We understand this is an issue that has led to a lot of opinions. Please remember above all to keep the discussion respectful and on topic.
- This thread is specifically about NaNiwa and GOM and the controversy that occurred between them. It is not about IdrA and Sen in Code S, nor is it about any other players or tournaments. Pleas discuss that here. - This thread is not about the merits of the Blizzard Cup structure, or GOM's foreigner invite system. Please discuss that here. - Finally, this thread is not about Korean culture, Swedish culture, or any other ethnicity or group of people. Keep racism and cultural stereotypes out of this thread.
Responsibility for keeping a thread constructive is primarily yours. Please keep that in mind.
On December 15 2011 21:03 opisska wrote: "Finally, this thread is not about Korean culture, Swedish culture, or any other ethnicity or group of people. Keep racism and cultural stereotypes out of this thread."
I am sorry, but then what is the point of this thread then? What is the point of discussion, where one point of view is banned from the beginning in pursuit of political corectness? This situation is a blatant manifestation of Korean cultural bias. Saying so is not racism or stereotyping. Denying the fact that people that have been raised in different cultures approach given situation with a different preexisting bias, because their ethical structure, which is the base for any non-data-driven decision, is different, is superificial to say the least.
I honestly think that the whole situation can be summarized by "Koreans think differently, we can either learn to live with that or make our own e-sport scene independently". Continuing with the willfull ingorance of differences in basic thinking process between people raised in euro-american and south korean background (note, I am not saying "Koreans and white dudes", it is not about appearance, but how one was being raised) will only lead to more abursd drama.
I don't know how it is in where you live but the majority of the rest of the world agrees with the Koreans. Just check the poll on the front page. Way to be wrong, buddy!
to everyone out there crying your hearts out because you feel robbed of a proper "naniwa vs nestea-rematch", i think that you are better off this way.
a large reason why naniwa didnt want to play a real game versus nestea was because he felt he couldnt perform 100%, his ego simply wouldnt let him give the impression of taking the game seriously and losing. if he would have 4-gated and lost, people would still be saying "hah, i guess nestea is better than naniwa!" and im pretty confident naniwa wanted to avoid this.
so what did he do? he lost in a fashion that was impossible to interpret as if nestea was the better player.
On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote: Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
I would say that this is highly likely.
The thing is, so does many other progamers. I dont have any proof, or examples, but I cant see how progaming would not attract a disproportionate amount of people who tend to be completely focused on one task, are able to drown themselves in their work, live under special circumstances and like to use computers as a buffer for social interaction.
I work with children with Asperger's/autism part time btw. So you can trust me, I am practically a doctor. >.<
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST ON A FUCKING MOPED.
It's bad enough that there is an open speculation about whether naniwa has some sort of mental disorder. But you seriously compare Asperger's syndrome with anti-social personality disorder and DARE to call yourself "practically a doctor". Do you have any idea just how offensive that is?
Anti-social personality disorder is the disorder commonly associated with psychopaths. It's characterized by (1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest (2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure (3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead (4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults (5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others (6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations (7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
It is imho one of the worst and most disrespectful thing of accusing another person of having.
Asperger's syndrome is characterized by difficulties in social interaction and "quirky" behavior. It's part of the autism spectrum (think Rain Man instead of Patrick Bateman). People with Asperger's don't lack remorse at all, they sometimes just have a hard time understanding what they did wrong in a social context and if they are irritable and aggressive, it's mostly because they panic in a social situation.
I find it disgusting to see people speculating about whether another person has a mental disorder so casually. People have been banned here just for calling other people "retards".
Sure Naniwa didn't show his most professional side and the fans were robbed of their game between those two awesome players. However the decision to deny him code-s is a rather harsh punishment no matter what you choose to call it officially.
And to be honest, from a respectfulness point of view. Isn't the manner mules, self-base nukes etc that are used to outright disrespect your opponent worse? At least if you need to uphold this high standard of respect and professionalism. And if it's only about not giving the fans their games, then this decision is even worse because now we wont get to see any Naniwa games in January.
On December 15 2011 22:13 R_247 wrote: Sure Naniwa didn't show his most professional side and the fans were robbed of their game between those two awesome players. However the decision to deny him code-s is a rather harsh punishment no matter what you choose to call it officially.
And to be honest, from a respectfulness point of view. Isn't the manner mules, self-base nukes etc that are used to outright disrespect your opponent worse? At least if you need to uphold this high standard of respect and professionalism. And if it's only about not giving the fans their games, then this decision is even worse because now we wont get to see any Naniwa games in January.
Just my two cents. /R
No.
