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We understand this is an issue that has led to a lot of opinions. Please remember above all to keep the discussion respectful and on topic. - This thread is specifically about NaNiwa and GOM and the controversy that occurred between them. It is not about IdrA and Sen in Code S, nor is it about any other players or tournaments. Pleas discuss that here.- This thread is not about the merits of the Blizzard Cup structure, or GOM's foreigner invite system. Please discuss that here.- Finally, this thread is not about Korean culture, Swedish culture, or any other ethnicity or group of people. Keep racism and cultural stereotypes out of this thread. Responsibility for keeping a thread constructive is primarily yours. Please keep that in mind. |
Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
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At least, Naniwa got off with a slap on the wrist. If a Korean progammer did that, he can kiss goodbye his gaming career.
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I would really like to know about whether the MLG/GSL partnership was cancelled before Providence, as that is a big aspect in this controversy (whether Naniwa just didn't receive an invitation that was originally or whether he was expelled from something he had gotten).
That no top-performing non-Korean at the MLG was invited to Code A seems to speak for the end of the exchange beforehand. However, did any of the Koreans got their flight and accomodation to Providence funded by the MLG (just as a note, they were not seeded, they all qualified for the championship bracket due to their previous results at other MLGs).
I would like to hear a nice and clear statement from the MLG, it was kind of embarrassing to see Slasher beating around the bush for so long yesterday.
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On December 15 2011 17:43 Ravnemesteren wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 17:20 ZergChief wrote:On December 15 2011 17:16 Ravnemesteren wrote:On December 15 2011 16:49 ZergChief wrote:On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote:
GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote:
I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances. Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself. GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked. No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them. If your signing up to a tournament to win money, you are in-fact obligated to play under the rules of the tournament. A player should be careful in conducting proper behavior so they do not risk being abolished from the tournament. You are saying that Naniwa doesn't owe Gom anything, then neither does Gom to Naniwa. If Naniwa refuses to respect Gom by showing poor performance on purpose, then Gom has no reason to hire Naniwa. They didnt hire him. He qualified through their rules. Why do you insist on believing that they in some way act as his employer? But since you really want to make that comparison I will make one for you. A company hires a freelance person to do a job for them. But the design they have given the freelance employee is flawed. When shit hits the fan they lay all the blame on the freelance employee even though the design was their idea. Because thats the main problem here. Naniwa played his heart out when it mattered, but didnt when it didnt matter. Why do we watch tournament games? We watch them to see great players battle it out when it matters the most, we want important games. GOM can't complain since Naniwa didn't follow some weird korean idea of how a pro gamer should act... they purposely set up the tournament so foreigners could join. If you can't see that the blame is on GOM i am amazed. The only viewers that complain are self entitled people that love to complain... especially if they paid money. They should just realise they got what they paid for from Naniwa... but not from GOM since they made a format that will assure you games that doesnt matter. That should be easy to understand. If you just love any game, and it doesnt matter if somethings on the line, then why pay at all? Just watch streams of the pro's all day.
Your analogy is just.. completely wrong. There was nothing wrong with any design at all. Here's a WAY more correct version of your analogy:
A freelancer does a good job in a newspaper. A bigger newspaper goes "Nice, wanna do an article for us?". Freelancer decides that it's a good idea, but the article doesn't turn out the way he wanted it. The big newspaper says "Well, we already hired you, so please complete the article anyway." Freelancer gets angry and hands in an empty paper claiming it's his article. Newspaper tells freelancer he's not welcome to write articles for them again for some time.
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On December 15 2011 17:43 Ravnemesteren wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 17:20 ZergChief wrote:On December 15 2011 17:16 Ravnemesteren wrote:On December 15 2011 16:49 ZergChief wrote:On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote:
GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote:
I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances. Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself. GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked. No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them. If your signing up to a tournament to win money, you are in-fact obligated to play under the rules of the tournament. A player should be careful in conducting proper behavior so they do not risk being abolished from the tournament. You are saying that Naniwa doesn't owe Gom anything, then neither does Gom to Naniwa. If Naniwa refuses to respect Gom by showing poor performance on purpose, then Gom has no reason to hire Naniwa. They didnt hire him. He qualified through their rules. Why do you insist on believing that they in some way act as his employer? But since you really want to make that comparison I will make one for you. A company hires a freelance person to do a job for them. But the design they have given the freelance employee is flawed. When shit hits the fan they lay all the blame on the freelance employee even though the design was their idea. Because thats the main problem here. Naniwa played his heart out when it mattered, but didnt when it didnt matter. Why do we watch tournament games? We watch them to see great players battle it out when it matters the most, we want important games. GOM can't complain since Naniwa didn't follow some weird korean idea of how a pro gamer should act... they purposely set up the tournament so foreigners could join. If you can't see that the blame is on GOM i am amazed. The only viewers that complain are self entitled people that love to complain... especially if they paid money. They should just realise they got what they paid for from Naniwa... but not from GOM since they made a format that will assure you games that doesnt matter. That should be easy to understand. If you just love any game, and it doesnt matter if somethings on the line, then why pay at all? Just watch streams of the pro's all day.
