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We understand this is an issue that has led to a lot of opinions. Please remember above all to keep the discussion respectful and on topic. - This thread is specifically about NaNiwa and GOM and the controversy that occurred between them. It is not about IdrA and Sen in Code S, nor is it about any other players or tournaments. Pleas discuss that here.- This thread is not about the merits of the Blizzard Cup structure, or GOM's foreigner invite system. Please discuss that here.- Finally, this thread is not about Korean culture, Swedish culture, or any other ethnicity or group of people. Keep racism and cultural stereotypes out of this thread. Responsibility for keeping a thread constructive is primarily yours. Please keep that in mind. |
On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote:
GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history.
You're kidding me right? You must not watch any sport
People field their subs nearly every single game that doesn't matter, nearly every single team does it every single season. You may not call that "throwing the game", but it's essentially saying "I don't give a fuck if we win"
Even in matches that do matter they still do this. Example is in the brasil football league, teams that are also participating in the Libertadores will field their B-teams with no care for whether or not they win in regular league matches that very much count, just so the main players can rest for the Libertadores matches.
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But they don't just sit down on the field and watch the other team score. That is the equivalent of what Naniwa did.
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On December 15 2011 16:11 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote:
GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history. You're kidding me right? You must not watch any sport People field their subs nearly every single game that doesn't matter, nearly every single team does it every single season. You may not call that "throwing the game", but it's essentially saying "I don't give a fuck if we win" Even in matches that do matter they still do this. Example is in the brasil football league, teams that are also participating in the Libertadores will field their B-teams with no care for whether or not they win in regular league matches that very much count, just so the main players can rest for the Libertadores matches.
not this analogy again, newsflash! it's been discussed to death.
here is the recap, fielding a B team and non starter is akin to choosing to do 4 gate or cannon rushing or inferior build.
A moving probe rushing while one hand on your chin is like sitting on field doing nothing.
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On December 15 2011 16:04 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:01 kardinal wrote:
Even though in the west we don't care that much about honor and the things that are associated with it, it is a big deal in the east, and I completely agree with them and that ideal.
Edit: I'm not sure how I think of Naniwa as a player now I don't think that I hate it anything but, definitely went down in my books not a big fan of players who early gg or just don't try. I mean you are getting paid to do this, should just stop trying when you think that it isn't worth it, you have a duty to your fans and to your sponsors. You have to remember this when you are playing something professionally.
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that "eastern honor" is the same as your idea of honor. Clue. It's not. It's only about saving face, it's certainly not about what's right or wrong or just. I say this with full knowledge of the culture being of korean descent and still having family there. Nani made GOM lose face in front of their korean viewers and had to be slapped down hard. lol please. Saving face? yeah that's kinda important. To some people This case, it was about professionalism. pure and simple. a lot of koreans do have incredibly high standard regarding professionalism. WTF saving face has to do with Naniwa punishment? it seems like you dont know anything about how korean business work. and stop pretending like you know all about korean culture. Because you sound like you barely know the surface it and try to paint it in negative tone.
Ahh thank you for the defense post, now I don't have to rant 
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I believe the punishment is fair, anything more then 1 season would have been too significant though. There are a few analogies and responses to this situation however that I think are just completely wrong.
Comparing what Naniwa did to a sports team playing their B team is NOT a comparison to what Naniwa. It would be the equivalent of Naniwa doing an untested strategy. It is more comparable to a team taking to the field and just sitting on the pitch(completely taking hand off the keyboard).
Saying that it was an inconsequential game is also not entirely true. Hes representing ALOT of different groups of people be it foreigners, his team, his fans, his sponsors and other Progamers. There is a rivalry between the two players(naniwa losing to Nestea at Blizzcon, then coming back and beating Nestea in 2 series at Providence) a lot of people were expecting a good game, some even paid for it. Its true that both players were already eliminated from their group and the tournament however WHAT would have happened if one or more of the players that made it through to the next stage became ill, injured themselves and could not make the games the next day(this isn't outside the realm of possibilities players aren't put in isolated padded rooms between games), would there not have been a fill-in position from the result of this game?
