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On November 17 2011 03:03 Herculix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote:
lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players.
player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous.
Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat. lol are you serious? if sheth is found cheating, sheth looks like an idiot. if hammerstanstein is found cheating, he looks like an idiot. what nobody cares about is who hammerstanstein is in the first place, but he will forever be "that guy who cheated." to argue that somehow hammerstanstein doesn't get shit on by doing that is complete nonsense. look at the people who are known for that sort of thing. your argument is awful and you're just trying to justify your poor assumptions without having to admit they're dumb, and it might be out of turn but you also seem to be projecting your loose morals on other people, what lengths you would go to for attention if it wasn't given to you by the community willingly. if i were a random high ranked ladder player i would always snipe good players. playing randoms on ladder is significantly less enjoyable. it's just another tally in your win rate. i'm not good enough for it to match me up with good players in the first place, only reason why i don't. at no point am i ever going to use that to cheat, because that has nothing to do with my goals for it. your argument kind of reminds me of the DEA trying to convince people that marijuana is a gateway drug to cocaine because if you do one drug, well why not do something a weeeeeeee bit more? stronger drugs feel even better! even though one is completely separate from the other.
lol are you serious? If Sheth is found cheating (don't know why we're using him as an example), his career goes down the pipes. If RandomLadderWarrior456 is found cheating, he gets scorned by an internet community and keeps his day job. The level of "being shit on" is completely different, and the stakes are much higher for a pro player who relies on Starcraft 2 for their livelihood.
To the OP: I never understood stream sniping. If you are qualified to match up against players like IdrA and Sheth, you will get them while they are laddering. Using their stream to try to "time it" just encourages accusations of stream cheating. I certainly wouldn't trust some random ladder warrior that I've never met or heard of, so why should Incontrol when you tell him you definitely aren't cheating? Neither one of you can prove it one way or the other, so I (like many people) would revert to the general fact that people on the internet are douchebags.
Also, it looks pretty self-serving and vain to stream snipe for "exposure." The fact that you get a fuzzy feeling for beating a professional player on his stream in a ladder match is pretty pathetic. Those players get that fuzzy feeling for beating professional players in tournament settings. Maybe you should give that a try? And if you aren't participating in tournaments because you don't want to go pro, why the fuck do you care about exposure? Play to enjoy the game and improve your play, that's all that matters unless you are relying on SC2 to pay the bills.
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On November 17 2011 03:44 ZasZ. wrote:
Also, it looks pretty self-serving and vain to stream snipe for "exposure." The fact that you get a fuzzy feeling for beating a professional player on his stream in a ladder match is pretty pathetic. Those players get that fuzzy feeling for beating professional players in tournament settings. Maybe you should give that a try? And if you aren't participating in tournaments because you don't want to go pro, why the fuck do you care about exposure? Play to enjoy the game and improve your play, that's all that matters unless you are relying on SC2 to pay the bills.
Really? You wouldn't get a warm fuzzy feeling if you beat a pro with 5,000 people watching? I got a warm fuzzy feeling just for being some guy who Destiny was coaching his student to play against. I beat Destiny's student 4 games in a row. It was awesome!!
Seriously though, I think Incontrol is right, but you can't fault someone for feeling good after beating a professional player knowing that there were thousands of people watching the game. If you don't feel good after that, you're either Idra or not human.
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I was reluctant to open this thread until today. This line near the end cracked me up:
I hope people learn to appreciate me and my fellow stream snipers
Umm, "appreciate" you? Stream sniping isn't an art or something for me to marvel at.
Edit: I agree with everything this man says.
On November 17 2011 04:02 DrowSwordsman wrote:
Maybe this is just me, but I feel if you want to make yourself known just be a really good player. Even if people realize you're "sniping" and not "cheating" it's generally just not a good vibe. If you want to get yourself out there by streaming, save your pennies and get the hardware to stream yourself. Don't try to get attention by playing people who are streaming and hoping to show off on someone else's stream. Just comes off as immature and attention seeking.
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I think streamers should hide SC2 screen region, when they are finished playing or something, just to prevent stream sniping. I don't think stream-snipers would mind 
If I remember right, I think R1CH made a auto scene program that probably would do a great job hiding SC2 when u are queuing for a game. 
EDIT: Scene switcher Program Link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=241231
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On November 17 2011 03:52 KenZo- wrote:I think streamers should hide SC2 screen region, when they are finished playing or something, just to prevent stream sniping. I don't think stream-snipers would mind If I remember right, I think R1CH made a auto scene program that probably would do a great job hiding SC2 when u are queuing for a game.
Why so complicated? A simple delay does the job.
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On November 17 2011 03:56 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 03:52 KenZo- wrote:I think streamers should hide SC2 screen region, when they are finished playing or something, just to prevent stream sniping. I don't think stream-snipers would mind If I remember right, I think R1CH made a auto scene program that probably would do a great job hiding SC2 when u are queuing for a game. Why so complicated? A simple delay does the job.
