much less.
Using credit-card chargebacks is probably not a good idea. I'm not clear on how credit-card companies handle this type of dispute, but as you are in a legal grey-area, at best, tread carefully. For a few isolated cases, like here, it is likely that the credit card company would simply eat the charge, and put a little note next to your account.
Keep that pitchfork up.
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I reject your premise. MLG has crossed a line with me, I'm not going to just forgive them or give them the bennefit of the doubt, especially when they've been completely unrepentant for it so far.
I'm sorry, but being angry and raising pitchfork has its time and place.
If the time and place is NOT a now when MLG suddenly going PPV or dark 10 days before a tournament, then I don't know when is.
What percentage of MLG's revenue goes to the players? Is it nearly enough? I'd love to hear your opinions on that Alex.... because its my view that SC2 players are struggling far worse than MLG is.
Why give $20 to MLG when only 1 or 2 of that will make its way to the players?
Maybe its good for MLG, but they've been stingly with prize money and now they're going to be stingy with their stream..... why should we continue to support them?
We should support TotalBiscuit... that guy is a champ for the players and has a wonderful model with his Shoutcraft event.
Give him $20!
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On February 14 2012 17:08 YMCApylons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:44 VirgilSC2 wrote:On February 14 2012 16:38 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:24 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:14 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:08 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.). This is incorrect. Check my last post above. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event." The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit. MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case. Even if this is true encouraging people to chargeback is going to do more harm than good most likely. If a large volume of chargebacks occur on a vendor then the bank they are with is levied fines due to being associated with that vendor. The bank then usually passes those directly on to the vendor including in some cases adding a fine per chargeback that occurs afterwards. Basically if people do what you are proposing it is more likely to directly harm MLG than it is to make them change their mind on the pricing. How about you give them time to respond to feedback first? Alright guys, let me make it simple for you: Look at the Logo for the Winter Arena and tell me it isn't part of the Pro Circuit:It is not hard to determine whether or not the Arena is part of the Pro Circuit! http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/I recommend you dispute the charge with your Credit Card company as outlined in an earlier post if you paid for a Gold or Silver membership. Let me use simple words so you can understand. Encouraging chargebacks in large volumes to MLG will only result in them paying fines if successful. Do you honestly think trying to harm MLG financially will get them to reduce prices or give out discounts you believe that they are shorting you? This is not about if the Arena is part of the pro circuit, your idea is just bad. Have to agree with Raelcun here. I'm pretty convinced that what MLG did was, if not fraudulent, extremely close to it. However, processing chargebacks on MLG is not the way to get your voice heard. I'd advise e-mailing their support (much like users, including myself, did after the Silver Renewal) and ask for a refund. That should get the message across to MLG (and hopefully get you your money back) without harming the organization in a huge way. Agreed. At face value this is well-within the boundaries of a legally-disputable claim. The question is if "HD Pro Circuit Streams" was ever more precisely defined. Can anyone with a MLG Gold Membership post up the relevant Terms & Agreements that were probably given to you as were purchasing the Gold Pass? It might have been linked in the "receipt" email you would have gotten. If MLG reserved the right to redefine which streams would be offered under the Gold Membership, than you're screwed, because you bought nothing - you should have read the fine print. But if MLG said that Gold Membership entitles you to HD Pro Circuit Streams, than you can go to court, and ask the court to find that MLG Arena falls under that category. The other approach is to show that the advertisements and promotional materials used for the Gold Membership are false and misleading, when compared with what the terms of the Gold Membership actually are. In either case, you might not win, but class-action lawsuits have been won with much less. Using credit-card chargebacks is probably not a good idea. I'm not clear on how credit-card companies handle this type of dispute, but as you are in a legal grey-area, at best, tread carefully. For a few isolated cases, like here, it is likely that the credit card company would simply eat the charge, and put a little note next to your account. Keep that pitchfork up.
$10 says nobody is going to take MLG to court to dispute their gold pass rights.
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PPV does have its merit but starting at $20 is retarded. Start at $5 (Alex thinking $10 isn't unrealistic but to build support and numbers $5, I believe, will stimulate the growth better) and see how its received and raise the price for the next event if demand is off the hook. To go from a free stream to $20 seems greedy and naive. The scene has to grow and mature and I see PPV as a genuine part of the process but solid baby step growth is better in the long run for both MLG and the wider SC2 tournament scene. I don't see value in the offer as GSL is still free and its the best of the best still...
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On February 14 2012 17:02 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:44 VirgilSC2 wrote:On February 14 2012 16:38 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:24 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:14 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:08 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.). This is incorrect. Check my last post above. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event." The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit. MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case. Even if this is true encouraging people to chargeback is going to do more harm than good most likely. If a large volume of chargebacks occur on a vendor then the bank they are with is levied fines due to being associated with that vendor. The bank then usually passes those directly on to the vendor including in some cases adding a fine per chargeback that occurs afterwards. Basically if people do what you are proposing it is more likely to directly harm MLG than it is to make them change their mind on the pricing. How about you give them time to respond to feedback first? Alright guys, let me make it simple for you: Look at the Logo for the Winter Arena and tell me it isn't part of the Pro Circuit:It is not hard to determine whether or not the Arena is part of the Pro Circuit! http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/I recommend you dispute the charge with your Credit Card company as outlined in an earlier post if you paid for a Gold or Silver membership. Let me use simple words so you can understand. Encouraging chargebacks in large volumes to MLG will only result in them paying fines if successful. Do you honestly think trying to harm MLG financially will get them to reduce prices or give out discounts you believe that they are shorting you? This is not about if the Arena is part of the pro circuit, your idea is just bad. Have to agree with Raelcun here. I'm pretty convinced that what MLG did was, if not fraudulent, extremely close to it. However, processing chargebacks on MLG is not the way to get your voice heard. I'd advise e-mailing their support (much like users, including myself, did after the Silver Renewal) and ask for a refund. That should get the message across to MLG (and hopefully get you your money back) without harming the organization in a huge way. This BronzeKnee guy routinely posts things that lack sense. =/ I remember his name because of his poor posts
Funny I his name rings the exact same bell lol. Anyway back on topic, I think the price is too high, but I see no point in through Molotov cocktails at MLG. Just don't buy the pass, and the message will be clear. They know how to count the revenue coming in you know, if they fall short of expectations, then things will be changed, why people are demanding this and that from them is beyond me. However, how Winter Circuit is advertised on the website really implies it should be apart of the Pro Circuit, and therefore included in Gold pass.
From a business standpoint, adding the PPV model on top of the already functioning subscription model is really confusing for the consumers. To avoid this drama, they should have made an announcement about changes several tournaments in advance, so they could at least prepare and people won't cry such a huge shit storm on a nearby tourney. It just woulda been smart of MLG. I believe they should have for this one tournament or two, allow Gold members the tourney for free, then eventually phase in a PPV model to avoid really irking a loyal and fresh customer base that they are trying to hook for the long term.
No new business would ever want to irk their potential customers before their business model is even viable. Businesses usually turn on their customers after they have locked in loyal customers, then they turn on em, it's how it's done in the real world. =D
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On February 14 2012 15:07 ottersareneat wrote:
What do you think of the $20 price point?
I think it’s too high - especially within the context of how other SC2 content providers’ packages are priced. I think that the weekend should cost $10. I think MLG would actually make more money with a $10 price tag for the weekend pass, because I think they’d get more than twice the subscribers at $10 than they’ll get at $20. But that may be just me.
It's not just you... I'm one of those people who would pay $10, but won't pay 20 and I absolutely believe that they'd get more than twice the subscribers at $10.
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This comes from the terms of service.
"MLG RESERVES THE RIGHT, AT ANY TIME, TO CHANGE ITS FEES AND BILLING METHODS, INCLUDING THE ADDITION OF SUPPLEMENTAL FEES OR SEPARATE CHARGES FOR CONTENT OR SERVICES PROVIDED BY MLG, EFFECTIVE THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER ONLINE POSTING AND EMAIL NOTIFICATION. If any such change is unacceptable to you, you may terminate your MEMBERSHIP, as provided below. YOUR CONTINUED USE OF THE MEMBERSHIP PROGRAM FOLLOWING THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF A CHANGE TO SUCH FEES AND BILLING METHODS SHALL CONSTITUTE YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF SUCH CHANGE."
If I understand this right, then they are doing this within 30 days of the event, and therefore going against the terms of service. Doesn't that mean that Gold members should either get a refund, or get access to at least the Winter Arena?
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On February 14 2012 17:08 YMCApylons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:44 VirgilSC2 wrote:On February 14 2012 16:38 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:24 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:14 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:08 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.). This is incorrect. Check my last post above. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event." The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit. MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case. Even if this is true encouraging people to chargeback is going to do more harm than good most likely. If a large volume of chargebacks occur on a vendor then the bank they are with is levied fines due to being associated with that vendor. The bank then usually passes those directly on to the vendor including in some cases adding a fine per chargeback that occurs afterwards. Basically if people do what you are proposing it is more likely to directly harm MLG than it is to make them change their mind on the pricing. How about you give them time to respond to feedback first? Alright guys, let me make it simple for you: Look at the Logo for the Winter Arena and tell me it isn't part of the Pro Circuit:It is not hard to determine whether or not the Arena is part of the Pro Circuit! http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/I recommend you dispute the charge with your Credit Card company as outlined in an earlier post if you paid for a Gold or Silver membership. Let me use simple words so you can understand. Encouraging chargebacks in large volumes to MLG will only result in them paying fines if successful. Do you honestly think trying to harm MLG financially will get them to reduce prices or give out discounts you believe that they are shorting you? This is not about if the Arena is part of the pro circuit, your idea is just bad. Have to agree with Raelcun here. I'm pretty convinced that what MLG did was, if not fraudulent, extremely close to it. However, processing chargebacks on MLG is not the way to get your voice heard. I'd advise e-mailing their support (much like users, including myself, did after the Silver Renewal) and ask for a refund. That should get the message across to MLG (and hopefully get you your money back) without harming the organization in a huge way. Agreed. At face value this is well-within the boundaries of a legally-disputable claim. The question is if "HD Pro Circuit Streams" was ever more precisely defined. Can anyone with a MLG Gold Membership post up the relevant Terms & Agreements that were probably given to you as were purchasing the Gold Pass? It might have been linked in the "receipt" email you would have gotten. If MLG reserved the right to redefine which streams would be offered under the Gold Membership, than you're screwed, because you bought nothing - you should have read the fine print. But if MLG said that Gold Membership entitles you to HD Pro Circuit Streams, than you can go to court, and ask the court to find that MLG Arena falls under that category. The other approach is to show that the advertisements and promotional materials used for the Gold Membership are false and misleading, when compared with what the terms of the Gold Membership actually are. In either case, you might not win, but class-action lawsuits have been won with much less. Using credit-card chargebacks is probably not a good idea. I'm not clear on how credit-card companies handle this type of dispute, but as you are in a legal grey-area, at best, tread carefully. For a few isolated cases, like here, it is likely that the credit card company would simply eat the charge, and put a little note next to your account. Keep that pitchfork up.
It should also be noted that their website still advertises that Gold Memberships include Live Pro Circuit Stream in HQ
On February 14 2012 17:16 StrykerSC2 wrote:
This comes from the terms of service.
"MLG RESERVES THE RIGHT, AT ANY TIME, TO CHANGE ITS FEES AND BILLING METHODS, INCLUDING THE ADDITION OF SUPPLEMENTAL FEES OR SEPARATE CHARGES FOR CONTENT OR SERVICES PROVIDED BY MLG, EFFECTIVE THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER ONLINE POSTING AND EMAIL NOTIFICATION. If any such change is unacceptable to you, you may terminate your MEMBERSHIP, as provided below. YOUR CONTINUED USE OF THE MEMBERSHIP PROGRAM FOLLOWING THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF A CHANGE TO SUCH FEES AND BILLING METHODS SHALL CONSTITUTE YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF SUCH CHANGE."
If I understand this right, then they are doing this within 30 days of the event, and therefore going against the terms of service. Doesn't that mean that Gold members should either get a refund, or get access to at least the Winter Arena?
As far as I'm aware, and from what I can understand, no.
They're saying they have the right to change whatever they want, whenever they want and you have 30 days to get your money back.
EDIT: However, there is a bit that confuses me. It could be that the changes are effective 30 days after the Online Posting and E-Mail notification, which would in this case, be violating that as the event is only 10 days out.
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On February 14 2012 17:12 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 17:08 YMCApylons wrote:On February 14 2012 16:44 VirgilSC2 wrote:On February 14 2012 16:38 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:24 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:14 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:08 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.). This is incorrect. Check my last post above. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event." The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit. MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case. Even if this is true encouraging people to chargeback is going to do more harm than good most likely. If a large volume of chargebacks occur on a vendor then the bank they are with is levied fines due to being associated with that vendor. The bank then usually passes those directly on to the vendor including in some cases adding a fine per chargeback that occurs afterwards. Basically if people do what you are proposing it is more likely to directly harm MLG than it is to make them change their mind on the pricing. How about you give them time to respond to feedback first? Alright guys, let me make it simple for you: Look at the Logo for the Winter Arena and tell me it isn't part of the Pro Circuit:It is not hard to determine whether or not the Arena is part of the Pro Circuit! http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/I recommend you dispute the charge with your Credit Card company as outlined in an earlier post if you paid for a Gold or Silver membership. Let me use simple words so you can understand. Encouraging chargebacks in large volumes to MLG will only result in them paying fines if successful. Do you honestly think trying to harm MLG financially will get them to reduce prices or give out discounts you believe that they are shorting you? This is not about if the Arena is part of the pro circuit, your idea is just bad. Have to agree with Raelcun here. I'm pretty convinced that what MLG did was, if not fraudulent, extremely close to it. However, processing chargebacks on MLG is not the way to get your voice heard. I'd advise e-mailing their support (much like users, including myself, did after the Silver Renewal) and ask for a refund. That should get the message across to MLG (and hopefully get you your money back) without harming the organization in a huge way. Agreed. At face value this is well-within the boundaries of a legally-disputable claim. The question is if "HD Pro Circuit Streams" was ever more precisely defined. Can anyone with a MLG Gold Membership post up the relevant Terms & Agreements that were probably given to you as were purchasing the Gold Pass? It might have been linked in the "receipt" email you would have gotten. If MLG reserved the right to redefine which streams would be offered under the Gold Membership, than you're screwed, because you bought nothing - you should have read the fine print. But if MLG said that Gold Membership entitles you to HD Pro Circuit Streams, than you can go to court, and ask the court to find that MLG Arena falls under that category. The other approach is to show that the advertisements and promotional materials used for the Gold Membership are false and misleading, when compared with what the terms of the Gold Membership actually are. In either case, you might not win, but class-action lawsuits have been won with much less. Using credit-card chargebacks is probably not a good idea. I'm not clear on how credit-card companies handle this type of dispute, but as you are in a legal grey-area, at best, tread carefully. For a few isolated cases, like here, it is likely that the credit card company would simply eat the charge, and put a little note next to your account. Keep that pitchfork up. $10 says nobody is going to take MLG to court to dispute their gold pass rights.
Ah, but you see, the miracle of the class-action lawsuit is that you only need one lawyer who will, and he doesn't even have to own a gold pass.
It's still unlikely, I agree. But if you review the class-action lawsuits that have actually happened, most of them are unlikely, and many are for fees and amounts below $20. Lots of lawyers desperate for work in the US...
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As mentioned before, I'll pay the 20 if I'm free ALL weekend long (simply not the case for most people) but I definitely feel that the price is too high. 8-10$ would be very reasonable and should see great success.
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Worst thing in the world is that it will probably air for me (eastern european) in the middle of the night. So paying 20$ for something i can only partally see ( I will probaly watch untill i fall into a coma due to no sleep) is kinda shitty. The price is too damn high ( ^_^ ) and I agree that it should be 10$.
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Well they need to make money somehow I guess.
I'll pay the $20 I loved watching MLG last year. I want to help E-sports and SC2 in general grow.
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On February 14 2012 17:16 StrykerSC2 wrote:
This comes from the terms of service.
"MLG RESERVES THE RIGHT, AT ANY TIME, TO CHANGE ITS FEES AND BILLING METHODS, INCLUDING THE ADDITION OF SUPPLEMENTAL FEES OR SEPARATE CHARGES FOR CONTENT OR SERVICES PROVIDED BY MLG, EFFECTIVE THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER ONLINE POSTING AND EMAIL NOTIFICATION. If any such change is unacceptable to you, you may terminate your MEMBERSHIP, as provided below. YOUR CONTINUED USE OF THE MEMBERSHIP PROGRAM FOLLOWING THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF A CHANGE TO SUCH FEES AND BILLING METHODS SHALL CONSTITUTE YOUR ACCEPTANCE OF SUCH CHANGE."
If I understand this right, then they are doing this within 30 days of the event, and therefore going against the terms of service. Doesn't that mean that Gold members should either get a refund, or get access to at least the Winter Arena?
Without reading the rest of the terms of service, where the term "MEMBERSHIP" is probably defined, this means that MLG obligates itself to tell you, 30 days in advance, of any changes in things like fees or content. You can then terminate your membership, and you would have whatever rights are defined in the terms of service for membership termination. If you retain your membership, after the 30 days, you waive your right to dispute these changes to your membership rights.
In TL:DR, "After we give you e-mail notices of changes, you have 30 days to leave. If you don't leave, you are assumed to be okay with it."
There is no indication that you can get your money back. Whether you can or not is found elsewhere in the terms of service.
(FYI, I have not passed the bar in any state. This is not legal advice.)
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Personally I just don't think SC2 is ready to be PPV only. SC2 is one of those few E-sports that has more viewers than active players and I kind of doubt that many of those viewer-only people will be willing to pay the outrageous prize of 20$ for just one weekend of content.
Looking at my own economy as a poor student I don't know if I will be able to pay it. While this is a bold move by MLG trying to push E-sports forward I'd have to say that free events like Dreamhack and IPL still have better quality and overall production than yours which you more or less allready have to pay for if u don't want to see 4 pixels on the screen. A GSL season for 15$ (which is cheaper) gives you SO much more content with a better production and a real competition instead of koreans owning foreigners (which I love to see too, don't get me wrong).
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EDIT: However, there is a bit that confuses me. It could be that the changes are effective 30 days after the Online Posting and E-Mail notification, which would in this case, be violating that as the event is only 10 days out.
Good catch. The MLG defense would be that MLG Arena never fell under content access rights given to MLG gold members, so notification would be unnecessary, as there was no modification of terms of service. Your claim would be that it did.
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Like I posted in the main thread, I'm really struggling to come up with reasons why I should "support" this.
For me it's not so much about if they ask for $5 or $20, at least not right now. After reading this thread and replies in the main thread it feels like it's almost completely about the possibility of supporting something that goes against my own interests. And my interests are not necessarily same as Alex's or MLG's.
Do I for example care most about the huge tournaments themselves like MGL, or even GSL? I think I have to answer no to that.
What I do care about is that more people get into competitive sc2. Why?
Partially I don't know but one reason is that I want foreign players to be competitive with Koreans. And I can't see that happening without a larger talent pool since it's an important area where the foreign scene is not at a disadvantage.
So why do I care about foreign players? Well without foreign players doing well, sc2 as an sport probably wont attract many outside Korea, which I assume would make it end up like BW.
Would that be good for the "scene", or for example EG or even MLG? For me personally, one big reason I don't want it to end up like BW is that I normally can't even watch Korean live streams because of time zone differences. So I don't think I'm even at the point where I think about if the product is worth it, because in my mind it seems like the model is detrimental for what I care about. Which is quite far from having the opinion that I should buy it to "support esports".
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Man Gold members should AT LEAST get some kind of discount.
As for me, not going to pay. There's already so much starcraft content as it is.
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On February 14 2012 16:16 Jonneh wrote:
I'm a gold member, since the day they launched it and I'm also going to pay the $20. But Alex is right, Sundance. Gold members probably should get some increased value system. Some of the anger seen here and on twitter is understandable, but a lot of you are really not justified in what you're saying. Wake up and realise that a business needs to be profitable to work.
"Business needs to be profitable to work" that sounds like a redundant statement to me. A business that is working should be profitable. But step one of having a successful business is having a marketable product, not a fan base. Businesses need to rely on their product's quality, not the good will of the community if they truly want growth and not just survival. If what they are offering is worth it, people will buy it. I think a lot of the outrage is people getting frustrated by MLG and others demanding that people pay for this content when GSL offers an undeniably better deal in every way shape and form for less money. I can completely understand the skeptics. MLG cites a 100000$ expense for the player's travel, there's mistake #1. Obvious mishandling of funds and overhead. If they are spending 100000$ on travel expenses alone then they sure as hell don't want to turn a profit. But what baffles me the most are the people lamenting over the "NA SC2 Scene" as if it even exists. Wake up, the best players are in Korea, the best tournament is in Korea, any NA player decent enough goes to Korea. How is there expected to be a growing SC2 scene in NA when there's hardly any notable professional players? The problem is people would rather spend their money to watch Koreans play over the hometown players because the level of competition is so drastically different. If E-sports truly wants to grow and develop like MLGsundance envisions then there needs to be an influx of funds into growing the scene for the fans. By that I mean more tournaments for the average joe and legitimate leagues for your run of the mill NA player to compete in. SC2 needs exposure. If the numbers are true and the SC2 player base is decreasing over time outside of Korea how is PPV a logical solution?
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Really nice message to the community, thanks for that because there were some things in there, that people needed to hear.
As for me, I understand your point completely but I see 20$ as something terribly overpriced. 8-10$ seems reasonable. I'll go for option B. And if it was another Korean tournament I wouldn't buy it even with that. Because I normally cannot spend my weekends in front of a computer screen (you know, rl? ), some of that money goes to waste. And I have a huge amount of top quality content to watch in the GSL. I don't "need" more.
But will be willing to pay for 8-10$. And I'd be willing to do it because it would be a foreign event. It would be an event that I feel directly needs my support in order to stay alive. It has some of the players I like to watch and cheer for but are below the absolut top level (and I don't have time for searching around small tournaments to find them playing).
Besides from that. The starcraft scene is not developed enough to offer only ppv content. Freemium seems best. We are in dire need of developing and growing. The MLG is a really good time for someone who does not know what SCII is, to have an idea of it's awesomeness. But I cannot possibly convince a friend of mine to have a try at something completely new by paying 20$. It does not allow for spreading the word. There is growth in the viewership. Don't halt it.
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its obvious that MLG purposely overpriced the event at $20, so that when they lower it to $10 people will actually think it's good value, whereas it is STILL overpriced.
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As always, interesting read from the mind of ottersareneat (i mean Alex) .....
Otters are pretty neat.
I won't be paying, I'm not sure I have the time for this event, I like to just watch a few matches, and I am not paying if I am not glued to the screen. Also I feel like there is way too much downtime between games at MLG.
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I'll purchase it for $20 - as I spend that much on food every time I go out for dinner. Also - I get a few friends around to stay the weekend and we watch all the games together on my home theater. I can't complain....
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51481 Posts
This is very interesting! Another reason why i love EG ♥ Such a boss is mr Alex :D
Thanks for the amazing post, always an excellent read, i agree with you 110% and everyone in the community is deffo realing from this pitch, a very bad pitch aswell. GOMTV do this alot, make random tournaments was sick players for people to buy HD pass for, but they never charge outstanding prices like this. Think someone at MLG was pitching a little to high with this.
Thanks again Alex :D EG FIGHTING
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there are so many tourmanets in the year yet there are always kinda the same players.
why would i pay 20$ for one of them when i can see the same players for free two weeks afterwards?
and its not like MLG is something special. its just one of many tournaments.
thats why i am not paying.
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I would have paid $20 to watch.
But I feel cheated because I bought the gold membership to get a years access to HD streams and HD vods. And I feel I should get what I paid for.
So I won't.
(I bought every GSL, GSTL, first seasons of NASL, IPL, and mlg gold ... so I am not opposed to paying in general).
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On February 14 2012 17:32 YMCApylons wrote:Show nested quote +EDIT: However, there is a bit that confuses me. It could be that the changes are effective 30 days after the Online Posting and E-Mail notification, which would in this case, be violating that as the event is only 10 days out. Good catch. The MLG defense would be that MLG Arena never fell under content access rights given to MLG gold members, so notification would be unnecessary, as there was no modification of terms of service. Your claim would be that it did.
Yes, but MLG would lose there, plain and simple.
Gold Membership offered "Access to HQ Pro Circuit Broadcasts"
and MLG's Winter Arena was, and is currently, being marketed as the "Pro Circuit Winter Arena"
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Great post Alex, I love and appreciate the honesty. When am I going to be able to watch Justin, Floe and Ricky compete within the same two hours as incontrol, idra and huk??? I think that is what we need to really grow esports. The live on three guys really got me into the FGC and those guys should be as big at the starcraft guys because I think Justin is one of the most talented progamers in the world. Anyways great post
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PPV only is a terrible idea, even if they are able to make a bit more money, as they are not taking into account the value of a viewer. For example, if both PPV and Freemium netted the same revenue, Freemium would be a far superior choice as Freemium would naturally have far greater viewership, and viewers have value in and of themselves regardless of whether they pay or not right now, as they represent likely future revenue. PPV is short term gain, long term loss.
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I think some tournament organizers think that the community is getting so much for so little but it's not true. Last year only I think I have spend 200$ (if not a lot more) on tournament tickets. It's not my fault that there are so many tournaments and the money spreads so thin.
Trying to take more money from the community is bad. Some tournaments need to die and others to bloom. Sorry to say this but we are oversaturated with good quality sc2 content. Rising the price is a really bad move.
And really MLG, pay per view? Good luck with your 200 viewers. You'd better run 10 ads between games.
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20 is just a buttload of money, I would barely pay that to watch an event live, much less so a live stream.
I think even 10 dollars is a stretch unless it's a really good tournament with the best players/casters, more or less optimal time (I'm European, don't want to sit up to 3AM to watch the games), and vods available afterwards.
5 dollars is something I could see myself pay for what MLG events have been up to now.
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They should just slap the shitty 360p for free stream and drop the price to $10.
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ChibSquad ... Well written as always.
Personally I am Option C ... but also agree with Option B ^_^
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pretty eloquent and well reasoned post.
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Personally, I find the price way to high and will not be paying simply because I'm so used to stuff being free/cheap for a subscription/hd pass when it comes to sc2. Now, I'm not saying I'm a cheapass and that's why, I'm saying I feel that way because that's what feels "normal" for me to be paying. For example, I will gladly drop $60 for a ps3 game without batting an eye, I will gladly drop $14.95 a month for an mmo.. but I say what the fuck at an iphone game that wants more than $5. Why? Because I think iphone game suck or the game isn't good enough? No, I have that reaction because I'm so used to paying $2 or less for games. At least for me, MLG can compare it to other shit like movies all you want but what I pay for one thing has nothing to do with what I will pay for something completely different.
I agree that $10 would have been more appropriate as a price because that feels more in-line with what I'm used to paying for things.
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if this is really a bait-and-switch, and to me it seem like that, i dont understand how anybody can advice goldmembers not to get their money back. i want a flourishing sc2 scene just as much as anybody on this site, but i fell the way mlg is doing it is just wrong.
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A very well reasoned post. I don't actually have a problem with an organization creating a PPV event. If MLG said "Hey, we're going to do this event in 2013 that will be strictly PPV...", I'd have no problem with it. I wouldn't pay $20, but I'd probably pay $10 if it was a really sick lineup. My issue is that I bought a gold pass for $30 based on the promise of a year of access to MLG content, and then, months later MLG announces that one of the events in that year is actually going to cost me an additional $20. That's incredibly disrespectful, and I have e-mailed them to let them know that I'll be cancelling my membership on day 1 of the Winter Arena if the policy isn't changed to allow gold members to see the content they paid for.
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This is an absurd point.
No other industry primarily relies on ticket sales to drive revenue. Advertising deals is where it's at, and will always be where it's at.
Now, I can understand if you are unable to land million dollar contracts, because there aren't a million people that watch SC. But what does that say about the spectator sport? Doomed to merely subsist?
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Yea the $20 price is a pretty high price tag for a tournament like this. $10 sounds fair. And it has nothing to do with "being" cheap or something like that. I won´t pay more for a service than I actually think it is worth.
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I'm not angry about the price. But as a gold pass subscriber I feel MLG dishonestly advertised the "Gold Pass". Selling a 12 month pass that includes access to all MLG footage and then determining some events are excluded is very poor form.
I'm fine with MLG changing their model, but they should honour their existing customers and their existing commitments. You sold Gold Passes that were made out to be an all inclusive content pass. The LEAST you could do is honour that commitment by giving all current Gold Pass subscribers access to this content.
Good luck going back to any kind of subscription model after this. PPV better work out.
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I have to commend you on this post Alex, it's a brilliant insight to the reasons why and possible compromises. I agree with your sentiments and I am glad EG took this stance on the issue. I have trust in Sundance that they will revise the system to fit values people expect better but it is nice to know the reasoning behind trying to shift more money away from outside funds. Thank you for this post.
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I don't know what is going on with the replay packs, but I would only pay $10 for them at most and VODs per MLG weekend.
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I dont think they can justify the price poing given the free competition. We dont know what the free Dr. Pepper Stream will involve. But i think even 10$ for just one weekend were i could be watching Assembly for free is not really reasonable having no evidence of how good it really is.
5$ i wouldnt think about it, even if it was limited to say 450p and ~15$ for HQ. The comparison with visiting Cinema/ordering Pizza is valid in principle but its a new product so its not really convincing.
Also i dont think its clever to start at 20$ for the first event. Convince us with the first event for a very low price then increase it when you have proven its worth it (they plan to do that on the very weekend though so lets hope they blow our minds that we actually want to spend the money =D)
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Thanks for the post! Nice to hear some opinions from the team managers on these things.
I will not purchase a pass for this event. I think it is too expensive and I believe that by acquiring the pass it would send the wrong signals to MLG. I do believe in the free low-quality / ad-driven stream and PPV high-quality no-ad stream approach. This might not be a viable business for MLG, but in that case I think they have to come up with something better than $20 for a week-end PPV model. If I feel like watching some SC2 tournament action on that week-end I’m sure I can find something else to tune in to.
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Do not agree with mass commercialization. Keep it free, make money off the ads... we all know they reap in good money from sponsors!
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Agree with Alex. PPV is a good thing, but the price point is too high for this product.
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Agreed, MLG needs to do what they need to do, and I would say it is probably better to start out with the more expensive PPV first and then lower the price rather than raise it so people who previously bought it can say "Hey, that was totally worth $20, and the next one is only $10? Easy buy." or "Hey that maybe wasn't quite worth $20 but for $10, definitely doable." But it seems like this has to be the worst time imaginable to do it with Assembly the same weekend for free.
Also +1 to MLG for free VODs a week later.
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An eSports business attempts to make a big step forward to improve their business model and they get crucified by the community they are trying to provide better entertainment to.
I would be happier if it were $10, but I will still be paying the $20. MLG has given me some of the most enthralling and emotional spectating of Starcraft 2 ever. I hope they make some changes to appeal to the widest audience and they keep growing, they deserve it.
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Good to hear your opinion. I like it. But I won't be buying anything new from MLG till I see worth for my gold subscription.
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What the hell is Sundance thinking?
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On February 14 2012 18:29 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Do not agree with mass commercialization. Keep it free, make money off the ads... we all know they reap in good money from sponsors!
The general community has 0 idea on how much money is sponsored on e-sports.. And I tell you now, the amount the community believes is incorrect.. by far.
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How am I supposed to get my friends into watching MLG if they are required to pay for it in advance? I'm not your bloody salesman MLG, I just wont bother.
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Yep $10 i would not hesitate to pay but $20 thats alot man
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On February 14 2012 18:55 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 18:29 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Do not agree with mass commercialization. Keep it free, make money off the ads... we all know they reap in good money from sponsors! The general community has 0 idea on how much money is sponsored on e-sports.. And I tell you now, the amount the community believes is incorrect.. by far.
Yeah don't fill us in on the numbers though. Best to keep us in the dark and we'll just take youre word for it
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On February 14 2012 18:55 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 18:29 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Do not agree with mass commercialization. Keep it free, make money off the ads... we all know they reap in good money from sponsors! The general community has 0 idea on how much money is sponsored on e-sports.. And I tell you now, the amount the community believes is incorrect.. by far.
Then maybe you want to tell us?
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I spent about $150 just to watch various events last year and about $250 total so far, ads not considered.
If that's not enough then there are obviously just not enough people into this hobby to sustain all these events and that's that. Overpriced PPV is not going to change that, quite the contrary actually. It will lock out new people from getting interested.
Blame the GSL for sucking the market dry if you must but being more expensive is not going to help. I find all this moral soliciting quite appalling honestly considering how much I am already spending.
Netflix is $8 a month ffs.
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I would like to see a business model where you can actually choose which services you actually you want to take. I, like many others I think, am only interested in watching the starcraft 2 stream. I actually dont care about any other form of Esports in the sense that I dont watch it. So why not make a payment option that you can choose to watch the Starcraft 2 streams only? Is this difficult to realise? I hardly think so. Another thing for me is the quality of play that I can expect, the casting and how the downtime is filled(not with repititive music). I bought a GSL and GSTL annual pass cause I think its the best Starcraft 2 in the world hands down and the casting is extremely good, will MLG have the same quality? Its hard to imagine plus the price is 20$ for a WEEKEND of Starcraft 2. I feel like I am getting much more value for my money with the GSL and other tournaments.
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Poll from this thread
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: How much would you pay for MLG PPV?I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less. (959) 39% I'd pay $10, but not $20. (945) 38% I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10. (205) 8% I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge. (169) 7% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10. (111) 5% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20. (67) 3% 2456 total votes Your vote: How much would you pay for MLG PPV? (Vote): I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10.
(Vote): I'd pay $10, but not $20.
(Vote): I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge.
Poll from the PPV announcement thread
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members?No (1520) 74% Yes (539) 26% 2059 total votes Your vote: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Is this another one of those "results disagree" bugs ? Or do TL forumers just agree with whatever was said in the OP...
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It is so refreshing to see a cool-headed, clearly expressed response to this issue...and on the Internet, of all places!
Thank you, Alex, for once again bringing some rational argumentation to the table.
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I couldn't care less if they decided they wanted to get paid.
But I care that they marketed and sold gold membership which doesn't give what they promised.
Misleading and lying is not good marketing or business practice - and I paid for access to MLG HQ streams with that gold membership. And it expires later this year. If it was intended for the season, then it should have expired december 31st.
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I really hope MLG tanks this years. I loved a lot of their events up to this point but if they are succsesful with this whats next? PPV for all events? Dont act like its out of question either because it most definantly isn't
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On February 14 2012 15:07 ottersareneat wrote:
We’re at (and when I say “we,” I mean, teams, tournaments, content providers, everyone) an incredibly crucial moment in the lifespan of this industry. We’re at a point at which we, as an industry, need to become less reliant on third-party, outsider revenue (like corporate sponsors), and increase the percentage of our revenue that’s generated within the eSports ecosystem (direct-to-consumer revenue like subscriptions and merchandise).
The reason for this is that it’s actually still way too hard for teams and tournaments (including those you guys view as the most prestigious and the richest in all of eSports) to make things work financially. Trying to remain viable as a business based on sponsorships and non-industry revenue alone is an unbelievably dangerous path to walk, and it’s just not sustainable in the long term. And I say this as the mind behind what is commonly viewed as the richest pro team in the industry right now.
eSports companies, whether you’re talking about EG, or MLG, need to increase their direct-to-consumer revenue in order to survive long-term. For EG, that means selling more merchandise in our store, and offering a monthly EG subscription package for our fans (which you’ll see later this year, with the release of our new website). For MLG, that means - very similarly - selling more merchandise in their store, and, you guessed it, offering more subscription-based stuff (such as the Winter Arena weekend pass).
There's something I don't quite get (actually at this point don't agree upon, but maybe just lack the insight), so I will just ask and hope for an answer.
Q: Why does the Industry need to become less reliant on third-party, outsider revenue (like corporate sponsors)?
The way I see it, any sport utterly depends on those. Even if you take a soccer club with 80000 seats in their stadium and 20$ (dollar just chosen as example currency for sake of the argument and calculation purposes) per ticket, that's 1,6 Million $ per home game (which is 50% of games, reducing the income to 800k per game). This is an optimistic approach, for in this scenario every game is sold out and every seat is worth 20$. For a stadium with 80k seats however you have to be a top notch team, so player expenses far exceed those 800k per game. This is just the players, adding travel, Hotels, coaches, cooks and whatnot, soccer could never survive without MASSIVE sponsoring.
As I perceive the situation (again, correct me in case I am terribly wrong) there are two ways to handle the situation:
A) Take money for events, This will limit your viewers in any scenario, because even if everybody watching E-Sports right now would agree to pay the 10$ you deem appropriate, new people would not. Yes the events would probably grow, while price pools would increase and income for teams would increase. As this happened I imagine salaries for players would also skyrocket. Meaning expenses would rise as well while travel costs would not be a problem anymore, for those, of yourse, would stay the same. Making it possible for Players to attend more events around the world.
The danger I see in this is simply, that over time, viewers will stop watching (peoples interests change) while not many new people come to watch.
And if you argue that "well player streams and some events are still free", then events charging money would benefit from smaller events which build the community paying events can live of. This might be a realistic, but in no way fair, scenario.
B) Make everything free of charge and live off of sponsoring. I have no idea how hard it is to get sponsoring these days, but I imagine it's not easy. And this is actually a good thing, for it might facilitate competition among events. Maybe do some fun 4v4 pro games, play against viewers etc to keep people entertained. Think of new ways to sell the product, rather then just charge money for the same.
This scenario actually has the heavy possibility of increasing the number of total E-Sport viewers, as everybody likes fun stuff, it's fun right? This would make the scene as a total grow, increasing the number of regular viewers and thus making it interesting for advertisement.
I liked for example what you did with the "gracken" theme (although due to his latest showmatch I'hm rather inclined to it). I tink generating new ideas and fun stuff, interactive and not, will raise viewers and therefore increase sponsoring.
Yes, increasing the direct-to-consumer revenue is great, and having your players live in a team house should make specials kind of easy. I kind of miss events of that kind, where teams just set up a stream and do stuff (for instance "win a mouse from our sponsor for showing us some amazing strat/ beat our team in 4v4.. etc etc).
While I do want E-Sports to grow and am willing to buy my gaming gear exklusively from the sponsors of my favourite team /LAN I enjoyed and such, I am not willing to pay for a stream, for I feel it limits the amount of people watching, reduces the amount of new /entertaining ideas events bring to get more viewers, and ultimatively decreases the amount of people watching E-Sports, thus hurting it. If there is one thing I have gathered from most internet phenomena like Athene and such, it's that what it all comes down to is the amount of people watching. I feel any PPV model is a fast way to get more money into one's own pocket while decreasing the money going into the sport. This, of course, is a business model many businesses use, yes it ultimatively hurts everybody, doesn't it?
Vanimar (concerned Starcraft fan)
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On February 14 2012 15:46 Lavalamp799 wrote:
E) Just watch Assembly for free
My choice as well. Assembly will provide more than enough high level Starcraft for one weekend.
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On February 14 2012 19:07 Geiko wrote:Poll from this thread+ Show Spoiler +Poll: How much would you pay for MLG PPV?I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less. (959) 39% I'd pay $10, but not $20. (945) 38% I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10. (205) 8% I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge. (169) 7% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10. (111) 5% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20. (67) 3% 2456 total votes Your vote: How much would you pay for MLG PPV? (Vote): I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10.
(Vote): I'd pay $10, but not $20.
(Vote): I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge.
Poll: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members?No (1520) 74% Yes (539) 26% 2059 total votes Your vote: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Is this another one of those "results disagree" bugs ? Or do TL forumers just agree with whatever was said in the OP...
Er, those polls agree as far as I can tell. The second poll is for MLG gold members
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On February 14 2012 18:26 d9mmdi wrote:
Also i dont think its clever to start at 20$ for the first event. Convince us with the first event for a very low price then increase it when you have proven its worth it (they plan to do that on the very weekend though so lets hope they blow our minds that we actually want to spend the money =D)
I have to agree with this point. It devalues the brand they are trying to establish if they transition from $20 to $10.
As for the choices, I would pick B. Simply put, when the price for the winter arena is almost 28.5% of a yearly GSL light ticket, I would find more value leaning towards a GSL ticket.
However, I'm willing to see how it works out when they "test run" it.
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On February 14 2012 19:16 zeMoose wrote:My choice as well. Assembly will provide more than enough high level Starcraft for one weekend.
Same for me. Plus Assembly should be at a more reasonable time for Europeans. I would be willing to buy MLG tickets in the future, but there's no way I'm gonna spend more than 10$ for only one weekend. 10$ would be a bit expensive but still okay imo and if I'm gonna watch it together with a friend or something it's fine.
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Great post! $10 maybe....but $20 really?!? Will not do that for sure.
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These comments about creating a barrier to entry for newcomers to the SC2 e-sports scene are important.
I really started following pro SC2 because of MLG Anaheim. It was a free-to-watch event that was well promoted around the sort of entry level content I was consuming at the time, like day[9] and husky; it was free; it was very accessible to an American audience (timezone, foreign players); and it had an air of importance to me at the time. I recall being very discouraged at "recommend a VOD" threads because of how much pay-only GSL content they contained. It felt very prohibitive. Only after months of MLGs did I really dig deeper into the scene. I used to be bored from a lack of content inbetween MLGs... I had no idea that 6 months down the line I'd literally have so much content available to me that I just ignore whole tournaments, like on a weekly basis.
A pricing structure like this is actively discouraging new viewers and members of the e-sport scene.
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On February 14 2012 19:07 Geiko wrote:Poll from this thread+ Show Spoiler +Poll: How much would you pay for MLG PPV?I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less. (959) 39% I'd pay $10, but not $20. (945) 38% I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10. (205) 8% I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge. (169) 7% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10. (111) 5% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20. (67) 3% 2456 total votes Your vote: How much would you pay for MLG PPV? (Vote): I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10.
(Vote): I'd pay $10, but not $20.
(Vote): I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge.
Poll: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members?No (1520) 74% Yes (539) 26% 2059 total votes Your vote: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Is this another one of those "results disagree" bugs ? Or do TL forumers just agree with whatever was said in the OP... They look close enough to me. Plus polls like these are probably extremely effected by "what I think is in my best interest" votes which makes me think the content of the threads should make a pretty big difference.
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I feel so cheated right now. What is the point of buying Gold package if you have to again pay for specific events...
20 $ for the week end is insane, I love in general the content produced at MLG, but this time I will watch something else. PPV only is really stupid, it isn't what's make people getting to know more of foreign esports tournaments...
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On February 14 2012 18:58 SweetNJoshSauce wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 18:55 FXOpen wrote:On February 14 2012 18:29 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Do not agree with mass commercialization. Keep it free, make money off the ads... we all know they reap in good money from sponsors! The general community has 0 idea on how much money is sponsored on e-sports.. And I tell you now, the amount the community believes is incorrect.. by far. Yeah don't fill us in on the numbers though. Best to keep us in the dark and we'll just take youre word for it
He doesnt have to. its his word against pewpew's. Which one is more likely to be credible? make a judgement call.
Is it annoying that he leaves us in the dark? Yeah. But from his perspective, is it understandable that he didn't cite numbers? Yeah.
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On February 14 2012 19:26 Akta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 19:07 Geiko wrote:Poll from this thread+ Show Spoiler +Poll: How much would you pay for MLG PPV?I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less. (959) 39% I'd pay $10, but not $20. (945) 38% I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10. (205) 8% I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge. (169) 7% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10. (111) 5% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20. (67) 3% 2456 total votes Your vote: How much would you pay for MLG PPV? (Vote): I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10.