Saying what he did doesn't matter it was nothing is just ignorant. If it wasn't a big deal then nothing would have been said, ALOT of people be it fans, GOM or other Programers took offense. Them taking offense is proof it wasn't the correct thing to do.
Anyway all parties have now had their say on the issue and Naniwa has apologized and received the punishment and hopefully has learned his lesson and will be back in season 2.
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On December 15 2011 16:18 peekn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:04 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 16:01 kardinal wrote:
Even though in the west we don't care that much about honor and the things that are associated with it, it is a big deal in the east, and I completely agree with them and that ideal.
Edit: I'm not sure how I think of Naniwa as a player now I don't think that I hate it anything but, definitely went down in my books not a big fan of players who early gg or just don't try. I mean you are getting paid to do this, should just stop trying when you think that it isn't worth it, you have a duty to your fans and to your sponsors. You have to remember this when you are playing something professionally.
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that "eastern honor" is the same as your idea of honor. Clue. It's not. It's only about saving face, it's certainly not about what's right or wrong or just. I say this with full knowledge of the culture being of korean descent and still having family there. Nani made GOM lose face in front of their korean viewers and had to be slapped down hard. lol please. Saving face? yeah that's kinda important. To some people This case, it was about professionalism. pure and simple. a lot of koreans do have incredibly high standard regarding professionalism. WTF saving face has to do with Naniwa punishment? it seems like you dont know anything about how korean business work. and stop pretending like you know all about korean culture. Because you sound like you barely know the surface it and try to paint it in negative tone. Ahh thank you for the defense post, now I don't have to rant
I doubt he has extensive knowledge about korean culture as he claims. I doubt he even has a relative or a decent to be honest as 'saving face' is a Japanese culture not korean culture.
It's like reading alot of Naniwa defence posts past few days and finding out most of them start with 'I'm not even a Naniwa fan....' yeah sure, you are not.
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I'm surprised the other progamer reactions are so supportive of naniwa. Personally I feel he needed a reality check which is long overdue. He should have learned his lesson at MLG with all the controversy his immature behaviour caused. With that kind of behaviour you have no place in a $50000 professional tournament that is aired live on tv. If MLG staff would have been man enough to punish or fine him he might have been able to learn a lesson sooner and this might not have happened.
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GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
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I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
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On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote:
And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no.
How would you feel if you bought tickets ($$) for a concert, you show up, and the band plays 1 note then gives up and leaves?
Your bias is obvious because you clearly lack logic. GOM has paying customers they need to keep happy. GOM also has TV contracts and attracting viewers is part of their responsibility. People don't want to pay to see shit games like that and the majority would be disgusted (especially if they paid for premium tickets).
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On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote:
GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote:
I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances.
Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself.
GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked.
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On December 15 2011 16:45 SilverforceX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote:
And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no.
How would you feel if you bought tickets ($$) for a concert, you show up, and the band plays 1 note then gives up and leaves? Your bias is obvious because you clearly lack logic. GOM has paying customers they need to keep happy. GOM also has TV contracts and attracting viewers is part of their responsibility. People don't want to pay to see shit games like that and the majority would be disgusted (especially if they paid for premium tickets).
Who is the one lacking logic here? GOM is the party that set this up. If they want the best games possible they should assure that through format. You want to complain to someone, complain to GOM. Are you so self entitled that you think that you can complain about Naniwa pulling a fast one in his fourth game? He played three wonderful games, and when things didnt matter anymore, and he was mentally tired he kinda gave up. You cant compare that to a band playing 1 note. Last year I was at a Muse concert, it was totally awesome. But after the concert was done, they didnt come back out to play one or two more songs when the crowd was cheering for it (which is normal conduct for a large band). It was a little dissapointing, but nothing I could complain about. I got what i paid for.. and the costumers of GOM got exactly what they paid for... they paid for players playing to win (isnt that the argument that is always used when we see alot of cheese: You play to win in big tournaments). And please don't call me biased, I am not even a fan of Naniwa.
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On December 15 2011 16:22 Govou wrote:
I doubt he has extensive knowledge about korean culture as he claims. I doubt he even has a relative or a decent to be honest as 'saving face' is a Japanese culture not korean culture.
