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On November 16 2011 18:24 ColdLava wrote:Can anyone tell me why stream sniping or even stream cheating is even cared about, especially when it really only pertains to ladder games (that noone gives a rats ass about) that make no money? I'm not trying to defend OP whatsoever but honestly, if you're making money off of streaming your own games and you are getting a fanbase which helps you with sponsorship and what not, you better expect to have people stream cheat vs you, it's just part of the game. This is not a case where both people have something at stake (especially if it's the same stake, like prize money) and someone is map hacking, these are ladder games ffs. Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 18:07 Capped wrote:
Im actually disgusted and feel terribly sorry for this "harstem"
LOL why don't you save those words for someone that actually does something criminally wrong, like theft or murder, or even people that hurt the SC2 community in certain southeast asian countries? Edit: oops, by saying "that make no money," I meant as in, a tournament prize pool. As in, there's nothing to actually play for in the games and whether someone wins or loses really doesn't matter.
The OP is someone who stream snipes so we dont really "care" about it as he brought it up, we do however care enough, to point out that he is wrong to do it and shouldnt expect sympathy, nor use it to gain attention to himself like a little child. Saying "lol u stream so u shud expect it" is stupid, of course. but it doesnt make it fucking right, on those grounds and to quote Totalbiscuit vaguely"Lol i left my car outside, guess u can steal it cos u saw it!"
I dont save those words for people like that, i do not feel disgusted or sorry for those people, I feel hatred and a deep feeling to smash their skulls in. Also the "words" i save for people like that, cannot be said on TL.
I do not hate nor want to smash this guys skull in, but i sure as hell dont like him or what he's set out to achieve. (well, how he set out to do it anyway).
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On November 16 2011 18:21 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 18:12 JustPassingBy wrote:On November 16 2011 18:07 Capped wrote:
If he really wanted to play vs good players to learn, why not join tournaments? Unless you can win them every day/week/month at 100% win rate consistently, you have something to learn from the players. Sorry, but this is definitely not right. It's not as if he's trying to snipe MVP or professionals of such class. Sorry but how is playing vs people who can and do beat you in order to learn, not right? O.o and enough of the pro-bashing, Inc may not be the fabled "top tier" but he's a damn good player and deserves respect for everything he's done for e-sports in general away from his gaming. I also do not think many people in this thread have won a WCG or Top 3 at an MLG (granted, before koreans. Still havent done it.)
No one in this thread has placed Top 3 at an MLG and there's no need for long angry rants and name calling. Take a deep breath.
A dude snipes other dudes and one of them dudes called the dude a cheater and then the dude felt that it was time to publicly adress the sniping situation for us other dudes that listens to the dude that said that the dude cheated. It's quite simple and nothing to get all hot headed about.
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On November 16 2011 07:31 Harstem wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 07:27 Namu wrote:On November 16 2011 07:18 iNcontroL wrote:On November 16 2011 07:09 tree.hugger wrote:On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote:
lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players.
player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous.
Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat. I don't see why you need to be so defensive about it and rush to judgment. Sniping and cheating really are two different things, I get that your experience with some players has caused you to be irritated and cynical about this, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here. Hmm you can call me defensive all you like.. I call it experience. Applying utopian policies and hoping for the best might work in other atmospheres but in SC2 people want a leg up for the most part.. if they have nothing to lose and everything to gain why think they are going to disprove the rule thus far? I agree with incontrol's thoughts.. although stream "sniping" may not be cheating, it makes it so tempting for the sniper to start cheating. You have to accept the doubts & blames if you're going to snipe that you may be cheating. hihi Namu, I accept the doubts if I am sniping, but I can not accept the "this guy is a cheater" while the game hasn't even started yet. Unless there is clear evidence that the guy is cheating I dont see any use of calling him a cheater just because he stream snipes to get some exposure.
it's very naive to think about it that way.
you're using a method that relates to cheating. of course people are way more likely to call you a cheater.
even though sniping and cheating are different things, it's too idealistic to expect the general viewers/players to differentiate the two.