(Vote): I'd pay $10, but not $20.
(Vote): I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge.
Poll: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members?No (1520) 74% Yes (539) 26% 2059 total votes Your vote: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Is this another one of those "results disagree" bugs ? Or do TL forumers just agree with whatever was said in the OP... They look close enough to me. Plus polls like these are probably extremely effected by "what I think is in my best interest" votes which makes me think the content of the threads should make a pretty big difference.
First poll shows that more than 50% of people would buy it for 10$ whereas second poll shows 66% of people wouldn't buy it for 10$. How is that close enough ?
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On February 14 2012 19:40 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 19:26 Akta wrote:On February 14 2012 19:07 Geiko wrote:Poll from this thread+ Show Spoiler +Poll: How much would you pay for MLG PPV?I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less. (959) 39% I'd pay $10, but not $20. (945) 38% I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10. (205) 8% I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge. (169) 7% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10. (111) 5% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20. (67) 3% 2456 total votes Your vote: How much would you pay for MLG PPV? (Vote): I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10.
(Vote): I'd pay $10, but not $20.
(Vote): I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge.
Poll: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members?No (1520) 74% Yes (539) 26% 2059 total votes Your vote: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Is this another one of those "results disagree" bugs ? Or do TL forumers just agree with whatever was said in the OP... They look close enough to me. Plus polls like these are probably extremely effected by "what I think is in my best interest" votes which makes me think the content of the threads should make a pretty big difference. First poll shows that more than 50% of people would buy it for 10$ whereas second poll shows 66% of people wouldn't buy it for 10$. How is that close enough ?
Pay closer attention, the first one is about the price for everyone pretty much whilst the second poll is about people who purchased the gold pass and feel ripped off because it's not included.
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On February 14 2012 19:40 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 19:26 Akta wrote:On February 14 2012 19:07 Geiko wrote:Poll from this thread+ Show Spoiler +Poll: How much would you pay for MLG PPV?I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less. (959) 39% I'd pay $10, but not $20. (945) 38% I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10. (205) 8% I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge. (169) 7% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10. (111) 5% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20. (67) 3% 2456 total votes Your vote: How much would you pay for MLG PPV? (Vote): I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10.
(Vote): I'd pay $10, but not $20.
(Vote): I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge.
Poll: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members?No (1520) 74% Yes (539) 26% 2059 total votes Your vote: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Is this another one of those "results disagree" bugs ? Or do TL forumers just agree with whatever was said in the OP... They look close enough to me. Plus polls like these are probably extremely effected by "what I think is in my best interest" votes which makes me think the content of the threads should make a pretty big difference. First poll shows that more than 50% of people would buy it for 10$ whereas second poll shows 66% of people wouldn't buy it for 10$. How is that close enough ?
You didn't read the OP? In the first poll, answer B means "I won't pay 20$ for this event, but I would have with a lower price" (where did you see 10$? ... in the 2nd poll, obviously), so people who would pay less than 10$ answered B in first poll but didn't answer 10$ on the other one...
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On February 14 2012 18:45 Tristran wrote:
An eSports business attempts to make a big step forward to improve their business model and they get crucified by the community they are trying to provide better entertainment to.
I would be happier if it were $10, but I will still be paying the $20. MLG has given me some of the most enthralling and emotional spectating of Starcraft 2 ever. I hope they make some changes to appeal to the widest audience and they keep growing, they deserve it.
How is charging 20$ for PPV moving esports foward?
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I find this original post quite manipulative in how it attempts to astroturf support for $10 as an acceptable price.
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On February 14 2012 19:10 Vanimar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 15:07 ottersareneat wrote:
We’re at (and when I say “we,” I mean, teams, tournaments, content providers, everyone) an incredibly crucial moment in the lifespan of this industry. We’re at a point at which we, as an industry, need to become less reliant on third-party, outsider revenue (like corporate sponsors), and increase the percentage of our revenue that’s generated within the eSports ecosystem (direct-to-consumer revenue like subscriptions and merchandise).
The reason for this is that it’s actually still way too hard for teams and tournaments (including those you guys view as the most prestigious and the richest in all of eSports) to make things work financially. Trying to remain viable as a business based on sponsorships and non-industry revenue alone is an unbelievably dangerous path to walk, and it’s just not sustainable in the long term. And I say this as the mind behind what is commonly viewed as the richest pro team in the industry right now.
eSports companies, whether you’re talking about EG, or MLG, need to increase their direct-to-consumer revenue in order to survive long-term. For EG, that means selling more merchandise in our store, and offering a monthly EG subscription package for our fans (which you’ll see later this year, with the release of our new website). For MLG, that means - very similarly - selling more merchandise in their store, and, you guessed it, offering more subscription-based stuff (such as the Winter Arena weekend pass).
There's something I don't quite get (actually at this point don't agree upon, but maybe just lack the insight), so I will just ask and hope for an answer. Q: Why does the Industry need to become less reliant on third-party, outsider revenue (like corporate sponsors)? The way I see it, any sport utterly depends on those. Even if you take a soccer club with 80000 seats in their stadium and 20$ (dollar just chosen as example currency for sake of the argument and calculation purposes) per ticket, that's 1,6 Million $ per home game (which is 50% of games, reducing the income to 800k per game). This is an optimistic approach, for in this scenario every game is sold out and every seat is worth 20$. For a stadium with 80k seats however you have to be a top notch team, so player expenses far exceed those 800k per game. This is just the players, adding travel, Hotels, coaches, cooks and whatnot, soccer could never survive without MASSIVE sponsoring. As I perceive the situation (again, correct me in case I am terribly wrong) there are two ways to handle the situation: A) Take money for events, This will limit your viewers in any scenario, because even if everybody watching E-Sports right now would agree to pay the 10$ you deem appropriate, new people would not. Yes the events would probably grow, while price pools would increase and income for teams would increase. As this happened I imagine salaries for players would also skyrocket. Meaning expenses would rise as well while travel costs would not be a problem anymore, for those, of yourse, would stay the same. Making it possible for Players to attend more events around the world. The danger I see in this is simply, that over time, viewers will stop watching (peoples interests change) while not many new people come to watch. And if you argue that "well player streams and some events are still free", then events charging money would benefit from smaller events which build the community paying events can live of. This might be a realistic, but in no way fair, scenario. B) Make everything free of charge and live off of sponsoring. I have no idea how hard it is to get sponsoring these days, but I imagine it's not easy. And this is actually a good thing, for it might facilitate competition among events. Maybe do some fun 4v4 pro games, play against viewers etc to keep people entertained. Think of new ways to sell the product, rather then just charge money for the same. This scenario actually has the heavy possibility of increasing the number of total E-Sport viewers, as everybody likes fun stuff, it's fun right? This would make the scene as a total grow, increasing the number of regular viewers and thus making it interesting for advertisement. I liked for example what you did with the "gracken" theme (although due to his latest showmatch I'hm rather inclined to it). I tink generating new ideas and fun stuff, interactive and not, will raise viewers and therefore increase sponsoring. Yes, increasing the direct-to-consumer revenue is great, and having your players live in a team house should make specials kind of easy. I kind of miss events of that kind, where teams just set up a stream and do stuff (for instance "win a mouse from our sponsor for showing us some amazing strat/ beat our team in 4v4.. etc etc). While I do want E-Sports to grow and am willing to buy my gaming gear exklusively from the sponsors of my favourite team /LAN I enjoyed and such, I am not willing to pay for a stream, for I feel it limits the amount of people watching, reduces the amount of new /entertaining ideas events bring to get more viewers, and ultimatively decreases the amount of people watching E-Sports, thus hurting it. If there is one thing I have gathered from most internet phenomena like Athene and such, it's that what it all comes down to is the amount of people watching. I feel any PPV model is a fast way to get more money into one's own pocket while decreasing the money going into the sport. This, of course, is a business model many businesses use, yes it ultimatively hurts everybody, doesn't it? Vanimar (concerned Starcraft fan)
i'm tired of "community leaders" elevating themselves to make these divine statements above the noise. if the current esports model is unsustainable, then it's because it has been made so by a rediculous arms race based on naive venture capital - $200k salaries for players who can't even stay in code a or play a showmatch without rage 6-pooling half the games included.
MLG has been losing money for a decade, it's almost become renound for how to run a business for a decade without making a single cent of profit. SC2 was their great white hope, specifically an american GSL. the problem was the NA scene never developed like they hoped, and attempting a regular circuit which involves flying almost your entire roster from all corners of the world is totally unsustainable at this point in SC2.
so MLG can't make money. they certainly can't make enough money to fund a business model which involves high rise NYC offices and a centre of operations in the most expensive location in america.
MLG is like the guy who buys a $2k suit to look the part in despite barely having enough money for stationary. comparitively, GSL runs a tight ship - modest, professional and effective. i feel like every penny that i give to them is invested exactly where it's needed. compare this to the opulent veneer that MLG are trying to present, that $20 will probably pay about 1/100th of the monthly rent of JP's office alone.
the use of "pitchforks" in this case represents the term's transition to a tool for those who wish belittle the community's ire. i'm usually a contrarian but i feel the community is dead on this time, and nobody in any place of tutting authority is providing any data to convince me otherwise - so quit with the all knowing "oh well, if you want esports to die..." horseshit.
people have to ask themselves what they want esports to be, an insular inustry based on gouging a small base to facilitate opulent budgets and big living of those providing it, or a modest reflection of the community - built on careful budgets which don't send them wildly into a deficit.
one has the potential to grow budgets, the other has the potential to grow the community.
which esports do you want?
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I'll be surprised if this doesn't drop to $10. Why? Because they've wanted $10 all along. This seems like a classic negotiating tactic and $20 is just too absurd to be believable. It will even make Sundance and MLG look good when they "listen" to the fans.
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the use of "pitchforks" in this case represents the term's transition to a tool for those who wish belittle the ire the community's ire.
I am glad you said this.
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On February 14 2012 19:40 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 19:26 Akta wrote:On February 14 2012 19:07 Geiko wrote:Poll from this thread+ Show Spoiler +Poll: How much would you pay for MLG PPV?I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less. (959) 39% I'd pay $10, but not $20. (945) 38% I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10. (205) 8% I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge. (169) 7% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10. (111) 5% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20. (67) 3% 2456 total votes Your vote: How much would you pay for MLG PPV? (Vote): I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10.
(Vote): I'd pay $10, but not $20.
(Vote): I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge.
Poll: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members?No (1520) 74% Yes (539) 26% 2059 total votes Your vote: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Is this another one of those "results disagree" bugs ? Or do TL forumers just agree with whatever was said in the OP... They look close enough to me. Plus polls like these are probably extremely effected by "what I think is in my best interest" votes which makes me think the content of the threads should make a pretty big difference. First poll shows that more than 50% of people would buy it for 10$ whereas second poll shows 66% of people wouldn't buy it for 10$. How is that close enough ?
Edit: Alright I'm retarded apparantly I dunno wtf is going on
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On February 14 2012 19:58 eloist wrote:Show nested quote +the use of "pitchforks" in this case represents the term's transition to a tool for those who wish belittle the ire the community's ire. I am glad you said this.
i'd be more glad if i didn't fuck that line up.
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This PPV could be make or break for MLG and i would hate to see other leagues watching this, then make the desicion to do it as well. The big issue is as a someone not in the US timezone this is not worth the money to pay and watch specialy on a sunday when i would be staying up to 3-4am with work in the morning.
Most pay per view events in the UK are yearly things like e.g. Boxing costing £14.99, but This Arena looks like its going to be 4-6 different events ?. Not realy looked but at $20 each thats $80-$120 per person a year, on top of thier gold subscription you are going to be pricing out the key demographic the 18-30 market specialy if thier on a students budgets.
I was never the best with networking and dynamtic ips, but say you pay for it and your router autoupdates its firmware knocking your connection off and changing the IP address what happens then ? Will you lose out or will you still beable to watch it ?
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MLG needs to grandfather in all Gold membership since a certain date to include this PPV at least.
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Another disgruntled Gold member voting for Option C.
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On February 14 2012 20:06 Vagabond wrote:
I was never the best with networking and dynamtic ips, but say you pay for it and your router autoupdates its firmware knocking your connection off and changing the IP address what happens then ? Will you lose out or will you still beable to watch it ?
Depending on their distribution platform, it will most likely be tied to your MLG or twitch account or both. So no worries
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On February 14 2012 19:52 eloist wrote:
I find this original post quite manipulative in how it attempts to astroturf support for $10 as an acceptable price.
I completely agree.
Another issue to consider with PPV-only is the negative effects a viewership drop when it comes to finding sponsorship revenues for the next event.
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On February 14 2012 19:52 eloist wrote:
I find this original post quite manipulative in how it attempts to astroturf support for $10 as an acceptable price.
i will be extremely suspicious if there is a sudden $10 price drop at the last minute.
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This is just one of the many reasons why I'm a fan of team EG.
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whats the benefit of having mlg gold if you don't get free access to what otherwise would've been payed for content.
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Totally agreed with EG's stance on this. I don't get the $20 ticket price for MLG, I think that $10 is pretty much the acceptable limit for a weekend tourney for most. I have been subscribing to most weekend tournament last year (all MLGs, IPL3, Homestory, etc) and to most seasons of the GSL.
I however will be skipping MLG until they lower it to $10. I really hope that they do end up doing so, as it was definitely one of the tourneys that I never even considered not paying for...
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On February 14 2012 19:52 pepsimaxibon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 19:10 Vanimar wrote:On February 14 2012 15:07 ottersareneat wrote:
We’re at (and when I say “we,” I mean, teams, tournaments, content providers, everyone) an incredibly crucial moment in the lifespan of this industry. We’re at a point at which we, as an industry, need to become less reliant on third-party, outsider revenue (like corporate sponsors), and increase the percentage of our revenue that’s generated within the eSports ecosystem (direct-to-consumer revenue like subscriptions and merchandise).
The reason for this is that it’s actually still way too hard for teams and tournaments (including those you guys view as the most prestigious and the richest in all of eSports) to make things work financially. Trying to remain viable as a business based on sponsorships and non-industry revenue alone is an unbelievably dangerous path to walk, and it’s just not sustainable in the long term. And I say this as the mind behind what is commonly viewed as the richest pro team in the industry right now.
eSports companies, whether you’re talking about EG, or MLG, need to increase their direct-to-consumer revenue in order to survive long-term. For EG, that means selling more merchandise in our store, and offering a monthly EG subscription package for our fans (which you’ll see later this year, with the release of our new website). For MLG, that means - very similarly - selling more merchandise in their store, and, you guessed it, offering more subscription-based stuff (such as the Winter Arena weekend pass).
There's something I don't quite get (actually at this point don't agree upon, but maybe just lack the insight), so I will just ask and hope for an answer. Q: Why does the Industry need to become less reliant on third-party, outsider revenue (like corporate sponsors)? The way I see it, any sport utterly depends on those. Even if you take a soccer club with 80000 seats in their stadium and 20$ (dollar just chosen as example currency for sake of the argument and calculation purposes) per ticket, that's 1,6 Million $ per home game (which is 50% of games, reducing the income to 800k per game). This is an optimistic approach, for in this scenario every game is sold out and every seat is worth 20$. For a stadium with 80k seats however you have to be a top notch team, so player expenses far exceed those 800k per game. This is just the players, adding travel, Hotels, coaches, cooks and whatnot, soccer could never survive without MASSIVE sponsoring. As I perceive the situation (again, correct me in case I am terribly wrong) there are two ways to handle the situation: A) Take money for events, This will limit your viewers in any scenario, because even if everybody watching E-Sports right now would agree to pay the 10$ you deem appropriate, new people would not. Yes the events would probably grow, while price pools would increase and income for teams would increase. As this happened I imagine salaries for players would also skyrocket. Meaning expenses would rise as well while travel costs would not be a problem anymore, for those, of yourse, would stay the same. Making it possible for Players to attend more events around the world. The danger I see in this is simply, that over time, viewers will stop watching (peoples interests change) while not many new people come to watch. And if you argue that "well player streams and some events are still free", then events charging money would benefit from smaller events which build the community paying events can live of. This might be a realistic, but in no way fair, scenario. B) Make everything free of charge and live off of sponsoring. I have no idea how hard it is to get sponsoring these days, but I imagine it's not easy. And this is actually a good thing, for it might facilitate competition among events. Maybe do some fun 4v4 pro games, play against viewers etc to keep people entertained. Think of new ways to sell the product, rather then just charge money for the same. This scenario actually has the heavy possibility of increasing the number of total E-Sport viewers, as everybody likes fun stuff, it's fun right? This would make the scene as a total grow, increasing the number of regular viewers and thus making it interesting for advertisement. I liked for example what you did with the "gracken" theme (although due to his latest showmatch I'hm rather inclined to it). I tink generating new ideas and fun stuff, interactive and not, will raise viewers and therefore increase sponsoring. Yes, increasing the direct-to-consumer revenue is great, and having your players live in a team house should make specials kind of easy. I kind of miss events of that kind, where teams just set up a stream and do stuff (for instance "win a mouse from our sponsor for showing us some amazing strat/ beat our team in 4v4.. etc etc). While I do want E-Sports to grow and am willing to buy my gaming gear exklusively from the sponsors of my favourite team /LAN I enjoyed and such, I am not willing to pay for a stream, for I feel it limits the amount of people watching, reduces the amount of new /entertaining ideas events bring to get more viewers, and ultimatively decreases the amount of people watching E-Sports, thus hurting it. If there is one thing I have gathered from most internet phenomena like Athene and such, it's that what it all comes down to is the amount of people watching. I feel any PPV model is a fast way to get more money into one's own pocket while decreasing the money going into the sport. This, of course, is a business model many businesses use, yes it ultimatively hurts everybody, doesn't it? Vanimar (concerned Starcraft fan) i'm tired of "community leaders" elevating themselves to make these divine statements above the noise. if the current esports model is unsustainable, then it's because it has been made so by a rediculous arms race based on naive venture capital - $200k salaries for players who can't even stay in code a or play a showmatch without rage 6-pooling half the games included. MLG has been losing money for a decade, it's almost become renound for how to run a business for a decade without making a single cent of profit. SC2 was their great white hope, specifically an american GSL. the problem was the NA scene never developed like they hoped, and attempting a regular circuit which involves flying almost your entire roster from all corners of the world is totally unsustainable at this point in SC2. so MLG can't make money. they certainly can't make enough money to fund a business model which involves high rise NYC offices and a centre of operations in the most expensive location in america. MLG is like the guy who buys a $2k suit to look the part in despite barely having enough money for stationary. comparitively, GSL runs a tight ship - modest, professional and effective. i feel like every penny that i give to them is invested exactly where it's needed. compare this to the opulent veneer that MLG are trying to present, that $20 will probably pay about 1/100th of the monthly rent of JP's office alone. the use of "pitchforks" in this case represents the term's transition to a tool for those who wish belittle the community's ire. i'm usually a contrarian but i feel the community is dead on this time, and nobody in any place of tutting authority is providing any data to convince me otherwise - so quit with the all knowing "oh well, if you want esports to die..." horseshit. people have to ask themselves what they want esports to be, an insular inustry based on gouging a small base to facilitate opulent budgets and big living of those providing it, or a modest reflection of the community - built on careful budgets which don't send them wildly into a deficit. one has the potential to grow budgets, the other has the potential to grow the community. which esports do you want?
Interesting post.
Also I wonder about some other costs Sundance/MLG has to make.
1) Why does MLG have to pay for all the travel costs, including hotels? Why not the teams? Or the players? How much money are players actually making? People like ThorZain, Mana, Morrow and Dimaga. We know IdrA and HuK are making an absurd amount of money. How about MC, Nada and Puma? Stephano?
2) Can MLG cut in their expenses? 20$ sounds so desperate. They already killed all their Esport shows.
3) How did MLG lose money previous year? 5000$ for first place. 240000 people watching the stream. Adds after every game. Did they gave away too many free silver passes with stupid advertising like hot pockets? Maybe they should have let those 240000 people pay a small amount last year.
I would really to love some real figures, asking for 20$ to support e sports is just silly.
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Your use of the term pitchfork makes me want to use one on you. So condescending.
Other than that I appreciate the write up.
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I will be taking option B, and I'm not just saying I would pay $10, I actually would.
It's not an emotional argument, I actually don't value the content as high as $20.
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I will be watching Assembly happily. The last thing esports needs is EVERY event charging 20$USD for ANYONE to watch ANY event.
Last year, Starcraft alone caused MLG to become bigger than it had been since its creation. If MLG is floundering financially, it isn't because of Starcraft. We watch the shows, we see the adds, we support our teams, players, and brands.
However, this 20$USD does not support Starcraft. This is Sundance/MLG milking money from the community that THEY need. And if they can't produce content at a price that our community is happy with, then I'm sure NASL/IEM/Dreamhack will.
MLG needs Starcraft.
Starcraft doesn't really need MLG.
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As a student who does not have a lot of disposable income. I won't be buying this pass for 20 dollar.
I wil list the following reasons below:
1. 20 Dollars is too much. I don't think PPV model works for Starcraft events like it does for the UFC. You pay for a PPV for the UFC because you can see those guys 1-3 times a year. My favourite players stream themselves or have a tournament every other week to watch them.
2. I am a Gold Member and I think I deserve a discount. It doesn't matter how much it is, just the felling that we get appreciated as Gold Members is enough.
3. Assembly is on the same time, announced their stuff earlier than MLG and will support that instead.
4. Events like the Homestory Cup charge 5 Euro's for 4 days of content (I would gladly pay 10 Euro's for that). You charge me 20 Dollars (15 Euro's) for only 2 days of content...
5. I don't like you qualification process... It is a lot better than it used to be, but only invite people to qualify into your tournament is just bad... Everyone should have a chance.
6. Just to let you know again... The majority of your "Target Market" is in school and does not have the money to pay for this. When I can get 4 IEM events or 3 months of GSL for the same price? I know what I will be paying for...
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Not taking on the freemium approach is going to hurt them very hard this time around, especially since there is another awesome tournament on at the same time, for free.
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I'm not going to spend $20 on an event like this.
I might be willing to spend $10 depending on the scheduling/players/casters and if there wasn't a free event running on the same weekend.
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This blog post seems to completely ignore or whitewash over the horrible business decisions which have forced the 20$ price hike,
#1 Offline event in the one of the most expensive cities on the planet,
#2 Paying for the entirity of flight and accomodations costs in one of the most expensive cities on the planet,
#3 Not allowing offline spectators for this apparently prestigious tournament (missing out on basically "free" money there),
#4 Coddling Korean teams who due to the failure of the Korean SC2 scene can't fly their players out to any tournaments without major help.
I honestly don't understand how anyone can defend MLG's decisions in regard to this PPV model, they've completely jumped the shark in regards to the running and planning of this event and therefore shouldn't get anyones money. I mean they couldve ran this same event for such a smaller sum if they found a different venue and changed "PAY FOR EVERYTHING" to "travel stipend or X".
Whatever though, bubble gon pop.
I bet what happens in a weeks time is Sundance lowers the price to 10 dollars or puts up a GSL quality free stream and everyone hails him as the saviour of ESPORTS, fact is tournaments has been running for fucking years without pulling this shit and just because they now want to appeal to the mainstream by having fucking Dr Pepper cannons and hot pocket fireworks doesn't make me want to watch their product over any other cup.
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I think what Sam Mathews (owner of fnatic) posted on twitter would be a pretty good idea:
@sammathews Sam Mathews:
Hey @MLG @MLGSundance @MrMLGAdam Make a $0.99 low quality stream, and $10 med quality, and 20$ high quality, and everyone will relax.
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I can easily understand why MLG is doing this and the intentions behind it, but I'm afraid that such move at this time of the year will alienate many people who like to watch SC 2 tournaments when it suits then, but are not willing to pay for it. In the end one would think that the SC 2 e-sports scene is also supported by people who watch when it suits them, but are not ready to pay for it unless it comes cheap.
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Canceld my Gold membership before reading that post.
Great post and I guess ill still cancel it
They allready screwed with us. Its not like SC2 has a community which has no option to be ask considering new pricing models ...
edit: but i just spend the money i freed my cancling into upgrade of GSL ticket xD esports ftw.
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Very nice read. Still, I don't really see any pitchforks. Lots of people have been saying they will watch Assembly, which is a decisison everybody is free to make. Very few people have actually said something offensive or anything of that nature.
I think the "I'll pay the 20 to help esports and you should, too!!!12121!" white knighting should stop, it's just every individuals decision if they are ready to pay the money or not.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your opinion.
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On February 14 2012 18:55 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 18:29 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Do not agree with mass commercialization. Keep it free, make money off the ads... we all know they reap in good money from sponsors! The general community has 0 idea on how much money is sponsored on e-sports.. And I tell you now, the amount the community believes is incorrect.. by far.
Then share some numbers. The reason we have no idea is because everyone chooses to keep us in the dark. Then you complain that we have no idea...
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...okay...so goodbye MLG from my point of view. There are a lot of other events like GSL,IEM, LAN Events and Daily Cups.
No need for another one. Although i really like the idea of having an NA based Tournament. I do pay for live events if i am able to attend. So i see no need to pay for an stream. I watch all your commercials via Twitch etc. I think this is enough...and MLG i think gets more than 10000 people watching.
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Great post. I wish you'd step in at more times Alex, you always have great insight. I might buy the PPV this one time to see if the production is worth it, but it better be a hell of a show for the $20. I think it'd be be better if the gold members got a discount or it was 10$, but I'll make my decision after the event.
I do think it's too much, too soon. But I do think they're headed in the right direction.
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On February 14 2012 20:55 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 18:55 FXOpen wrote:On February 14 2012 18:29 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Do not agree with mass commercialization. Keep it free, make money off the ads... we all know they reap in good money from sponsors! The general community has 0 idea on how much money is sponsored on e-sports.. And I tell you now, the amount the community believes is incorrect.. by far. Then share some numbers. The reason we have no idea is because everyone chooses to keep us in the dark. Then you complain that we have no idea...
drop your pitchfork, prole.
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5$. I wouldn't spend more.
Maybe 5$ for a 720p with ads and a 10$ for a 1000p+ with no ads?
20$ is excessive, considering GSL pricing as well.
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On February 14 2012 18:55 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 18:29 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Do not agree with mass commercialization. Keep it free, make money off the ads... we all know they reap in good money from sponsors! The general community has 0 idea on how much money is sponsored on e-sports.. And I tell you now, the amount the community believes is incorrect.. by far.
We allready discussed the fact of ad-earnings in the "Monetizing SC" Thread. This is another problem which just correlates with the sustainable of eSports.
To offer an weekend for 20$ when GSL Light can be bought for 5$ a month is ridicouls.
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On February 14 2012 20:55 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 18:55 FXOpen wrote:On February 14 2012 18:29 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Do not agree with mass commercialization. Keep it free, make money off the ads... we all know they reap in good money from sponsors! The general community has 0 idea on how much money is sponsored on e-sports.. And I tell you now, the amount the community believes is incorrect.. by far. Then share some numbers. The reason we have no idea is because everyone chooses to keep us in the dark. Then you complain that we have no idea...
Most businesses don't hand out their numbers or contracts to the general public. And sponsors don't like their numbers and how much they are paying people being handed out.
Also saying you don't like "mass commercialization" and then telling them to make money off of adds is a bit silly. That is exactly what commercialization is, making money off of ads.
MLG clearly needs to make more money directly. The free streams might not be enough. GOM does it, but has the advantage of everyone coming to them, being in Korea and being able to things year round. MGL is looking for a model where we support them directly. I am ok with that as long as they come up with a reasonable price point. People don't like $20, but I am sure $10 is to low. Maybe we split the middle and pay $12-$15.
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On February 14 2012 20:53 jaydee81 wrote:
Very nice read. Still, I don't really see any pitchforks. Lots of people have been saying they will watch Assembly, which is a decisison everybody is free to make. Very few people have actually said something offensive or anything of that nature.
I think the "I'll pay the 20 to help esports and you should, too!!!12121!" white knighting should stop, it's just every individuals decision if they are ready to pay the money or not.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your opinion.
There's a lot of entitlement flying around and a lot of 'MLG is ruining esports' or 'sundance just wants to make a quick buck' or whatever. It's like LR threads on steroids complaint-wise.
On February 14 2012 21:06 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 18:55 FXOpen wrote:On February 14 2012 18:29 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Do not agree with mass commercialization. Keep it free, make money off the ads... we all know they reap in good money from sponsors! The general community has 0 idea on how much money is sponsored on e-sports.. And I tell you now, the amount the community believes is incorrect.. by far. We allready discussed the fact of ad-earnings in the "Monetizing SC" Thread. This is another problem which just correlates with the sustainable of eSports. To offer an weekend for 20$ when GSL Light can be bought for 5$ a month is ridicouls.
It's ridiculous from a consumer POV but from MLG's cost/profit POV 20$ is pretty good considering their extreme expenses vs. GOM's 1 studio.
In the end, business is business is business is e-sports. If MLG can't compete with higher cost / higher prices, they'll either downscale or stop alltogether, which would be sad to see as well.
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edit: double post because I'm retarded.
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On February 14 2012 21:11 Serelitz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 20:53 jaydee81 wrote:
Very nice read. Still, I don't really see any pitchforks. Lots of people have been saying they will watch Assembly, which is a decisison everybody is free to make. Very few people have actually said something offensive or anything of that nature.
I think the "I'll pay the 20 to help esports and you should, too!!!12121!" white knighting should stop, it's just every individuals decision if they are ready to pay the money or not.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your opinion. There's a lot of entitlement flying around and a lot of 'MLG is ruining esports' or 'sundance just wants to make a quick buck' or whatever. It's like LR threads on steroids complaint-wise. Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 21:06 bluQ wrote:On February 14 2012 18:55 FXOpen wrote:On February 14 2012 18:29 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Do not agree with mass commercialization. Keep it free, make money off the ads... we all know they reap in good money from sponsors! The general community has 0 idea on how much money is sponsored on e-sports.. And I tell you now, the amount the community believes is incorrect.. by far. We allready discussed the fact of ad-earnings in the "Monetizing SC" Thread. This is another problem which just correlates with the sustainable of eSports. To offer an weekend for 20$ when GSL Light can be bought for 5$ a month is ridicouls. It's ridiculous from a consumer POV but from MLG's cost/profit POV 20$ is pretty good considering their extreme expenses vs. GOM's 1 studio. In the end, business is business is business is e-sports. If MLG can't compete with higher cost / higher prices, they'll either downscale or stop alltogether, which would be sad to see as well.
I would just be very sad to see MLG vanish. And GOM has a more flexible pricing model, which I feel will hurt MLG a lot.
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On February 14 2012 15:26 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
Thank you for some real world insight on a difficult issue. I'm really, really happy to see MLG move towards a more self sustained future, it can only be better for all of us and will actually produce better content in the end. For those of you hating, take a minute to think. If MLG can grow, expand their business and revenue and then reinvest a bit of that into production, it will benefit all of us. I do think that $20 is a bit steep for just a weekend... I guess if it's literally better then GSL Code S "For $20 you get a full weekend of nothing but the absolute best StarCraft 2 in the world." then for $20 it will be completely worth it. At $10 I wouldn't have even given a second thought... instant purchase, I love MLG. $15 I would've had to think for a bit about it and at $20... I'll do it this time and see what I get. I'm more than happy to give Sundance a chance for all he's done for the community. If it sucks well then, I'll know better for the future.
This is exactly how I feel about this.
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Is companies asking for sympathy from their customers a modern thing or have I just not noticed it earlier? It really bothers me and even more so when I see people fall for it and act as if they're supporting the starving children in africa when they are buying a game or paying for a stream.
How about removing extended series before asking for money.
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first of al, great post, as for me; i'm currently attending college and am on a very tight budget because I have limited time to go to work (getting ~10 hours of work paid per week). I simply cannot afford luxury like the $20 pass or even teh GSL /cry
I would be very happy with a free 480p stream and offering 1080p HD + bonus services like rewind, instant VoD access and maybe entered into a raffle or something and other cool features for those who pay.
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On February 14 2012 20:55 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 18:55 FXOpen wrote:On February 14 2012 18:29 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Do not agree with mass commercialization. Keep it free, make money off the ads... we all know they reap in good money from sponsors! The general community has 0 idea on how much money is sponsored on e-sports.. And I tell you now, the amount the community believes is incorrect.. by far. Then share some numbers. The reason we have no idea is because everyone chooses to keep us in the dark. Then you complain that we have no idea...
They can't share the numbers because then they can't cry poverty and attempt to gouge a very loyal community. If the current business model isn't sustainable without going into PPV mode then guess what? All that prize money and caster money and event money needs to come waaaaaaay the fuck down. Maybe at the end of the day the players aren't worth the money they're being paid and the prize money they are playing for. I sure as hell don't feel like I should subsidize for something that grew too fast too soon. No one was asking for $100k prize pools. That's just where things started with GSL. No one asked for an arms race between EG and TL to see who can pay Huk the most money. That's what both those teams felt was in their best interest.
At the end of the day tournaments should have enough prize money that guarantees that the top talent would be motivated to show up. Nothing more and nothing less. What we have now is currently clearly unsustainable and I rather see a blow up now than a blow up a year from now.
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On February 14 2012 21:27 Phoobie wrote:
first of al, great post, as for me; i'm currently attending college and am on a very tight budget because I have limited time to go to work (getting ~10 hours of work paid per week). I simply cannot afford luxury like the $20 pass or even teh GSL /cry
I would be very happy with a free 480p stream and offering 1080p HD + bonus services like rewind, instant VoD access and maybe entered into a raffle or something and other cool features for those who pay.
What price point could a poor college student afford? $10?(to be clear, zero is not an option)
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I think the polls are extremely loaded/bias since there is no option for '$20 is fine, I'm happy paying $20 - that is what it is worth to me'.
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I feel that this model is wrong and hurts the way gold/silver was brought in to the picture. I'm a gold member, with no intention on buying any extra events that have any impact on the "regular season".
Gold must mean something, and extra payements should only involve events that is completly separate from the rest.
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Everyone knew there's going to be outrage when big tournaments start removing their free streams. Announce hilarious overprice and then make your friends post around the Internets how the price should be. Cut price in half and poof goes the outrage. Clever.
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Ok, i said early that i wont pay for it, but i ll change my mind, IF ONLY they sell it in my current - money, coin - REAL$ - So, if they price it in reais, i ll buy, and dont come with international creditcard and sh1t i wanna a nacional way to buy it, otherwise, i ll never buy. Looks at my situation: 1 real = 1.90 dollars, so i ll be paying 40 reais, it not worth for me, sorry.
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People are spoiled, whats $ 20 ... Really its not that much and its well worth the investment.
Maybe they should go to a system where the minimum amount is $ 2,50 and anything over it you can donate yourself. If you find it worth of $ 50, give 50.
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I agree with this guy, I will buy it for $10 but not $20. 
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On February 14 2012 21:11 Serelitz wrote:
It's ridiculous from a consumer POV but from MLG's cost/profit POV 20$ is pretty good considering their extreme expenses vs. GOM's 1 studio.
In the end, business is business is business is e-sports. If MLG can't compete with higher cost / higher prices, they'll either downscale or stop alltogether, which would be sad to see as well.
I think you make a lot of sense here. There is a lot of free high quality content currently available, so to have people pay quite a premium for content requires that the content be very high quality indeed.
For me the issue seems to be that MLG have chosen to put on a very expensive tournament, flying players to a very expensive city, choosing not to have live viewers (who generally pay) and having a quite large prize pool. Now, to pay for all of that, they have chosen the PPV model, which has it's own draw backs. However, PPV may be the right choice to make this tournament sustainable.
I personally don't believe that people should support this tournament to support e-sports, if this is a viable model, then it will work without the guilt trips. By choosing not to support this tournament, you are saying it's not right for you for whatever reason, not saying you hate e-sports.
I hope it works out for MLG, they genuinely seem like nice people and have run great tournaments in the past.
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I'm a silver member :'/ Not supporting them through payments as I'm pretty poor, but I'd love to take adds and commercials (and maybe even buy) from their sponsors.
I'm kindda shocked they would do this rather than add revenue. Ads are good for planning (you can run commercials during breaks and such), good for money (they will most likely pay most of the expenses) and good for both MLG and the companies since they will be able to focus commercials towards a specific crowd. I love getting commercials about games, processors, headsets and other gaming stuff.
I'm going with B Won't be able to pay for it. Such a shame, I love MLG
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On February 14 2012 21:43 BadBinky wrote:
Everyone knew there's going to be outrage when big tournaments start removing their free streams. Announce hilarious overprice and then make your friends post around the Internets how the price should be. Cut price in half and poof goes the outrage. Clever.
It's not clever. It's an insult to the customer. There was absolutely nothing wrong with existing freemium models. Hell, ESL has run like that for ages. Provide good service first and people follow. [Personal anecdote] I was always more or less satisfied with ESL's abysmal LQ stream. But soon after they hired Mr.Bitter and Bitterdam started to put out a ton of hilarious shows, I reconsidered it.
Even a straight up 10$ charge would have produced half of the outrage and even convince a ton more people to pay for it- without unneeded amounts of drama.
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On February 14 2012 21:46 ihasaKAROT wrote:
People are spoiled, whats $ 20 ... Really its not that much and its well worth the investment.
Maybe they should go to a system where the minimum amount is $ 2,50 and anything over it you can donate yourself. If you find it worth of $ 50, give 50.
Your reasoning that a product below a certain pricepoint can't be considered overpriced make little sense.
I agree with the OP, in general. I would have likely purchased it for 10$ with ads, possibly 5 given that I have a Gold membership. There will be no live audience, the timezone will be unfavorable for me, and Assembly is largely at the same time. It is not a worthwhile investment for me (and I speak as both a GSL and MLG subscriber), particularly given their unhappy timing.
I am not sure about their business plan's flaws and merits (did they rent a venue in NYC for an offline event?), but I simply am not interested in MLG Arena at this price.
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On February 14 2012 21:46 ihasaKAROT wrote:
People are spoiled, whats $ 20 ... Really its not that much and its well worth the investment.
Maybe they should go to a system where the minimum amount is $ 2,50 and anything over it you can donate yourself. If you find it worth of $ 50, give 50.
It's great that $20 is nothing to you, but for others it's a lot of money, and clearly there are people who don't think it's worth the investment. I might buy one depending upon how much time I have available that weekend, but I'm not going to abuse others because they choose not to or can't.
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On February 14 2012 21:52 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 21:43 BadBinky wrote:
Everyone knew there's going to be outrage when big tournaments start removing their free streams. Announce hilarious overprice and then make your friends post around the Internets how the price should be. Cut price in half and poof goes the outrage. Clever. It's not clever. It's an insult to the customer. There was absolutely nothing wrong with existing freemium models. Hell, ESL has run like that for ages. Provide good service first and people follow. [Personal anecdote] I was always more or less satisfied with ESL's abysmal LQ stream. But soon after they hired Mr.Bitter and Bitterdam started to put out a ton of hilarious shows, I reconsidered it. Even a straight up 10$ charge would have produced half of the outrage and even convince a ton more people to pay for it- without unneeded amounts of drama.
I think it's a clever way to get more people to pay 10 bucks they wouldn't pay if they announced their real price right away.
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The 'we want everything for free at the highest quality' mindset is whats gonna break esports back sooner or later. That and the 'i'll buy it to support esports' mentality. I don't buy soccer tickets or a monthy HD-TV sub to support my team. I buy it to watch the fucking games.
I mean from what I can tell as an outsider there is almost no money to be made in esports. Some players/organizers can make a decent income but it mostly relies on volunteers. That's not gonna change until people start to pay money for events just like in any other sports. And to be honest: 20$ seems high compared to other esports events but when you look at any other sports you'll notice that most of them cost much more than 1$/hour of entertainment.
And to all the people saying there is nothing wrong with freemium models: They dont make money. Look at HSC4. Like 60k viewers, lots of sponsors, lots of volunteers, relatively low production cost compared to other events yet TaKe said that he isnt really making money from it right now.
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I dont even think 20$ is much, thats like what - 3-4 beers in a pub? and for that you get a whole weekend of sc2 action. 10$ would be just dirty cheap, and for people he wouldnt even pay that - youre pretty greedy .
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I'd love to have an option of:
- Free LQ stream if you have MLG Gold
- 5$ for HQ stream if you have MLG Gold, or 10$ otherwise
Edit: I will pay for THIS time, just because Gold Membership for 2011 was such a bargain. But MLG, you better come up with a more sensible solution.
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On February 14 2012 21:56 BadBinky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 21:52 rotegirte wrote:On February 14 2012 21:43 BadBinky wrote:
Everyone knew there's going to be outrage when big tournaments start removing their free streams. Announce hilarious overprice and then make your friends post around the Internets how the price should be. Cut price in half and poof goes the outrage. Clever. It's not clever. It's an insult to the customer. There was absolutely nothing wrong with existing freemium models. Hell, ESL has run like that for ages. Provide good service first and people follow. [Personal anecdote] I was always more or less satisfied with ESL's abysmal LQ stream. But soon after they hired Mr.Bitter and Bitterdam started to put out a ton of hilarious shows, I reconsidered it. Even a straight up 10$ charge would have produced half of the outrage and even convince a ton more people to pay for it- without unneeded amounts of drama. I think it's a clever way to get more people to pay 10 bucks they wouldn't pay if they announced their real price right away.
Maybe, yes. But quite an unnecessary risk to take when you want to gauge reliable numbers. All I'm saying is my opinion differs and I think a more no-strings-attached approach wins me as a customer. If the majority likes such child's play, so be it. I'll just skip on the first one and reconsider it in future events then.
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On February 14 2012 21:54 DR.Ham wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 21:46 ihasaKAROT wrote:
People are spoiled, whats $ 20 ... Really its not that much and its well worth the investment.
Maybe they should go to a system where the minimum amount is $ 2,50 and anything over it you can donate yourself. If you find it worth of $ 50, give 50. It's great that $20 is nothing to you, but for others it's a lot of money, and clearly there are people who don't think it's worth the investment. I might buy one depending upon how much time I have available that weekend, but I'm not going to abuse others because they choose not to or can't.
Its not nothing to me, its just not as much if you look at what you get for it. Everything is free nowadays, downloads and streams are what most people think of as the 'normal'. I dont mind paying for a good service, $ 20 seems like a reasonable amount to me.
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I actually don't think $20 is that bad. It's the same as going to a movie or out to dinner, but $/hr you are getting a lot better of a deal. This is a slippery slope to move onto though. I don't think I would ever pay more than $20 for a pass. I also agree with Alex that MLG would make more money charging $10-$15 than charging $20.
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I have to say that no matter the community outcry I think this will earn MLG a lot of money. Before they had to survive on advertisements now I think the ads are still there but an extra 20$ for anybody IMO silly enough to buy, but think about it this way, if only 500 people buy the pass that's still 10 000$. So if just 2000 people buy the pass that's 40 000$ which is absolutely tons, more than enough you would think.
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The whole buy it and support eSports is such nonsense, tired of people pulling this card whenever someone does something unpopular.
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On February 14 2012 22:04 DrN0 wrote:
I have to say that no matter the community outcry I think this will earn MLG a lot of money. Before they had to survive on advertisements now I think the ads are still there but an extra 20$ for anybody IMO silly enough to buy, but think about it this way, if only 500 people buy the pass that's still 10 000$. So if just 2000 people buy the pass that's 40 000$ which is absolutely tons, more than enough you would think.
I am fairly sure 40k$ is not even enough to cover the players' expenses.
