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NaNiwa-GOM Controversy General Thread - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
282 CommentsPost a Reply
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We understand this is an issue that has led to a lot of opinions. Please remember above all to keep the discussion respectful and on topic.

- This thread is specifically about NaNiwa and GOM and the controversy that occurred between them. It is not about IdrA and Sen in Code S, nor is it about any other players or tournaments. Pleas discuss that here.
- This thread is not about the merits of the Blizzard Cup structure, or GOM's foreigner invite system. Please discuss that here.
- Finally, this thread is not about Korean culture, Swedish culture, or any other ethnicity or group of people. Keep racism and cultural stereotypes out of this thread.

Responsibility for keeping a thread constructive is primarily yours. Please keep that in mind.
CrappyHippo
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada275 Posts
December 15 2011 04:35 GMT
#141
GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.
Everlasting Starcraft
Fanatic-Templar
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada5819 Posts
December 15 2011 04:39 GMT
#142
On December 15 2011 12:55 Robinsa wrote:
GOM can go and F themselves as far as I'm concerned. I'm never watching anything they produce again. Way to make an all korean league more Korean favored. I see that the top says it's not about racism but I surely think it is. MVP as a team has lost a my respect as well. I'll boo them out next time they show up in the west.


You're saying the fact that his race wasn't taken into consideration in dealing out his punishment is racist?
I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.
critique
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States135 Posts
December 15 2011 04:57 GMT
#143
On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote:
GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.

Are you serious? I can say definitively that you clearly do not follow the NBA in any way shape or form. Almost every lottery (non-playoff) team egregiously tanks at the end of every NBA season. It's so routine that NBA fans question the coach/GM of lottery teams that are not throwing games at the end of the year. This is expressly not punished by the commish, and a lot of NBA fans (myself included) were pissed that the tanking issue was not addressed in the new cba. You actually couldn't be more wrong: NBA teams throw games all. the. effing. time.
quickclickz
Profile Joined June 2011
United States81 Posts
December 15 2011 05:00 GMT
#144
So why is GOMTV punishing Naniwa given the fact that they are the ones responsible for making a tournament format in which there aren't any inconsequential games being played and streamed.
"Science is a differential equation. Religion is a boundary condition"
roronoe
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada1527 Posts
December 15 2011 05:05 GMT
#145
"We don't believe that winning games and getting prizes make you a pro-gamer. We think that pro-gaming as a vocation should be about gamers competing for the victory, for the audience so they would get excited, and in all that, players job is to compete for the victory through that. We gave the seed to Quantic Gaming's protoss pro-gamer NaNiwa, not the Swedish youth Johan Lucchesi who plays the game well."

So they gave the seed but they didn't actually give the seed??? wtf??
Lying in order to make nice sounding official statements is not a good way to win community support.
The Purgatory of Endless Depths
deathzz
Profile Joined September 2011
669 Posts
December 15 2011 05:14 GMT
#146
Well i think naniwa left gom with little choice. How much of a fine will be substantial? Gom doesn't need the money and it sends the msg that hey i can throw any game away i like n pay my way outta it.
Korean overlords
eXwOn
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada351 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 05:19:16
December 15 2011 05:14 GMT
#147
My first opinion was that Gom slammed the hammer down because if things like this occurred regularly they would lose viewers aka money. They swooped down pretending to be fair judges and made nani out to be unprofessional, saying they wouldn't punish while actually punishing severely. In reality they just want their fans to be entertained by their games so they're more willing to give up money at the end of the day.

Of course there's more too it, and Gom tv understands the situation much better than me, so I respect their decision.
#2 in the world on the ladders!!! 3.31.11 :D:D:D
CrappyHippo
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada275 Posts
December 15 2011 05:16 GMT
#148
On December 15 2011 13:57 critique wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote:
GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.

Are you serious? I can say definitively that you clearly do not follow the NBA in any way shape or form. Almost every lottery (non-playoff) team egregiously tanks at the end of every NBA season. It's so routine that NBA fans question the coach/GM of lottery teams that are not throwing games at the end of the year. This is expressly not punished by the commish, and a lot of NBA fans (myself included) were pissed that the tanking issue was not addressed in the new cba. You actually couldn't be more wrong: NBA teams throw games all. the. effing. time.

OK then, now I know I don't know NBA.
Everlasting Starcraft
VoirDire
Profile Joined February 2009
Sweden1923 Posts
December 15 2011 05:50 GMT
#149
On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote:
GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.