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On November 16 2011 18:30 HK_TPZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 18:25 Alpina wrote:
I don't see why you need proof or something. If you are stream sniping that means you can be stream cheating as well. Does not mean you are stream cheating, but it may be, and streamer does not know for sure, and he can't know for sure, that's why he assumes you may be stream cheating. I don't get what's wrong with that.
comletelly agree with incontrol. am I the only one around here who believes in innocent until proven guilty? In other news, since streamers cannot know whether their opponents stream snipe them or not, I'm afraid I miss the relevance of your pointing out stream snipers could be cheating. In other news, + Show Spoiler +OMG LADDER IS SERIOUS BUSINESS .
Streamer thinks that player is cheating, that's all. Yeah noone knows for sure but why do you need to prove anything, most streamers don't even care.
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It's impossible to tell if someone isn't stream sniping you if your stream has zero delay. So by a lot of you guys opinions, everyone might be stream cheating, so why not call everyone out on it?
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On November 16 2011 18:21 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 18:12 JustPassingBy wrote:On November 16 2011 18:07 Capped wrote:
If he really wanted to play vs good players to learn, why not join tournaments? Unless you can win them every day/week/month at 100% win rate consistently, you have something to learn from the players. Sorry, but this is definitely not right. It's not as if he's trying to snipe MVP or professionals of such class. Sorry but how is playing vs people who can and do beat you in order to learn, not right? O.o and enough of the pro-bashing, Inc may not be the fabled "top tier" but he's a damn good player and deserves respect for everything he's done for e-sports in general away from his gaming. I also do not think many people in this thread have won a WCG or Top 3 at an MLG (granted, before koreans. Still havent done it.)
Nvm. I read your post wrong. Forget what I wrote, sry.
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IF you are going to stream snipe then deal with the negative flak that you will receive. If you dont want to deal with the issue then dont stream snipe. There is no way for you to prove that you were not watching the stream and there is no way for the player to prove that you were cheating. So in the end you need to just deal with it and stop whining.
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On November 16 2011 18:21 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 18:12 JustPassingBy wrote:On November 16 2011 18:07 Capped wrote:
If he really wanted to play vs good players to learn, why not join tournaments? Unless you can win them every day/week/month at 100% win rate consistently, you have something to learn from the players. Sorry, but this is definitely not right. It's not as if he's trying to snipe MVP or professionals of such class. Sorry but how is playing vs people who can and do beat you in order to learn, not right? O.o and enough of the pro-bashing, Inc may not be the fabled "top tier" but he's a damn good player and deserves respect for everything he's done for e-sports in general away from his gaming. I also do not think many people in this thread have won a WCG or Top 3 at an MLG (granted, before koreans. Still havent done it.)
I've kind of had enough of this argument. Eventually when someone is disrespectful enough times it overshadows anything they've done positively. Incontrol can't have infinite get out of jail free cards. Can we please as a community accept that he is blindly passionate and as such says many inappropriate things? Or will we keep being selectively blind?
He doesn't have to be either evil or godly. He can be, and is, somewhere in the ugly grey centre.
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why do people keep saying they are annoyed as he could be playing better players, yet if the guy didnt have a good enough MMR he wouldnt be playing them in the first place.
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yeah i know what u feel bro. like the best of the best dont say anything negative. but i sometimes have bad experience. ill post a little story. i once played on the US server. laddered some games, then i met a guy called something like "spades". i have never heard of this guy in any kind before or after the match.I outplayed him to the very best and he started to flame me that im a streamcheater etc, even tho this guy was a nooname to me. another time i got matched against a protoss player, now i dont even remember the name. after winning him the accused me of streamcheating. i then searched for his stream and let him gladly get the information that me joining his stream almost doubled his viewercount (he had like 50 viewer but well). i just think its sad that the win u deserved can get just talked down that easily :/
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No matter how you put it, stream snipers are often also the most nooby cheesers. They don't do it for all the nice reasons you gave, they do it to piss off people and proxy shit on the map against way better players than them.
