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Please make sure to read the statement from Naniwa that is linked in the full article before commenting. |
On December 09 2011 07:24 NKsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 07:16 flowSthead wrote:
I don't understand what Naniwa could have done to get himself transferred. He's hanging out in Korea practicing all day. Did he have duties he didn't fulfill? Was he BM towards management? I just don't see why Complexity even needs to concern themselves that much with Naniwa that he could have pissed them off. He's in Korea; the amount of damage he can do to their sponsors in the West is minimal. Read the fucking note that they put at the top. Do NOT comment until you read naniwa's response. Holy shit, how hard can it be to...read?
Parties break contracts all the time for a lot of reasons. Those are followed by simple, courtesy statements to maintain an aura of professionalism. That you want to take those statements for granted is your choice, but do chill on the profanities.
The guy was probably just jumping to a discussion that could actually prove interesting.
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On December 09 2011 07:27 Ryps wrote:Someone needs to tell Clutch that Naniwa switched teams before he makes another mistake on MLG 
He's allready started to practice over at reddit 
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poor col first steph now nani 
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On December 09 2011 07:28 ReboundEU wrote:
Waw now that took me by surprise....
1 question tho..i know IM parted ways with Quantic.... i know it was some time ago but even the transfer of naniwa was discussed a long time ago and just now publicly announced. I am not trying to start a flame or hate or anything....but do u guys think IM and Quantic parted ways because naniwa joined them? :o
Why would they possibly do that?
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On December 09 2011 07:17 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 07:14 Zalithian wrote:On December 09 2011 07:14 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 09 2011 07:10 Zalithian wrote:On December 09 2011 07:06 Klondikebar wrote:On December 09 2011 07:02 Zalithian wrote:On December 09 2011 07:01 Klondikebar wrote:On December 09 2011 06:58 Mordiford wrote:On December 09 2011 06:53 Klondikebar wrote:On December 09 2011 06:49 pPingu wrote:
[quote]
Really?... The situation with stephano was in now way col fault.
Jason is a great guy, don't shit on him for no reason Did you read what he said on reddit? "We're sending TriMaster to Korea any week now and Johan is well aware of that. I'm not going to get into a public argument and wish him the very best but this was a one way decision. His contract was being sold (to Quantic or someone else) whether he approved or not." Which translates to: I don't want to say anything bad, but I'm going to proceed to say that we don't care what our players want. Or he was STRONGLY implying that Naniwa had pissed off the team. Either way, he was getting into a public argument in the very statement where he said he didn't want to. And terse little laws like "whether he approved or not" imply a management style of which I don't approve. I don't see how he said, "We don't care what our players want". That's some pretty crazy extrapolation from something that isn't event hinted at. He does plainly state that Naniwa is not being entirely honest about no future English speaking teammates coming to Korea, I see no problem with calling someone who is lying to make themselves look better provided that is the case, we aren't sure. The second was a pretty clear statement that they were going to remove him from the team and were looking to do so, effectively suggested he was being "kicked out" in a sense. Considering his history, I'm sort of leaning towards Complexity's side but it seems they didn't know what they were getting into despite Odee briefing them on what to expect. All I read was a guy who tried to set himself up on a pedestal but then couldn't resist taking a jab at Naniwa anyway. And given the tone of both of their statements, I'm going to side with Naniwa. Kyle says they were going to send a player "any week now" which doesn't sound terribly concrete. And fine, they're kicking Naniwa off the team. Naniwa had the grace to make a good statement about how he was actually excited and CoL could have just left it at that. Instead he comes in and trolls. It appears as if Naniwa LIED about Complexity and his situation. How you can see it as wrong that Jason was clarifying things is beyond me. Really? Naniwa lied that CoL had no plans to send anyone to Korea and the best Kyle can offer as a rebuttal is "we're sending one any week now." Sorry, that doesn't sound like great evidence. Also, Naniwa has been in Korea by himself for a long time now and clearly hasn't enjoyed himself. It doesn't surprise me that he doesn't find comfort in "just keep waiting an indeterminate number of weeks and we'll send you a buddy." And there's a difference between clarifying and clearly trying to start something. Jason Lake says Naniwa knew Trimaster would be coming. Nani said Col said NOBODY was coming for a long time. Seems to be clarifying to me, and obviously one side is lying. Considering Naniwa is a very skilled player who cannot manage to stay on a team would lead you to believe he has a terrible personality, even if you don't count his past from WC3 etc. Naniwa also lied about MLG, unless you believe him over Sundance. I don't want to offend Trimaster, but the fact is considering Naniwa's skill level Trimaster is a nobody. Yet it still makes Naniwa a liar. (if it is the actual situation) Let's hold off on calling Naniwa a liar, till Trimaster gets some boots on the ground in Korea.