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i wont purchase it for this event for sure...
just to show that they shold not do something like this withough asking the opinion of the viewers...
ill gladly pay 5 or 10 $ for it though if they lower the price for the next events
EDIT: so option b i guess
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On February 14 2012 21:56 BadBinky wrote:
I think it's a clever way to get more people to pay 10 bucks they wouldn't pay if they announced their real price right away.
I doubt that this is the overall plan, and I also doubt people are really that transparent with their spending. As a matter of fact, this thread proves you wrong. People weigh the options and the amounts very carefully and deliberately.
I also don't believe Sundance/MLG will change this model for the Winter tournament. It is very clear to me that this is a trial run, and I would like to applaud them for actually doing it. I applaud them because they are putting a sizable chunk of money behind it, and not to make a huge profit, but to see if they can't kick the revenue models to the next level and accelerate the growth and financial backing of the scene. I disagree with them on the timing, but I hope I'm wrong and they're right and it ends up working out for them.
But back to your point; I would have right away and would still put up $10 because I have a Gold membership already. I would like to see a ~$30 extra on an annual ticket, assuming 4 of those events a year, and calling it Platinum or whatever. I don't see how the $20 announcement makes a lick of a difference, I think it makes for a good and healthy discussion though.
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Great post but I have one problem with it. You state that we might be looking at a 80% decrease in viewership because of this PPV business, yet you want the industry to grow and your team to make more money by selling direct-to-source merchandise. How does a 80% decline in viewership help that happen at all if 80% less than before will be interested and see your team play? Sure there's more money in play with this business model in the short term but the money is not spread anywhere near as evenly as it would if there were free LQ streams available or if the passes where set at a more fair price.
This move, to me, feels like MLG has sat down and said to themselves that the peak interest has been reached and it is now time to cash in rather than getting more people interested in SC2 as an e-sport which is really not the case and will stump the growth of it in the long run.
Big up for not standing by something that you do not believe in though!
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I would assume that MLG are hoping they can still get up to around the 10,000 viewer mark. The silly thing is I don't think they will get close to that (I would guess around 5,000), but I'm certain a $10 ticket would get them 25,000 viewers. Now I'm not that good at maths, but it seems like 5,000 x $20 might - in some circumstances - be somewhat less than 25,000 x $10. Is that right?
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Thanks for your point of view Alex. I don't think $20 is absurd but I do agree that it's a bit much to go from Freemium to $20. I will pay for Winter Arena. But I'd rather pay $10 since this is a new model. I'd love for MLG to take this chance but I hope in the future they lower the pricing and do more for the gold members. I hope that MLG is still a success. I'll be attending Columbus and I can't wait.
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The problem is we don't get much for the $20 we're supposed to be spending, especially when you consider the competition (GSL, IEM, etc.)
E-sports doesn't grow by throwing money at a tournament organizer. They have to give value to the paying customer. Now we don't know their exact budget (and quite frankly we shouldn't), but if they can't afford to put on a free stream for an entire weekend (not just Friday and Saturday) and/or a $10 premium HQ stream, then I can't help but wonder what they're doing behind closed doors to justify the $20. For me personally, I think I'll pass on watching MLG for now and spend my money elsewhere.
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On February 14 2012 22:07 WigglingSquid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 22:04 DrN0 wrote:
I have to say that no matter the community outcry I think this will earn MLG a lot of money. Before they had to survive on advertisements now I think the ads are still there but an extra 20$ for anybody IMO silly enough to buy, but think about it this way, if only 500 people buy the pass that's still 10 000$. So if just 2000 people buy the pass that's 40 000$ which is absolutely tons, more than enough you would think. I am fairly sure 40k$ is not even enough to cover the players' expenses.
no i would take 2k$ per player as an average value, so this would come to 64k$.
I don't know how MLG computed their budgets, but anyway 20$ for a 32player tournament is just way too much. Will every match be broadcasted? Then i would at least think about it. Will there be some group stages? (which would mean more matches)? I wouldn't pay 20$ for a 32 player double or single elimination tournament, cause that's way to less content for that prize. It's really a shame, that they ruined their great event with the prize.
If they don't make it cheaper down to 10$, I will completely skip this tournament and just check the results . And that's really sad, since i was really looking forward to it.
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On February 14 2012 22:20 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 22:07 WigglingSquid wrote:On February 14 2012 22:04 DrN0 wrote:
I have to say that no matter the community outcry I think this will earn MLG a lot of money. Before they had to survive on advertisements now I think the ads are still there but an extra 20$ for anybody IMO silly enough to buy, but think about it this way, if only 500 people buy the pass that's still 10 000$. So if just 2000 people buy the pass that's 40 000$ which is absolutely tons, more than enough you would think. I am fairly sure 40k$ is not even enough to cover the players' expenses. no i would take 2k$ per player as an average value, so this would come to 64k$. I don't know how MLG computed their budgets, but anyway 20$ for a 32player tournament is just way too much. Will every match be broadcasted? Then i would at least think about it. Will there be some group stages? (which would mean more matches)? I wouldn't pay 20$ for a 32 player double or single elimination tournament, cause that's way to less content for that prize. It's really a shame, that they ruined their great event with the prize. If they don't make it cheaper down to 10$, I will completely skip this tournament and just check the results . And that's really sad, since i was really looking forward to it.
every match is broadcast through five streams, + behind the scenes, interviews etc etc etc(check their page)
idk about format, I think it's D.E
that said, I'm one of these "please tone down to 10". I bought gold membership already, and I'd surely love to buy this one as well; however 20 dollars is simply too much for a weekend.
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Here is an issue that I haven't seen addressed:
The real cost is $20 PPV plus the time spent watching.
I cannot devote an entire weekend (20+ hours) to the MLG Arena, I'd love to, but cannot. I probably can watch an hour here or there, and really try to watch the final few rounds or catch my favorite players.
I do buy the GSL ticket because I can time-shift by a day or two, the important matches that I want to watch. This happens once or twice a week, so over the course of a GSL season I think I get my money's worth. In contrast, the MLG Arena will generate too much content for me to consume without being too spoiled or old, and thus not really worth my money.
That being said, I will pay my $20 this time, but make it clear that $20 is too much for one weekend, and it should be lowered to $10.
New Idea: Hourly charge (e.g. $1/hour for live stream). Let's say an Arena cost $10 and there are 20 hours of content for the weekend. If I only can watch on Sunday for 4 hours, then I will pay you $4 instead of zero.
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On February 14 2012 22:24 SolonTLG wrote:
Here is an issue that I haven't seen addressed:
The real cost is $20 PPV plus the time spent watching.
I cannot devote an entire weekend (20+ hours) to the MLG Arena, I'd love to, but cannot. I probably can watch an hour here or there, and really try to watch the final few rounds or catch my favorite players.
I do buy the GSL ticket because I can time-shift by a day or two, the important matches that I want to watch. This happens once or twice a week, so over the course of a GSL season I think I get my money's worth. In contrast, the MLG Arena will generate too much content for me to consume without being too spoiled or old, and thus not really worth my money.
That being said, I will pay my $20 this time, but make it clear that $20 is too much for one weekend, and it should be lowered to $10.
New Idea: Hourly charge (e.g. $1/hour for live stream). Let's say an Arena cost $10 and there are 20 hours of content for the weekend. If I only can watch on Sunday for 4 hours, then I will pay you $4 instead of zero.
It was kinda adressed because the whole problem is inflexibel pricing model. I hope they change it to different types.
Like you suggested and like said over and over again: cheaper prices for worse quality, high prices for high quality.
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Every major event deserves the poor man audience. Whether the standard price is $10 or $20, please provide a 480p stream at $5. All I want is the very minimum, just to follow along with the action.
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On February 14 2012 22:25 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 22:24 SolonTLG wrote:
Here is an issue that I haven't seen addressed:
The real cost is $20 PPV plus the time spent watching.
I cannot devote an entire weekend (20+ hours) to the MLG Arena, I'd love to, but cannot. I probably can watch an hour here or there, and really try to watch the final few rounds or catch my favorite players.
I do buy the GSL ticket because I can time-shift by a day or two, the important matches that I want to watch. This happens once or twice a week, so over the course of a GSL season I think I get my money's worth. In contrast, the MLG Arena will generate too much content for me to consume without being too spoiled or old, and thus not really worth my money.
That being said, I will pay my $20 this time, but make it clear that $20 is too much for one weekend, and it should be lowered to $10.
New Idea: Hourly charge (e.g. $1/hour for live stream). Let's say an Arena cost $10 and there are 20 hours of content for the weekend. If I only can watch on Sunday for 4 hours, then I will pay you $4 instead of zero. It was kinda adressed because the whole problem is inflexibel pricing model. I hope they change it to different types. Like you suggested and like said over and over again: cheaper prices for worse quality, high prices for high quality.
I totally agree that the current MLG PPV model is inflexible. But I just wanted to highlight an additional cost of time that I didn't see discussed too much.
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You need an option for, I'd buy it if it was less than $10. I'm sorry, but for my money, $10 is stretching it, especially for something I most likely won't get to watch all of. VODs you say!?! I generally find I don't get time to watch VODs after events unless it's an especially awesome game. There are just so many other tournaments to watch.
- Signed, poor college student.
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I think it's lame that the polls don't have an option for "I think $20 for a weekend of hundreds of high-production games is reasonable."
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[eh, made the point better a post above]
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20$ isn't a reasonable price for a consumer base that ( whether you'd like to admit it or not ) spends all day at home not working or goes to school full time ( giving the benefit of the doubt here). The price tag just makes them look REALLY clueless.
I spent money on my GSL membership and buy team liquid gear when I don't even really have time to view it ( considering the GSL is literally the opposite of my sleep schedule ) just to support the community but 20$ for one event is pushing your consumer base far beyond their means.
Hopefully Alex will distribute a sort of real world insight ( which in this case was just plain common sense, do you really think your fan base is just untapped like, say, the Knicks fan base? Even Jeremy Lin beating MVP in a GSL final wouldn't make most people pay 20$ for an event. ) to the MLG.
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Even though I chosen the B option I don't think I'll buy a ticket even if it will go down to a 10$ price for making an example of the MLG to be a warning to the other tournaments not try the same.
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On February 14 2012 22:31 sensenmann wrote:
You need an option for, I'd buy it if it was less than $10. I'm sorry, but for my money, $10 is stretching it, especially for something I most likely won't get to watch all of. VODs you say!?! I generally find I don't get time to watch VODs after events unless it's an especially awesome game. There are just so many other tournaments to watch.
- Signed, poor college student.
I'm honestly with you on this. Call me cheap, but I would even go so far as to say $5 sounds like a much more reasonable price than $10. It's one weekend, and it doesn't even carry the hype of a main event. Plus, just as Alex said he thinks more than twice as many people would pay $10 than $20, I believe more than twice as many people would pay $5 than $10. It's such a small amount that I don't see many esports fans passing it up.
Great OP btw. Very well put.
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I just feel so confused by the community's response to all of this. It just seems like a petulant child screaming about something they don't want or don't like. The amount of entitlement is disgusting.
I don't see how people can blindly and ignorantly claim they wouldn't even pay $10 for something because CLEARLY ad revenue MORE than makes up for it. Thank god we all have such insider information.
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Technically they should be pricing to market if they're forcing a PPV.
Something like $5 for the main stream in normal quality, and an extra $15 for 4 more streams, with all streams in HQ. They've just alienated so many to start the base price so high.
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I have not purchased a GSL ticket yet, that certainly comes before an MLG ticket. Also $20 is just too much right now, unless MLG has some really, really special shit planned... I would probably feel ripped off if I spent $20 on watching a few hours of SC.
$10 seems much more appropriate. Again... unless you have something really special that that $20 is going to. Like if you send MarineKing skydiving... well yeah then my $20 is worth it probably.
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On February 14 2012 22:40 Sideburn wrote:
I just feel so confused by the community's response to all of this. It just seems like a petulant child screaming about something they don't want or don't like. The amount of entitlement is disgusting.
I don't see how people can blindly and ignorantly claim they wouldn't even pay $10 for something because CLEARLY ad revenue MORE than makes up for it. Thank god we all have such insider information.
No one cares about that, and no, you're completely wrong.
It's not about sense of entitlement, it's about relative value. I can watch GSL for free, why would I spend 20 dollars for one MLG event? It's extremely overpriced compared to the rest of the market, you can watch pretty much anything for free, so most people won't have any problem skipping an event which you have to pay for. It's not sense of entitlement, it's just using common sense. Which MLG should use as well and realize the viewership will be pathetic and thus they won't be making any money anyway.
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On February 14 2012 22:43 oDDable wrote:
$10 seems much more appropriate. Again... unless you have something really special that that $20 is going to. Like if you send MarineKing skydiving... well yeah then my $20 is worth it probably.
Ok, go on..
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Great post Alex and I'm basically in agreement.
I can totally see why at least experimenting with PPV is necessary for the industry to become sustainable.. but I just feel the price is too high. It's not even a particularly logical decision on my part, because I could afford to pay $20 and it wouldn't mean I go hungry, but on some level psychologically that figure just rankles... whereas if it was $10 it'd be a no-brainer. I think one reason for this feeling is that I can't help but imagine that most tournaments will be heading to a PPV model in the future and establishing a reasonable price point is going to be extremely important for those of us that plan on trying to watch pretty much every tournament that comes up. So I ask myself; if there was a $10 tournament every weekend would I feel happy continually paying that and supporting the scene? Yes, I probably would... but $20 would really make me think twice as over the year that would mount up pretty considerably.
As others have also mentioned it does seem an unfortunate choice to try out this experiment on the same weekend as Assembly as there's only so much SC2 one man can take and if I'm already watching many hours of it for free at an EU friendly time.. well lets just say it becomes a lot less attractive to watch another 20 or so more hours by staying up till 6am each morning and paying for the privilege.
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So... I cancelled my Gold membership and told MLG why.
I hope that they will have some fun. I won't be paying to watch it.
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Such sad poll results with almost 40% of people saying they wouldn't even pay $10 or less. I don't know how Sundance puts up with trying to make this shit grow when a huge amount of people just bitch that they want free stuff but then complain when it's not that well produced. Unbelievable.
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On February 14 2012 22:56 Treva wrote:
Such sad poll results with almost 40% of people saying they wouldn't even pay $10 or less. I don't know how Sundance puts up with trying to make this shit grow when a huge amount of people just bitch that they want free stuff but then complain when it's not that well produced. Unbelievable.
Aren't you forgetting the 60% willing to pay for content?
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On February 14 2012 22:40 Sideburn wrote:
I just feel so confused by the community's response to all of this. It just seems like a petulant child screaming about something they don't want or don't like. The amount of entitlement is disgusting.
I don't see how people can blindly and ignorantly claim they wouldn't even pay $10 for something because CLEARLY ad revenue MORE than makes up for it. Thank god we all have such insider information.
Actually it seems more like the response a smart consumer base gives to someone who is trying to rip them off. But nice try, you wanted to sound all smart and stuff yet came off as smug and condescending. Keep up the quality posts.
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Sundance may have my $20 this time. But I've let him know via email that it may be the last time.
I've supported MLG since 2006 and gone out of my way to throw all my money at them. Something about this just doesn't feel right. Maybe its too much too fast, I really don't know.
As usual, Sundance personally answered my email within 15 minutes. I DO want to support a guy like that. One of the most down-to-earth CEO's I've had the pleasure (or pain) of dealing with.
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I'm just annoyed I forked out for a Gold membership only to get half as many events as last year included in my membership.
I'm seriously thinking about cancelling my membership too.
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Respect for EG!
Thank you for the honest statement.
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Option other: MLG has no way to take my money. They have my eyes which they sell to advertisers, its up to them to figure out how to make that work. Streamers make it work, TV makes it work. ESPORTS fans dont have the depth of wallet that NFL, UFC, WWF fans have. We just dont.
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MLG has so much advertising that charging 20 dollars for a weekend is just a punch in the face of the people who want to watch. They can't lose the status of being money grubbing whores that they have for me, anymore.
And a whole lot of idiots watching even fall for the ads, so they should be able to make the advertisers pay. See: Visine. "Hurr durr, they support esports" - No they don't, you retards, they support getting more money.
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I also think that 20$ is a bit overpriced. 10$ or 15$ would've been perfect.
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Option A because I wanna watch MLG -.-
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I wish people would pump the brakes a bit on all the entitlement talk
Think of all the people who are merely casual viewer who just don't care that much to throw down $20. They watch a couple games during MLGs but they don't post, they don't glue themselves to the computer for it. Are they all entitled shit heads too?
Whether or not you want to accept it, the reality is many people don't see the value in paying to watch people play video games. There's no reason to call these people cheap or accuse them of hurting esports. It's just a basic fact. I might regularly buy something many others don't see the value in, like say my usenet subscription, I don't accuse them all of being cheap for it. Why would I?
When a lot of people say "this isn't worth it to me, I'm going to pass" as a business you should be listening to that very closely. What you don't do is throw a temper tantrum and call everyone self entitled because they don't see the value in your product. That is your problem to solve when you decide to sell something.
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Gold members got boned.
If you want to encourage a paid viewership you don't screw over the people who pay upfront, wtf
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If the price had been set at $10 then I would have been much more tempted to buy it, but as it stands I won't be paying. I'm studying right now and my budget is finite, so when I look at where I will be spending my money with regards to esports then I have to be rather picky. Right now the GSL is the benefactor of what I am willing to spend, and with their yearly sub plan it works out quite cheap for a wealth of content. When I compare what MLG is offering here (no live audience/what is basically a side tournament for their usual circuit), then I fail to see where they can justify the $20 price tag.
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On February 14 2012 23:05 DJFaqU wrote:
MLG has so much advertising that charging 20 dollars for a weekend is just a punch in the face of the people who want to watch. They can't lose the status of being money grubbing whores that they have for me, anymore.
And a whole lot of idiots watching even fall for the ads, so they should be able to make the advertisers pay. See: Visine. "Hurr durr, they support esports" - No they don't, you retards, they support getting more money.
If they say that they cant live from adds alone I'm willing to believe that.
And yeah, fuck them for actually trying to make money, how evil.. Every sport exists for the purpose of making money, "we give you entertainment, you give us money, both happy"
Still 20$ is just too much for me:
5$ + the usual adds? "We need to find some way to make this work and 5$ should be fine for most people" - In a heartbeat
10$ + the usual adds "We know this is sudden but we cant live from adds alone" - Well Its MLG and I always enjoyed their stuff, dont like it but oh well...
20$ with or without adds - Nope, sorry :/
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Bisutopia19230 Posts
It's tough to keep making payments for these events especially when I barely make it month to month, but I just remind myself how much dedication these progamers have put into this and I can't justify not supporting them. When you love something so much, and it's easy when it's Starcraft, sometimes you too have to make sacrifices. MLG is such a wonderful event and I wish each person here could attend at least one of their events in person so you can truly feel what this atmosphere is really like. I believe that spending the money now means that we will put enough profit into the community that things will become easier in the future. Remember that these players are human and have to support themselves too. So I will pay what I must because I love Starcraft and it's competitors.
edit: spelling fixes
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I'll go with B... 20$ is honestly too much for this kind of event.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 14 2012 23:18 -y0shi- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 23:05 DJFaqU wrote:
MLG has so much advertising that charging 20 dollars for a weekend is just a punch in the face of the people who want to watch. They can't lose the status of being money grubbing whores that they have for me, anymore.
And a whole lot of idiots watching even fall for the ads, so they should be able to make the advertisers pay. See: Visine. "Hurr durr, they support esports" - No they don't, you retards, they support getting more money. If they say that they cant live from adds alone I'm willing to believe that. And yeah, fuck them for actually trying to make money, how evil.. Every sport exists for the purpose of making money, "we give you entertainment, you give us money, both happy" Still 20$ is just too much for me: 5$ + the usual adds? "We need to find some way to make this work and 5$ should be fine for most people" - In a heartbeat 10$ + the usual adds "We know this is sudden but we cant live from adds alone" - Well Its MLG and I always enjoyed their stuff, dont like it but oh well... 20$ with or without adds - Nope, sorry :/
10$ with adds for 3 days of content is still too steep compared to the rest of the offers (GSL, or free to watch tournaments like ESL, IPL or Assembly) but I'd maybe be willing to pay for it if the content was really, really worth it.
5$ with full adds, yes I would pay. What I'd be more willing to pay is something like the price of a gold membership for a year if it included ALL the content.
Edit : Hell, the price of a gold membership AND adds if it has to be this way.
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This is the reason i like capitalism.
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As always an interesting read Alex. In the end, I hope MLG just responds to criticism with action and the Winter Arena is an awesome events that people feel like they must buy to see. I don't think people in this community can turn down a well-produced, unique product. The question is..can MLG do it? I think they can with enough help. So, option A.
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$20 is too much with or without adds.
It should be something such as:
Free: LQ(360p) with adds
$5: LQ+(480p) with adds OR as a single day HQ(720p-1080p) pass
$10: HQ(720-1080p) with no adds.
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I get get a full season of GSL for $15. I bought a Gold Membership with the promise of great things to come. Almost seems like a Bait and Switch tactic.
However,
I don't think asking for $20 4 times a year is too unreasonable. You should get the MLG championship as well though. I don't know how many season the GSL will have this year, but Iook at what it costs to get a year of GSL.
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I spent $20 on dinner in an entire week, this is ridiculous and as a student, I simply can't afford it.
The 3-5 hours of content that I would be able to catch live is not worth the price point, plain and simple. I'll catch the games as VODs when they come out for free, and put them on in the background while I study, just as I usually do for the championship series games (typically only watch the last 3-4 rounds on sunday live).
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On February 14 2012 22:56 Treva wrote:
Such sad poll results with almost 40% of people saying they wouldn't even pay $10 or less. I don't know how Sundance puts up with trying to make this shit grow when a huge amount of people just bitch that they want free stuff but then complain when it's not that well produced. Unbelievable. Like I posted earlier in the thread, right now it doesn't really matter for me personally if it's $5 or 20 because I'm more worried about potential detrimental effects with models like this in the long run than the entertainment I might get from this event. So even though it would be nice if they lowered it to 10 I voted that I wouldn't buy it anyway since I don't think I would.
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Well put Alex I agree with your points. I had similar feelings and I posted the in the "main" thread. I probably would have found a way to pay $10 for this tournament but $20 is just out of the question when comparing the value to the GSL or GSTL.
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For me
$5: Instant buy
$10: Probably buy depending on production / casters
$20: No chance
$20 has got to be around the cost of a month of Premier League games.
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On February 14 2012 22:56 Treva wrote:
Such sad poll results with almost 40% of people saying they wouldn't even pay $10 or less. I don't know how Sundance puts up with trying to make this shit grow when a huge amount of people just bitch that they want free stuff but then complain when it's not that well produced. Unbelievable.
Oh poor Sundance, he probably lives in a basement somewhere and works constantly all day for pennies. We should pay for this event so he can feed his family right?
Stop feeling sympathy for companies you god damn idiots, it's disgusting.
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I'd have no problem paying 10$ for 720p with ads, 10 bucks really isn't that much. 20$ for just a weekend is a little steep though. I'm kind of disappointed with MLG still airing the finals on a late sunday night/early monday morning in Europe. Is it that unreasonable to air it on a saturday or earlier on a sunday, maybe at 16:00?
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MLG should have asked Herman Cain to do a promotional. Make the PPV cost $9.99.
Great insight by an industry insider, though I personally would have preferred a year-long subscription, as it is just less hassle, rather than PPV each Arena
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I simply do not have the time to sit around for the whole weekend watching the stream. If I had the time, I might be willing to spend some money. $20 for an entire weekend of entertainment is not bad... but who has time for that? If you're like me you might be lucky to have a couple hours of free time to watch. I'm a full-time student and I work part-time. The only chance I get to watch SC2 content is usually while studying or during breaks from studying. So in my case I would be paying $20 for 2 hours of entertainment—not worth it. Maybe in the summer I will have more free time—then I might consider paying. But even then, I will be on a tight budget, saving money for tuition, etc.
Ultimately, I will continue to watch SC2 streams but I will watch whatever is available for free during the limited spare time I have. Sometimes I will run 2 or 3 streams at a time in the background while I do homework. If that's not enough support for you (Sundance/MLG) then you have likely lost me as a fan/spectator.
All the best!
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PPV will never work and if it continues on esport will just decline like it already has begun. I know 10 people who play sc2 since realease. now none of them play it anymore even myself only 2 games in season 5. I am also the only one who watch esports of the people i know. PPV will not raise any more viewers it will only decrease at best. also in Europe PPV never had a tradition, at least not in Germany. Premiere, Sky all the large tv broadcaster here fail at PPV. the people are not even willing to pay money to watvh soccer in tv, so i cant imagine that PPV will have much success here. sc2 is only one hobby among others. If you cant watch sc2 then whatever. I got the feeling that mlg or others think that there are enough viewers willing to pay because of the big number of viewership but to be honest its always the same bunch of people watching.
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The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed
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Maybe MLG should look at it's cost structure instead of expecting kids to overpay for a weekend if entertainment. I pay for GSL because it's not only the best games, production value, and caters, but because there is a metricfuckton of content that comes with it.
It was nice knowing ya, MLG.
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I think a low-quality free stream (the way GSL does it) would be better instead of a purely premium based model with no free alternatives.
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I put down the $20 not because I think it will be worth it, but I really want this industry grow. Making an even like this fail intentionally is not something I want to do. I wouldn't advocate it to be a smashing event and set a precedence either.
MLG is a good tournament with good players and I like how they are talking about flying players out and putting them up on their dime, but you aren't the only tournament. If this becomes a standard and there are 3-4 tournaments in a month people would be paying more to watch the game than the game itself cost in a single month. Not very sustainable, at all.
I'm going to restate a point people have already made, if myself and others are paying $20 bucks for this it damn well be pretty polished of an event. Lots of professionalism, quality production, and constant value from it. If it was anything like IEM where I am sitting for 30-40 minutes between matches watching 1 overlay and 1 commercial on repeat I would never pay for another MLG production again regardless of price point. If you're going to charge do it right the first time and please please please blow us away. Make it worth it.
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On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed
do please quote the $150 million, because that seems to be an outlandish accusation to make without any context/basis.
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I honestly don't see the big issue with this at all. The Winter Arena in my opinion has been marketed as a premium, almost VIP or boutique style event with really high production value. The price reflects this, the only way I will feel ripped off is if I purchase the ticket and don't feel like I got my moneys worth (ie. if the production quality is closer to that of past MLG events, lots of dead space between games, etc. )
I'm sure a vast majority of the people here will spend at least $20 multiple times a week on dinner and drinks, $20 or more on a sporting event ticket, or even up to $60 for a PPV of a sporting event (MMA comes to mind) which will last less than a few hours without a premium VOD service later.
For the people saying "I'd pay $10 but not $20", you really have to think about the amount of money you're whining about, please think about it next time you spend $10 to go to a movie or buy Starbucks for you and your girlfriend. Compare those things to getting an entire weekend of premium viewing on 5 different streams? $20 is a good deal in my opinion. Like Alex said, at some point these organizations have to make money from sources other than 3rd party sponsors, and because of this the cost of production will go up, and along with it the amount of content and quality of content.
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Still not sure why I'd pay when their competition offers the same thing for free. I don't see any moral or intrinsic issue to get all worked up about, but there's no way I'm spending money I shouldn't have to.
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I'll be buying the pass for $20, however, I understand that for many people that is too expensive. I still encourage as many of you as possible to band together and buy a pass to share for the weekend, if you can't afford the $20 alone.
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There is also the fact that most people CAN'T watch an entire week-end of SC2. Therefore, paying 20$ for the live content is retarded, when I would probably just be watching 3-4 hours of it live, anyway. I can't just stop to do everything and just watch SC2 a complete week-end just because it's MLG. I would like to, but I just can't. Therefore, 20$ is not worth it, at all, when I will have to rely on VOD anyway.
That's why, I think, that GSL is a better model. 20 hours of content is too much on a single week-end, for many.
Winter Arena on a month or two. One hour or two of content live content, 3 times a week... even PPV only, I would buy it instantly.
And it does feels more epic that way, too... it's like a long story. The hype is building up by itself during all the event...
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On February 15 2012 00:05 quantumslip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed do please quote the $150 million, because that seems to be an outlandish accusation to make without any context/basis.
Last I saw MLG doesn't make any money; they actually bleed it by the millions and need VC funds to stay afloat. This guy is just talking out of his ass.
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On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed
MLG hasn't made a single cent out of sc2 so far, I believe. You are deluded and/or ignorant
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I'd consider buying it if it was SC2 + LoL/DotA2, but only for SC2 ? No way, even for 10$.
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On February 15 2012 00:09 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed MLG hasn't made a single cent out of sc2 so far, I believe. You are deluded and/or ignorant
why would you think that?
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TIL, 38% of the SC2 community are Penny Pinchers
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While I would probably have bought a $20 dollar ticket just to support MLG, but Assembly is happening the same weekend, I just can't justify paying 20 or even 10 bucks for something that I probably won't watch in it's entirity.
So yes, I would encourage MLG to lower the price to ~$10 and if we're lucky, next time it won't overlap with any other events and I'll certainly purchase a ticket.
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On February 15 2012 00:13 TooL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:09 syllogism wrote:On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed MLG hasn't made a single cent out of sc2 so far, I believe. You are deluded and/or ignorant why would you think that?
Because Sundance managed to convince some people that MLG employees have put their lives on the line to promote and grow this scene. With comments like "We've put way more money than we made into these events". Which of course it is bullshit, since I'm pretty sure that MLG has had some financial backing (otherwise how would of they been able to prepay for the flights and accomodations already?) that is not a second mortgage on Sundance's house.
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On February 15 2012 00:13 TooL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:09 syllogism wrote:On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed MLG hasn't made a single cent out of sc2 so far, I believe. You are deluded and/or ignorant why would you think that?
Sundance literally tweeted last night " I and MLG have put more money into SCII than we have gotten out of it." Read that as you will, but that tells me MLG did not turn a profit in 2011
And to the person above me, ya Sundance did convince some people. We call those people INVESTORS, learn about the world please. You can have "financial backing" while bleeding money.
MLG Secures an Additional 10 Million in Financing
MLG Sucures 25 million from Oak Hill
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On February 15 2012 00:18 RajaF wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:13 TooL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:09 syllogism wrote:On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed MLG hasn't made a single cent out of sc2 so far, I believe. You are deluded and/or ignorant why would you think that? Because Sundance managed to convince some people that MLG employees have put their lives on the line to promote and grow this scene. With comments like "We've put way more money than we made into these events". Which of course it is bullshit, since I'm pretty sure that MLG has had some financial backing (otherwise how would of they been able to prepay for the flights and accomodations already?) that is not a second mortgage on Sundance's house.
It's completely different to say MLG hasn't made any money than to say their employees have not. They are of course being paid salaries, but even for the irrational company hating section of teamliquid that should be perfectly acceptable and even good.
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While I'll be paying for the Winter Arena I'm a gold member and I think it would make a lot of sense to offer a discount to Gold members.
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On February 15 2012 00:18 RajaF wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:13 TooL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:09 syllogism wrote:On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed MLG hasn't made a single cent out of sc2 so far, I believe. You are deluded and/or ignorant why would you think that? Because Sundance managed to convince some people that MLG employees have put their lives on the line to promote and grow this scene. With comments like "We've put way more money than we made into these events". Which of course it is bullshit, since I'm pretty sure that MLG has had some financial backing (otherwise how would of they been able to prepay for the flights and accomodations already?) that is not a second mortgage on Sundance's house.
Please explain how having financial backing means that MLG hasn't put more money into the events than they've made from them. The financial backing is the money they've put in.
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I pay for GSL because it gives me access to HQ vods. I cannot watch it live for the same reason I can never see weekend tourneys. I work 50 hours straight from Friday evening to Monday morning. I would be willing to pay maybe $5 for access to hq vods, and if it was $10 for the weekend with access to vods I would do it for the reasons listed by the OP, because I believe in supporting eSports. However I believe in getting what I pay for even more than supporting eSports, and the $20 price point is too high, vods or no vods.
The other thing that MLG is not considering is that because there is so much SC2 content out there, many more people are willing to watch VODs of an event. The idea of 'spoilers' is by and large only a concern of very few people (comparitively speaking) and most people would rather know which games they should spend their time watching, rather than watching all the games, potentially bad matches and all, and being surprised by the winner. I think that is where the saturation of the space has put us as viewers, we have to be picky - not just about which tournaments we are watching, but which matches within all the available tournaments we should spend our time watching.
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On February 15 2012 00:05 quantumslip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed do please quote the $150 million, because that seems to be an outlandish accusation to make without any context/basis.
http://www.fnatic.com/scene/6582/mlg-50-million-in-revenue-this-year.html
That was what I found. There was a video and I swear it was 150 million, but I cannot find it again. Either way 50 million is a large chunk of change. Let's say that each event costs 5 million to run (I think is costs MUCH less but htis is an example) that means in the end they profited 25 million. That is a lot of money left over. I understand having a buisness model, but if I myself were running MLG I'm sure I could find a way to pump quite a bit more back into these events and not charge viewers while still living way more than comfortable. I don't actually know what it takes to host/run one of these, I just think this new model is a greedy one.
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Quick note to everyone discussing whether or not MLG is profitable based on the things Sundance has said. I obviously don't know what MLG's books look like, but you can definitely turn a profit and still "put way more money than we made into these events." You do that be reinvesting your profit back into the company, in hopes, of course, that you improve it and make a bigger profit in the future. Very simple.
I'm not saying MLG is or isn't profitable, just that you can't determine its profitability based on what's been said.
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20$ is way too much. I paid 6$ or something for all of homestory cup and that's top notch.
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I don't really understand the logic behind this from MLG.
If you are going to be running advertisements you want as many viewers as possible and making it PPV is going directly against advertising revenue.
What they had last year was just about perfect, free low quality video and PPV for HD that way you get to have the cake and eat it too.
I might pay the $20 if I am going to be home for the weekend but this is a bad business model, it is not all sustainable with the SC2 demographics.
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On February 15 2012 00:29 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:05 quantumslip wrote:On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed do please quote the $150 million, because that seems to be an outlandish accusation to make without any context/basis. I don't actually know what it takes to host/run one of these, I just think this new model is a greedy one.
At least you admit that your argument is based entirely on an assumption that lacks any evidence.
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Good read Alex. I do not agree with the price tag for this event at all. 20$ isn't a lot of money for me, but its just the timing and the huge price tag compared to other product. Does MLG think they have such a superior product that it warrants the huge price tag ?
10$ would be ok I guess. I still think its kind of a dick move to announce the price 11 days before the event. And what about Gold members ? I'd feel ripped off.
The whole thing stinks, and it makes me question the loyalty I've had through 2011 with MLG. I would purchase the HQ ticket no mater how bad the event was. Now, my feelings about MLG is shifting. It feels like a money grab move, and I can't wrap my mind around what the business idea off this was \ is. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall during that board meeting.
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I agree that the price point is too high. Especially for introducing something this large of a scale to MLG (at least in my experience it's the first time) I feel that $20 is setting the bar too high. I understand that it's best to start high, then drop the price low because vice versa gets your very bad reactions, YET, as Alex stated this is a very understanding community, one that is willing to help out and pay dutiful amounts.
I feel a $10 price point would suffice, to start off with, but as this continues fluctuation of the prices is key.
If I understand correctly, this $20 pass is only for the weekend viewing? That is what I would pay if I were going to the actual event, not to stream it, in probably a lower quality due to the high traffic anyway. I have yet to pay for an event, but as Alex has asked us as a community to chip in, I was more than willing to consider this, I have been following MLG closely a lot lately and enjoyed it rather thoroughly, but $20 for about 2-3 days of content is a bit high. MLG, think small.
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Regarding Price Points:
The poll is a bit misleading, people will always opt for a lower pricepoint. The question is what is the sweetspot, is it 5$/10$/15$/20% there is little data to backup which is the best, so MLG is just testing the waters starting at 20$.
Regarding Business Model
I agree with the freemium model, most of all because it allows for growth. By completely locking down your content behind a paywall you are significantly stunting your growth potential as a business. Luckly MLG isn't the only player in the field (Dreamhack, IPL, GSL) and there is room for experimenting however giving a heads up (x months) to teams depending on exposure would be preferable (at least then they can then readjust expectations to sponsors)
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On February 15 2012 00:29 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:05 quantumslip wrote:On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed do please quote the $150 million, because that seems to be an outlandish accusation to make without any context/basis. http://www.fnatic.com/scene/6582/mlg-50-million-in-revenue-this-year.htmlThat was what I found. There was a video and I swear it was 150 million, but I cannot find it again. Either way 50 million is a large chunk of change. Let's say that each event costs 5 million to run (I think is costs MUCH less but htis is an example) that means in the end they profited 25 million. That is a lot of money left over. I understand having a buisness model, but if I myself were running MLG I'm sure I could find a way to pump quite a bit more back into these events and not charge viewers while still living way more than comfortable. I don't actually know what it takes to host/run one of these, I just think this new model is a greedy one.
ok hosting an event in NYC is just weird, it is easily one of the most expensive places in the US.
You are better off doing this in Atlantic city or something. I mean AC is easily accessible to most of the people in NY, NJ and Phili.
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On February 15 2012 00:33 IcariumJhag wrote:
I don't really understand the logic behind this from MLG.
If you are going to be running advertisements you want as many viewers as possible and making it PPV is going directly against advertising revenue.
What they had last year was just about perfect, free low quality video and PPV for HD that way you get to have the cake and eat it too.
I might pay the $20 if I am going to be home for the weekend but this is a bad business model, it is not all sustainable with the SC2 demographics.
It's really simple logic. The advertising model isn't generating enough revenue to provide them profit, so they're switching to PPV. The PPV model assumes that they'll get less viewers in exchange for increased revenue per viewer.
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On February 15 2012 00:36 NLBrowncoat wrote:
Regarding Price Points:
The poll is a bit misleading, people will always opt for a lower pricepoint. The question is what is the sweetspot, is it 5$/10$/15$/20% there is little data to backup which is the best, so MLG is just testing the waters starting at 20$.
Regarding Business Model
I agree with the freemium model, most of all because it allows for growth. By completely locking down your content behind a paywall you are significantly stunting your growth potential as a business. Luckly MLG isn't the only player in the field (Dreamhack, IPL, GSL) and there is room for experimenting however giving a heads up (x months) to teams depending on exposure would be preferable (at least then they can then readjust expectations to sponsors)
They're not completely locking down their content. The Championship events (which are the main and most important events MLG runs) will still be free LQ.
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I would be less annoyed at the entire situation if MLG hadn't waited until now to announce this. If they had announced the Arenas as PPV events when they were first announced, I imagine this would have gone over better. (And yes, a slightly lower price point).
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I'm not sure that everyone with a gold membership understands that they are still getting the 4 pro circuit events this year, and therefore not missing out on anything that they were expecting. The winter arena is like adding shrimp to your steak at outback; it's a bit overpriced, but not necessary. you're still getting a pretty good steak without the addons.
i agree that gold membership should have a few more perks, like a flat 25-50% discount on additional content provided my MLG throughout the year, such as this winter arena. it just kind of ties everything together in a neat little bundle.
the price point is defnitely high. i can get GSL for a month for ~$20. this is just one weekend. i'll pay it, because MLG has been good to me in the past, and i'm loyal to those esports businesses that are still trying to figure out how to make an honest buck. but i won't be purchasing another arena pass at that price point, or either without a discount for my gold membership.
everyone can get outraged at MLG trying to make money if they like. obviously this isn't going over well, and i wouldn't be surprised to see MLG doing a little backpedalling today or tomorrow. but the unwarranted vitriol is simply astounding. for the most "mannered" gaming community, there sure are a lot of immature posts regarding this issue. MLG, and the other esports based companies out there, are all trying to find ways to monetize the games. that's what needs to happen to keep this passionate hobby alive for all of us, and a potential career for the most talented or driven of us. without being able to make a living off of this endeavor, the companies providing us fans with all this content will dry up and fade away.
Thanks Alex for the reasonable post made. I'm just a fan, and no one's going to see a post by "Essobee", and think, yeah, that guy carries a lot of weight in the community, let's stop to hear what he has to say. So hearing someone that carries some "weight" in the community voicing many of the same thought out, reasonable opinions that i share is good to see.
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On February 15 2012 00:29 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:05 quantumslip wrote:On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed do please quote the $150 million, because that seems to be an outlandish accusation to make without any context/basis. http://www.fnatic.com/scene/6582/mlg-50-million-in-revenue-this-year.htmlThat was what I found. There was a video and I swear it was 150 million, but I cannot find it again. Either way 50 million is a large chunk of change. Let's say that each event costs 5 million to run (I think is costs MUCH less but htis is an example) that means in the end they profited 25 million. That is a lot of money left over. I understand having a buisness model, but if I myself were running MLG I'm sure I could find a way to pump quite a bit more back into these events and not charge viewers while still living way more than comfortable. I don't actually know what it takes to host/run one of these, I just think this new model is a greedy one.
Revenue is how much they made BEFORE factoring in expenses.
The number that's relevant is profits. MLG didn't make a profit, because their expenses were greater than $50 million.
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That's also from 2009 and what is relevant is their sc2 side
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On February 15 2012 00:24 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:18 RajaF wrote:On February 15 2012 00:13 TooL wrote:On February 15 2012 00:09 syllogism wrote:On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed MLG hasn't made a single cent out of sc2 so far, I believe. You are deluded and/or ignorant why would you think that? Because Sundance managed to convince some people that MLG employees have put their lives on the line to promote and grow this scene. With comments like "We've put way more money than we made into these events". Which of course it is bullshit, since I'm pretty sure that MLG has had some financial backing (otherwise how would of they been able to prepay for the flights and accomodations already?) that is not a second mortgage on Sundance's house. Please explain how having financial backing means that MLG hasn't put more money into the events than they've made from them. The financial backing is the money they've put in.
It means that SUNDANCE has not put more money into this than he has made. Which is the claim that he made, not me. I don't know if MLG as a company is making money or not. Although (according to that 2009 article) they made 50 million in revenue. Please explain how they spent 50 MILLION dollars on their events in 2010 and more than that in 2011.
Because if it is true that they spend that much and more on these tourneys (which pay almost nothing in prizes) then they are doing it wrong and deserve to go broke.
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People qualify to the championship events from the arena, so the arena is part of the league. I would expect to get access to it with a season pass, otherwise I CBA to watch live and might just look over some vods or replays later. Pirated of course.
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On February 15 2012 00:48 SugarBear wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:29 NoobSkills wrote:On February 15 2012 00:05 quantumslip wrote:On February 15 2012 00:01 NoobSkills wrote:
The Free Model works for the NFL. Sundance is Scrooge minus the revalation at the end of the story.
Wasn't Sundance on a talk show boasting that MLG alone is a 150 million dollar buisness each year? Holding only what 5 events (i think) last year. They are just trying to make money and I won't give them a dime. I don't like paying for the GSL either, but they keep advertising simple and reasonable. During the cast the sponsors are given a few shoutouts, but nothing crazy and when watching a vod there is a simple 15(ish) second commercial that doesn't have the volume boosted so fucking loud that I have to mute my speakers. If teams were getting more of the money and the prize pools were much larger at MLG events I could perhaps justify paying for this, but when you brag about making 150 million, but have a low payout for every event except the final, charge the customer for a stream, and have generally less content per dollar when compared to the rest of the organizations I can't support you.