The reason why I insist on them being an employer is that GOMTV was supposed to be his employer. When you participate in GSL, GOMTV is your boss. Potential employee might've been a better word. How is the blame on GOM that they decided to not allow Naniwa to participate in their tournament because of Naniwa's childish behavior? This isn't some radical Korean idealism, showing good games to your fans and respecting your opponent by at least playing the game at a tournament your in should be common sense for a PROFESSIONAL. If not, you risk the potential for a ban.
If Naniwa had no plans of being part of GSL afterwards, I could understand, but he wasn't just a random "freelancer" trying to make a quick cash, he was planning to join GSL code S as part of GOMTV's employee. The fact that GOMTV refuses to hire him based on this, regardless of the previous notice, is completely up to GOM. I fail to see how this is Gom's fault.
I'm not saying Naniwa committed some moral sin, I'm saying based on what Naniwa did, GOMTV has good reason why they want to retract their invite.
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On December 15 2011 16:11 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 13:35 CrappyHippo wrote:
GomTV's punishment is very reasonable IMO. Imagine comparing Naniwa's reckless action to a professional sport game, say NBA. At the end of the regular season, a team deliberately and very obviously throws a game cuz they won't have a spot in the playoff in very punishable by the committee. In fact, this never happend in NBA history. You're kidding me right? You must not watch any sport People field their subs nearly every single game that doesn't matter, nearly every single team does it every single season. You may not call that "throwing the game", but it's essentially saying "I don't give a fuck if we win" Even in matches that do matter they still do this. Example is in the brasil football league, teams that are also participating in the Libertadores will field their B-teams with no care for whether or not they win in regular league matches that very much count, just so the main players can rest for the Libertadores matches.
I'm getting so sick about this stupid, stupid comparison, please for the love of all the kittens out there - STOP IT.
When professional teams field their "B-Team" it's always to give their stars a BREAK. I've read stories about Messi raging when he was "forced" into breaks because he desperately wanted to play and give his fans a good show. Fielding the B-Team means that the stars can recover, don't risk injuries and whatnot. Furthermore, these are vital situations for younger players to prove themselves. Therefore they very often give all they can give and delive terrific games. Because they want to show what they are capable of. Players who don't have the chance of playing very often must cherish these rather rare games, where the attention is on them.
All of that obviously does NOT apply to the situation here. I could understand, for example, if someone goes 3-0 and doesn't want to show his "hands", therefore doing a strange strategy. But here, there was nothing to lose from "not" playing the game out.
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I think what NaNiwa did against NesTea in the match that got him suspended from Code S was a whatever game because they were both 0-3. So why would Naniwa want to play a showmatch against NesTea just to give people a useless match so i think GOMTV had so right to ban him for something so stupid. Lets say they were both 2-2 and it went into a final game i would understand if he worker rushed when it would be a tie for matches but when they were both 0-3 i dont think they should have the right to ban him for something so stupid. And i really want to hear MLG's point of view on this because like someone mentioned before JP didnt want to say anything because he didnt want to represent MLG on this topic. I think GOM should talk to CEO Sundance about this because Naniwa doesnt deserve to be banned from Code S.
If a Korean player did this they more then likely wouldnt get such a harsh sentence. I think GOM should of thought this through before they banned him for worker rushing especially because what is he going to lose worker rushing when both player are 0-3 anyways.
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On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote:
Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
careful. random accusations are frowned upon.
that said, I can see where you're coming from, but honestly I think he's just immature.