Naniwa does not give a shit about Trimaster coming to korea.
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On December 09 2011 07:28 ReboundEU wrote:
Waw now that took me by surprise....
1 question tho..i know IM parted ways with Quantic.... i know it was some time ago but even the transfer of naniwa was discussed a long time ago and just now publicly announced. I am not trying to start a flame or hate or anything....but do u guys think IM and Quantic parted ways because naniwa joined them? :o
Coincidental.
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I love MVP, hate coL. Nice to see my favorite foreigner leave them. GL man!
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mOOnGLaDe to coL?? He's been teamless for a while now and carving up WCG and narrowly missed a NASL2 finals spot (He always plays much better at LAN than online, dunno why....must thrive on pressure and the big stage)
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On December 09 2011 07:24 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 07:17 IPA wrote:On December 09 2011 07:02 milky_muh wrote:On December 09 2011 06:57 Zalithian wrote:On December 09 2011 06:56 milky_muh wrote:On December 09 2011 06:53 ZwuckeL wrote:
why has noone seen this coming? i would have thought everyone has seen it coming, after the fact of nani bm'ing so hard at MLG and putting coL in a very awkward position Hahaha, who/what did he BM? :D I don't know. Major League Gaming, probably the best SC2 tournament in the world, or at least outside Korea. Nestea, one of the most respected players in Korea and the world? I may have missed if he flamed MLG tournament, but he certainly didnt flame or BM nestea. Its just you people who want a reason to hate him. He said several times after the interview about winning MLG invitational, that he did not disrespect any of the other players etc etc. You have no idea what you're talking about. Did you watch MLG Providence? Obviously not or you would know that he did, indeed, BM NesTea and the tournament itself. Please stop posting for a bit. I find it funny that people choose to rabidly, zealously defend Nani and cast a bunch of down on JLake's statements, even when given Nani's history. People see what they want to see I suppose. What a bullshit post... It's okay when MC does his bullshit ceremonies, or when MMA does a kamehameha at IdrA? It seems that YOU have no idea what YOU'RE talking about. Nestea told Naniwa BEFORE the game PERSONALLY that he would CRUSH him. It was all friendly shit Naniwa did to him and he even stated after that he respected him alot, Nestea mentioned Naniwa in a interview afterwards. I find it funny that people choose to rabidly, zealously flame Nani and cast a bunch of down on his behaviour, even when he's getting better in terms of personality. People see what they want to see I suppose. Please stop posting for a bit.
Sigh... I'm not gonna refer to Nani's incident in particular, but I always like to address this issue.
When a player does a Kamehameha, or does a funny throat slash then proceeds to high-five the crowd when winning, or does a murloc dance, it's just a silly ceremony for the fans. It's for the fan's enjoyment.
When a player openly bashes someone, flips the middle finger at someone, etc, that's just to cause anger, basically BM.
It's extremely different situations, in extremely different contexts. The latter just shows how little most foreigner players know of showmanship in comparison to their korean counterparts, probably because the korean scene as a whole is so experienced at being public, again in comparison to the foreigners.
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On December 09 2011 07:23 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 07:15 babylon wrote:On December 09 2011 07:12 Klondikebar wrote:On December 09 2011 07:09 mki wrote:On December 09 2011 07:07 Condor Hero wrote:
Lol Complexity amazes me.
First off, they came late to the Starcraft scene, so you can't really be too choosy about which players you sign. As long as they produce results, they bring your sponsors recognition.
Say what you will about Naniwa, but he's a world class player who is a legitimate Ace against any team on the planet. Nani is a legit favorite in just about any tournament he enters and at the moment, the only foreigner in Code S.
