EDIT: I only snipe streamers once, if I get matched up with streamers multiple times in a row(while laddering) it is not my fault, but the system's Dear TeamLiquid, most of you guys will not know so let me introduce myself: I am Kevin "Harstem" de Koning a young dutch protoss player who likes to stream snipe famous players every now and then.
When the game was released a lot of players started a stream. To get more exposure, get money from commercials, to have fun with the viewers, interact with the community etc. One downside of streaming is the fact that the opponent can easily open your stream and see what you are doing. This is really annoying for the streamers and even though it sometimes is fun to watch it also annoys the viewers. The only way to stop this is by either delaying the stream a few minutes or by turning off the stream.
The reason I made this thread is to show people the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating. As I stated above stream-cheating is really annoying and people who win games by stream-cheating should not deserve any credit whatsoever(in my opinion). Stream sniping on the other hand is something completely different. When a person stream snipes, he tries to match a professional/well known player by watching their stream and try to search at the same time. If the MMR of the player sniping and the proffesional/well known player is the same or close to the same there is a high probability to find the streamer!
Instead of playing versus average joe you are playing versus Incontrol, Idra, Kas, HuK etc. Unfortunately not all streamers can appreciate it and sometimes they even falsely accuse you of stream-cheating. This is the opposite of what you want, because when I stream snipe I do this to get free good publicity while playing versus extremely good players. The feeling of winning while your opponent is having 5000+ viewers is really hard to describe, but it feels damn good.
What I am trying to say is: If someone is stream sniping this doesn't necessarily mean they are stream cheating. Lately I am getting more and more streamers who are saying "don't mind this guy, he is a cheater" without even knowing me. This isn't only putting me in a bad daylight, but it also affects my play. When my opponent tells me "u streamcheat" I scout less, because I know that if I find his proxy pylon or his hidden gate he will be like "See this guy is a cheater, fucking scrub".
I hope people learn to appreciate me and my fellow stream snipers more and stop falsely accusing me and others of cheating when we are not.
Have a nice day,
Kevin "Harstem" de Koning
Don't be to harsh on my english please <3 tyty
I could not word my feelings any better than Uncultured did in his post
On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote: Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
I feel your post is directed to people that have some knowledge about stream sniping / stream cheating. Can you say in a few words what is description of each? Thanks
i've never thought of it in that way, and I'm glad you wrote this. However, while I don't doubt your intentions, I think the main problem is that a lot of stream snipers don't see it that way, and prefer to just harass the pro players, or outright cheat. While I understand how you are not one of them, I hope you can see why people think you are
Hopefully after this case though, it won't be the same. Good luck in your games!
On November 16 2011 06:45 r3z3nd3 wrote: I feel your post is directed to people that have some knowledge about stream sniping / stream cheating. Can you say in a few words what is description of each? Thanks
Seems pretty clear:
Sniping = watching stream of high level player to try and join game at the same time, resulting in playing said high level player (typically someone famous, ex. Huk, Idra, etc.) Once game starts, presumably a stream sniper will close the stream and play as normal.
Cheating = watching the stream of the person you are in-game playing against to gain an advantage and beat them.
On November 16 2011 06:45 Hassybaby wrote: Hey Harstem, ty for the write-up.
i've never thought of it in that way, and I'm glad you wrote this. However, while I don't doubt your intentions, I think the main problem is that a lot of stream snipers don't see it that way, and prefer to just harass the pro players, or outright cheat. While I understand how you are not one of them, I hope you can see why people think you are
Hopefully after this case though, it won't be the same. Good luck in your games!
I think most stream snipers want to get exposure and attention. I for example dont have a good enough computer to stream, i can barely run sc2 on low graphics. This way people still can see me play and I think everybody likes to be in the spotlight and so do I!
The way I see it is people are going to think you are cheating regardless of what your write on the forums or whether you win or lose. I understand you get a rush from playing a well known player on a stream with alot of people watching, but I still say just don't do it. Find another way to get that rush. Join some tournaments and try and win against the well known pros there. That is better publicity anyways.
I just watched the game which led to this post. I will say that the pro you faced did admit after the game that he didn't know if you are a stream cheater, and just accused you of it. Maybe trolling? Who knows. Either way, in the same way that pros accept that streaming inevitably leads to stream cheating, when you stream snipe, don't be surprised when you are accused of cheating. I can imagine that anyone facing you repeatedly would assume the worst.
On November 16 2011 06:45 r3z3nd3 wrote: I feel your post is directed to people that have some knowledge about stream sniping / stream cheating. Can you say in a few words what is description of each? Thanks
Stream-sniping: Searching for a match at the same time as your 'target' trying to get matched up against him. (I actually tried to get matched against Tyler when he was owning EU Diamond league, but it didn't work ^^) Stream-cheating: Watching/listening your 'target's stream while playing against him to get information.
On November 16 2011 06:49 Schwang wrote: The way I see it is people are going to think you are cheating regardless of what your write on the forums or whether you win or lose. I understand you get a rush from playing a well known player on a stream with alot of people watching, but I still say just don't do it. Find another way to get that rush. Join some tournaments and try and win against the well known pros there. That is better publicity anyways.
Hey Schwang, I obviously also try to play in as many tournament as people, but because I am not a fulltime gamer I also have other things I do: Go to school, play soccer, fitness and mixed martial arts. Those tournaments normally take 5/6 hours, so I simply dont have the time to play a lot of tournaments. When I stream snipe I practice vs good opponents and get some exposure.
I don't think there is anyone complaining about stream sniping someone once a day. Doing it several times over and over is not fun for the player streaming. Don't EVER do that.
I can understand where you're coming from but you gotta understand there are far more people sniping and cheesing famous players then just sniping and playing straight up without watching the stream. It's easy to generalise, harder to separate the good from the giant mass of bad
Yes I have sniped beastyqt in the past, but I stopped that maybe 1 month ago. However I still ladder and sometimes get matched against him. That is something he has to deal with, because there is no way in avoiding that!
Yea.. it's very hard to clear a reputation, gl with that.
On November 16 2011 06:45 Hassybaby wrote: Hey Harstem, ty for the write-up.
i've never thought of it in that way, and I'm glad you wrote this. However, while I don't doubt your intentions, I think the main problem is that a lot of stream snipers don't see it that way, and prefer to just harass the pro players, or outright cheat. While I understand how you are not one of them, I hope you can see why people think you are
Hopefully after this case though, it won't be the same. Good luck in your games!
I think most stream snipers want to get exposure and attention. I for example dont have a good enough computer to stream, i can barely run sc2 on low graphics. This way people still can see me play and I think everybody likes to be in the spotlight and so do I!
If you deserve recognition, you'll be noticed. By entering tournaments and placing well, you'll get the recognition you deserve. Its shady for people to try to use someone else's prestige to leech off of.
I was watching Beastyqt's stream and I saw he was annoyed with you stream sniping him, he implied that you've done it multiple times as well. Maybe you should not stream snipe people who you know don't like it. Otherwise I don't really see any problem with it.
the problem is your still gaming the system...while you're not directly cheating against a particular player you are swaying the matchmaking system to give yourself a better chance of playing the player that you want to play....Honestly I could care less but some people I'm sure care
I'm pretty sure this is common knowledge in the community.
You can also look pretty stupid to the community. I was playing IdrA one match and went for a stim timing attack off 2 base composed of MM to hit before he got bane speed or mutas (successful), only to realize that I forgot to tech stim itself, completely.
On November 16 2011 06:52 Willba wrote: I was watching Beastyqt's stream and I saw he was annoyed with you stream sniping him, he implied that you've done it multiple times as well. Maybe you should not stream snipe people who you know don't like it. Otherwise I don't really see any problem with it.
Hi Willba, Yes I have sniped beastyqt in the past, but I stopped that maybe 1 month ago. However I still ladder and sometimes get matched against him. That is something he has to deal with, because there is no way in avoiding that!
On November 16 2011 06:54 FabledIntegral wrote: I'm pretty sure this is common knowledge in the community.
You can also look pretty stupid to the community. I was playing IdrA one match and went for a stim timing attack off 2 base composed of MM to hit before he got bane speed or mutas (successful), only to realize that I forgot to tech stim itself, completely.
I looked like a fucking moron.
Even though this is common knowledge for most of the people in the community it isnt for some people. The reason why I made this thread is because Incontrol falsely accused me of stream-cheating.
On November 16 2011 06:52 Rudo wrote: the problem is your still gaming the system...while you're not directly cheating against a particular player you are swaying the matchmaking system to give yourself a better chance of playing the player that you want to play....Honestly I could care less but some people I'm sure care
And is that even of concern whatsoever? If you could pick your opponent's, as long as the games were legit, would there be a huge issue? It worked fine for the most part with iccup.
[QUOTE]On November 16 2011 06:56 Harstem wrote: [QUOTE]On November 16 2011 06:54 FabledIntegral wrote: I'm pretty sure this is common knowledge in the community.
You can also look pretty stupid to the community. I was playing IdrA one match and went for a stim timing attack off 2 base composed of MM to hit before he got bane speed or mutas (successful), only to realize that I forgot to tech stim itself, completely.
I looked like a fucking moron.[/QUOTE]
Even though this is common knowledge for most of the people in the community it isnt for some people. The reason why I made this thread is because Incontrol falsely accused me of stream-cheating.[QUOTE]
How is that in any way related to your OP? He accused you of stream-cheating when you were stream sniping instead. Your OP just talks about the differences. Incontrol might have been wrong, but there wasn't any miscommunication otherwise. He simply suspected you were stream cheating. Would you still have made this topic if he accused you of map hacking..?
On November 16 2011 06:45 r3z3nd3 wrote: I feel your post is directed to people that have some knowledge about stream sniping / stream cheating. Can you say in a few words what is description of each? Thanks
Seems pretty clear:
Sniping = watching stream of high level player to try and join game at the same time, resulting in playing said high level player (typically someone famous, ex. Huk, Idra, etc.) Once game starts, presumably a stream sniper will close the stream and play as normal.
Cheating = watching the stream of the person you are in-game playing against to gain an advantage and beat them.
Oh, thank you, dangerjoe and OP for the clarification about the issue.
I dont really see the point here, the player being sniped isnt going to know that you arent going to watch the stream during the game. So why do it at all?
And is that even of concern whatsoever? If you could pick your opponent's, as long as the games were legit, would there be a huge issue? It worked fine for the most part with iccup.
The way he is using it isn't really a problem but the same thing could be used to get matched up against someone you beat much more consistently...or even for example pull a combatex and match up against people you know for win trading
The problem is that once you have opened the stream for any reason (even if just to snipe innocently) there's simply no way to know whether you actually close it. It's hard to give the benefit of the doubt when the streamer knows you have opened the stream at all.
And is that even of concern whatsoever? If you could pick your opponent's, as long as the games were legit, would there be a huge issue? It worked fine for the most part with iccup.
The way he is using it isn't really a problem but the same thing could be used to get matched up against someone you beat much more consistently...or even for example pull a combatex and match up against people you know for win trading
If you wanted to win trade you wouldn't need to do it via stream, you'd just contact the person.
On November 16 2011 06:54 FabledIntegral wrote: I'm pretty sure this is common knowledge in the community.
You can also look pretty stupid to the community. I was playing IdrA one match and went for a stim timing attack off 2 base composed of MM to hit before he got bane speed or mutas (successful), only to realize that I forgot to tech stim itself, completely.
I looked like a fucking moron.
Even though this is common knowledge for most of the people in the community it isnt for some people. The reason why I made this thread is because Incontrol falsely accused me of stream-cheating.
and why even bother about what incontrol says and ANYONE to be honest? lol. its simple: if u wanted to cheat u wouldnt even mention to any player u r sniping that u did so. i can also unbderstand that stream sniping is just inches away from stream cheating but i cannot think u r dumb by exposing u r self for confirming stream sniping. Players who loose to you might easily accused u for cheating ...just dont give a damn about them. Serious players WONT accuse you.
Stream sniping is absolutely legit and seems normal to me. Players i wanna meet, players u always dreamed to ''practice'' with...
I think it is really stupid especially when done repeatedly. From a viewers perspective I want to see variety. I could care less about watching you play, I'm there to watch the person streaming play. This is especially true if you suck, or do stupid builds (not saying that you do, but there are others).
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
Couldn't you have used someone other than Sheth in your example? My heart... it aches.
if you black out your stream then you might as well not stream, your streaming to entertain people and watching a black screen is just not entertaining (even if you can understand the streamers motives). Yes a delay does work and I know of a few streamers who do/did this.
lol i dont get this stream sniping shenanigans, just play the game ffs QQ
if u want exposure, get a better computer and stream for your self or play in daily cups and try to win or get far in them...
as a stream watcher i find it annoying to find the same mofo stream snipers/cheaters everytime, gets boring and i don't care about you, but the person who is streaming.
What bothers me is how people streaming somehow think that people shouldn't be allowed to snipe/stream cheat them. Streaming is optional and if you have to do it you have to realize that people might do things like this to you. Don't want it to happen? Simple solution -> don't stream
how stream sniping is NOT considered cheating by some? so it's only half cheating cuz you can cheat more by actually looking at the stream? ladder is supposed to be random... and by making it not random u get an advantage (ofc its not against tos, just like stream cheating). Thats some pathetic shit op has...
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
this!
plus, if I see catz or whoever streamsnipe they do it in good fun! and stream themselves ...
if others do it... it is not hard to assume they would also just look once or twice... just look at deezer and combat ex..
rofl, just play ur game and dont try to get famous on someone else's account..
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
If you don't trust people who stream snipe that is fine by me, but at least try to be fair and not act like you know 100% certain that the person in fact is cheating. More streamers have been giving that attitude more and more lately. It might seem like no big deal for you, but I also am in a team and if the sponsors/manager of that team reads " Hammerstanstein is a cheater" they might kick me out of the team.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
I don't see why you need to be so defensive about it and rush to judgment. Sniping and cheating really are two different things, I get that your experience with some players has caused you to be irritated and cynical about this, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
On November 16 2011 07:06 nYaLa wrote: lol i dont get this stream sniping shenanigans, just play the game ffs QQ
if u want exposure, get a better computer and stream for your self or play in daily cups and try to win or get far in them...
as a stream watcher i find it annoying to find the same mofo stream snipers/cheaters everytime, gets boring and i don't care about you, but the person who is streaming.
Gettting a better computer isn't as easy for everyone.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
So really this is a problem with trust rather than with actual cheating? I think you could maybe get a bit of help from (as you already mentioned him) watching Sheth. I saw him play with Deezer the other day an unlike any other player I've ever seen, Sheth actually was kind to him and chatted friendly with him instead of just saying fuck you and then proceed to play the game. And what happens? Deezer actually doesn't stream cheat (or at least it doesn't seem so at all).
So even though people like this haven't done anything to earn the trust of anybody, maybe we should try to have a bit more faith in them. Everybody has something good to them after all, at least that's my opinion.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
That is ultimately the slippery slope fallacy.
If you watch a replay and there is no evidence that the person was stream cheating, it's silly to assume they were.
I can understand getting annoyed when people use your stream to attention whore. But accusing them of cheating when you have no evidence (and in fact replays can even provide evidence to the contrary) isn't fair to them and just makes you appear sore about a loss.
The thing is though, from the streamers point of view, you are still influencing their ladder practice. If you stream-snipe repeadetly you may also scare of the viewers of said stream. You may very well hurt the game-quality of the stream.
You are forcing the player who you are sniping to play versus you, if he wants it or not. And if the player doesnt like the experience of your game you should not force him to play versus you again and again and again. I don't know, it feels kind of weird.
I do understand that you want to have your shiny moment on stream or the opportunity to play versus a high-level opponent, but if you end up repeadetly stream-sniping á la Deezer/Combat-ex i simply cant give you thumbs up for it.
Maybe think a little more critical about your streamsniping and try to empathize with the streamer.
The thing is though, from the streamers point of view, you are still influencing their ladder practice. If you stream-snipe repeadetly you may also scare of the viewers of said stream. You may very well hurt the game-quality of the stream.
You are forcing the player who you are sniping to play versus you, if he wants it or not. And if the player doesnt like the experience of your game you should not force him to play versus you again and again and again. I don't know, it feels kind of weird.
I do understand that you want to have your shiny moment on stream or the opportunity to play versus a high-level opponent, but if you end up repeadetly stream-sniping á la Deezer/Combat-ex i simply cant give you thumbs up for it.
Maybe think a little more critical about your streamsniping and try to empathize with the streamer.
Hi Luvy,
I never snipe players more than once except if they ask for more games! What combatex is known for is not streamsniping, but streamcheating. As I tried to explain in the OP there is quite a difference between those 2.
The thing is though, from the streamers point of view, you are still influencing their ladder practice. If you stream-snipe repeadetly you may also scare of the viewers of said stream. You may very well hurt the game-quality of the stream.
You are forcing the player who you are sniping to play versus you, if he wants it or not. And if the player doesnt like the experience of your game you should not force him to play versus you again and again and again. I don't know, it feels kind of weird.
I do understand that you want to have your shiny moment on stream or the opportunity to play versus a high-level opponent, but if you end up repeadetly stream-sniping á la Deezer/Combat-ex i simply cant give you thumbs up for it.
Maybe think a little more critical about your streamsniping and try to empathize with the streamer.
This is actually quite true. But if you maybe swapped a bit between different players, that wouldn't really be a problem. A lot of the time there are maybe 5 pros streaming from the same server and i guess (though I don't have a clue honestly) that you don't get matched with the player you want that often. Put together these to things and maybe 1 out of 10-20 games would be against the same player.
Put yourself in the shoes of your opponent. If someone makes it obvious that they intentionally are trying to snipe you then you know that at some point they had the stream open, would you trust a stranger to be admirable and shut off the stream? There are scenarios in which there is no cheating going on but the possibility of you cheating ruins any publicity you receive. Try other ways to receive attention and publicity.
the best cheaters are those who can disguise them selveswell. i don't care if you stream snipe or not. it does not make your opponent feel good while playing which is bad.
And if there is one thing you learn from administrating a public server is that is someone is suspicious, they are cheaters 99,9% if you follow what they are doing.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
I don't see why you need to be so defensive about it and rush to judgment. Sniping and cheating really are two different things, I get that your experience with some players has caused you to be irritated and cynical about this, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
Hmm you can call me defensive all you like.. I call it experience. Applying utopian policies and hoping for the best might work in other atmospheres but in SC2 people want a leg up for the most part.. if they have nothing to lose and everything to gain why think they are going to disprove the rule thus far?
The thing is though, from the streamers point of view, you are still influencing their ladder practice. If you stream-snipe repeadetly you may also scare of the viewers of said stream. You may very well hurt the game-quality of the stream.
You are forcing the player who you are sniping to play versus you, if he wants it or not. And if the player doesnt like the experience of your game you should not force him to play versus you again and again and again. I don't know, it feels kind of weird.
I do understand that you want to have your shiny moment on stream or the opportunity to play versus a high-level opponent, but if you end up repeadetly stream-sniping á la Deezer/Combat-ex i simply cant give you thumbs up for it.
Maybe think a little more critical about your streamsniping and try to empathize with the streamer.
this guy has it right, some people stream because it adds fun to grinding ladder, when they have to repeatedly play you because you decide so what can they do. People use streams for revenue, sure its not against the rules to stream snipe or stream cheat for that matter, id like to see the rule that says said streamer cant accuse you of cheating. Don't like it? Dont stream snipe, no doubt stream sniping benefits you less than streaming does the streamer.
The only well known streamer that I can snipe is Orb and he banned me from his stream after he assumed I stream cheat. All I did was queue up against him then mute stream. I only have 1 monitor so alt tabbing would be practically useless based on the speed of the game and everything to do.
I guess its better not to tell anyone that you know of their stream or they will quickly assume you are cheating.
On November 16 2011 07:17 Ulquiorra wrote: Put yourself in the shoes of your opponent. If someone makes it obvious that they intentionally are trying to snipe you then you know that at some point they had the stream open, would you trust a stranger to be admirable and shut off the stream? There are scenarios in which there is no cheating going on but the possibility of you cheating ruins any publicity you receive. Try other ways to receive attention and publicity.
Hi Ulquiorra, I completely understand that there is some kind of distrust towards people who stream snipe, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
That is ultimately the slippery slope fallacy.
If you watch a replay and there is no evidence that the person was stream cheating, it's silly to assume they were.
I can understand getting annoyed when people use your stream to attention whore. But accusing them of cheating when you have no evidence (and in fact replays can even provide evidence to the contrary) isn't fair to them and just makes you appear sore about a loss.
Eh? I won the game the OP is referring to. If someone spams me with their twitter (like he did) and goes "sup everybody!" and then proceeds to get defensive about me saying "stream cheating is lame" I don't know what to tell you... your faith in humanity is awesome, I don't share it.
When I stream I expect to get cheated against so it isn't the biggest deal. But it's hilarious to have people running around going "you have no proof! just sit there and bite the bullet until you have proof!"