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On December 15 2011 17:59 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 17:43 Ravnemesteren wrote:On December 15 2011 17:20 ZergChief wrote:On December 15 2011 17:16 Ravnemesteren wrote:On December 15 2011 16:49 ZergChief wrote:On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote:
GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote:
I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances. Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself. GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked. No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them. If your signing up to a tournament to win money, you are in-fact obligated to play under the rules of the tournament. A player should be careful in conducting proper behavior so they do not risk being abolished from the tournament. You are saying that Naniwa doesn't owe Gom anything, then neither does Gom to Naniwa. If Naniwa refuses to respect Gom by showing poor performance on purpose, then Gom has no reason to hire Naniwa. They didnt hire him. He qualified through their rules. Why do you insist on believing that they in some way act as his employer? But since you really want to make that comparison I will make one for you. A company hires a freelance person to do a job for them. But the design they have given the freelance employee is flawed. When shit hits the fan they lay all the blame on the freelance employee even though the design was their idea. Because thats the main problem here. Naniwa played his heart out when it mattered, but didnt when it didnt matter. Why do we watch tournament games? We watch them to see great players battle it out when it matters the most, we want important games. GOM can't complain since Naniwa didn't follow some weird korean idea of how a pro gamer should act... they purposely set up the tournament so foreigners could join. If you can't see that the blame is on GOM i am amazed. The only viewers that complain are self entitled people that love to complain... especially if they paid money. They should just realise they got what they paid for from Naniwa... but not from GOM since they made a format that will assure you games that doesnt matter. That should be easy to understand. If you just love any game, and it doesnt matter if somethings on the line, then why pay at all? Just watch streams of the pro's all day. Your analogy is just.. completely wrong. There was nothing wrong with any design at all. Here's a WAY more correct version of your analogy: A freelancer does a good job in a newspaper. A bigger newspaper goes "Nice, wanna do an article for us?". Freelancer decides that it's a good idea, but the article doesn't turn out the way he wanted it. The big newspaper says "Well, we already hired you, so please complete the article anyway." Freelancer gets angry and hands in an empty paper claiming it's his article. Newspaper tells freelancer he's not welcome to write articles for them again for some time.
Not this idiocy again. Stop with the "he didnt give them anything" argument. He gave them great games. The flaw in the product is with GOM. Or are you one of those people who just want to see games being played no matter what, it doesnt matter if anything is on the line? Lets say your newspaper hired someone to do several articles. He did three excellent articles about stuff that mattered, and when they ask him to write about something that nobody really cares about, something that is irrelevant to world news (or whatever) he writes one sentence. And on top of that, the writer was working for free... he was just writing it for his own fame. I say the newspaper is to blame for wanting useless articles.
You dont see a flaw in the product from GOM's side? Really? Meaningless games are boring. And the format itself is really flawed because of that. Therefore the design is flawed.
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I think that this was completely unacceptable and unproffesional Idra-like behavior which should be punished.
I like him as a player, but people should understand that these are not ladder games - these players are payed for that, and should behave appropriately. At least if we want people to have respect to esports...
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On December 15 2011 18:11 Ravnemesteren wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 17:59 Tobberoth wrote:On December 15 2011 17:43 Ravnemesteren wrote:On December 15 2011 17:20 ZergChief wrote:On December 15 2011 17:16 Ravnemesteren wrote:On December 15 2011 16:49 ZergChief wrote:On December 15 2011 16:37 SilverforceX wrote:
GOM's respond is a joke and clearly show bias and double standards.
So many players previously do SCV all ins a few minutes into the game, constantly. Why weren't they banned? If i was a paying customer, i wouldn't want to see that shit. Ofcourse i wouldn't want to see progamers throwing away matches as well, its an insult to the fan and paying customers, as well as the opponent.
If they start on this path, they need to be consistent. In the future, ban all worker rush play, automatic disqualification.
On December 15 2011 16:42 Ravnemesteren wrote:
I feel GOM's response is childish. The only people who can complain about what Naniwa did is his team and sponsors. And GOM suddenly stating that they wouldnt give Naniwa a code S spot in the first place is an outright lie, and everyone knows it. The only party I have lost respect for in this situation is GOM. They have a silly format, dont take any blame for that, they make up rules as they go... They need to get their act together.