2nd what part of Naniwa being a headcase did Complexity not understand when they signed him? Did they make any revelations in the past few months?
3rd why would you advertise you don't give a fuck about his opinion and he didn't have a say in the matter? Is that a good decision? There's a reason why EG didn't go after NaNiwa Probably because EG doesn't want pre-written contracts, they want to negotiate their own. Alex Garfield has stated before that they didn't want Naniwa because he's not marketable. Naniwa's one of the few pros, I'd say, who actually has a negative image. People like him in spite of his personality, not because, and it's not like he's particularly "faceless" either (like a lot of the Korean pros who can't interact well with their fans due to language barriers). You cannot be serious. Yes, I've heard AG talk about marketability before and there's a lot of comedy gold in that based off their current roster. Good thing is his opinions are just that. Opinions. Naniwa's image is fine. He gets attention just like IdrA. People put way too much thought in it. -.-
Naniwa has issues. Hes one of my favorites so it doesn't bother me but he does have his share of problems: Hes known to be extremely difficult to work with behind the scenes, self-centered, rude to his teammates. As far as marketability, I don't see worlds of potential there either, he doesn't speak well in live interviews and his overall demeanor is awkward. Call Naniwa what he is and dont beat around the bush: he's a shining example of work ethic and dedication, an inspiration to up and coming pro-gamers and one of the best protoss' in the world (both foreign and in korea) but don't say that hes marketable or his image is fine.
Also Naniwa is not as marketable as IdrA, he doesn't get the same level of attention as IdrA. But to be fair, no players get the level of attention that IdrA gets right now.
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On December 09 2011 07:23 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 07:15 babylon wrote:On December 09 2011 07:12 Klondikebar wrote:On December 09 2011 07:09 mki wrote:On December 09 2011 07:07 Condor Hero wrote:
Lol Complexity amazes me.
First off, they came late to the Starcraft scene, so you can't really be too choosy about which players you sign. As long as they produce results, they bring your sponsors recognition.
Say what you will about Naniwa, but he's a world class player who is a legitimate Ace against any team on the planet. Nani is a legit favorite in just about any tournament he enters and at the moment, the only foreigner in Code S.
2nd what part of Naniwa being a headcase did Complexity not understand when they signed him? Did they make any revelations in the past few months?
3rd why would you advertise you don't give a fuck about his opinion and he didn't have a say in the matter? Is that a good decision? There's a reason why EG didn't go after NaNiwa Probably because EG doesn't want pre-written contracts, they want to negotiate their own. Alex Garfield has stated before that they didn't want Naniwa because he's not marketable. Naniwa's one of the few pros, I'd say, who actually has a negative image. People like him in spite of his personality, not because, and it's not like he's particularly "faceless" either (like a lot of the Korean pros who can't interact well with their fans due to language barriers). You cannot be serious. Yes, I've heard AG talk about marketability before and there's a lot of comedy gold in that based off their current roster. Good thing is his opinions are just that. Opinions. Naniwa's image is fine. He gets attention just like IdrA. People put way too much thought in it. -.-
Are you seriously questioning the decisions of the CEO of the most well-known, popular and marketable foreign team in existence? They are sponsored up the ass precisely because they understand what is and what is not marketable and the value of each player in that respect.
I don't know which specific players you're talking about but it doesn't matter. I'm sure each player on their team is paid a justifiable amount.
God it's ridiculous to see people questioning the business acumen of owners/managers of teams like EG and coL that weathered the storm of the esports bubble collapsing way back when. They've both been around for a decade and have never looked stronger. They've done this largely by making smart business decisions on their rosters. The absurdity of some of the things I read on this forum is outstanding.
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Damnit I wish we had real e-sports journalists to get into what really happened. Either Jason Lake is a douche (unlikely) or Naniwa highly offended the team somehow (how?).
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On December 09 2011 07:29 Arcanne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 07:17 Hrrrrm wrote:On December 09 2011 07:14 Zalithian wrote:On December 09 2011 07:14 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 09 2011 07:10 Zalithian wrote:On December 09 2011 07:06 Klondikebar wrote:On December 09 2011 07:02 Zalithian wrote:On December 09 2011 07:01 Klondikebar wrote:On December 09 2011 06:58 Mordiford wrote:On December 09 2011 06:53 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Did you read what he said on reddit?