What? Nah, if the guy is obsessed with getting his name out there he will cheat to do it more often than not. You can ignore my perspective if you like but I am one of the biggest streamers around and I am saying this from experience.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
I don't see why you need to be so defensive about it and rush to judgment. Sniping and cheating really are two different things, I get that your experience with some players has caused you to be irritated and cynical about this, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
true, yet sniping for sometimes is sketchy...
just like a guy hanging out at a kids playground for no reason.. hes not yet a pedophile but it is sketchy... or a guy walking the street , pointing a loaded gun at people, not a murderer yet, but sketchy...
im not saying streamnipers are like murderers or pedophiles , only that if you act in certain way, you have to accept the associations that come with your behavior...
just like if u hang around the playground for no good reason, people will start talking about you.. although you havnt done anything wrong (yet)...
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
I don't see why you need to be so defensive about it and rush to judgment. Sniping and cheating really are two different things, I get that your experience with some players has caused you to be irritated and cynical about this, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
Hmm you can call me defensive all you like.. I call it experience. Applying utopian policies and hoping for the best might work in other atmospheres but in SC2 people want a leg up for the most part.. if they have nothing to lose and everything to gain why think they are going to disprove the rule thus far?
Just to be nice? It's ladder, what does it cost you to give people the benefit of the doubt?
On November 16 2011 07:17 Ulquiorra wrote: Put yourself in the shoes of your opponent. If someone makes it obvious that they intentionally are trying to snipe you then you know that at some point they had the stream open, would you trust a stranger to be admirable and shut off the stream? There are scenarios in which there is no cheating going on but the possibility of you cheating ruins any publicity you receive. Try other ways to receive attention and publicity.
Hi Ulquiorra, I completely understand that there is some kind of distrust towards people who stream snipe, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
So people stream for many reasons, revenue, fun, publicity.
You stream snipe (abusing the way ladder should work but technically not breaking any rules) for whatever reasons benefit you despite the negative effect on the streamer.
They call you out for cheating thus hopefully sabotaging any gains from your sniping and possible cheating. fair no?>
Hmm if steam sniping is for exposure sake don't you think its kind of redundant? The people you are exposed to aren't gonna think you won by skill and label you a cheater. Think about it, regardless of how you try and spin it, if you snipe, and like InControl said, its easy to go that extra step and cheat, and I'm SURE that most do. If you play the game, and your good enough that you can beat pros without cheating, recognition will come naturally... I wouldn't try and force it just play dailies, climb the ladder, and the rest will come... xD
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
That is ultimately the slippery slope fallacy.
If you watch a replay and there is no evidence that the person was stream cheating, it's silly to assume they were.
I can understand getting annoyed when people use your stream to attention whore. But accusing them of cheating when you have no evidence (and in fact replays can even provide evidence to the contrary) isn't fair to them and just makes you appear sore about a loss.
Eh? I won the game the OP is referring to. If someone spams me with their twitter (like he did) and goes "sup everybody!" and then proceeds to get defensive about me saying "stream cheating is lame" I don't know what to tell you... your faith in humanity is awesome, I don't share it.
When I stream I expect to get cheated against so it isn't the biggest deal. But it's hilarious to have people running around going "you have no proof! just sit there and bite the bullet until you have proof!"
What? Nah, if the guy is obsessed with getting his name out there he will cheat to do it more often than not. You can ignore my perspective if you like but I am one of the biggest streamers around and I am saying this from experience.
Your experience certainly trumps mine, I won't deny that. I just think that replays provide enough evidence that we don't need to assume people are cheating or not. We can watch replays and pretty conclusively determine whether or not they are.
And I'm not really referring to any specific game. I'm really only calling you out on a logical fallacy.
Edit: And I do often see streamers accuse their opponents of stream cheating when they lose. I don't think I've ever seen you do it on your stream though.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
I disagree completely.
You could just as well NOT stream snipe and stream cheat anyways, by quickly loading up the stream during the loading screen, and no one would know, correct? Stream sniping shouldn't be factored into the equation whatsoever, imo, as it's not like you're pushing the limits of doing something unethical.
Hey Harstem, nice OP! I can understand where you're coming from. It's annoying to be called a cheater in any context. Even more when you're called a cheater by some of the great players in the community that you respect.
In my opinion it's not fair to call people cheaters without any proof. I've seen it happen in the past where someone got called a cheater for having a lucky scout find a proxy, or for simply outplaying his opponent.
I hope you'll be able to get a new computer and start streaming yourself soon :-)
I can understand a high masters players wanting to play a game on the ladder against an idol. So they stream snipe. That's fine by most people I think... No problem so far. The problem comes when you do it repeatedly and disrupt their ladder practice they were trying to share with their fans. And in some cases, like Destiny's, you're disrupting serious income flow. I think in the future when eSports explodes, streaming ladder live will be less of a likelihood. There will be far more viewers and far more people able to stream snipe(read: in master league). A delay will probably become the norm. That's kind of sad as interacting live with fans is something a lot of pros and fans enjoy.
On November 16 2011 07:17 Ulquiorra wrote: Put yourself in the shoes of your opponent. If someone makes it obvious that they intentionally are trying to snipe you then you know that at some point they had the stream open, would you trust a stranger to be admirable and shut off the stream? There are scenarios in which there is no cheating going on but the possibility of you cheating ruins any publicity you receive. Try other ways to receive attention and publicity.
Hi Ulquiorra, I completely understand that there is some kind of distrust towards people who stream snipe, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
So people stream for many reasons, revenue, fun, publicity.
You stream snipe (abusing the way ladder should work but technically not breaking any rules) for whatever reasons benefit you despite the negative effect on the streamer.
They call you out for cheating thus hopefully sabotaging any gains from your sniping and possible cheating. fair no?>
Can you name one negative effect for the streamer if the sniper only snipes once (like harstem does)?
So here's my conclusion: Basically this is about whether you come from socialist, trustfull Scandinavia, Netherlands, or whatever, or if you come from liberal; "trust only yourself" America
On November 16 2011 07:24 Hoodlum wrote: Hmm if steam sniping is for exposure sake don't you think its kind of redundant? The people you are exposed to aren't gonna think you won by skill and label you a cheater. Think about it, regardless of how you try and spin it, if you snipe, and like InControl said, its easy to go that extra step and cheat, and I'm SURE that most do. If you play the game, and your good enough that you can beat pros without cheating, recognition will come naturally... I wouldn't try and force it just play dailies, climb the ladder, and the rest will come... xD
Hihi Hoodlum, the part i highlighted bothers me the most. I obviously also try to get exposure the normal way, by climbing the ladder etc, but I feel like streamers get so much attention and really get their name out there. Sadly I am unable to stream, because my computer is not good enough for this. That is the reason I stream. And not everbody who is nice to children is a pedophile!
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
I don't see why you need to be so defensive about it and rush to judgment. Sniping and cheating really are two different things, I get that your experience with some players has caused you to be irritated and cynical about this, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
Hmm you can call me defensive all you like.. I call it experience. Applying utopian policies and hoping for the best might work in other atmospheres but in SC2 people want a leg up for the most part.. if they have nothing to lose and everything to gain why think they are going to disprove the rule thus far?
I agree with incontrol's thoughts.. although stream "sniping" may not be cheating, it makes it so tempting for the sniper to start cheating. You have to accept the doubts & blames if you're going to snipe that you may be cheating.
On November 16 2011 07:24 Hoodlum wrote: Hmm if steam sniping is for exposure sake don't you think its kind of redundant? The people you are exposed to aren't gonna think you won by skill and label you a cheater. Think about it, regardless of how you try and spin it, if you snipe, and like InControl said, its easy to go that extra step and cheat, and I'm SURE that most do. If you play the game, and your good enough that you can beat pros without cheating, recognition will come naturally... I wouldn't try and force it just play dailies, climb the ladder, and the rest will come... xD
Not really, people see your name. I went 3-0 vs Drewbie once and checked out his stream chat at the end of the second game, and people were saying shit like "who the fuck is this zerg" etc. I'm still completely unknown, but it does get a few more people to hear about you if you perform well.
I wasn't stream sniping, we just got repeatedly matched up.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
I don't see why you need to be so defensive about it and rush to judgment. Sniping and cheating really are two different things, I get that your experience with some players has caused you to be irritated and cynical about this, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
Hmm you can call me defensive all you like.. I call it experience. Applying utopian policies and hoping for the best might work in other atmospheres but in SC2 people want a leg up for the most part.. if they have nothing to lose and everything to gain why think they are going to disprove the rule thus far?
I agree with incontrol's thoughts.. although stream "sniping" may not be cheating, it makes it so tempting for the sniper to start cheating. You have to accept the doubts & blames if you're going to snipe that you may be cheating.
hihi Namu, I accept the doubts if I am sniping, but I can not accept the "this guy is a cheater" while the game hasn't even started yet. Unless there is clear evidence that the guy is cheating I dont see any use of calling him a cheater just because he stream snipes to get some exposure.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
So really this is a problem with trust rather than with actual cheating? I think you could maybe get a bit of help from (as you already mentioned him) watching Sheth. I saw him play with Deezer the other day an unlike any other player I've ever seen, Sheth actually was kind to him and chatted friendly with him instead of just saying fuck you and then proceed to play the game. And what happens? Deezer actually doesn't stream cheat (or at least it doesn't seem so at all).
So even though people like this haven't done anything to earn the trust of anybody, maybe we should try to have a bit more faith in them. Everybody has something good to them after all, at least that's my opinion.
"Deezer actually doesn't stream cheat (or at least it doesn't seem so at all)."
Sigh I really really really want to be an a**ho** here. But I am going to bite my tongue. Please never ever ever try to defend scum of the planet like deezer ever again. Once a piece of sh** always a piece of sh**. Deezer is probably one of the biggest hackers well known in NA and stream cheaters. If you ever played Wc3 on US East, you would know a player named Manubot who had multiple accounts banned for hacking and cheating non stop. As matter a fact Manu is Deezer's name and Deezer's wc3 name was manubot........ omg!. Okay now I have to go smash my head into the wall repeatedly because I just read you defending deezer.
Stream sniping one game isnt a problem really but repeatedly people on the popular players stream will dislike the sniper. just get better and a name if you wanna be popular for a good reason instead of that annoying guy on ____'s stream
On November 16 2011 07:17 Ulquiorra wrote: Put yourself in the shoes of your opponent. If someone makes it obvious that they intentionally are trying to snipe you then you know that at some point they had the stream open, would you trust a stranger to be admirable and shut off the stream? There are scenarios in which there is no cheating going on but the possibility of you cheating ruins any publicity you receive. Try other ways to receive attention and publicity.
Hi Ulquiorra, I completely understand that there is some kind of distrust towards people who stream snipe, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
So people stream for many reasons, revenue, fun, publicity.
You stream snipe (abusing the way ladder should work but technically not breaking any rules) for whatever reasons benefit you despite the negative effect on the streamer.
They call you out for cheating thus hopefully sabotaging any gains from your sniping and possible cheating. fair no?>
Can you name one negative effect for the streamer if the sniper only snipes once (like harstem does)?
First, i dont see where it says he only does this once, wouldnt mind you showing me.
Second, hes obviously doing it to get the ladder to pair him UP, last time i checked getting paired DOWN doesnt usually make for good practice. If it happens naturally obviously thats the ladders fault, but stream sniping attempts to bypass that.
On November 16 2011 07:27 Harstem wrote:Sadly I am unable to stream, because my computer is not good enough for this. That is the reason I stream.
wait, what ?
ontopic: sniping is dumb, dont do it. climb the ladder, place high in those daily cups, that's the best way to get your name known imo. or you'll always be labeled as streamcheater (even if you dont actually streamcheat).
On November 16 2011 07:17 Ulquiorra wrote: Put yourself in the shoes of your opponent. If someone makes it obvious that they intentionally are trying to snipe you then you know that at some point they had the stream open, would you trust a stranger to be admirable and shut off the stream? There are scenarios in which there is no cheating going on but the possibility of you cheating ruins any publicity you receive. Try other ways to receive attention and publicity.
Hi Ulquiorra, I completely understand that there is some kind of distrust towards people who stream snipe, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
So people stream for many reasons, revenue, fun, publicity.
You stream snipe (abusing the way ladder should work but technically not breaking any rules) for whatever reasons benefit you despite the negative effect on the streamer.
They call you out for cheating thus hopefully sabotaging any gains from your sniping and possible cheating. fair no?>
Can you name one negative effect for the streamer if the sniper only snipes once (like harstem does)?
First, i dont see where it says he only does this once, wouldnt mind you showing me.
Second, hes obviously doing it to get the ladder to pair him UP, last time i checked getting paired DOWN doesnt usually make for good practice. If it happens naturally obviously thats the ladders fault, but stream sniping attempts to bypass that.
For stream sniping to work they still have to have similar MMR's...if the ladder is putting them together then they are at least of comparable skill AND the ladder thinks that the sniper at least has a chance to win. It could be pairing down.
While I don't see a big problem in stream sniping as such I agree witch incontrol's point. It is just such a small step and obviously a lot of people are ok to take it. You don't even have to watch at the stream, maybe you just want to listen to the pro, if he is commentating which immediately gives you information you shouldn't have. (Not just what he says, but also what game sounds you might pick up.)
Also if the pro is not streaming for the training, but to provide entertainment, stream sniping is detrimental since he plays against against one player overly often, which is less fun than watching play against multiple opponents.
Further I think I agree with what someone said on page one, which was that it is sort of leeching on the reputation of the pro. If you want fame you should work for it and not just play okay-ish and search for games while someone way popular is streaming. (Though I am not so sure about this.. I guess most viewers would take over the frustration the pro most likely expresses if he gets matched with the same player over and over.. well I guess only no publicity is bad publicity in the end)
All in all I don't think stream sniping alone is that bad (provided once the sniper gets matched with the streamer he really does not look / listen at / to the stream), though I would prefer people not to do it and just play as it was meant to be.
On November 16 2011 07:17 Ulquiorra wrote: Put yourself in the shoes of your opponent. If someone makes it obvious that they intentionally are trying to snipe you then you know that at some point they had the stream open, would you trust a stranger to be admirable and shut off the stream? There are scenarios in which there is no cheating going on but the possibility of you cheating ruins any publicity you receive. Try other ways to receive attention and publicity.
Hi Ulquiorra, I completely understand that there is some kind of distrust towards people who stream snipe, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
So people stream for many reasons, revenue, fun, publicity.
You stream snipe (abusing the way ladder should work but technically not breaking any rules) for whatever reasons benefit you despite the negative effect on the streamer.
They call you out for cheating thus hopefully sabotaging any gains from your sniping and possible cheating. fair no?>
Can you name one negative effect for the streamer if the sniper only snipes once (like harstem does)?
First, i dont see where it says he only does this once, wouldnt mind you showing me.
Second, hes obviously doing it to get the ladder to pair him UP, last time i checked getting paired DOWN doesnt usually make for good practice. If it happens naturally obviously thats the ladders fault, but stream sniping attempts to bypass that.
Dear Echo,
I said somewhere @ page 2/3 that I only snipe once, sometimes i just get matched up with people multiple times in a row, but that is not my fault! I don't really get what you are talking about with the pairing up stuff. I am rank 50ish grandmaster and I am evenly matched against everyone in gm(except for huk and thorzain maybe).
Incontrol is a liar, how can he be one of the biggest streamers around when i never see him stream often anymore QQ :-( .
But seriously, the "sniping" isnt really a problem - although pretty stupid imo. But how can you trust someone who has said persons stream open to close it and not look / listen (some players document their play as it happens, explaining their thought process.)
I feel while the OP is right, but he shouldnt really be surprised at the suspicion of the people he snipes. Especially if you tell the guy "hey i watchin ur stream and queued so i cud play u HERP DERP!!" or spam someones twitter? as Inc said the OP did.
On November 16 2011 07:24 Hoodlum wrote: Hmm if steam sniping is for exposure sake don't you think its kind of redundant? The people you are exposed to aren't gonna think you won by skill and label you a cheater. Think about it, regardless of how you try and spin it, if you snipe, and like InControl said, its easy to go that extra step and cheat, and I'm SURE that most do. If you play the game, and your good enough that you can beat pros without cheating, recognition will come naturally... I wouldn't try and force it just play dailies, climb the ladder, and the rest will come... xD
Hihi Hoodlum, the part i highlighted bothers me the most. I obviously also try to get exposure the normal way, by climbing the ladder etc, but I feel like streamers get so much attention and really get their name out there. Sadly I am unable to stream, because my computer is not good enough for this. That is the reason I stream. And not everbody who is nice to children is a pedophile!
I could be wrong but I believe you misunderstand me. I fully understand your reasoning, what I'm getting at is that even though you are getting exposure... Inadvertently your getting bad exposure because the people that seen you win are gonna believe you cheated if the player (for example InControl) calls you a cheater.
So all in all its just bad exposure and if your a good player I don't think you deserve this bad exposure but its gonna happen regardless. You don't have to stream to get your name out there. Personally I look out for players I've never heard of on the gm list and like to see if they go anywhere and most of these players don't stream.
Also if you start winning dailies your gonna get your games streamed by people who have better computers than yourself and will give you the exposure that you have earned.
First, i dont see where it says he only does this once, wouldnt mind you showing me.
Second, hes obviously doing it to get the ladder to pair him UP, last time i checked getting paired DOWN doesnt usually make for good practice. If it happens naturally obviously thats the ladders fault, but stream sniping attempts to bypass that.
I never snipe players more than once except if they ask for more games! What combatex is known for is not streamsniping, but streamcheating. As I tried to explain in the OP there is quite a difference between those 2.
+ the fact that they have similiar MMR as the system matches them
On November 16 2011 07:35 Capped wrote: Incontrol is a liar, how can he be one of the biggest streamers around when i never see him stream often anymore QQ :-( .
His stream was on for a long time time today. You could actually watch him type out his post. He's been travelling a ton recently so he hasn't had the chance to stream much.
On November 16 2011 07:35 Capped wrote: Incontrol is a liar, how can he be one of the biggest streamers around when i never see him stream often anymore QQ :-( .
But seriously, the "sniping" isnt really a problem - although pretty stupid imo. But how can you trust someone who has said persons stream open to close it and not look / listen (some players document their play as it happens, explaining their thought process.)
I feel while the OP is right, but he shouldnt really be surprised at the suspicion of the people he snipes. Especially if you tell the guy "hey i watchin ur stream and queued so i cud play u HERP DERP!!" or spam someones twitter? as Inc said the OP did.
hihi capped, this is completely irrelevant to this thread. pls no incontrol/me bashing, I rather have a nice discussion.
So you want recognition as SC2 player, but you dont have time to do it the hard way because you have to go to the gym,martials arts,watch TV, blah blah....
So the solution is stream snipe?. So you think its ok if everybody does it?, you think it will be ok to watch 3 hours of Incontrol stream with the same 3 opponents over and over again (deez,combat,you)?
I am sorry, but the ones like you will only be remembered like those slutty girls that charlie sheen bangs.
Stream sniping is cheating because it is a way for you to circumvent the matchmaking system. Even though streamers are letting your see when they click the find match button, by watching their stream and clicking it at the same time you are exploiting the system to get matched up against them when you should not. Cheating of this kind ruins the ladder experience for players since they are forced to play people they would normally not play (often of lower skill level). Stream snipers should be banned and it is in the best interest of Blizzard to do so in order to motive players to use the ladder as a practice tool.
If you want to play games against top players why don't you ask to custom with them? If they won't, why don't you just play on ladder until your MMR is high enough to get matched against them.
What makes you think you are better than the other people on ladder that are legitimately getting cued against these players?
On November 16 2011 07:40 insanet wrote: So you want recognition as SC2 player, but you dont have time to do it the hard way because you have to go to the gym,martials arts,watch TV, blah blah....
So the solution is stream snipe?. So you think its ok if everybody does it?, you think it will be ok to watch 3 hours of Incontrol stream with the same 3 opponents over and over again (deez,combat,you)?
I am sorry, but the ones like you will only be remembered like those slutty girls that charlie sheen bangs.
On November 16 2011 07:40 insanet wrote: So you want recognition as SC2 player, but you dont have time to do it the hard way because you have to go to the gym,martials arts,watch TV, blah blah....
So the solution is stream snipe?. So you think its ok if everybody does it?, you think it will be ok to watch 3 hours of Incontrol stream with the same 3 opponents over and over again (deez,combat,you)?
I am sorry, but the ones like you will only be remembered like those slutty girls that charlie sheen bangs.
Hi insanet, I stated a few times before in this thread that I only snipe streamers once!
On November 16 2011 07:41 DrDoom wrote: Stream sniping is cheating because it is a way for you to circumvent the matchmaking system. Even though streamers are letting your see when they click the find match button, by watching their stream and clicking it at the same time you are exploiting the system to get matched up against them when you should not. Cheating of this kind ruins the ladder experience for players since they are forced to play people they would normally not play (often of lower skill level). Stream snipers should be banned and it is in the best interest of Blizzard to do so in order to motive players to use the ladder as a practice tool.
If you want to play games against top players why don't you ask to custom with them? If they won't, why don't you just play on ladder until your MMR is high enough to get matched against them.
What makes you think you are better than the other people on ladder that are legitimately getting cued against these players?
You do realize that the matchmaking system only lets them play if they actually have the same/similiar MMR? Harstem is a top 100 gm player, he has the MMR to get matched against them without sniping, too.
