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On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote:
If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
Emphasis mine. But he/she puts it in the best way, I don't see a point in OP creating such a thread.
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On November 16 2011 21:36 AlternativeEgo wrote:
^ That was one hell of a solid post.
And his first one as well.
Kudos!
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I am a top 10 NA Grandmaster, and I stream snipe a player of interest intentionally only maybe one or twice a month. However, hate to tell you guys, I hit featured streamers all the time because, guess what, I'm at or above their level on ladder and I match them. For example, yesterday I hit MillStephano on ladder when he was streaming, does that mean i stream sniped him? Nope! All top players only have maybe 80-100 players they would match due to MMR matching, and since most players like 5-6 hours a day, then it's kind of obvious that they'll play each other often. This isn't copper league, there aren't 20,000 people to play at the top, only a handful, so u see a lot of the same faces. And if OP is good enough to match these featured streamers that means he's good enough to get to their level, it;s not like he stream sniped his way to the top. Get real.
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Thanks for the thread. A lot of people seem to think that sniping and cheating are the exact same thing.
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On November 16 2011 06:55 Harstem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 06:52 Willba wrote:
I was watching Beastyqt's stream and I saw he was annoyed with you stream sniping him, he implied that you've done it multiple times as well. Maybe you should not stream snipe people who you know don't like it. Otherwise I don't really see any problem with it. Hi Willba, Yes I have sniped beastyqt in the past, but I stopped that maybe 1 month ago. However I still ladder and sometimes get matched against him. That is something he has to deal with, because there is no way in avoiding that!
but that players like beasty flame instant and like to do is known ^^ i think if you snipe ra he really coult not care less 
snipe the cool guys, diss the bad guys ^^
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On November 16 2011 22:07 beamingrobot wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote:
If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
Emphasis mine. But he/she puts it in the best way, I don't see a point in OP creating such a thread.
Agreed.
Also I'm pretty disturbed by the fact that you stream snipe to get in free advertisement, bragging rights and publicity. You realize that's basically leeching of the said streamer, who has done none of the above to get viewers interested in watching his stream.
These are people putting themselves out there, interacting with the community, sharing their strategies etc. because they are trying to make their living off this. The downsides of this is that you are exposing yourself even more to your competitiors i.e they get a better grasp of how you think, what strategies you like, your tendencies etc. To have "unknowns" trying to jump in and abuse this by using another players stream as a medium to put themselves out there is wrong in my book. There are of course nothing that makes this legally wrong, but morally I'd say its questionable.
Arguing it's hard enough for unknown players to get publicity or/and that you don't have a good enough computer doesn't really justify it seeing how all of these players started from scratch, and I can bet you that they didn't rise to fame by stream sniping.
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While I can understand the frustration of being accused of cheating if in fact you aren't. I think it's easy to understand the well known player / peoples point of view. Cheating or not when you are trying to practice and are streaming as well, it eventually gets boring for their viewers and frustrating for the players to play the same person on ladder over and over again.
That's why these guys have teams to do things like repeatedly play 1 match up, and get feedback or try stuff with their team mate. If / when someone is using ladder for practice they are more likely then not going to be doing it for the variety.
As far as getting known goes, stream sniping is not likely to get you known for anything positive. My suggestion would be to enter tournaments and if you are capable win them. If you can do that you'll get noticed, if you can't then frankly you may not be skilled enough yet to receive recognition.
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On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote:
If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
In regards to the OP's situation, he guessed you were stream cheating because you put yourself in a situation where he could reasonably assume that you were doing so. Had you not cried out quite so loudly "Hey iNcontroL! I'm on your stream!" you would have been fine.. though of course, 5k people wouldn't have seen your twitter.
One point I find startling here is how many people in this thread are up in arms about professionalism. I wouldn't call iNcontroL's statements professional, but I wouldn't give him a citation and have him fined or anything either. He called it as he saw it, nothing more. Emotional, yes. Worthy of scrutiny, not really. There are ways you can prevent being perceived in such a fashion if the issue is really so important to you.