I guess that would do as well, tho some streamers like to interact a lot with viewers in chat etc. and to long of a delay 1-2 minutes would maybe be annoying for the broadcaster. but I think a delay probably is a equal or better solution, as it also takes care of the stream-cheaters, at least a little bit.
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Maybe this is just me, but I feel if you want to make yourself known just be a really good player. Even if people realize you're "sniping" and not "cheating" it's generally just not a good vibe. If you want to get yourself out there by streaming, save your pennies and get the hardware to stream yourself. Don't try to get attention by playing people who are streaming and hoping to show off on someone else's stream. Just comes off as immature and attention seeking.
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On November 17 2011 03:52 KenZo- wrote:I think streamers should hide SC2 screen region, when they are finished playing or something, just to prevent stream sniping. I don't think stream-snipers would mind If I remember right, I think R1CH made a auto scene program that probably would do a great job hiding SC2 when u are queuing for a game. EDIT: Scene switcher Program Link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=241231
But you can still hear when player click find match button. Idra is hidding his screen but some bastard was constantly stream sniping and harassing him.
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If you really are good you won't need to snipe players to hit them. Just play your games, enter tournaments, and make your name there. There is no good reason to stream snipe. Stream sniping just seems really lame to me.
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Can anyone provide the replay with the Incontrol incident (Harstem?)- or provide a link to his stream archive (I assume he saves them) with a time index?
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I never streamed so I may not know a few things but why something like this wouldn't work :
Before you click find match, you put a banner on your stream that totally hide your SC2 screen from the views, mute sc2 sound, click on Find match. When the count down stars, you can put your SC2 screen up again, unmute the sound and play.
am I missing something here ?
oh and on topic. According to the OP and all of who think stream snipping isn't a problem, its like if I walk into a bank with a gun and say : I have a gun but dont worry, I will not steal from you. Then once I get arrested, go around and complain about my horrible experiance.
lol come on.
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I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
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On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote:
I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating.
It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
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On November 17 2011 05:20 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote:
I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me. I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating. It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
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On November 17 2011 04:31 marcjpb wrote:
I never streamed so I may not know a few things but why something like this wouldn't work
If you watch the stream of high profile players that do this, it actually doesn't work. There are ways around it. The better known snipers just use the friend system to see when a person is searching for matchmaking, or can just see when they are in and out of games.
I get not everyone knows this, but non streamers acting like they know how to avoid being stream sniped but none of the 1000 - 4000 viewer streamers don't is silly. This isn't just for you but every time a thread like this comes up people who don't have a large streaming base seem to believe they have the magical solution and streamers are lazy.
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On November 17 2011 05:33 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 05:20 ZasZ. wrote:On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote:
I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me. I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating. It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account. Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
as·sump·tion/əˈsəm(p)SHən/
Noun:
A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof
Hello! Welcome to the real world where people make assumptions with no hard evidence or proof all the time! By definition, you make assumptions to make life easier when there is no hard evidence. Sometimes they come back to bite you in the ass, but that's the nature of it.
Incontrol is well within his rights to think somebody stream sniping him is also watching his stream and using it to gain an unfair advantage over him. That doesn't mean he's right or wrong about it. Would he be justified in making a thread on TL calling this person out? Probably not, without proof. Is he entitled to call the guy out on battle.net for what he thinks he is? Certainly.
Meanwhile, the OP seems to think he needs to conduct a public campaign to clear the names of all honorable stream snipers out there. I'm sure there are honorable stream snipers out there (and the OP may be one of them) but what exactly is the point of this thread? Again, it just comes across as attention seeking. When he snipes, people will often assume he is cheating too, and that's just how it's going to be.
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On November 17 2011 06:32 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 05:33 Klondikebar wrote:On November 17 2011 05:20 ZasZ. wrote:On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote:
I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me. I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating. It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account. Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice. as·sump·tion/əˈsəm(p)SHən/ Noun: A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof Hello! Welcome to the real world where people make assumptions with no hard evidence or proof all the time! By definition, you make assumptions to make life easier when there is no hard evidence. Sometimes they come back to bite you in the ass, but that's the nature of it. Incontrol is well within his rights to think somebody stream sniping him is also watching his stream and using it to gain an unfair advantage over him. That doesn't mean he's right or wrong about it. Would he be justified in making a thread on TL calling this person out? Probably not, without proof. Is he entitled to call the guy out on battle.net for what he thinks he is? Certainly. Meanwhile, the OP seems to think he needs to conduct a public campaign to clear the names of all honorable stream snipers out there. I'm sure there are honorable stream snipers out there (and the OP may be one of them) but what exactly is the point of this thread? Again, it just comes across as attention seeking. When he snipes, people will often assume he is cheating too, and that's just how it's going to be.
No, you don't usually draw conclusions without facts. That's not a good way to live your life. Do you often have conclusive proof? No. Should you be drawing conclusions with no evidence whatsoever? No.
And let's be honest, there is plenty of evidence. If iNcontroL actually cared whether or not this person was stream cheating he could watch the replays. You really don't need to assume.
And I do want to distinguish between evidence and proof. Proof is incredibly hard to get and if you only drew conclusions when you had proof you probably wouldn't be able to leave your house.