On November 16 2011 07:41 DrDoom wrote: Stream sniping is cheating because it is a way for you to circumvent the matchmaking system. Even though streamers are letting your see when they click the find match button, by watching their stream and clicking it at the same time you are exploiting the system to get matched up against them when you should not. Cheating of this kind ruins the ladder experience for players since they are forced to play people they would normally not play (often of lower skill level). Stream snipers should be banned and it is in the best interest of Blizzard to do so in order to motive players to use the ladder as a practice tool.
If you want to play games against top players why don't you ask to custom with them? If they won't, why don't you just play on ladder until your MMR is high enough to get matched against them.
What makes you think you are better than the other people on ladder that are legitimately getting cued against these players?
Hi sir, I am legitimately getting cued against these players, there is no way that really low level players get matched against high-tier players. I am gm on EU and I just enjoy playing vs good players for practice/getting some exposure. I do not see how this is in any way cheating.
On November 16 2011 07:17 Ulquiorra wrote: Put yourself in the shoes of your opponent. If someone makes it obvious that they intentionally are trying to snipe you then you know that at some point they had the stream open, would you trust a stranger to be admirable and shut off the stream? There are scenarios in which there is no cheating going on but the possibility of you cheating ruins any publicity you receive. Try other ways to receive attention and publicity.
Hi Ulquiorra, I completely understand that there is some kind of distrust towards people who stream snipe, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
So people stream for many reasons, revenue, fun, publicity.
You stream snipe (abusing the way ladder should work but technically not breaking any rules) for whatever reasons benefit you despite the negative effect on the streamer.
They call you out for cheating thus hopefully sabotaging any gains from your sniping and possible cheating. fair no?>
Can you name one negative effect for the streamer if the sniper only snipes once (like harstem does)?
First, i dont see where it says he only does this once, wouldnt mind you showing me.
Second, hes obviously doing it to get the ladder to pair him UP, last time i checked getting paired DOWN doesnt usually make for good practice. If it happens naturally obviously thats the ladders fault, but stream sniping attempts to bypass that.
For stream sniping to work they still have to have similar MMR's...if the ladder is putting them together then they are at least of comparable skill AND the ladder thinks that the sniper at least has a chance to win. It could be pairing down.
Its likely to be pairing the streamer down, if you where good enough its unlikely yould be stream sniping pros worse than you.
And the bottom line is, you are trying to side-step the matchmaking system, which as said before previously isnt technically against TOS.
however most stream snipers / stream cheaters / promoters of either seem to have decided, if the streamer doesnt want to be sniped / cheated against then dont stream.
Well alot of the time (incontrols case) this costs him money, so i feel like streamers should do the only thing they can to stop snipers/cheaters without negatively effecting themselves.
Unfortunately for you that means calling you out as a cheater,in hopes that either youll stop, or turn into another deezer thus gaining nothing for your actions that are technically not wrong.
On November 16 2011 07:41 DrDoom wrote: Stream sniping is cheating because it is a way for you to circumvent the matchmaking system. Even though streamers are letting your see when they click the find match button, by watching their stream and clicking it at the same time you are exploiting the system to get matched up against them when you should not. Cheating of this kind ruins the ladder experience for players since they are forced to play people they would normally not play (often of lower skill level). Stream snipers should be banned and it is in the best interest of Blizzard to do so in order to motive players to use the ladder as a practice tool.
If you want to play games against top players why don't you ask to custom with them? If they won't, why don't you just play on ladder until your MMR is high enough to get matched against them.
What makes you think you are better than the other people on ladder that are legitimately getting cued against these players?
You do realize that the matchmakin system only lets them play if they actually have the same/similiar MMR? Harstem is a top 100 gm player, he has the MMR to get matched against them without sniping, too.
Circumventing the system is still cheating. If you have the same MMR you should get matched against these players by being online at the same time. By stream sniping you are selfishly taking games away from other deserving players. Recognition will come from showing you're a good player, not from showing the community you're a cheater.
On November 16 2011 07:40 insanet wrote: So you want recognition as SC2 player, but you dont have time to do it the hard way because you have to go to the gym,martials arts,watch TV, blah blah....
So the solution is stream snipe?. So you think its ok if everybody does it?, you think it will be ok to watch 3 hours of Incontrol stream with the same 3 opponents over and over again (deez,combat,you)?
I am sorry, but the ones like you will only be remembered like those slutty girls that charlie sheen bangs.
A ha ha. Man you took the words out of my mouth! In my personal opinion the things this guy does are pitiful. Stream sniping is like being an attention whore, u know doing things the easy, fast = cheap way. If you are good enough of a player, then go to a tournament, and beat a pro. But stream sniping is like stealing and trying to make it relevant in some kind or form is just embarrassing. But that is just my opinion.
I think if you stream snipe, you can expect the person you snipe to believe you are cheating along with it--regardless of whether you are or not. If you don't want to be accused of cheating, don't snipe.
On November 16 2011 07:47 pStar wrote: You are a deezer,
You ruin the players fun. You ruin the spectators fun. You ruin the players practice.
Please stop it. And learn to empathize with people instead of being immature
wtf are you talking about. Where the hell is the fun ruined for either the player or spectator, especially if they don't even know? How does this diminish the practice? If they're being matched, they're of similar MMR, no? Thus he should be adequate practice for ladder.
On November 16 2011 07:41 DrDoom wrote: Stream sniping is cheating because it is a way for you to circumvent the matchmaking system. Even though streamers are letting your see when they click the find match button, by watching their stream and clicking it at the same time you are exploiting the system to get matched up against them when you should not. Cheating of this kind ruins the ladder experience for players since they are forced to play people they would normally not play (often of lower skill level). Stream snipers should be banned and it is in the best interest of Blizzard to do so in order to motive players to use the ladder as a practice tool.
If you want to play games against top players why don't you ask to custom with them? If they won't, why don't you just play on ladder until your MMR is high enough to get matched against them.
What makes you think you are better than the other people on ladder that are legitimately getting cued against these players?
Blizzard isn't going to ban people from watching a stream. Its wrong of course but its the players choice to stream and they expose themselves to cheaters. With the good comes the bad. Also as someone pointed out... they can't play the person if they didn't have similiar MMR. That would seem to be common sense.
With that being said, I don't think you should be doing this.
imo there is nothing wrong with stream sniping if i was a high master/low GM i would love to play against whitera/stephano/tlo or any decent player just to see how well i did against them
but when you do it to BM them, cheese/allin, or just cheat by watching the stream, thats disgraceful
I always wonder why streamers don't use a time delay or something, to prevent the impact of stream cheating. 1 minute may not be enough, but 5 minutes may be too much to make chatting about a game with fans work. There's probably a sweet spot somewhere. Or black out the minimap?
InControl is 100% right here. Starcraft 2 is a war game, and the smartest way to win a war is to cheat.
On November 16 2011 07:48 Zeddicus wrote: I think if you stream snipe, you can expect the person you snipe to believe you are cheating along with it--regardless of whether you are or not. If you don't want to be accused of cheating, don't snipe.
This seems to be what people think, but I think it's a bit odd as there is nothing wrong with some sniping. I think it is strange that people directly think your are cheating when u snipe. But that is my opinion ofcourse. With this thread I just wanted to make clear that not everybody who streamsnipes is like combat ex.
May i then ask for your motivation behind streamsniping and twitterspamming? Other than getting attention you could never get through your skill or tournament results eventhough you are top 200 gm? because if that is the case i will stop writing in this thread as it is just hogging more attention to yourself...........
People on my friend's list do the same shit, especially from my school, when they see me initiating a matchmaking search. Are they doing anything wrong, hoping to get matched with me? Polar has done it all the time.
On November 16 2011 07:41 DrDoom wrote: Stream sniping is cheating because it is a way for you to circumvent the matchmaking system. Even though streamers are letting your see when they click the find match button, by watching their stream and clicking it at the same time you are exploiting the system to get matched up against them when you should not. Cheating of this kind ruins the ladder experience for players since they are forced to play people they would normally not play (often of lower skill level). Stream snipers should be banned and it is in the best interest of Blizzard to do so in order to motive players to use the ladder as a practice tool.
If you want to play games against top players why don't you ask to custom with them? If they won't, why don't you just play on ladder until your MMR is high enough to get matched against them.
What makes you think you are better than the other people on ladder that are legitimately getting cued against these players?
Hi sir, I am legitimately getting cued against these players, there is no way that really low level players get matched against high-tier players. I am gm on EU and I just enjoy playing vs good players for practice/getting some exposure. I do not see how this is in any way cheating.
Then why do you need to stream snipe? If you want to play more games against these guys ask them to custom. What makes you think you deserve to get matched against them more than other people playing on ladder?
As I said in my other post, if you want exposure show you're good by being high on ladder and playing in tourneys. By circumventing the matchmaking system all it shows is that you are selfish and don't mind circumventing the rules that are set in place. If you want to get good and be recognized you'll prioritize your time accordingly, not make excuses for cheating.
Also, it'd be cool if Blizzard adjusted the player match to deprioritize facing the same player multiple times, or at least put a cap on the number of encounters over a time period.
On November 16 2011 07:50 luvy wrote: May i then ask for your motivation behind streamsniping and twitterspamming? Other than getting attention you could never get through your skill or tournament results eventhough you are top 200 gm? because if that is the case i will stop writing in this thread as it is just hogging more attention to yourself...........
Hi again Luvy, My motivation behind the streamsniping is been made quite clear in the op as well as different posts throughout the thread. I regret telling the guy my twitter and attention whoring. Normally I do not do shit like that, but sadly I did. I would like to apoligize for that fact. On the other hand I think a lot of people are to quick judging stream snipers.
On November 16 2011 07:41 DrDoom wrote: Stream sniping is cheating because it is a way for you to circumvent the matchmaking system. Even though streamers are letting your see when they click the find match button, by watching their stream and clicking it at the same time you are exploiting the system to get matched up against them when you should not. Cheating of this kind ruins the ladder experience for players since they are forced to play people they would normally not play (often of lower skill level). Stream snipers should be banned and it is in the best interest of Blizzard to do so in order to motive players to use the ladder as a practice tool.
If you want to play games against top players why don't you ask to custom with them? If they won't, why don't you just play on ladder until your MMR is high enough to get matched against them.
What makes you think you are better than the other people on ladder that are legitimately getting cued against these players?
Hi sir, I am legitimately getting cued against these players, there is no way that really low level players get matched against high-tier players. I am gm on EU and I just enjoy playing vs good players for practice/getting some exposure. I do not see how this is in any way cheating.
Then why do you need to stream snipe? If you want to play more games against these guys ask them to custom. What makes you think you deserve to get matched against them more than other people playing on ladder?
As I said in my other post, if you want exposure show you're good by being high on ladder and playing in tourneys. By circumventing the matchmaking system all it shows is that you are selfish and don't mind circumventing the rules that are set in place. If you want to get good and be recognized you'll prioritize your time accordingly, not make excuses for cheating.
You're not circumventing the MM system though. You still have to hit "Find Match" and the system evaluates you against all other potential opponents in the queue and determines you are the best match for said streamer.
Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
I don't see what the problem with wanting to play against notably skilled players. It's hard to prove weather or not someone is stream cheating though. You'd have to watch the replay to prove it really. If they have a similar MMR to the person they are trying to snipe, then why can't they give the person streaming a run for their money? When someone loses to a stream sniper they immediately blame it on stream cheating with little to no proof.
On November 16 2011 07:41 DrDoom wrote: Stream sniping is cheating because it is a way for you to circumvent the matchmaking system. Even though streamers are letting your see when they click the find match button, by watching their stream and clicking it at the same time you are exploiting the system to get matched up against them when you should not. Cheating of this kind ruins the ladder experience for players since they are forced to play people they would normally not play (often of lower skill level). Stream snipers should be banned and it is in the best interest of Blizzard to do so in order to motive players to use the ladder as a practice tool.
If you want to play games against top players why don't you ask to custom with them? If they won't, why don't you just play on ladder until your MMR is high enough to get matched against them.
What makes you think you are better than the other people on ladder that are legitimately getting cued against these players?
Hi sir, I am legitimately getting cued against these players, there is no way that really low level players get matched against high-tier players. I am gm on EU and I just enjoy playing vs good players for practice/getting some exposure. I do not see how this is in any way cheating.
Then why do you need to stream snipe? If you want to play more games against these guys ask them to custom. What makes you think you deserve to get matched against them more than other people playing on ladder?
As I said in my other post, if you want exposure show you're good by being high on ladder and playing in tourneys. By circumventing the matchmaking system all it shows is that you are selfish and don't mind circumventing the rules that are set in place. If you want to get good and be recognized you'll prioritize your time accordingly, not make excuses for cheating.
Hi DrDoom, Our opinions clearly differ, I already tried explaining my motivation and why I do it. If you feel different I do not think there is any way I can make you change your mind. I just wanted to make a thread explaining that not all stream snipers are cheaters.
It's all in the intent. OP isn't honestly doing anything wrong if he's writing the truth. Nothing wrong on stream to see someone who's gunning for the specific streamer for a game to test his skills. Problem is, most of the time it's RatzDeezer or combatex purposely trying to ruin the stream. Why? There actually is not a legitimate reason, unless you count being a dick as one.
I'd say don't stream snipe because of the stigma attached to it, but if you have good intentions then whatever. Have your fun but try not to ruin anyone else's.
Or, Blizzard and Jtv/Twitch/Whoever could collaborate on something called "Registered Streams". If a pro player uses a Registered Stream, Blizzard sends the IP address of their opponent to their registered streaming provider. That provider agrees to black out the stream for the opponent's IP for the duration of the game.
This could cause larger groups of folks to get blacked out if there's network address translation going on, or proxies. Also, it could be circumvented by using some other access point (cell phone or something). I think it's an improvement, and would solve the problem in most cases. You'll always have the locksmith/thief battle about these sorts of things.
On November 16 2011 07:41 DrDoom wrote: Stream sniping is cheating because it is a way for you to circumvent the matchmaking system. Even though streamers are letting your see when they click the find match button, by watching their stream and clicking it at the same time you are exploiting the system to get matched up against them when you should not. Cheating of this kind ruins the ladder experience for players since they are forced to play people they would normally not play (often of lower skill level). Stream snipers should be banned and it is in the best interest of Blizzard to do so in order to motive players to use the ladder as a practice tool.
If you want to play games against top players why don't you ask to custom with them? If they won't, why don't you just play on ladder until your MMR is high enough to get matched against them.
What makes you think you are better than the other people on ladder that are legitimately getting cued against these players?
Hi sir, I am legitimately getting cued against these players, there is no way that really low level players get matched against high-tier players. I am gm on EU and I just enjoy playing vs good players for practice/getting some exposure. I do not see how this is in any way cheating.
Then why do you need to stream snipe? If you want to play more games against these guys ask them to custom. What makes you think you deserve to get matched against them more than other people playing on ladder?
As I said in my other post, if you want exposure show you're good by being high on ladder and playing in tourneys. By circumventing the matchmaking system all it shows is that you are selfish and don't mind circumventing the rules that are set in place. If you want to get good and be recognized you'll prioritize your time accordingly, not make excuses for cheating.
Hi DrDoom, Our opinions clearly differ, I already tried explaining my motivation and why I do it. If you feel different I do not think there is any way I can make you change your mind. I just wanted to make a thread explaining that not all stream snipers are cheaters.
If you want to explain your behavior then why don't you answer my questions.
Why do you think you deserve to get matched against these players more than other people on the ladder? What not just ask for custom games if you want to play these guys? If you want to be recognized why don't you prioritize your time accordingly instead of taking the easy way out that many people consider cheating?
On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote: Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
I love it when people call into question "professionalism"
I am a professional. I stream for money and to extend my social-reach. When someone spams my game with their twitter, says "sup guys" to my stream and then complains when I call them a "stream cheater" I have no regrets.
On November 16 2011 07:48 Zeddicus wrote: I think if you stream snipe, you can expect the person you snipe to believe you are cheating along with it--regardless of whether you are or not. If you don't want to be accused of cheating, don't snipe.
This seems to be what people think, but I think it's a bit odd as there is nothing wrong with some sniping. I think it is strange that people directly think your are cheating when u snipe. But that is my opinion ofcourse. With this thread I just wanted to make clear that not everybody who streamsnipes is like combat ex.
You are entitled to your opinion, that's cool. I agree, not everyone who snipes is stream cheating at the same time as well. But, it's just the hard truth, you will be labeled a cheater. It's like that Dave Chappelle "Whore's Uniform" bit. You may not be a cheater, but you are wearing a cheater's uniform. You can't get mad when someone calls you a cheater while you are wearing a cheater's uniform. You aren't going to make any ground pleading to the community that people wearing cheater uniforms aren't cheaters either. Unfortunately all this thread turned out to be is a giant billboard on the highway saying "I'm wearing a cheater's uniform"
On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote: Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
I love it when people call into question "professionalism"
I am a professional. I stream for money and to extend my social-reach. When someone spams my game with their twitter, says "sup guys" to my stream and then complains when I call them a "stream cheater" I have no regrets.
if that makes me unprofessional so be it.
Hi iNcontroL, Even though we do not agree with each other on this topic I would like you to think about the impact on someone's "carreer" u have as a pretty well known figure in the community. For the telling my twitter I apoligize, that isn't what i normally do and I will not do it again in the future. For the saying sup guys, I see nothing wrong with that.
On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote: Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
I love it when people call into question "professionalism"
I am a professional. I stream for money and to extend my social-reach. When someone spams my game with their twitter, says "sup guys" to my stream and then complains when I call them a "stream cheater" I have no regrets.
if that makes me unprofessional so be it.
It could be the fact that they know you are streaming and trying to promote themselves. There is no proof there that they are watching it.
Stream sniping is the same as cheating. This is because you are cheating the system which is supposed to select opponents at random for the other player, by forcing them to play you. This whole thread is a joke.
On November 16 2011 08:06 TheChostoProject wrote: Don't want to get stream sniped/cheated? Don't stream.
Don't want to get your robbed?? Don't leave your wallet alone in the middle of the street full of cash in a bad neighborhood for 5 days.
This is a ridiculous straw man argument.
While it is true that not streaming prevents stream sniping/cheating this is not what is in the best interest for the community. If people want pro players to stream and if the community wants to make it possible for players to earn a living by streaming then we must not tolerate any kind of stream sniping or cheating.
If blizzard wants pro players to use their ladder to practice it is also in their best interest to ban stream snipers and cheaters.
On November 16 2011 07:48 Zeddicus wrote: I think if you stream snipe, you can expect the person you snipe to believe you are cheating along with it--regardless of whether you are or not. If you don't want to be accused of cheating, don't snipe.
This seems to be what people think, but I think it's a bit odd as there is nothing wrong with some sniping. I think it is strange that people directly think your are cheating when u snipe. But that is my opinion ofcourse. With this thread I just wanted to make clear that not everybody who streamsnipes is like combat ex.
You are entitled to your opinion, that's cool. I agree, not everyone who snipes is stream cheating at the same time as well. But, it's just the hard truth, you will be labeled a cheater. It's like that Dave Chappelle "Whore's Uniform" bit. You may not be a cheater, but you are wearing a cheater's uniform. You can't get mad when someone calls you a cheater while you are wearing a cheater's uniform. You aren't going to make any ground pleading to the community that people wearing cheater uniforms aren't cheaters either. Unfortunately all this thread turned out to be is a giant billboard on the highway saying "I'm wearing a cheater's uniform"
Hi Zeddicus, I completely understand, but I just feel like you should not judge people the way their uniform looks, but what the clues tell you! I just wanted to tell the community that not every stream sniper is a stream cheater and that there actually is a difference! <3
On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote: Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
I love it when people call into question "professionalism"
I am a professional. I stream for money and to extend my social-reach. When someone spams my game with their twitter, says "sup guys" to my stream and then complains when I call them a "stream cheater" I have no regrets.
if that makes me unprofessional so be it.
It could be the fact that they know you are streaming and trying to promote themselves. There is no proof there that they are watching it.
Yup. Read my previous posts for why I don't care about "evidence" or whatever. It isn't like I am having this man hung.. he wants to spam and stream snipe famous players fine, he will look like a cheater. If he doesn't cheat he probably shouldn't announce he is stream sniping and then talk to my stream.
On November 16 2011 08:06 TheChostoProject wrote: Don't want to get stream sniped/cheated? Don't stream.
Don't want to get your robbed?? Don't leave your wallet alone in the middle of the street full of cash in a bad neighborhood for 5 days.
^ thanks. If he's cheating/streamsniping on 1 game out of 20, so what ? Do you lose money ? No. If he's attention whoring, so what ? It's human and natural. But you can't call him out without any proof. Watch the replay before calling him a fucking cheater. Also Nerchio did streamsnipe Stephano a few times, guess what ? It was all in good fun.
On November 16 2011 08:08 Fym wrote: Stream sniping is the same as cheating. This is because you are cheating the system which is supposed to select opponents at random for the other player, by forcing them to play you. This whole thread is a joke.
Hi Fym, If you still feel like stream sniping is the same as cheating , than I think u missed the point of this thread. I tried to explain that there is a difference.
People who conflate stream sniping and cheating want to avoid the unpleasant feeling of losing to someone who has already shown they were itching for a game. This way, when the replay of them losing inevitably spreads, they can dismiss it without too much mental anguish.