Also, about the damage he has done to your potential professional career by calling you out as a stream sniper or cheater.. No offense, but nobody was going to remember you for a one-off incident on iNcontroL's stream, I promise you. That kind of recognition came with a 15 page thread about stream cheating subtleties. If you had been matched against him 6 times in a row and were clearly demonstrating knowledge of the stream.. you are going to come off with a bad image, which is not only your fault, but also a big thing you need to consider when you're trying to go pro. Besides, professionals aren't made through stream sniping, they are made through results at tournaments, which you have already stated you lack the time or means to participate in.
I'm sure everybody understands the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating. It seems to me though that most of the community has a clear grasp on the kind of people known to participate in those sorts of activities, and it is unfortunate that through your demeanor you appeared to be one of them. Stream sniping can be fine to find good competition, but if you overdo it you're going to make a bad name for yourself. Like I said, this doesn't only mean repetitive targeting of the same streamer, but also calling attention to yourself and trying to piggyback on his fame. It isn't necessarily wrong, but it is annoying, and you can expect aggravated remarks if that's how you act.
Quoting again, simply because it is that good of a post.
Just because something isn't wrong, doesn't make it right. Just because something isn't considered illegal, or cheating, or against the rules, doesn't make it right either. You are choosing to do something that people consider annoying, and that lumps you in a group that gets pegged a certain way(as cheaters). Guilt by association is something that exists, and you have every right to stream snipe all you want. Knock yourself out. But don't be shocked and run to the forum when something negative comes of it.
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id say trying to get matched vs a pro once to get practise and to see how you'd do is nothing wrong with as long as you dont cheat or do it so obnoxious like deezerfuck
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On November 16 2011 23:13 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 06:55 Harstem wrote:On November 16 2011 06:52 Willba wrote:
I was watching Beastyqt's stream and I saw he was annoyed with you stream sniping him, he implied that you've done it multiple times as well. Maybe you should not stream snipe people who you know don't like it. Otherwise I don't really see any problem with it. Hi Willba, Yes I have sniped beastyqt in the past, but I stopped that maybe 1 month ago. However I still ladder and sometimes get matched against him. That is something he has to deal with, because there is no way in avoiding that! but that players like beasty flame instant and like to do is known ^^ i think if you snipe ra he really coult not care less snipe the cool guys, diss the bad guys ^^
Yes im the bad guy for not wanting to get matched vs same person 5 times in a row that 4-6 gates me, okay.
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I stream snipe myself and i don't see anything wrong with it. Maybe the OP does it wrong because he wants people to recognize/see him but i do it only to play against top players since most of the time you get unknown players on the ladder. If i snipe for example Stephano, it's both good for me and people watching because they got an interesting match.
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On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerchio wrote:
I stream snipe myself and i don't see anything wrong with it. Maybe the OP does it wrong because he wants people to recognize/see him but i do it only to play against top players since most of the time you get unknown players on the ladder. If i snipe for example Stephano, it's both good for me and people watching because they got an interesting match.
i bet you are watching tournament streams,meanwhile you playing in this tournament...
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On November 17 2011 00:05 cklrkzk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerchio wrote:
I stream snipe myself and i don't see anything wrong with it. Maybe the OP does it wrong because he wants people to recognize/see him but i do it only to play against top players since most of the time you get unknown players on the ladder. If i snipe for example Stephano, it's both good for me and people watching because they got an interesting match. i bet you are watching tournament streams,meanwhile you playing in this tournament...
Thats not topic of the thread 
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On November 17 2011 00:06 Tarotis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 00:05 cklrkzk wrote:On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerchio wrote:
I stream snipe myself and i don't see anything wrong with it. Maybe the OP does it wrong because he wants people to recognize/see him but i do it only to play against top players since most of the time you get unknown players on the ladder. If i snipe for example Stephano, it's both good for me and people watching because they got an interesting match. i bet you are watching tournament streams,meanwhile you playing in this tournament... Thats not topic of the thread
you are right,im sorry.
stream snipe is not good,if you wanna practice/play with this player,just ask him,okay?
