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On November 16 2011 23:26 dignitas.merz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 22:07 beamingrobot wrote:On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote:
If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
Emphasis mine. But he/she puts it in the best way, I don't see a point in OP creating such a thread. Agreed. Also I'm pretty disturbed by the fact that you stream snipe to get in free advertisement, bragging rights and publicity. You realize that's basically leeching of the said streamer, who has done none of the above to get viewers interested in watching his stream. These are people putting themselves out there, interacting with the community, sharing their strategies etc. because they are trying to make their living off this. The downsides of this is that you are exposing yourself even more to your competitiors i.e they get a better grasp of how you think, what strategies you like, your tendencies etc. To have "unknowns" trying to jump in and abuse this by using another players stream as a medium to put themselves out there is wrong in my book. There are of course nothing that makes this legally wrong, but morally I'd say its questionable. Arguing it's hard enough for unknown players to get publicity or/and that you don't have a good enough computer doesn't really justify it seeing how all of these players started from scratch, and I can bet you that they didn't rise to fame by stream sniping.
I don't really understand your morality argument. To say you'd be leeching off someone insinuates you're profiting at their expense. But in the actual case, you're profiting while they are staying the same, no? If you stream sniping actively hurt them, I could see an argument, but I don't understand where that is happening.
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On November 17 2011 02:02 Eventine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 01:18 stillearning wrote:On November 16 2011 06:52 Mohdoo wrote:
If you deserve recognition, you'll be noticed. By entering tournaments and placing well, you'll get the recognition you deserve. Its shady for people to try to use someone else's prestige to leech off of. Above statement hits home!!! Don't be a moocher Are we sure about that? There are some top quality players that don't get the recognition. If we looked at Stephano before IPL (or I guess before the whole Mil vs Col event), did he really get the recognition he deserved? We can make the argument that he didn't win any big tournaments but there could be other factors (e.g. he was still in school). Now he gets thousands of viewers and is featured. There are plenty of great players out there that we just don't know about who have reasons why they can't spend a ton of money to attend a big tournament. My concern is that the decks are stacked against new people trying to break into the scene. And I'm assuming here, but it seems difficult to get a consistently high number of people (more than 100) for most streams. And it seems difficult to make a strong run at MLG now given how stacked open brackets are becoming. This was talked about last night on ITG where they mentioned how few new non-Korean player were being discovered. This could easily be that the systems in place prevent this from happening. Now I don't know how I feel about stream sniping, if it's once, I don't see a big deal about it. But it's sort of like a gateway drug towards multiple sniping and potentially cheating.
Actually, I am not sure about that, considering that a vast majority of the tournaments are invites, favoring popularity over skill.
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On November 17 2011 02:10 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 02:02 Eventine wrote:On November 17 2011 01:18 stillearning wrote:On November 16 2011 06:52 Mohdoo wrote:
If you deserve recognition, you'll be noticed. By entering tournaments and placing well, you'll get the recognition you deserve. Its shady for people to try to use someone else's prestige to leech off of. Above statement hits home!!! Don't be a moocher Are we sure about that? There are some top quality players that don't get the recognition. If we looked at Stephano before IPL (or I guess before the whole Mil vs Col event), did he really get the recognition he deserved? We can make the argument that he didn't win any big tournaments but there could be other factors (e.g. he was still in school). Now he gets thousands of viewers and is featured. There are plenty of great players out there that we just don't know about who have reasons why they can't spend a ton of money to attend a big tournament. My concern is that the decks are stacked against new people trying to break into the scene. And I'm assuming here, but it seems difficult to get a consistently high number of people (more than 100) for most streams. And it seems difficult to make a strong run at MLG now given how stacked open brackets are becoming. This was talked about last night on ITG where they mentioned how few new non-Korean player were being discovered. This could easily be that the systems in place prevent this from happening. Now I don't know how I feel about stream sniping, if it's once, I don't see a big deal about it. But it's sort of like a gateway drug towards multiple sniping and potentially cheating. Actually, I am not sure about that, considering that a vast majority of the tournaments are invites, favoring popularity over skill.