It's sort of like when people explain away all their ladder losses with the phrase "it's only ladder." Until the foreign Starcraft 2 scene develops into something like the Korean Broodwar scene where there are massive teams with huge stables of practice partners (30+) this statement will remain nonsense. But I guess I'm walking away from the topic of this thread.
I don't judge progamers particularly harshly for any of this. Starcraft 2 is a game where it's easy to lose, and getting crushed by a casual player isn't easy to process when you devote your life to the game. Especially when you're in the role of progamer and your opponent is in the role of fan or anti-fan (he does watch your stream after all).
On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote: Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
I love it when people call into question "professionalism"
I am a professional. I stream for money and to extend my social-reach. When someone spams my game with their twitter, says "sup guys" to my stream and then complains when I call them a "stream cheater" I have no regrets.
if that makes me unprofessional so be it.
Hi iNcontroL, Even though we do not agree with each other on this topic I would like you to think about the impact on someone's "carreer" u have as a pretty well known figure in the community. For the telling my twitter I apoligize, that isn't what i normally do and I will not do it again in the future. For the saying sup guys, I see nothing wrong with that.
if you starting your "career" by stream sniping people, your career will likely fail. name one person who has made a career by annoying better players.
most people hate stream snipers because they think they are stream cheaters. you are only hurting yourself by stream sniping. i don't think there is anything wrong with what you are doing (assuming you arent cheating), but you are only hurting your so called goal of becoming a pro-gamer, not helping it.
Kevin, don't listen to all the haters, just keep playing the way you want. Most of the hate is probably comming from people who would like to snipe themselfs, but aren't good enough to get matched up against the higher tier players .
As far as I see it, the way you're snipping isn't bad at all (providing you really do aim for the 1 time, serious game, encounter ofcourse :D, anything else would just be anoying and should indeed be shunned). And just out of curiosity, are you streaming? If so, where?
Finaly, for all clarity, as far as I'm concerned sniping means timing your gamesearch to match another players search and nothing else, any other activity would be cheating (i.e. keep stream sound and or video playing for example)
On November 16 2011 08:01 dr.entropy wrote: Or, Blizzard and Jtv/Twitch/Whoever could collaborate on something called "Registered Streams". If a pro player uses a Registered Stream, Blizzard sends the IP address of their opponent to their registered streaming provider. That provider agrees to black out the stream for the opponent's IP for the duration of the game.
Wow, that's a whole lot of engineering for a problem that affects a very small number of people (even among TwitchTV streamers.)
Regardless, it seems to me that popular streamers generally prefer not to be stream sniped, so while doing so may not have the ethical implications of stream cheating for hidden in-game info, I'd definitely call it rude, and you shouldn't be surprised to have a negative reaction from them.
On November 16 2011 08:06 TheChostoProject wrote: Don't want to get stream sniped/cheated? Don't stream.
Don't want to get your robbed?? Don't leave your wallet alone in the middle of the street full of cash in a bad neighborhood for 5 days.
^ thanks. If he's cheating/streamsniping on 1 game out of 20, so what ? Do you lose money ? No. If he's attention whoring, so what ? It's human and natural. But you can't call him out without any proof. Watch the replay before calling him a fucking cheater. Also Nerchio did streamsnipe Stephano a few times, guess what ? It was all in good fun.
Sorry why cant you do this? is it ..... possibly unethical? is it because the sniper doesnt like it? why does that sound familiar.
It should be up to the streamer if its all in good fun, most people wouldnt get mad at a friend.
On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote: Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
I love it when people call into question "professionalism"
I am a professional. I stream for money and to extend my social-reach. When someone spams my game with their twitter, says "sup guys" to my stream and then complains when I call them a "stream cheater" I have no regrets.
if that makes me unprofessional so be it.
You're actually right. It has nothing to do with professionalism and everything to do with courtesy. I used the wrong word there. You should have the courtesy to know that what you say can do damage to someone who is doing no wrong. Someone who is likely a fan of you, as I am.
Now... If the person is spamming your chat with their twitter, that actually is actually something bad. But it's something completely unrelated to cheating. You should address them for the things they do wrong, not jump to conclusions and tell everyone that they're doing something against the very spirit and nature of the game.
Also, don't take this as me jumping down your throat, I actually have no idea what went on in that game. For all I know all you said was "He's probably cheating, because he's stream sniping" in the game, and that isn't an accusation that someone should really even worry about. It's the idea, from what you said earlier in the thread, that everyone who stream snipes is undoubtedly going to make the jump to stream cheater that I take issue with.
Somehow I feel this thread isn't really about stream sniping anymore, but about Harstem trying to get an "apology" out of incontrol.
At Harstem: I can't shake the feeling this thread is more about you getting recognition and "clearing" your name, than about discussing whether or not stream sniping is ok, or not.
While inc probably shouldnt call you a 100% cheater without proof, maybe you can have som understanding for his side. He sometimes streams, and when he does, he often get matched with snipers. Many of these cheat. There is no way whatsoever to prove if they are cheating or not, yet he knows that a big fraction does.
Ofc inc will feel frustrated, as he wants to show games to his fans, but is annoyed by the stream cheaters. I can perfectly well understand that it is not so easy for him to always go "well, I have no solid proof that this guy doesnt cheat, so I wont be annoyed at him". When he encounters another stream sniper, and thus probably a cheater, he will get annoyed and things like that can slip.
So when you snipe, realise that you mix yourself in with a group of cheaters, and there is no way for anyone to tell if you are cheating or not. I dont think stream sniping is helping the streamer much, actually I just think it blocks him from potentially getting matched with someone really good (snipers are often a bit below the level of the streamer), thus actually making the stream less enjoyable to watch.
So in the end I have no sympathy for you. I have no idea if you cheat or not, and you will never be able to prove either, but even assuming you are not cheating, you are still harming the stream (by blocking him from better opponents, by advertising yourself, and by putting the streamer in a bad mood for facing another sniper/cheater). Why? attention.
If you want attention, (maybe even positive attention, who knows!) then write a guide in the strategy section with your favourite build,exlplaining all its ins and outs, and attach a replay pack. I assume you are high master (or GM) if you get matched with inc, so you should be able to do that in a way that help a lot of people. gl.
I personally think stream sniping shouldn't happen. Your passing blizzards system of matchmaking the normal way. Que up when you want to play. If you want to play your favorite player/streamer do it like everyone else and just que up when you want to play.
On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote: Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
I love it when people call into question "professionalism"
I am a professional. I stream for money and to extend my social-reach. When someone spams my game with their twitter, says "sup guys" to my stream and then complains when I call them a "stream cheater" I have no regrets.
if that makes me unprofessional so be it.
It could be the fact that they know you are streaming and trying to promote themselves. There is no proof there that they are watching it.
Yup. Read my previous posts for why I don't care about "evidence" or whatever. It isn't like I am having this man hung.. he wants to spam and stream snipe famous players fine, he will look like a cheater. If he doesn't cheat he probably shouldn't announce he is stream sniping and then talk to my stream.
I thought America was all about innocent until proven guilty.
Seems pretty easy to understand if you ask me. I do however agree somewhat with IncontroL's point that while yes giving everyone the benefit of the doubt is a noble thing to do, it can also be quite ignorant. In this case, from IncontroL's pov, the OP seems to really want to get his name out there by spamming his twitter account etc. I won't say knowing that someone wants to get more recognized automatically puts them in the boat of eventually taking that second step into cheating but I will say some of you may be a little too nice.
Unfortunately all cases are different; you have you people who stream cheat and don't care who knows (combatex, deezer), your people who stream cheat and haven't been caught, the people who stream snipe and never let it be known and finally the people who stream snipe and make it public, usually to defend allegations that they are also cheating (OP).
My point is yes there are people who snipe but do not continue to watch the stream of the player they are sniping while playing and yes there are people who snipe and then eventually turn that into cheating. To say that someone like IncontroL should just give people the benefit of the doubt however, may seem silly to some but being suspicious does have good reason, in my opinion.
The whole situation is a huge grey area if you ask me and just comes down to a matter of what each person has gone through. While some of you wouldn't really think much about someone loitering outside your apartment complex late at night, you can't really blame some others who may have been robbed by someone doing the exact same thing for being more suspicious.
On November 16 2011 08:06 TheChostoProject wrote: Don't want to get stream sniped/cheated? Don't stream.
Don't want to get your robbed?? Don't leave your wallet alone in the middle of the street full of cash in a bad neighborhood for 5 days.
^ thanks. If he's cheating/streamsniping on 1 game out of 20, so what ? Do you lose money ? No. If he's attention whoring, so what ? It's human and natural. But you can't call him out without any proof. Watch the replay before calling him a fucking cheater. Also Nerchio did streamsnipe Stephano a few times, guess what ? It was all in good fun.
Sorry why cant you do this? is it ..... possibly unethical? is it because the sniper doesnt like it? why does that sound familiar.
It should be up to the streamer if its all in good fun, most people wouldnt get mad at a friend.
On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote: Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
I love it when people call into question "professionalism"
I am a professional. I stream for money and to extend my social-reach. When someone spams my game with their twitter, says "sup guys" to my stream and then complains when I call them a "stream cheater" I have no regrets.
if that makes me unprofessional so be it.
It could be the fact that they know you are streaming and trying to promote themselves. There is no proof there that they are watching it.
Yup. Read my previous posts for why I don't care about "evidence" or whatever. It isn't like I am having this man hung.. he wants to spam and stream snipe famous players fine, he will look like a cheater. If he doesn't cheat he probably shouldn't announce he is stream sniping and then talk to my stream.
I thought America was all about innocent until proven guilty.
On November 16 2011 08:08 Fym wrote: Stream sniping is the same as cheating. This is because you are cheating the system which is supposed to select opponents at random for the other player, by forcing them to play you. This whole thread is a joke.
Hi Fym, If you still feel like stream sniping is the same as cheating , than I think u missed the point of this thread. I tried to explain that there is a difference.
It looks like you're being pretty good about addressing people's post. But you still haven't answered my post
Why do you think you deserve to get matched against these players more than other people on the ladder? What not just ask for custom games if you want to play these guys? If you want to be recognized why don't you prioritize your time accordingly instead of taking the easy way out that many people consider cheating?
As I mentioned in my previous post this selfish behavior is bad for the community. If people want pro players to stream and if the community wants to make it possible for players to earn a living by streaming then stream sniping and cheating should not be tolerated.
Would you rather that no pros stream to avoid getting sniped or being able to watch their streams?
no1 cares about 'stream sniping' aslong as u don't play the same guy 10 times in a row, that would just make you a Stalker (no not the Protoss version). Stream cheating on the other hand is really disgusting, it's not illegal but if sum1 gets catched doing it they should be banned from playing tournaments.
edit: Read some other posts and I agree with the following. If u stream snipe a will be associated with stream cheaters because most stream snipers are known for also cheating. If u want to stream snipe a pro player just do it once and then move on, don't keep queing into the same guy or people won't know the difference anymore and just call u a cheater.
Stream sniping is unethical. There is no informed consent. If you asked "pro gamer joe" for some practice games and he said yes, you both agree to play. The important thing here is, you asked, and he agreed. If you're stream sniping someone, it's essentially stalking. You agree to play practice games with him, but he doesn't. You might be ruining his day if he wants to play all 3 matchups or something.
Any benefit you get, such as being on a famous guy's stream, doesn't change the fact that you are abusing things to get your way. You might as well be watching his stream and cheating while you're at it. It's just rude. If it was common practice, streaming would be less common. Stream sniping is a parasitic practice on the community.
On November 16 2011 08:08 Fym wrote: Stream sniping is the same as cheating. This is because you are cheating the system which is supposed to select opponents at random for the other player, by forcing them to play you. This whole thread is a joke.
Hi Fym, If you still feel like stream sniping is the same as cheating , than I think u missed the point of this thread. I tried to explain that there is a difference.
It looks like you're being pretty good about addressing people's post. But you still haven't answered my post
Why do you think you deserve to get matched against these players more than other people on the ladder? What not just ask for custom games if you want to play these guys? If you want to be recognized why don't you prioritize your time accordingly instead of taking the easy way out that many people consider cheating?
As I mentioned in my previous post this selfish behavior is bad for the community. If people want pro players to stream and if the community wants to make it possible for players to earn a living by streaming then stream sniping and cheating should not be tolerated.
Would you rather that no pros stream to avoid getting sniped or being able to watch their streams?
I dont care if theyre getting sniped as a viewer. In fact, I am happy to see some "underdogs" playing and eventually winning against them. As long as they just do it once (like Harstem) and dont cheat everything is fine. The skill level of game is the same as without sniping as the MMR is about the same
On November 16 2011 08:06 TheChostoProject wrote: Don't want to get stream sniped/cheated? Don't stream.
Don't want to get your robbed?? Don't leave your wallet alone in the middle of the street full of cash in a bad neighborhood for 5 days.
^ thanks. If he's cheating/streamsniping on 1 game out of 20, so what ? Do you lose money ? No. If he's attention whoring, so what ? It's human and natural. But you can't call him out without any proof. Watch the replay before calling him a fucking cheater. Also Nerchio did streamsnipe Stephano a few times, guess what ? It was all in good fun.
Sorry why cant you do this? is it ..... possibly unethical? is it because the sniper doesnt like it? why does that sound familiar.
It should be up to the streamer if its all in good fun, most people wouldnt get mad at a friend.
Because you look stupid and mad.
you look stupid and mad? then why is it the sniper who is complaining, shouldnt incontrol be more concerned with looking stupid and mad, danm these snipers really care about him.
In any case i guess the OP is right, (gunna use incontrol as an example) what are you thinking incontrol, have some compassion. If someone wants to do whatever they can to bypass matchmaking its their right. You should play them and enjoy it. Once the game is over dont blame anything on them cheating, at least not until you've allocated some time to going over the replay and displayed it to a court of law. Allow a jury to vote, only once the majority decides they are cheating can you say anything. /sarcasm
On November 16 2011 08:16 Cascade wrote: While inc probably shouldnt call you a 100% cheater without proof, maybe you can have som understanding for his side. He sometimes streams, and when he does, he often get matched with snipers. Many of these cheat. There is no way whatsoever to prove if they are cheating or not, yet he knows that a big fraction does.
Ofc inc will feel frustrated, as he wants to show games to his fans, but is annoyed by the stream cheaters. I can perfectly well understand that it is not so easy for him to always go "well, I have no solid proof that this guy doesnt cheat, so I wont be annoyed at him". When he encounters another stream sniper, and thus probably a cheater, he will get annoyed and things like that can slip.
So when you snipe, realise that you mix yourself in with a group of cheaters, and there is no way for anyone to tell if you are cheating or not. I dont think stream sniping is helping the streamer much, actually I just think it blocks him from potentially getting matched with someone really good (snipers are often a bit below the level of the streamer), thus actually making the stream less enjoyable to watch.
So in the end I have no sympathy for you. I have no idea if you cheat or not, and you will never be able to prove either, but even assuming you are not cheating, you are still harming the stream (by blocking him from better opponents, by advertising yourself, and by putting the streamer in a bad mood for facing another sniper/cheater). Why? attention.
If you want attention, (maybe even positive attention, who knows!) then write a guide in the strategy section with your favourite build,exlplaining all its ins and outs, and attach a replay pack. I assume you are high master (or GM) if you get matched with inc, so you should be able to do that in a way that help a lot of people. gl.
Hi Cascade, I get your point, but I still feel like he shouldn't just blindly state before the game even really started "you stream cheat" that is all I wanted to achieve by creating this thread. Have a good night and see you in the morning!
On November 16 2011 08:16 Cascade wrote: While inc probably shouldnt call you a 100% cheater without proof, maybe you can have som understanding for his side. He sometimes streams, and when he does, he often get matched with snipers. Many of these cheat. There is no way whatsoever to prove if they are cheating or not, yet he knows that a big fraction does.
Ofc inc will feel frustrated, as he wants to show games to his fans, but is annoyed by the stream cheaters. I can perfectly well understand that it is not so easy for him to always go "well, I have no solid proof that this guy doesnt cheat, so I wont be annoyed at him". When he encounters another stream sniper, and thus probably a cheater, he will get annoyed and things like that can slip.
So when you snipe, realise that you mix yourself in with a group of cheaters, and there is no way for anyone to tell if you are cheating or not. I dont think stream sniping is helping the streamer much, actually I just think it blocks him from potentially getting matched with someone really good (snipers are often a bit below the level of the streamer), thus actually making the stream less enjoyable to watch.
So in the end I have no sympathy for you. I have no idea if you cheat or not, and you will never be able to prove either, but even assuming you are not cheating, you are still harming the stream (by blocking him from better opponents, by advertising yourself, and by putting the streamer in a bad mood for facing another sniper/cheater). Why? attention.
If you want attention, (maybe even positive attention, who knows!) then write a guide in the strategy section with your favourite build,exlplaining all its ins and outs, and attach a replay pack. I assume you are high master (or GM) if you get matched with inc, so you should be able to do that in a way that help a lot of people. gl.
Hi Cascade, I get your point, but I still feel like he shouldn't just blindly state before the game even really started "you stream cheat" that is all I wanted to achieve by creating this thread. Have a good night and see you in the morning!
what do you propose he do to stop you from stream sniping?
On November 16 2011 08:16 Cascade wrote: While inc probably shouldnt call you a 100% cheater without proof, maybe you can have som understanding for his side. He sometimes streams, and when he does, he often get matched with snipers. Many of these cheat. There is no way whatsoever to prove if they are cheating or not, yet he knows that a big fraction does.
Ofc inc will feel frustrated, as he wants to show games to his fans, but is annoyed by the stream cheaters. I can perfectly well understand that it is not so easy for him to always go "well, I have no solid proof that this guy doesnt cheat, so I wont be annoyed at him". When he encounters another stream sniper, and thus probably a cheater, he will get annoyed and things like that can slip.
So when you snipe, realise that you mix yourself in with a group of cheaters, and there is no way for anyone to tell if you are cheating or not. I dont think stream sniping is helping the streamer much, actually I just think it blocks him from potentially getting matched with someone really good (snipers are often a bit below the level of the streamer), thus actually making the stream less enjoyable to watch.
So in the end I have no sympathy for you. I have no idea if you cheat or not, and you will never be able to prove either, but even assuming you are not cheating, you are still harming the stream (by blocking him from better opponents, by advertising yourself, and by putting the streamer in a bad mood for facing another sniper/cheater). Why? attention.
If you want attention, (maybe even positive attention, who knows!) then write a guide in the strategy section with your favourite build,exlplaining all its ins and outs, and attach a replay pack. I assume you are high master (or GM) if you get matched with inc, so you should be able to do that in a way that help a lot of people. gl.
Hi Cascade, I get your point, but I still feel like he shouldn't just blindly state before the game even really started "you stream cheat" that is all I wanted to achieve by creating this thread. Have a good night and see you in the morning!
By not responding to my post you are acknowledging that you are just being selfish when stream sniping and have no real reasons to be doing this. Your actions are just as bad as any stream cheater and are bad for the community. Instead of being recognized all you are doing is gaining infamy.
So I get streamsniped sometimes, which is amusing because I am in Gold league. It's actually quite a problem for me, makes the matches much tougher because as a gold league player my play is very limited in terms of what I can reliably do so I am far more predictable if people have watched my stream and gotten an idea of my playstyle. I don't really begrudge people for doing it but for a time I did run a short 1 minute delay on my stream to prevent it from happening because it was causing me difficulties at the time.
On November 16 2011 08:08 Fym wrote: Stream sniping is the same as cheating. This is because you are cheating the system which is supposed to select opponents at random for the other player, by forcing them to play you. This whole thread is a joke.
Hi Fym, If you still feel like stream sniping is the same as cheating , than I think u missed the point of this thread. I tried to explain that there is a difference.
It looks like you're being pretty good about addressing people's post. But you still haven't answered my post
Why do you think you deserve to get matched against these players more than other people on the ladder? What not just ask for custom games if you want to play these guys? If you want to be recognized why don't you prioritize your time accordingly instead of taking the easy way out that many people consider cheating?
As I mentioned in my previous post this selfish behavior is bad for the community. If people want pro players to stream and if the community wants to make it possible for players to earn a living by streaming then stream sniping and cheating should not be tolerated.
Would you rather that no pros stream to avoid getting sniped or being able to watch their streams?
Hi DrDoom, I am sorry I did not adress your post, but that is because I am not a native english speaker and I don't feel that I could clearly word what I would like to reply to your post. The custom game part is easy: They almost never wanna play if I ask Goodnight
On November 16 2011 08:24 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I get streamsniped sometimes, which is amusing because I am in Gold league. It's actually quite a problem for me, makes the matches much tougher because as a gold league player my play is very limited in terms of what I can reliably do so I am far more predictable if people have watched my stream and gotten an idea of my playstyle. I don't really begrudge people for doing it but for a time I did run a short 1 minute delay on my stream to prevent it from happening because it was causing me difficulties at the time.
Hi Totalbiscuit, I get that it sometimes is annoying, but is it a good enough reason to just blindly call someone a stream cheater?
On November 16 2011 08:06 TheChostoProject wrote: Don't want to get stream sniped/cheated? Don't stream.
Don't want to get your robbed?? Don't leave your wallet alone in the middle of the street full of cash in a bad neighborhood for 5 days.
