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On November 16 2011 07:13 luvy wrote:
nice op!
The thing is though, from the streamers point of view, you are still influencing their ladder practice. If you stream-snipe repeadetly you may also scare of the viewers of said stream. You may very well hurt the game-quality of the stream.
You are forcing the player who you are sniping to play versus you, if he wants it or not. And if the player doesnt like the experience of your game you should not force him to play versus you again and again and again. I don't know, it feels kind of weird.
I do understand that you want to have your shiny moment on stream or the opportunity to play versus a high-level opponent, but if you end up repeadetly stream-sniping á la Deezer/Combat-ex i simply cant give you thumbs up for it.
Maybe think a little more critical about your streamsniping and try to empathize with the streamer.
Hi Luvy,
I never snipe players more than once except if they ask for more games! What combatex is known for is not streamsniping, but streamcheating. As I tried to explain in the OP there is quite a difference between those 2.
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On November 16 2011 07:13 luvy wrote:
nice op!
The thing is though, from the streamers point of view, you are still influencing their ladder practice. If you stream-snipe repeadetly you may also scare of the viewers of said stream. You may very well hurt the game-quality of the stream.
You are forcing the player who you are sniping to play versus you, if he wants it or not. And if the player doesnt like the experience of your game you should not force him to play versus you again and again and again. I don't know, it feels kind of weird.
I do understand that you want to have your shiny moment on stream or the opportunity to play versus a high-level opponent, but if you end up repeadetly stream-sniping á la Deezer/Combat-ex i simply cant give you thumbs up for it.
Maybe think a little more critical about your streamsniping and try to empathize with the streamer.
This is actually quite true. But if you maybe swapped a bit between different players, that wouldn't really be a problem. A lot of the time there are maybe 5 pros streaming from the same server and i guess (though I don't have a clue honestly) that you don't get matched with the player you want that often. Put together these to things and maybe 1 out of 10-20 games would be against the same player.
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Put yourself in the shoes of your opponent. If someone makes it obvious that they intentionally are trying to snipe you then you know that at some point they had the stream open, would you trust a stranger to be admirable and shut off the stream? There are scenarios in which there is no cheating going on but the possibility of you cheating ruins any publicity you receive. Try other ways to receive attention and publicity.
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the best cheaters are those who can disguise them selveswell.
i don't care if you stream snipe or not. it does not make your opponent feel good while playing which is bad.
And if there is one thing you learn from administrating a public server is that is someone is suspicious, they are cheaters 99,9% if you follow what they are doing.
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On November 16 2011 07:09 Zzzapper wrote:
And what happens? Deezer actually doesn't stream cheat
lol
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 16 2011 07:09 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote:
lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players.
player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous.
Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat. I don't see why you need to be so defensive about it and rush to judgment. Sniping and cheating really are two different things, I get that your experience with some players has caused you to be irritated and cynical about this, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
Hmm you can call me defensive all you like.. I call it experience. Applying utopian policies and hoping for the best might work in other atmospheres but in SC2 people want a leg up for the most part.. if they have nothing to lose and everything to gain why think they are going to disprove the rule thus far?
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On November 16 2011 07:13 luvy wrote:
nice op!
The thing is though, from the streamers point of view, you are still influencing their ladder practice. If you stream-snipe repeadetly you may also scare of the viewers of said stream. You may very well hurt the game-quality of the stream.
You are forcing the player who you are sniping to play versus you, if he wants it or not. And if the player doesnt like the experience of your game you should not force him to play versus you again and again and again. I don't know, it feels kind of weird.
I do understand that you want to have your shiny moment on stream or the opportunity to play versus a high-level opponent, but if you end up repeadetly stream-sniping á la Deezer/Combat-ex i simply cant give you thumbs up for it.
Maybe think a little more critical about your streamsniping and try to empathize with the streamer.
this guy has it right, some people stream because it adds fun to grinding ladder, when they have to repeatedly play you because you decide so what can they do. People use streams for revenue, sure its not against the rules to stream snipe or stream cheat for that matter, id like to see the rule that says said streamer cant accuse you of cheating. Don't like it? Dont stream snipe, no doubt stream sniping benefits you less than streaming does the streamer.