MLG - Major League Greed do please quote the $150 million, because that seems to be an outlandish accusation to make without any context/basis. http://www.fnatic.com/scene/6582/mlg-50-million-in-revenue-this-year.htmlThat was what I found. There was a video and I swear it was 150 million, but I cannot find it again. Either way 50 million is a large chunk of change. Let's say that each event costs 5 million to run (I think is costs MUCH less but htis is an example) that means in the end they profited 25 million. That is a lot of money left over. I understand having a buisness model, but if I myself were running MLG I'm sure I could find a way to pump quite a bit more back into these events and not charge viewers while still living way more than comfortable. I don't actually know what it takes to host/run one of these, I just think this new model is a greedy one. Revenue is how much they made BEFORE factoring in expenses. The number that's relevant is profits. MLG didn't make a profit, because their expenses were greater than $50 million.
Did you not read my post? I factored in my belief on what remaining profit would be. My belief is bullshit to be Frank. It could cost them 15 million dollars per event each year meaning they spent 75 million while only pulling in 50. My point is that if they want to run a model like this I want them to show they're in the red. I want to see sundance driving a beater and sharing an 2 bedroom appartment with 3 peple. Now even beyond that I wouldn't give them a dollar for their event because in comparison (free events or GSL) every other event has better content per dollar.
On February 15 2012 00:50 syllogism wrote:
That's also from 2009 and what is relevant is their sc2 side
Very true, but remember when you purchased a pass last season you got HD stream of every game. I'm not looking at it from just a SC2 and how profitable it is for MLG standpoint. I have an issue with them charing money period unless they can prove they need it. And then at that note if they are in need of money that means they're spending their moeny poorly as well.
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On February 15 2012 00:48 Essobee wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone with a gold membership understands that they are still getting the 4 pro circuit events this year, and therefore not missing out on anything that they were expecting. The winter arena is like adding shrimp to your steak at outback; it's a bit overpriced, but not necessary. you're still getting a pretty good steak without the addons.
Uhm, it's quite reasonable to believe that something advertised as Pro Circuit Arena would actually be included in your ticket that would cover all Pro Circuit events this year.
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It pains me... I would so pay for it, but my parents are against me paying anything more for starcraft other than the game. Sigh, I really don't wanna miss MLG... They are gonna have far better players than Assembly.
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Kind of disappointed that a lot of people wouldn't be willing to pay 10 dollars or less for a service. If I could spare 20 dollars for a weekend to watch it, I most certainly would, but I would agree that what was given in that package, 10 or 15 would be more appropriate.
Hopefully some of us would be able to understand that if we want to keep growing it, the money has to generate somewhere especially if we want the quality to go up, which it has been since the dawn of SC2 in MLG. I don't necessarily agree with the model that they're doing either, but we will see how it goes. I'm hoping there is a connection and understanding that both parties can get from it at the end.
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On February 15 2012 00:55 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:48 Essobee wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone with a gold membership understands that they are still getting the 4 pro circuit events this year, and therefore not missing out on anything that they were expecting. The winter arena is like adding shrimp to your steak at outback; it's a bit overpriced, but not necessary. you're still getting a pretty good steak without the addons.
Uhm, it's quite reasonable to believe that something advertised as Pro Circuit Arena would actually be included in your ticket that would cover all Pro Circuit events this year.
You can't expect something that didn't even exist by the time of purchase.
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On February 15 2012 00:56 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
It pains me... I would so pay for it, but my parents are against me paying anything more for starcraft other than the game. Sigh, I really don't wanna miss MLG... They are gonna have far better players than Assembly.
My parents when I was younger thought the same way. I got a job. 4 hours of minimum wage pages for a weekend of footage even though in my opinion it isn't worth it.
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On February 15 2012 00:57 Soap wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:55 Longshank wrote:On February 15 2012 00:48 Essobee wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone with a gold membership understands that they are still getting the 4 pro circuit events this year, and therefore not missing out on anything that they were expecting. The winter arena is like adding shrimp to your steak at outback; it's a bit overpriced, but not necessary. you're still getting a pretty good steak without the addons.
Uhm, it's quite reasonable to believe that something advertised as Pro Circuit Arena would actually be included in your ticket that would cover all Pro Circuit events this year. You can't expect something that didn't even exist by the time of purchase.
The Pro Circuit existed. The Gold membership we promised to cover all Pro Circuit events.
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From a student perspective the price is indeed too high. Maybe having a per-game payment option would help bring in those who only want to see a few games (for me I would only watch from the semi-finals to the end because I simply do not have the time to watch every single game due to my school work). 5$/game would seem fine for me, that way those who only want to watch the finals can without having to shell out 20$ and it also offers the 20$/weekend deal as a discount.
''5$/game OR 20$ for the entire weekend'' would bring more viewers than just the 20$/weekend deal.
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Nice post. Very diplomatic but critical at the same time.
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I agree completely with the OP.
One thing I'll add on is that comparing an MLG tournament which lasts a weekend and comparing that to the month long GSL seasons is a little unfair. GSL seasons only have a few matches per day, whereas the MLG event will be many hours of content each day of the weekend. You should be comparing price per hour, rather than price per day.
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There should be a voting option for people who think the PPV option is complete BS. Internet entrepreneurs have proven time and time again that you can make boatloads of money using a freemium model. If MLG wants to suddenly make a switch to a dinosaur PPV model which goes from freemium to ultra-prremium, then there is no way I will be watching an MLG event ever again. That's all I can say really. Freemium is a good compromise between treating the fans good, and lining the pockets of the businesspeople. Maybe I'm stubborn, but I'm only as stubborn as a CEO who only wants to support an expensive PPV model.
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I know I've said this elsewhere, but:
I cannot and will not support a business model that intentionally limits the amount of viewers of SC2. I will not. I won't crucify Sundance for having an idea, and I won't crucify him for needing to do something and trying something.
But this model to me, is the absolute opposite direction that esports should be trying to go in. I want growth. i want new people. I want as many viewers as humanly possible. Taking the current fans and forcing them into a hard choice that will realistically DROP viewers and alienate them is not my idea of growth. Sure it might help MLGs profit margin. Sure it might help MLG make more tournaments. But there are other ways to do that than bastardizing the community in what possibly will shoot the growth of SC2 in the head.
It has nothing to do with price. It has nothing to do with not thinking MLG sets the bar high enough to warrant asking for money for a stream.
Creating an all or nothing, PPV system shits on Starcraft and it's growth (in terms of fans). It's that simple.
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On February 15 2012 00:55 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:48 Essobee wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone with a gold membership understands that they are still getting the 4 pro circuit events this year, and therefore not missing out on anything that they were expecting. The winter arena is like adding shrimp to your steak at outback; it's a bit overpriced, but not necessary. you're still getting a pretty good steak without the addons.
Uhm, it's quite reasonable to believe that something advertised as Pro Circuit Arena would actually be included in your ticket that would cover all Pro Circuit events this year.
thanks for your quite helpful response.
the point is that the gold membership holders aren't losing out on anything they were promised. this winter arena is content that is additional, and technically any type of membership that was previously purchased, doesn't include this type of content.
do i think a membership should warrant a discount of events of these types? yes. do i think the price point is too high for an event of this type? yes. but i wasn't promised anything like arena events included with my membership, so i think it pertinent to remind people of this fact.
MLG has been good in the past about changing their stances on things that evoke so much ire in the community (like this). I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in the price point, or a free low quality stream to be added. it's obvious that they're fumbling through this thing, trying to find a fair way (to themselves and the community) to provide quality content while maintaining some kind of business model.
make your opinions on the matter heard guys, but keep in mind that MLG has been pretty fair with us in the past, and they deserve a little more respect and patience from us in the community while they try and figure this uncharted territory out. rather than posting rude or immature posts to MLG, or even Sundance himself, speak out on forums like these, and ultimately speak with your wallet. to have some in the community threaten to boycott MLG entirely, or even threaten to "skull fuck" Sundance personally, really puts a black eye one the community as a whole. even if those people are the vocal minority.
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On February 15 2012 01:08 JDub wrote:
I agree completely with the OP.
One thing I'll add on is that comparing an MLG tournament which lasts a weekend and comparing that to the month long GSL seasons is a little unfair. GSL seasons only have a few matches per day, whereas the MLG event will be many hours of content each day of the weekend. You should be comparing price per hour, rather than price per day.
Free event's price per game: Undetermined
GSL $15 gets you: Code A and Code S
MLG $20 gets you: One weekend, far fewer matches, and far fewer quality players.
Compare the cost per game much higher for a much weaker product.
This is an aside from my thought that I don't think they really need our money anyways, just our eyes.
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On February 15 2012 01:08 Angel_ wrote:
I know I've said this elsewhere, but:
I cannot and will not support a business model that intentionally limits the amount of viewers of SC2. I will not. I won't crucify Sundance for having an idea, and I won't crucify him for needing to do something and trying something.
But this model to me, is the absolute opposite direction that esports should be trying to go in. I want growth. i want new people. I want as many viewers as humanly possible. Taking the current fans and forcing them into a hard choice that will realistically DROP viewers and alienate them is not my idea of growth. Sure it might help MLGs profit margin. Sure it might help MLG make more tournaments. But there are other ways to do that than bastardizing the community in what possibly will shoot the growth of SC2 in the head.
It has nothing to do with price. It has nothing to do with not thinking MLG sets the bar high enough to warrant asking for money for a stream.
Creating an all or nothing, PPV system shits on Starcraft and it's growth (in terms of fans). It's that simple.
Problem is, at least for SC2 imo, the amount of people tuning into live events is correlated with how many people actually play the game. Less people are playing SC2 at the moment, could possibly see more when HOTS comes out, but at the moment you can't really expect much "growth" when the game has lost most of it's casual fan base (ie. where most gaming/media companies make their money from). Esports isn't like TV wherein you're just flipping channels and happen to land on a channel that shows esports for you to go "oh hey thats kinda cool" and become. It's very niche, at least in most parts of the world.
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Too bad that they are charging so much for a weekend tournament. I don't know why all the tournaments are suddenly creating these huge price jumps or adding costs where costs didn't previously exist. I mean I understand them needing to make money but I gotta think that SC2 becoming cost prohibitive to spectate is going to hurt it's growth.
Stepping outside of the hardcore viewership (which only a fraction of is willing to pay this much for a weekend tournament it seems) there's no way they're going to draw in new viewers if it's that expensive for such a small amount of content because in all honesty most people outside of the SC2 scene would rather spend that $20 on the very things that Sundance compared the cost of the tournament to in his post (i.e. a round of drinks or a night at the movies).
I dunno, just my thoughts. I won't be purchasing a ticket for this tournament though and I'll definitely send them my feedback as well.
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Dear MLG
Your format sucks. Nobody wants to spend an entire weekend watching 20 hours of tournament. Paying $20 to sit in my computer chair for 20 hours, wasting my weekend, and having to put up with around half the actual broadcast being the crowd waving signs does not sound like a good deal. The qualifiers, nightly for ~2 hours is the subscription I would pay monthly not the current marathon that taxes your company(that weekend), taxes the fans(having to sit glued to the content they are paying for) and taxes the players(having to sit in a venue for days, flying across the world, having to play X amount of important matches back to back). Why make it difficult when all we really want is a nice steady content stream that is well done that could have a huge "wrap up" marathon in December to end it all off? Take a page from the GSL and end these crappy marathons while at the same time improving the over all experience for the viewers.
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On February 15 2012 01:10 Essobee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:55 Longshank wrote:On February 15 2012 00:48 Essobee wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone with a gold membership understands that they are still getting the 4 pro circuit events this year, and therefore not missing out on anything that they were expecting. The winter arena is like adding shrimp to your steak at outback; it's a bit overpriced, but not necessary. you're still getting a pretty good steak without the addons.
Uhm, it's quite reasonable to believe that something advertised as Pro Circuit Arena would actually be included in your ticket that would cover all Pro Circuit events this year. thanks for your quite helpful response. the point is that the gold membership holders aren't losing out on anything they were promised. this winter arena is content that is additional, and technically any type of membership that was previously purchased, doesn't include this type of content. do i think a membership should warrant a discount of events of these types? yes. do i think the price point is too high for an event of this type? yes. but i wasn't promised anything like arena events included with my membership, so i think it pertinent to remind people of this fact. MLG has been good in the past about changing their stances on things that evoke so much ire in the community (like this). I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in the price point, or a free low quality stream to be added. it's obvious that they're fumbling through this thing, trying to find a fair way (to themselves and the community) to provide quality content while maintaining some kind of business model. make your opinions on the matter heard guys, but keep in mind that MLG has been pretty fair with us in the past, and they deserve a little more respect and patience from us in the community while they try and figure this uncharted territory out. rather than posting rude or immature posts to MLG, or even Sundance himself, speak out on forums like these, and ultimately speak with your wallet. to have some in the community threaten to boycott MLG entirely, or even threaten to "skull fuck" Sundance personally, really puts a black eye one the community as a whole. even if those people are the vocal minority.
The bottom line is that MLG advertised this gold membership as giving access to all of their "MLG Pro Circuit" content and this is the "MLG Pro Circuit: Winter Arena." If you were paying to watch the MLG Pro Circuit, wouldn't you expect that it would be covered?
I just don't understand what there is to disagree about on this one. MLG either fucked up on accident and I hope they will realize it and correct it in time, or they're trying to manipulate people. Right now I assume it's the former
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I have no problem with PPV per se .... Here's my problem the latter half of the year when i was watching the streams it seemed like there was around 150k views at times. So lets say they lose 1/3rd of their viewership cuz of the PPV so 100k Viewers @ $20 is 2mil ..... not saying they're going to make that much but it's a potential reachable number. So they're going to make a shit ton of money regardless if some people opt out of PPV, now back to my problem ... with potential $2,000,000 for a closed door tournament with no moving equipment into stadiums and very little overheard as far as logistics go your telling me you can't spare more than $26,000 TOTAL prize pool for the players. That to me is the disgusting part out of all this, MLG exists because of the players. MLG needs the players to survive, the players don't need MLG and yet the mlg prize pools are always pretty pathetic.
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On February 15 2012 01:10 Essobee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 00:55 Longshank wrote:On February 15 2012 00:48 Essobee wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone with a gold membership understands that they are still getting the 4 pro circuit events this year, and therefore not missing out on anything that they were expecting. The winter arena is like adding shrimp to your steak at outback; it's a bit overpriced, but not necessary. you're still getting a pretty good steak without the addons.
Uhm, it's quite reasonable to believe that something advertised as Pro Circuit Arena would actually be included in your ticket that would cover all Pro Circuit events this year. thanks for your quite helpful response. the point is that the gold membership holders aren't losing out on anything they were promised. this winter arena is content that is additional, and technically any type of membership that was previously purchased, doesn't include this type of content. do i think a membership should warrant a discount of events of these types? yes. do i think the price point is too high for an event of this type? yes. but i wasn't promised anything like arena events included with my membership, so i think it pertinent to remind people of this fact. MLG has been good in the past about changing their stances on things that evoke so much ire in the community (like this). I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in the price point, or a free low quality stream to be added. it's obvious that they're fumbling through this thing, trying to find a fair way (to themselves and the community) to provide quality content while maintaining some kind of business model. make your opinions on the matter heard guys, but keep in mind that MLG has been pretty fair with us in the past, and they deserve a little more respect and patience from us in the community while they try and figure this uncharted territory out. rather than posting rude or immature posts to MLG, or even Sundance himself, speak out on forums like these, and ultimately speak with your wallet. to have some in the community threaten to boycott MLG entirely, or even threaten to "skull fuck" Sundance personally, really puts a black eye one the community as a whole. even if those people are the vocal minority.
Let me get this straight. MLG changed their Pro Circuit into something I didn't pay for with my gold membership. I can argue: I thought there were 6 live events, in 2012 there are only 4. That may sound like splitting hairs.
What if they made all of their events "arenas" and had only one live championship, like last year's Providence? There's nothing stopping them from doing that, and charging $$ for esports. Whoops, I guess I only paid for one event. Too bad my membership is canceled by the end of the year anyway. I don't know why you don't see a problem with "re-classifying" something so you can charge people who thought they'd already paid.
I'm sad if MLG is not breaking even financially, I'd rather they are successful. However, I'm not going to pay them $20 for something I thought I already did and is overpriced anyway. I don't have that kind of money right now, and if I did, Gom would get it first.
I also canceled my pitchfork pre-order.
Edit: changed "tournament" to "pro circuit"
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It should look like this:
You create an account on MLG's site (pretty much like on GSL's) in order to use their services.
In your profile, you have a list of all the events that occurred or are just about to.
By accessing each one of them, you're able to browse through all the content available: VODs, replays, shows, etc.
When accessing THE UPCOMING EVENT (Winter Arena 2012 this time), you're presented with a flexible, modular model, which means each feature has a price and you can choose and combine them to whatever plan suits you, for example:
[x] main stream(s): $5
[ ] additional streams (separately chosen): $2 each
[ ] immediate VOD access: $3
[x] HD: $3 (maybe for each stream separately)
etc.
Same for each game. You pick, you pay, here you go.
This, of course, is a subject to change / develop with time, but the more flexibility, the more choice given to people, the better. Also, with this strategy, MLG would have to make sure every feature is actually cool enough to pay for.
Payment methods: PayPal, Visa / MasterCard and everything else that grants you immediate access (because you can extend your previously chosen plan with anything just like that anytime up until the event ends).
In my case: I don't need more than 480p (slow connection I can't help) and I don't need more than two main streams (that's maximum I can watch simultaneously; 3x 360p is an option too - 5 streams are just impossible). I never have time to go back and watch VODs, I'm also not 15 anymore to be able to sit all weekend and watch stuff. I have a newborn, lots of work, sometimes I just need to drive somewhere ad hoc - buying a full package for $20 wouldn't make sense in my case. Not only I wouldn't be physically able to take advantage of what they have to offer, I also just don't have time for all that. So I'd love to pay for 2 main low quality streams 'cause that's what I could possibly enjoy to high extent.
Right now it's like I have to get a Ferrari Enzo or no car at all. It's even worse than that. I'd end up paying for the Ferrari but due to my technical and personal limitations, that weekend I'll in fact drive a Prius at best. I'm basically told "we don't care you won't be able to enjoy everything we produce - you have to pay just 'cause we're doing it". That's not how markets of all kinds work and that's for a reason. Even though 1 dollar = 3.5x my currency (and it's even worse in other post-soviet countries - and I wouldn't say "we don't care" to this target, same for the youngest audience - very risky, inaccessible and kind of ignorant), I can easily afford $20, but that doesn't justify forcing me to get something I don't need / won't ever be able to consume.
So I could pay - let's say - $7 right away for what I need. Maybe add something on the fly if they tease me well enough ("Idra vs Boxer showmatch on our 4th stream!"). Instead, I won't pay anything 'cause it's unfair treatment.
Now multiply that $7 or $5 by the amount of people whose specific needs and capabilities have been ignored, who - for whatever reasons - won't be able to use or don't need some features. That's the amount of money MLG will NOT EARN this season.
It's not what the Internet's been always about.
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I caved this year and got gold, I don't see why I should have to get gold AND pay again to see starcraft...
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One issue that's occurred to me with the PPV model in SC2 is simply that I don't need to pay in order to enjoy starcraft. When it comes to something like UFC, PPV works because there's no way I can replicate what is going on on the screen - that event is the only place to get my fix. But when something like MLG comes along and says SC2 is now PPV, I can just say screw it. I'll just go play myself. Most of the people who watch the streams are players themselves, and as such they don't RELY on MLG or anyone else for their enjoyment of the game. It may augment it, but they have other options. So instead of paying money to enjoy a game I've already duly paid for, I'll just go play it myself.
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What I feel is dangerous with PPV is that it doesn't bring new people to the streams and kinda makes some of the fans back off and watch something else. I think it's way to soon. MLG used to be special in many good ways, and if I were to show a friend a tournament I would pick MLG. But from what I have seen so far I can only say that I think they are moving in the opposite direction from what I like and believe in. The casting of replays in the qualifiers for an example, not a huge deal but still I preferred it as it was before with live matches. Maybe I would have been more optimistic about the qualifiers if they had been broadcasted in their respective timezones most suitable time. Both of these things and the fact that they charge too much for the next tournament really worries me.
I must say I was very optimistic at first with the qualifiers, as I felt it would increase the skill level of the players in the actual tournament. I felt that some players got seeded into groups when they really didn't deserve it before. But I'm curious in what way MLG wants to profile itself, this change sends very bad signals to be honest, even though it's maybe only a test.
One last thing I would like to say is that I totally support the paid trips for players, I'd rather see that in the future so more pros were able to go to events. Personally I don't care about prize money that much I rather look at the names of the players participating. To spread out the money between the players is an idea I absolutely think is the future if we want to sustain the scene.
These are just my opinions about the PPV and MLG in general.
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On February 15 2012 01:21 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:10 Essobee wrote:On February 15 2012 00:55 Longshank wrote:On February 15 2012 00:48 Essobee wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone with a gold membership understands that they are still getting the 4 pro circuit events this year, and therefore not missing out on anything that they were expecting. The winter arena is like adding shrimp to your steak at outback; it's a bit overpriced, but not necessary. you're still getting a pretty good steak without the addons.
Uhm, it's quite reasonable to believe that something advertised as Pro Circuit Arena would actually be included in your ticket that would cover all Pro Circuit events this year. thanks for your quite helpful response. the point is that the gold membership holders aren't losing out on anything they were promised. this winter arena is content that is additional, and technically any type of membership that was previously purchased, doesn't include this type of content. do i think a membership should warrant a discount of events of these types? yes. do i think the price point is too high for an event of this type? yes. but i wasn't promised anything like arena events included with my membership, so i think it pertinent to remind people of this fact. MLG has been good in the past about changing their stances on things that evoke so much ire in the community (like this). I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in the price point, or a free low quality stream to be added. it's obvious that they're fumbling through this thing, trying to find a fair way (to themselves and the community) to provide quality content while maintaining some kind of business model. make your opinions on the matter heard guys, but keep in mind that MLG has been pretty fair with us in the past, and they deserve a little more respect and patience from us in the community while they try and figure this uncharted territory out. rather than posting rude or immature posts to MLG, or even Sundance himself, speak out on forums like these, and ultimately speak with your wallet. to have some in the community threaten to boycott MLG entirely, or even threaten to "skull fuck" Sundance personally, really puts a black eye one the community as a whole. even if those people are the vocal minority. The bottom line is that MLG advertised this gold membership as giving access to all of their "MLG Pro Circuit" content and this is the "MLG Pro Circuit: Winter Arena." If you were paying to watch the MLG Pro Circuit, wouldn't you expect that it would be covered? I just don't understand what there is to disagree about on this one. MLG either fucked up on accident and I hope they will realize it and correct it in time, or they're trying to manipulate people. Right now I assume it's the former
did a quick search, and i don't see anywhere official where the MLG Winter Arena is listed in the pro circuit. as far as i can tell, it is a separate entity entirely from the Pro Circuit. There are no points awarded towards this season. the only correlation i can find, is using the previous season's points for seeding. would be happy to discuss the bungled advertisement of the winter arena as a pro circuit event if you can find it
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On February 15 2012 01:14 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:08 Angel_ wrote:
I know I've said this elsewhere, but:
I cannot and will not support a business model that intentionally limits the amount of viewers of SC2. I will not. I won't crucify Sundance for having an idea, and I won't crucify him for needing to do something and trying something.
But this model to me, is the absolute opposite direction that esports should be trying to go in. I want growth. i want new people. I want as many viewers as humanly possible. Taking the current fans and forcing them into a hard choice that will realistically DROP viewers and alienate them is not my idea of growth. Sure it might help MLGs profit margin. Sure it might help MLG make more tournaments. But there are other ways to do that than bastardizing the community in what possibly will shoot the growth of SC2 in the head.
It has nothing to do with price. It has nothing to do with not thinking MLG sets the bar high enough to warrant asking for money for a stream.
Creating an all or nothing, PPV system shits on Starcraft and it's growth (in terms of fans). It's that simple. Problem is, at least for SC2 imo, the amount of people tuning into live events is correlated with how many people actually play the game. Less people are playing SC2 at the moment, could possibly see more when HOTS comes out, but at the moment you can't really expect much "growth" when the game has lost most of it's casual fan base (ie. where most gaming/media companies make their money from). Esports isn't like TV wherein you're just flipping channels and happen to land on a channel that shows esports for you to go "oh hey thats kinda cool" and become. It's very niche, at least in most parts of the world.
The attempt to get your eyes in order to appease sponsors is relative in both of these products.
MLG spends consdierably less per event when compared to House.
MLG gets 250k viewers House gets 3 million.
In each scenario the sponsors get what they pay for their product running through the minds of their veiwers.
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maybe people should try and find friends who like sc2 and split the cost? My friend has a nice home theatre and I wouldn't mind splitting 20$ 4 ways between me and my sc2 buddies.
I agree the price is too steep for one person, but split amongst friends on a TV isn't a bad deal, especially if there is a barcraft you guys can go to.
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On February 15 2012 01:27 Essobee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:21 Vul wrote:On February 15 2012 01:10 Essobee wrote:On February 15 2012 00:55 Longshank wrote:On February 15 2012 00:48 Essobee wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone with a gold membership understands that they are still getting the 4 pro circuit events this year, and therefore not missing out on anything that they were expecting. The winter arena is like adding shrimp to your steak at outback; it's a bit overpriced, but not necessary. you're still getting a pretty good steak without the addons.
Uhm, it's quite reasonable to believe that something advertised as Pro Circuit Arena would actually be included in your ticket that would cover all Pro Circuit events this year. thanks for your quite helpful response. the point is that the gold membership holders aren't losing out on anything they were promised. this winter arena is content that is additional, and technically any type of membership that was previously purchased, doesn't include this type of content. do i think a membership should warrant a discount of events of these types? yes. do i think the price point is too high for an event of this type? yes. but i wasn't promised anything like arena events included with my membership, so i think it pertinent to remind people of this fact. MLG has been good in the past about changing their stances on things that evoke so much ire in the community (like this). I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in the price point, or a free low quality stream to be added. it's obvious that they're fumbling through this thing, trying to find a fair way (to themselves and the community) to provide quality content while maintaining some kind of business model. make your opinions on the matter heard guys, but keep in mind that MLG has been pretty fair with us in the past, and they deserve a little more respect and patience from us in the community while they try and figure this uncharted territory out. rather than posting rude or immature posts to MLG, or even Sundance himself, speak out on forums like these, and ultimately speak with your wallet. to have some in the community threaten to boycott MLG entirely, or even threaten to "skull fuck" Sundance personally, really puts a black eye one the community as a whole. even if those people are the vocal minority. The bottom line is that MLG advertised this gold membership as giving access to all of their "MLG Pro Circuit" content and this is the "MLG Pro Circuit: Winter Arena." If you were paying to watch the MLG Pro Circuit, wouldn't you expect that it would be covered? I just don't understand what there is to disagree about on this one. MLG either fucked up on accident and I hope they will realize it and correct it in time, or they're trying to manipulate people. Right now I assume it's the former did a quick search, and i don't see anywhere official where the MLG Winter Arena is listed in the pro circuit. as far as i can tell, it is a separate entity entirely from the Pro Circuit. There are no points awarded towards this season. the only correlation i can find, is using the previous season's points for seeding. would be happy to discuss the bungled advertisement of the winter arena as a pro circuit event if you can find it
Look on page 6, Virgil's post at the bottom.
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Current business model of MLG seems incompetent and rushed to me.
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On February 15 2012 01:23 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:10 Essobee wrote:On February 15 2012 00:55 Longshank wrote:On February 15 2012 00:48 Essobee wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone with a gold membership understands that they are still getting the 4 pro circuit events this year, and therefore not missing out on anything that they were expecting. The winter arena is like adding shrimp to your steak at outback; it's a bit overpriced, but not necessary. you're still getting a pretty good steak without the addons.
Uhm, it's quite reasonable to believe that something advertised as Pro Circuit Arena would actually be included in your ticket that would cover all Pro Circuit events this year. thanks for your quite helpful response. the point is that the gold membership holders aren't losing out on anything they were promised. this winter arena is content that is additional, and technically any type of membership that was previously purchased, doesn't include this type of content. do i think a membership should warrant a discount of events of these types? yes. do i think the price point is too high for an event of this type? yes. but i wasn't promised anything like arena events included with my membership, so i think it pertinent to remind people of this fact. MLG has been good in the past about changing their stances on things that evoke so much ire in the community (like this). I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in the price point, or a free low quality stream to be added. it's obvious that they're fumbling through this thing, trying to find a fair way (to themselves and the community) to provide quality content while maintaining some kind of business model. make your opinions on the matter heard guys, but keep in mind that MLG has been pretty fair with us in the past, and they deserve a little more respect and patience from us in the community while they try and figure this uncharted territory out. rather than posting rude or immature posts to MLG, or even Sundance himself, speak out on forums like these, and ultimately speak with your wallet. to have some in the community threaten to boycott MLG entirely, or even threaten to "skull fuck" Sundance personally, really puts a black eye one the community as a whole. even if those people are the vocal minority. Let me get this straight. MLG changed their tournament into something I didn't pay for with my gold membership. I can argue: I thought there were 6 live events, in 2012 there are only 4. That may sound like splitting hairs. What if they made all of their events "arenas" and had only one live championship, like last year's Providence? There's nothing stopping them from doing that, and charging $$ for esports. Whoops, I guess I only paid for one event. Too bad my membership is canceled by the end of the year anyway. I don't know why you don't see a problem with "re-classifying" something so you can charge people who thought they'd already paid. I'm sad if MLG is not breaking even financially, I'd rather they are successful. However, I'm not going to pay them $20 for something I thought I already did and is overpriced anyway. I don't have that kind of money right now, and if I did, Gom would get it first. I also canceled my pitchfork pre-order.
yep, that's entirely possible. i agree that would be a terrible idea, and would then make my voice heard on forums like these, and also by cancelling my sub to gold.
i'm not defending MLG's decision to create a weekend event at this price, and i also am not happy about the loss of 33% of last year's pro circuit events. on the flip side though, if they continue to provide the amount of coverage throughout the year that has been provided so far in the Winter Championship qualifiers, leading up to the Championship itself in Columbus, I personally, will be maintaining my sub to gold.
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I am a gold MLG Gold Member now going on 2 years... Its really hard when i think about three things...
1.... i pay $30 per year for all the championship events, which was 6 last year... It willbe 4 this year, which i am ok with...
2.... i do not want to pay per event, i want to pay per year, why can i not just upgrade my gold membership?
3.... why would i pay $20 for a non championship event, when i only pay $30 for 4 championship events?
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go to barcraft, problem solved?
my only problem with MLG is I hate how they try to cram everything into one weekend. It would be much better if they offered something like GSL with games every day and where players know who they face a week before.
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On February 15 2012 01:22 ProBot wrote:
I have no problem with PPV per se .... Here's my problem the latter half of the year when i was watching the streams it seemed like there was around 150k views at times. So lets say they lose 1/3rd of their viewership cuz of the PPV so 100k Viewers @ $20 is 2mil ..... not saying they're going to make that much but it's a potential reachable number. So they're going to make a shit ton of money regardless if some people opt out of PPV, now back to my problem ... with potential $2,000,000 for a closed door tournament with no moving equipment into stadiums and very little overheard as far as logistics go your telling me you can't spare more than $26,000 TOTAL prize pool for the players. That to me is the disgusting part out of all this, MLG exists because of the players. MLG needs the players to survive, the players don't need MLG and yet the mlg prize pools are always pretty pathetic.
Are you crazy? Only 15% of the TL members are willing to pay for it, which means if MLG gets 5% of the 150k viewers, it would be already lucky.
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On February 15 2012 01:23 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:10 Essobee wrote:On February 15 2012 00:55 Longshank wrote:On February 15 2012 00:48 Essobee wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone with a gold membership understands that they are still getting the 4 pro circuit events this year, and therefore not missing out on anything that they were expecting. The winter arena is like adding shrimp to your steak at outback; it's a bit overpriced, but not necessary. you're still getting a pretty good steak without the addons.
Uhm, it's quite reasonable to believe that something advertised as Pro Circuit Arena would actually be included in your ticket that would cover all Pro Circuit events this year. thanks for your quite helpful response. the point is that the gold membership holders aren't losing out on anything they were promised. this winter arena is content that is additional, and technically any type of membership that was previously purchased, doesn't include this type of content. do i think a membership should warrant a discount of events of these types? yes. do i think the price point is too high for an event of this type? yes. but i wasn't promised anything like arena events included with my membership, so i think it pertinent to remind people of this fact. MLG has been good in the past about changing their stances on things that evoke so much ire in the community (like this). I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in the price point, or a free low quality stream to be added. it's obvious that they're fumbling through this thing, trying to find a fair way (to themselves and the community) to provide quality content while maintaining some kind of business model. make your opinions on the matter heard guys, but keep in mind that MLG has been pretty fair with us in the past, and they deserve a little more respect and patience from us in the community while they try and figure this uncharted territory out. rather than posting rude or immature posts to MLG, or even Sundance himself, speak out on forums like these, and ultimately speak with your wallet. to have some in the community threaten to boycott MLG entirely, or even threaten to "skull fuck" Sundance personally, really puts a black eye one the community as a whole. even if those people are the vocal minority. Let me get this straight. MLG changed their Pro Circuit into something I didn't pay for with my gold membership. I can argue: I thought there were 6 live events, in 2012 there are only 4. That may sound like splitting hairs. What if they made all of their events "arenas" and had only one live championship, like last year's Providence? There's nothing stopping them from doing that, and charging $$ for esports. Whoops, I guess I only paid for one event. Too bad my membership is canceled by the end of the year anyway. I don't know why you don't see a problem with "re-classifying" something so you can charge people who thought they'd already paid. I'm sad if MLG is not breaking even financially, I'd rather they are successful. However, I'm not going to pay them $20 for something I thought I already did and is overpriced anyway. I don't have that kind of money right now, and if I did, Gom would get it first. I also canceled my pitchfork pre-order. Edit: changed "tournament" to "pro circuit"
Why are you operating under the assumption that they're not profitable? Why not operate under the assumption that they noticed MLG gets away with PPV and they think that with an inferior product they can appeal to our heart strings and grab some extra cash as well. I really wish people would open their eyes a bit. How does an company exist if they have been in the red for years according to them? How do they generate 50 million in 2009 and not find a way to make a profit?
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On February 15 2012 01:31 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:27 Essobee wrote:On February 15 2012 01:21 Vul wrote:On February 15 2012 01:10 Essobee wrote:On February 15 2012 00:55 Longshank wrote:On February 15 2012 00:48 Essobee wrote:
I'm not sure that everyone with a gold membership understands that they are still getting the 4 pro circuit events this year, and therefore not missing out on anything that they were expecting. The winter arena is like adding shrimp to your steak at outback; it's a bit overpriced, but not necessary. you're still getting a pretty good steak without the addons.
Uhm, it's quite reasonable to believe that something advertised as Pro Circuit Arena would actually be included in your ticket that would cover all Pro Circuit events this year. thanks for your quite helpful response. the point is that the gold membership holders aren't losing out on anything they were promised. this winter arena is content that is additional, and technically any type of membership that was previously purchased, doesn't include this type of content. do i think a membership should warrant a discount of events of these types? yes. do i think the price point is too high for an event of this type? yes. but i wasn't promised anything like arena events included with my membership, so i think it pertinent to remind people of this fact. MLG has been good in the past about changing their stances on things that evoke so much ire in the community (like this). I wouldn't be surprised to see a drop in the price point, or a free low quality stream to be added. it's obvious that they're fumbling through this thing, trying to find a fair way (to themselves and the community) to provide quality content while maintaining some kind of business model. make your opinions on the matter heard guys, but keep in mind that MLG has been pretty fair with us in the past, and they deserve a little more respect and patience from us in the community while they try and figure this uncharted territory out. rather than posting rude or immature posts to MLG, or even Sundance himself, speak out on forums like these, and ultimately speak with your wallet. to have some in the community threaten to boycott MLG entirely, or even threaten to "skull fuck" Sundance personally, really puts a black eye one the community as a whole. even if those people are the vocal minority. The bottom line is that MLG advertised this gold membership as giving access to all of their "MLG Pro Circuit" content and this is the "MLG Pro Circuit: Winter Arena." If you were paying to watch the MLG Pro Circuit, wouldn't you expect that it would be covered? I just don't understand what there is to disagree about on this one. MLG either fucked up on accident and I hope they will realize it and correct it in time, or they're trying to manipulate people. Right now I assume it's the former did a quick search, and i don't see anywhere official where the MLG Winter Arena is listed in the pro circuit. as far as i can tell, it is a separate entity entirely from the Pro Circuit. There are no points awarded towards this season. the only correlation i can find, is using the previous season's points for seeding. would be happy to discuss the bungled advertisement of the winter arena as a pro circuit event if you can find it Look on page 6, Virgil's post at the bottom.
thanks!
yeah, that's an awful way to promote the winter arena. it gives a false idea out to the community, and really should have been thought of before it was put out. MLG is definitely not the most well run business organization out there. but, i don't think there is one tournament provider outside of Korea that has this down pat yet. you could claim false advertising i suppose, but i'm curious as to what the benefit of that would be. i mean, can we chalk it up to a bad decision and leave it at that? or would boycotting this event, or even all future MLG events help us as a community in any way? i don't really have an answer. i guess if this pisses anyone off enough to the point where they'll ignore the Winter Arena (as i myself am tempted, what with Assembly providing stellar content as well that weekend), or even ignore MLG together, that's a valid option.
I'd like to see the companies out there providing us with this content make money. i'd also like to see it done professionally and smoothly. without the sudden change in memberships (MLG's silver membership fiasco comes to mind), or the sudden decision to charge a PPV system for a tournament 11 days prior to the tournament. that just indicates a lack of forethought, and puts a question in the minds of all of MLG's fans about the viability of MLG as an orginization that can "get it done" for esports.
i, personally, and willing to give them a little bit of leeway. i've been watching MLG events for years, and other than last year (after Dallas), they have been a complete mess. but they got their act together last year, and i really enjoyed it. for myself, that warrants a bit of patience while they try and figure this newfound success out. I'm not a terribly patient person, so i won't be extolling MLG's virtues if they can't get things figured out quickly this year, but they've still got some maneuvering room as far as i'm concerned.
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On February 15 2012 01:22 ProBot wrote:
I have no problem with PPV per se .... Here's my problem the latter half of the year when i was watching the streams it seemed like there was around 150k views at times. So lets say they lose 1/3rd of their viewership cuz of the PPV so 100k Viewers @ $20 is 2mil ..... not saying they're going to make that much but it's a potential reachable number. So they're going to make a shit ton of money regardless if some people opt out of PPV, now back to my problem ... with potential $2,000,000 for a closed door tournament with no moving equipment into stadiums and very little overheard as far as logistics go your telling me you can't spare more than $26,000 TOTAL prize pool for the players. That to me is the disgusting part out of all this, MLG exists because of the players. MLG needs the players to survive, the players don't need MLG and yet the mlg prize pools are always pretty pathetic.
They are going to lose much more than a third of viewers. They would be lucky to keep a third of their viewers.
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Big thumbs up to Alex for this thread. I chose the second option on both polls. I shall not be paying $20, I would pay $10. Although I do sympathise with the position MLG is in. They produce arguably the best content and hire the best casters and this is definitely worth something but there is a hell of a lot of free content available everyday - more than anyone can watch and still have anything like a life. So the question to me is how much being able to watch that quality content live worth? hmm, not $20.
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$5 to $8 sounds right to me. This is only for one weekend. The thing that bothers me about paying more is that then I feel obligated to watch every single game in order to get my money's worth. This then makes it feel somewhat like a chore... I don't want to pay to have to devote the entire weekend to watching the tournament.
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Great post Alex, I agree with all you points made in this article. I chose option B if the price is lower I'm happy to pay.
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Alex, you're always so damn good at keeping the peace with your flawless reasoning in any situation. Thank you.
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On February 14 2012 19:07 Geiko wrote:Poll from this thread+ Show Spoiler +Poll: How much would you pay for MLG PPV?I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less. (959) 39% I'd pay $10, but not $20. (945) 38% I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10. (205) 8% I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge. (169) 7% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10. (111) 5% I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20. (67) 3% 2456 total votes Your vote: How much would you pay for MLG PPV? (Vote): I'm fine with the $20 price point, but I'd gladly pay $10.
(Vote): I'd pay $10, but not $20.
(Vote): I wouldn't even buy it for $10 or less.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $10 if the regular price were $20.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I'd pay $5 if the regular price were $10.
(Vote): I bought Gold, and I think I should receive the Arena passes at no extra charge.
Poll: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members?No (1520) 74% Yes (539) 26% 2059 total votes Your vote: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Is this another one of those "results disagree" bugs ? Or do TL forumers just agree with whatever was said in the OP...
Those are polls for 2 completely different things. So your wrong on both accounts. But I'm a nice guy so I'll explain.
First poll is asking people with already existing MLG GOLD memberships if the would pay on top of their existing membership ...
The second one is asking the general public if they would just pay $10 flat.
Reading is your friend.
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id only pay 10 if i was able to watch the whole thing, but since i do work on the weekends until 6, id catch maybe half the content? and that's only if i get home at 7pm and they went to about 12am.
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On February 15 2012 01:37 gds wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:22 ProBot wrote:
I have no problem with PPV per se .... Here's my problem the latter half of the year when i was watching the streams it seemed like there was around 150k views at times. So lets say they lose 1/3rd of their viewership cuz of the PPV so 100k Viewers @ $20 is 2mil ..... not saying they're going to make that much but it's a potential reachable number. So they're going to make a shit ton of money regardless if some people opt out of PPV, now back to my problem ... with potential $2,000,000 for a closed door tournament with no moving equipment into stadiums and very little overheard as far as logistics go your telling me you can't spare more than $26,000 TOTAL prize pool for the players. That to me is the disgusting part out of all this, MLG exists because of the players. MLG needs the players to survive, the players don't need MLG and yet the mlg prize pools are always pretty pathetic. Are you crazy? Only 15% of the TL members are willing to pay for it, which means if MLG gets 5% of the 150k viewers, it would be already lucky.
I said potential ... not exact. It's more to stress the fact that the prize pools are pathetic and they should be paying the players more money.
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Totally agree that $10 is a suitable figure. They would certainly make more money if they sold it for less, as ironic as that sounds, it's true.
I'm all for PPV streaming in eSports. It's fantastic to get stuff for free as a spectator, but as time goes on, spectators won't have anything to watch if the leagues close down due to lack of money.
Coming from an event organiser's perspective, if I were to charge anybody $20 for a broadcast, I'd want to make sure my production and content was top-notch. As far as I've seen so far, I wouldn't say MLG's production or content is worth $20 per person for a weekend. So, I hope this changes.
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On February 15 2012 02:02 ProBot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:37 gds wrote:On February 15 2012 01:22 ProBot wrote:
I have no problem with PPV per se .... Here's my problem the latter half of the year when i was watching the streams it seemed like there was around 150k views at times. So lets say they lose 1/3rd of their viewership cuz of the PPV so 100k Viewers @ $20 is 2mil ..... not saying they're going to make that much but it's a potential reachable number. So they're going to make a shit ton of money regardless if some people opt out of PPV, now back to my problem ... with potential $2,000,000 for a closed door tournament with no moving equipment into stadiums and very little overheard as far as logistics go your telling me you can't spare more than $26,000 TOTAL prize pool for the players. That to me is the disgusting part out of all this, MLG exists because of the players. MLG needs the players to survive, the players don't need MLG and yet the mlg prize pools are always pretty pathetic. Are you crazy? Only 15% of the TL members are willing to pay for it, which means if MLG gets 5% of the 150k viewers, it would be already lucky. I said potential ... not exact. It's more to stress the fact that the prize pools are pathetic and they should be paying the players more money.
i wonder what the players prefer, a bigger prize pool but they or their team would have to pay for their flight/stay or less prize pool but everything else is already paid for.
i think the koreans would take the latter since covering flights/stay would obviously cost them more. the americans/europeans maybe the latter too cause lets be honest any tournament with koreans lowers their chance a lot at winning, so at least they wouldnt be down the expense of flight/stay.
at least thats my thoughts, anyone know if any of the invited players have said either way?
edit: and i dont know the breakdown of prize pool at the arena either
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I agree compleatly. I do want to support esports but just like everything else, I have to get a fair deal.