Your two statements are not relevant to eachother. I think you meant to say:
Don't want to get stream sniped/cheated? Don't stream.
Don't want to get your robbed?? Don't earn any money.
That won't be acceptable will it?
Ok, perhaps I was exaggerating.
But if you're gonna complain about stream abuse, then you all should be claiming for full stream regulation. That includes not only measures against sniping/cheating, but also sharing the earning with the opponents (no reason why the stream should get all the money when he's always playing agaisnt someone else), AND copyright regulation for music.
On November 16 2011 08:16 Cascade wrote: While inc probably shouldnt call you a 100% cheater without proof, maybe you can have som understanding for his side. He sometimes streams, and when he does, he often get matched with snipers. Many of these cheat. There is no way whatsoever to prove if they are cheating or not, yet he knows that a big fraction does.
Ofc inc will feel frustrated, as he wants to show games to his fans, but is annoyed by the stream cheaters. I can perfectly well understand that it is not so easy for him to always go "well, I have no solid proof that this guy doesnt cheat, so I wont be annoyed at him". When he encounters another stream sniper, and thus probably a cheater, he will get annoyed and things like that can slip.
So when you snipe, realise that you mix yourself in with a group of cheaters, and there is no way for anyone to tell if you are cheating or not. I dont think stream sniping is helping the streamer much, actually I just think it blocks him from potentially getting matched with someone really good (snipers are often a bit below the level of the streamer), thus actually making the stream less enjoyable to watch.
So in the end I have no sympathy for you. I have no idea if you cheat or not, and you will never be able to prove either, but even assuming you are not cheating, you are still harming the stream (by blocking him from better opponents, by advertising yourself, and by putting the streamer in a bad mood for facing another sniper/cheater). Why? attention.
If you want attention, (maybe even positive attention, who knows!) then write a guide in the strategy section with your favourite build,exlplaining all its ins and outs, and attach a replay pack. I assume you are high master (or GM) if you get matched with inc, so you should be able to do that in a way that help a lot of people. gl.
Hi Cascade, I get your point, but I still feel like he shouldn't just blindly state before the game even really started "you stream cheat" that is all I wanted to achieve by creating this thread. Have a good night and see you in the morning!
hi there, If we are going to make a 10+ page therad every time a stremer makes a small slip (yes, this is a very small and instantly forgiven slip from inc) RICH would have to invent a new data-compression system to fit them all on their server. Post this in his stream thread at most, or better, realise that you annoy the streamer by sniping and stop doing it.
On November 16 2011 08:24 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I get streamsniped sometimes, which is amusing because I am in Gold league. It's actually quite a problem for me, makes the matches much tougher because as a gold league player my play is very limited in terms of what I can reliably do so I am far more predictable if people have watched my stream and gotten an idea of my playstyle. I don't really begrudge people for doing it but for a time I did run a short 1 minute delay on my stream to prevent it from happening because it was causing me difficulties at the time.
Hi Totalbiscuit, I get that it sometimes is annoying, but is it a good enough reason to just blindly call someone a stream cheater?
On November 16 2011 08:16 Cascade wrote: While inc probably shouldnt call you a 100% cheater without proof, maybe you can have som understanding for his side. He sometimes streams, and when he does, he often get matched with snipers. Many of these cheat. There is no way whatsoever to prove if they are cheating or not, yet he knows that a big fraction does.
Ofc inc will feel frustrated, as he wants to show games to his fans, but is annoyed by the stream cheaters. I can perfectly well understand that it is not so easy for him to always go "well, I have no solid proof that this guy doesnt cheat, so I wont be annoyed at him". When he encounters another stream sniper, and thus probably a cheater, he will get annoyed and things like that can slip.
So when you snipe, realise that you mix yourself in with a group of cheaters, and there is no way for anyone to tell if you are cheating or not. I dont think stream sniping is helping the streamer much, actually I just think it blocks him from potentially getting matched with someone really good (snipers are often a bit below the level of the streamer), thus actually making the stream less enjoyable to watch.
So in the end I have no sympathy for you. I have no idea if you cheat or not, and you will never be able to prove either, but even assuming you are not cheating, you are still harming the stream (by blocking him from better opponents, by advertising yourself, and by putting the streamer in a bad mood for facing another sniper/cheater). Why? attention.
If you want attention, (maybe even positive attention, who knows!) then write a guide in the strategy section with your favourite build,exlplaining all its ins and outs, and attach a replay pack. I assume you are high master (or GM) if you get matched with inc, so you should be able to do that in a way that help a lot of people. gl.
Hi Cascade, I get your point, but I still feel like he shouldn't just blindly state before the game even really started "you stream cheat" that is all I wanted to achieve by creating this thread. Have a good night and see you in the morning!
hi there, If we are going to make a 10+ page therad every time a stremer makes a small slip (yes, this is a very small and instantly forgiven slip from inc) RICH would have to invent a new data-compression system to fit them all on their server. Post this in his stream thread at most, or better, realise that you annoy the streamer by sniping and stop doing it.
Hi Cascade, this isn't just about incontrol, lately more streamers have been just blindly calling people streamcheater without having any evidence.
On November 16 2011 08:24 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I get streamsniped sometimes, which is amusing because I am in Gold league. It's actually quite a problem for me, makes the matches much tougher because as a gold league player my play is very limited in terms of what I can reliably do so I am far more predictable if people have watched my stream and gotten an idea of my playstyle. I don't really begrudge people for doing it but for a time I did run a short 1 minute delay on my stream to prevent it from happening because it was causing me difficulties at the time.
Hi Totalbiscuit, I get that it sometimes is annoying, but is it a good enough reason to just blindly call someone a stream cheater?
What else can he do to stop you from sniping him?
Hi JEcho, Did you actually read the OP and all the other posts I made?
On November 16 2011 08:24 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I get streamsniped sometimes, which is amusing because I am in Gold league. It's actually quite a problem for me, makes the matches much tougher because as a gold league player my play is very limited in terms of what I can reliably do so I am far more predictable if people have watched my stream and gotten an idea of my playstyle. I don't really begrudge people for doing it but for a time I did run a short 1 minute delay on my stream to prevent it from happening because it was causing me difficulties at the time.
Hi Totalbiscuit, I get that it sometimes is annoying, but is it a good enough reason to just blindly call someone a stream cheater?
They arnt doing it blindly, they know you are watching the stream so they have atleast some evidence to point to. If you dont want to be called a cheater stop sniping, cant see the reason you HAVE to snipe.
On November 16 2011 08:21 Harstem wrote: Hi Cascade, I get your point, but I still feel like he shouldn't just blindly state before the game even really started "you stream cheat" that is all I wanted to achieve by creating this thread. Have a good night and see you in the morning!
On November 16 2011 08:15 Junichi wrote: Somehow I feel this thread isn't really about stream sniping anymore, but about Harstem trying to get an "apology" out of incontrol.
At Harstem: I can't shake the feeling this thread is more about you getting recognition and "clearing" your name, than about discussing whether or not stream sniping is ok, or not.
Being right is nice...
Harstem I really think you shouldn't pay so much attention to what other people think of you.
Edit: And now that you admitted this thread was just about you (+ incontrol's reaction to your stream sniping) and how you felt, I can't help but feel this topic is way to insignificant to justify a thread... You seemingly acted a lot like one of the stream cheaters and got called out for it, get over it.
As far as I can see stream sniping is a no win proposition for the sniper.
Most of the people watching the stream will be fans of the person streaming, so if you win they aren't going to like you. They are going to say "well, he's sniped him so he's probably cheating." Even if you're not stream cheating, the viewers will assume you are cause they don't like to think their favourite player will lose to some random on the ladder.
Forget about the streamer for a moment, it's the people watching you're trying to impress. They don't like you for what you just did.
If you lose then you must be really bad to cheat and STILL lose. If you win they will assume it's cause you cheated.
If I see deezer beat incontrol I don't think "wow, that deezer guy is really good". I think what a lame, annoying cheating prick.
If you want to play incontrol ask him for some custom games or something while he streams to raise your profile. Incontrol is a good guy, if you're polite he might be able to help you out. If you're really good at the game some high profile people might take notice and actually want to play you.
On November 16 2011 08:16 Cascade wrote: While inc probably shouldnt call you a 100% cheater without proof, maybe you can have som understanding for his side. He sometimes streams, and when he does, he often get matched with snipers. Many of these cheat. There is no way whatsoever to prove if they are cheating or not, yet he knows that a big fraction does.
Ofc inc will feel frustrated, as he wants to show games to his fans, but is annoyed by the stream cheaters. I can perfectly well understand that it is not so easy for him to always go "well, I have no solid proof that this guy doesnt cheat, so I wont be annoyed at him". When he encounters another stream sniper, and thus probably a cheater, he will get annoyed and things like that can slip.
So when you snipe, realise that you mix yourself in with a group of cheaters, and there is no way for anyone to tell if you are cheating or not. I dont think stream sniping is helping the streamer much, actually I just think it blocks him from potentially getting matched with someone really good (snipers are often a bit below the level of the streamer), thus actually making the stream less enjoyable to watch.
So in the end I have no sympathy for you. I have no idea if you cheat or not, and you will never be able to prove either, but even assuming you are not cheating, you are still harming the stream (by blocking him from better opponents, by advertising yourself, and by putting the streamer in a bad mood for facing another sniper/cheater). Why? attention.
If you want attention, (maybe even positive attention, who knows!) then write a guide in the strategy section with your favourite build,exlplaining all its ins and outs, and attach a replay pack. I assume you are high master (or GM) if you get matched with inc, so you should be able to do that in a way that help a lot of people. gl.
Hi Cascade, I get your point, but I still feel like he shouldn't just blindly state before the game even really started "you stream cheat" that is all I wanted to achieve by creating this thread. Have a good night and see you in the morning!
hi there, If we are going to make a 10+ page therad every time a stremer makes a small slip (yes, this is a very small and instantly forgiven slip from inc) RICH would have to invent a new data-compression system to fit them all on their server. Post this in his stream thread at most, or better, realise that you annoy the streamer by sniping and stop doing it.
Hi Cascade, this isn't just about incontrol, lately more streamers have been just blindly calling people streamcheater without having any evidence.
Dear Harstem,
while I, as previously mentioned, do not support streamers claiming that the sniper is also cheating as an absolutely confirmed fact, I see this as a very small problem compared to the problem that the streamers get sniped in the first hand. Thus, from my point of view, you are asking for improvements in a small problem that you were subjected to which is a direct cause of a much larger problem that you are causing. If anything, you owe inc an apology, as I see it.
sure, but how are people sure that you *aren't* stream cheating.
If you say you don't want to get false accused of stream cheating then stop stream sniping. because it's just a small little step to go from stream sniping to cheating. (you already have it open')
You should be searching for matches on your own, not waiting until your favorite pro hits "play". If you want to be legit about it, then let the system choose your opponent for you. If it wasn't a big deal we'd all be doing it, trying to get efamous for losing on a pros stream.
There are ways of stopping this as a streamer, like making it more difficult by running commercials while you decide to look for matches. Oh but then there is adblock, so if you are using that you also deserve to get punched in the face because you are hurting ESPORTS by not allowing commercials to be played.
On November 16 2011 08:24 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I get streamsniped sometimes, which is amusing because I am in Gold league. It's actually quite a problem for me, makes the matches much tougher because as a gold league player my play is very limited in terms of what I can reliably do so I am far more predictable if people have watched my stream and gotten an idea of my playstyle. I don't really begrudge people for doing it but for a time I did run a short 1 minute delay on my stream to prevent it from happening because it was causing me difficulties at the time.
Hi Totalbiscuit, I get that it sometimes is annoying, but is it a good enough reason to just blindly call someone a stream cheater?
No it's not a good enough reason for calling someone a stream cheater, however I don't really see how you can just assume everyone should give you the benefit of the doubt that you are honest with your sniping. With something like stream sniping the only thing we really have to go off of in terms of evidence is "You stream cheat." "No I don't.". Unfortunately that's not much to go on so people tend to have their own personal opinions. It is unfair to be called a cheater when you snipe someone's stream but I can't really understand how you don't see why people aren't going to give you the benefit of the doubt, especially with someone like IncontroL and his past experiences with stream snipers.
On November 16 2011 08:21 Harstem wrote: Hi Cascade, I get your point, but I still feel like he shouldn't just blindly state before the game even really started "you stream cheat" that is all I wanted to achieve by creating this thread. Have a good night and see you in the morning!
On November 16 2011 08:15 Junichi wrote: Somehow I feel this thread isn't really about stream sniping anymore, but about Harstem trying to get an "apology" out of incontrol.
At Harstem: I can't shake the feeling this thread is more about you getting recognition and "clearing" your name, than about discussing whether or not stream sniping is ok, or not.
Being right is nice...
Harstem I really think you shouldn't pay so much attention to what other people think of you.
I feel like it's more of an explanation for his sniping, and trying to get people to know that he in not a cheater, because it seems most people he snipes blindly call him a cheater, making all of the viewers of that stream have a similar opinion. Maybe he just really likes playing with notable people and using their stream as an advertising program.
I don't personally know OP, so I can't speak for him, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until proved otherwise.
On November 16 2011 08:39 Tachion wrote: Getting exposure through stream sniping is like punching a celebrity in the face. Yea you'll get noticed, but no one is going to like you for it.
Punch Justing Bieber in the face and you'll hate the hate of millions of teen girls, but you'll be the hero of millions of cool dudes too.
On November 16 2011 08:16 Cascade wrote: While inc probably shouldnt call you a 100% cheater without proof, maybe you can have som understanding for his side. He sometimes streams, and when he does, he often get matched with snipers. Many of these cheat. There is no way whatsoever to prove if they are cheating or not, yet he knows that a big fraction does.
Ofc inc will feel frustrated, as he wants to show games to his fans, but is annoyed by the stream cheaters. I can perfectly well understand that it is not so easy for him to always go "well, I have no solid proof that this guy doesnt cheat, so I wont be annoyed at him". When he encounters another stream sniper, and thus probably a cheater, he will get annoyed and things like that can slip.
So when you snipe, realise that you mix yourself in with a group of cheaters, and there is no way for anyone to tell if you are cheating or not. I dont think stream sniping is helping the streamer much, actually I just think it blocks him from potentially getting matched with someone really good (snipers are often a bit below the level of the streamer), thus actually making the stream less enjoyable to watch.
So in the end I have no sympathy for you. I have no idea if you cheat or not, and you will never be able to prove either, but even assuming you are not cheating, you are still harming the stream (by blocking him from better opponents, by advertising yourself, and by putting the streamer in a bad mood for facing another sniper/cheater). Why? attention.
If you want attention, (maybe even positive attention, who knows!) then write a guide in the strategy section with your favourite build,exlplaining all its ins and outs, and attach a replay pack. I assume you are high master (or GM) if you get matched with inc, so you should be able to do that in a way that help a lot of people. gl.
Hi Cascade, I get your point, but I still feel like he shouldn't just blindly state before the game even really started "you stream cheat" that is all I wanted to achieve by creating this thread. Have a good night and see you in the morning!
You steal streamers time by sniping him because you are probably much worse than him.You stole stream watchers time because maybe he gets matched against another progamer but instead a stream sniper self promoterlow level player.I think you are as bad as stream snipers and you will never be recognized as a good player. If you really want to play versus pro players join online tournaments.Eventually you will get matched against pro gamers and if you win against them without sniping bullshit you will get recognized.
On November 16 2011 08:39 Tachion wrote: Getting exposure through stream sniping is like punching a celebrity in the face. Yea you'll get noticed, but no one is going to like you for it.
Punch Justing Bieber in the face and you'll hate the hate of millions of teen girls, but you'll be the hero of millions of cool dudes too.
Well, you could punch incontrol in the face and see how that works out for you...
I think the problem with it if you do it multiple times in row. It's ok to watch for the first couple of games but after that it gets a little boring to watch the streamer play the same person over and over so you end up directly impacting the streamer's viewer count which could be a significant part of their income.
Also if the streamer is looking for some good practice games they'll likely be after a little variety, if they wanted a practice partner they would have asked someone on their friends list, having to go up against you over and over is not ideal practice.
I think that stream snipping is always going to viewed in a negative light because of the negative icons we have in this community, so be ready for the hate you are going to get, you are taking that on yourself.
I honestly think it's not so bad to stream snipe a player once, close the stream, and just play the game. Don't tell them you sniped, just play the game and see if you win or lose.
On November 16 2011 08:54 KimJongIlJr wrote: Sounds like you're trying to justify what you do to yourself. If you feel that way, maybe you shouldn't do it.
No, he's just saying that just because he stream snipes to play with pros does not mean he's a cheater.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
On November 16 2011 07:17 Ulquiorra wrote: Put yourself in the shoes of your opponent. If someone makes it obvious that they intentionally are trying to snipe you then you know that at some point they had the stream open, would you trust a stranger to be admirable and shut off the stream? There are scenarios in which there is no cheating going on but the possibility of you cheating ruins any publicity you receive. Try other ways to receive attention and publicity.
Hi Ulquiorra, I completely understand that there is some kind of distrust towards people who stream snipe, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
So people stream for many reasons, revenue, fun, publicity.
You stream snipe (abusing the way ladder should work but technically not breaking any rules) for whatever reasons benefit you despite the negative effect on the streamer.
They call you out for cheating thus hopefully sabotaging any gains from your sniping and possible cheating. fair no?>
If I was a pro player I would not care if i was sniped or stream-cheated. I'd let my superior skills overcome the handicap. Instead of thinking "hurrrr this guy is stream cheating blarg" I would just play a super solid build. "yeah, you know exactly what I'm doing, but it doesn't matter, because I'm going to crush you straight up anyways" would be my philosophy. Forget trying cute tactics or trying to catch them by surprise in this situation. Is it annoying and lame? Yes, but that's the ladder in general. If they don't want to deal with it then play some custom games.
You are incredibly ignorant. Yes it's ok to snipe somebody once, but don't fucking keep doing it. What I saw you doing is sniping incontrol today over and over. It's annoying playing the same person all the freaking time. Stream cheating and stream sniping can be just as annoying to a streamer. I understand you're trying to get publicity, but you're not getting good publicity. Everyone thinks you're just the annoying fucking wanna be stream sniper. Is that the type of publicity you want? I guess if you want to be known as that annoying stream sniper that's cool. But there are already hundreds of other people that do that so you're not special or original.
Everyone that streams knows the risks. If you are streaming ladder or a tournament, it is for your viewers and for yourself. If someone decides to stream cheat you, then the only person you can blame is yourself. People are greedy, that is just the way the world works.
If you have ~500+ viewers and you have a name in the community, what is more important to you: risking your tournament results or providing entertainment for your viewers? That is something you must choose for yourself.
However, there are those people that are proven cheaters, and you can adjust your stream accordingly. Desrow has a hilarious tiny screen he puts up as an overlay for the stream cheaters. Just do that IMO and then upload the replay if people want to see the game. You could even make a youtube video out of it and analyze your play. Make something positive out of something negative and you will be a happier person :D
On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote: Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
I love it when people call into question "professionalism"
I am a professional. I stream for money and to extend my social-reach. When someone spams my game with their twitter, says "sup guys" to my stream and then complains when I call them a "stream cheater" I have no regrets.
if that makes me unprofessional so be it.
he did pretty much the same thing with him :D I agree with you on this one
On November 16 2011 08:24 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I get streamsniped sometimes, which is amusing because I am in Gold league. It's actually quite a problem for me, makes the matches much tougher because as a gold league player my play is very limited in terms of what I can reliably do so I am far more predictable if people have watched my stream and gotten an idea of my playstyle. I don't really begrudge people for doing it but for a time I did run a short 1 minute delay on my stream to prevent it from happening because it was causing me difficulties at the time.
Hi Totalbiscuit, I get that it sometimes is annoying, but is it a good enough reason to just blindly call someone a stream cheater?
It's a very easy get-out that I've used to excuse my losses in the past. The fact is that you were already tuned into the stream, the other person is relying entirely on an honour system by which you turn the stream off while playing. For me, it would be ridiculously easy to stream-cheat, I play entirely in a window, I don't even need a second monitor. Are you remotely surprised that people call you out on it?
I fully agree with Geoff, there is no way to know that you aren't streamcheating, you're already more than halfway there by just having the stream up in order to snipe him in the first place. He is well within his rights to accuse you or anyone else of streamcheating in that situation, why shouldn't he? Anyone who thinks saying so is unprofessional is living in a fucking fantasy world and is not in the position to make such accusations.
TBH, this will be solved when Justin implements it's proper delay system, the app they currently have doesn't run with Xsplit as far as I can figure out and Xsplit's delay system is unreliable at present. Simply putting a 1 minute delay on will prevent sniping.
It is also a problem with Battle.net, there is no way it should allow you to play the same person over and over again on the ladder, there should be a cooldown period that prevents it from happening after a game has concluded.
On November 16 2011 09:13 TheCreature wrote: You are incredibly ignorant. Yes it's ok to snipe somebody once, but don't fucking keep doing it. What I saw you doing is sniping incontrol today over and over. It's annoying playing the same person all the freaking time. Stream cheating and stream sniping can be just as annoying to a streamer. I understand you're trying to get publicity, but you're not getting good publicity. Everyone thinks you're just the annoying fucking wanna be stream sniper. Is that the type of publicity you want? I guess if you want to be known as that annoying stream sniper that's cool. But there are already hundreds of other people that do that so you're not special or original.