A Korean would probably have a lifetime ban... Not just a "declined" invite or spot. Nani is getting away "lightly" on this compared to what a Korean would get for doing something like this.
I have said this in other thread and I will post here again: Progamers earn from tournaments, salaries and streaming. Other than streaming, those other two are heavily relying on sponsorship. Sponsors number and amount they sponsor will vary based upon the number of audience that it would reach out to.
The viewers number is high for these tournaments because they expect good matches to watch, to enjoy, from these top/interesting players.
IF you honestly think "oh, progamer plays to win, not to entertain", then you are killing a lot of esport because for those who wanted to watch good matches and PAID for the tickets, these games aren't what they want.
What naniwa did was quite disrespectful, not only to the players but also to his team, his sponsor and to whoever paid to watch the matches.
On December 15 2011 22:13 R_247 wrote: Sure Naniwa didn't show his most professional side and the fans were robbed of their game between those two awesome players. However the decision to deny him code-s is a rather harsh punishment no matter what you choose to call it officially.
And to be honest, from a respectfulness point of view. Isn't the manner mules, self-base nukes etc that are used to outright disrespect your opponent worse? At least if you need to uphold this high standard of respect and professionalism. And if it's only about not giving the fans their games, then this decision is even worse because now we wont get to see any Naniwa games in January.
Just my two cents. /R
No.
A Korean would probably have a lifetime ban... Not just a "declined" invite or spot. Nani is getting away "lightly" on this compared to what a Korean would get for doing something like this.
I have no idea if that's true or not. To me and I think many with me the decision is harsh, maybe it's not to a Korean. I still stick with my original thoughts. I think there are many other unprofessional and disrespectful acts going on without any major response like this. But I guess he should have done what most other players in a game without real gain or meaning. Do a silly build or a half-assed all-in. It's a bit of a double standard though.
On December 15 2011 22:06 Soma.bokforlag wrote: to everyone out there crying your hearts out because you feel robbed of a proper "naniwa vs nestea-rematch", i think that you are better off this way.
a large reason why naniwa didnt want to play a real game versus nestea was because he felt he couldnt perform 100%, his ego simply wouldnt let him give the impression of taking the game seriously and losing. if he would have 4-gated and lost, people would still be saying "hah, i guess nestea is better than naniwa!" and im pretty confident naniwa wanted to avoid this.
so what did he do? he lost in a fashion that was impossible to interpret as if nestea was the better player.
Exactly, which is quite a douche thing to do. Nestea had trained for the game and wanted to beat Naniwa. Naniwa was playing badly and was tilted, so instead of taking the loss properly, he chickened out.
I laughed when I first read this story. Seems Naniwa has a bit of a rebellious streak in him. Not sure this is worth all the hype... as with most SC drama.
On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote: Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
I would say that this is highly likely.
The thing is, so does many other progamers. I dont have any proof, or examples, but I cant see how progaming would not attract a disproportionate amount of people who tend to be completely focused on one task, are able to drown themselves in their work, live under special circumstances and like to use computers as a buffer for social interaction.
I work with children with Asperger's/autism part time btw. So you can trust me, I am practically a doctor. >.<
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST ON A FUCKING MOPED.
It's bad enough that there is an open speculation about whether naniwa has some sort of mental disorder. But you seriously compare Asperger's syndrome with anti-social personality disorder and DARE to call yourself "practically a doctor". Do you have any idea just how offensive that is?
Anti-social personality disorder is the disorder commonly associated with psychopaths. It's characterized by (1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest (2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure (3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead (4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults (5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others (6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations (7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
It is imho one of the worst and most disrespectful thing of accusing another person of having.
Asperger's syndrome is characterized by difficulties in social interaction and "quirky" behavior. It's part of the autism spectrum (think Rain Man instead of Patrick Bateman). People with Asperger's don't lack remorse at all, they sometimes just have a hard time understanding what they did wrong in a social context and if they are irritable and aggressive, it's mostly because they panic in a social situation.
I find it disgusting to see people speculating about whether another person has a mental disorder so casually. People have been banned here just for calling other people "retards".
Way to go dude. I dont even qualify Asperger's as a mental disorder. They are different. The first guy obviously has no idea that anti-social personality disorder is a completely different thing and threw those words together to describe a diagnose that includes difficulties in social interaction.
On December 15 2011 20:50 h41fgod wrote: I work with children with Asperger's/autism part time btw. So you can trust me, I am practically a doctor. >.<
If you cannot see that this is use of the "Trust me, I'm a doctor" meme, yeah.
Your second to last paragraph describes Naniwas public behavior spot on btw.