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On November 16 2011 23:58 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 23:13 CoR wrote:On November 16 2011 06:55 Harstem wrote:On November 16 2011 06:52 Willba wrote:
I was watching Beastyqt's stream and I saw he was annoyed with you stream sniping him, he implied that you've done it multiple times as well. Maybe you should not stream snipe people who you know don't like it. Otherwise I don't really see any problem with it. Hi Willba, Yes I have sniped beastyqt in the past, but I stopped that maybe 1 month ago. However I still ladder and sometimes get matched against him. That is something he has to deal with, because there is no way in avoiding that! but that players like beasty flame instant and like to do is known ^^ i think if you snipe ra he really coult not care less snipe the cool guys, diss the bad guys ^^ Yes im the bad guy for not wanting to get matched vs same person 5 times in a row that 4-6 gates me, okay.
I never 4-6gated you and I never played vs you more than once. As I said I stopped sniping you quite a while ago, our recent games have been cuz of ladder matching us.
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On November 16 2011 06:41 Harstem wrote:EDIT: I only snipe streamers once, if I get matched up with streamers multiple times in a row(while laddering) it is not my fault, but the system's Dear TeamLiquid, most of you guys will not know so let me introduce myself: I am Kevin "Harstem" de Koning a young dutch protoss player who likes to stream snipe famous players every now and then. When the game was released a lot of players started a stream. To get more exposure, get money from commercials, to have fun with the viewers, interact with the community etc. One downside of streaming is the fact that the opponent can easily open your stream and see what you are doing. This is really annoying for the streamers and even though it sometimes is fun to watch it also annoys the viewers. The only way to stop this is by either delaying the stream a few minutes or by turning off the stream. The reason I made this thread is to show people the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating. As I stated above stream-cheating is really annoying and people who win games by stream-cheating should not deserve any credit whatsoever(in my opinion). Stream sniping on the other hand is something completely different. When a person stream snipes, he tries to match a professional/well known player by watching their stream and try to search at the same time. If the MMR of the player sniping and the proffesional/well known player is the same or close to the same there is a high probability to find the streamer! Instead of playing versus average joe you are playing versus Incontrol, Idra, Kas, HuK etc. Unfortunately not all streamers can appreciate it and sometimes they even falsely accuse you of stream-cheating. This is the opposite of what you want, because when I stream snipe I do this to get free good publicity while playing versus extremely good players. The feeling of winning while your opponent is having 5000+ viewers is really hard to describe, but it feels damn good. What I am trying to say is: If someone is stream sniping this doesn't necessarily mean they are stream cheating. Lately I am getting more and more streamers who are saying "don't mind this guy, he is a cheater" without even knowing me. This isn't only putting me in a bad daylight, but it also affects my play. When my opponent tells me "u streamcheat" I scout less, because I know that if I find his proxy pylon or his hidden gate he will be like "See this guy is a cheater, fucking scrub". I hope people learn to appreciate me and my fellow stream snipers more and stop falsely accusing me and others of cheating when we are not. Have a nice day, Kevin "Harstem" de Koning Don't be to harsh on my english please <3 tyty I could not word my feelings any better than Uncultured did in his postShow nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote:
Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
This whole thing is getting absolutely ridiculous!
I have followed the whole discussion and I find it pathetic that you:
1) Try get attention and fame on someone else's account.
- why not just become better, play in tournaments etc. But you want the quick and easy fix. You know, taking the shortcut comes oftentimes with a prize. If you take it, you have to willing to pay! And hey you want publicity? Some say even bad publicity is still publicity, so wohoo there you go!
2) Try to justify your actions by trying to find likeminded people.
Just because you find people who have the same opinion as you, doesnt make it right. I'm saying this without any predisposition, and I know this goes either way. But again, just because you try to justify it, and you find people who have same opinion doesnt make it right.
3) Try to say you shouldn't be referred to as cheater, because there is no evidence is simply one of the dumbest things I have ever heard!
- Let me elaborate a little. In real life, in order to proof someones guild, he has to be accused of a crime first. In order be accused of something, there must be evidence. True! But that evidence is also present in this case. You are a streamsniper, said so yourself. So if you cheat by streamcheating, there is no hard evidence. Simply because you don't look through the fog of war etc. But, in criminal sense, there is circumstantial evidence: Time, Opportunity, Means, and Motive. You sniped, so did watch the stream, you want fame, and you cannot proof that you didnt cheat. So I believe there is enough evidence to assume your guilt - it is not proofen, but the assumption alone is reasonable.
now you may say, blablabla but you cant just accuse people, and they dont need to proof their innocence.