And to all the self entitled people that say pro gamers should act like this, or follow this code of conduct etc: Do you actually believe that? Pro gamers are entertainers. They act differently, they have personalities. And if that personality shines through and gives us a proberush in a meaningless game... do we have the right to complain? Damn no. Some say Naniwa cant be called a pro gamer. Do these people also say that Metallica is not a metal band because they used to show up on stage drunk? (Not following proper stage conduct etc). As I said earlier, the only people who can complain about this is his team. He is advertising their brand, and he is paid by them, so they can actually complain. Can viewers complain? Hell, no. You sat down to watch Naniwa play, and thats what you got.. maybe you didnt get the exact outcome of Naniwa vs Nestea you wanted... But I cant complain about MC for always doing boring timing attacks, if I sit down to watch a tourney with MC its my choice (yeah same applies if I buy an HD ticket). Can GOM complain? No, they set up a format which allowed this to happen... if someone doesnt follow their idea of a korean "pro gamer", they cant go around punishing people for that. This has nothing to do with match fixing.
Do you honestly not understand the difference? A bad play has a CHANCE TO WIN. Its a strategy that may or may not work. You can say that the player doing it wasn't trying his "best" or doing the performance that you wanted, but its not even close to what Naniwa was doing. What Naniwa did is like going to a soccer match and walking around on the field watching the other player score for free. A probe rush has literally 0 chance of winning and he didn't even micro. He even took his hands off the keyboard! Completely different circumstances. Naniwa has an obligation to GOMTV to follow their wishes to play out the games they ask him to play. They are his boss, he can't throw a fit because they made him play a game that he didn't think had value. To GOM that game has value, because GOM makes its money through revenues from people who want to watch high caliber games, not probe rushes. It doesn't matter that the game had no value to Naniwa, it had value for GOM who is his boss. Your band example has a terrible logic, Metallica is their own boss and the customers can simply refuse to purchase their music or show up to their concert if they don't like their conduct. What Naniwa did damages GOM, not just himself. GOM can't and won't penalize a player that at least tries on a bad day, just like a good boss won't fire someone because they had a bad performance on a bad day. That is completely different from what Naniwa did, which is like having a bad day and then willingly ignoring the wishes of your boss by not even attempting to work. If you can't tell the difference, I'm just shocked. No, as I said in my post his team is his boss, not GOM. He isnt working for GOM, neither do they pay him. They didnt even "give" him the spot in the tournament. He doesnt owe them anything. They set up a torunament, set up how you could qualify for the tournament, set up how the tournament works, the format etc. There is a big difference between Naniwas employer and GOM. When it comes to assuring that the players will play their best, and making sure that they get a good product for their paying customers its up to them. If your signing up to a tournament to win money, you are in-fact obligated to play under the rules of the tournament. A player should be careful in conducting proper behavior so they do not risk being abolished from the tournament. You are saying that Naniwa doesn't owe Gom anything, then neither does Gom to Naniwa. If Naniwa refuses to respect Gom by showing poor performance on purpose, then Gom has no reason to hire Naniwa. They didnt hire him. He qualified through their rules. Why do you insist on believing that they in some way act as his employer? But since you really want to make that comparison I will make one for you. A company hires a freelance person to do a job for them. But the design they have given the freelance employee is flawed. When shit hits the fan they lay all the blame on the freelance employee even though the design was their idea. Because thats the main problem here. Naniwa played his heart out when it mattered, but didnt when it didnt matter. Why do we watch tournament games? We watch them to see great players battle it out when it matters the most, we want important games. GOM can't complain since Naniwa didn't follow some weird korean idea of how a pro gamer should act... they purposely set up the tournament so foreigners could join. If you can't see that the blame is on GOM i am amazed. The only viewers that complain are self entitled people that love to complain... especially if they paid money. They should just realise they got what they paid for from Naniwa... but not from GOM since they made a format that will assure you games that doesnt matter. That should be easy to understand. If you just love any game, and it doesnt matter if somethings on the line, then why pay at all? Just watch streams of the pro's all day. Your analogy is just.. completely wrong. There was nothing wrong with any design at all. Here's a WAY more correct version of your analogy: A freelancer does a good job in a newspaper. A bigger newspaper goes "Nice, wanna do an article for us?". Freelancer decides that it's a good idea, but the article doesn't turn out the way he wanted it. The big newspaper says "Well, we already hired you, so please complete the article anyway." Freelancer gets angry and hands in an empty paper claiming it's his article. Newspaper tells freelancer he's not welcome to write articles for them again for some time. Not this idiocy again. Stop with the "he didnt give them anything" argument. He gave them great games. The flaw in the product is with GOM. Or are you one of those people who just want to see games being played no matter what, it doesnt matter if anything is on the line? Lets say your newspaper hired someone to do several articles. He did three excellent articles about stuff that mattered, and when they ask him to write about something that nobody really cares about, something that is irrelevant to world news (or whatever) he writes one sentence. And on top of that, the writer was working for free... he was just writing it for his own fame. I say the newspaper is to blame for wanting useless articles. You dont see a flaw in the product from GOM's side? Really? Meaningless games are boring. And the format itself is really flawed because of that. Therefore the design is flawed.