On December 15 2011 21:03 opisska wrote: "Finally, this thread is not about Korean culture, Swedish culture, or any other ethnicity or group of people. Keep racism and cultural stereotypes out of this thread."
I am sorry, but then what is the point of this thread then? What is the point of discussion, where one point of view is banned from the beginning in pursuit of political corectness? This situation is a blatant manifestation of Korean cultural bias. Saying so is not racism or stereotyping. Denying the fact that people that have been raised in different cultures approach given situation with a different preexisting bias, because their ethical structure, which is the base for any non-data-driven decision, is different, is superificial to say the least.
I honestly think that the whole situation can be summarized by "Koreans think differently, we can either learn to live with that or make our own e-sport scene independently". Continuing with the willfull ingorance of differences in basic thinking process between people raised in euro-american and south korean background (note, I am not saying "Koreans and white dudes", it is not about appearance, but how one was being raised) will only lead to more abursd drama.
I don't know how it is in where you live but the majority of the rest of the world agrees with the Koreans. Just check the poll on the front page. Way to be wrong, buddy!
Equating the "majority of the rest of the world" and "a poll on TL" is a bold move and we need to be bold in these tough times, so I have ti give you credit for that! But I cannot help but consider the "opinion" being biased as well. Do you honestly think that all the people that voted in agreement with GOM's decision, would make such decision if it was up to them? I consider most of this to be a huge bandwagonning. Of course, there will be a non-negligible amoutn of people that do actually believe in that. But still, do you believe that the course of events would be the same if it was at MLG?
On December 15 2011 17:49 Mallard86 wrote: Is there a possibility that Naniwa has some sort of anti-social personality disorder? His behavior on multiple occasions as well as second hand accounts is quite similar to an old friend of mine from school that had Asperger's.
Maybe you're trying not to be offensive but asking if someone is retarded is NOT OK, jesus christ.
Dude, I know English isn't your first language, but Asperger's is nothing to do with being "retarded".
Firstly, I want to state that the principal characters in this drama have all made their decisions and played their parts. Indulging in continued controversy only stands to hurt everyone involved.
On to the topic,
I think its wise to consider that rules and laws are created to try and establish two major things: that which is just, and that which is fair. At the best of times you achieve both. However, what is just and what is fair is not always the same thing, and in the worst of times you try to settle for at least one.
Is the punishment 'Just'? No. The rules and the format were not designed with a situation such as this one in mind. Ultimately, a worst case scenario evolved testing the rules and the system failed. The provisions of the tournament were not well enough designed to account for the specific conduct of Naniwa in this situation, neither player had any particular incentive to perform, and both players had cause to withdraw. Is the punishment 'Fair'? Yes. Naniwa is one of the best players in the world participating in one of the most visible competitions in the world. He was obviously aware that he was expected to play the match to its conclusion. Give his previously establish record there was an expectation of good faith that he would follow through with a competent game, and no expectation that he would or should do otherwise. Ask the simple question: Did he know he was doing something wrong or against what was expected? The truth is he did something rebellious ... something that usually exacts a consequence. Final thoughts... What stuck out most to me in the GomTV announcement was how closely they danced around the topic of 'competitive spirit' even if those exact words were not used. While the loss of this opportunity for a Code S Seed is unfortunate for Naniwa, it is a rather tidy penalty for what ultimately amounts to unsportsmanlike conduct. Furthermore, in acknowledgement to the fact that he did not break a previously written rule or policy, the penalty is temporary. Naniwa has every opportunity to continue his pro-gaming career with the GSL. This is a rare light-handed response to something that could have fairly amounted to a lifelong ban. Every major competitive institution that exists has cause to consider the conduct of their participants with grave austerity; the integrity of any sport lies in the behavior of its players.
I feel the response to this incident is balanced and appropriate. While the incident has been unfortunate and unpleasant, everyone involved (including the community) has the opportunity to learn and move forward productively. I hope we can all continue to support the game that we love.
1. What disturbed me is that he claims to work so hard to face the best players in the world and prove himself to be among the best...then he throws away a game [declines to play it] against a player who is considered to be among the best.
Sure the game was technically meaningless. But couldn't he see how blessed he was to be living his dream at that exact moment? His decision struck me as extremely impetuous.
Would have never happened if he had taken a second to reflect. Hopefully he comes back stronger from all this, and also gets a haircut.
2.
On December 16 2011 00:10 Aezuriel wrote: Is the punishment 'Just'? No. The rules and the format were not designed with a situation such as this one in mind. Ultimately, a worst case scenario evolved testing the rules and the system failed. The provisions of the tournament were not well enough designed to account for the specific conduct of Naniwa in this situation, neither player had any particular incentive to perform, and both players had cause to withdraw.