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The only well known streamer that I can snipe is Orb and he banned me from his stream after he assumed I stream cheat. All I did was queue up against him then mute stream. I only have 1 monitor so alt tabbing would be practically useless based on the speed of the game and everything to do.
I guess its better not to tell anyone that you know of their stream or they will quickly assume you are cheating.
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On November 16 2011 07:17 Ulquiorra wrote:
Put yourself in the shoes of your opponent. If someone makes it obvious that they intentionally are trying to snipe you then you know that at some point they had the stream open, would you trust a stranger to be admirable and shut off the stream? There are scenarios in which there is no cheating going on but the possibility of you cheating ruins any publicity you receive. Try other ways to receive attention and publicity.
Hi Ulquiorra,
I completely understand that there is some kind of distrust towards people who stream snipe, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 16 2011 07:13 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote:
lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players.
player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous.
Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat. That is ultimately the slippery slope fallacy. If you watch a replay and there is no evidence that the person was stream cheating, it's silly to assume they were. I can understand getting annoyed when people use your stream to attention whore. But accusing them of cheating when you have no evidence (and in fact replays can even provide evidence to the contrary) isn't fair to them and just makes you appear sore about a loss.
Eh? I won the game the OP is referring to. If someone spams me with their twitter (like he did) and goes "sup everybody!" and then proceeds to get defensive about me saying "stream cheating is lame" I don't know what to tell you... your faith in humanity is awesome, I don't share it.
When I stream I expect to get cheated against so it isn't the biggest deal. But it's hilarious to have people running around going "you have no proof! just sit there and bite the bullet until you have proof!"
What? Nah, if the guy is obsessed with getting his name out there he will cheat to do it more often than not. You can ignore my perspective if you like but I am one of the biggest streamers around and I am saying this from experience.
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On November 16 2011 07:09 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote:
lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players.
player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous.
Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat. I don't see why you need to be so defensive about it and rush to judgment. Sniping and cheating really are two different things, I get that your experience with some players has caused you to be irritated and cynical about this, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
true, yet sniping for sometimes is sketchy...
just like a guy hanging out at a kids playground for no reason.. hes not yet a pedophile but it is sketchy...
or a guy walking the street , pointing a loaded gun at people, not a murderer yet, but sketchy...
im not saying streamnipers are like murderers or pedophiles  , only that if you act in certain way, you have to accept the associations that come with your behavior...
just like if u hang around the playground for no good reason, people will start talking about you.. although you havnt done anything wrong (yet)...
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On November 16 2011 07:18 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:09 tree.hugger wrote:On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote:
lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players.
player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous.
Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat. I don't see why you need to be so defensive about it and rush to judgment. Sniping and cheating really are two different things, I get that your experience with some players has caused you to be irritated and cynical about this, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here. Hmm you can call me defensive all you like.. I call it experience. Applying utopian policies and hoping for the best might work in other atmospheres but in SC2 people want a leg up for the most part.. if they have nothing to lose and everything to gain why think they are going to disprove the rule thus far?
Just to be nice? It's ladder, what does it cost you to give people the benefit of the doubt?
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On November 16 2011 07:18 aRRoSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:09 Zzzapper wrote:
And what happens? Deezer actually doesn't stream cheat lol
It's actually true. At least playing in a way that doesn't at all counter you opponent and scouting all the time doesn't seem like stream cheating...
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On November 16 2011 07:20 Harstem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:17 Ulquiorra wrote:
Put yourself in the shoes of your opponent. If someone makes it obvious that they intentionally are trying to snipe you then you know that at some point they had the stream open, would you trust a stranger to be admirable and shut off the stream? There are scenarios in which there is no cheating going on but the possibility of you cheating ruins any publicity you receive. Try other ways to receive attention and publicity. Hi Ulquiorra, I completely understand that there is some kind of distrust towards people who stream snipe, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
So people stream for many reasons, revenue, fun, publicity.
You stream snipe (abusing the way ladder should work but technically not breaking any rules) for whatever reasons benefit you despite the negative effect on the streamer.