If you are stream sniping to play top players just be happy when you get the game you want. No need to show off to the streamer or the spectators, that will just leave a bad impression and arouse suspicion.
Honestly? The best solution is for Blizzard to implement a system that allows people to block players they don't want to play against. It's not unreasonable to allow a player to prevent themselves from having to play against a certain player on ladder.
System works like this: -You can block player matchups of up to N number of players total. (Maybe 10 or so) -You can only block player matchups of up to N number of players per 24 hours (Maybe 10 or so)
This doesn't do any damage to the ladder system, and it heavily cuts down on repeated stream sniping and stream cheating
There's a significant association between snipers and cheaters. As such while not all snipers cheat, sniping will suggest you are cheating. Thus, streamers are likely to think you cheat.
This comes down to your choice. If you are sniping to have fun and challenge yourself against streamers, and don't care that you frustrate them or what they say about you by all means go ahead.
If you're trying to develop a reputation in StarCraft 2 and the association between snipers and cheaters could be damaging, don't snipe.
On November 16 2011 09:22 RodYan wrote: Honestly? The best solution is for Blizzard to implement a system that allows people to block players they don't want to play against. It's not unreasonable to allow a player to prevent themselves from having to play against a certain player on ladder.
System works like this: -You can block player matchups of up to N number of players total. (Maybe 10 or so) -You can only block player matchups of up to N number of players per 24 hours (Maybe 10 or so)
This doesn't do any damage to the ladder system, and it heavily cuts down on repeated stream sniping and stream cheating
Do you seriously think that letting Blizzard focus on something thats an issue for maybe 100 people out the hundreds of thousands playing the game a good idea?
Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
So you want respect for you and your fellow stream snipers. How do you know that the other stream snipers are not stream cheating? There is no way to know if one is stream cheating, not even if he writes a post and says that he plays fair. It's like using a non-detectable hack (just an example) that matches you only against famous people and has an option for maphack. Nothing wrong with using it to get matched against the cool people right?
Snipers want respect for winning good people? Go stream yourself beating them and let people see that you are indeed only sniping.
If you want to play a pro, send them a pm and see if they're willing to play you during one of the times they'd normally ladder. If they wont play you, then ladder when you know they're laddering and hope you get lucky. Otherwise what you're doing is questionable, and I find no fault in inControl's way of thinking. If I was a popular player and some random dude was piggybacking on my popularity I'd have no qualms letting my stream (and theirs) know what I felt about what they were doing. I'm sure you're more than welcome to sponsor a pro to get the same exposure as well. In fact, let me just say that if you were doing this all in an "honorable" way, you'd just sponsor the guy in the first place, or pay for a showmatch or something.
When you're at the top (in either skill or popularity) people want to bring you down, simply human nature. It's also human nature to want to stay there, so being suspicious of activities like this is natural.
As many people have already pointed out, the problem here is that there's no way for people to know whether you're cheating or just sniping. Since so many stream snipers do also cheat, and most of them (except Deezer) deny that they're cheating, there's reason for streamers to believe you when also deny it. If you think about it from their point of view, there's no reason for them (or even us) to believe you when you say that you're not cheating, and quite a few reasons to assume that you are, in fact, cheating.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
It boggles my mind that you can even say this with a straight-face.
My car is parked outside, I guess it's ok to steal it, after all, I did let you see it.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
It boggles my mind that you can even say this with a straight-face.
My car is parked outside, I guess it's ok to steal it, after all, I did let you see it.
But your car is your property. What you're doing in game (information) stops being your property when you stream it to public.
You cannot say "everybody, come watch my stream EXCEPT IF YOUR MY OPPONENT YOU FILTHY CHEATER".
I'm really amazed at the flagrant disregard for this persons career. Calling him a stream-cheater because he snipes can be very detrimental to his future, if he were to want to become a pro. Basically Incontrols argument comes down to a few different things, because he's changed it a couple times in this thread.
At first his argument was that since there's a likelihood and easy gap to jump from being a sniper, to a cheater, that it's okay to call someone a cheater without evidence of them doing so.
Then he argued that it's okay to call him a cheater because he spammed the chat in-game with his twitter, and was addressing incontrol's viewers, saying that he sniped.
Then he agreed with another poster, who said to take things from incontrols perspective; that he has to deal with the annoyance of steam-cheaters, and thus, because he has to deal with this annoyance it's okay to call someone who doesn't cheat, a cheater.
How are any of these things justification of calling another player, who's at the top, and on a team, and could possibly have a career in starcraft, a cheater, and possibly slander their name and reputation for the future?
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
It boggles my mind that you can even say this with a straight-face.
My car is parked outside, I guess it's ok to steal it, after all, I did let you see it.
But your car is your property. What you're doing in game (information) stops being your property when you stream it to public.
You cannot say "everybody, come watch my stream EXCEPT IF YOUR MY OPPONENT YOU FILTHY CHEATER".
Honestly, I think you're crazy. At best you are grasping at technicalities, trying to play devils advocate or just simply utterly amoral. It doesn't matter if the person is streaming or not, it is not an open invitation to fucking maphack him, which is exactly what you are doing if you watch his stream. The net result is IDENTICAL, it doesn't matter if you are actually using a hack, the intent and the result are exactly the same. So let's dispense with the cute analogies and call it what it is, cheating.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
It boggles my mind that you can even say this with a straight-face.
My car is parked outside, I guess it's ok to steal it, after all, I did let you see it.
But your car is your property. What you're doing in game (information) stops being your property when you stream it to public.
You cannot say "everybody, come watch my stream EXCEPT IF YOUR MY OPPONENT YOU FILTHY CHEATER".
Honestly, I think you're crazy. At best you are grasping at technicalities, trying to play devils advocate or just simply utterly amoral. It doesn't matter if the person is streaming or not, it is not an open invitation to fucking maphack him, which is exactly what you are doing if you watch his stream. The net result is IDENTICAL, it doesn't matter if you are actually using a hack, the intent and the result are exactly the same. So let's dispense with the cute analogies and call it what it is, cheating.
Err, yeah I think you're being trolled TB. His argument is asinine, and a de-rail.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
It boggles my mind that you can even say this with a straight-face.
My car is parked outside, I guess it's ok to steal it, after all, I did let you see it.
But your car is your property. What you're doing in game (information) stops being your property when you stream it to public.
You cannot say "everybody, come watch my stream EXCEPT IF YOUR MY OPPONENT YOU FILTHY CHEATER".
Honestly, I think you're crazy. At best you are grasping at technicalities, trying to play devils advocate or just simply utterly amoral. It doesn't matter if the person is streaming or not, it is not an open invitation to fucking maphack him, which is exactly what you are doing if you watch his stream. The net result is IDENTICAL, it doesn't matter if you are actually using a hack, the intent and the result are exactly the same. So let's dispense with the cute analogies and call it what it is, cheating.
worst part about people who think like that...they refuse to listen to reason, and if you somehow convince them then 10 more will take their place. its a sad world.
On November 16 2011 06:41 Harstem wrote: EDIT: I only snipe streamers once, if I get matched up with streamers multiple times in a row(while laddering) it is not my fault, but the system's Dear TeamLiquid, most of you guys will not know so let me introduce myself: I am Kevin "Harstem" de Koning a young dutch protoss player who likes to stream snipe famous players every now and then.
When the game was released a lot of players started a stream. To get more exposure, get money from commercials, to have fun with the viewers, interact with the community etc. One downside of streaming is the fact that the opponent can easily open your stream and see what you are doing. This is really annoying for the streamers and even though it sometimes is fun to watch it also annoys the viewers. The only way to stop this is by either delaying the stream a few minutes or by turning off the stream.
The reason I made this thread is to show people the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating. As I stated above stream-cheating is really annoying and people who win games by stream-cheating should not deserve any credit whatsoever(in my opinion). Stream sniping on the other hand is something completely different. When a person stream snipes, he tries to match a professional/well known player by watching their stream and try to search at the same time. If the MMR of the player sniping and the proffesional/well known player is the same or close to the same there is a high probability to find the streamer!
Instead of playing versus average joe you are playing versus Incontrol, Idra, Kas, HuK etc. Unfortunately not all streamers can appreciate it and sometimes they even falsely accuse you of stream-cheating. This is the opposite of what you want, because when I stream snipe I do this to get free good publicity while playing versus extremely good players. The feeling of winning while your opponent is having 5000+ viewers is really hard to describe, but it feels damn good.
What I am trying to say is: If someone is stream sniping this doesn't necessarily mean they are stream cheating. Lately I am getting more and more streamers who are saying "don't mind this guy, he is a cheater" without even knowing me. This isn't only putting me in a bad daylight, but it also affects my play. When my opponent tells me "u streamcheat" I scout less, because I know that if I find his proxy pylon or his hidden gate he will be like "See this guy is a cheater, fucking scrub".
I hope people learn to appreciate me and my fellow stream snipers more and stop falsely accusing me and others of cheating when we are not.
Have a nice day,
Kevin "Harstem" de Koning
Don't be to harsh on my english please <3 tyty
I could not word my feelings any better than Uncultured did in his post
On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote: Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
Just read through the thread - it was interesting to say the least to see some varying opinions on the subject. Some people say there is an assumed risk when you stream, and you almost "deserve it", or seem to carry an attitude that is part of being famous. I do not believe that. People who play this game seriously and work hard to improve to become the best don't deserve to have their stream abused. Many of those same people stream not only to benefit themselves, but benefit others. It's an added pressure to know that people are out there using their stream against them, and it's things like this that decrease interaction between pro players and their fans - Destiny's stream would be an excellent example of this.
With that said - the inherent flaw is within the streaming process itself. When there is a delay, that should definitely help to remedy some of the problems. It would still be possible to stream snipe a little bit if one was aware there was a couple of minutes of delay, but hopefully it will be more difficult. In the least, it would remove the element of stream cheating, and make stream sniping more of an annoyance than a full blown frustration of sorts.
Finally, in terms of ethics, whether stream sniping is wrong or right: I believe the harm comes into play when you abuse another players' hard work to further your own. Obviously playing against players that are considered "famous" is exciting, and beating them is more exciting. When one uses that fame to boost their own and are almost addicted to that feeling of power, it is not entirely unreasonable to believe that they wouldn't be able having that stream on to attempt to beat said player. After all, from your original post you've made it evident that you enjoy the attention you get from not only playing, but beating these pros. You simply cannot blame them for being skeptical of your own moral decisions outside of the game. Beyond that, these players already constantly get stream sniped, harassed, and stream cheater upon so really there is no reason for them to distinguish you from players such as Deezer who contribute to the negative stereotypes of these types of behaviors. I cannot say 100% whether you are cheating or not, and within that logical reasoning, lie the seeds of mistrust and contempt from other players. So why do that to yourself? The fame you get is not worth the dignity you are sacrificing.
The moral of the story: While I cannot prove you are, or are not, cheating, you are lumping yourself in with a group that is. That is the cost of stream sniping in general. If you are ranked high enough, you will be getting placed against these players naturally. If you are able to compete, you will slowly gather respect among the community in a more natural way. From there, your hard work and skills will become noticed, and rather than being an obnoxious outsider that is attempting to get his 20 minutes of fame through other peoples' work, your hard work and skills will be noticed by others because you are making a name for yourself. If your end goal is to be noticed, it's better to do it through hard work and skills and model someone like Trimaster or Minigun, rather than be lumped into the same group as players like CombatEx and Deezer no? Think about it that way.
Good luck regardless - don't let fame go to your head. Being famous is actually a lot work in maintaining composure and appearances. It's really not worth the hassle, nor the trouble.
On November 16 2011 09:50 Uncultured wrote: I'm really amazed at the flagrant disregard for this persons career. Calling him a stream-cheater because he snipes can be very detrimental to his future, if he were to want to become a pro. Basically Incontrols argument comes down to a few different things, because he's changed it a couple times in this thread.
At first his argument was that since there's a likelihood and easy gap to jump from being a sniper, to a cheater, that it's okay to call someone a cheater without evidence of them doing so.
Then he argued that it's okay to call him a cheater because he spammed the chat in-game with his twitter, and was addressing incontrol's viewers, saying that he sniped.
Then he agreed with another poster, who said to take things from incontrols perspective; that he has to deal with the annoyance of steam-cheaters, and thus, because he has to deal with this annoyance it's okay to call someone who doesn't cheat, a cheater.
How are any of these things justification of calling another player, who's at the top, and on a team, and could possibly have a career in starcraft, a cheater, and possibly slander their name and reputation for the future?
First of all, you're grossly taking Incontrol's statements out of context (and no, he didn't change his opinion, he just said the same thing in many different ways to clarify it). What he actually said was that if someone stream-snipes, there's no real reason for him, or anyone, to assume that the person isn't also stream-cheating. They can't just say, "Oh, you have no proof that I was cheating," since it's impossible to get proof. The burden lies on the sniper to prove they aren't cheating, and if they don't want to deal with it, they shouldn't snipe.
Secondly, I seriously doubt that this will hurt his career, if he decides to make one in starcraft -- I think you're placing too much weight on a single accusation. Incontrol didn't go out of the way to attack him -- he in fact, did not post about it anywhere. If the accusee hadn't brought it up, I know that I personally would never have known about it. Do you really think that months or a year later, some team wthat is considering signing on Harstem here is going to look back and think, "Oh, Incontrol called him a cheater once on his stream. Better not hire him after all"? Of course not. They'll probably take a look at his record of sniping, but if there's no proof that Incontrol was right when he said that, then they'll dismiss it.
Stream sniping is completely lame. I've been accused of doing it before but haven't (I'm always streaming) and have been stream sniped myself by Deezer till he gave up losing. Theres a huge advantage to stream sniping because you can think of your gameplan versus that player on the maps you have banned. There is a reason you stream snipe, because its easier.
Stream sniping is fine if the sniper is honest, but really if they cheese and produce bad games, it's still annoying. Seeing Destiny vs CombatEx is really boring, even if omg troll fight. The games suck whether CombatEx is cheating or not. The worst part is that he is.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
This precisely, well said.
I also don't think that argument condones stream cheaters either, at all.
On November 16 2011 08:24 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I get streamsniped sometimes, which is amusing because I am in Gold league. It's actually quite a problem for me, makes the matches much tougher because as a gold league player my play is very limited in terms of what I can reliably do so I am far more predictable if people have watched my stream and gotten an idea of my playstyle. I don't really begrudge people for doing it but for a time I did run a short 1 minute delay on my stream to prevent it from happening because it was causing me difficulties at the time.
Hi Totalbiscuit, I get that it sometimes is annoying, but is it a good enough reason to just blindly call someone a stream cheater?
No it's not a good enough reason for calling someone a stream cheater, however I don't really see how you can just assume everyone should give you the benefit of the doubt that you are honest with your sniping. With something like stream sniping the only thing we really have to go off of in terms of evidence is "You stream cheat." "No I don't.". Unfortunately that's not much to go on so people tend to have their own personal opinions. It is unfair to be called a cheater when you snipe someone's stream but I can't really understand how you don't see why people aren't going to give you the benefit of the doubt, especially with someone like IncontroL and his past experiences with stream snipers.
exactly my thoughts on this.
I mean, yes, you might be that one good non-cheating guy out there, however, Incontrol is right when he says that the world isn't as nice as you think it is. The facts are, people that stream snipe can also stream cheat very easily (just leave the stream open, anyways, no one knows what's going on in your computer, right?).
Imagine this, you are in a room with another guy sitting in the room and you just brought your lunch. You leave 2 mins to go buy something to drink with it, you come back and the lunch is gone, along with the guy. Well, shit that's a bummer!! you may rage a bit, might ruin your day and make you wonder about where is humanity going nowadays, and maybe you will even beat up your partner more than usual at your karate session that afternoon , but, other than that, your just gonna buy another one and be done with it . However, ever gonna leave your lunch alone again in the same situation? Hell no!!!! (I know, maybe not the best example, but it's the best I could come up with in 5 mins to illustrate my point. DISCLAMER: I am in no way saying that a ladder game for a pro is his lunch or like his lunch, take the example for what it is. With that said, don't go stealing people's lunch either ^^)
My point is, stream sniping and stream cheating may be different, buy they are related enough that people will never trust you. You stated your motivations on why you stream snipe, but can you seriously blame anyone of labeling you as a cheater when, in their experience, 95% of those snipers also cheat and that absolutely noone can really verify what you are really doing? I know, you are gonna tell me that saying that you cheat when you don't is not cool, and it's not. However, if you want to have recognition that way then you better be ready when noone will trust you, unless you stream yourself playing without cheating, or something. If you don't want this to happen, you can always try to hit those high level players normally, by having a high enough MMR so it's not only that you COULD play against them if you timed yourself well enough, but more like that they WILL hit you when you are in there, because you are at their level anyways (maybe you already are, but it seems to me that if you were hitting a pro every time you ladder, then you would not be sniping). In that case, no one will dare say anything about you.
On November 16 2011 09:50 Uncultured wrote: I'm really amazed at the flagrant disregard for this persons career. Calling him a stream-cheater because he snipes can be very detrimental to his future, if he were to want to become a pro. Basically Incontrols argument comes down to a few different things, because he's changed it a couple times in this thread.
At first his argument was that since there's a likelihood and easy gap to jump from being a sniper, to a cheater, that it's okay to call someone a cheater without evidence of them doing so.
Then he argued that it's okay to call him a cheater because he spammed the chat in-game with his twitter, and was addressing incontrol's viewers, saying that he sniped.
Then he agreed with another poster, who said to take things from incontrols perspective; that he has to deal with the annoyance of steam-cheaters, and thus, because he has to deal with this annoyance it's okay to call someone who doesn't cheat, a cheater.
How are any of these things justification of calling another player, who's at the top, and on a team, and could possibly have a career in starcraft, a cheater, and possibly slander their name and reputation for the future?
First of all, you're grossly taking Incontrol's statements out of context (and no, he didn't change his opinion, he just said the same thing in many different ways to clarify it). What he actually said was that if someone stream-snipes, there's no real reason for him, or anyone, to assume that the person isn't also stream-cheating. They can't just say, "Oh, you have no proof that I was cheating," since it's impossible to get proof. The burden lies on the sniper to prove they aren't cheating, and if they don't want to deal with it, they shouldn't snipe.
Secondly, I seriously doubt that this will hurt his career, if he decides to make one in starcraft -- I think you're placing too much weight on a single accusation. Incontrol didn't go out of the way to attack him -- he in fact, did not post about it anywhere. If the accusee hadn't brought it up, I know that I personally would never have known about it. Do you really think that months or a year later, some team wthat is considering signing on Harstem here is going to look back and think, "Oh, Incontrol called him a cheater once on his stream. Better not hire him after all"? Of course not. They'll probably take a look at his record of sniping, but if there's no proof that Incontrol was right when he said that, then they'll dismiss it.
Requote from me earlier in the thread:
"Also, don't take this as me jumping down your throat, I actually have no idea what went on in that game. For all I know all you said was "He's probably cheating, because he's stream sniping" in the game, and that isn't an accusation that someone should really even worry about. It's the idea, from what you said earlier in the thread, that everyone who stream snipes is undoubtedly going to make the jump to stream cheater that I take issue with."
I get it. I'm just saying that calling someone a cheater, just because other people cheat, is incredibly fallacious. I'm not arguing that people shouldn't be ready to accept the fact that they'll be called a cheater by people making fallacious arguments.
I'm not even saying it's wrong for complete strangers to do that. I'm just disappointed that people with actual clout, and fans, like Incontrol, who's words may have an effect, are also saying it.
On November 16 2011 10:39 Broodwurst wrote: So there's stream cheating, which of course is bad. On the other hand there's stream sniping, i.e. abusing someone elses popularity to boost your ego.
I see the difference but i don't see how any of those is a good thing.
stream sniping can get you a game vs a pro...its good practice if you actually give a damn about improving, but yeah most do it for the 15 minutes of fame.
I only have one big problem with stream sniping. You’re stealing games from other people who also want to play the pros but don’t feel right about stream sniping. That alone is, to me, a selfish enough act that you shouldn’t do it, but it’s up to you of course.
Just don’t expect people to think it’s fine, because it’s certainly morally ambiguous whether you would never consider cheating or not.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents.
I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly.
For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
well, stream cheating doesn't break any rule, so if streamers don't like cheaters, they could delay the streams by 1 min or more.... lol. that is the only way to do it.
but i agree, streamers should know the risk, you can't call somebody a cheater when you let him watch your stream.
On November 16 2011 10:51 HellionDrop wrote: well, stream cheating doesn't break any rule, so if streamers don't like cheaters, they could delay the streams by 1 min or more.... lol. that is the only way to do it.
but i agree, streamers should know the risk, you can't call somebody a cheater when you let him watch your stream.
The problem is that a lot of them like to talk/interact with the viewers on stream, and a delay makes that much harder to do. In order to avoid stream cheating, they would have to make some sacrifices that I think they feel they shouldn't have to make.
Nothing wrong with stream sniping as long as you're not bugging the streamer, aka sniping them multiple games in a row (especially if they've asked you to stop). Just as long as you pause/close the stream while you're playing then I think it's fine. The reason you're probably getting so much flack is b/c of known stream cheaters such as combatex and deezer.