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I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt and say this is an experiment to see how many viewers they can lose.
Then they will correct this "mistake" and the community will be willing to pay $10 for the next one. CONSPIRACY.
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Maybe he's pulling another one of those "say something really stupid to build drama ... then make it reasonable." It also makes it easier to take a small change as a consumer if you're pissed at a potential big change.
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Gold members get to see all "Pro Circuit" events.
Sundance states that the "Arena" is not part of the "Pro Circuit".
But, graphics like this are being cranked out since the announcement of the MLG Arena concept.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cI9ZV.png)
As a result, Gold Members have their pitchforks out... with some justification.
As others have already stated this new revenue model appears ill conceived and rushed out the door at the last minute.
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I have several issues with this, but I'm with some of the other people who can't/wouldn't watch the whole weekend. I usually try to catch my favorite players then the semi-finals and finals at these types of events. There is no way I'd pay $20 for that kind of viewing experience, and I can't really change my viewing experience without sacrificing something else. VODs would be ok, but that just isn't that same, and I doubt I'd go rewatch them (they would be spoiled anyhow).
I might do $10, but even that seems a little high, for what I would personally get out of it. $5 is about all I could personally justify spending.
I should also mention that I watch as much SC2 as I do because it is free. As soon as it becomes anything near an expensive "hobby" I'll move on to something else free or at least something where I feel like I get more for my money.
My 2c.
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I like that MLG is doing a PPV how ever the fact that gold members do not get the content is silly. I can see why they did this as they are comparing it to the Gomtv and there AoL tournaments as depending on which package you get you may or may not get them. However MLG is not Gom and does not have the same level of competition as Gom does. Also with Assembly be at the same time this is a poor decision by MLG as many viewers will just jump ship. I think this concept would work if the price was lowered to $15 and Gold membership included it.
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I'm crossposting this from a Reddit thread, don't think I need to provide extra context:
I really, really want to support MLG and the industry in general, but $20 for a weekend is too much, too soon. Factor into that that their target demographic is a generally poor audience AND that we can get much more content for less ($15 for a GSL season), it becomes hard to justify throwing them $20 when quite frankly I am always almost broke. Would I have paid $10? Absolutely, in a heartbeat, I can justify it as an impulse purchase! $20, however, is way way too much.
I guess part of this is that I've never seen PPV. I know it exists, but (as far as I'm aware) not in the Netherlands. Whenever I thought "PPV" I though "So like, $5-10 for an UFC event".
On the one hand I really hope that this works out for MLG, but I also hope that they can look at their current pricing structure and realize that their key demographic (generally) doesn't have a lot of money.
And like OP said, telling us about the Winter Arena being PPV not even 2 weeks before the event starts feels like a bit of a kick in the balls. I was genuinely looking forward to the event, but now I can't help but think "Well, guess I'll just look up the scores on TL." Had we known about it sooner (like for instance similar to GSL's ticket structure), I would've been able to take my time to look at the price and my budget to see if I could fit it in, like I did with GSL.
But at this point? Sorry MLG, assuming I can still pay $10 for 3 months of Silver (and thus a MLG championship), that's all you will be getting from me.
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Are you guys serious? There were just as many people who aren't willing to pay at all as there were who would shell out $10? If you honestly can't afford $10 for 20 hours of gameplay and content, you seriously need to take the metaphorical stick out of your ass and think about what you're conveying to MLG and other tournaments. You're not willing to pay a dime because you're entitled to free content 100% of the time? How many tournaments do you think will aim to please the fans as much as MLG has if you idiots aren't willing to pay at all for the content they provide? $10 is a solid, reasonable amount for a weekend of starcraft, not to mention the amazing production quality that MLG provides us every tournament. Look at how far they've come since Columbus last year, then think about where they can go with $10 per viewer for each event.
MLG is headed in the right direction. I hope you guys who think you're entitled to herp derp free content wake/grow up.
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well i am just curious about the viewer numbers. In my experience alot that say i won't pay for it, do it anyway. So i am interested in how many mlg will get, 5k viewers or 15k. In any case a horror scenario for sponsors. But maybe mlg caught enough people in their net already, so they can life of these few viewers. Which would most likely turn all their events into ppv only.
Wonder how the second arena will fare, when everyone isn't shocked by the announcement anymore.
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Has it been announced if there will be ads or not? I would feel a lot more comfortable paying in the first place if I knew that it would secure me some peace of mind from those things.
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On February 14 2012 15:10 Bowzer wrote:
As a disgruntled gold member, I will be doing option C.
For me it isn't about the 20 dollars, I spent 20 dollars on supper tonight. It's the principle of how Sundance convinced us that buying gold memberships was helping pro players and e-sports, and that we'd see big things this year depending on the amount of gold subscribers they got.
This is more or less how I feel. I still feel that $20 is a bit too much compared to GSL/NASL, but the big thing for me is I have Gold and they still want $20 from me for a one off event?
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MLG was cool when it was silver pass = like 3 MLG's online.
Now its just lame. Haven't ordered a "PPV" since I watched the WWF's Royal Rumble when I was like 12.
Just fuck off with all this MLG ARENA BATTLE, ONLINE MLG CUPS, MLG QUALIFIERS, ETC and just go back to the old format of 6 MLG's a year. It was prestigious.
already finding a way to screw it up...
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Because your free and membership views were doing so well last year you think you can push us around this year and be so bold to try and make us pay TWENTY DOLLARS FOR 3 DAYS?!?!? Have you lost your damn minds?? This is pure greed in its purest form. I see you want to be UFC successful. However this isn't UFC levels of popularity.
Our scene is no where near that form. We have so many alternatives and albeit MLG is a huge event I greatly look forward to, its not worth it for someone who makes 8bucks an hour to pay 3hrs worth of their hard work. Have you completely forgotten what your majority fanbase is? They're kids like me who are still working small jobs and paying to go to school. Who just cant afford it.
As I was reading it from the start when I saw you were gonna be making it a PPV I said to myself
"Well it better only be $5 or else this is a huge fail and a huge greedy move."
Then I saw the 20 and it was "Nope, no way. Never"
This is a sad day in esports. If this was a year from now and the scene had continued to exponentially grow as it did from 2010 to 2011. Then MAYBE this would work. But its not. And you need to hurry up and change this now. Make different packs.
Free for 240p... 5 dollars for 480p. 10 for 720p and 20 for HD. And VOD's should all be included, if you payed to watch it during stream you should be able to watch it forever.
Maybe not free for 240p... the whole point is to start making money, and I'm starting to agree with your sentiment.
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MLG has always rubbed me the wrong way when it comes to PR.
Starting from the time Sundance showed up at SotG to discuss extended series.
Basically it came down to...
...for every complaint about MLG, Sundance replied:
"Do you see any other successful North American leagues around? I don't think so! Deal with it!"
They are very headstrong about their beliefs and no amount of fan whining will stop them.
Which means the PPV is probably here to stay...
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On February 15 2012 02:25 TUski wrote:
Are you guys serious? There were just as many people who aren't willing to pay at all as there were who would shell out $10? If you honestly can't afford $10 for 20 hours of gameplay and content, you seriously need to take the metaphorical stick out of your ass and think about what you're conveying to MLG and other tournaments. You're not willing to pay a dime because you're entitled to free content 100% of the time? How many tournaments do you think will aim to please the fans as much as MLG has if you idiots aren't willing to pay at all for the content they provide? $10 is a solid, reasonable amount for a weekend of starcraft, not to mention the amazing production quality that MLG provides us every tournament. Look at how far they've come since Columbus last year, then think about where they can go with $10 per viewer for each event.
MLG is headed in the right direction. I hope you guys who think you're entitled to herp derp free content wake/grow up.
Why dont you grow up yourself, i just dont think mlg is worth 20 bucks. Its at night, their stream always sucks for me and their are better alternatives that are cheaper (gsl). Plus the only thing that makes mlg worth it for me(the crowd) isn't even there this event.
No need to be such an ass because people dont agree with you
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For myself I find it hard to justify to pay for any event when there are so many games going on and free tournaments and even some in free HD. Just looking at the people who are streaming, top names! Why would I pay.. doesn't make any sense.. and paying 20$ like 6 times for all events? No thanks.
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Interesting perspective.. you made some great points, and I can understand why you are not participating. Viewership is your bread and butter, and you have a responsibility to your sponsors to market their product as much as possible.
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On February 15 2012 02:39 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:25 TUski wrote:
Are you guys serious? There were just as many people who aren't willing to pay at all as there were who would shell out $10? If you honestly can't afford $10 for 20 hours of gameplay and content, you seriously need to take the metaphorical stick out of your ass and think about what you're conveying to MLG and other tournaments. You're not willing to pay a dime because you're entitled to free content 100% of the time? How many tournaments do you think will aim to please the fans as much as MLG has if you idiots aren't willing to pay at all for the content they provide? $10 is a solid, reasonable amount for a weekend of starcraft, not to mention the amazing production quality that MLG provides us every tournament. Look at how far they've come since Columbus last year, then think about where they can go with $10 per viewer for each event.
MLG is headed in the right direction. I hope you guys who think you're entitled to herp derp free content wake/grow up. Why dont you grow up yourself, i just dont think mlg is worth 20 bucks. Its at night, their stream always sucks for me and their are better alternatives that are cheaper (gsl). Plus the only thing that makes mlg worth it for me(the crowd) isn't even there this event. No need to be such an ass because people dont agree with you
I didn't see him being an 'ass' in the least bit. He's annoyed as well he should be that people who supposedly "support" this community isn't willing to actually stand up and support it when the time comes.
10 dollars is reasonable. 20 is not. I'll pay 10, never 20.
If VODs aren't included with 10 I won't be buying it either. If you pay to watch something streamed you get it permanently. Also if its not HD I can't bring myself to spend money on it either so if you're thinking about doing some cop out MLG where 10 for low quality? Then forget it.
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People ITT:
![[image loading]](http://api.ning.com/files/sDUbcOWdlgsWuvwSgQ9MwtcVdXOpVHMz7IIS3gCLnfCjLTzEtyLXwWTmG69XgJkIw7kme5ia5YYR6*4bunyEeQ__/m54461_WegetitYourebutthurt.jpeg)
User was warned for this post
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On February 15 2012 02:25 TUski wrote:
Are you guys serious? There were just as many people who aren't willing to pay at all as there were who would shell out $10? If you honestly can't afford $10 for 20 hours of gameplay and content, you seriously need to take the metaphorical stick out of your ass and think about what you're conveying to MLG and other tournaments. You're not willing to pay a dime because you're entitled to free content 100% of the time? How many tournaments do you think will aim to please the fans as much as MLG has if you idiots aren't willing to pay at all for the content they provide? $10 is a solid, reasonable amount for a weekend of starcraft, not to mention the amazing production quality that MLG provides us every tournament. Look at how far they've come since Columbus last year, then think about where they can go with $10 per viewer for each event.
MLG is headed in the right direction. I hope you guys who think you're entitled to herp derp free content wake/grow up.
How many times are people going to repeat themselves.
The point is NOT that I don't have $20. It's just not. Please get that through your heads.
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I know the polls aren't scientific but with 15% of people in the MLG thread saying they'd pay $20 and 40% of the people in this thread saying they'd pay $10, simple math would indicate that MLG mispriced their product.
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My big problem is the crying poverty for a situation 100% caused by themselves. OK, NYC is expensive. So why hold the tourney there? Flying players is expensive. So why are you doing that when there's no audience?
We’re at (and when I say “we,” I mean, teams, tournaments, content providers, everyone) an incredibly crucial moment in the lifespan of this industry. We’re at a point at which we, as an industry, need to become less reliant on third-party, outsider revenue (like corporate sponsors), and increase the percentage of our revenue that’s generated within the eSports ecosystem (direct-to-consumer revenue like subscriptions and merchandise).
An answer to this is the NFL. While they do make non-trivial money from ticket sales and merchandise, their big revenue source is broadcast rights. Indeed, network television, and even most cable channels, are incredibly dependent on third-party outsider revenue in the form of commercials. Radio too. Magazines and newspapers. Pretty much every major content provider except for movies and music (which is still dependent on radio, and thus indirectly) is dependent on 3rd party advertisement.
Those sports that have tried to go PPV - tennis for a time, horse racing and boxing - have largely become irrelevant. Those up and comers that are dependent on PPV - MMA particularly - are hampered by putting some of their biggest fights on PPV. UFCs big plus is that they offer some free fights (The Ultimate Fighter, fights on FOX, FX, Spike, formerly Versus). You can't build interest by requiring up front cash.
I disagree that history shows PPV as the future. I think EG is more on the right track with free low quality and ads with a premium service available. That was what MLG had before they added this secondary "Arena" league. Right now all the Arena league seems to be doing is stirring up resentment from paying customers (like myself) who bought Gold and now won't get all the MLG content.
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Really good post. Great insight, but I'll put down the pitchfork as soon as MLG loses the cloak and dagger. How it was announced is my main issue with it.
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Not going to pay 20 dollars on top of the 30 bucks gold membership.
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It's great we see a tourney like MLG forking out such amazing content, however before we " the poorest demographic " just throw out our money.. lets consider a few things
The GSL is Cheaper, and provides MUCH more content and has much better competition ...
Can we reasonably throw an extra $20 for only a weekend of content?
They've been giving us free content for so long, only to now turn around and charge a whopping $20.... Something like $5- $10 would be much more reasonable.. It's just a slap in the cock and very unprofessional.
There are other ways to offset the cost of there production/airline fees/ Prize pool... MLG has been continuously growing and each event continues to break the viewership numbers of the previous event. Why would it be so hard to attract more sponsors, or other less savory means to help pay for the event....
also.. the next slap in the cock... The prize pool, You guys are going to charge $20 and the first place prize is only going to be... 15k?
MLG is really an outstanding organization that has shown itself to be more then competent in the past and I hope/expect them too fix the glaring fallacies in their plan very soon.
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On February 14 2012 23:37 trebad wrote:
I get get a full season of GSL for $15. I bought a Gold Membership with the promise of great things to come. Almost seems like a Bait and Switch tactic.
However,
I don't think asking for $20 4 times a year is too unreasonable. You should get the MLG championship as well though. I don't know how many season the GSL will have this year, but Iook at what it costs to get a year of GSL.
If they offered a deal where you could order all four events for $60, I would do it. I am ok right now paying with $20 to watch the games live. However, I do think gold members should get a discount for their support.
Also, what if MGL has reasonable success with this tournment and is able to hold the event more often? Say 6-8 times a year. Then we are working our way slowly to a local version of the GSL. I think that would be awesome.
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On February 15 2012 02:54 VPCursed wrote:
It's great we see a tourney like MLG forking out such amazing content, however before we " the poorest demographic " just throw out our money.. lets consider a few things
The GSL is Cheaper, and provides MUCH more content and has much better competition ...
Can we reasonably throw an extra $20 for only a weekend of content?
They've been giving us free content for so long, only to now turn around and charge a whopping $20.... Something like $5- $10 would be much more reasonable.. It's just a slap in the cock and very unprofessional.
There are other ways to offset the cost of there production/airline fees/ Prize pool... MLG has been continuously growing and each event continues to break the viewership numbers of the previous event. Why would it be so hard to attract more sponsors, or other less savory means to help pay for the event....
also.. the next slap in the cock... The prize pool, You guys are going to charge $20 and the first place prize is only going to be... 15k?
MLG is really an outstanding organization that has shown itself to be more then competent in the past and I hope/expect them too fix the glaring fallacies in their plan very soon.
Compairing this to GSL is a bit silly. GSL does not fly anyone anywhere. They also only have the cost of the studio and stream to deal with. They have the infastructure to provide more content. If this were successful, maybe MGL could provide more events like this and more content.
Also, MGL provides more content for free that the GSL. Everything up to the finals is free and the VODs are free after the fact. None of that is true for the GSL.
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On February 15 2012 02:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 23:37 trebad wrote:
I get get a full season of GSL for $15. I bought a Gold Membership with the promise of great things to come. Almost seems like a Bait and Switch tactic.
However,
I don't think asking for $20 4 times a year is too unreasonable. You should get the MLG championship as well though. I don't know how many season the GSL will have this year, but Iook at what it costs to get a year of GSL. If they offered a deal where you could order all four events for $60, I would do it. I am ok right now paying with $20 to watch the games live. However, I do think gold members should get a discount for their support. Also, what if MGL has reasonable success with this tournment and is able to hold the event more often? Say 6-8 times a year. Then we are working our way slowly to a local version of the GSL. I think that would be awesome.
At that point I feel like the tournament scene would be somewhat too big. GSL had a tournament nearly every month which made the tournaments feel rushed and not as important, which is what might happen, and the funding required for all those tournaments would lead to more ppv events, decreasing the viewership, not to mention teams couldn't possibly afford to fly out their players around the world when MLG alone has that many tournaments.
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On February 15 2012 02:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:54 VPCursed wrote:
It's great we see a tourney like MLG forking out such amazing content, however before we " the poorest demographic " just throw out our money.. lets consider a few things
The GSL is Cheaper, and provides MUCH more content and has much better competition ...
Can we reasonably throw an extra $20 for only a weekend of content?
They've been giving us free content for so long, only to now turn around and charge a whopping $20.... Something like $5- $10 would be much more reasonable.. It's just a slap in the cock and very unprofessional.
There are other ways to offset the cost of there production/airline fees/ Prize pool... MLG has been continuously growing and each event continues to break the viewership numbers of the previous event. Why would it be so hard to attract more sponsors, or other less savory means to help pay for the event....
also.. the next slap in the cock... The prize pool, You guys are going to charge $20 and the first place prize is only going to be... 15k?
MLG is really an outstanding organization that has shown itself to be more then competent in the past and I hope/expect them too fix the glaring fallacies in their plan very soon.
Compairing this to GSL is a bit silly. GSL does not fly anyone anywhere. They also only have the cost of the studio and stream to deal with. They have the infastructure to provide more content. If this were successful, maybe MGL could provide more events like this and more content.Also, MGL provides more content for free that the GSL. Everything up to the finals is free and the VODs are free after the fact. None of that is true for the GSL.
By sacking all their content production team at the end of last year?
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People must be really poor ;P 20$ is nothing ^^
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I won't be near a computer for 2/3 days of the Arena. I don't want to spend $20 for one day. This is probably an uncommon complaint, but a valid one, I feel. Some sort of cheaper one-day option might work well, especially for finals day.
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On February 15 2012 02:39 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:25 TUski wrote:
Are you guys serious? There were just as many people who aren't willing to pay at all as there were who would shell out $10? If you honestly can't afford $10 for 20 hours of gameplay and content, you seriously need to take the metaphorical stick out of your ass and think about what you're conveying to MLG and other tournaments. You're not willing to pay a dime because you're entitled to free content 100% of the time? How many tournaments do you think will aim to please the fans as much as MLG has if you idiots aren't willing to pay at all for the content they provide? $10 is a solid, reasonable amount for a weekend of starcraft, not to mention the amazing production quality that MLG provides us every tournament. Look at how far they've come since Columbus last year, then think about where they can go with $10 per viewer for each event.
MLG is headed in the right direction. I hope you guys who think you're entitled to herp derp free content wake/grow up. Why dont you grow up yourself, i just dont think mlg is worth 20 bucks. Its at night, their stream always sucks for me and their are better alternatives that are cheaper (gsl). Plus the only thing that makes mlg worth it for me(the crowd) isn't even there this event. No need to be such an ass because people dont agree with you
Look at the second sentence of my post again. Then look at yours.
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On February 15 2012 03:00 Aakoz wrote:
People must be really poor ;P 20$ is nothing ^^
Or most starcraft players are young ppl like students or ppl with minium wages who have thight budget anyway.
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On February 15 2012 02:59 Plansix wrote:
Compairing this to GSL is a bit silly. GSL does not fly anyone anywhere. They also only have the cost of the studio and stream to deal with. They have the infastructure to provide more content. If this were successful, maybe MGL could provide more events like this and more content.
Also, MGL provides more content for free that the GSL. Everything up to the finals is free and the VODs are free after the fact. None of that is true for the GSL.
It is not silly to compare it to the GSL, they are different tournaments offering the same product (sc2 tournaments) and now both are charging for the games. This is why I am not going to pay, why should I when I can pay for the GSL and get more content that includes games by the very best players in the world, the best casting team in the world AND much more content (you seem to be forgetting that with a GSL season ticket you get Code A and Up/Down matches as well.) The comparison is valid and pertinent.
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Well i think im gona buy it for 20 dollars but it really obt to be 10 dollars, 20 is so much.
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I am a current Gold member as well. I can't wrap my head around why Gold members should, at the very least, get a 50%+ Discount on this Winter Arena. Just because you name something in a way that could differentiate itself from the normal content you provide does not mean that you can price it as a package and sell it (for a ridiculous price at that) and then claim it is completely separate from the content we provide for free to our Gold Members.
They just let go alot of employees at MLG, canceled shows, parted ways with SOTG, and yet they still have these OBVIOUS money making schemes. I just don't get their mindset
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On February 15 2012 03:03 Calyeah wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:59 Plansix wrote:
Compairing this to GSL is a bit silly. GSL does not fly anyone anywhere. They also only have the cost of the studio and stream to deal with. They have the infastructure to provide more content. If this were successful, maybe MGL could provide more events like this and more content.
Also, MGL provides more content for free that the GSL. Everything up to the finals is free and the VODs are free after the fact. None of that is true for the GSL. It is not silly to compare it to the GSL, they are different tournaments offering the same product (sc2 tournaments) and now both are charging for the games. This is why I am not going to pay, why should I when I can pay for the GSL and get more content that includes games by the very best players in the world, the best casting team in the world AND much more content (you seem to be forgetting that with a GSL season ticket you get Code A and Up/Down matches as well.) The comparison is valid and pertinent.
I would point out that MGL provides almost all of it content for no charge at all. You don't need to watch the event live and can catch the VODs a week later. MGL is also flying the best players from around the world and housing them for the lenght of the event. All and all I think they are putting a lot of money down to run a high quality event and I am willing to risk $20 bucks to see it live.
And to be clear, I have subscribed to GSL since season 2. I used to watch it every morning before work live, now I catch the VODs when I can.
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Why is it that MLG are forcing you to buy HD streams? The internet in my area is terrible and so having no use for HD i feel like im paying the same amount and getting less out of it. Also the fact that as a european half the matches will be played in the middle of the night makes me feel like unless I ruin my sleeping pattern and watch as much as possible I would be wasting my money.
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The price point of $20 is way too high. What we're getting for $20, considering the length of the MLG, how much content, if the "look" and feel of the event is similar to what's been hosted in the past...that's expensive.
I think it's important to look the competitors and what they offer for free, and compare that against what MLG is charging. Only if MLG is incredibly, that much better, and some "value add" items such as release of replays and so on.
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On February 15 2012 03:00 Aakoz wrote:
People must be really poor ;P 20$ is nothing ^^
It is the principle of the thing that is the problem, not a 20$ bill. We, as the consumer, must hold the producer liable for outrageous prices or products.
As an example: Gold membership is 30$ a year, and last year we received 5 weekends of entertainment.
(Not to mention the other perks provided by the Gold membership)
And now we are expected to pay 20$ for 1 weekend in which the prize money is the only objective for the players.
By that I mean it is not a circuit event where the winner gets a spot in the Championship i.e. Providence.
There is a need for consistency
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On February 15 2012 03:02 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:00 Aakoz wrote:
People must be really poor ;P 20$ is nothing ^^ Or most starcraft players are young ppl like students or ppl with minium wages who have thight budget anyway.
plenty of young people/students shell out $30-50 on a given night to go drinking. it's not about whether people are poor asses, it's just where they prioritise their money. $20 for MLG isn't one of them because there are so much free content out there.
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There is a reason I like eSports and dislike traditional sports. Many of the things about traditional sports that I like (friendly competition, personal achievement, cooperation) are present in eSports while many of the things I dislike (Idiotic commentators, rampant commercial/materialism, Ape-like humans) are decidedly not. What commercialism exists in eSports is mostly related to eSports (i.e. Teams are sponsored mainly by electronics companies and energy drinks) and has always taken the backseat to community input in terms of influence. I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to pay for a Starcraft Stream. You want a donation? Sure, I'm not wealthy by any standard but I can throw 5 bucks your way occasionally. Want to run commercials? Fine - I actually like muting the commercial and alt-tabbing knowing I'm contributing to the stream while simultaneously NOT being assaulted by advertising. I appreciate the need to generate revenue - I just don't have that kind of money to waste on a stream for 2 days. Profit should not be the motivation behind eSports - and profit is obviously the motivation behind this move. I will find something else to do, check the score on Liquipedia and watch Husky's casts later. In the end, I get what I wanted - and MLG gets nothing from me. That's not necessarily how I want it, but I don't have $20 to watch for two days, sorry. Now - if it was "Make a donation to get stream access"...
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On February 15 2012 03:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:03 Calyeah wrote:On February 15 2012 02:59 Plansix wrote:
Compairing this to GSL is a bit silly. GSL does not fly anyone anywhere. They also only have the cost of the studio and stream to deal with. They have the infastructure to provide more content. If this were successful, maybe MGL could provide more events like this and more content.
Also, MGL provides more content for free that the GSL. Everything up to the finals is free and the VODs are free after the fact. None of that is true for the GSL. It is not silly to compare it to the GSL, they are different tournaments offering the same product (sc2 tournaments) and now both are charging for the games. This is why I am not going to pay, why should I when I can pay for the GSL and get more content that includes games by the very best players in the world, the best casting team in the world AND much more content (you seem to be forgetting that with a GSL season ticket you get Code A and Up/Down matches as well.) The comparison is valid and pertinent. I would point out that MGL provides almost all of it content for no charge at all. You don't need to watch the event live and can catch the VODs a week later. MGL is also flying the best players from around the world and housing them for the lenght of the event. All and all I think they are putting a lot of money down to run a high quality event and I am willing to risk $20 bucks to see it live. And to be clear, I have subscribed to GSL since season 2. I used to watch it every morning before work live, now I catch the VODs when I can.
Alright this has been bothering me quite a bit. It's MLG not MGL if you're gonna argue for a tournament the least you can do is get their name right. Also, ALL the foreign tournaments I can think of atm provide free streams at no charge, and their justification for charging viewers is that they're covering airfare and hotel costs, which was a business decision they decided to make and then forward the costs to the viewers.
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Great read Alex, thanks for posting this.
I would definitely buy the pass for $10, but $20 is a bit too much- that's about the price of an entire season of GSL!
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All of the posts by VirgilSC2 in this thread are quite good and deserve to be read. I totally agree about the bait and switch that MLG pulled and that topic deserves it's own thread. I think most people don't mind paying for an event but the way MLG has gone about this reeks of trying to rip-off their customers. They had to have known full-well when they announced their 2012 season that this event was going to be PPV and not included in their gold package, yet they reveal it less than two weeks before the actual event.
However, what's even more insulting to their customers is when Sundance tweets bullshit like this: "I personally (and MLG) have invested more money into the scene than we have earned. By choice. You have a choice as well. Have a good night." The community has shown time and time-again that they're willing to spend money (sending MKP to Orlando, all those Kickstarter documentaries, contributing to TB's shoutcrafts, etc.). To then accuse them of being cheap in order to try and sell them a product -- which many people with Gold memberships thought they'd already paid for -- is unbelievably sleazy.
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Guilting people into paying is pretty low at least...don't care much about Sundance as a person but if MLG adopts his personal opinions in their business decisions it will get nasty for them. That stuff doesn't work out well or at least never did in the past.
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On February 15 2012 03:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:03 Calyeah wrote:On February 15 2012 02:59 Plansix wrote:
Compairing this to GSL is a bit silly. GSL does not fly anyone anywhere. They also only have the cost of the studio and stream to deal with. They have the infastructure to provide more content. If this were successful, maybe MGL could provide more events like this and more content.
Also, MGL provides more content for free that the GSL. Everything up to the finals is free and the VODs are free after the fact. None of that is true for the GSL. It is not silly to compare it to the GSL, they are different tournaments offering the same product (sc2 tournaments) and now both are charging for the games. This is why I am not going to pay, why should I when I can pay for the GSL and get more content that includes games by the very best players in the world, the best casting team in the world AND much more content (you seem to be forgetting that with a GSL season ticket you get Code A and Up/Down matches as well.) The comparison is valid and pertinent. I would point out that MGL provides almost all of it content for no charge at all. You don't need to watch the event live and can catch the VODs a week later. MGL is also flying the best players from around the world and housing them for the lenght of the event. All and all I think they are putting a lot of money down to run a high quality event and I am willing to risk $20 bucks to see it live. And to be clear, I have subscribed to GSL since season 2. I used to watch it every morning before work live, now I catch the VODs when I can.
Please stop saying MGL.
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"I personally (and MLG) have invested more money into the scene than we have earned. By choice. You have a choice as well. Have a good night."
Woah...he said this? Time to stop watching MLG. Plenty of other Western tournaments that don't assume e-sports is sacred cause that deserves money. You're not curing cancer, you're trying to make money entertaining people. I'll live off GSL and other tournaments that actually have business models that don't require charity.
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Dominican Republic39 Posts
Im going with Option B cause I've paid $20 FOR THE WHOLE GSL SEASON, Im not going to pay the same for 3 days!.
<3 MLG I love what they do, I even love sundance for the way he manage MLG but 20 its just too much for 3 days, even knowing that they will be hundreds of games but STILL 3 days....
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On February 15 2012 03:16 Ricemagical wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:09 Plansix wrote:On February 15 2012 03:03 Calyeah wrote:On February 15 2012 02:59 Plansix wrote:
Compairing this to GSL is a bit silly. GSL does not fly anyone anywhere. They also only have the cost of the studio and stream to deal with. They have the infastructure to provide more content. If this were successful, maybe MGL could provide more events like this and more content.
Also, MGL provides more content for free that the GSL. Everything up to the finals is free and the VODs are free after the fact. None of that is true for the GSL. It is not silly to compare it to the GSL, they are different tournaments offering the same product (sc2 tournaments) and now both are charging for the games. This is why I am not going to pay, why should I when I can pay for the GSL and get more content that includes games by the very best players in the world, the best casting team in the world AND much more content (you seem to be forgetting that with a GSL season ticket you get Code A and Up/Down matches as well.) The comparison is valid and pertinent. I would point out that MGL provides almost all of it content for no charge at all. You don't need to watch the event live and can catch the VODs a week later. MGL is also flying the best players from around the world and housing them for the lenght of the event. All and all I think they are putting a lot of money down to run a high quality event and I am willing to risk $20 bucks to see it live. And to be clear, I have subscribed to GSL since season 2. I used to watch it every morning before work live, now I catch the VODs when I can. Alright this has been bothering me quite a bit. It's MLG not MGL if you're gonna argue for a tournament the least you can do is get their name right. Also, ALL the foreign tournaments I can think of atm provide free streams at no charge, and their justification for charging viewers is that they're covering airfare and hotel costs, which was a business decision they decided to make and then forward the costs to the viewers.
Sorry about that, I am on lunch break and typing pretty quickly.
That is true, they are footing the bill to fly players to their event. They are supporting the teams and players and passing some of the costs on to you. They are making sure the event will have the best SC2 players from around the world. If you don't like it and would rather the teams send who they could, then don't buy the PPV and watch the VODs later. However, if you want to watch it live, you can pay and enjoy the show.
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I agree with the sentiment stated from some in this thread along the lines of: Give money to a company if they provide a product you want, not because you want to support e-sports. If e-sports can't sustain itself financially without people supporting it for the support's sake, then it's not a viable long term environment. So if MLG offers a product you like with this PPV, go for it, but you will not do e-sports any good by supporting without feeling you actually receive $20 worth of product.
MLG are a company, their goal is to make money, if that coincides with a expansion of the sc2 scene then great, but MLG are not the only thing that expands the e-sports scene. Another thing to not forget is that as a customer you vote with your wallet. And from a community stand point that wallet is not endless, if funds are allocated to MLG there will inevatebly be less funds available for other enterprises, like premium streams for other tournaments - perhaps there is still enough money in "our" pockets to cover it all. Maybe there are better organizers out there that can create a better and more sustainable product than MLG can?
And, gold members defiantly got the short end of the stick, I find that quite low and an indicator of MLG's standards.
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There is enough Starcraft to watch as is. I purchased a GSL premium and have many other smaller tournaments I can watch and vods to catch up on. Also there are alot of streamers I can watch and get about the same entertainment. If they want to charge $20 for a single weekend, I can preoccupy my time viewing other events with little opportunity cost.
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As long as there is another "free" event running that weekend my attention will be there. I understand that MLG needs and wants to make money but if they continue like this they will end up like UFC, 100 ppv's a year and not one of them is worth it.
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Vote with your eyes folks. Watch the other tournament.
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MLG should ditch the high rise office space in NYC and set up somewhere cheaper? Since it doesn't matter where you are or your customers being in NYC is just retarded when it's twice as expensive as other parts in the country. Salaries, space, food and almost everything costs more in NYC. If you cut your costs significantly perhaps this wouldn't be needed at all?
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I guess the best way to descibe this is, too much, too soon, for too little.
On February 15 2012 03:53 crydee wrote:
MLG should ditch the high rise office space in NYC and set up somewhere cheaper? Since it doesn't matter where you are or your customers being in NYC is just retarded when it's twice as expensive as other parts in the country. Salaries, space, food and almost everything costs more in NYC. If you cut your costs significantly perhaps this wouldn't be needed at all?
I think thats just change considering how much $ they need to fly out all the players from around the world.
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On February 14 2012 17:08 YMCApylons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:44 VirgilSC2 wrote:On February 14 2012 16:38 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:24 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:14 Raelcun wrote:On February 14 2012 16:08 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 14 2012 16:05 a9arnn wrote:Well the arena isn't a Pro Circuit event, it's an offline qualifier of sorts to precede the main event of Cbus (Seeing as the event's not open to the public/etc.). This is incorrect. Check my last post above. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/news/the-first-details-about-the-mlg-2012-pro-circuit"The 2012 MLG Pro Circuit will be made up of four distinct Seasons, each with their own Live Championship Event." The four season represent the 2012 Pro Circuit. And the winter Qualifiers are part of the season, and thus part of the Circuit. MLG would not have changed their language regarding what Gold Members recieve had this not been the case. Even if this is true encouraging people to chargeback is going to do more harm than good most likely. If a large volume of chargebacks occur on a vendor then the bank they are with is levied fines due to being associated with that vendor. The bank then usually passes those directly on to the vendor including in some cases adding a fine per chargeback that occurs afterwards. Basically if people do what you are proposing it is more likely to directly harm MLG than it is to make them change their mind on the pricing. How about you give them time to respond to feedback first? Alright guys, let me make it simple for you: Look at the Logo for the Winter Arena and tell me it isn't part of the Pro Circuit:It is not hard to determine whether or not the Arena is part of the Pro Circuit! http://pro.majorleaguegaming.com/I recommend you dispute the charge with your Credit Card company as outlined in an earlier post if you paid for a Gold or Silver membership. Let me use simple words so you can understand. Encouraging chargebacks in large volumes to MLG will only result in them paying fines if successful. Do you honestly think trying to harm MLG financially will get them to reduce prices or give out discounts you believe that they are shorting you? This is not about if the Arena is part of the pro circuit, your idea is just bad. Have to agree with Raelcun here. I'm pretty convinced that what MLG did was, if not fraudulent, extremely close to it. However, processing chargebacks on MLG is not the way to get your voice heard. I'd advise e-mailing their support (much like users, including myself, did after the Silver Renewal) and ask for a refund. That should get the message across to MLG (and hopefully get you your money back) without harming the organization in a huge way. Agreed. At face value this is well-within the boundaries of a legally-disputable claim. The question is if "HD Pro Circuit Streams" was ever more precisely defined. Can anyone with a MLG Gold Membership post up the relevant Terms & Agreements that were probably given to you as were purchasing the Gold Pass? It might have been linked in the "receipt" email you would have gotten. If MLG reserved the right to redefine which streams would be offered under the Gold Membership, than you're screwed, because you bought nothing - you should have read the fine print. But if MLG said that Gold Membership entitles you to HD Pro Circuit Streams, than you can go to court, and ask the court to find that MLG Arena falls under that category. The other approach is to show that the advertisements and promotional materials used for the Gold Membership are false and misleading, when compared with what the terms of the Gold Membership actually are. In either case, you might not win, but class-action lawsuits have been won with much less. Using credit-card chargebacks is probably not a good idea. I'm not clear on how credit-card companies handle this type of dispute, but as you are in a legal grey-area, at best, tread carefully. For a few isolated cases, like here, it is likely that the credit card company would simply eat the charge, and put a little note next to your account. Keep that pitchfork up.
Hey all, I'm relatively new to the eSports scene but I know a little bit about how Credit Card companies work (through personal, not professional experience).
It sounds to me that there are reasonable grounds to dispute membership, especially since this decision to charge for the stream has been recent. They may not have thought through thoroughly what to do with all of their gold/silver members.
Back to credit cards.
Visa, Mastercard, and Discover are all credit cards. These cards can be paid in full or overtime You can dispute a charge based on the grounds of fraud. They often times will make you wait 60 days, and make you pay the dispute, and if it is found in your favor, you get your money back.
American Express is different, because they mostly have Charge Cards, instead of Credit Cards (though they do have credit cards, just not too many).
The main difference between a charge card and a credit card, is that with Amex, the card users is the primary customer, with credit cards, the vendor is customer.
When you dispute something with amex, they automatically suspend the charge and make you immediately not liable for it while they do an investigation. Amex will also charge said dispute back to the vendor, as they do not take liability for purchases either. The reason this is because many high end customers with Amexs tend to spend more money than people will just cash, so vendors will take the risk. Also Amex has such great rewards that if you have a business that doesn't take it (in certain areas) than its tough to be in business.
Every customers has the right to challenge a purchase. Maybe MLG did something fraudulant, maybe they didn't, but that is up to the credit card companies to figure out.
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On February 15 2012 03:53 crydee wrote:
MLG should ditch the high rise office space in NYC and set up somewhere cheaper? Since it doesn't matter where you are or your customers being in NYC is just retarded when it's twice as expensive as other parts in the country. Salaries, space, food and almost everything costs more in NYC. If you cut your costs significantly perhaps this wouldn't be needed at all?
They can move across the hudson to Jersey and pay probably half as much rent, and get twice as much space.
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Want to run commercials? Fine - I actually like muting the commercial and alt-tabbing knowing I'm contributing to the stream while simultaneously NOT being assaulted by advertising.
FYI: the advertisers know that lots of peopel do that. It is precisely because of that fact that advertising doesn't pay that much per head. So you're not exactly being part of the solution here.
On February 15 2012 03:17 OpticalPhonon wrote:However, what's even more insulting to their customers is when Sundance tweets bullshit like this: "I personally (and MLG) have invested more money into the scene than we have earned. By choice. You have a choice as well. Have a good night." The community has shown time and time-again that they're willing to spend money (sending MKP to Orlando, all those Kickstarter documentaries, contributing to TB's shoutcrafts, etc.). To then accuse them of being cheap in order to try and sell them a product -- which many people with Gold memberships thought they'd already paid for -- is unbelievably sleazy.
To be a bit fair to Sundance, there is a difference between charitably helping people out and offering a product for money. You cannot rely on charity. You can't run a business purely on charity. That's why charities are non-profit organizations.
The community certainly is willing to help out individuals who are in a bad way, or funding Kickstarter programs, or whatever. But the community seems to have a certain sense of entitlement when it comes to actually getting the product itself (ie: matches). The community seems to believe that matches should be free.
I don't agree with MLG charging $20 for this event; I'm with Alex, that should have been $10 or less, with discounts (or free passes) to Gold members. But like Alex, I understand where they're coming from. eSports needs to generate its own money.
It's not about growing eSports; it's about eSports being more self-sustaining. Every sport has sponsors, but they also generate revenue directly from ticket sales, charging fees to TV networks for showing sports, etc. eSports needs some way to directly generate revenue. And while merch works to an extent, it's not enough.
On February 15 2012 03:53 crydee wrote:
MLG should ditch the high rise office space in NYC and set up somewhere cheaper? Since it doesn't matter where you are or your customers being in NYC is just retarded when it's twice as expensive as other parts in the country. Salaries, space, food and almost everything costs more in NYC. If you cut your costs significantly perhaps this wouldn't be needed at all?
I don't know about "high rise office space", but there's a reason that a hell of a lot of companies maintain a presence in New York. That's where big business is. Probably 60+% of MLG's sponsors have offices in New York. If you want to hobnob with the big boys in business, you have to have a presence in New York. Period.
Yeah, stuff costs more in NY. But MLG would probably lose more money by leaving and either losing sponsors or having to deal with sponsors via long-range travel.
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They really should consider the fact that while a very low price may seem risky, it will probably earn them a lot more money. A big part of this community are students with limited funds. For me spending a small amount of money is no problem but 20$ for a weekend tournament feels ridiculously high.
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On February 15 2012 03:17 OpticalPhonon wrote:
All of the posts by VirgilSC2 in this thread are quite good and deserve to be read. I totally agree about the bait and switch that MLG pulled and that topic deserves it's own thread.
I was going to create a thread on it because I feel if Gold and Silver members banded together and put pressure on MLG, they would be forced to change their policy. We could do so in a multitude of ways (disputing credit card charges as I recommend with my posts on page 4-6 is one way).
It is such a slam dunk bait and switch that they pulled, that a class action suit would easily win (they would likely settle long before going to court).
Unfortunately, I don't think enough people care about it do anything about it, and I think my thread would just get locked and the discussion would be redirected back here. Maybe I will write it up anyway, I think this is a really big deal because people are getting scammed.
As for me personally, I sent MLG an email regarding it, and have already contacted Amex. If MLG doesn't give me a prorated refund or allow me to watch Winter Arena free (as it is part of the 2012 Pro Circuit, again check page 4-6 of this thread) then I'll dispute the charge. I think it will be slam dunk win and I expect to get my $29.99 back, as MLG is refusing to provide the services I paid for. I'll eventually post my results in this thread or whatever.
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On February 15 2012 03:55 Shadow_Dog wrote:I guess the best way to descibe this is, too much, too soon, for too little. Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:53 crydee wrote:
MLG should ditch the high rise office space in NYC and set up somewhere cheaper? Since it doesn't matter where you are or your customers being in NYC is just retarded when it's twice as expensive as other parts in the country. Salaries, space, food and almost everything costs more in NYC. If you cut your costs significantly perhaps this wouldn't be needed at all? I think thats just change considering how much $ they need to fly out all the players from around the world.
It's more than change. Fore examp,e a salary of $100,000 in Charlotte, North Carolina should increase to $161,585 in New York, New York (cost of living calculator). MLG has 10 executives, they probably make that amount of money or more, add in all the other staff and rent for office space.. you're getting up there.
That's a lot of money to save by being somewhere cheaper and Charlotte isn't really "BFE". Plus, I thought MLG was only paying up to a certain amount for plane tickets? $600 or something like that.
I'm just stating that being in NYC when you're customers are not in NYC and their demographic is low income and price sensitive (college students, high school kids, younger people) than it doesn't make a lot of sense from an expense standpoint to run a e-sport company In one of the most expensive cities in the world.
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There shouldn't be any pitchforks really, except from the people who paid for Gold memberships and they should simply ask for a refund down the line if they feel cheated or unsatisfied.