"We're sending TriMaster to Korea any week now and Johan is well aware of that. I'm not going to get into a public argument and wish him the very best but this was a one way decision. His contract was being sold (to Quantic or someone else) whether he approved or not."
Which translates to: I don't want to say anything bad, but I'm going to proceed to say that we don't care what our players want. Or he was STRONGLY implying that Naniwa had pissed off the team. Either way, he was getting into a public argument in the very statement where he said he didn't want to. And terse little laws like "whether he approved or not" imply a management style of which I don't approve. I don't see how he said, "We don't care what our players want". That's some pretty crazy extrapolation from something that isn't event hinted at. He does plainly state that Naniwa is not being entirely honest about no future English speaking teammates coming to Korea, I see no problem with calling someone who is lying to make themselves look better provided that is the case, we aren't sure. The second was a pretty clear statement that they were going to remove him from the team and were looking to do so, effectively suggested he was being "kicked out" in a sense. Considering his history, I'm sort of leaning towards Complexity's side but it seems they didn't know what they were getting into despite Odee briefing them on what to expect. All I read was a guy who tried to set himself up on a pedestal but then couldn't resist taking a jab at Naniwa anyway. And given the tone of both of their statements, I'm going to side with Naniwa. Kyle says they were going to send a player "any week now" which doesn't sound terribly concrete. And fine, they're kicking Naniwa off the team. Naniwa had the grace to make a good statement about how he was actually excited and CoL could have just left it at that. Instead he comes in and trolls. It appears as if Naniwa LIED about Complexity and his situation. How you can see it as wrong that Jason was clarifying things is beyond me. Really? Naniwa lied that CoL had no plans to send anyone to Korea and the best Kyle can offer as a rebuttal is "we're sending one any week now." Sorry, that doesn't sound like great evidence. Also, Naniwa has been in Korea by himself for a long time now and clearly hasn't enjoyed himself. It doesn't surprise me that he doesn't find comfort in "just keep waiting an indeterminate number of weeks and we'll send you a buddy." And there's a difference between clarifying and clearly trying to start something. Jason Lake says Naniwa knew Trimaster would be coming. Nani said Col said NOBODY was coming for a long time. Seems to be clarifying to me, and obviously one side is lying. Considering Naniwa is a very skilled player who cannot manage to stay on a team would lead you to believe he has a terrible personality, even if you don't count his past from WC3 etc. Naniwa also lied about MLG, unless you believe him over Sundance. I don't want to offend Trimaster, but the fact is considering Naniwa's skill level Trimaster is a nobody. Yet it still makes Naniwa a liar. (if it is the actual situation) Let's hold off on calling Naniwa a liar, till Trimaster gets some boots on the ground in Korea. Naniwa does not give a shit about Trimaster coming to korea.
Even if Trimaster comes to korea, im pretty sure that nani has better terrans to practice with, and he doesnt know trimaster so no solution for the lonely part either /:
*Hugs nani*
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On December 09 2011 07:29 Sneakyz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 07:28 ReboundEU wrote:
Waw now that took me by surprise....
1 question tho..i know IM parted ways with Quantic.... i know it was some time ago but even the transfer of naniwa was discussed a long time ago and just now publicly announced. I am not trying to start a flame or hate or anything....but do u guys think IM and Quantic parted ways because naniwa joined them? :o Why would they possibly do that?
Yea I think he has a point. Nestea was probably so offended by Naniwa's horrendous (HORRENDOUS!!!!) BM at MLG that he not only decided to never attend another foreign event, but also to personally break up his teams partnership with Quantic because they had thoughts of acquiring Naniwa.
Actually on 2nd thought.... that's the dumbest thing I've ever written.... no of course that is not why the partnership ended
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On December 09 2011 07:29 Arcanne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 07:17 Hrrrrm wrote:On December 09 2011 07:14 Zalithian wrote:On December 09 2011 07:14 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 09 2011 07:10 Zalithian wrote:On December 09 2011 07:06 Klondikebar wrote:On December 09 2011 07:02 Zalithian wrote:On December 09 2011 07:01 Klondikebar wrote:On December 09 2011 06:58 Mordiford wrote:On December 09 2011 06:53 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Did you read what he said on reddit?