That's a fair point, but how would you build popularity? In my mind this is a chicken or the egg situation. The quoted poster suggests performing well in tournaments, to your point, you might not even be invited to prestigious tournaments making your opportunities even fewer.
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On November 17 2011 02:07 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 23:26 dignitas.merz wrote:On November 16 2011 22:07 beamingrobot wrote:On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote:
If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
Emphasis mine. But he/she puts it in the best way, I don't see a point in OP creating such a thread. Agreed. Also I'm pretty disturbed by the fact that you stream snipe to get in free advertisement, bragging rights and publicity. You realize that's basically leeching of the said streamer, who has done none of the above to get viewers interested in watching his stream. These are people putting themselves out there, interacting with the community, sharing their strategies etc. because they are trying to make their living off this. The downsides of this is that you are exposing yourself even more to your competitiors i.e they get a better grasp of how you think, what strategies you like, your tendencies etc. To have "unknowns" trying to jump in and abuse this by using another players stream as a medium to put themselves out there is wrong in my book. There are of course nothing that makes this legally wrong, but morally I'd say its questionable. Arguing it's hard enough for unknown players to get publicity or/and that you don't have a good enough computer doesn't really justify it seeing how all of these players started from scratch, and I can bet you that they didn't rise to fame by stream sniping. I don't really understand your morality argument. To say you'd be leeching off someone insinuates you're profiting at their expense. But in the actual case, you're profiting while they are staying the same, no? If you stream sniping actively hurt them, I could see an argument, but I don't understand where that is happening.
Not to mention, if you are "stream sniping" them, your MMR is at a level comparative to them. So it's not like they're scrub stomping some bronzie. They're playing people in Grand Master ladder and shit.
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I have nothing against you or others stream sniping if it doesn't include stream cheating as well.
However Harstem, I seriously have something against you because everytime I see you stream snipe someone you are an unbelievable dick to the person, win or lose, and I've even seen you harass the people you stream snipe AFTER their games, once they're already in another one. Learn to let go, and learn to stop being such an asshole. I for one don't find your antics interesting at all simply for the fact that you completely delegitimize them by just being so obnoxious and rude. You remind me so much of an EU ladder Deezer.
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On November 17 2011 02:12 Eventine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 02:10 JustPassingBy wrote:On November 17 2011 02:02 Eventine wrote:On November 17 2011 01:18 stillearning wrote:On November 16 2011 06:52 Mohdoo wrote:
If you deserve recognition, you'll be noticed. By entering tournaments and placing well, you'll get the recognition you deserve. Its shady for people to try to use someone else's prestige to leech off of. Above statement hits home!!! Don't be a moocher Are we sure about that? There are some top quality players that don't get the recognition. If we looked at Stephano before IPL (or I guess before the whole Mil vs Col event), did he really get the recognition he deserved? We can make the argument that he didn't win any big tournaments but there could be other factors (e.g. he was still in school). Now he gets thousands of viewers and is featured. There are plenty of great players out there that we just don't know about who have reasons why they can't spend a ton of money to attend a big tournament. My concern is that the decks are stacked against new people trying to break into the scene. And I'm assuming here, but it seems difficult to get a consistently high number of people (more than 100) for most streams. And it seems difficult to make a strong run at MLG now given how stacked open brackets are becoming. This was talked about last night on ITG where they mentioned how few new non-Korean player were being discovered. This could easily be that the systems in place prevent this from happening. Now I don't know how I feel about stream sniping, if it's once, I don't see a big deal about it. But it's sort of like a gateway drug towards multiple sniping and potentially cheating. Actually, I am not sure about that, considering that a vast majority of the tournaments are invites, favoring popularity over skill. That's a fair point, but how would you build popularity? In my mind this is a chicken or the egg situation. The quoted poster suggests performing well in tournaments, to your point, you might not even be invited to prestigious tournaments making your opportunities even fewer.