In starcraft 2, most players gets variable income from prize money+a fixed salary from team. In sports the team gets variable income from tickets sold and a fixed income from sponsorship deals. The NBA championship doesn't even have any prize money. Sports teams have incentive to play out seasonal games to sell tickets, players do not. In fact, they are better of not playing at all to not reveal their style of play or their strategies.

Whether you like it or not, it's human nature to primarily act in its own interest. It's what modern economics is built upon* and systems that does not accommodate for that (like some sc2 tournaments) will always have problems with players not doing what they want.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_Choice_Theory
StyLeD
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2965 Posts
December 15 2011 05:54 GMT
#150
We as foreigners should be extremely disappointed that Naniwa was removed from Code S, but as it is I do not believe Naniwa had what it took to be in Code S - if he requalifies in Code A, and then makes it to Code S, it will be better for everyone involved.

That being said, if this were a Korean player, there would be a much less biased response from TL.
"Even gophers love Starcraft" - Tasteless. || Davichi | IU <3
Ownos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2147 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 06:20:56
December 15 2011 05:57 GMT
#151
GOM has a history of not liking players throwing their games. Bitch slapped Choya for playing RPS on LADDER for example and the ESV incident. But I agree with Tyler that GOM has all in their power to not let the game be played. I would've skipped it anyway if I knew it was pointless. Guess they wanted more ad revenue by making people sit around watching. Gotta pad the content I guess. Pretty much 100% agree with Tyler as usual. I mean, they should take some responsibility themselves for letting this happen.


On December 15 2011 13:57 critique wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote:
GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.

Are you serious? I can say definitively that you clearly do not follow the NBA in any way shape or form. Almost every lottery (non-playoff) team egregiously tanks at the end of every NBA season. It's so routine that NBA fans question the coach/GM of lottery teams that are not throwing games at the end of the year. This is expressly not punished by the commish, and a lot of NBA fans (myself included) were pissed that the tanking issue was not addressed in the new cba. You actually couldn't be more wrong: NBA teams throw games all. the. effing. time.


Hahhaah no one gives a shit about the end of season. Even during the final minute of a deciding championship match, one of the Lakers decided to sit on the court instead of play.
...deeper and deeper into the bowels of El Diablo
synaptik
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada644 Posts
December 15 2011 06:01 GMT
#152
the only question that remains: will we be seeing him in the GSL again? given that

1) he has to do the qualifiers instead of getting handouts
2) his GSL track record (0-10)
3) his gimmicky expand build has already been figured out by koreans

the chances are slim.

Hipsv
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
135 Posts
December 15 2011 06:13 GMT
#153
I definitely agree with DOA more here in the sense that this is a special anniversary cup which is basically a showmatch tournament rather than a serious tournament, and that both Naniwa and Gom are to blame. GOM didn't have to broadcast the match for sure, and after being told he couldn't forfeit the match Naniwa should have at least tried to win regardless of how cheesy his build was. In the end GOM runs the show and blantantly throwing the game like that is disrespectful to the fans who paid for the ticket, GOM who is producing the content and Nestea. Allowing such disrespect isn't an option and I agree with the punishment handed to him.
Copperhead
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada97 Posts
December 15 2011 06:24 GMT
#154
And idra that says : Fuck you... to i dont remember who it is... but w.e... isnt that wrost than naniwa just raged and didnt want to play a game?What naniwa did is lame in my opinion cause people like me paid to watch PvX (mostly pvz in my case) and that was a game ill never watch...i still can get over it ...

I just like to say... who has never raged before?
I speak french kthx
ZergChief
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada5 Posts
December 15 2011 06:41 GMT
#155
First post! Yay~

I really want to say something about this. I think GOMTV is 100% justified in doing this and that anyone defending Naniwa is being extremely ignorant. First of all, GOMTV is the EMPLOYER of players, that mean is that Naniwa in GSL is EMPLOYED by GOMTV who is effectively his boss in the organization. GOMTV provides contents produced by revenues from customers who pay to see good games. As such, in GSL, Naniwa has an OBLIGATION to follow GSL's wishes if he wants to continually be employed by this organization. How is this a hard concept?

What job in the world can you purposely, willingly and OBVIOUSLY show extremely sub-par performance when your boss asks you to do something because you think its pointless? This game might not have value for Naniwa, but for GOMTV (Naniwa's boss) it is extremely important as the yearly finale!