"We're sending TriMaster to Korea any week now and Johan is well aware of that. I'm not going to get into a public argument and wish him the very best but this was a one way decision. His contract was being sold (to Quantic or someone else) whether he approved or not."
Which translates to: I don't want to say anything bad, but I'm going to proceed to say that we don't care what our players want. Or he was STRONGLY implying that Naniwa had pissed off the team. Either way, he was getting into a public argument in the very statement where he said he didn't want to. And terse little laws like "whether he approved or not" imply a management style of which I don't approve. I don't see how he said, "We don't care what our players want". That's some pretty crazy extrapolation from something that isn't event hinted at. He does plainly state that Naniwa is not being entirely honest about no future English speaking teammates coming to Korea, I see no problem with calling someone who is lying to make themselves look better provided that is the case, we aren't sure. The second was a pretty clear statement that they were going to remove him from the team and were looking to do so, effectively suggested he was being "kicked out" in a sense. Considering his history, I'm sort of leaning towards Complexity's side but it seems they didn't know what they were getting into despite Odee briefing them on what to expect. All I read was a guy who tried to set himself up on a pedestal but then couldn't resist taking a jab at Naniwa anyway. And given the tone of both of their statements, I'm going to side with Naniwa. Kyle says they were going to send a player "any week now" which doesn't sound terribly concrete. And fine, they're kicking Naniwa off the team. Naniwa had the grace to make a good statement about how he was actually excited and CoL could have just left it at that. Instead he comes in and trolls. It appears as if Naniwa LIED about Complexity and his situation. How you can see it as wrong that Jason was clarifying things is beyond me. Really? Naniwa lied that CoL had no plans to send anyone to Korea and the best Kyle can offer as a rebuttal is "we're sending one any week now." Sorry, that doesn't sound like great evidence. Also, Naniwa has been in Korea by himself for a long time now and clearly hasn't enjoyed himself. It doesn't surprise me that he doesn't find comfort in "just keep waiting an indeterminate number of weeks and we'll send you a buddy." And there's a difference between clarifying and clearly trying to start something. Jason Lake says Naniwa knew Trimaster would be coming. Nani said Col said NOBODY was coming for a long time. Seems to be clarifying to me, and obviously one side is lying. Considering Naniwa is a very skilled player who cannot manage to stay on a team would lead you to believe he has a terrible personality, even if you don't count his past from WC3 etc. Naniwa also lied about MLG, unless you believe him over Sundance. I don't want to offend Trimaster, but the fact is considering Naniwa's skill level Trimaster is a nobody. Yet it still makes Naniwa a liar. (if it is the actual situation) Let's hold off on calling Naniwa a liar, till Trimaster gets some boots on the ground in Korea. Naniwa does not give a shit about Trimaster coming to korea.
Then he's not serious about leaving because he's feeling lonely due to the lack of an English speaking teammate in the house. That's one of the reasons he gives for leaving.
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United States4991 Posts
On December 09 2011 07:31 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 07:24 sereniity wrote:On December 09 2011 07:17 IPA wrote:On December 09 2011 07:02 milky_muh wrote:On December 09 2011 06:57 Zalithian wrote:On December 09 2011 06:56 milky_muh wrote:On December 09 2011 06:53 ZwuckeL wrote:
why has noone seen this coming? i would have thought everyone has seen it coming, after the fact of nani bm'ing so hard at MLG and putting coL in a very awkward position Hahaha, who/what did he BM? :D I don't know. Major League Gaming, probably the best SC2 tournament in the world, or at least outside Korea. Nestea, one of the most respected players in Korea and the world? I may have missed if he flamed MLG tournament, but he certainly didnt flame or BM nestea. Its just you people who want a reason to hate him. He said several times after the interview about winning MLG invitational, that he did not disrespect any of the other players etc etc. You have no idea what you're talking about. Did you watch MLG Providence? Obviously not or you would know that he did, indeed, BM NesTea and the tournament itself. Please stop posting for a bit. I find it funny that people choose to rabidly, zealously defend Nani and cast a bunch of down on JLake's statements, even when given Nani's history. People see what they want to see I suppose. What a bullshit post... It's okay when MC does his bullshit ceremonies, or when MMA does a kamehameha at IdrA? It seems that YOU have no idea what YOU'RE talking about. Nestea told Naniwa BEFORE the game PERSONALLY that he would CRUSH him. It was all friendly shit Naniwa did to him and he even stated after that he respected him alot, Nestea mentioned Naniwa in a interview afterwards. I find it funny that people choose to rabidly, zealously flame Nani and cast a bunch of down on his behaviour, even when he's getting better in terms of personality. People see what they want to see I suppose. Please stop posting for a bit. Sigh... I'm not gonna refer to Nani's incident in particular, but I always like to address this issue. When a player does a Kamehameha, or does a funny throat slash then proceeds to high-five the crowd when winning, or does a murloc dance, it's just a silly ceremony for the fans. It's for the fan's enjoyment. When a player openly bashes someone, flips the middle finger at someone, etc, that's just to cause anger, basically BM. It's extremely different situations, in extremely different contexts. The latter just shows how little most foreigner players know of showmanship in comparison to their korean counterparts, probably because the korean scene as a whole is so experienced at being public, again in comparison to the foreigners.