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In a game where everything is about scouting and timing, watching a stream would give you a huge advantage. Cant believe you would admit to something like this, also going out with your full name. Honestly players like this should be banned.
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On November 16 2011 20:48 Avean wrote:
In a game where everything is about scouting and timing, watching a stream would give you a huge advantage. Cant believe you would admit to something like this, also going out with your full name. Honestly players like this should be banned.
You cant read, can you? He watches the stream, waits for his "victim" to click "Find match" and then CLOSES the stream and clicks find match hisself, so that he hopefully gets matched against him. Everybody in here agrees that stream CHEATING is stupid, but he is SNIPING. The difference between them is also in the OP, l2read please, thanks 
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On November 16 2011 20:51 Tarotis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 20:48 Avean wrote:
In a game where everything is about scouting and timing, watching a stream would give you a huge advantage. Cant believe you would admit to something like this, also going out with your full name. Honestly players like this should be banned. You cant read, can you? He watches the stream, waits for his "victim" to click "Find match" and then CLOSES the stream and clicks find match hisself, so that he hopefully gets matched against him. Everybody in here agrees that stream CHEATING is stupid, but he is SNIPING. The difference between them is also in the OP, l2read please, thanks
It's somewhat cheating the system anyway, you're not supposed to do that and ladder encounters are supposed to be randomized.
Plus, most sniped players don't want to play the same NA newbie over and over again (and when I say newbie I'm aware that those are grandmasters most likely, but Deezer, really??), you just piss them off and piss off their viewers.
All in all, stream sniping should not be praised like the OP does.
As for stream cheating now... these guys are the lowest scum.
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On November 16 2011 20:51 Tarotis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 20:48 Avean wrote:
In a game where everything is about scouting and timing, watching a stream would give you a huge advantage. Cant believe you would admit to something like this, also going out with your full name. Honestly players like this should be banned. You cant read, can you? He watches the stream, waits for his "victim" to click "Find match" and then CLOSES the stream and clicks find match hisself, so that he hopefully gets matched against him. Everybody in here agrees that stream CHEATING is stupid, but he is SNIPING. The difference between them is also in the OP, l2read please, thanks
How do you know he closes the stream? Because he says so? I have a bridge I'd like to sell you...
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On November 16 2011 21:01 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 20:51 Tarotis wrote:On November 16 2011 20:48 Avean wrote:
In a game where everything is about scouting and timing, watching a stream would give you a huge advantage. Cant believe you would admit to something like this, also going out with your full name. Honestly players like this should be banned. You cant read, can you? He watches the stream, waits for his "victim" to click "Find match" and then CLOSES the stream and clicks find match hisself, so that he hopefully gets matched against him. Everybody in here agrees that stream CHEATING is stupid, but he is SNIPING. The difference between them is also in the OP, l2read please, thanks It's somewhat cheating the system anyway, you're not supposed to do that and ladder encounters are supposed to be randomized. Plus, most sniped players don't want to play the same NA newbie over and over again (and when I say newbie I'm aware that those are grandmasters most likely, but Deezer, really??), you just piss them off and piss off their viewers. All in all, stream sniping should not be praised like the OP does. As for stream cheating now... these guys are the lowest scum.
There is a difference between sniping them once, like Harstem does, to use his time he has available for training as effective as possible and stalking + cheating them, like deezer does. Harstem, the OP, wanted to point out exactly that difference. Prejudice against stream sniper is very similiar to prejudice in real life, it is bad, everybody knows it but doing it anyway (:
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If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
In regards to the OP's situation, he guessed you were stream cheating because you put yourself in a situation where he could reasonably assume that you were doing so. Had you not cried out quite so loudly "Hey iNcontroL! I'm on your stream!" you would have been fine.. though of course, 5k people wouldn't have seen your twitter.