Sc2 isn't just a "game" to the players in GSL who play 8-12 hours a day, its a career that they give up their entire lives for. Its like spitting in the face of players who gave up everything to grind games nonstop (just like Naniwa) who would take Naniwa's position in a heartbeat. What Naniwa did is a disgrace!

Imagine if you bought tickets to a game on a team that lost too many games to make it to the play-offs so they just dick around the field? Just imagine the implication of a World Cup Soccer match where the team with 3 losses that cannot advance to the next round decides that they're gonna just let the other team score and sit around doing nothing?

Are people SERIOUSLY questioning why GOMTV decided to do this to Naniwa? Naniwa got off easy, if a Korean player did this, I would bet that it could've even been a permanent ban. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen, people defending Naniwa for this kind of action.

How can people say this is an overreaction? This is also a spit in Nestea's face, who apparently practiced very hard for this. It also wasn't just a regular season either, this was like the World Cup of GSL, it was the season closer for Gom who wanted to show an amazing tournament with the best players in the world.

Professionalism is part of being a pro, I hope Naniwa learns from this and doesn't just think of this as an "overreaction" because it isn't!
"Justice without strength is incompetence, strength without justice is violence"
peekn
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1152 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 06:52:57
December 15 2011 06:49 GMT
#156
Ahhh so I finally found out about what Naniwa did, I was reading all of these statements from various parties and I wasn't really sure what happened.

Well after reading it, I can see how this would be dishonorable, and I would agree. When you are a pro at something, like the GOM response stated, you have a certain level of dignity that you have to maintain and I don't think that he did with his actions.

Even though in the west we don't care that much about honor and the things that are associated with it, it is a big deal in the east, and I completely agree with them and that ideal.

Edit: I'm not sure how I think of Naniwa as a player now I don't think that I hate it anything but, definitely went down in my books not a big fan of players who early gg or just don't try. I mean you are getting paid to do this, should just stop trying when you think that it isn't worth it, you have a duty to your fans and to your sponsors. You have to remember this when you are playing something professionally.
kardinal
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden154 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 07:05:21
December 15 2011 07:01 GMT
#157

Even though in the west we don't care that much about honor and the things that are associated with it, it is a big deal in the east, and I completely agree with them and that ideal.

Edit: I'm not sure how I think of Naniwa as a player now I don't think that I hate it anything but, definitely went down in my books not a big fan of players who early gg or just don't try. I mean you are getting paid to do this, should just stop trying when you think that it isn't worth it, you have a duty to your fans and to your sponsors. You have to remember this when you are playing something professionally.


You seem to be under the mistaken belief that "eastern honor" is the same as your idea of honor. Clue. It's not. It's only about saving face, it's certainly not about what's right or wrong or just. I say this with full knowledge of the culture being of korean descent and still having family there. Nani made GOM lose face in front of their korean viewers and had to be slapped down hard.

As a swede I find this kind of reasoning is disgusting and unprofessional.
Govou
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1072 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 07:09:24
December 15 2011 07:04 GMT
#158
On December 15 2011 16:01 kardinal wrote:
Show nested quote +

Even though in the west we don't care that much about honor and the things that are associated with it, it is a big deal in the east, and I completely agree with them and that ideal.

Edit: I'm not sure how I think of Naniwa as a player now I don't think that I hate it anything but, definitely went down in my books not a big fan of players who early gg or just don't try. I mean you are getting paid to do this, should just stop trying when you think that it isn't worth it, you have a duty to your fans and to your sponsors. You have to remember this when you are playing something professionally.


You seem to be under the mistaken belief that "eastern honor" is the same as your idea of honor. Clue. It's not. It's only about saving face, it's certainly not about what's right or wrong or just. I say this with full knowledge of the culture being of korean descent and still having family there. Nani made GOM lose face in front of their korean viewers and had to be slapped down hard.



lol please. Saving face? yeah that's kinda important. To some people

This case, it was about professionalism. pure and simple. a lot of koreans do have incredibly high standard regarding professionalism. WTF saving face has to do with Naniwa punishment? it seems like you dont know anything about how korean business work.

and stop pretending like you know all about korean culture. Because you sound like you barely know the surface it and try to paint it in negative tone.
Govou
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1072 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-15 07:05:44
December 15 2011 07:05 GMT
#159
double post
Jeity
Profile Joined March 2011
99 Posts
December 15 2011 07:10 GMT
#160
I get really annoyed when people constantly attribute the problem to a difference in western and eastern culture that can't be helped. As it has been said, the issue is a matter of professionalism which should really be quite universal if you want to remain competitive in a get this--professional environment.
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