You just can't tout eSports as a business while simultaneously trying to make it a pity party. MLG is trying to push forward a PPV model, awesome, but I can't see myself investing money when so much great content is available at little to no cost. Most people make exceptions for the GSL when it comes to opening their wallets for paid Starcraft content.
It's just that simple, I don't see value in it for $20, i don't see myself buying it at $10, I barely see myself opening my wallet at $5. When I look at the roster for Assembly Winter 2012 and see some really strong names that have the potential for some really great games, I honestly can't bring myself to shell out $20/$15/$10 to watch something very similar, while I could be watching that for free. It doesn't make sense to me.
It's genuinely that simple. If you want to try and sell it based on making the industry work, then sorry, the product isn't worth my money when it's the only one that adopts such a model.
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the product that mlg puts out isnt worth more than 5 bucks tops plain and simple.
instead of thinking of ways to squeeze every last cent out of us maybe sundance should work on putting out a better product so that more people watch, tell their friends, get hooked, and then once the number is high enough we can start making more money
does anyone pay attention in economics classes anymore?
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Why do people always talk about profit/loss with MLG...? IT DOESNT MATTER.... We are the customers, not stockholders\owners...
If the product is worth buying then buy it... I have been a supporter of MLG as a Gold Member but there is a point where the loyalties of the customer trying to support esport stops and common sense kicks in and you stop being taken advantage of… I will not be purchasing the PPV in NYC… It is like buying a $20 hamburger… Yes it’s really good truly worth $5 or $10 at most… Am I paying $20 to make myself feel better about supporting Esports?
MLG is not the only product now available to us in the USA… We now have choices and I think I will continue supporting Esports but through another venue like IPL or Teams/players…
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On February 15 2012 04:04 NicolBolas wrote:
I don't know about "high rise office space", but there's a reason that a hell of a lot of companies maintain a presence in New York. That's where big business is. Probably 60+% of MLG's sponsors have offices in New York. If you want to hobnob with the big boys in business, you have to have a presence in New York. Period.
Yeah, stuff costs more in NY. But MLG would probably lose more money by leaving and either losing sponsors or having to deal with sponsors via long-range travel.
Travel does not cost that much compared to the cost of living between NYC and some other reasonable places. MLG isn't a big player so their not "hobnobbing" with the major marketing executives. Plenty of corporate HQ are not in NYC and it does not effect them because their not in NYC. People don't look at your zip code figure out you're not from NYC and then decide not to do business with you because you don't hold an office there.
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i like EG´s position. its quite a position to take when u have the image of bad boys and the image of just buying good people from other teams. i like it. maybe i root for EG a bit more now... ♥
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I think I'm becoming a fan of Alex. If more CEOs was like this guy, the world would be a much better place.
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$20 for a weekend is ridiculous. Outright ridiculous. They're coming out swinging with a really high price point to see if anybody is dumb enough to buy it.
All future MLG prices are based on how this very first PPV charge blows over. If you all line up like cattle and buy it because an important person (Alex) told you to, then it will be AT LEAST $20 EVERY SINGLE MLG from here on out.
Don't buy it; let it flop. I think PPV for MLG is great, but it's called $5, not $20, not even $10.
$5
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Let me see, I have 20$ to spend, and a decision: 20 hours of MLG Arena or full GSL Season + a few bears. Totally not getting the MLG pass, especially if I have free Assembly stream at the same time  If they made it 5$, I would consider getting it, and I think that it is a reasonable price, if they are also getting not too low ad revenue.
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I love Sundance and MLG. I really wish I could just pay the 20 bucks, but I am an interning College student in the US, which means I don't have lots of cash. I would obviously be more able to pay for it if it's price was reduced by 50%, but for now I will just watch the VODs or try to go to a barcraft.
I think they mentioned that they are going to revamp their subscription model stuff (MLG Gold and Silver), so maybe they will have a new Premium account that will include the HD streams and the Arenas for a year like GSL has soon.
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how come iem and ipl and god forbid even nasl can put out such far superior products without all this drama and money hoarding? what is sundance missing here or was he just raised poorly?
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On February 15 2012 04:23 Zeetox wrote:Let me see, I have 20$ to spend, and a decision: 20 hours of MLG Arena or full GSL Season + a few bears. Totally not getting the MLG pass, especially if I have free Assembly stream at the same time If they made it 5$, I would consider getting it, and I think that it is a reasonable price, if they are also getting not too low ad revenue.
were can you get bears for under $20?
Sundance is getting too fucking greedy, by expecting people to pay a ridiculous price. Since he decides to compare it to UFC were you pay $40 for 1 night, but does he realize that even with basic cable Spike tv does all the pre fights in HD, and then after that the main even is required for ppv. Now if it was this way and they broadcasted a free HQ (Which every company should do) like all the way up to at least semi finals then have you pay $5 for the semi-finals and finals they would instantly get probably anywhere from 15-20k ppl (Guesstimating) would probably buy it. But comparing this shit to UFC is ridiculous. Saying this is the way of western esports is a joke.
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I will NEVER pay to watch a game of Starcraft 2. I enjoy watching in my spare time, and I don't mind advertising. But the product is simply not worth it to me.
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On February 15 2012 04:10 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:17 OpticalPhonon wrote:
All of the posts by VirgilSC2 in this thread are quite good and deserve to be read. I totally agree about the bait and switch that MLG pulled and that topic deserves it's own thread. I was going to create a thread on it because I feel if Gold and Silver members banded together and put pressure on MLG, they would be forced to change their policy. We could do so in a multitude of ways (disputing credit card charges as I recommend with my posts on page 4-6 is one way). It is such a slam dunk bait and switch that they pulled, that a class action suit would easily win (they would likely settle long before going to court). Unfortunately, I don't think enough people care about it do anything about it, and I think my thread would just get locked and the discussion would be redirected back here. Maybe I will write it up anyway, I think this is a really big deal because people are getting scammed. As for me personally, I sent MLG an email regarding it, and have already contacted Amex. If MLG doesn't give me a prorated refund or allow me to watch Winter Arena free (as it is part of the 2012 Pro Circuit, again check page 4-6 of this thread) then I'll dispute the charge. I think it will be slam dunk win and I expect to get my $29.99 back, as MLG is refusing to provide the services I paid for. I'll eventually post my results in this thread or whatever.
Please do this. I think collective pressure from already paying members may be the most efficient way to get their attention and maybe change something. I'm a gold member and as things stand right now, I won't be renewing my membership or paying them for any new content.
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I agree with your sentiment that constructive feedback is a good way to go about that this and that we should believe MLG is willing to listen and change if their consumers want them to.
I don't believe MLG is evil, or greedy. A tournament could charge $500 dollars and I wouldn't consider them greedy, or evil (Excluding some sort of monopolistic, or collusion type situation of course). It's their decision to do whatever they want with their business and prices.
What I fear, though, is they are making a very poor business decision. Everyone out there understands businesses need to generate revenue to continue to grow. No one expects MLG to be non-profit. But you can't just make a business decision and justify it as necessary for self sustainability and then expect it to magically succeed, or expect consumers to feel obligated to support you. It doesn't matter if MLG believe this is necessary for the future of e-sports and their company. That doesn't mean it works.
We have to ground ourselves in reality here. We have to accept what viewers are willing to pay for (or not pay for) and price accordingly. There is no "should" or "fair" or "right" or "necessary." There is just reality. And if in reality, people are not willing to pay $20 for MLG's PPV, then it shouldn't happen, or it should fail. We shouldn't artificially try to make bad business models succeed by giving them money out of some feeling of obligation, or out of charity.
This is where I disagree with you. I don't think anyone who does not value the pass at $20 or more should be buying the pass. You are not "supporting" esports by buying the pass if you find the pass to not be worth $20 to you, you are giving them bad information and a false sense of profitability. Those who value it at $20 certainly should go for it. If there are enough people who truly value it at $20+ then it will be able to succeed and that's great for MLG. Those are the consumers that create a sustainable systems.
So I would plea with people that you just act as normal consumers. Buy things at the price you find acceptable, don't buy things for more than what you value them at. Then MLG will see the actual results and they can make their decision on future pricing plans based off real consumers, not donors. I don't think anybody, MLG, esports, or consumers, win by artificially high amounts of ticket purchases.
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Personally:
1) If I'm free that weekend, I'll buy it but mainly out of curiousity of seeing what the first PPV will be like for SC2. I'm pretty optimistic that MLG is going to pull off one hell of a spectacle here.
2) I think $10 makes a lot more sense. I feel that most sc2 fans cant split the cost with buddies or goto barcrafts, but I could be wrong. Anyway, MLG tournaments definitely seem worth $10, but $20 is on the brink. I'd spend $10 without blinking an eye.
3) I think gold members should get a discount (yes, I'm a gold member). It adds more real value to the gold membership. Personally, I think HD and the quad view are worth it even with free LQ, but I'm guessing a lot of other fans need a little more incentive.
Anyway, I really hope this works for MLG. I think sc2 is screwed if major tournaments require a lot of charity to pull off.
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On February 15 2012 04:29 Boblhead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:23 Zeetox wrote:Let me see, I have 20$ to spend, and a decision: 20 hours of MLG Arena or full GSL Season + a few bears. Totally not getting the MLG pass, especially if I have free Assembly stream at the same time If they made it 5$, I would consider getting it, and I think that it is a reasonable price, if they are also getting not too low ad revenue. were can you get bears for under $20? Sundance is getting too fucking greedy, by expecting people to pay a ridiculous price. Since he decides to compare it to UFC were you pay $40 for 1 night, but does he realize that even with basic cable Spike tv does all the pre fights in HD, and then after that the main even is required for ppv. Now if it was this way and they broadcasted a free HQ (Which every company should do) like all the way up to at least semi finals then have you pay $5 for the semi-finals and finals they would instantly get probably anywhere from 15-20k ppl (Guesstimating) would probably buy it. But comparing this shit to UFC is ridiculous. Saying this is the way of western esports is a joke.
Well in Finland you get few bears with 20 euros http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karhu
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I've sent a "support email" using the MLG website whilst logged in as a Gold member. Hopefully this'll get to Sundance; I couldn't find his email address and I think 140 characters on twitter is too short.
Basically I'm in category C. I think it's fine for MLG to introduce new PPV events, but (a) it's priced too high and (b) as a Gold member I feel I should get some kind of discount. Even a small discount would make me feel emotionally happier about having supported MLG by buying a subscription last year.
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I will maybe watch the voids which I can watch then when I want
As european paying $20 to mess up my sleep schedule is not a clever idea for me.
Good luck with the tournament
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PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things.
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So. I agree that we should all leave feedback for MLG. However this is where i'm kind of a noob.
Since i'm expecting this post to get buried. can someone pm me where a good spot to leave Feedback for mlg?
and perhaps the OP can like edit it at the bottom of his post?
But as for my feelings. i am just a disgruntled gold member lol. the 2nd post in this thread describes my feelings completely
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On February 15 2012 04:40 Roynalf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:29 Boblhead wrote:On February 15 2012 04:23 Zeetox wrote:Let me see, I have 20$ to spend, and a decision: 20 hours of MLG Arena or full GSL Season + a few bears. Totally not getting the MLG pass, especially if I have free Assembly stream at the same time If they made it 5$, I would consider getting it, and I think that it is a reasonable price, if they are also getting not too low ad revenue. were can you get bears for under $20? Sundance is getting too fucking greedy, by expecting people to pay a ridiculous price. Since he decides to compare it to UFC were you pay $40 for 1 night, but does he realize that even with basic cable Spike tv does all the pre fights in HD, and then after that the main even is required for ppv. Now if it was this way and they broadcasted a free HQ (Which every company should do) like all the way up to at least semi finals then have you pay $5 for the semi-finals and finals they would instantly get probably anywhere from 15-20k ppl (Guesstimating) would probably buy it. But comparing this shit to UFC is ridiculous. Saying this is the way of western esports is a joke. Well in Finland you get few bears with 20 euros http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karhu
clearly you didn't get the joke....
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On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things.
Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either.
Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen.
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The truth is for a weekend of play for $20 its way too high like look at GSL. Id gladly pay $70 for the year because you get hundreds of games you get to see the best players in the world week on week. With MLG's model they do a weekend every once in a while so why are they charging GSL prices for more sporadic content. I for one watched nearly every MLG last year and they have all been pretty good.
I was thinking of buying the gold membership for this year but when I heard of the price change and gold not covering all of the events I immediately went nope. Its good that they allow the vods to be watched for free though for the events which is a moderate comprimise since im in Ireland anyway so its a pain to watch live but then you have to put up with constant spoilers on reddit (so in this case I probably wouldn't go on reddit for a few days until I see the matches I want).
I wouldn't pay 10 dollars for 1 weekend and I definitely wouldn't spend 20. Like I get to watch NASL now for free in 1080p IPL puts out daily content for free too in 720p. Id gladly pay something like 30-40 dollars to IPL since they like GSL put out a lot of content consistantly throughout the year and if MLG did something around the price point for the entire year I would probably get it too but not having to pay the consistant 20 dollars here and there to make it cost like 100 dollars throughout the year that is just terrible and its exploitation for money of a community that loves the game.
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I really don't understand what the concern is... is $20 really that much money to people? I'm shocked. I've already spent $11 today on coffee and lunch. Did any of the upset folks see Transformers 2 in theatres? I can't imagine your reactions after sitting through that movie. You must have been ready to KILL someone after bearing witness to that steaming turd.
That said, I do kind of feel like the MLG Gold members got boned, though.
This is the worst possible reaction for the community to have. If I'm a sponsor of a SC2 event or team, I'm looking at this and saying "holy shit, these people are up in arms about $20? Are my sponsorship dollars really worth anything if they're that unwilling to spend money on something they love?"
Also, comparing the cost of MLG Winter Arena to the GSL is irrelevant. You need to view this tournament in a vacuum and ask yourself if its worth your $20. If it's not for whatever reason--you can't afford it, you'd rather spend your money on something else--then that's fine. If MLG doesn't generate enough revenue, they'll make adjustments.
I fully support the decision to make this PPV. It does kind of suck for the underage crowd who don't have credit cards and may not have access to one, though.
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On February 15 2012 04:49 Smackzilla wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things. Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either. Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen.
What do you mean no one's providing the support to teams/players it happen? MLG providence had an extremely deep lineup, including numerous koreans, all of which (save for the handful of players that did the global invitational) were flown by their teams. The fact of the matter is there's always been a dynamic between teams providing accommodation for their players while the tournaments provide a setting and venue for them to play in (with the exception of blizzard run tournaments). Hell even WCG dropped their accommodations policy last year for sc2 players, yet players still showed up. Instead of maintaining that relationship, mlg decided to change it up and are making the viewers pay for it.
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What has happened for the past few big MLG events is that my friends and I would all gather up at my house and watch the events together on the finals day. One of my friends had a silver membership and we were all set up to go and watch it in HD.
We all have lives, jobs, studies to attend to, and are not going to gather together 3 days straight and have slumber parties and pillow fights just to take advantage of the fact that only one person will be paying for the event. Their argument of pooling money together and watching it all together goes out the window here (it being a 3 day event). In this case, the $20 ppv idea is ridiculous and the only options we have is that we can either all pay for it to watch it on our own when we have time on the Friday or Saturday, then gather together on Sunday to watch it as a group (which puts the total cost for our group to be $160+) or just have one person pay for it (where he will have full Friday and Saturday access, limiting those days events to only him) and we all gather for the Sunday event as per usual ($20). The second idea here is probably what Scumbag Sundance had in mind but he obviously didn't think it through.
One other thing I'd like to point out (unless it was already mentioned in a news post) that the advertisements in the downtime of the streams better be limited or non-existent if they intend to go with this sort of business model.
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On February 15 2012 04:04 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:17 OpticalPhonon wrote:However, what's even more insulting to their customers is when Sundance tweets bullshit like this: "I personally (and MLG) have invested more money into the scene than we have earned. By choice. You have a choice as well. Have a good night." The community has shown time and time-again that they're willing to spend money (sending MKP to Orlando, all those Kickstarter documentaries, contributing to TB's shoutcrafts, etc.). To then accuse them of being cheap in order to try and sell them a product -- which many people with Gold memberships thought they'd already paid for -- is unbelievably sleazy. To be a bit fair to Sundance, there is a difference between charitably helping people out and offering a product for money. You cannot rely on charity. You can't run a business purely on charity. That's why charities are non-profit organizations. The community certainly is willing to help out individuals who are in a bad way, or funding Kickstarter programs, or whatever. But the community seems to have a certain sense of entitlement when it comes to actually getting the product itself (ie: matches). The community seems to believe that matches should be free.
Are you claiming that those documentaries are charities? With "The Sons of StarCraft" you get a copy of the movie when you pledge $20, so you're clearly buying something from the filmmakers and nowhere on that page do they use the word "donate." Also, they'll presumably sell copies of the movie once it's finished. While it is a passion project, the filmmakers still want to make money from it.
But that's besides the point: I don't agree with your assertion that "The community seems to believe that matches should be free." If anything, the consensus seems to be that "freemium" is the way to go. Events like GSL, NASL, HSC, and, up until recently, MLG have all followed this model and received little to no criticism for it. Maybe this model isn't sustainable and PPV is the future -- there's already pages of discussion on that in here and in the main PPV thread and I have no insight into the finances of these tournaments. My only issue is with the bait and switch MLG pulled while moving into the PPV realm. VirgilSC2 has written about this earlier in this thread and so I won't repeat his points here.
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This is a rather scumbag move when you have thousands of people pay for a year subscription last year believing you would get to watch all MLG content for the next year and then they do this. I would of never paid for the year of Gold if I knew this crap was to happen. If I were to cancel my subscription would I get a refund?
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On February 15 2012 04:53 FlukyS wrote:
The truth is for a weekend of play for $20 its way too high like look at GSL.
MLG is not competing against GSL. Totally irrelevant.
For example: McDonalds charges $3.29 for a cheeseburger + fries (I have no idea what they actually charge) and a restaurant charges $12.99 for a cheeseburger + fries. These price points don't matter because they're not competing with each other.
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On February 15 2012 05:01 hibbleton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:53 FlukyS wrote:
The truth is for a weekend of play for $20 its way too high like look at GSL. MLG is not competing against GSL. Totally irrelevant. For example: McDonalds charges $3.29 for a cheeseburger + fries (I have no idea what they actually charge) and a restaurant charges $12.99 for a cheeseburger + fries. These price points don't matter because they're not competing with each other.
They are competing, but they have different audiences. The audience for GSL and MLG is the same
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They should have low quality stream like last year. Not sure why they have to be so greedy.
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On February 15 2012 05:01 hibbleton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:53 FlukyS wrote:
The truth is for a weekend of play for $20 its way too high like look at GSL. MLG is not competing against GSL. Totally irrelevant. For example: McDonalds charges $3.29 for a cheeseburger + fries (I have no idea what they actually charge) and a restaurant charges $12.99 for a cheeseburger + fries. These price points don't matter because they're not competing with each other.
They might not be directly competing, but the end product is essentially the same. Both are serving burgers/fries while both gsl and mlg are serving high level starcraft 2 matches. If you can't get that thought through your head then i just dont know what to say.
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On February 15 2012 04:49 Smackzilla wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things. Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either. Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen.
I don't see the point of saying MLG is doing more this year. Everything MLG added this year is going to be funned by the community. This isn't really an improvement. This is similar to if a president said all food is now free and increased income tax by 10%. All the great proposed improvements MLG came up for this year, are all going to funded for by its fan base. I personally don't think it's fair or good for esports
This hasn't been discussed but MLG's prize pools have always been terrible. The company just comes off to greedy in my eyes. Last year the money they charged players to enter the tournament, was more then the total prize pool. So where did all the money go that was funded from entrance tickets, advertising and paid HD streams? I think some executives are really making some big money over at MLG and with this PPV format they intend to make much more. Now I'm all for a company making a profit but MLG seems to be over the top greedy, they seem to be more interested in profits then anything else.
These decisions will untimely hurt MLG ratings, massively. I find it ironic they are aliening their viewers after bragging so much last year about how many views they had. Most likely they will lower the price to $10 and the community will see them as heroes. I have decided with this ploy I will not pay anything to watch MLG, I am currently discussed with their business practices.
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On February 15 2012 05:03 Tarotis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:01 hibbleton wrote:On February 15 2012 04:53 FlukyS wrote:
The truth is for a weekend of play for $20 its way too high like look at GSL. MLG is not competing against GSL. Totally irrelevant. For example: McDonalds charges $3.29 for a cheeseburger + fries (I have no idea what they actually charge) and a restaurant charges $12.99 for a cheeseburger + fries. These price points don't matter because they're not competing with each other. They are competing, but they have different audiences. The audience for GSL and MLG is the same
It's not fair to say they're competing at all. That implies that I have to choose between one or the other, which isn't the case. I can choose both of them, I can choose one or I can choose neither.
These tournaments all exist independently and it's up to you to choose which ones you want to watch and how much you're willing to spend. MLG has done a fantastic job of putting together an amazing lineup of players and I'm happy to give them my $20 to watch them.
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On February 15 2012 05:05 Ricemagical wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:01 hibbleton wrote:On February 15 2012 04:53 FlukyS wrote:
The truth is for a weekend of play for $20 its way too high like look at GSL. MLG is not competing against GSL. Totally irrelevant. For example: McDonalds charges $3.29 for a cheeseburger + fries (I have no idea what they actually charge) and a restaurant charges $12.99 for a cheeseburger + fries. These price points don't matter because they're not competing with each other. They might not be directly competing, but the end product is essentially the same. Both are serving burgers/fries while both gsl and mlg are serving high level starcraft 2 matches. If you can't get that thought through your head then i just dont know what to say.
Maybe my analogy wasn't the best but the fact remains it doesn't matter what the GSL charges for their high level StarCraft 2 matches. MLG is charging $20 for theirs and it's up to you if you want to pay for it or not.
For what it's worth, I have a GSL yearly subscription and I'll be buying the MLG Winter Arena PPV.
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On February 15 2012 05:09 hibbleton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:03 Tarotis wrote:On February 15 2012 05:01 hibbleton wrote:On February 15 2012 04:53 FlukyS wrote:
The truth is for a weekend of play for $20 its way too high like look at GSL. MLG is not competing against GSL. Totally irrelevant. For example: McDonalds charges $3.29 for a cheeseburger + fries (I have no idea what they actually charge) and a restaurant charges $12.99 for a cheeseburger + fries. These price points don't matter because they're not competing with each other. They are competing, but they have different audiences. The audience for GSL and MLG is the same It's not fair to say they're competing at all. That implies that I have to choose between one or the other, which isn't the case. I can choose both of them, I can choose one or I can choose neither.
Thats actually completely wrong. Its like saying "Giants vs Patriots is no competition, i could cheer for both teams".
Or saying that the eu-car industry is not competing against the us-car industry, because you could buy both cars, right? You will say now, yeah, i cant compare that because cars are so expensive, where the GSL and stuff is peanuts compared to that - right. But it boils down to exactly that. Of course you can pay for both leagues. But most of the people will just pay for ONE. And thats the one with better value.
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Great post, great logic, thank you.
I would gladly pay $10 for the event, but I think $20 is way too much. If you think about everything that we get as Gold Members, or everything we get as GSL subscribers, or everything we get as members of just about any other event, I just think that $20 is way too much for what we'd be getting. $10 I'd do without even thinking about it, $20 I just can't. I want to watch high quality StarCraft 2 content, and I want to support eSports, but yeah. It's not that $20 is a lot of money, because it's not (to me anyway), it's just that it becomes too much money when you compare it to what we're getting for similar elsewhere.
3 days of streaming for $20 ... not very enticing, especially if it's anything like other MLG events (Which are amazing btw, I'm not bashing MLG at all) where quite a bit of the air time is filled with downtime, advertisements, and shots of the crowd between matches. Which is something I don't mind because normally I'm thinking "Aw yeah it's okay I only paid a very small amount of money for this and it's awesome!." - I think they'd be more likely to sell this at the $20 price point if there wasn't another major event scheduled for the same time slot - I still think it would be overpriced, but I think they'd get more sales. As someone that easily makes enough money to be able to afford the event I know that for me it's a very easy choice to watch the other event that weekend instead, so I imagine for people less fortunate it's an even easier choice.
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This thread to me just looks like a way of justifying PPV's with a lower cost. I don't like the idea of PPV period, and I feel like this community will agree to anything as long as a nice person writes a long post with an apologetic theme to it.
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There really should be a "wouldn't pay as long as mlg coincides with other major and free to watch tournaments" option in the poll
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I think for $20, Sundance should follow every customer on Twitter.
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On February 15 2012 04:43 Boblhead wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:40 Roynalf wrote:On February 15 2012 04:29 Boblhead wrote:On February 15 2012 04:23 Zeetox wrote:Let me see, I have 20$ to spend, and a decision: 20 hours of MLG Arena or full GSL Season + a few bears. Totally not getting the MLG pass, especially if I have free Assembly stream at the same time If they made it 5$, I would consider getting it, and I think that it is a reasonable price, if they are also getting not too low ad revenue. were can you get bears for under $20? Sundance is getting too fucking greedy, by expecting people to pay a ridiculous price. Since he decides to compare it to UFC were you pay $40 for 1 night, but does he realize that even with basic cable Spike tv does all the pre fights in HD, and then after that the main even is required for ppv. Now if it was this way and they broadcasted a free HQ (Which every company should do) like all the way up to at least semi finals then have you pay $5 for the semi-finals and finals they would instantly get probably anywhere from 15-20k ppl (Guesstimating) would probably buy it. But comparing this shit to UFC is ridiculous. Saying this is the way of western esports is a joke. Well in Finland you get few bears with 20 euros http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karhu clearly you didn't get the joke....
Clealy I did get the joke. Karhu finnish word for bear also a beer mark so in Finland there is bear beer.
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On February 15 2012 05:15 Gentso wrote:
This thread to me just looks like a way of justifying PPV's with a lower cost. I don't like the idea of PPV period, and I feel like this community will agree to anything as long as a nice person writes a long post with an apologetic theme to it.
What makes you think that? Im old enough to make my own choices (will be 30 this month.. ) - and the idea of PPV is not a bad idea in general. But you have to be realistic. 20 bucks? Never. Ever. Its a ripoff par excellence. Especially considering that you "could" pay HSC4 as well. 6 Dollars (well, 5€, but should be around 6$ somewhere).
Thats reasonable. I can justify that. So its not that i agree because a "nice" person said something (who the fuck, i dont even know the "person" which wrote the initial posting - never saw his name before), its because i think i can pay for stuff, if the price is equal to what i think its worth. MLG is not (20$).
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On February 15 2012 04:49 Smackzilla wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things. Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either. Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen.
You assume they lose money just because they claim they do. MLG been around a long time and keeps losing money. How the fuck are they still around then??? What I am getting at is why is this a buisness if there is never any profit made? When they prove they need the money then I will believe they need the money. Until then I call bullshit. Then on top of that 2009 MLG had 50 million in revenue. If they're losing money while pulling in 50 million they're doing something wrong and deserve to fail. Then with a poor economy they say hey instead of holding our normal tournament the cheap way lets find a way to organize a tournament that costs a fuck ton of money for us to pull off. Meanwhile alienating our fans and sponsors at the same time.
I don't always come up with a shitty buisness model, but when I do it is a MLG event.
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On February 15 2012 05:19 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:15 Gentso wrote:
This thread to me just looks like a way of justifying PPV's with a lower cost. I don't like the idea of PPV period, and I feel like this community will agree to anything as long as a nice person writes a long post with an apologetic theme to it. What makes you think that? Im old enough to make my own choices (will be 30 this month.. ) - and the idea of PPV is not a bad idea in general. But you have to be realistic. 20 bucks? Never. Ever. Its a ripoff par excellence. Especially considering that you "could" pay HSC4 as well. 6 Dollars (well, 5€, but should be around 6$ somewhere). Thats reasonable. I can justify that. So its not that i agree because a "nice" person said something (who the fuck, i dont even know the "person" which wrote the initial posting - never saw his name before), its because i think i can pay for stuff, if the price is equal to what i think its worth. MLG is not (20$).
I think the concern most people have with ppv is that the esports industry has always been able to sustain itself on freemium, and to state that their losing money when they're getting record viewers seems absolutely absurd. And if this model does prove to be viable for mlg then other tournaments might follow suit to a point in which people would have to decide which tournaments to watch or perhaps even not be able to watch at all, reducing the esports community as a whole, even if the esports tournaments themselves gain more money.
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I agree that organizations need to become less reliant on sponsorships and other outside sources of revenue. I wonder why more teams do not sell team shirts, similar to the way sports teams sell jerseys. I would definitely spend money on team apparel of my favorite teams.
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On February 15 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:49 Smackzilla wrote:On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things. Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either. Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen. You assume they lose money just because they claim they do. MLG been around a long time and keeps losing money. How the fuck are they still around then??? What I am getting at is why is this a buisness if there is never any profit made? When they prove they need the money then I will believe they need the money. Until then I call bullshit. Then on top of that 2009 MLG had 50 million in revenue. If they're losing money while pulling in 50 million they're doing something wrong and deserve to fail. Then with a poor economy they say hey instead of holding our normal tournament the cheap way lets find a way to organize a tournament that costs a fuck ton of money for us to pull off. Meanwhile alienating our fans and sponsors at the same time. I don't always come up with a shitty buisness model, but when I do it is a MLG event.
Add in that MLG is offering less content and competition for a price much higher than their competitors and that's their business model that they want us to believe is the future of NA Esports. :\ That's what I can't stand. GSL offered AOL for 5 dollars... I bought that, in a heartbeat.
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On February 15 2012 05:01 hibbleton wrote:
MLG is not competing against GSL. Totally irrelevant.
For example: McDonalds charges $3.29 for a cheeseburger + fries (I have no idea what they actually charge) and a restaurant charges $12.99 for a cheeseburger + fries. These price points don't matter because they're not competing with each other.
Well they are now comparable on price if you take the 20 dollars as a price point for the rest of the year it will be like 100 dollars for the year to watch MLG, I paid 70 dollars for my GSL light subsciption (I dont mind the ads and I dont really see much value in the rest of the services). Like im just going to put this out there that I dont think MLG is worth 30 dollars more than GSL for a year.
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United States22883 Posts
On February 15 2012 05:11 hibbleton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:05 Ricemagical wrote:On February 15 2012 05:01 hibbleton wrote:On February 15 2012 04:53 FlukyS wrote:
The truth is for a weekend of play for $20 its way too high like look
at GSL. MLG is not competing against GSL. Totally irrelevant. For example: McDonalds charges $3.29 for a cheeseburger + fries (I have no idea what they actually charge) and a restaurant charges $12.99 for a cheeseburger + fries. These price points don't matter because they're not competing with each other. They might not be directly competing, but the end product is essentially the same. Both are serving burgers/fries while both gsl and mlg are serving high level starcraft 2 matches. If you can't get that thought through your head then i just dont know what to say. Maybe my analogy wasn't the best but the fact remains it doesn't matter what the GSL charges for their high level StarCraft 2 matches. MLG is charging $20 for theirs and it's up to you if you want to pay for it or not. For what it's worth, I have a GSL yearly subscription and I'll be buying the MLG Winter Arena PPV.
The analogy is the problem because, presumably, there is a limit to how many cheese burgers you can eat. It's more comparable to the price of admission between a professional and collegiate sports game. For those who decide "I will only spend __ dollars this year on basketball", GSL is a better value purely for number of games (there's other issues which I won't get into here.) For someone who says "I fucking love basketball", they're more likely to go to both games, as long as the times don't overlap.
So it's a mix, depending on the market. I like watching good SC2 but I've got a fairly low budget for it, and it's lower on my list than it used to be. That said, I've usually preferred the MLG experience, commercials and all, to the GSL one and I don't particularly trust GOM with my information anymore. I also like Sundance and I think he usually does do right by the fans. I'm supporting MLG more than I'm supporting ESPORTS.
That said, MLG should absolutely lower costs for future events. Flying so many players and hosting a large event in NYC is obviously a huge burden. TSL's model may not be ideal for what they're trying to achieve, but there's a lot of middle ground there. On top of that, 4 streams is simply too much. It's too much for a fan to follow, it's a lot of extra bandwidth and it's a lot of extra casters. Each subsequent big name caster (the expensive ones) after Day9 has less and less draw, so you're losing value. Finally, I think a discount for Gold members should've been a no-brainer.
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On February 15 2012 05:25 Ricemagical wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:19 m4inbrain wrote:On February 15 2012 05:15 Gentso wrote:
This thread to me just looks like a way of justifying PPV's with a lower cost. I don't like the idea of PPV period, and I feel like this community will agree to anything as long as a nice person writes a long post with an apologetic theme to it. What makes you think that? Im old enough to make my own choices (will be 30 this month.. ) - and the idea of PPV is not a bad idea in general. But you have to be realistic. 20 bucks? Never. Ever. Its a ripoff par excellence. Especially considering that you "could" pay HSC4 as well. 6 Dollars (well, 5€, but should be around 6$ somewhere). Thats reasonable. I can justify that. So its not that i agree because a "nice" person said something (who the fuck, i dont even know the "person" which wrote the initial posting - never saw his name before), its because i think i can pay for stuff, if the price is equal to what i think its worth. MLG is not (20$). I think the concern most people have with ppv is that the esports industry has always been able to sustain itself on freemium, and to state that their losing money when they're getting record viewers seems absolutely absurd. And if this model does prove to be viable for mlg then other tournaments might follow suit to a point in which people would have to decide which tournaments to watch or perhaps even not be able to watch at all, reducing the esports community as a whole, even if the esports tournaments themselves gain more money.
I was not defending MLG or anything, quite the opposite. In the other thread i already wrote that i dont believe any of the BS MLG dishes out about losing money. They certainly dont (otherwise they would be gone).
Then a statement from twitter like this:
"Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance
@fspikec guy who priced an created Gold did bad math and built in too much. Trying to move beyond it."
And you get even more the impression that someone is trying to f you over.
And well.. Its not a bad thing to decide which tournament you want to watch, as long as there is the HSC. ;P
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On February 15 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 04:49 Smackzilla wrote:On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things. Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either. Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen. You assume they lose money just because they claim they do. MLG been around a long time and keeps losing money. How the fuck are they still around then??? What I am getting at is why is this a buisness if there is never any profit made? When they prove they need the money then I will believe they need the money. Until then I call bullshit. Then on top of that 2009 MLG had 50 million in revenue. If they're losing money while pulling in 50 million they're doing something wrong and deserve to fail. Then with a poor economy they say hey instead of holding our normal tournament the cheap way lets find a way to organize a tournament that costs a fuck ton of money for us to pull off. Meanwhile alienating our fans and sponsors at the same time. I don't always come up with a shitty buisness model, but when I do it is a MLG event.
You just called receiving venture capital as revenue...quite the opposite of revenue it is actually.
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On February 15 2012 05:33 SirScoots wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:On February 15 2012 04:49 Smackzilla wrote:On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things. Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either. Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen. You assume they lose money just because they claim they do. MLG been around a long time and keeps losing money. How the fuck are they still around then??? What I am getting at is why is this a buisness if there is never any profit made? When they prove they need the money then I will believe they need the money. Until then I call bullshit. Then on top of that 2009 MLG had 50 million in revenue. If they're losing money while pulling in 50 million they're doing something wrong and deserve to fail. Then with a poor economy they say hey instead of holding our normal tournament the cheap way lets find a way to organize a tournament that costs a fuck ton of money for us to pull off. Meanwhile alienating our fans and sponsors at the same time. I don't always come up with a shitty buisness model, but when I do it is a MLG event. You just called receiving venture capital as revenue...quite the opposite of revenue it is actually.
Scoots just go yoda on us? =)
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On February 15 2012 05:33 SirScoots wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:On February 15 2012 04:49 Smackzilla wrote:On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things. Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either. Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen. You assume they lose money just because they claim they do. MLG been around a long time and keeps losing money. How the fuck are they still around then??? What I am getting at is why is this a buisness if there is never any profit made? When they prove they need the money then I will believe they need the money. Until then I call bullshit. Then on top of that 2009 MLG had 50 million in revenue. If they're losing money while pulling in 50 million they're doing something wrong and deserve to fail. Then with a poor economy they say hey instead of holding our normal tournament the cheap way lets find a way to organize a tournament that costs a fuck ton of money for us to pull off. Meanwhile alienating our fans and sponsors at the same time. I don't always come up with a shitty buisness model, but when I do it is a MLG event. You just called receiving venture capital as revenue...quite the opposite of revenue it is actually.
No actually MLG said they projected 50 million in revenue... whethere they actually did is another matter. (2009 was a sucky year for the economy). See: http://www.fnatic.com/scene/6582/mlg-50-million-in-revenue-this-year.html
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I have voted incorrectly.... fuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!!!!!!
I meant to vote that I would pay $20, but if they brought it down to $10, i would still buy it. If there's a way to change my vote or revoke it so i can revote, that would be sweet. Thanks!
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Sorry, I was too busy laughing that he just called 50mil in VC actual revenue and I could not think straight as I typed!
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Btw, I would encourage people NOT to pay MORE THAN YOU THINK ITS WORTH "just to support esports".
Because the effect will be the opposite. If they make just enough money the PPV idea will keep on rolling and spreading and then your 20$ to support esports will turn into you always having to pay more than you really thought it was worth.
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On February 15 2012 05:27 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:On February 15 2012 04:49 Smackzilla wrote:On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things. Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either. Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen. You assume they lose money just because they claim they do. MLG been around a long time and keeps losing money. How the fuck are they still around then??? What I am getting at is why is this a buisness if there is never any profit made? When they prove they need the money then I will believe they need the money. Until then I call bullshit. Then on top of that 2009 MLG had 50 million in revenue. If they're losing money while pulling in 50 million they're doing something wrong and deserve to fail. Then with a poor economy they say hey instead of holding our normal tournament the cheap way lets find a way to organize a tournament that costs a fuck ton of money for us to pull off. Meanwhile alienating our fans and sponsors at the same time. I don't always come up with a shitty buisness model, but when I do it is a MLG event. Add in that MLG is offering less content and competition for a price much higher than their competitors and that's their business model that they want us to believe is the future of NA Esports. :\ That's what I can't stand. GSL offered AOL for 5 dollars... I bought that, in a heartbeat.
I keep hearing this, and it's so blatantly wrong it hurts.
Last year: 6 Pro-circuit events with shitty seeding.
This year: 4 Pro-circuit events with better seeding, Arena qualifiers (free), 7 Arenas (free one week after they air).
By my count, that is more, not less.
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On February 15 2012 05:33 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:25 Ricemagical wrote:On February 15 2012 05:19 m4inbrain wrote:On February 15 2012 05:15 Gentso wrote:
This thread to me just looks like a way of justifying PPV's with a lower cost. I don't like the idea of PPV period, and I feel like this community will agree to anything as long as a nice person writes a long post with an apologetic theme to it. What makes you think that? Im old enough to make my own choices (will be 30 this month.. ) - and the idea of PPV is not a bad idea in general. But you have to be realistic. 20 bucks? Never. Ever. Its a ripoff par excellence. Especially considering that you "could" pay HSC4 as well. 6 Dollars (well, 5€, but should be around 6$ somewhere). Thats reasonable. I can justify that. So its not that i agree because a "nice" person said something (who the fuck, i dont even know the "person" which wrote the initial posting - never saw his name before), its because i think i can pay for stuff, if the price is equal to what i think its worth. MLG is not (20$). I think the concern most people have with ppv is that the esports industry has always been able to sustain itself on freemium, and to state that their losing money when they're getting record viewers seems absolutely absurd. And if this model does prove to be viable for mlg then other tournaments might follow suit to a point in which people would have to decide which tournaments to watch or perhaps even not be able to watch at all, reducing the esports community as a whole, even if the esports tournaments themselves gain more money. I was not defending MLG or anything, quite the opposite. In the other thread i already wrote that i dont believe any of the BS MLG dishes out about losing money. They certainly dont (otherwise they would be gone). Then a statement from twitter like this: "Sundance DiGiovanni @MLGSundance @fspikec guy who priced an created Gold did bad math and built in too much. Trying to move beyond it." And you get even more the impression that someone is trying to f you over. And well.. Its not a bad thing to decide which tournament you want to watch, as long as there is the HSC. ;P
Reading this sounds like "we fucked up so we need more money from you guys to keep going". Really? I mean kudos for being open about this kind of thing (if that's correct) but that's really not the point here. You can't just say "we fuck you over because we initially fucked ourselves over by accident". If a business makes a mistake it has to live with the consequences. They tried to put out a new product to make some profits but they chose to create it with far too high costs while not keeping their existing customers happy. I doubt 20$ is the optimal price point revenue wise and I doubt running it in NYC when you don't even have a live audience is the best way to do it. It will hopefully run smoothly and you'll need a lot less staff to run it but honestly, who cares for three days of games straight? Nobody watches all of that. You can't even argue you'd get 20h of entertainment for your 20$ because only a fraction of the consumers will watch that much. We have other stuff to do, guys...and paying 20$ for having the stream on maybe 9h overall (and that's optimistic for many) seems less and less appealing for somebody who already pays for gold especially. Could have simply put a bit extra on the gold price and then wait for it to smooth out. If you're working on a super thin line cash flow wise you may be overspending...
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On February 15 2012 05:47 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:27 SupLilSon wrote:On February 15 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:On February 15 2012 04:49 Smackzilla wrote:On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things. Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either. Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen. You assume they lose money just because they claim they do. MLG been around a long time and keeps losing money. How the fuck are they still around then??? What I am getting at is why is this a buisness if there is never any profit made? When they prove they need the money then I will believe they need the money. Until then I call bullshit. Then on top of that 2009 MLG had 50 million in revenue. If they're losing money while pulling in 50 million they're doing something wrong and deserve to fail. Then with a poor economy they say hey instead of holding our normal tournament the cheap way lets find a way to organize a tournament that costs a fuck ton of money for us to pull off. Meanwhile alienating our fans and sponsors at the same time. I don't always come up with a shitty buisness model, but when I do it is a MLG event. Add in that MLG is offering less content and competition for a price much higher than their competitors and that's their business model that they want us to believe is the future of NA Esports. :\ That's what I can't stand. GSL offered AOL for 5 dollars... I bought that, in a heartbeat. I keep hearing this, and it's so blatantly wrong it hurts. Last year: 6 Pro-circuit events with shitty seeding. This year: 4 Pro-circuit events with better seeding, Arena qualifiers (free), 7 Arenas (free one week after they air). By my count, that is more, not less.
Wait, where did you get the 7 Arenas from? I thought there were only 4, one for each Championship. The way I see it, in terms of major events, we go from 6 last year to 8 this year, but 4 of which are PPV, which means that 4 should be available to general viewership.
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On February 15 2012 05:51 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:47 babylon wrote:On February 15 2012 05:27 SupLilSon wrote:On February 15 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:On February 15 2012 04:49 Smackzilla wrote:On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things. Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either. Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen. You assume they lose money just because they claim they do. MLG been around a long time and keeps losing money. How the fuck are they still around then??? What I am getting at is why is this a buisness if there is never any profit made? When they prove they need the money then I will believe they need the money. Until then I call bullshit. Then on top of that 2009 MLG had 50 million in revenue. If they're losing money while pulling in 50 million they're doing something wrong and deserve to fail. Then with a poor economy they say hey instead of holding our normal tournament the cheap way lets find a way to organize a tournament that costs a fuck ton of money for us to pull off. Meanwhile alienating our fans and sponsors at the same time. I don't always come up with a shitty buisness model, but when I do it is a MLG event. Add in that MLG is offering less content and competition for a price much higher than their competitors and that's their business model that they want us to believe is the future of NA Esports. :\ That's what I can't stand. GSL offered AOL for 5 dollars... I bought that, in a heartbeat. I keep hearing this, and it's so blatantly wrong it hurts. Last year: 6 Pro-circuit events with shitty seeding. This year: 4 Pro-circuit events with better seeding, Arena qualifiers (free), 7 Arenas (free one week after they air). By my count, that is more, not less. Wait, where did you get the 7 Arenas from? I thought there were only 4, one for each Championship. The way I see it, in terms of major events, we go from 6 last year to 8 this year, but 4 of which are PPV, which means that 4 should be available to general viewership.