On November 16 2011 10:51 HellionDrop wrote: well, stream cheating doesn't break any rule, so if streamers don't like cheaters, they could delay the streams by 1 min or more.... lol. that is the only way to do it.
but i agree, streamers should know the risk, you can't call somebody a cheater when you let him watch your stream.
except that really solves nothing. most streams ARE delayed....does that stop anything at all? lolno. all it does it screw up commercials and make talking with viewers harder than needed.
Sure stream snipers are not necessarily stream cheaters, but it usually is the case, so I associate them together.
You are opening his stream to watch him search, thus you're more likely to cheat than someone who only has sc2 open. That's just logic/how people think. If you don't like it then just play normally. Just my 2 cents... If you're going to get around the blizzard ladder system then you should expect some negative consequences.
If you don't want to be called a cheater then stop stream sniping people. They don't care if they're ignorant by calling you a stream sniper, they're pissed off that you are stream sniping them. You said you want free publicity, well by stream sniping you get bad free publicity. Learn to react to your environment instead of complaining to people expecting them to change and for you to get everything you want just because you think it's ethically correct.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents.
I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly.
For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
You missed the main analogy that he was referring to. "Stealing meds" was an aside that doesnt really need focusing on, the main analogy that you should have addressed as:
Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions.
Perhaps stealing is still too harsh of a comparison for you since it involves literally taking from someone else. A better example, then, would be: Following your logic, it's ok for someone to stalk (or constantly harass with phone calls would be closer to the idea of stream sniping) a girl simply because it is an assumed risk of walking around in public for everyone to see, looking as sexy as she does.
I dont care about an occasional stream snipe. Using the example above, of course that girls gonna get hit on by some guys if she goes to a bar. However, constant harassment of a pro streamer should be looked down upon just as constant harassment of a girl could land you a restraining order.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
I agree with his statement wholesomely. This is the internet and people don't have much at stake regarding their personal image. I am sure everyone has had a bad game or talked trash on the internet guarded by that you actually don't have to physically know the person. Stream sniping/cheating is all one in the same just your not cheating the player in game but rather the matchmaking system. Overall the people who do Stream sniping/cheating just try to get whatever advantage they can and nobody on the internet has any sense of integrity. Regardless of age,race,religion, etc.. etc.. having faith in the internet and people here is a bad idea. More so if the player is exploiting the matchmaking system to get in the same game with the player don't expect the player to hold you to the same level of respect as others. Sniping and cheating its all one in the same its very distasteful way to exploit the game and its inner workings. Hopefully blizzard can come up with something to remedy this whole issue rather than taking the back seat on this.
On November 16 2011 10:51 HellionDrop wrote: well, stream cheating doesn't break any rule, so if streamers don't like cheaters, they could delay the streams by 1 min or more.... lol. that is the only way to do it.
but i agree, streamers should know the risk, you can't call somebody a cheater when you let him watch your stream.
Stream cheaters and snipers are what happen if you're high profile and streaming. It's not a risk, it's a given and streamers know they have to live with it. Honestly I don't think it's worth delaying the stream to avoid. Streamers are giving up some of their privacy in exchange for cash. That's their choice, you take the good witht he bad.
HOWEVER, we, the viewing community should condem snipers and cheaters being being the selfish, self centered prats they are.
Cheating is obviously bad. In my opinion sniping is also bad. Snipers are like some prat who jumps up on stage with Billy Connolly and starts telling yo mama jokes. Fuck off, we're not here for you, get off the fucking stage.
Build your own following. Start streaming yourself or get involved. Don't try and build a following by being that annoying guy who snipes streamers.
On November 16 2011 11:04 hkf wrote: Put a delay on your stream, wow how hard problem solved.
But a lot of streamers like to talk or otherwise interact with their viewers, and you can't do that with a delay (or at least a delay that's long enough to make a difference). From their point of view, that's a sacrifice they shouldn't have to make.
I like to annoy people by continuously sniping them on the ladder while also shamelessly plugging myself and talking to their stream chat while in-game. I limit the range of opponents they can face and ultimately lower the player variance they can expect. I also limit their practice to one race. I put myself in the exact same group as avid cheaters, hackers and general assholes and then get annoyed when the person I am sniping groups me with them. Hear my complaints!
I see Harstem on stream now and then. Sometimes he comes to the chat and talks a bit afterwards. He seems like a nice and mannered guy who just wants to play games and interact. Hope you get your own stream going one day.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents.
I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly.
For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
You missed the main analogy that he was referring to. "Stealing meds" was an aside that doesnt really need focusing on, the main analogy that you should have addressed as:
Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions.
Perhaps stealing is still too harsh of a comparison for you since it involves literally taking from someone else. A better example, then, would be: Following your logic, it's ok for someone to stalk (or constantly harass with phone calls would be closer to the idea of stream sniping) a girl simply because it is an assumed risk of walking around in public for everyone to see, looking as sexy as she does.
I dont care about an occasional stream snipe. Using the example above, of course that girls gonna get hit on by some guys if she goes to a bar. However, constant harassment of a pro streamer should be looked down upon just as constant harassment of a girl could land you a restraining order.
No, stalking a girl is illegal. It is also illegal to expose yourself in public, which I guess in this example would be the equivalent to the streamer, if the 'stalker' is the sniper. It's a bad example. What about the open-faced poker player ?
About the repetitive 'harassment' of the streamers, I would be happy to see Blizzard implement something where you don't play the same person over and over again. But really, that's independent of sniping or stream 'cheating'. I thought they did put something in, but I'm not sure about that.
Further, not to criticize Destiny, but in a couple of his recent Youtube videos, I think about teaching someone a cheesy terran build, he is basically watching someone else's stream during a ladder game, giving them advice on how to play. This is kind of the opposite end of this whole spectrum, in this case the streamer is getting benefit from viewers. How do you guys feel about this ? Because it seems if you frown upon the stream "cheating", this should fall into the same category. Again, not to call out Destiny, as I find him entertaining and tune in his stream quite often, but if he's against this 'stream cheating', then it seems he's hopped on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
edit:
For the record, I don't have much problem with this video. My question is, do you ?
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents.
I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly.
For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
You missed the main analogy that he was referring to. "Stealing meds" was an aside that doesnt really need focusing on, the main analogy that you should have addressed as:
Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions.
Perhaps stealing is still too harsh of a comparison for you since it involves literally taking from someone else. A better example, then, would be: Following your logic, it's ok for someone to stalk (or constantly harass with phone calls would be closer to the idea of stream sniping) a girl simply because it is an assumed risk of walking around in public for everyone to see, looking as sexy as she does.
I dont care about an occasional stream snipe. Using the example above, of course that girls gonna get hit on by some guys if she goes to a bar. However, constant harassment of a pro streamer should be looked down upon just as constant harassment of a girl could land you a restraining order.
No, stalking a girl is illegal. It is also illegal to expose yourself in public, which I guess in this example would be the equivalent to the streamer, if the 'stalker' is the sniper. It's a bad example. What about the open-faced poker player ?
About the repetitive 'harassment' of the streamers, I would be happy to see Blizzard implement something where you don't play the same person over and over again. But really, that's independent of sniping or stream 'cheating'. I thought they did put something in, but I'm not sure about that.
Further, not to criticize Destiny, but in a couple of his recent Youtube videos, I think about teaching someone a cheesy terran build, he is basically watching someone else's stream during a ladder game, giving them advice on how to play. This is kind of the opposite end of this whole spectrum, in this case the streamer is getting benefit from viewers. How do you guys feel about this ? Because it seems if you frown upon the stream "cheating", this should fall into the same category. Again, not to call out Destiny, as I find him entertaining and tune in his stream quite often, but if he's against this 'stream cheating', then it seems he's hopped on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
I think you missed a crucial part of his analogy -- the girl isn't "exposing" herself in public -- she's just minding her own business, walking in public. She has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, because she's attractive (because she naturally is), the stalker starts to stalk her. And I don't see why stalking being illegal is relevant -- it's immoral, and just because stream cheating isn't illegal doesn't mean it's not also immortal.
While you will often play the same player multiple times just naturally (since you're both ending your previous game at the same time), stream sniping will often cause this to happen (when it otherwise wouldn't have). It can sometimes be independent of stream sniping, but isn't necessarily.
The difference here is that the person gave Destiny permission to do this. Stream snipers/cheaters do not receive permission from the people they're playing (and in fact, they're often asked to stop). Back to the girl analogy, Destiny in this case would be the girl's boyfriend. It's okay for him to have pictures of her, or send her love letters, or whatever, because he has her implied permission (by the fact that she continues to date him). The stalker, however, is in the wrong, simply because he does not have her permission to do such things.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents.
I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly.
For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
You missed the main analogy that he was referring to. "Stealing meds" was an aside that doesnt really need focusing on, the main analogy that you should have addressed as:
Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions.
Perhaps stealing is still too harsh of a comparison for you since it involves literally taking from someone else. A better example, then, would be: Following your logic, it's ok for someone to stalk (or constantly harass with phone calls would be closer to the idea of stream sniping) a girl simply because it is an assumed risk of walking around in public for everyone to see, looking as sexy as she does.
I dont care about an occasional stream snipe. Using the example above, of course that girls gonna get hit on by some guys if she goes to a bar. However, constant harassment of a pro streamer should be looked down upon just as constant harassment of a girl could land you a restraining order.
No, stalking a girl is illegal. It is also illegal to expose yourself in public, which I guess in this example would be the equivalent to the streamer, if the 'stalker' is the sniper. It's a bad example. What about the open-faced poker player ?
About the repetitive 'harassment' of the streamers, I would be happy to see Blizzard implement something where you don't play the same person over and over again. But really, that's independent of sniping or stream 'cheating'. I thought they did put something in, but I'm not sure about that.
Further, not to criticize Destiny, but in a couple of his recent Youtube videos, I think about teaching someone a cheesy terran build, he is basically watching someone else's stream during a ladder game, giving them advice on how to play. This is kind of the opposite end of this whole spectrum, in this case the streamer is getting benefit from viewers. How do you guys feel about this ? Because it seems if you frown upon the stream "cheating", this should fall into the same category. Again, not to call out Destiny, as I find him entertaining and tune in his stream quite often, but if he's against this 'stream cheating', then it seems he's hopped on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
I think you missed a crucial part of his analogy -- the girl isn't "exposing" herself in public -- she's just minding her own business, walking in public. She has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, because she's attractive (because she naturally is), the stalker starts to stalk her. And I don't see why stalking being illegal is relevant -- it's immoral, and just because stream cheating isn't illegal doesn't mean it's not also immortal.
While you will often play the same player multiple times just naturally (since you're both ending your previous game at the same time), stream sniping will often cause this to happen (when it otherwise wouldn't have). It can sometimes be independent of stream sniping, but isn't necessarily.
The difference here is that the person gave Destiny permission to do this. Stream snipers/cheaters do not receive permission from the people they're playing (and in fact, they're often asked to stop). Back to the girl analogy, Destiny in this case would be the girl's boyfriend. It's okay for him to have pictures of her, or send her love letters, or whatever, because he has her implied permission (by the fact that she continues to date him). The stalker, however, is in the wrong, simply because he does not have her permission to do such things.
First, I completely disagree with the whole analogy comparing a ladder game of Starcraft 2 to stalking a girl on the street. Second, in the Destiny situation, it's not relevant that SHE gave him permission. Did her opponent give him permission ? No, of course not. But do I care ? Not really because this is not much different than Destiny standing over he shoulder giving advice. Something that wouldn't be allowed in tournaments, but for meaningless ladder games, it's fine. Or is it ?
Again, what about the poker analogy ? Is it cheating to look at your poker opponent's cards if he lays them out face-up in front of him ?
if you make a habit of stream sniping there is little doubt that you are willing to trade starcraft cred for that attention you're so desperate for and sometimes that is going to include being called a cheater. I agree that most of them are probably just attention whores rather than attention whores and cheaters, a la deezer, but please don't ask me to pity you over the witch hunts that you are personally responsible for creating via your infantile, desperate behavior
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents.
I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly.
For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
You missed the main analogy that he was referring to. "Stealing meds" was an aside that doesnt really need focusing on, the main analogy that you should have addressed as:
Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions.
Perhaps stealing is still too harsh of a comparison for you since it involves literally taking from someone else. A better example, then, would be: Following your logic, it's ok for someone to stalk (or constantly harass with phone calls would be closer to the idea of stream sniping) a girl simply because it is an assumed risk of walking around in public for everyone to see, looking as sexy as she does.
I dont care about an occasional stream snipe. Using the example above, of course that girls gonna get hit on by some guys if she goes to a bar. However, constant harassment of a pro streamer should be looked down upon just as constant harassment of a girl could land you a restraining order.
No, stalking a girl is illegal. It is also illegal to expose yourself in public, which I guess in this example would be the equivalent to the streamer, if the 'stalker' is the sniper. It's a bad example. What about the open-faced poker player ?
About the repetitive 'harassment' of the streamers, I would be happy to see Blizzard implement something where you don't play the same person over and over again. But really, that's independent of sniping or stream 'cheating'. I thought they did put something in, but I'm not sure about that.
Further, not to criticize Destiny, but in a couple of his recent Youtube videos, I think about teaching someone a cheesy terran build, he is basically watching someone else's stream during a ladder game, giving them advice on how to play. This is kind of the opposite end of this whole spectrum, in this case the streamer is getting benefit from viewers. How do you guys feel about this ? Because it seems if you frown upon the stream "cheating", this should fall into the same category. Again, not to call out Destiny, as I find him entertaining and tune in his stream quite often, but if he's against this 'stream cheating', then it seems he's hopped on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
I think you missed a crucial part of his analogy -- the girl isn't "exposing" herself in public -- she's just minding her own business, walking in public. She has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, because she's attractive (because she naturally is), the stalker starts to stalk her. And I don't see why stalking being illegal is relevant -- it's immoral, and just because stream cheating isn't illegal doesn't mean it's not also immortal.
While you will often play the same player multiple times just naturally (since you're both ending your previous game at the same time), stream sniping will often cause this to happen (when it otherwise wouldn't have). It can sometimes be independent of stream sniping, but isn't necessarily.
The difference here is that the person gave Destiny permission to do this. Stream snipers/cheaters do not receive permission from the people they're playing (and in fact, they're often asked to stop). Back to the girl analogy, Destiny in this case would be the girl's boyfriend. It's okay for him to have pictures of her, or send her love letters, or whatever, because he has her implied permission (by the fact that she continues to date him). The stalker, however, is in the wrong, simply because he does not have her permission to do such things.
First, I completely disagree with the whole analogy comparing a ladder game of Starcraft 2 to stalking a girl on the street. Second, in the Destiny situation, it's not relevant that SHE gave him permission. Did her opponent give him permission ? No, of course not. But do I care ? Not really because this is not much different than Destiny standing over he shoulder giving advice. Something that wouldn't be allowed in tournaments, but for meaningless ladder games, it's fine. Or is it ?
Again, what about the poker analogy ? Is it cheating to look at your poker opponent's cards if he lays them out face-up in front of him ?
First of all, I don't see why the stalking analogy doesn't apply, but oh well.
Why would the opponent's permission matter? We're talking about stream cheating here. It's the streamers permission that matters. You can argue that it's still wrong for different reasons (the opponent probably isn't getting advice for a pro player), but that's a different issue entirely. I'm talking about whether it's wrong to watch someone's stream as you play them, not if it's wrong to give them advice as they play someone else.
It wouldn't be cheating if he your opponent lays his cards face-up on the table. However, it is cheating if he shows them to a friend, and you sneak a look at his cards, which is a much better analogy to the stream cheating. Even if you view it as laying the cards down on the table, it's doing so (so the crowd can see), but asking you not to look. Is it cheating to look when you were asked not to (or when he laid down the cards in a culture in which it's assumed you'd realize that by doing so he's not inviting you to look)? I think so. If you think about it, it's no different from just sneaking a peek at his cards when he's holding them normally -- he just happens to have made them easier to see for his own reasons.
I'm a bit tired right now, so if I didn't explain very well, feel free to ask for clarification.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
I don't see why you need to be so defensive about it and rush to judgment. Sniping and cheating really are two different things, I get that your experience with some players has caused you to be irritated and cynical about this, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
Can you blame the top streamers for having this opinion? How are you supposed to magically tell if someone is cheating or being legit? I would be inclined to not trust the guy that has been sitting there waiting 20+ minutes for my last game to finish, just to get his 15seconds of fame.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents.
I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly.
For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
You missed the main analogy that he was referring to. "Stealing meds" was an aside that doesnt really need focusing on, the main analogy that you should have addressed as:
Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions.
Perhaps stealing is still too harsh of a comparison for you since it involves literally taking from someone else. A better example, then, would be: Following your logic, it's ok for someone to stalk (or constantly harass with phone calls would be closer to the idea of stream sniping) a girl simply because it is an assumed risk of walking around in public for everyone to see, looking as sexy as she does.
I dont care about an occasional stream snipe. Using the example above, of course that girls gonna get hit on by some guys if she goes to a bar. However, constant harassment of a pro streamer should be looked down upon just as constant harassment of a girl could land you a restraining order.
No, stalking a girl is illegal. It is also illegal to expose yourself in public, which I guess in this example would be the equivalent to the streamer, if the 'stalker' is the sniper. It's a bad example. What about the open-faced poker player ?
About the repetitive 'harassment' of the streamers, I would be happy to see Blizzard implement something where you don't play the same person over and over again. But really, that's independent of sniping or stream 'cheating'. I thought they did put something in, but I'm not sure about that.
Further, not to criticize Destiny, but in a couple of his recent Youtube videos, I think about teaching someone a cheesy terran build, he is basically watching someone else's stream during a ladder game, giving them advice on how to play. This is kind of the opposite end of this whole spectrum, in this case the streamer is getting benefit from viewers. How do you guys feel about this ? Because it seems if you frown upon the stream "cheating", this should fall into the same category. Again, not to call out Destiny, as I find him entertaining and tune in his stream quite often, but if he's against this 'stream cheating', then it seems he's hopped on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
I think you missed a crucial part of his analogy -- the girl isn't "exposing" herself in public -- she's just minding her own business, walking in public. She has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, because she's attractive (because she naturally is), the stalker starts to stalk her. And I don't see why stalking being illegal is relevant -- it's immoral, and just because stream cheating isn't illegal doesn't mean it's not also immortal.
While you will often play the same player multiple times just naturally (since you're both ending your previous game at the same time), stream sniping will often cause this to happen (when it otherwise wouldn't have). It can sometimes be independent of stream sniping, but isn't necessarily.
The difference here is that the person gave Destiny permission to do this. Stream snipers/cheaters do not receive permission from the people they're playing (and in fact, they're often asked to stop). Back to the girl analogy, Destiny in this case would be the girl's boyfriend. It's okay for him to have pictures of her, or send her love letters, or whatever, because he has her implied permission (by the fact that she continues to date him). The stalker, however, is in the wrong, simply because he does not have her permission to do such things.
First, I completely disagree with the whole analogy comparing a ladder game of Starcraft 2 to stalking a girl on the street. Second, in the Destiny situation, it's not relevant that SHE gave him permission. Did her opponent give him permission ? No, of course not. But do I care ? Not really because this is not much different than Destiny standing over he shoulder giving advice. Something that wouldn't be allowed in tournaments, but for meaningless ladder games, it's fine. Or is it ?
Again, what about the poker analogy ? Is it cheating to look at your poker opponent's cards if he lays them out face-up in front of him ?
It isn't cheating for you to look at a guys cards if he intentionally shows them to you. However, this isn't quite analogous as you not looking at the guys cards means you need to go out of your way, not the other way around. By streaming, you are showing the public your gameplay, however while playing against someone they are no longer paart of the public, as they are now your opponent.
A much better analogy would be if he was playing poker on TV and you tuned into ESPN in order to see his cards.
As far as I am concerned stream sniping is cheating and breaking the system in the first place. Even disregarding the potential to stream cheat, being able to pick your opponent in an environment that is supposed to match you with someone random of the same skill level gives you a huge advantage. It is much like going to a Casino and playing Blackjack while counting cards; the game is intended to give you a 1/50 chance to get any given card, but if you start counting cards suddenly you know when your chances are much much higher to get any card in particular. For example, if I streamsnipe IdrA I can almost guarantee you he isn't going to 6pool me, whereas random GM zerg just might.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents.
I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly.
For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
You missed the main analogy that he was referring to. "Stealing meds" was an aside that doesnt really need focusing on, the main analogy that you should have addressed as:
Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions.
Perhaps stealing is still too harsh of a comparison for you since it involves literally taking from someone else. A better example, then, would be: Following your logic, it's ok for someone to stalk (or constantly harass with phone calls would be closer to the idea of stream sniping) a girl simply because it is an assumed risk of walking around in public for everyone to see, looking as sexy as she does.
I dont care about an occasional stream snipe. Using the example above, of course that girls gonna get hit on by some guys if she goes to a bar. However, constant harassment of a pro streamer should be looked down upon just as constant harassment of a girl could land you a restraining order.