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On November 17 2011 06:36 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:32 ZasZ. wrote:On November 17 2011 05:33 Klondikebar wrote:On November 17 2011 05:20 ZasZ. wrote:On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote:
I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me. I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating. It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account. Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice. as·sump·tion/əˈsəm(p)SHən/ Noun: A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof Hello! Welcome to the real world where people make assumptions with no hard evidence or proof all the time! By definition, you make assumptions to make life easier when there is no hard evidence. Sometimes they come back to bite you in the ass, but that's the nature of it. Incontrol is well within his rights to think somebody stream sniping him is also watching his stream and using it to gain an unfair advantage over him. That doesn't mean he's right or wrong about it. Would he be justified in making a thread on TL calling this person out? Probably not, without proof. Is he entitled to call the guy out on battle.net for what he thinks he is? Certainly. Meanwhile, the OP seems to think he needs to conduct a public campaign to clear the names of all honorable stream snipers out there. I'm sure there are honorable stream snipers out there (and the OP may be one of them) but what exactly is the point of this thread? Again, it just comes across as attention seeking. When he snipes, people will often assume he is cheating too, and that's just how it's going to be. No, you don't usually draw conclusions without facts. That's not a good way to live your life. Do you often have conclusive proof? No. Should you be drawing conclusions with no evidence whatsoever? No. And let's be honest, there is plenty of evidence. If iNcontroL actually cared whether or not this person was stream cheating he could watch the replays. You really don't need to assume.
You seem to be using "assumption" and "conclusion" synonymously. Hard evidence is required for a conclusion. Drawing a conclusion without hard evidence is, by definition, an assumption. Many small assumptions are often made (without proof) in order to come to a larger conclusion (any scientific process, ever).
If Incontrol actually cared, you're right, he would look up the evidence, and post it all over TL about how bad this person is IRLz. But he probably doesn't. He just knows he got stream-sniped (fact) that it kind of looked like a stream-cheater (assumption) and then decided afterward he wasn't sure.
Meanwhile this guy gets his metaphorical panties in a twist when people assume the worst of him. I'm just trying to be realistic here, in that everyone always assumes the worst from netizens until they know better (and can draw conclusions!), because you don't get burned that way.
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If I was good enough, I would also try to stream snipe iNcontroL, Tyler, Stephano, IdrA, and every damn pro player out there. It is a dream come true to fight these guys once.
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On November 17 2011 06:45 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:36 Klondikebar wrote:On November 17 2011 06:32 ZasZ. wrote:On November 17 2011 05:33 Klondikebar wrote:On November 17 2011 05:20 ZasZ. wrote:On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote:
I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me. I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating. It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account. Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice. as·sump·tion/əˈsəm(p)SHən/ Noun: A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof Hello! Welcome to the real world where people make assumptions with no hard evidence or proof all the time! By definition, you make assumptions to make life easier when there is no hard evidence. Sometimes they come back to bite you in the ass, but that's the nature of it. Incontrol is well within his rights to think somebody stream sniping him is also watching his stream and using it to gain an unfair advantage over him. That doesn't mean he's right or wrong about it. Would he be justified in making a thread on TL calling this person out? Probably not, without proof. Is he entitled to call the guy out on battle.net for what he thinks he is? Certainly. Meanwhile, the OP seems to think he needs to conduct a public campaign to clear the names of all honorable stream snipers out there. I'm sure there are honorable stream snipers out there (and the OP may be one of them) but what exactly is the point of this thread? Again, it just comes across as attention seeking. When he snipes, people will often assume he is cheating too, and that's just how it's going to be. No, you don't usually draw conclusions without facts. That's not a good way to live your life. Do you often have conclusive proof? No. Should you be drawing conclusions with no evidence whatsoever? No. And let's be honest, there is plenty of evidence. If iNcontroL actually cared whether or not this person was stream cheating he could watch the replays. You really don't need to assume. You seem to be using "assumption" and "conclusion" synonymously. Hard evidence is required for a conclusion. Drawing a conclusion without hard evidence is, by definition, an assumption. Many small assumptions are often made (without proof) in order to come to a larger conclusion (any scientific process, ever). If Incontrol actually cared, you're right, he would look up the evidence, and post it all over TL about how bad this person is IRLz. But he probably doesn't. He just knows he got stream-sniped (fact) that it kind of looked like a stream-cheater (assumption) and then decided afterward he wasn't sure. Meanwhile this guy gets his metaphorical panties in a twist when people assume the worst of him. I'm just trying to be realistic here, in that everyone always assumes the worst from netizens until they know better (and can draw conclusions!), because you don't get burned that way.
I'm not a fan of assuming that everyone on the internet is immediately a jerk. I think it makes the environment more hostile than it needs to be and oftentimes turns what could be good discussions into trolling and name calling all too quickly.
Like this very thread; it could have been a discussion about whether stream sniping (without cheating) is ok but instead you have tons of people insisting that the cheating comes along with the sniping, calling the OP an attention whore, and a pro gamer posting about how jaded he is about the very community that supports him.
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EPT