Its still more contenet as a whole not less especially if you inculde the 3 sets of qualifiers that delivered some great games.
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I spent ~70 dollars for an entire YEAR of GSL. MLG wants 20 for 3 days of coverage. Idc how many games they broadcast or how high the resolution is those number simply don't add up.
Furthermore using MLGs VOD system has been nothing but a nightmare for the past year (at least in my personal experience those who I've talked to.) Whereas GOM's VOD system is timely, organized, and perfectly acceptable quality (looks fine on my 46 in TV )
Thirdly MLG just tried to weasel me out of 10 bucks by ninja changing the terms of my subscription 5 days after it renewed. And put the responsibility on ME to fix it.
Point being I am very disappointed in MLG, ESPECIALLY when you compare it to GOM (who has a freaking language barrier and 14 hour time difference to overcome)
I will not be buying a $20 weekend pass, nor will I be wasting my time with ANOTHER email to MLG support (they are the first thing to come up when I type M in my correspondence line-- I see that as a very bad thing lol)
All that being said, I appreciated the write up from EG
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Thanks for the post on your position. Even if we promote their product I would bet $20.00 that nobody remembers to enter the code they are given if they were to buy it... I don't know about this XD
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On February 15 2012 05:51 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:47 babylon wrote:On February 15 2012 05:27 SupLilSon wrote:On February 15 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:On February 15 2012 04:49 Smackzilla wrote:On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things. Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either. Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen. You assume they lose money just because they claim they do. MLG been around a long time and keeps losing money. How the fuck are they still around then??? What I am getting at is why is this a buisness if there is never any profit made? When they prove they need the money then I will believe they need the money. Until then I call bullshit. Then on top of that 2009 MLG had 50 million in revenue. If they're losing money while pulling in 50 million they're doing something wrong and deserve to fail. Then with a poor economy they say hey instead of holding our normal tournament the cheap way lets find a way to organize a tournament that costs a fuck ton of money for us to pull off. Meanwhile alienating our fans and sponsors at the same time. I don't always come up with a shitty buisness model, but when I do it is a MLG event. Add in that MLG is offering less content and competition for a price much higher than their competitors and that's their business model that they want us to believe is the future of NA Esports. :\ That's what I can't stand. GSL offered AOL for 5 dollars... I bought that, in a heartbeat. I keep hearing this, and it's so blatantly wrong it hurts. Last year: 6 Pro-circuit events with shitty seeding. This year: 4 Pro-circuit events with better seeding, Arena qualifiers (free), 7 Arenas (free one week after they air). By my count, that is more, not less. Wait, where did you get the 7 Arenas from? I thought there were only 4, one for each Championship. The way I see it, in terms of major events, we go from 6 last year to 8 this year, but 4 of which are PPV, which means that 4 should be available to general viewership.
Sundance tweeted that there would be 6-7, I believe.
It's not like the games will be locked behind a paywall forever. If you want to watch the games for free, watch it one week later. That's free content, IMO.
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On February 15 2012 05:47 Thombur wrote:
Btw, I would encourage people NOT to pay MORE THAN YOU THINK ITS WORTH "just to support esports".
Because the effect will be the opposite. If they make just enough money the PPV idea will keep on rolling and spreading and then your 20$ to support esports will turn into you always having to pay more than you really thought it was worth.
I actually also encourage this. While I want more than anything for Esports to grow, only buy what you want. Don't buy things just because you think it supports Esports - Buy it because you want it, and as a secondary reasoning, you can say you're supporting Esports.
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I am a full time student and i have a monthly income of 250 ( after bills ) ... sry MLG i just cant afford it at all.. GL..
Sc2 is a rich people game now ?!?! hahah IM j/k
But really its the same reason i stopped watching GSL.. There is so much Quality free content out there
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On February 15 2012 05:47 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:27 SupLilSon wrote:On February 15 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:On February 15 2012 04:49 Smackzilla wrote:On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things. Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either. Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen. You assume they lose money just because they claim they do. MLG been around a long time and keeps losing money. How the fuck are they still around then??? What I am getting at is why is this a buisness if there is never any profit made? When they prove they need the money then I will believe they need the money. Until then I call bullshit. Then on top of that 2009 MLG had 50 million in revenue. If they're losing money while pulling in 50 million they're doing something wrong and deserve to fail. Then with a poor economy they say hey instead of holding our normal tournament the cheap way lets find a way to organize a tournament that costs a fuck ton of money for us to pull off. Meanwhile alienating our fans and sponsors at the same time. I don't always come up with a shitty buisness model, but when I do it is a MLG event. Add in that MLG is offering less content and competition for a price much higher than their competitors and that's their business model that they want us to believe is the future of NA Esports. :\ That's what I can't stand. GSL offered AOL for 5 dollars... I bought that, in a heartbeat. I keep hearing this, and it's so blatantly wrong it hurts. Last year: 6 Pro-circuit events with shitty seeding. This year: 4 Pro-circuit events with better seeding, Arena qualifiers (free), 7 Arenas (free one week after they air). By my count, that is more, not less.
The highlight you made clearly states "than their competitors", not last years MLG.
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20$ is too high but i am still thinking about speding 20 to watch it anyway... and i am poor too =/
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On February 15 2012 03:02 TUski wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 02:39 RvB wrote:On February 15 2012 02:25 TUski wrote:
Are you guys serious? There were just as many people who aren't willing to pay at all as there were who would shell out $10? If you honestly can't afford $10 for 20 hours of gameplay and content, you seriously need to take the metaphorical stick out of your ass and think about what you're conveying to MLG and other tournaments. You're not willing to pay a dime because you're entitled to free content 100% of the time? How many tournaments do you think will aim to please the fans as much as MLG has if you idiots aren't willing to pay at all for the content they provide? $10 is a solid, reasonable amount for a weekend of starcraft, not to mention the amazing production quality that MLG provides us every tournament. Look at how far they've come since Columbus last year, then think about where they can go with $10 per viewer for each event.
MLG is headed in the right direction. I hope you guys who think you're entitled to herp derp free content wake/grow up. Why dont you grow up yourself, i just dont think mlg is worth 20 bucks. Its at night, their stream always sucks for me and their are better alternatives that are cheaper (gsl). Plus the only thing that makes mlg worth it for me(the crowd) isn't even there this event. No need to be such an ass because people dont agree with you Look at the second sentence of my post again. Then look at yours.
Replace 20 bucks with 10 bucks, it doesn't change a whole lot. 10 dollars for a 3 day event is just to much especially when there are free alternatives that are at a good time for me and where I get a stream that I dont have to restart after every match with a crowd.
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I guess EG isn't so Evil after all
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On February 15 2012 05:14 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:09 hibbleton wrote:On February 15 2012 05:03 Tarotis wrote:On February 15 2012 05:01 hibbleton wrote:On February 15 2012 04:53 FlukyS wrote:
The truth is for a weekend of play for $20 its way too high like look at GSL. MLG is not competing against GSL. Totally irrelevant. For example: McDonalds charges $3.29 for a cheeseburger + fries (I have no idea what they actually charge) and a restaurant charges $12.99 for a cheeseburger + fries. These price points don't matter because they're not competing with each other. They are competing, but they have different audiences. The audience for GSL and MLG is the same It's not fair to say they're competing at all. That implies that I have to choose between one or the other, which isn't the case. I can choose both of them, I can choose one or I can choose neither. Thats actually completely wrong. Its like saying "Giants vs Patriots is no competition, i could cheer for both teams". Or saying that the eu-car industry is not competing against the us-car industry, because you could buy both cars, right? You will say now, yeah, i cant compare that because cars are so expensive, where the GSL and stuff is peanuts compared to that - right. But it boils down to exactly that. Of course you can pay for both leagues. But most of the people will just pay for ONE. And thats the one with better value.
Haha, maybe I just suck at analogies. I guess I just disagree that it's a binary situation where you have to choose GSL or MLG. Maybe I'm just in the minority here but I'm out to consume as much eSports as I can. Of course, there has to be value in it: I'm not going to spend $50 to watch amateur casters cast amateur matches. But $20 for premium casters (I'd hope) casting professional matches? Sign me up.
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On February 15 2012 06:16 Thombur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:47 babylon wrote:On February 15 2012 05:27 SupLilSon wrote:On February 15 2012 05:21 NoobSkills wrote:On February 15 2012 04:49 Smackzilla wrote:On February 15 2012 04:42 Trizz wrote:
PPV is a HORRIBLE idea.
Not everyone can afford spending money on SC2 events.
They keep talking about wanting to make eSports grow, you'll only lose people putting up PPV things. Tournaments can't afford to lose money on sc2 either. Its expensive to provide a venue, fly in, and provide accommodations to all the top sc2 talent from around the world. What other tournament is footing the cash to make something like this happen? GSL sure isn't. If you want to see a truly international cast of the best players, no one comes close to this MLG arena and no one is providing the support to players and teams to make it happen. You assume they lose money just because they claim they do. MLG been around a long time and keeps losing money. How the fuck are they still around then??? What I am getting at is why is this a buisness if there is never any profit made? When they prove they need the money then I will believe they need the money. Until then I call bullshit. Then on top of that 2009 MLG had 50 million in revenue. If they're losing money while pulling in 50 million they're doing something wrong and deserve to fail. Then with a poor economy they say hey instead of holding our normal tournament the cheap way lets find a way to organize a tournament that costs a fuck ton of money for us to pull off. Meanwhile alienating our fans and sponsors at the same time. I don't always come up with a shitty buisness model, but when I do it is a MLG event. Add in that MLG is offering less content and competition for a price much higher than their competitors and that's their business model that they want us to believe is the future of NA Esports. :\ That's what I can't stand. GSL offered AOL for 5 dollars... I bought that, in a heartbeat. I keep hearing this, and it's so blatantly wrong it hurts. Last year: 6 Pro-circuit events with shitty seeding. This year: 4 Pro-circuit events with better seeding, Arena qualifiers (free), 7 Arenas (free one week after they air). By my count, that is more, not less. The highlight you made clearly states "than their competitors", not last years MLG.
It could be I read it wrong with "than their competitors" qualifying "price" -- which I still don't think is correct since everything is free, albeit one week after the event. But okay, let's go with your reading. MLG still offers a shit ton more free content than most of their competitiors as well. 11 (basically) free competitions + free qualifiers is nothing to scoff at.
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I won't be purchasing the 20$ ticket, however I would buy a 10$ ticket. I feel like 10$ is on the high end of what I'd pay. I'd wouldn't think twice about spending 5$, everytime though
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On February 15 2012 06:41 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 03:02 TUski wrote:On February 15 2012 02:39 RvB wrote:On February 15 2012 02:25 TUski wrote:
Are you guys serious? There were just as many people who aren't willing to pay at all as there were who would shell out $10? If you honestly can't afford $10 for 20 hours of gameplay and content, you seriously need to take the metaphorical stick out of your ass and think about what you're conveying to MLG and other tournaments. You're not willing to pay a dime because you're entitled to free content 100% of the time? How many tournaments do you think will aim to please the fans as much as MLG has if you idiots aren't willing to pay at all for the content they provide? $10 is a solid, reasonable amount for a weekend of starcraft, not to mention the amazing production quality that MLG provides us every tournament. Look at how far they've come since Columbus last year, then think about where they can go with $10 per viewer for each event.
MLG is headed in the right direction. I hope you guys who think you're entitled to herp derp free content wake/grow up. Why dont you grow up yourself, i just dont think mlg is worth 20 bucks. Its at night, their stream always sucks for me and their are better alternatives that are cheaper (gsl). Plus the only thing that makes mlg worth it for me(the crowd) isn't even there this event. No need to be such an ass because people dont agree with you Look at the second sentence of my post again. Then look at yours. Replace 20 bucks with 10 bucks, it doesn't change a whole lot. 10 dollars for a 3 day event is just to much especially when there are free alternatives that are at a good time for me and where I get a stream that I dont have to restart after every match with a crowd.
20$ is too much but 10$ is just fine for a starcraft weekend of MLG production. if you dont understand that, then you're probably underage and havent gotten out into the real world yet to understand how things work. please, if you're gonna be angry about a 10$ scenario, just watch assembly instead and stop posting in here.
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On February 15 2012 06:49 Sherbople wrote:
I won't be purchasing the 20$ ticket, however I would buy a 10$ ticket. I feel like 10$ is on the high end of what I'd pay. I'd wouldn't think twice about spending 5$, everytime though
nothing to add. 20 Dollars for 1 weekend, with Assembly running at the same time, is simply too much for me to even think about buying a ticket.
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I don't think $20 is unreasonable, regardless of what GOM or anyone else sells or provides for free. Realistically, this is the way we need to be moving in if we want real growth. It's "E-SPORTS" not "FREE-SPORTS" !
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On the original thread announcing the PPV style I made this same point: $20 is too much. I even said, and I still stand by this, that I would buy it for $10, but $20 is too much. MLG will be receiving my email shortly.
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On February 15 2012 05:31 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:11 hibbleton wrote:On February 15 2012 05:05 Ricemagical wrote:On February 15 2012 05:01 hibbleton wrote:On February 15 2012 04:53 FlukyS wrote:
The truth is for a weekend of play for $20 its way too high like look
at GSL. MLG is not competing against GSL. Totally irrelevant. For example: McDonalds charges $3.29 for a cheeseburger + fries (I have no idea what they actually charge) and a restaurant charges $12.99 for a cheeseburger + fries. These price points don't matter because they're not competing with each other. They might not be directly competing, but the end product is essentially the same. Both are serving burgers/fries while both gsl and mlg are serving high level starcraft 2 matches. If you can't get that thought through your head then i just dont know what to say. Maybe my analogy wasn't the best but the fact remains it doesn't matter what the GSL charges for their high level StarCraft 2 matches. MLG is charging $20 for theirs and it's up to you if you want to pay for it or not. For what it's worth, I have a GSL yearly subscription and I'll be buying the MLG Winter Arena PPV. The analogy is the problem because, presumably, there is a limit to how many cheese burgers you can eat. It's more comparable to the price of admission between a professional and collegiate sports game. For those who decide "I will only spend __ dollars this year on basketball", GSL is a better value purely for number of games (there's other issues which I won't get into here.) For someone who says "I fucking love basketball", they're more likely to go to both games, as long as the times don't overlap. I like this argument much more. For what it's worth, I think most fans of SC2 esports fit into the latter "I fucking love basketball" category.
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I love you MLG, but I think you really dropped the ball. $20 bucks for weekend tournament is a joke when I already purchased the gold subscription. Also, are these streams going to be ad free? There is no way in Hell I'd pay $20 bucks just to listen to the none stop "Check out those buns" and random diet dr pepper commercials.
MLG boardroom convo - "Hey guys I got this great idea. We have this tournament, but call it the "Arena" so we can charge everyone again!"
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$20 is a lot in the first place, but the biggest issue to me is MLG just isn't a VOD friendly event. They put alot of emphasis on VODs when they sell their PPV. It's just not working out. The week end is already packed from Friday to Sunday. When do you catch up on VODs? What do you do if you can't watch MLG live on Friday, you watch these VOD's on saturday night after you saw all the results? You miss Saturday to catch up on Friday's games?
I used to be able to watch most of MLG and I would have liked to pay $10 for the week end, but now with work and college I'd spend like the week after watching MLG and not being able to go to TL for spoilers. It just doesn't work out.
Also the event is during the week end so if you actually want to have a life in the little time off you have, then you're screwed because you have to stay in to watch MLG. My schedule just doesn't fit MLG at all. I'd be ready to pay for qualifiers more than the actual PPV.
With GSL even if you're 4-5 days behind you can still go on TL and be able to read thread without getting screwed over and if at some point you have a day off you can watch 2-3 GSL days in the same day and catch up.
That's probably why I'm ready to pay $120 for GSL and GSTL for a year, but I'd never pay $20 for a week end of MLG.
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One month of GSL Premium (includes: 2012 GOMTV SC2 VOD Archives, HQ LIVE, HQ VOD, Dual Streams, Korean VOD, Mobile services (LIVE, VOD), Extra Tournaments): $25; $20 for monthly subscription
One weekend of MLG Arena: $20
lol.
gg no re.
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Poll options are really bad... didn't really think them through before posting them....
I wouldn't pay $10 for it, but I might pay $5.
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Impressive amount of people who wouldn't buy it even for less than $10
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I as a gold member would be fine with paying another fee AFTER this winter arena. This affects the people that just have recently purchased gold tickets (i.e within the last couple of MLG events (as I have and I'm sure that other's have as well.))
As a result of paying for the gold ticket for 30$ if nothing else that money should go toward the PPV. This is only if the members so choose, if they (and myself) don't like the idea possibly Sundance could return a portion of the money.
Either way I shall most likely be buying a ticket because i want to see the players that I cheer for play.
P.S. Thanks for all you do Sundance, I wanna see E-sports continue as a business and a lifestyle.
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On February 15 2012 06:42 Brootalbro wrote:I guess EG isn't so Evil after all
Yeah. its funny.
Its time for Evil Liquid. There was no info about Tl and the Mlg referal system... kind of make me wonder what is tl official stance on it. The unofficial is Tyler posting that Gsl is a joke and everyone should watch mlg arena in the other thread
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this poll shows not that the sc2 community is cheap (it may be, it doesnt show that its not cheap i will say) all it shows is that mlg delivers one of the poorest products on the market and having an economics degree i for one would love to see this community get together and make one of two things happen by not giving into this greed
either sundance mans up and actually makes a quality product or he goes out of business forever
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EG’s been getting a lot of questions about the situation, and I’d like to clarify our stance on some of the issues.
Why isn’t EG part of the MLG referral program for the Winter Arena?
Who are all these people asking questions and how do they know what you are doing with the referral program? We haven't had the time to see anybody do anything as part of the program. Do you have a list of who is part of it and who is not?
Before going into why we declined, I’d actually like to applaud Sundance, Lee, and everyone at MLG for a moment, because they took action and proactively composed a revenue-sharing program of sorts, which is the kind of thing that we desperately need to exist between teams and tournaments in this industry.
But if the tournaments are struggling so much wouldn't the industry desperately need the revenue share to go from the teams to the tournaments not the other way around? It is in your own best interest to not let them fail even if you have to sacrifice some of your own revenue because if they do you will lose at lot more right? Are the big teams successful enough that they could afford this or are they all unsustainable as well? (LordJerith saying you make 2 million a year implies that they are successful enough but who knows)
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On February 15 2012 08:15 ParkwayDrive wrote:
this poll shows not that the sc2 community is cheap (it may be, it doesnt show that its not cheap i will say) all it shows is that mlg delivers one of the poorest products on the market and having an economics degree i for one would love to see this community get together and make one of two things happen by not giving into this greed
either sundance mans up and actually makes a quality product or he goes out of business forever
I have 20$, hell I just odered a 25$ lunch for when I get my break at work, the fact is I just don't think starcraft 2 and MLG are worth it and I don't want to support them on this. I don't think this is helping esports grow at all and I don't want to support the business model of ludacris PPV prices that will slowly go up if people just blindly accept it.
I think most people fall under the boat of just not wanting to support this time of pay model for whatever reason.
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On February 15 2012 08:19 esotericc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 08:15 ParkwayDrive wrote:
this poll shows not that the sc2 community is cheap (it may be, it doesnt show that its not cheap i will say) all it shows is that mlg delivers one of the poorest products on the market and having an economics degree i for one would love to see this community get together and make one of two things happen by not giving into this greed
either sundance mans up and actually makes a quality product or he goes out of business forever I have 20$, hell I just odered a 25$ lunch for when I get my break at work, the fact is I just don't think starcraft 2 and MLG are worth it and I don't want to support them on this. I don't think this is helping esports grow at all and I don't want to support the business model of ludacris PPV prices that will slowly go up if people just blindly accept it. I think most people fall under the boat of just not wanting to support this time of pay model for whatever reason.
I said it from day 1. As soon as MLG gets a board of directors, Sundance will be out the door so fast. This is just further evidence that proves my position. I 100% agree with 20$ being within my means, but way too expensive for is it still one tournament? Give out some sick packages for the year. 30-45$ for the entire year of MLG in high quality. Considering you could still get 2-3 months of entertainment from an MMO for around 40$ (which people play daily) I honestly don't see this as a crazy price range. If you say you need to charge 20$ per event to cover the costs and barely make a profit, then perhaps its time to take a step back and re-examine the fact that esports isn't ready for what you are offering. I watch Starcraft to improve and find it entertaining at the same time, I can get this from streams or watching Day9 or other such commentators (all free).
How do you justify this? Maybe this another play out of Blizzards playbook? Charge and obsene price (Lets nerf ghosts snipe to 25) so that when we suggest 10$ (ok, snipe is 50 -20 to massive) we all accept it as a fair enough compromise. This is quite simply bad business.
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What a well spoken and thoughtful blog. It's too bad that so many of SC2 player base are kids and students who don't have much money to spend. In more years, as the internet savvy generation become the blunt of the work force, gaming and esports will naturally become part of the social norm and not the social exceptions. Until then, hang in there, it'll get better.
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This thread is great.
I don't really care about paying 10$ for an event, but the thing that gets me mad is that they changed gold member ship on me.
When I bought gold, during MLG Championship, I thought I would get the full six event next year. At the time there wasn't news about the new format. Now with the announcement I only get 4 events and have to pay an extra 15$ for each other event. They don't even let the gold members view the first arena for free, and then the next event charge them 10$ for the pass.
I think MLG could really improve business and make everyone happy if they lowered the price to 10$ and fixed their membership system were we didn't have to buy a pass each event instead it would be added into a monthly or yearly price.
This is better than what they're doing now.
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I just think that $20 is way too much for 3 days worth of stuff. Even though there is a lot of games played, $20 is a month of WoW and a drink, half of my year of xbox live, a season of NASL, ect. At 10 bucks I would have thought about it but for 20 - hell no.
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At current numbers,
If MLG were to drop their price to $10, they would be at least $6000+ richer for it, not to mention the more revenue they would bring in from sponsors. I hope the polls get more and more votes to make it more clear.
$20 for 3 days hold very little value. More so considering that most games happen between 10pm and 10am. In the past I have gone to bed early, set the alarm for 4am, and watched half of each day. For me to do that, AND pay $20?
Nope nope nope.
MLG have always prided themselves on VIEWER EXPERIENCE, and for good reason. Their events are amazing.
What would I want to see in order to get $20 from me?
1) Viewer sync. Allow unique web addresses so I can share a code with a friend, and whatever time-line I'm watching on the PVR stream, my friend gets auto sync'd up. This should work in conjunction with......
2) A "Skip to next game/match" button. A "Spoiler free skip" would mean I would be able to watch the 10pm - 10am games IN FULL from 4am - 10pm.
3) An app for the playstation store, or a Samsung Apps app, that'll work straight on my TV.
If I am paying top-dollar I think it is only fair to expect the bar to be raised. If Assembly can offer me great players and HD for free, I want something for that $20 that other people just can't give.
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I really like the freemium model as well. SC2 has traditionally been Free to watch. Every tournament in the world has a Free stream. Because SC2 was built ground up via the Freemium model, suddenly turning it into a PPV model is going to severely cut into the viewership numbers. That's my biggest concern..
$20 bucks is also too high. NASL offers months of content for the same price. GSL's AoL which lasts approximately as long as MLG Arena costs a quarter of that amount (4.99). Granted, it has fewer players and games, though. I think $10, like Alex suggests, is a great price point. 20 is too high.
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my parents wouldnt let me spend money on this kinda stuff, but if i could, i would pay $20 for it.
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On February 15 2012 10:17 KevinIX wrote:
I really like the freemium model as well. SC2 has traditionally been Free to watch. Every tournament in the world has a Free stream. Because SC2 was built ground up via the Freemium model, suddenly turning it into a PPV model is going to severely cut into the viewership numbers. That's my biggest concern..
$20 bucks is also too high. NASL offers months of content for the same price. GSL's AoL which lasts approximately as long as MLG Arena costs a quarter of that amount (4.99). Granted, it has fewer players and games, though. I think $10, like Alex suggests, is a great price point. 20 is too high.
This is true as well, I don't play Sc2 so if they start removing free streams I will just watch league of legends instead. I will gladly pay a small amount to support a tournament ONLY if they offer a free stream as well, then I am helping the tournament and the scene grow, once they remove that free low quality stream I feel they are doing nothing to grow the sport and instead are 100% concerned with their own bottom line and esports just is not in a place for that type of business policy.
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Before going PPV, they should've at least make it clear for gold members, that we will not be able to see all events if we don't pay extra money for each event.
Now I'm just pissed and I will definitely not be spending any money at all ever again for MLG. There're just enough good/better tournaments out there with much better cost efficiancy.
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On February 15 2012 10:35 Defury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 10:17 KevinIX wrote:
I really like the freemium model as well. SC2 has traditionally been Free to watch. Every tournament in the world has a Free stream. Because SC2 was built ground up via the Freemium model, suddenly turning it into a PPV model is going to severely cut into the viewership numbers. That's my biggest concern..
$20 bucks is also too high. NASL offers months of content for the same price. GSL's AoL which lasts approximately as long as MLG Arena costs a quarter of that amount (4.99). Granted, it has fewer players and games, though. I think $10, like Alex suggests, is a great price point. 20 is too high. This is true as well, I don't play Sc2 so if they start removing free streams I will just watch league of legends instead. I will gladly pay a small amount to support a tournament ONLY if they offer a free stream as well, then I am helping the tournament and the scene grow, once they remove that free low quality stream I feel they are doing nothing to grow the sport and instead are 100% concerned with their own bottom line and esports just is not in a place for that type of business policy.
The bottom line is relevant in EVERY business. The millions invested in MLG weren't for charity. Regardless, as stated before, I think twenty is friggin' ridiculous.
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I'm pretty certain if they made it $10 more than twice the current amount of people buying it would buy one.
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So there really is no free stream for this event? So is there going to be gsl talent there then? no? Im not paying to watch any tourny especially MLG
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Personally I'm not too fazed with the pricing. $20 every 2 months is nothing
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20 dollars for a few day spectating event is ludicrous. That's ~2 months of active WoW sub for example. What are the new game titles costing now on launch, then put that 20 on it for a how many hours of spectating exactly? The hour rate is insane, but this is just imo ofc.
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wheres the "bought, and gladly would for 30" option
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MLG is the only SC2 league I watch on a dedicated basis. Part of it's just practicality: I'm in the US, MLG is one of the few leagues that runs on a schedule I can watch - just set aside the weekend of an event. (Admission: it's not that I mind staying up late or getting up early, but my non-optimum viewing time is still dedicated to Korean BW - Proleague forever!)
I really wasn't expecting MLG to run events with no free option, as it's quite different from anything they've done before. That said, I'm an advocate of shifting to partly or even mainly paid events. On the other hand, for a weekend event I feel like my "break point" is somewhere around $12-$15 - if I see a price drop like that for the next similar thing I'll probably buy it even if I can't watch the games for some reason, just to demonstrate the point.
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i really disagree with PPV only events.
anyone remember the CGS? remember how that turned out?
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On February 15 2012 12:03 honed wrote:
wheres the "bought, and gladly would for 30" option
Say that after the event is done.
Not to mention the assumption that most people are operating with finite resources. I would gladly pay $1,000,000.00 for this if I only had 10000x that much in discretionary funds. If I had $20 to spend on entertainment, and I had to choose between a single weekend of MLG, and a month of GSL, which would make more sense? MLG must directly compete with higher quality services offering higher quantities of product for the same price. Imagine if Wolfgang Puck was selling large meals for the price of a Big Mac. Would you honestly claim that not only would you purchase the big mac over Puck's food, but you'd also pay more for it?
If you have, for this example, infinite resources, or are so loyal to MLG that you would consider a single weekend of their cast to be worth more than a whole month of the GSL, then by all means, claim that you would pay more.
But like I said, lets wait for the event to happen before we exclaim its greatness.
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I'd buy it if i had time. Most of the time mlg is playing, buying a pass isn't worth it because I'll only see a handful of games. Same for this, I can't watch sc2 at home all weekend
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I'm sure this has been mentioned in the 30 pages before me..
$20 is only 2 hours of work. I will happily pick up 2 extra hours to offset the cost of this.
Think of it this way: 2 hours of work for an epic weekend AND making a huge contribution to the development of e-sports?
I find it incredibly hard to imagine that the large majority of SC2 fans cannot find 2-3 hours in the large amount of time between PPV events to make $20. And for the younger viewers who don't have a job? I think it is safe to assume most of you can convince your parents to give you $20 to do some work around the house.
I plan on inviting a few friends over for the weekend to split the cost and make it next to nothing, and make the event even more entertaining to those without a barcraft available to them.
My point? Skip the greasy fast food for a day or two, get off your bum and work for a measly 2 hours, etc. In the grand scheme of things gathering $20 for an amazing event is really not that hard.
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On February 15 2012 12:25 -mooski- wrote:
I'm sure this has been mentioned in the 30 pages before me..
$20 is only 2 hours of work. I will happily pick up 2 extra hours to offset the cost of this.
Think of it this way: 2 hours of work for an epic weekend AND making a huge contribution to the development of e-sports?
I find it incredibly hard to imagine that the large majority of SC2 fans cannot find 2-3 hours in the large amount of time between PPV events to make $20. And for the younger viewers who don't have a job? I think it is safe to assume most of you can convince your parents to give you $20 to do some work around the house.
I plan on inviting a few friends over for the weekend to split the cost and make it next to nothing, and make the event even more entertaining to those without a barcraft available to them.
My point? Skip the greasy fast food for a day or two, get off your bum and work for a measly 2 hours, etc. In the grand scheme of things gathering $20 for an amazing event is really not that hard.
This is just the wrong because people are not asking if MLG is worth a few meals at fast food... its about what the value of the actual event is... Look at this comparing apples to apples and not the way you are looking at this...
What does IPL Charge and is the product they offer just as good?
What does DreamHack Charge and is it as good?
What does Homestory Cup charge and is it as good?
What about the GSL?
Even compare it to MLG... 4 MLG Championship events that mean more then the PPV and its free LQ or all the same things the PPV Offer HQ and more for $30 for all 4 events... thats $7.50 per event... So a Weekend of Starcraft with very good production has already been given a relative market value and $20 per event is just to high...
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On February 15 2012 12:41 TheAssclown wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 12:25 -mooski- wrote:
I'm sure this has been mentioned in the 30 pages before me..
$20 is only 2 hours of work. I will happily pick up 2 extra hours to offset the cost of this.
Think of it this way: 2 hours of work for an epic weekend AND making a huge contribution to the development of e-sports?
I find it incredibly hard to imagine that the large majority of SC2 fans cannot find 2-3 hours in the large amount of time between PPV events to make $20. And for the younger viewers who don't have a job? I think it is safe to assume most of you can convince your parents to give you $20 to do some work around the house.
I plan on inviting a few friends over for the weekend to split the cost and make it next to nothing, and make the event even more entertaining to those without a barcraft available to them.
My point? Skip the greasy fast food for a day or two, get off your bum and work for a measly 2 hours, etc. In the grand scheme of things gathering $20 for an amazing event is really not that hard. This is just the wrong because people are not asking if MLG is worth a few meals at fast food... its about what the value of the actual event is... Look at this comparing apples to apples and not the way you are looking at this... What does IPL Charge and is the product they offer just as good? What does DreamHack Charge and is it as good? What does Homestory Cup charge and is it as good? What about the GSL? Even compare it to MLG... 4 MLG Championship events that mean more then the PPV and its free LQ or all the same things the PPV Offer HQ and more for $30 for all 4 events... thats $7.50 per event... So a Weekend of Starcraft with very good production has already been given a relative market value and $20 per event is just to high...
Look I'm not thrilled about it, I would rather it be free as well and I do think that $20 is too high. I was simply trying to put $20 in perspective. I will be purchasing a ticket to enjoy the weekend and support e-sports, but I will also be contacting MLG and telling them I will not be purchasing any future tickets unless there is a large reduction in price.
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I would buy for 10$! 20 is far too much when compared to all the free stuff out there, or the "better" quality things money can buy, like GSL.
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I think the PPV model is good, however it should be cheaper. I think SC's main audience would be children/young adults (14-21), they don't have lots of money.
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On February 15 2012 12:25 -mooski- wrote:
I'm sure this has been mentioned in the 30 pages before me..
$20 is only 2 hours of work. I will happily pick up 2 extra hours to offset the cost of this.
Think of it this way: 2 hours of work for an epic weekend AND making a huge contribution to the development of e-sports?
I find it incredibly hard to imagine that the large majority of SC2 fans cannot find 2-3 hours in the large amount of time between PPV events to make $20. And for the younger viewers who don't have a job? I think it is safe to assume most of you can convince your parents to give you $20 to do some work around the house.
I plan on inviting a few friends over for the weekend to split the cost and make it next to nothing, and make the event even more entertaining to those without a barcraft available to them.
My point? Skip the greasy fast food for a day or two, get off your bum and work for a measly 2 hours, etc. In the grand scheme of things gathering $20 for an amazing event is really not that hard.
Not many people in 150 countries all over the world have the job that pay $10/hour. It's not that people absolutely can't afford $20, I know some kids who are going to spare 1 week of breakfast to get that. But the problem is the precedence. If this event becomes such a successful events, other organizations are going to do that. For all we know, 2 out of 3 tournaments in the future are going to be PPV. I can afford $20 if this kind of tournament only happens once every 2,3 months, not once every 1 or 2 weeks, just can't.
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i approve of the OP and this debate in general. simple fact: a business has to have sustainable income. however MLG figures out how to do it, either they will work through this year and figure out a model and plan that works or else they will not and eventually go away. i don't want MLG to disappear and i don't think very many people here do either. so as many people as are able should absolutely support, even at prices you disapprove of, give feedback, and stick with them through the growing and learning process. we as a community have to support organizations like this even through decisions we don't totally agree with in order to keep this industry growing. otherwise the whole thing will fail.
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On February 15 2012 13:53 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 12:25 -mooski- wrote:
I'm sure this has been mentioned in the 30 pages before me..
$20 is only 2 hours of work. I will happily pick up 2 extra hours to offset the cost of this.
Think of it this way: 2 hours of work for an epic weekend AND making a huge contribution to the development of e-sports?
I find it incredibly hard to imagine that the large majority of SC2 fans cannot find 2-3 hours in the large amount of time between PPV events to make $20. And for the younger viewers who don't have a job? I think it is safe to assume most of you can convince your parents to give you $20 to do some work around the house.
I plan on inviting a few friends over for the weekend to split the cost and make it next to nothing, and make the event even more entertaining to those without a barcraft available to them.
My point? Skip the greasy fast food for a day or two, get off your bum and work for a measly 2 hours, etc. In the grand scheme of things gathering $20 for an amazing event is really not that hard. Not many people in 150 countries all over the world have the job that pay $10/hour. It's not that people absolutely can't afford $20, I know some kids who are going to spare 1 week of breakfast to get that. But the problem is the precedence. If this event becomes such a successful events, other organizations are going to do that. For all we know, 2 out of 3 tournaments in the future are going to be PPV. I can afford $20 if this kind of tournament only happens once every 2,3 months, not once every 1 or 2 weeks, just can't.
Take it in the other direction. For all we know in the future, the SC2 tournament scene will collapse because they're not making enough money and the sponsors no longer see it as a worthwhile thing to invest in. See what's wrong with just sitting down and saying, "Oh no, what if this is successful, all the tournaments are gonna do it, and then where will our free entertainment be?"
There's nothing wrong with doing a test-run on a bad weekend just to see how much they can get out of the community. Somebody's gotta do it. I'm not paying $20 for various reasons, but I don't fault MLG for doing something like this. (In fact, I applaud them for their balls.)
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On February 15 2012 13:35 -mooski- wrote:
Look I'm not thrilled about it, I would rather it be free as well and I do think that $20 is too high. I was simply trying to put $20 in perspective. I will be purchasing a ticket to enjoy the weekend and support e-sports, but I will also be contacting MLG and telling them I will not be purchasing any future tickets unless there is a large reduction in price.
Right there is the big problem with this event. MLG themselves drag this kind of thinking out of the playerbase by appealing for them to "support e-sports". If this is successful because you accept this price then you accept that all future events will probably cost at least as much, probably more, since the industry will try and milk out as much money as they possibly can (of they will, they run businesses).
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On February 15 2012 14:03 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 13:53 canikizu wrote:On February 15 2012 12:25 -mooski- wrote:
I'm sure this has been mentioned in the 30 pages before me..
$20 is only 2 hours of work. I will happily pick up 2 extra hours to offset the cost of this.
Think of it this way: 2 hours of work for an epic weekend AND making a huge contribution to the development of e-sports?
I find it incredibly hard to imagine that the large majority of SC2 fans cannot find 2-3 hours in the large amount of time between PPV events to make $20. And for the younger viewers who don't have a job? I think it is safe to assume most of you can convince your parents to give you $20 to do some work around the house.
I plan on inviting a few friends over for the weekend to split the cost and make it next to nothing, and make the event even more entertaining to those without a barcraft available to them.
My point? Skip the greasy fast food for a day or two, get off your bum and work for a measly 2 hours, etc. In the grand scheme of things gathering $20 for an amazing event is really not that hard. Not many people in 150 countries all over the world have the job that pay $10/hour. It's not that people absolutely can't afford $20, I know some kids who are going to spare 1 week of breakfast to get that. But the problem is the precedence. If this event becomes such a successful events, other organizations are going to do that. For all we know, 2 out of 3 tournaments in the future are going to be PPV. I can afford $20 if this kind of tournament only happens once every 2,3 months, not once every 1 or 2 weeks, just can't. Take it in the other direction. For all we know in the future, the SC2 tournament scene will collapse because they're not making enough money and the sponsors no longer see it as a worthwhile thing to invest in. See what's wrong with just sitting down and saying, "Oh no, what if this is successful, all the tournaments are gonna do it, and then where will our free entertainment be?" There's nothing wrong with doing a test-run on a bad weekend just to see how much they can get out of the community. Somebody's gotta do it. I'm not paying $20 for various reasons, but I don't fault MLG for doing something like this. (In fact, I applaud them for their balls.)
There is a significant amount of people (compare the various polls and general responses) that don't fault MLG for trying. MLG is faulted for foreseeable issues within execution, which are namely
1) steep price increase
2) creation of fait accompli
Few people can fathom how MLG could have thought it would be a good idea to introduce such a model exactly how they went about it. From scheduling, announcement, price policy to treatment of existing customers. It's a perfect storm of things that could have been avoided while still transitioning into a new payment structure.
And regarding the industry:
1) The absolute prerequisite to be agreed upon is that consumer dollars are finite. No matter how much you "could have earned more", in the end everybody has a limited budget.
2) A subjective prerequisite for me personally is having absolute freedom of choice. I alone choose what to spend my money on. My decision can be lead by arguments, advertisement, impulse and/or madness. As a consumer, I am accountable to none but myself.
3) While it is true that "to make any money at all" is a serious matter to solve in itself, there is no implication of it having to be MLG. The best model should succeed, nothing more, nothing less. If a model fails it could be simply because it sucked. At the very least, to solely blame either side is short-sighted. In between all the "support esports" appeals, one business should not forget that a market works both ways.
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Since there are a few threads going on about basically the same thing I wanted to post this here too for feedback I guess.
Some random thoughts on the whole situation. Maybe they're silly but maybe they're worth consideration. I'd email them in to MLG as food for thought but I'm not entirely sure where to send them.
What about charging in an a la carte method for those who can't catch the whole weekend? (Numbers are made up, can be changed around obviously) What if they charged say $5 a day and $10 for all 3? If you could only sit down and watch the sunday championship games then you throw down $5 and can still catch your games. Theoretically that's still more money in their pockets than they would get from someone that could only watch a day or 2 and just said "f it".
What about monetizing through barcrafts? Make it a completely opt in situation so some of the smaller "mom and pop" style barcrafts can just pay the $20 and watch their games. But maybe have a "barcraft package" where a larger barcraft can buy in for say $200 (made up, but bars do have to pay a LOT more for PPV packages than the normal consumer in general). For that price maybe MLG sends them a little swag bag for the barcraft to raffle off or whatever. A few T shirts, a sweatshirt, mousepads, whatever. Maybe they throw to a live webcam during a break as well to give them props. Obviously the price point would need to be at a place where MLG makes a profit after giving the barcraft stuff, but still not so much where the barcraft would feel screwed.
I dunno, to me, on paper at least, it seems like those are a few avenues that haven't been looked at that could do well.
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I really hope the PPV system makes them a profit. I just won't be adding to it, only partly because I don't have that money.
The people who are diehard about purchasing all the content you're offered, you're setting yourself up to line the pockets of every single future business that sees money in esports. Good for you, I guess, but esports has existed just fine on free-to-watch platforms for over a decade. And those platforms are what I'm going to be watching.
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On February 15 2012 14:54 Meta wrote:
I really hope the PPV system makes them a profit. I just won't be adding to it, only partly because I don't have that money.
The people who are diehard about purchasing all the content you're offered, you're setting yourself up to line the pockets of every single future business that sees money in esports. Good for you, I guess, but esports has existed just fine on free-to-watch platforms for over a decade. And those platforms are what I'm going to be watching.
I agree with this, however I hope a reformed system is able to make a profit.
P.S. Thank you Alex, that was a very informative post!
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Excellent post Alex. I think an option I will try to facilitate is doing a barcraft (or homegrown equivalent) and bring some friends. Despite the price point being too high ($20) With a couple of friends, beers, and good times with top notch casting and MLG style event it's still a good buy. I wouldn't pay the $20 for myself.. But in all honestly i've forked out over $50 for a UFC event that I really wanted to see, and IMO, SC2 is a much more entertaining sport to watch, even though I love MMA.
The facts brought up are true.
SC2/eSports is reaching a critical juncture in the industries life cycle, and people need to take notice. We all enjoy the MLG Events, I would have to say outside of GSL and HSC, it's my favourite Tournament to watch, and would go further in saying it's had some of the most epic games i've seen over SC2s short life so far.
Whatever happens I know that MLG and by extension our community will continue to grow.
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On February 15 2012 14:44 Thombur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 13:35 -mooski- wrote:
Look I'm not thrilled about it, I would rather it be free as well and I do think that $20 is too high. I was simply trying to put $20 in perspective. I will be purchasing a ticket to enjoy the weekend and support e-sports, but I will also be contacting MLG and telling them I will not be purchasing any future tickets unless there is a large reduction in price. Right there is the big problem with this event. MLG themselves drag this kind of thinking out of the playerbase by appealing for them to "support e-sports". If this is successful because you accept this price then you accept that all future events will probably cost at least as much, probably more, since the industry will try and milk out as much money as they possibly can (of they will, they run businesses).
You have to take into consideration the fact that such vast majority of the community will not be supporting MLG in this. All I can hope for is that this is testing the waters, and that MLG decides $20 is far too much and drops the price substantially, or gives you a much longer period of time for our money. Also as I said, I along with probably most others who buy a ticket will contact MLG and promise that we will not be purchasing anything from them in the future at such a steep price, which I intend on standing by.
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Seems to be down. Can someone sum up what was in there?
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On February 15 2012 16:05 Jarree wrote:Seems to be down. Can someone sum up what was in there?
$1 per sub up to 999 subs
$2 per sub after 1000 subs
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Ty. Numbers are what i imagined.