Is the punishment 'Fair'? Yes. Naniwa is one of the best players in the world participating in one of the most visible competitions in the world. He was obviously aware that he was expected to play the match to its conclusion. Give his previously establish record there was an expectation of good faith that he would follow through with a competent game, and no expectation that he would or should do otherwise. Ask the simple question: Did he know he was doing something wrong or against what was expected? The truth is he did something rebellious ... something that usually exacts a consequence.
Yeah, there may have been no specific rule for this situation, but GOM has a broad mandate to the E-Sports community to keep things professional. They shouldn't be unnecessarily hamstrung by the lack of a written rule, as long as they remain fair whenever they use their discretion.
3. I think it's impossible to make a tournament where there's no way to have any game become meaningless. I can't think of any existing format that does this!
Making up rules and acting on them with serious punishment on them would be laughed at and make everyone lose respect for the company... Not in the star craft community I suppose.
On December 15 2011 21:03 opisska wrote: "Finally, this thread is not about Korean culture, Swedish culture, or any other ethnicity or group of people. Keep racism and cultural stereotypes out of this thread."
I am sorry, but then what is the point of this thread then? What is the point of discussion, where one point of view is banned from the beginning in pursuit of political corectness? This situation is a blatant manifestation of Korean cultural bias. Saying so is not racism or stereotyping. Denying the fact that people that have been raised in different cultures approach given situation with a different preexisting bias, because their ethical structure, which is the base for any non-data-driven decision, is different, is superificial to say the least.
I honestly think that the whole situation can be summarized by "Koreans think differently, we can either learn to live with that or make our own e-sport scene independently". Continuing with the willfull ingorance of differences in basic thinking process between people raised in euro-american and south korean background (note, I am not saying "Koreans and white dudes", it is not about appearance, but how one was being raised) will only lead to more abursd drama.
I don't know how it is in where you live but the majority of the rest of the world agrees with the Koreans. Just check the poll on the front page. Way to be wrong, buddy!
Equating the "majority of the rest of the world" and "a poll on TL" is a bold move and we need to be bold in these tough times, so I have ti give you credit for that! But I cannot help but consider the "opinion" being biased as well. Do you honestly think that all the people that voted in agreement with GOM's decision, would make such decision if it was up to them? I consider most of this to be a huge bandwagonning. Of course, there will be a non-negligible amoutn of people that do actually believe in that. But still, do you believe that the course of events would be the same if it was at MLG?
Whether they would make that decision or not is irrelevant. The fact that they agree what Naniwa did was wrong is important. It shows that the values (at least in this regard) are not that different. MLG? Most likely not. They seem rather soft. Fighter from UFC doing something analogous to this? Yes. Most likely an even harsher punishment.
On December 15 2011 22:13 R_247 wrote: Sure Naniwa didn't show his most professional side and the fans were robbed of their game between those two awesome players. However the decision to deny him code-s is a rather harsh punishment no matter what you choose to call it officially.
And to be honest, from a respectfulness point of view. Isn't the manner mules, self-base nukes etc that are used to outright disrespect your opponent worse? At least if you need to uphold this high standard of respect and professionalism. And if it's only about not giving the fans their games, then this decision is even worse because now we wont get to see any Naniwa games in January.
Just my two cents. /R
No.
A Korean would probably have a lifetime ban... Not just a "declined" invite or spot. Nani is getting away "lightly" on this compared to what a Korean would get for doing something like this.
I have no idea if that's true or not. To me and I think many with me the decision is harsh, maybe it's not to a Korean. I still stick with my original thoughts. I think there are many other unprofessional and disrespectful acts going on without any major response like this. But I guess he should have done what most other players in a game without real gain or meaning. Do a silly build or a half-assed all-in. It's a bit of a double standard though.
It is true. Have you seen the video of Nal-Ra disqualified for accidentally pausing a game during a Kespa match?
Naniwa is not in his home country. He is in korea. It is by their rules he has to abide. He should have been more aware that they are taking this seriously and he should too.
This may be deviating a bit from the main discussion. But someone on Gosugamers.net posted what claimed to be a translation of a PlayXP interview with the Blizzard Cup RO6 players, specifically asking about Naniwa being out of Code S. According to that (unconfirmed) source, MC had this to say:
>MC: He did not deserve it. Code S is for the best progamers in the world. I do not see Naniwa as a progamer. I see him as a little boy.
A statement I think is particularly interesting, since MC himself earned his Code S spot the same way Naniwa did (or in fact didn't, according to GOM). he then goes on to claim Idra and Sen are unworthy, and that he will "thumbs down" them out of Code S.
Is there an official translation of these interviews?
EPT