Hm? Maybe we are talking past each other. I agree with your statement, because I don't think that you might not be able to get the recognition "you deserve" in "reasonable" time ("..."=based on opinion) just by entering tournaments, because there are so few of them that are prestigious and open to everybody. Even if you participate and place high in several small cups, now that the TL roundup is gone, many people won't even notice it.
In an ideal world, all tournaments would be open to everybody and players would practise secretely, streaming would be nothing more than service for the fans. But the current world (of competitive gaming) sadly isn't that great. Many tournaments want insta-popularity by inviting popular players (like Dreamhack) and many players need the revenue generated by the stream to support them, teams do not have enough financial support of the sponsors yet to pay them wages of which they can live.
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On November 17 2011 02:24 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 02:12 Eventine wrote:On November 17 2011 02:10 JustPassingBy wrote:On November 17 2011 02:02 Eventine wrote:On November 17 2011 01:18 stillearning wrote:On November 16 2011 06:52 Mohdoo wrote:
If you deserve recognition, you'll be noticed. By entering tournaments and placing well, you'll get the recognition you deserve. Its shady for people to try to use someone else's prestige to leech off of. Above statement hits home!!! Don't be a moocher Are we sure about that? There are some top quality players that don't get the recognition. If we looked at Stephano before IPL (or I guess before the whole Mil vs Col event), did he really get the recognition he deserved? We can make the argument that he didn't win any big tournaments but there could be other factors (e.g. he was still in school). Now he gets thousands of viewers and is featured. There are plenty of great players out there that we just don't know about who have reasons why they can't spend a ton of money to attend a big tournament. My concern is that the decks are stacked against new people trying to break into the scene. And I'm assuming here, but it seems difficult to get a consistently high number of people (more than 100) for most streams. And it seems difficult to make a strong run at MLG now given how stacked open brackets are becoming. This was talked about last night on ITG where they mentioned how few new non-Korean player were being discovered. This could easily be that the systems in place prevent this from happening. Now I don't know how I feel about stream sniping, if it's once, I don't see a big deal about it. But it's sort of like a gateway drug towards multiple sniping and potentially cheating. Actually, I am not sure about that, considering that a vast majority of the tournaments are invites, favoring popularity over skill. That's a fair point, but how would you build popularity? In my mind this is a chicken or the egg situation. The quoted poster suggests performing well in tournaments, to your point, you might not even be invited to prestigious tournaments making your opportunities even fewer. Hm? Maybe we are talking past each other. I agree with your statement, because I don't think that you might not be able to get the recognition "you deserve" in "reasonable" time ("..."=based on opinion) just by entering tournaments, because there are so few of them that are prestigious and open to everybody. Even if you participate and place high in several small cups, now that the TL roundup is gone, many people won't even notice it. In an ideal world, all tournaments would be open to everybody and players would practise secretely, streaming would be nothing more than service for the fans. But the current world (of competitive gaming) sadly isn't that great. Many tournaments want insta-popularity by inviting popular players (like Dreamhack) and many players need the revenue generated by the stream to support them, teams do not have enough financial support of the sponsors yet to pay them wages of which they can live.
Haha, sorry I misunderstood when you quoted and started with "actually I am not sure", but yeah. :-D
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why not build a name for yourself and not on someone who is famous. i would not want to watch your stream should you become good because of the way you seek fame. enter some lans, speak with the community and wins some tournaments
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It is cheating. If blizzard want that players choose with who they want to play they would just do a queue. Lader is random for a reason. Its just quite sad.
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On November 17 2011 02:53 Grim Hatter wrote:
It is cheating. If blizzard want that players choose with who they want to play they would just do a queue. Lader is random for a reason. Its just quite sad.
That's such a dumb statement. I don't think anyone is even trying to say it's cheating. Maybe "gaming the system" or even "exploiting the system" but it doesn't mean you're actually cheating. All he's doing is deciding to search for matches at certain points in time hoping to get matched with someone in particular. How is that "sad."
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On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote:
lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players.
player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous.
Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
lol are you serious? if sheth is found cheating, sheth looks like an idiot. if hammerstanstein is found cheating, he looks like an idiot. what nobody cares about is who hammerstanstein is in the first place, but he will forever be "that guy who cheated." to argue that somehow hammerstanstein doesn't get shit on by doing that is complete nonsense. look at the people who are known for that sort of thing.
your argument is awful and you're just trying to justify your poor assumptions without having to admit they're dumb, and it might be out of turn but you also seem to be projecting your loose morals on other people, what lengths you would go to for attention if it wasn't given to you by the community willingly.
if i were a random high ranked ladder player i would always snipe good players. playing randoms on ladder is significantly less enjoyable. it's just another tally in your win rate. i'm not good enough for it to match me up with good players in the first place, only reason why i don't. at no point am i ever going to use that to cheat, because that has nothing to do with my goals for it.
your argument kind of reminds me of the DEA trying to convince people that marijuana is a gateway drug to cocaine because if you do one drug, well why not do something a weeeeeeee bit more? stronger drugs feel even better! even though one is completely separate from the other.
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I don't even get this issue? just put damn delay on the stream and it's fixed.
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On November 17 2011 03:03 DaBoxX wrote:
I don't even get this issue? just put damn delay on the stream and it's fixed.
Removes audience interaction which is a big pull for a lot of people.
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On November 17 2011 03:03 Herculix wrote:
your argument kind of reminds me of the DEA trying to convince people that marijuana is a gateway drug to cocaine because if you do one drug, well why not do something a weeeeeeee bit more? stronger drugs feel even better! even though one is completely separate from the other.
It's called the slippery slope fallacy. And the entire sniper = cheater argument is based on it.
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I see people like yourself, Harstem, who stream snipe or stream cheat complete trash in the gaming community. It doesn't matter if you are stream sniping or stream cheating its pathetic and sad because you have an ego to feed.
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I have no idea who this hammertoes guy is. this tread hasn't even taught me his TL name. /yawn
grow up, stop trying to justify what you are doing. you don't see a problem with it? keep it to your damn self cause you know the community looks at you like a cheater.
as far as innocent until proven guilty goes....... that's for criminal offenses people. i swear some of you are so uneducated. you don't have to be proven guilty to win a civil lawsuit and get paid mad loots. There is another court. one that probably matters more than civil or criminal court (in the eyes of the people), that's the court of public opinion. learn about it sometime. and guess what..... you don't need any evidence to be convicted there.
But by all means, continue cheating hammer123. Cause that's what the public opinion of you is even though you only "snipe" for promotional reasons.
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So... you want exposure? Then win tournaments o_o
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I think it's still stupid as hell, and I don't trust snipers enough to not cheat.
If you want quality practice, get your MMR high up enough. If your MMR isn't high enough to be playing these players, you don't really deserve to be playing them anyway, and you're screwing players with better MMR a chance of playing these high level players for better practice and challenge than you would be giving them.
If you don't have the time to get high enough to play these players consistently, that's just a fact of life you have to deal with.
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On November 17 2011 03:03 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 02:53 Grim Hatter wrote:
It is cheating. If blizzard want that players choose with who they want to play they would just do a queue. Lader is random for a reason. Its just quite sad. That's such a dumb statement. I don't think anyone is even trying to say it's cheating. Maybe "gaming the system" or even "exploiting the system" but it doesn't mean you're actually cheating. All he's doing is deciding to search for matches at certain points in time hoping to get matched with someone in particular. How is that "sad."
I didn't mean he is cheating game. I see this as cheating matchmaking system or "exploiting good will of streamers" And as you see there are few people who dont want to be part of it but he still do it to them. That is why is this "sad" but i shouldn't use that word "rude" is better. Such action can discourage streaming because people can see it as annoying or irritating. I hope that explain my statement.
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one more thing this sounds to me like.
"I want to be given something I haven't earned."
Give me promotion, even though I haven't done anything to merit it.
Give me promotion, even though I haven't practiced hard enough/long enough to become a professional player.
Give me promotion, even though I haven't received any recognition other than flames on TL
Give me promotion, even though..........oh crap I'm promoting this hammerblow character..... DAMN HIM and this thread!!!
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EPT