One point I find startling here is how many people in this thread are up in arms about professionalism. I wouldn't call iNcontroL's statements professional, but I wouldn't give him a citation and have him fined or anything either. He called it as he saw it, nothing more. Emotional, yes. Worthy of scrutiny, not really. There are ways you can prevent being perceived in such a fashion if the issue is really so important to you.
Also, about the damage he has done to your potential professional career by calling you out as a stream sniper or cheater.. No offense, but nobody was going to remember you for a one-off incident on iNcontroL's stream, I promise you. That kind of recognition came with a 15 page thread about stream cheating subtleties. If you had been matched against him 6 times in a row and were clearly demonstrating knowledge of the stream.. you are going to come off with a bad image, which is not only your fault, but also a big thing you need to consider when you're trying to go pro. Besides, professionals aren't made through stream sniping, they are made through results at tournaments, which you have already stated you lack the time or means to participate in.
I'm sure everybody understands the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating. It seems to me though that most of the community has a clear grasp on the kind of people known to participate in those sorts of activities, and it is unfortunate that through your demeanor you appeared to be one of them. Stream sniping can be fine to find good competition, but if you overdo it you're going to make a bad name for yourself. Like I said, this doesn't only mean repetitive targeting of the same streamer, but also calling attention to yourself and trying to piggyback on his fame. It isn't necessarily wrong, but it is annoying, and you can expect aggravated remarks if that's how you act.
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^ That was one hell of a solid post.
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On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote:
If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
In regards to the OP's situation, he guessed you were stream cheating because you put yourself in a situation where he could reasonably assume that you were doing so. Had you not cried out quite so loudly "Hey iNcontroL! I'm on your stream!" you would have been fine.. though of course, 5k people wouldn't have seen your twitter.
One point I find startling here is how many people in this thread are up in arms about professionalism. I wouldn't call iNcontroL's statements professional, but I wouldn't give him a citation and have him fined or anything either. He called it as he saw it, nothing more. Emotional, yes. Worthy of scrutiny, not really. There are ways you can prevent being perceived in such a fashion if the issue is really so important to you.
Also, about the damage he has done to your potential professional career by calling you out as a stream sniper or cheater.. No offense, but nobody was going to remember you for a one-off incident on iNcontroL's stream, I promise you. That kind of recognition came with a 15 page thread about stream cheating subtleties. If you had been matched against him 6 times in a row and were clearly demonstrating knowledge of the stream.. you are going to come off with a bad image, which is not only your fault, but also a big thing you need to consider when you're trying to go pro. Besides, professionals aren't made through stream sniping, they are made through results at tournaments, which you have already stated you lack the time or means to participate in.
I'm sure everybody understands the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating. It seems to me though that most of the community has a clear grasp on the kind of people known to participate in those sorts of activities, and it is unfortunate that through your demeanor you appeared to be one of them. Stream sniping can be fine to find good competition, but if you overdo it you're going to make a bad name for yourself. Like I said, this doesn't only mean repetitive targeting of the same streamer, but also calling attention to yourself and trying to piggyback on his fame. It isn't necessarily wrong, but it is annoying, and you can expect aggravated remarks if that's how you act.
It's a shame you only have 1 post. I haven't read something that smart on TL since forever. Welcome aboard and well said
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On November 16 2011 19:20 Spicy_Curry wrote:
IF you are going to stream snipe then deal with the negative flak that you will receive. If you dont want to deal with the issue then dont stream snipe. There is no way for you to prove that you were not watching the stream and there is no way for the player to prove that you were cheating. So in the end you need to just deal with it and stop whining.
I'm sorry, but I have to agree with harsh statements like this. Even though it might suck to get flamed for being a stream cheater when you didn't do anything like that, if you stream snipe you put yourself in the same boat with those people. At one point you just have to decide if it's worth the hassle, nothing more to it.
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EPT