I don't agree. I think it's equally "bm" to your opponent in both cases. Maybe it's a cultural difference or something, but I think they're both totally fine, and add to the drama/entertainment of the event for spectators.
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Frankly, at this point I trust Naniwa more than I trust CoL.
Think he'll do well with Quantic Gaming, personally.
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On December 09 2011 07:31 leperphilliac wrote:
Damnit I wish we had real e-sports journalists to get into what really happened. Either Jason Lake is a douche (unlikely) or Naniwa highly offended the team somehow (how?).
or Naniwa wanted a team that was focused on Korea and could provide him with not only companionship but also high level practice partners. Something that Col., objectively, could not do?
Yall just can't even consider a non epeen drama filled scenario can you ? >_>
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On December 09 2011 07:31 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 07:24 sereniity wrote:On December 09 2011 07:17 IPA wrote:On December 09 2011 07:02 milky_muh wrote:On December 09 2011 06:57 Zalithian wrote:On December 09 2011 06:56 milky_muh wrote:On December 09 2011 06:53 ZwuckeL wrote:
why has noone seen this coming? i would have thought everyone has seen it coming, after the fact of nani bm'ing so hard at MLG and putting coL in a very awkward position Hahaha, who/what did he BM? :D I don't know. Major League Gaming, probably the best SC2 tournament in the world, or at least outside Korea. Nestea, one of the most respected players in Korea and the world? I may have missed if he flamed MLG tournament, but he certainly didnt flame or BM nestea. Its just you people who want a reason to hate him. He said several times after the interview about winning MLG invitational, that he did not disrespect any of the other players etc etc. You have no idea what you're talking about. Did you watch MLG Providence? Obviously not or you would know that he did, indeed, BM NesTea and the tournament itself. Please stop posting for a bit. I find it funny that people choose to rabidly, zealously defend Nani and cast a bunch of down on JLake's statements, even when given Nani's history. People see what they want to see I suppose. What a bullshit post... It's okay when MC does his bullshit ceremonies, or when MMA does a kamehameha at IdrA? It seems that YOU have no idea what YOU'RE talking about. Nestea told Naniwa BEFORE the game PERSONALLY that he would CRUSH him. It was all friendly shit Naniwa did to him and he even stated after that he respected him alot, Nestea mentioned Naniwa in a interview afterwards. I find it funny that people choose to rabidly, zealously flame Nani and cast a bunch of down on his behaviour, even when he's getting better in terms of personality. People see what they want to see I suppose. Please stop posting for a bit. Sigh... I'm not gonna refer to Nani's incident in particular, but I always like to address this issue. When a player does a Kamehameha, or does a funny throat slash then proceeds to high-five the crowd when winning, or does a murloc dance, it's just a silly ceremony for the fans. It's for the fan's enjoyment. When a player openly bashes someone, flips the middle finger at someone, etc, that's just to cause anger, basically BM. It's extremely different situations, in extremely different contexts. The latter just shows how little most foreigner players know of showmanship in comparison to their korean counterparts, probably because the korean scene as a whole is so experienced at being public, again in comparison to the foreigners.
Sounds like IdrA.
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EPT