The game might be meaningless for the tournament, but it obviously wasn't meaningless for Nestea, he was looking forward to playing against Naniwa and trained for it. It obviously wasn't meaningless for GOMtv since they denied Naniwa the right to forfeit. A lot of people want to see Nestea vs Naniwa regardless of tournament results. The point is that it wasn't naniwas choice to make. He asked if he could forfeit and was denied. Then he made a clown out of himself by not playing the games properly simply because he's a "rebel" and decided that his definition of meaningful trumphed everyone elses.
You might disagree with GOM what constitutes an interesting game, but they don't have to respect your individual opinion on this, and they don't have to respect naniwas. It's not a flaw, it's just a decision you guys happen to disagree with.
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On December 15 2011 18:08 H1STORY wrote:
If a Korean player did this they more then likely wouldnt get such a harsh sentence.
such ridiculous nonsense - if a Korean player had done this, he most likely would have gotten a severe punishment from his TEAM before TL could even have made the first thread about that
the only reason that the "punishment" has to be "justified" in such way is that Nani isn't in fact Korean
On December 15 2011 18:11 Ravnemesteren wrote:
Or are you one of those people who just want to see games being played no matter what, it doesnt matter if anything is on the line?
I am. As a matter of fact, all I want is too see great games, regardless of what is at stake for the players involved.
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Prolly the last season ticket I've ever bought of GOMTV.
I think the punishment is absolutely overextended to what Naniwa did. My complete support on naniwa and my money out of gomtv now.
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I do not agree with GOMTV on this one. Naniwa did not broke any rules, they should not have authority to do this to him. I understand that this is their tournament, but what they did is basically said that they do not like Naniwa and just kicked him out. This means that they can just simply kick out any player from their tournament without any reason, which is not a sign of fair competition.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
I can see where they are coming from, but the whole thing is so completely harmless and irrelevant that I don't understand why Naniwa in particular receives so much shit for that. He obviously has some temper issues but he is fighting them as best as he can. Why doesn't that deserve some respect? His explanation of the incident was in my opinion perfectly acceptable.
The game was absolutely irrelevant. He didn't match fix for any personal or national gain, he just gave up because he didn't want to play a meaningless game. What's the problem with that? People have done worse things before that actually meant something (Koreans throwing games at WCG for example to get an all-korean top 3. Stork and Jaedong.) and have not received as much criticism and silly punishments.
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On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote:
Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
Maybe you're trying not to be offensive but asking if someone is retarded is NOT OK, jesus christ.
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On December 15 2011 20:30 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote:
Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's. Maybe you're trying not to be offensive but asking if someone is retarded is NOT OK, jesus christ.
He's not asking if Naniwa is retarded. -_-
"...a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."
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On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote:
Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
I would say that this is highly likely.
The thing is, so does many other progamers. I dont have any proof, or examples, but I cant see how progaming would not attract a disproportionate amount of people who tend to be completely focused on one task, are able to drown themselves in their work, live under special circumstances and like to use computers as a buffer for social interaction.
I work with children with Asperger's/autism part time btw. So you can trust me, I am practically a doctor. >.<
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On December 15 2011 20:30 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote:
Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's. Maybe you're trying not to be offensive but asking if someone is retarded is NOT OK, jesus christ.
That you would label an antisocial personality disorder as "retarded" is hugely ignorant. Your ignorance aside it is a very legitimate question, especially since naniwa has repeatedly demonstrated behaviors consistent with symptoms of APSD.
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I think GOM was ignorant to ban Naniwa if anyone seen the semi finals of Blizzard Cup tonight you would of seen that MVP pretty much through the last two games against MMA. The matches lasted around 10-14 minutes game 2-3 and GOMTV wont punish MVP for pretty much throwing the last two games
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EPT