Well, take customs for example. If I come to went to the US for vacation, and come back to Europe, and I have like 3 suitcases but only stayed for a week, customs is going to suspicious. If they look into my shit and find a bunch a new macbooks, abercrombie stuff and whatnot, they will ASSUME i bought it there, and I am the one that must proof I didnt!
4) Your inability to see your own hand in this is just mindblowing.
- If you go in a bank with a freakin ski-mask, what you think will happen?
People will ASSUME you are a bankrobber. (ROFL, still cant believe I have to spell this out..)
If you are in gang, people will ASSUME you are a criminal.
People will ASSUME you are criminal, whether you intent to rob the bank.
People will ASSUME you are a criminal because you are in gang, whether you have done anything or not.
If do certain things, you have to accept the consequences, and live with the associations that come with it.
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If you dont want be called a cheater:
1. Dont streamsnipe!
2. Streamsnipe and streamyourself. (Thats no proof you could still have the other stream on a separate monitor, but it will be easier detected by your own viewers).
And blablabla if you dont have the pc to stream etc, I kindly refer to point 1. DONT STREAMSNIPE.
ROFL THIS IS RIDICULOUS!
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On November 16 2011 06:52 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 06:48 Harstem wrote:On November 16 2011 06:45 Hassybaby wrote:
Hey Harstem, ty for the write-up.
i've never thought of it in that way, and I'm glad you wrote this. However, while I don't doubt your intentions, I think the main problem is that a lot of stream snipers don't see it that way, and prefer to just harass the pro players, or outright cheat. While I understand how you are not one of them, I hope you can see why people think you are
Hopefully after this case though, it won't be the same. Good luck in your games! I think most stream snipers want to get exposure and attention. I for example dont have a good enough computer to stream, i can barely run sc2 on low graphics. This way people still can see me play and I think everybody likes to be in the spotlight and so do I! If you deserve recognition, you'll be noticed. By entering tournaments and placing well, you'll get the recognition you deserve. Its shady for people to try to use someone else's prestige to leech off of.
Above statement hits home!!! Don't be a moocher
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Since tyhe most fun thing about watching a stream is when they get sniped, or combatEX stream cheats. Schadenfreude I believe is the word best describe it.
Seeing the streamer get annoyed brings me a lot of amusement since most SC2-streamers are boring to watch otherwise.
But honestly, just do as you please. I don't really mind one or the other, but of course, can't speak from a professional view
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On November 16 2011 06:45 Hassybaby wrote:
Hey Harstem, ty for the write-up.
i've never thought of it in that way, and I'm glad you wrote this. However, while I don't doubt your intentions, I think the main problem is that a lot of stream snipers don't see it that way, and prefer to just harass the pro players, or outright cheat. While I understand how you are not one of them, I hope you can see why people think you are
Hopefully after this case though, it won't be the same. Good luck in your games!
Yeah I think this may sum it up
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On November 17 2011 01:18 stillearning wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 06:52 Mohdoo wrote:
If you deserve recognition, you'll be noticed. By entering tournaments and placing well, you'll get the recognition you deserve. Its shady for people to try to use someone else's prestige to leech off of. Above statement hits home!!! Don't be a moocher
Are we sure about that? There are some top quality players that don't get the recognition. If we looked at Stephano before IPL (or I guess before the whole Mil vs Col event), did he really get the recognition he deserved? We can make the argument that he didn't win any big tournaments but there could be other factors (e.g. he was still in school). Now he gets thousands of viewers and is featured. There are plenty of great players out there that we just don't know about who have reasons why they can't spend a ton of money to attend a big tournament.
My concern is that the decks are stacked against new people trying to break into the scene. And I'm assuming here, but it seems difficult to get a consistently high number of people (more than 100) for most streams. And it seems difficult to make a strong run at MLG now given how stacked open brackets are becoming. This was talked about last night on ITG where they mentioned how few new non-Korean player were being discovered. This could easily be that the systems in place prevent this from happening.
Now I don't know how I feel about stream sniping, if it's once, I don't see a big deal about it. But it's sort of like a gateway drug towards multiple sniping and potentially cheating.
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EPT