They call you out for cheating thus hopefully sabotaging any gains from your sniping and possible cheating. fair no?>
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Hmm if steam sniping is for exposure sake don't you think its kind of redundant? The people you are exposed to aren't gonna think you won by skill and label you a cheater. Think about it, regardless of how you try and spin it, if you snipe, and like InControl said, its easy to go that extra step and cheat, and I'm SURE that most do. If you play the game, and your good enough that you can beat pros without cheating, recognition will come naturally... I wouldn't try and force it just play dailies, climb the ladder, and the rest will come... xD
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On November 16 2011 07:21 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:13 Klondikebar wrote:On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote:
lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players.
player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous.
Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat. That is ultimately the slippery slope fallacy. If you watch a replay and there is no evidence that the person was stream cheating, it's silly to assume they were. I can understand getting annoyed when people use your stream to attention whore. But accusing them of cheating when you have no evidence (and in fact replays can even provide evidence to the contrary) isn't fair to them and just makes you appear sore about a loss. Eh? I won the game the OP is referring to. If someone spams me with their twitter (like he did) and goes "sup everybody!" and then proceeds to get defensive about me saying "stream cheating is lame" I don't know what to tell you... your faith in humanity is awesome, I don't share it. When I stream I expect to get cheated against so it isn't the biggest deal. But it's hilarious to have people running around going "you have no proof! just sit there and bite the bullet until you have proof!" What? Nah, if the guy is obsessed with getting his name out there he will cheat to do it more often than not. You can ignore my perspective if you like but I am one of the biggest streamers around and I am saying this from experience.
Your experience certainly trumps mine, I won't deny that. I just think that replays provide enough evidence that we don't need to assume people are cheating or not. We can watch replays and pretty conclusively determine whether or not they are.
And I'm not really referring to any specific game. I'm really only calling you out on a logical fallacy.
Edit: And I do often see streamers accuse their opponents of stream cheating when they lose. I don't think I've ever seen you do it on your stream though.
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On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote:
lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players.
player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous.
Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
I disagree completely.
You could just as well NOT stream snipe and stream cheat anyways, by quickly loading up the stream during the loading screen, and no one would know, correct? Stream sniping shouldn't be factored into the equation whatsoever, imo, as it's not like you're pushing the limits of doing something unethical.
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Hey Harstem, nice OP!
I can understand where you're coming from. It's annoying to be called a cheater in any context. Even more when you're called a cheater by some of the great players in the community that you respect.
In my opinion it's not fair to call people cheaters without any proof. I've seen it happen in the past where someone got called a cheater for having a lucky scout find a proxy, or for simply outplaying his opponent.
I hope you'll be able to get a new computer and start streaming yourself soon :-)
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I can understand a high masters players wanting to play a game on the ladder against an idol. So they stream snipe. That's fine by most people I think... No problem so far. The problem comes when you do it repeatedly and disrupt their ladder practice they were trying to share with their fans. And in some cases, like Destiny's, you're disrupting serious income flow. I think in the future when eSports explodes, streaming ladder live will be less of a likelihood. There will be far more viewers and far more people able to stream snipe(read: in master league). A delay will probably become the norm. That's kind of sad as interacting live with fans is something a lot of pros and fans enjoy.
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On November 16 2011 07:22 JEcho wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:20 Harstem wrote:On November 16 2011 07:17 Ulquiorra wrote:
Put yourself in the shoes of your opponent. If someone makes it obvious that they intentionally are trying to snipe you then you know that at some point they had the stream open, would you trust a stranger to be admirable and shut off the stream? There are scenarios in which there is no cheating going on but the possibility of you cheating ruins any publicity you receive. Try other ways to receive attention and publicity. Hi Ulquiorra, I completely understand that there is some kind of distrust towards people who stream snipe, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here. So people stream for many reasons, revenue, fun, publicity. You stream snipe (abusing the way ladder should work but technically not breaking any rules) for whatever reasons benefit you despite the negative effect on the streamer. They call you out for cheating thus hopefully sabotaging any gains from your sniping and possible cheating. fair no?>
Can you name one negative effect for the streamer if the sniper only snipes once (like harstem does)?
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EPT