Despite living in a multicultural country like Canada you really seem to lack basic knowledge of asian cultures. My entire family's korean, my parents are korean, my grandparents are korean. I've grown up with this bullshit all my life and it pisses me off every single time fairness is swept under the rug for the sake of not being embarrassed in public.
Say what you want about what Naniwa did. Fact is. All of MLG and by association the entire western starcraft 2 scene assumed due to pretty straight forward statements at the start of the MLG-GSL cooperation that Naniwa was getting a seed.
GOM has several full time translators who post here and on starcraft reddit regularly on top of having two of their casters attending the same event that Naniwa was supposedly not getting his seed from. If anyone is telling me with a straight face that nobody at gom saw all the Naniwa to code S spam including several articles posted by their partner company MLG then you are a complete and utter moron. If you believe somebody at gom saw and thought it a good idea not to correct a mistaken belief held by the global starcraft community then you're beyond a moron.
GOM pulled the rug under Naniwa to save face. They should be fucking ashamed of themselves for this farce.
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On December 15 2011 16:49 ZergChief wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote:
GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote:
I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances. Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself. GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked.
No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them.
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On December 15 2011 17:11 kardinal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:22 Govou wrote:
I doubt he has extensive knowledge about korean culture as he claims. I doubt he even has a relative or a decent to be honest as 'saving face' is a Japanese culture not korean culture.
Despite living in a multicultural country like Canada you really seem to lack basic knowledge of asian cultures. My entire family's korean, my parents are korean, my grandparents are korean. I've grown up with this bullshit all my life and it pisses me off every single time fairness is swept under the rug for the sake of not being embarrassed in public. Say what you want about what Naniwa did. Fact is. All of MLG and by association the entire western starcraft 2 scene assumed due to pretty straight forward statements at the start of the MLG-GSL cooperation that Naniwa was getting a seed. GOM has several full time translators who post here and on starcraft reddit regularly on top of having two of their casters attending the same event that Naniwa was supposedly not getting his seed from. If anyone is telling me with a straight face that nobody at gom saw all the Naniwa to code S spam including several articles posted by their partner company MLG then you are a complete and utter moron. If you believe somebody at gom saw and thought it a good idea not to correct a mistaken belief held by the global starcraft community then you're beyond a moron. GOM pulled the rug under Naniwa to save face. They should be fucking ashamed of themselves for this farce.
I dont know what's going on with your family and I dont want to know but I'm sorry to hear you feel that way about a culture.
Anyway getting back on the topic, A lot of what you say is your own assumption. Where is the fact?
Here let me give you one. I just found out from the web and used google translate.
http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=940944&board=0&category=13438&subcategory=&page=4&best=&searchmode=title&search=&orderby=&token=
The article was written just after MLG providence and this clearly says Naniwa was not guaranteed a code S spot. I don't know what went on with MLG and their statements but it seems like GOM and koreans obviously didnt think so.
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On December 15 2011 17:16 Ravnemesteren wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:49 ZergChief wrote:On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote:
GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote:
I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances. Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself. GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked. No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them.
If your signing up to a tournament to win money, you are in-fact obligated to play under the authority of the tournament. A player should be careful in conducting proper behavior so they do not risk being abolished from the tournament. You are saying that Naniwa doesn't owe Gom anything, then neither does Gom to Naniwa. If Naniwa refuses to respect Gom by showing poor performance on purpose, then Gom has no reason to hire Naniwa.
On December 15 2011 17:11 kardinal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 16:22 Govou wrote:
I doubt he has extensive knowledge about korean culture as he claims. I doubt he even has a relative or a decent to be honest as 'saving face' is a Japanese culture not korean culture.