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I'd like to start this post by saying that I've been greatly looking forward to the next MLG for the last few months. The event has such great atmosphere that, even watching it online, it's almost impossible not to have fun.
To find out that it will be pay per veiw is rather disheartening. I'm a full time student, and this will force me to choose between subscribing to a month worth of the GSL, GSTL and special events, or subscribing to a weekend of MLG - and as brilliant and exciting as the MLG is, I'm not sure it can really compare.
I do hope that this is just a test, and that the MLG returns to its previous format for the next event - or at least reduces the price per event to a more reasonable level.
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MLG games are usually awesome, but so often do we not get to see the best games, so often are we looking into a big pile of air and listening to looped rock music when we could have been watching Mvp og MC. For me they just don't provide a 20 dollar product.
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On February 15 2012 19:17 kyllinghest wrote:
MLG games are usually awesome, but so often do we not get to see the best games, so often are we looking into a big pile of air and listening to looped rock music when we could have been watching Mvp og MC. For me they just don't provide a 20 dollar product.
They're casting every single match from the arena event. You'll see everything. The arena is going above and beyond previous MLG's in that perspective. Watching MLG from home you have no clue what's really happening in the brackets because you barely see the matches. What you're thinking of is the previous MLG's where this ones format and general administration is going to be completely different.
EDIT: I'll also say I'm an MLG gold member but I would also have no issue paying the full $20. However a discount wouldn't be a bad thing. I'll support MLG with my money because I want to see them keep doing well and I don't want to see the scene die because people won't pay for the content they're demanding.
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On February 14 2012 23:00 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 22:56 Treva wrote:
Such sad poll results with almost 40% of people saying they wouldn't even pay $10 or less. I don't know how Sundance puts up with trying to make this shit grow when a huge amount of people just bitch that they want free stuff but then complain when it's not that well produced. Unbelievable. Aren't you forgetting the 60% willing to pay for content?
No I'm not, I just find it quite surprising that on an esports fan/community website for the biggest and most popular game in esports that 40% of people who took the survey said that they wouldn't even pay a dime. Doesn't really seem too encouraging if people are trying to make esports become more mainstream.
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On February 16 2012 00:33 Treva wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 23:00 rotegirte wrote:On February 14 2012 22:56 Treva wrote:
Such sad poll results with almost 40% of people saying they wouldn't even pay $10 or less. I don't know how Sundance puts up with trying to make this shit grow when a huge amount of people just bitch that they want free stuff but then complain when it's not that well produced. Unbelievable. Aren't you forgetting the 60% willing to pay for content? No I'm not, I just find it quite surprising that on an esports fan/community website for the biggest and most popular game in esports that 40% of people who took the survey said that they wouldn't even pay a dime. Doesn't really seem too encouraging if people are trying to make esports become more mainstream.
Not really no. 40% of people who watch fotball or ice hockey as a hobby would not spend a dime to watch either. That is they would not spend extra money for fotball only channels or pay to go to a match. No one thinks "everyone will and want to pay", but they think , how many of people watching are willing to pay. It is the same with F2P games like TF2, LoL, HoN. They know that the majority of players will never spend anything on the game. But there will be a lot of players that will, and those will be enough to gain a profit. I think this presentation will help explain a bit: http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win .
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On February 16 2012 00:47 JackDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 00:33 Treva wrote:On February 14 2012 23:00 rotegirte wrote:On February 14 2012 22:56 Treva wrote:
Such sad poll results with almost 40% of people saying they wouldn't even pay $10 or less. I don't know how Sundance puts up with trying to make this shit grow when a huge amount of people just bitch that they want free stuff but then complain when it's not that well produced. Unbelievable. Aren't you forgetting the 60% willing to pay for content? No I'm not, I just find it quite surprising that on an esports fan/community website for the biggest and most popular game in esports that 40% of people who took the survey said that they wouldn't even pay a dime. Doesn't really seem too encouraging if people are trying to make esports become more mainstream. Not really no. 40% of people who watch fotball or ice hockey as a hobby would not spend a dime to watch either. That is they would not spend extra money for fotball only channels or pay to go to a match. No one thinks "everyone will and want to pay", but they think , how many of people watching are willing to pay. It is the same with F2P games like TF2, LoL, HoN. They know that the majority of players will never spend anything on the game. But there will be a lot of players that will, and those will be enough to gain a profit. I think this presentation will help explain a bit: http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win .
Interesting presentation and I thank you for posting it. I also understand the sports analogy but my point is that the 40% of people who wouldn't pay for say ice hockey tickets are probably not the same people who are on ice hockey websites and forums talking about the game. You would think that the percentage would skew a little more in favor of people, people who are obvious fans of the game more than your casual player, would be whiling to pay to watch. I'm not saying they should be paying prices like $20 for a weekend, it was just the fact people wouldn't even pay anything let alone $10. I wasn't expecting 100% of people to say they would pay something no but just more than 60% on a site like this for the most popular game right now.
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It was nice to read Alex's opinion, I agree with his freemium preference. As far as I'm concerned, I love MLG, I did a lot to make French community interests itself in MLG as I really think it's worth some very short nights! Regarding this new ppv system, I'll be at assembly next week so I don't have to consider, but I do think that 1) $20 is indeed too expensive for a one week-end event. 2) what I loved with MLG was that it was awesome to capture "ordinary people's" attention and eventually get them into starcraft. The absence of free stream in 360p will just make it a competition for SC II lovers but will somehow prevent MLG to make esport grow.
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On February 16 2012 00:59 Treva wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 00:47 JackDragon wrote:On February 16 2012 00:33 Treva wrote:On February 14 2012 23:00 rotegirte wrote:On February 14 2012 22:56 Treva wrote:
Such sad poll results with almost 40% of people saying they wouldn't even pay $10 or less. I don't know how Sundance puts up with trying to make this shit grow when a huge amount of people just bitch that they want free stuff but then complain when it's not that well produced. Unbelievable. Aren't you forgetting the 60% willing to pay for content? No I'm not, I just find it quite surprising that on an esports fan/community website for the biggest and most popular game in esports that 40% of people who took the survey said that they wouldn't even pay a dime. Doesn't really seem too encouraging if people are trying to make esports become more mainstream. Not really no. 40% of people who watch fotball or ice hockey as a hobby would not spend a dime to watch either. That is they would not spend extra money for fotball only channels or pay to go to a match. No one thinks "everyone will and want to pay", but they think , how many of people watching are willing to pay. It is the same with F2P games like TF2, LoL, HoN. They know that the majority of players will never spend anything on the game. But there will be a lot of players that will, and those will be enough to gain a profit. I think this presentation will help explain a bit: http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win . Interesting presentation and I thank you for posting it. I also understand the sports analogy but my point is that the 40% of people who wouldn't pay for say ice hockey tickets are probably not the same people who are on ice hockey websites and forums talking about the game. You would think that the percentage would skew a little more in favor of people, people who are obvious fans of the game more than your casual player, would be whiling to pay to watch. I'm not saying they should be paying prices like $20 for a weekend, it was just the fact people wouldn't even pay anything let alone $10. I wasn't expecting 100% of people to say they would pay something no but just more than 60% on a site like this for the most popular game right now.
Yeah I see your point. Still 60% is still a lot. But you can also keep in mind that there are other reasons then just "I don't want to pay" Some might be gold members and feel tricked that they don't get this event free even though they paid for all MLG events at the time. Some just prefer Assembly that is on at the same time, and since it is free, I don't think you can blame them. A third reason is that they don't like that MLG "waste" money on flying in a lot of pros, it's just not a good investment in some people eyes. A forth reason might be that they just don't want to support a PPV system. So they won't by it to show that MLG should not go down that road. Again there exists a lot of legitimate reasons.
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Was going to boycot this, but I think I will give them 1 chance. Here's my money Sundance, please fix your system.
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As I said before, is there any more doubt about whether or not Winter Arena was marketed as a Pro Circuit event?
Gold Members got fucked.
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On February 16 2012 11:17 GatorGar wrote:As I said before, is there any more doubt about whether or not Winter Arena was marketed as a Pro Circuit event? Gold Members got fucked.
Its a pro circuit ARENA, not just pro circuit. Different branding, different product. Of course they will keep the same symbol, that is part of their branding, without the branding it would not be MLG. They have to keep the branding to maintain product image. However attatching 'ARENA' to it makes it a different product, just how adding 'TEAM' to 'Global Startcraft League' is a different product.
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Ask a bunch of Gold Members how they feel about the advertising. Wait nevermind, they've already spoken. That's why this douchebag is on Live On 3 trying to defend himself and his thieving business model.
Bottom line: "I'll steal from you because I have to in order to buy my house on the ocean, if it fails then whatever, fuck all of you."
User was temp banned for this post.
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Are you watching the same show as I am? Why do you think this money is going back into his pocket? Which part of this do you think goes into his house.
He said if nobody buys the ticket he's goingto open a taco store next to the ocean, not '50000 people will give me money so I can move to the ocean'
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How much does oceanfront land cost? Tell me you have 5 minutes.
How much does a restaurant license cost?
Look at his shit-eating grins and smirks. He thinks this is all a joke, that all of MLG is just a big game at his disposal. He's right that his employees are his property, but when he says "Nevermind all the graphics and wording, I fired that guy" he is BLATANTLY dodging responsibility for HIS OWN shortcoming as the CEO of MLG, aka the guy with the biggest paycheck.
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...You have a conspiracy theory that Sundance is in this to skim off enough to buy waterfront company?
Seriously what?
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On February 16 2012 11:20 OptimusYale wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:17 GatorGar wrote:As I said before, is there any more doubt about whether or not Winter Arena was marketed as a Pro Circuit event? Gold Members got fucked. Its a pro circuit ARENA, not just pro circuit. Different branding, different product. Of course they will keep the same symbol, that is part of their branding, without the branding it would not be MLG. They have to keep the branding to maintain product image. However attatching 'ARENA' to it makes it a different product, just how adding 'TEAM' to 'Global Startcraft League' is a different product.
Hahaha...
So if MLG decided to drop the whole Pro Circuit idea and stiffed all the Gold Members, then released the "Masters Tour" and asked everyone to pay for it, you'd think it would be okay?
What if the NFL did that with their season tickets, called the NFL Season the Football Term, and stiffing all Season Ticket members and asked them instead to buy Yearlong Term Tickets?
It is illegal in both instances. MLG said they would give one year of "Access to the Pro Circuit" to MLG Gold Members, so they need to provide the product I paid, nothing more, nothing less, or refund me. I won't go into too much, but let us just say that I've notified the authorities on behalf of all MLG Gold members.
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People who are mad at MLG, you may have been wronged, but we do not want to kill MLG. If MLG dies we all lose.
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On February 16 2012 11:41 Luepert wrote:
People who are mad at MLG, you may have been wronged, but we do not want to kill MLG. If MLG dies we all lose.
Wrong. If there is a demand for the product MLG provides, another company will fill the void, that is how business work. But if MLG has to resort to fraudulent tactics (bait and switch) to stay in business, then maybe there isn't enough demand to begin with.
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Whoever says that without MLG SC2 will die, how FUCKING RETARDED are you? Are you serious right now?
IPL
NASL
GSL
Playhem
Korean Weekly
ZOTAC
TSL
SPL
KOTH
ESV
Just to name a few. All of them make money. Nothing wrong with Pay Per View, but don't try and charge your members twice for the same content.
Stop acting like you owe MLG a donation for what they're doing. I promise you that Sundance is making a SHIT TON of money off of this. If you couldn't read his body language then you are clueless, go be a consumer. A sheep. *Bahhh Bahhh* and just spend your money senselessly with no self respect.
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On February 16 2012 11:47 GatorGar wrote:
Whoever says that without MLG SC2 will die, how FUCKING RETARDED are you? Are you serious right now?
IPL
NASL
GSL
Playhem
Korean Weekly
ZOTAC
TSL
SPL
KOTH
ESV
Just to name a few. All of them make money. Nothing wrong with Pay Per View, but don't try and charge your members twice for the same content.
IPL is funded by IGN
NASL loses money
GSL is heavily sponsored and korea based
Playhem isn't a company nor do they turn a profit
Korean weekly again not a company nor do they turn a profit
ZOTAC same again
TSL again
SPL can't comment not familar with them
KOTH not a company nor they do make money
ESV again not a company nor do they make money
Please at least use decent examples.
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On February 16 2012 11:38 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:20 OptimusYale wrote:On February 16 2012 11:17 GatorGar wrote:As I said before, is there any more doubt about whether or not Winter Arena was marketed as a Pro Circuit event? Gold Members got fucked. Its a pro circuit ARENA, not just pro circuit. Different branding, different product. Of course they will keep the same symbol, that is part of their branding, without the branding it would not be MLG. They have to keep the branding to maintain product image. However attatching 'ARENA' to it makes it a different product, just how adding 'TEAM' to 'Global Startcraft League' is a different product. Hahaha... So if MLG decided to drop the whole Pro Circuit idea and stiffed all the Gold Members, then released the "Masters Tour" and asked everyone to pay for it, you'd think it would be okay? What if the NFL did that with their season tickets, called the NFL Season the Football Term, and stiffing all Season Ticket members and asked them instead to buy Yearlong Term Tickets? It is illegal in both instances. MLG said they would give one year of "Access to the Pro Circuit" to MLG Gold Members, so they need to provide the product I paid, nothing more, nothing less, or refund me. I won't go into too much, but let us just say that I've notified the authorities on behalf of all MLG Gold members.
Different things dude. For one thing you don't pay for most NFL games. For another it is ONE season. So lets say you did pay for it. If the NFL started up a second league with something different about it and it was something they felt they could market on its own you WOULD have to pay for both separately. And if MLG took away something that they actually promised for it would be a completely different thing. Learn before you post crazy things.
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On February 16 2012 11:49 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:47 GatorGar wrote:
Whoever says that without MLG SC2 will die, how FUCKING RETARDED are you? Are you serious right now?
IPL
NASL
GSL
Playhem
Korean Weekly
ZOTAC
TSL
SPL
KOTH
ESV
Just to name a few. All of them make money. Nothing wrong with Pay Per View, but don't try and charge your members twice for the same content.
IPL is funded by IGN NASL loses money GSL is heavily sponsored and korea based Playhem isn't a company nor do they turn a profit Korean weekly again not a company nor do they turn a profit ZOTAC same again TSL again SPL can't comment not familar with them KOTH not a company nor they do make money ESV again not a company nor do they make money Please at least use decent examples.
How many of them are funded by swindling already subscription paying members? Have you seen their advertisements? Winter Arena was CLEARLY advertised as a part of MLG Pro Circuit.
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On February 16 2012 11:42 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:41 Luepert wrote:
People who are mad at MLG, you may have been wronged, but we do not want to kill MLG. If MLG dies we all lose. Wrong. If there is a demand for the product MLG provides, another company will fill the void, that is how business work. But if MLG has to resort to fraudulent tactics (bait and switch) to stay in business, then maybe there isn't enough demand to begin with.
It wasn't fraudulent activity dude. It was a mistake press release. If MLG died I bet you almost anything that no one would fill that void. That is how business works though. You are right about that. However, if people are unwilling to pay for a product then there is no sustainable business model in NA and no one would bother doing it. The only way someone could succeed where MLG failed is if it was a big company with lots of experience in that area who came in and they wont. They'd only come into a successful market.
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nothing worse than post-teenagers with no understanding of business acting all self-entitled on the internet
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On February 16 2012 11:56 teacash wrote:
nothing worse than post-teenagers with no understanding of business acting all self-entitled on the internet
But they are teenagers dude! Clearly they have the experience or education necessary to understand everything in the business world!
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On February 16 2012 11:54 GatorGar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:49 TheButtonmen wrote:On February 16 2012 11:47 GatorGar wrote:
Whoever says that without MLG SC2 will die, how FUCKING RETARDED are you? Are you serious right now?
IPL
NASL
GSL
Playhem
Korean Weekly
ZOTAC
TSL
SPL
KOTH
ESV
Just to name a few. All of them make money. Nothing wrong with Pay Per View, but don't try and charge your members twice for the same content.
IPL is funded by IGN NASL loses money GSL is heavily sponsored and korea based Playhem isn't a company nor do they turn a profit Korean weekly again not a company nor do they turn a profit ZOTAC same again TSL again SPL can't comment not familar with them KOTH not a company nor they do make money ESV again not a company nor do they make money Please at least use decent examples. How many of them are funded by swindling already subscription paying members? Have you seen their advertisements? Winter Arena was CLEARLY advertised as a part of MLG Pro Circuit.
That has literally nothing to do with what you orginally said?
You being angry at MLG doesn't let you make up facts to back up your argument. There is plenty to say without making stuff up.
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I still aint buying it but at least sundance wasn't a complete tool in this interview like he usually is.
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Is anyone else blown away by Sundance's new Twitter picture? It seems like he's basically just laughing about the fact that MLG shafted gold members.
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On February 16 2012 12:43 StrykerSC2 wrote:
Is anyone else blown away by Sundance's new Twitter picture? It seems like he's basically just laughing about the fact that MLG shafted gold members.
It made me chuckle.
Find the humor in things rather then just looking to be offended, less stress that way.
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On February 16 2012 11:38 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:20 OptimusYale wrote:On February 16 2012 11:17 GatorGar wrote:As I said before, is there any more doubt about whether or not Winter Arena was marketed as a Pro Circuit event? Gold Members got fucked. Its a pro circuit ARENA, not just pro circuit. Different branding, different product. Of course they will keep the same symbol, that is part of their branding, without the branding it would not be MLG. They have to keep the branding to maintain product image. However attatching 'ARENA' to it makes it a different product, just how adding 'TEAM' to 'Global Startcraft League' is a different product. Hahaha... So if MLG decided to drop the whole Pro Circuit idea and stiffed all the Gold Members, then released the "Masters Tour" and asked everyone to pay for it, you'd think it would be okay? What if the NFL did that with their season tickets, called the NFL Season the Football Term, and stiffing all Season Ticket members and asked them instead to buy Yearlong Term Tickets? It is illegal in both instances. MLG said they would give one year of "Access to the Pro Circuit" to MLG Gold Members, so they need to provide the product I paid, nothing more, nothing less, or refund me. I won't go into too much, but let us just say that I've notified the authorities on behalf of all MLG Gold members.
SD agreed that there was an issue with the way the events were branded and he even said he got rid of the guy.
The point is there was a lot of confusion between MLG and the consumer. This isn't good for business and SD admitted it.
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Good read. I feel like honestly the price is a little too high, but hey, if they want to give it a shot and test the waters more power to them. I don't think they'll receive as many purchasers as they would have hoped, but at least they can get a feel for whos willing to pay. Live and learn
I'd be a lot more willing to buy a yearly package to watch rather than a weekend pass, because then I feel like its alright to miss some games. This way I would feel pressured to watch everything to get my moneys worth. Also, its hard to put money into this when I can watch other events for free.
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On February 16 2012 11:42 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 11:41 Luepert wrote:
People who are mad at MLG, you may have been wronged, but we do not want to kill MLG. If MLG dies we all lose. Wrong. If there is a demand for the product MLG provides, another company will fill the void, that is how business work. But if MLG has to resort to fraudulent tactics (bait and switch) to stay in business, then maybe there isn't enough demand to begin with.
Very bold to start an argument with "Wrong" already it tells me that you are a very one minded person who sees everything in their own way. But i'll bait
E-Sports in America is very small compared to Europe and KR (Course), besides MLG how many big name tournaments do you know of that run competitions like MLG? None NASL is the only one i can think of, off the top of my head but it is only Starcraft so its only mean for a specific fan base. MLG has everything E-Sports related, if MLG dies what makes you so sure that somebody else is willing to risk their company and their future on an apparently failed business? Would you? If you didn't know anything about E-Sports why would you take such a risk.
Basically if MLG dies we all do lose, i'm not saying i agree with what MLG is doing but theres no reason to just quit on them out right.
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Honestly, I wish they would just take the money from flying everyone out and put it toward the prize pool.
Bigger prize pools = bigger viewer numbers... and bigger viewer numbers benefits EVERYONE. Benefits teams AND MLGs... and obviously a bigger prize pool is better for players.
Kind of busy atm otherwise I'd elaborate, but fairly simple: bigger prize pool, more viewers. More viewers, more attention brought to tournament. More attention = sponsers/companies taking interest. Sponsorships. etc etc etc....
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On February 16 2012 03:56 JackDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 00:59 Treva wrote:On February 16 2012 00:47 JackDragon wrote:On February 16 2012 00:33 Treva wrote:On February 14 2012 23:00 rotegirte wrote:On February 14 2012 22:56 Treva wrote:
Such sad poll results with almost 40% of people saying they wouldn't even pay $10 or less. I don't know how Sundance puts up with trying to make this shit grow when a huge amount of people just bitch that they want free stuff but then complain when it's not that well produced. Unbelievable. Aren't you forgetting the 60% willing to pay for content? No I'm not, I just find it quite surprising that on an esports fan/community website for the biggest and most popular game in esports that 40% of people who took the survey said that they wouldn't even pay a dime. Doesn't really seem too encouraging if people are trying to make esports become more mainstream. Not really no. 40% of people who watch fotball or ice hockey as a hobby would not spend a dime to watch either. That is they would not spend extra money for fotball only channels or pay to go to a match. No one thinks "everyone will and want to pay", but they think , how many of people watching are willing to pay. It is the same with F2P games like TF2, LoL, HoN. They know that the majority of players will never spend anything on the game. But there will be a lot of players that will, and those will be enough to gain a profit. I think this presentation will help explain a bit: http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win . Interesting presentation and I thank you for posting it. I also understand the sports analogy but my point is that the 40% of people who wouldn't pay for say ice hockey tickets are probably not the same people who are on ice hockey websites and forums talking about the game. You would think that the percentage would skew a little more in favor of people, people who are obvious fans of the game more than your casual player, would be whiling to pay to watch. I'm not saying they should be paying prices like $20 for a weekend, it was just the fact people wouldn't even pay anything let alone $10. I wasn't expecting 100% of people to say they would pay something no but just more than 60% on a site like this for the most popular game right now. Yeah I see your point. Still 60% is still a lot. But you can also keep in mind that there are other reasons then just "I don't want to pay" Some might be gold members and feel tricked that they don't get this event free even though they paid for all MLG events at the time. Some just prefer Assembly that is on at the same time, and since it is free, I don't think you can blame them. A third reason is that they don't like that MLG "waste" money on flying in a lot of pros, it's just not a good investment in some people eyes. A forth reason might be that they just don't want to support a PPV system. So they won't by it to show that MLG should not go down that road. Again there exists a lot of legitimate reasons.
Yeah you're right there are plenty of valid reason, I guess my expectations were just a little unrealistically high. I appreciate your responses, take care.
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On February 16 2012 14:04 dekarp wrote:
Honestly, I wish they would just take the money from flying everyone out and put it toward the prize pool.
Bigger prize pools = bigger viewer numbers... and bigger viewer numbers benefits EVERYONE. Benefits teams AND MLGs... and obviously a bigger prize pool is better for players.
Kind of busy atm otherwise I'd elaborate, but fairly simple: bigger prize pool, more viewers. More viewers, more attention brought to tournament. More attention = sponsers/companies taking interest. Sponsorships. etc etc etc....
hope you would be ok with no koreans then
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RIP MLG!! IMO screw them, you make your money on advertising and merchandising. like you said the sc2 community has been more than generous with their time and money. I know Ive purchased several items because of exposure by pro players. (sensei mouse, filco keyboard, sennheiser headset, Fiio amp/DAC) But there is no way in hell I'd pay to watch games on the internet, AT ANY PRICE. Thankfully most of my favorite pros already stream or play in other public tournaments (homestory cup/ playhem etc etc) If there was a MLG live event close I'd go and happily pay for an event pass for the weekend. It's not like you don't already break streaming numbers and roll TONS of commercials.
The Esports scene is too young and growing too fast to throw this monkey wrench into the system, you're going to make it harder to access for the casual fan and those who've not yet caught onto the scene.
TLDR, already spent my money on periphrials made by corporate sponsors, not paying for streaming at any price you already roll 10K+ viewers and run tons of commercials. get lost MLG there are plenty of other free cups/tournaments featuring the same or better players.
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On February 16 2012 14:26 verne wrote:
RIP MLG!! IMO screw them, you make your money on advertising and merchandising. like you said the sc2 community has been more than generous with their time and money. I know Ive purchased several items because of exposure by pro players. (sensei mouse, filco keyboard, sennheiser headset, Fiio amp/DAC) But there is no way in hell I'd pay to watch games on the internet, AT ANY PRICE. Thankfully most of my favorite pros already stream or play in other public tournaments (homestory cup/ playhem etc etc) If there was a MLG live event close I'd go and happily pay for an event pass for the weekend. It's not like you don't already break streaming numbers and roll TONS of commercials.
The Esports scene is too young and growing too fast to throw this monkey wrench into the system, you're going to make it harder to access for the casual fan and those who've not yet caught onto the scene.
TLDR, already spent my money on periphrials made by corporate sponsors, not paying for streaming at any price you already roll 10K+ viewers and run tons of commercials. get lost MLG there are plenty of other free cups/tournaments featuring the same or better players.
So they should only make money in the ways you choose? Alright then. I'll be sure to let Sundance know his company is dead because you are upset over this.
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On February 16 2012 14:39 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 14:26 verne wrote:
RIP MLG!! IMO screw them, you make your money on advertising and merchandising. like you said the sc2 community has been more than generous with their time and money. I know Ive purchased several items because of exposure by pro players. (sensei mouse, filco keyboard, sennheiser headset, Fiio amp/DAC) But there is no way in hell I'd pay to watch games on the internet, AT ANY PRICE. Thankfully most of my favorite pros already stream or play in other public tournaments (homestory cup/ playhem etc etc) If there was a MLG live event close I'd go and happily pay for an event pass for the weekend. It's not like you don't already break streaming numbers and roll TONS of commercials.
The Esports scene is too young and growing too fast to throw this monkey wrench into the system, you're going to make it harder to access for the casual fan and those who've not yet caught onto the scene.
TLDR, already spent my money on periphrials made by corporate sponsors, not paying for streaming at any price you already roll 10K+ viewers and run tons of commercials. get lost MLG there are plenty of other free cups/tournaments featuring the same or better players. So they should only make money in the ways you choose? Alright then. I'll be sure to let Sundance know his company is dead because you are upset over this.
no, they're welcome to attempt to make money any way they want. Sundance can sell fucking cocaine for all I Care. My point was, they already make a TON of money streaming their games at the current price point. They dont need to charge admission for a virtual event, especially when I can watch the same players for free in multiple other leagues/streams ESL IPL NASL Playhem ETC ETC ETC.
Besides they sold all those gold memberships for "Pro League" and now seem to be defrauding all of those customers.
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On February 16 2012 15:31 verne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 14:39 mrtomjones wrote:On February 16 2012 14:26 verne wrote:
RIP MLG!! IMO screw them, you make your money on advertising and merchandising. like you said the sc2 community has been more than generous with their time and money. I know Ive purchased several items because of exposure by pro players. (sensei mouse, filco keyboard, sennheiser headset, Fiio amp/DAC) But there is no way in hell I'd pay to watch games on the internet, AT ANY PRICE. Thankfully most of my favorite pros already stream or play in other public tournaments (homestory cup/ playhem etc etc) If there was a MLG live event close I'd go and happily pay for an event pass for the weekend. It's not like you don't already break streaming numbers and roll TONS of commercials.
The Esports scene is too young and growing too fast to throw this monkey wrench into the system, you're going to make it harder to access for the casual fan and those who've not yet caught onto the scene.
TLDR, already spent my money on periphrials made by corporate sponsors, not paying for streaming at any price you already roll 10K+ viewers and run tons of commercials. get lost MLG there are plenty of other free cups/tournaments featuring the same or better players. So they should only make money in the ways you choose? Alright then. I'll be sure to let Sundance know his company is dead because you are upset over this. no, they're welcome to attempt to make money any way they want. Sundance can sell fucking cocaine for all I Care. My point was, they already make a TON of money streaming their games at the current price point. They dont need to charge admission for a virtual event, especially when I can watch the same players for free in multiple other leagues/streams ESL IPL NASL Playhem ETC ETC ETC. Besides they sold all those gold memberships for "Pro League" and now seem to be defrauding all of those customers.
A TON of money huh? Sundance says otherwise, and I'm more inclined to believe MLG's CEO over an armchair CEO.
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On February 16 2012 15:31 verne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 14:39 mrtomjones wrote:On February 16 2012 14:26 verne wrote:
RIP MLG!! IMO screw them, you make your money on advertising and merchandising. like you said the sc2 community has been more than generous with their time and money. I know Ive purchased several items because of exposure by pro players. (sensei mouse, filco keyboard, sennheiser headset, Fiio amp/DAC) But there is no way in hell I'd pay to watch games on the internet, AT ANY PRICE. Thankfully most of my favorite pros already stream or play in other public tournaments (homestory cup/ playhem etc etc) If there was a MLG live event close I'd go and happily pay for an event pass for the weekend. It's not like you don't already break streaming numbers and roll TONS of commercials.
The Esports scene is too young and growing too fast to throw this monkey wrench into the system, you're going to make it harder to access for the casual fan and those who've not yet caught onto the scene.
TLDR, already spent my money on periphrials made by corporate sponsors, not paying for streaming at any price you already roll 10K+ viewers and run tons of commercials. get lost MLG there are plenty of other free cups/tournaments featuring the same or better players. So they should only make money in the ways you choose? Alright then. I'll be sure to let Sundance know his company is dead because you are upset over this. no, they're welcome to attempt to make money any way they want. Sundance can sell fucking cocaine for all I Care. My point was, they already make a TON of money streaming their games at the current price point. They dont need to charge admission for a virtual event, especially when I can watch the same players for free in multiple other leagues/streams ESL IPL NASL Playhem ETC ETC ETC. Besides they sold all those gold memberships for "Pro League" and now seem to be defrauding all of those customers.
So many people have already said that ads/sponsors isn't enough, and you assume they make a TON of money and only want subscriptions out of pure greed?
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On February 16 2012 15:34 seiferoth10 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 15:31 verne wrote:On February 16 2012 14:39 mrtomjones wrote:On February 16 2012 14:26 verne wrote:
RIP MLG!! IMO screw them, you make your money on advertising and merchandising. like you said the sc2 community has been more than generous with their time and money. I know Ive purchased several items because of exposure by pro players. (sensei mouse, filco keyboard, sennheiser headset, Fiio amp/DAC) But there is no way in hell I'd pay to watch games on the internet, AT ANY PRICE. Thankfully most of my favorite pros already stream or play in other public tournaments (homestory cup/ playhem etc etc) If there was a MLG live event close I'd go and happily pay for an event pass for the weekend. It's not like you don't already break streaming numbers and roll TONS of commercials.
The Esports scene is too young and growing too fast to throw this monkey wrench into the system, you're going to make it harder to access for the casual fan and those who've not yet caught onto the scene.
TLDR, already spent my money on periphrials made by corporate sponsors, not paying for streaming at any price you already roll 10K+ viewers and run tons of commercials. get lost MLG there are plenty of other free cups/tournaments featuring the same or better players. So they should only make money in the ways you choose? Alright then. I'll be sure to let Sundance know his company is dead because you are upset over this. no, they're welcome to attempt to make money any way they want. Sundance can sell fucking cocaine for all I Care. My point was, they already make a TON of money streaming their games at the current price point. They dont need to charge admission for a virtual event, especially when I can watch the same players for free in multiple other leagues/streams ESL IPL NASL Playhem ETC ETC ETC. Besides they sold all those gold memberships for "Pro League" and now seem to be defrauding all of those customers. A TON of money huh? Sundance says otherwise, and I'm more inclined to believe MLG's CEO over an armchair CEO.
believe him when he says he wants more money?? of course he does.. everyone does. who doesnt want more money??
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Im not going to pay a damn thing to MLG. I'm going to go to my local barcraft and buy a ton of beer and sandwichs.
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Well its likely I will just miss out on this. $20 for one event is a bit much. Make it $5 or $10 and I'd think about it
Edit - Am I also picking up from this that they want their 'Gold' members to also pay the $20? If so then I would be royally pissed off if I was one of them. Watching all the adverts saying 'I've got GOLD' etc and boasting about how great it was, then to find out it offers no discount to the PPV event prices? Ouch!
***Majorly edited since I've only just noticed, its only the 'Arena' event that is PPV, and the other MLG's are as normal.. I think? Lol. Damn its too early in the morning for my brain to work... Left in the Gold comment, I'd still be pissed off if I was one of those guys.
Final edit - I also wonder how much they will actually make from this. I mean, pricing should be aimed at bringing in more people to watch, therefore increasing revenue. If 1000 people pay the $20 and they make $20,000 from the tickets/ 5,000 pay $10 or if 10,000 people pay $5 and they make $50,000? (Note figures are random examples). Has there been proper extensive polls done to judge just how many people will buy at $20 and actually IF they will make more money at this price point?
Also does the $20 price point = no adverts? If so then they will make hardly anything from advertising at all at this tournament?
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I think its great MLG is making it PPV. People need to remember it is a business, and they need to make money. Also, that this is only one event of the year, and not even one of their 4 major events for the year they'll be hosting, so its really not that big of a deal that its not free. Lastly, Don't forget they are flying out 32 players + cast/crew/casters for this, which is a shit tonne of money, and I think its unreasonable they shouldnt be allowed to charge for it. Yes it might be a bit harsh that its pay for it or nothing but I think people need to relax a lil bit, and supprot e-sports!
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On February 16 2012 15:36 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 15:31 verne wrote:On February 16 2012 14:39 mrtomjones wrote:On February 16 2012 14:26 verne wrote:
RIP MLG!! IMO screw them, you make your money on advertising and merchandising. like you said the sc2 community has been more than generous with their time and money. I know Ive purchased several items because of exposure by pro players. (sensei mouse, filco keyboard, sennheiser headset, Fiio amp/DAC) But there is no way in hell I'd pay to watch games on the internet, AT ANY PRICE. Thankfully most of my favorite pros already stream or play in other public tournaments (homestory cup/ playhem etc etc) If there was a MLG live event close I'd go and happily pay for an event pass for the weekend. It's not like you don't already break streaming numbers and roll TONS of commercials.
The Esports scene is too young and growing too fast to throw this monkey wrench into the system, you're going to make it harder to access for the casual fan and those who've not yet caught onto the scene.
TLDR, already spent my money on periphrials made by corporate sponsors, not paying for streaming at any price you already roll 10K+ viewers and run tons of commercials. get lost MLG there are plenty of other free cups/tournaments featuring the same or better players. So they should only make money in the ways you choose? Alright then. I'll be sure to let Sundance know his company is dead because you are upset over this. no, they're welcome to attempt to make money any way they want. Sundance can sell fucking cocaine for all I Care. My point was, they already make a TON of money streaming their games at the current price point. They dont need to charge admission for a virtual event, especially when I can watch the same players for free in multiple other leagues/streams ESL IPL NASL Playhem ETC ETC ETC. Besides they sold all those gold memberships for "Pro League" and now seem to be defrauding all of those customers. So many people have already said that ads/sponsors isn't enough, and you assume they make a TON of money and only want subscriptions out of pure greed?
it's not my fault they ran with a shitty business model that wasnt viable.
What they're doing amounts to selling a red car to johnQcustomer, then repainting that car blue. When JohnQ shows up to get the car he already paid for, they try and sell him the blue car, swearing the whole time it's not the same car he already purchased.
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On February 16 2012 15:46 verne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 15:36 fraktoasters wrote:On February 16 2012 15:31 verne wrote:On February 16 2012 14:39 mrtomjones wrote:On February 16 2012 14:26 verne wrote:
RIP MLG!! IMO screw them, you make your money on advertising and merchandising. like you said the sc2 community has been more than generous with their time and money. I know Ive purchased several items because of exposure by pro players. (sensei mouse, filco keyboard, sennheiser headset, Fiio amp/DAC) But there is no way in hell I'd pay to watch games on the internet, AT ANY PRICE. Thankfully most of my favorite pros already stream or play in other public tournaments (homestory cup/ playhem etc etc) If there was a MLG live event close I'd go and happily pay for an event pass for the weekend. It's not like you don't already break streaming numbers and roll TONS of commercials.
The Esports scene is too young and growing too fast to throw this monkey wrench into the system, you're going to make it harder to access for the casual fan and those who've not yet caught onto the scene.
TLDR, already spent my money on periphrials made by corporate sponsors, not paying for streaming at any price you already roll 10K+ viewers and run tons of commercials. get lost MLG there are plenty of other free cups/tournaments featuring the same or better players. So they should only make money in the ways you choose? Alright then. I'll be sure to let Sundance know his company is dead because you are upset over this. no, they're welcome to attempt to make money any way they want. Sundance can sell fucking cocaine for all I Care. My point was, they already make a TON of money streaming their games at the current price point. They dont need to charge admission for a virtual event, especially when I can watch the same players for free in multiple other leagues/streams ESL IPL NASL Playhem ETC ETC ETC. Besides they sold all those gold memberships for "Pro League" and now seem to be defrauding all of those customers. So many people have already said that ads/sponsors isn't enough, and you assume they make a TON of money and only want subscriptions out of pure greed? it's not my fault they ran with a shitty business model that wasnt viable. What they're doing amounts to selling a red car to johnQcustomer, then repainting that car blue. When JohnQ shows up to get the car he already paid for, they try and sell him the blue car, swearing the whole time it's not the same car he already purchased.
Welll IPL and NASL aren't really making money either, so don't be a dumbass pretending that you know all this shit. The scene is struggling, Yes it's gotten more popular, but if you think they are getting rich off of this you couldn't be more wrong.
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Yea reasonable piece, I cant say I disagree with anything. Even take the poll numbers as a rough sample youve already turned over twice as much money at the lower price.
Also business models by their very nature in such a young industry have to be flexible and dynamic which for the most part MLG is. Like the guy says theres no need to feel cheated or hard done by or whatever at this point in time. Provide the feedback, theres some smart people working there who need it in order for them to adjust how they run the business.
It should be abundantly clear that they are still unsure of how to value their product. Help them do it so its sustainable and hopefully maybe even profitable.
I dont like this encouraging esports into baiting people (at this point) theres been a year to work on it and effectively asking for donations isnt gonna cut it for long. But Im sure they already know that but just incase appealing to the community in those grounds isnt going to work for overpricing regardless of how good the events are.
Good luck though option B for me. I cant watch the whole thing this weekend but id pay 10 to catch glimpses.
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On February 14 2012 15:10 Bowzer wrote:
I spent 20 dollars on supper tonight
Say what!? I spend 3-4 Euro's on supper on average(less if more people are involved), that's about 5$.
EDIT: That's for me only, if it were about 4 people eating, it would be around 12 Euro's=15$.
Besides that: I think 20$ is waay too much for a weekend event. Hell, I can buy entire games for that price.
I'd be considering to pay if it was 5$, but if all the tournaments start to be PPV only, and everyone started to ask 10$ for a weekend, you'd be coming out with about 200$ a year. That's way too much.
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On February 16 2012 14:04 dekarp wrote:
Honestly, I wish they would just take the money from flying everyone out and put it toward the prize pool.
Bigger prize pools = bigger viewer numbers... and bigger viewer numbers benefits EVERYONE. Benefits teams AND MLGs... and obviously a bigger prize pool is better for players.
Actually bigger prize pool != bigger viewer numbers, last year compare the viewership for an MLG ($5K first place) and an NASL finals ($50K first place). Also this Arena system where MLG foots the bill to fly the players out and pays for their accomidations is much much better for the teams and players then simply increasing the prize pool.
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I am not going to go RIP MLG or anything so dramatic, i have huge respect for the MLG staff Ie Sundance/slasher and the whole crew, but i truely believe PPV is wrong for the Industry, this isnt pro wrestling, this isnt tv or normal media, teams have sponsers too, commitments and so on. This is the Internet, You are connected to nearly every house on the planet, in the long run the Freemeuim packages would probably secure MLG along with there live events and Merch,
I honestly dont want to want the PPV to fail for MLGs sake, but for me its deffently not the way forward. Alexs post is informitive and why i am a HUGE E.G fan (seriously i have the hoodie! xxl! :D ) thats just my thoughts on the subject
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On February 16 2012 19:47 FallenEncore wrote:
I am not going to go RIP MLG or anything so dramatic, i have huge respect for the MLG staff Ie Sundance/slasher and the whole crew, but i truely believe PPV is wrong for the Industry, this isnt pro wrestling, this isnt tv or normal media, teams have sponsers too, commitments and so on. This is the Internet, You are connected to nearly every house on the planet, in the long run the Freemeuim packages would probably secure MLG along with there live events and Merch,
I honestly dont want to want the PPV to fail for MLGs sake, but for me its deffently not the way forward. Alexs post is informitive and why i am a HUGE E.G fan (seriously i have the hoodie! xxl! :D ) thats just my thoughts on the subject
rob/slasher was one of 25+ people who were fired/laid off 10 days prior to christmas. So slasher has no affiliation with MLG and "the whole crew" as you put it.
just FYI
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The poll options are pretty biased, as has been noted already.
I'm just going to add that I'm a poor graduate student living off a $1K a month stipend, with a pregnant wife who is going to cutting her violin instructor hours from 30 hrs a week to 15-20 a week once the child arrives....and I find $20 perfectly reasonable for MLG content. I even have a gold membership, and at first was upset that there was no discount, but that being said, I still would have shelled out the $20 to watch.
I might be the exception to the rule, but I don't find $20 that bad at all.
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On February 16 2012 14:26 verne wrote:
RIP MLG!! IMO screw them, you make your money on advertising and merchandising.
That's what most haters don't get: no one does that, it may very well be impossible. Everyone is investing at a loss to be the last one standing, and then charge the viewers to be profitable. MLG is already doing it because they can't put up with losses anymore.
This is not like eventually MLG management woke up, put on top hats and decided they need to fund a new private jet. If it's unacceptable to pay at all then no league shall survive - and history suggests so.
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Wouldnt the amount of money from ads and sponsers go up as the number of viewers goes up? No gamble is a free one if this does not work your not going to get all the free people back afterwards myself included.
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20$ for one short event is too much. If someone wants to see major sc2 events, this + gsl vod etc start to cost too much really.
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So apparently, well from what I gleaned from LO3 was that the guy who caused this confusion got fired from MLG.
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On February 17 2012 16:32 Flamingo777 wrote:
So apparently, well from what I gleaned from LO3 was that the guy who caused this confusion got fired from MLG.
You get it.
On February 17 2012 08:12 snakeeyez wrote:
Wouldnt the amount of money from ads and sponsers go up as the number of viewers goes up? No gamble is a free one if this does not work your not going to get all the free people back afterwards myself included.
A single person buying a pass for $20 is worth 3000 viewers (of which none are using adblock).
Also I highly doubt you're going to shun the pro circuit events just because you didn't want to pay for the arena weekend.
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I think e-sports will not get to that point that you want it to evolve (ppv, less dependant on sponsorships), i'm sorry to bust your bubble. The way you want the market to be is way, way different than the market actually is. Although I hope I'm horribly wrong.
But trying to convince people to buy this 20$ pass in your post? I'm sorry...I don't get that..just for the sake of e-sports, and how do you expect this to work this time only, is this the feedback towards MLG that you are looking for?
In my opinion the criticism that has been given on this board and others is valid. MLG's business model is just plain wrong at the moment considering the state of the present (and imo future) market.
Get real,
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I would buy it for 10$, probably not every single one [there is more of these arenas right?], but some for sure. 20$ is way too much for one weekend, even though provided content [VODs, replays, x HD streams] is really great.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/mlgfs.jpg/)