Despite living in a multicultural country like Canada you really seem to lack basic knowledge of asian cultures. My entire family's korean, my parents are korean, my grandparents are korean. I've grown up with this bullshit all my life and it pisses me off every single time fairness is swept under the rug for the sake of not being embarrassed in public. Say what you want about what Naniwa did. Fact is. All of MLG and by association the entire western starcraft 2 scene assumed due to pretty straight forward statements at the start of the MLG-GSL cooperation that Naniwa was getting a seed. GOM has several full time translators who post here and on starcraft reddit regularly on top of having two of their casters attending the same event that Naniwa was supposedly not getting his seed from. If anyone is telling me with a straight face that nobody at gom saw all the Naniwa to code S spam including several articles posted by their partner company MLG then you are a complete and utter moron. If you believe somebody at gom saw and thought it a good idea not to correct a mistaken belief held by the global starcraft community then you're beyond a moron. GOM pulled the rug under Naniwa to save face. They should be fucking ashamed of themselves for this farce.
Gom pulled the rug under Naniwa to save face? Of course they did. Why would they want a player that not only disrespects the competition, but the other player by not even attempting to play out the game?
Here's a good analogy:
You get an invitation from a company saying you got a job to work for them. You show up at the workplace and get training. During your training, you get extremely frustrated and tired then decide to ignore your potential bosses wishes by dicking around. Not only that, you do it in an extremely clear and noticeable fashion in-front of everybody at the company. Would you still be hired regardless of the companies call? Its not like Naniwa had a legal contract.
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On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote:
Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted...
So doing ONE action in an entire game is regarded playing these days? Bronze level players do more than that. Stop viewing the "proberush" in isolation. He didn't want to play a game in a tournament so he just sent all his workers to the enemy base with the intention of losing quickly. There was no doubt in his mind on what the outcome would be, unlike other cheesy allin's he could have done. I think the apologies posted in another thread on TL from Naniwa and his team sums up what needs to be said pretty good, I suggest you read it
On December 15 2011 17:16 Ravnemesteren wrote:
No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them.
I'm pretty sure handing in empty papers when asked for a report would get you fired in pretty much any organization that takes itself seriously. But the whole employer analogy is a terrible one to begin with so I'll just respond to you last sentence about GOM's duty to give their paying customers a good product: Telling Naniwa that it would be better for GOM if he didn't play in their tournament anymore is exactly what you feel is their responsibility. Again, read the statement from Naniwa and his team (according to you his boss).
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As a Korean fan I was so disappointed bout NANIWA vs Nestea as wel.
But once he started playing, GOM never say anything to the player.
Cheesing, yawning even akimbo in the booth.
Gom needs to make any concerned rule if needed.
I do really want to see Naniwa playing at Code S and admire his eccetric(?) character
cuz there's so many boring gamers.
As Idra said "It's not a dating show"
But Naniwa "PLEASE DON'T DO THAT AGAIN! EVER!!!
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On December 15 2011 17:20 ZergChief wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 17:16 Ravnemesteren wrote:On December 15 2011 16:49 ZergChief wrote:On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote:
GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote:
I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances. Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself. GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked. No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them. If your signing up to a tournament to win money, you are in-fact obligated to play under the rules of the tournament. A player should be careful in conducting proper behavior so they do not risk being abolished from the tournament. You are saying that Naniwa doesn't owe Gom anything, then neither does Gom to Naniwa. If Naniwa refuses to respect Gom by showing poor performance on purpose, then Gom has no reason to hire Naniwa.
They didnt hire him. He qualified through their rules. Why do you insist on believing that they in some way act as his employer? But since you really want to make that comparison I will make one for you. A company hires a freelance person to do a job for them. But the design they have given the freelance employee is flawed. When shit hits the fan they lay all the blame on the freelance employee even though the design was their idea. Because thats the main problem here. Naniwa played his heart out when it mattered, but didnt when it didnt matter. Why do we watch tournament games? We watch them to see great players battle it out when it matters the most, we want important games. GOM can't complain since Naniwa didn't follow some weird korean idea of how a pro gamer should act... they purposely set up the tournament so foreigners could join. If you can't see that the blame is on GOM i am amazed. The only viewers that complain are self entitled people that love to complain... especially if they paid money. They should just realise they got what they paid for from Naniwa... but not from GOM since they made a format that will assure you games that doesnt matter. That should be easy to understand. If you just love any game, and it doesnt matter if somethings on the line, then why pay at all? Just watch streams of the pro's all day.
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EPT