No, stalking a girl is illegal. It is also illegal to expose yourself in public, which I guess in this example would be the equivalent to the streamer, if the 'stalker' is the sniper. It's a bad example. What about the open-faced poker player ?
About the repetitive 'harassment' of the streamers, I would be happy to see Blizzard implement something where you don't play the same person over and over again. But really, that's independent of sniping or stream 'cheating'. I thought they did put something in, but I'm not sure about that.
Further, not to criticize Destiny, but in a couple of his recent Youtube videos, I think about teaching someone a cheesy terran build, he is basically watching someone else's stream during a ladder game, giving them advice on how to play. This is kind of the opposite end of this whole spectrum, in this case the streamer is getting benefit from viewers. How do you guys feel about this ? Because it seems if you frown upon the stream "cheating", this should fall into the same category. Again, not to call out Destiny, as I find him entertaining and tune in his stream quite often, but if he's against this 'stream cheating', then it seems he's hopped on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
I think you missed a crucial part of his analogy -- the girl isn't "exposing" herself in public -- she's just minding her own business, walking in public. She has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, because she's attractive (because she naturally is), the stalker starts to stalk her. And I don't see why stalking being illegal is relevant -- it's immoral, and just because stream cheating isn't illegal doesn't mean it's not also immortal.
While you will often play the same player multiple times just naturally (since you're both ending your previous game at the same time), stream sniping will often cause this to happen (when it otherwise wouldn't have). It can sometimes be independent of stream sniping, but isn't necessarily.
The difference here is that the person gave Destiny permission to do this. Stream snipers/cheaters do not receive permission from the people they're playing (and in fact, they're often asked to stop). Back to the girl analogy, Destiny in this case would be the girl's boyfriend. It's okay for him to have pictures of her, or send her love letters, or whatever, because he has her implied permission (by the fact that she continues to date him). The stalker, however, is in the wrong, simply because he does not have her permission to do such things.
First, I completely disagree with the whole analogy comparing a ladder game of Starcraft 2 to stalking a girl on the street. Second, in the Destiny situation, it's not relevant that SHE gave him permission. Did her opponent give him permission ? No, of course not. But do I care ? Not really because this is not much different than Destiny standing over he shoulder giving advice. Something that wouldn't be allowed in tournaments, but for meaningless ladder games, it's fine. Or is it ?
Again, what about the poker analogy ? Is it cheating to look at your poker opponent's cards if he lays them out face-up in front of him ?
It isn't cheating for you to look at a guys cards if he intentionally shows them to you. However, this isn't quite analogous as you not looking at the guys cards means you need to go out of your way, not the other way around. By streaming, you are showing the public your gameplay, however while playing against someone they are no longer paart of the public, as they are now your opponent.
A much better analogy would be if he was playing poker on TV and you tuned into ESPN in order to see his cards.
As far as I am concerned stream sniping is cheating and breaking the system in the first place. Even disregarding the potential to stream cheat, being able to pick your opponent in an environment that is supposed to match you with someone random of the same skill level gives you a huge advantage. It is much like going to a Casino and playing Blackjack while counting cards; the game is intended to give you a 1/50 chance to get any given card, but if you start counting cards suddenly you know when your chances are much much higher to get any card in particular. For example, if I streamsnipe IdrA I can almost guarantee you he isn't going to 6pool me, whereas random GM zerg just might.
This is why poker games broadcast on ESPN are not live ...
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents.
I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly.
For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
You missed the main analogy that he was referring to. "Stealing meds" was an aside that doesnt really need focusing on, the main analogy that you should have addressed as:
Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions.
Perhaps stealing is still too harsh of a comparison for you since it involves literally taking from someone else. A better example, then, would be: Following your logic, it's ok for someone to stalk (or constantly harass with phone calls would be closer to the idea of stream sniping) a girl simply because it is an assumed risk of walking around in public for everyone to see, looking as sexy as she does.
I dont care about an occasional stream snipe. Using the example above, of course that girls gonna get hit on by some guys if she goes to a bar. However, constant harassment of a pro streamer should be looked down upon just as constant harassment of a girl could land you a restraining order.
No, stalking a girl is illegal. It is also illegal to expose yourself in public, which I guess in this example would be the equivalent to the streamer, if the 'stalker' is the sniper. It's a bad example. What about the open-faced poker player ?
About the repetitive 'harassment' of the streamers, I would be happy to see Blizzard implement something where you don't play the same person over and over again. But really, that's independent of sniping or stream 'cheating'. I thought they did put something in, but I'm not sure about that.
Further, not to criticize Destiny, but in a couple of his recent Youtube videos, I think about teaching someone a cheesy terran build, he is basically watching someone else's stream during a ladder game, giving them advice on how to play. This is kind of the opposite end of this whole spectrum, in this case the streamer is getting benefit from viewers. How do you guys feel about this ? Because it seems if you frown upon the stream "cheating", this should fall into the same category. Again, not to call out Destiny, as I find him entertaining and tune in his stream quite often, but if he's against this 'stream cheating', then it seems he's hopped on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
I think you missed a crucial part of his analogy -- the girl isn't "exposing" herself in public -- she's just minding her own business, walking in public. She has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, because she's attractive (because she naturally is), the stalker starts to stalk her. And I don't see why stalking being illegal is relevant -- it's immoral, and just because stream cheating isn't illegal doesn't mean it's not also immortal.
While you will often play the same player multiple times just naturally (since you're both ending your previous game at the same time), stream sniping will often cause this to happen (when it otherwise wouldn't have). It can sometimes be independent of stream sniping, but isn't necessarily.
The difference here is that the person gave Destiny permission to do this. Stream snipers/cheaters do not receive permission from the people they're playing (and in fact, they're often asked to stop). Back to the girl analogy, Destiny in this case would be the girl's boyfriend. It's okay for him to have pictures of her, or send her love letters, or whatever, because he has her implied permission (by the fact that she continues to date him). The stalker, however, is in the wrong, simply because he does not have her permission to do such things.
First, I completely disagree with the whole analogy comparing a ladder game of Starcraft 2 to stalking a girl on the street. Second, in the Destiny situation, it's not relevant that SHE gave him permission. Did her opponent give him permission ? No, of course not. But do I care ? Not really because this is not much different than Destiny standing over he shoulder giving advice. Something that wouldn't be allowed in tournaments, but for meaningless ladder games, it's fine. Or is it ?
Again, what about the poker analogy ? Is it cheating to look at your poker opponent's cards if he lays them out face-up in front of him ?
It isn't cheating for you to look at a guys cards if he intentionally shows them to you. However, this isn't quite analogous as you not looking at the guys cards means you need to go out of your way, not the other way around. By streaming, you are showing the public your gameplay, however while playing against someone they are no longer paart of the public, as they are now your opponent.
A much better analogy would be if he was playing poker on TV and you tuned into ESPN in order to see his cards.
As far as I am concerned stream sniping is cheating and breaking the system in the first place. Even disregarding the potential to stream cheat, being able to pick your opponent in an environment that is supposed to match you with someone random of the same skill level gives you a huge advantage. It is much like going to a Casino and playing Blackjack while counting cards; the game is intended to give you a 1/50 chance to get any given card, but if you start counting cards suddenly you know when your chances are much much higher to get any card in particular. For example, if I streamsnipe IdrA I can almost guarantee you he isn't going to 6pool me, whereas random GM zerg just might.
This is why poker games broadcast on ESPN are not live ...
So you're saying that you want the SC2 community to stop feeding us hours of virtually free content in order to appease a couple of stream snipers?
How about instead of screwing over the whole community we screw the portion of the community who associates themselves with cheaters.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents.
I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly.
For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
You missed the main analogy that he was referring to. "Stealing meds" was an aside that doesnt really need focusing on, the main analogy that you should have addressed as:
Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions.
Perhaps stealing is still too harsh of a comparison for you since it involves literally taking from someone else. A better example, then, would be: Following your logic, it's ok for someone to stalk (or constantly harass with phone calls would be closer to the idea of stream sniping) a girl simply because it is an assumed risk of walking around in public for everyone to see, looking as sexy as she does.
I dont care about an occasional stream snipe. Using the example above, of course that girls gonna get hit on by some guys if she goes to a bar. However, constant harassment of a pro streamer should be looked down upon just as constant harassment of a girl could land you a restraining order.
No, stalking a girl is illegal. It is also illegal to expose yourself in public, which I guess in this example would be the equivalent to the streamer, if the 'stalker' is the sniper. It's a bad example. What about the open-faced poker player ?
About the repetitive 'harassment' of the streamers, I would be happy to see Blizzard implement something where you don't play the same person over and over again. But really, that's independent of sniping or stream 'cheating'. I thought they did put something in, but I'm not sure about that.
Further, not to criticize Destiny, but in a couple of his recent Youtube videos, I think about teaching someone a cheesy terran build, he is basically watching someone else's stream during a ladder game, giving them advice on how to play. This is kind of the opposite end of this whole spectrum, in this case the streamer is getting benefit from viewers. How do you guys feel about this ? Because it seems if you frown upon the stream "cheating", this should fall into the same category. Again, not to call out Destiny, as I find him entertaining and tune in his stream quite often, but if he's against this 'stream cheating', then it seems he's hopped on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
I think you missed a crucial part of his analogy -- the girl isn't "exposing" herself in public -- she's just minding her own business, walking in public. She has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, because she's attractive (because she naturally is), the stalker starts to stalk her. And I don't see why stalking being illegal is relevant -- it's immoral, and just because stream cheating isn't illegal doesn't mean it's not also immortal.
While you will often play the same player multiple times just naturally (since you're both ending your previous game at the same time), stream sniping will often cause this to happen (when it otherwise wouldn't have). It can sometimes be independent of stream sniping, but isn't necessarily.
The difference here is that the person gave Destiny permission to do this. Stream snipers/cheaters do not receive permission from the people they're playing (and in fact, they're often asked to stop). Back to the girl analogy, Destiny in this case would be the girl's boyfriend. It's okay for him to have pictures of her, or send her love letters, or whatever, because he has her implied permission (by the fact that she continues to date him). The stalker, however, is in the wrong, simply because he does not have her permission to do such things.
First, I completely disagree with the whole analogy comparing a ladder game of Starcraft 2 to stalking a girl on the street. Second, in the Destiny situation, it's not relevant that SHE gave him permission. Did her opponent give him permission ? No, of course not. But do I care ? Not really because this is not much different than Destiny standing over he shoulder giving advice. Something that wouldn't be allowed in tournaments, but for meaningless ladder games, it's fine. Or is it ?
Again, what about the poker analogy ? Is it cheating to look at your poker opponent's cards if he lays them out face-up in front of him ?
It isn't cheating for you to look at a guys cards if he intentionally shows them to you. However, this isn't quite analogous as you not looking at the guys cards means you need to go out of your way, not the other way around. By streaming, you are showing the public your gameplay, however while playing against someone they are no longer paart of the public, as they are now your opponent.
A much better analogy would be if he was playing poker on TV and you tuned into ESPN in order to see his cards.
As far as I am concerned stream sniping is cheating and breaking the system in the first place. Even disregarding the potential to stream cheat, being able to pick your opponent in an environment that is supposed to match you with someone random of the same skill level gives you a huge advantage. It is much like going to a Casino and playing Blackjack while counting cards; the game is intended to give you a 1/50 chance to get any given card, but if you start counting cards suddenly you know when your chances are much much higher to get any card in particular. For example, if I streamsnipe IdrA I can almost guarantee you he isn't going to 6pool me, whereas random GM zerg just might.
This is why poker games broadcast on ESPN are not live ...
So you're saying that you want the SC2 community to stop feeding us hours of virtually free content in order to appease a couple of stream snipers?
How about instead of screwing over the whole community we screw the portion of the community who associates themselves with cheaters.
No, I don't want to take away streamers' source of income. If they can earn a living that way, and some of them can, surprisingly, more power to them. But just realize that by streaming your content, you are willing to accept the fact that you are potentially giving some of your opponents perfect information. If a particular opponent wants a "fair" game or is trying to improve, then they won't play while watching the stream. However, that's their decision, just as streaming their games is the streamers' decision.
I'm not trying to appease stream snipers, or anyone else. Just saying this type of thing goes with the territory of opening your "secrets" up to public consumption. Isn't this basically Blizzard's position ? If you make the decision to stream your games, don't expect them to do anything if your opponents choose to watch said stream.
Do you really think streamers are going to stop streaming their games (forgoing that income) just so that they can have 'fair' ladder games ? Come on. MMR doesn't pay bills. Stream income does. Fame and team recognition, sponsorships, coaching income, all the things that go along with getting yourself known by streaming your games, does pay the bills.
If you're watching the stream to set up a game there's no reason to believe that you're turning it off other than the fact you say you're such an upstanding citizen. Don't be surprised when people assume you cheat.
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents.
I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly.
For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
You missed the main analogy that he was referring to. "Stealing meds" was an aside that doesnt really need focusing on, the main analogy that you should have addressed as:
Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions.
Perhaps stealing is still too harsh of a comparison for you since it involves literally taking from someone else. A better example, then, would be: Following your logic, it's ok for someone to stalk (or constantly harass with phone calls would be closer to the idea of stream sniping) a girl simply because it is an assumed risk of walking around in public for everyone to see, looking as sexy as she does.
I dont care about an occasional stream snipe. Using the example above, of course that girls gonna get hit on by some guys if she goes to a bar. However, constant harassment of a pro streamer should be looked down upon just as constant harassment of a girl could land you a restraining order.
No, stalking a girl is illegal. It is also illegal to expose yourself in public, which I guess in this example would be the equivalent to the streamer, if the 'stalker' is the sniper. It's a bad example. What about the open-faced poker player ?
About the repetitive 'harassment' of the streamers, I would be happy to see Blizzard implement something where you don't play the same person over and over again. But really, that's independent of sniping or stream 'cheating'. I thought they did put something in, but I'm not sure about that.
Further, not to criticize Destiny, but in a couple of his recent Youtube videos, I think about teaching someone a cheesy terran build, he is basically watching someone else's stream during a ladder game, giving them advice on how to play. This is kind of the opposite end of this whole spectrum, in this case the streamer is getting benefit from viewers. How do you guys feel about this ? Because it seems if you frown upon the stream "cheating", this should fall into the same category. Again, not to call out Destiny, as I find him entertaining and tune in his stream quite often, but if he's against this 'stream cheating', then it seems he's hopped on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
I think you missed a crucial part of his analogy -- the girl isn't "exposing" herself in public -- she's just minding her own business, walking in public. She has done absolutely nothing wrong. However, because she's attractive (because she naturally is), the stalker starts to stalk her. And I don't see why stalking being illegal is relevant -- it's immoral, and just because stream cheating isn't illegal doesn't mean it's not also immortal.
While you will often play the same player multiple times just naturally (since you're both ending your previous game at the same time), stream sniping will often cause this to happen (when it otherwise wouldn't have). It can sometimes be independent of stream sniping, but isn't necessarily.
The difference here is that the person gave Destiny permission to do this. Stream snipers/cheaters do not receive permission from the people they're playing (and in fact, they're often asked to stop). Back to the girl analogy, Destiny in this case would be the girl's boyfriend. It's okay for him to have pictures of her, or send her love letters, or whatever, because he has her implied permission (by the fact that she continues to date him). The stalker, however, is in the wrong, simply because he does not have her permission to do such things.
First, I completely disagree with the whole analogy comparing a ladder game of Starcraft 2 to stalking a girl on the street. Second, in the Destiny situation, it's not relevant that SHE gave him permission. Did her opponent give him permission ? No, of course not. But do I care ? Not really because this is not much different than Destiny standing over he shoulder giving advice. Something that wouldn't be allowed in tournaments, but for meaningless ladder games, it's fine. Or is it ?
Again, what about the poker analogy ? Is it cheating to look at your poker opponent's cards if he lays them out face-up in front of him ?
It isn't cheating for you to look at a guys cards if he intentionally shows them to you. However, this isn't quite analogous as you not looking at the guys cards means you need to go out of your way, not the other way around. By streaming, you are showing the public your gameplay, however while playing against someone they are no longer paart of the public, as they are now your opponent.
A much better analogy would be if he was playing poker on TV and you tuned into ESPN in order to see his cards.
As far as I am concerned stream sniping is cheating and breaking the system in the first place. Even disregarding the potential to stream cheat, being able to pick your opponent in an environment that is supposed to match you with someone random of the same skill level gives you a huge advantage. It is much like going to a Casino and playing Blackjack while counting cards; the game is intended to give you a 1/50 chance to get any given card, but if you start counting cards suddenly you know when your chances are much much higher to get any card in particular. For example, if I streamsnipe IdrA I can almost guarantee you he isn't going to 6pool me, whereas random GM zerg just might.
This is why poker games broadcast on ESPN are not live ...
So you're saying that you want the SC2 community to stop feeding us hours of virtually free content in order to appease a couple of stream snipers?
How about instead of screwing over the whole community we screw the portion of the community who associates themselves with cheaters.
No, I don't want to take away streamers' source of income. If they can earn a living that way, and some of them can, surprisingly, more power to them. But just realize that by streaming your content, you are willing to accept the fact that you are potentially giving some of your opponents perfect information. If a particular opponent wants a "fair" game or is trying to improve, then they won't play while watching the stream. However, that's their decision, just as streaming their games is the streamers' decision.
I'm not trying to appease stream snipers, or anyone else. Just saying this type of thing goes with the territory of opening your "secrets" up to public consumption. Isn't this basically Blizzard's position ? If you make the decision to stream your games, don't expect them to do anything if your opponents choose to watch said stream.
Do you really think streamers are going to stop streaming their games (forgoing that income) just so that they can have 'fair' ladder games ? Come on. MMR doesn't pay bills. Stream income does. Fame and team recognition, sponsorships, coaching income, all the things that go along with getting yourself known by streaming your games, does pay the bills.
Streamers are acceptable with people stream sniping/cheating on them. Likewise they have no problem labelling all of them as cheaters, snipers included. That is inc's point. No streamer realistically believes that they should never be sniped or cheated upon while streaming.
You're essentially a 5 year old vying for attention. I can tell because anyone with self respect will play games to play games. If they get caught in a game with someone e-famous, cool, if not, no one gives a f**k. Going out of your way to play someone (when you would have other wise played someone of the same relative skill) is just immature.
Nothing wrong with that. But honestly it's all too easy to accuse someone of stream cheating if they're already stream sniping.
On November 16 2011 11:14 VectorCereal wrote: Hello everyone,
I like to annoy people by continuously sniping them on the ladder while also shamelessly plugging myself and talking to their stream chat while in-game. I limit the range of opponents they can face and ultimately lower the player variance they can expect. I also limit their practice to one race. I put myself in the exact same group as avid cheaters, hackers and general assholes and then get annoyed when the person I am sniping groups me with them. Hear my complaints!
@Kaitlin, sure there's a risk that going public means you expose yourself to community parasites (cheaters, hackers, attention whores, snipers), but that doesn't mean we should give parasites any safe harbor. Snipers make the stream worse for the streamer and thousands of viewers. There's no reason to treat them like anything other than vermin.
1. Streams are good for progaming, the SC2 community, and helps communicate the state of the metagame 2. Viewers want to see great players stream 3. Players want good fair games to showcase their skills against other well-matched players 4. Snipers undermine all of this by creating sub par matches (where the effort required to cheat is trivial), and as a community we need to reject this behavior 5. Any of a streamer's potential counters to deal with cheaters (not streaming, delays) hurt the viewers and the community more than the snipers
Rules/laws exist because even though 90% of people do the right thing without some explicit penalty, you'll always have the remaining assholes who ruin it for everyone else. The penalty for sniping is ostracism. OP, deal with the stigma or stop the dodgy behavior.
On November 16 2011 12:09 Kaitlin wrote: I think streaming games of Starcraft 2 is equivalent to playing poker with your cards in front of you, face up, for all to see.
I disagree. Laying down your poker cards in front of you allows every player to see if they just sit there and do nothing. Stream Cheating/stream sniping would involve someone actively trying to find your stream.
A correct analogy involving poker would be a player holding his cards in a way that players cant see them if they just play normally, but they can easily see them if they try to (ie. lean over, look at the reflection in the players glasses, stand behind the player, etc.)
im sorry but for me harstem is not even in the same bunch as deezer/combatex or anyone of those obnoxious stream cheating abusing scum bags. your calling into question his honor and integrity when you basically dont know the guy. hes pretty well respected in EU afaik outside of his obvious beef with beastyqt. your super generalising and using him as an expample when hes clearly one of the few exceptions to your rule/thoughts on stream sniping/cheating
go fucking lynch somebody else incontrol you wanker.
As for the rest of you speculating/semantic loving forum authorities. the guy is a good kid and thats that
On November 16 2011 11:04 hkf wrote: Put a delay on your stream, wow how hard problem solved.
This statement irritates me more than anything. How am I going to run commercials when the stream is delayed? Set a timer on my watch that will let me know when its ok to run a commercial, alt tab to my chat, and type /commercial then go back to gaming? No lol.
Stream sniping is fine, I see nothing wrong with it. Tired of playing him over and over? The beat him again, and again, and again.
Stream cheating with stream sniping is obviously not. It's near impossible to win and quite irritating >< .
On November 16 2011 11:04 hkf wrote: Put a delay on your stream, wow how hard problem solved.
This statement irritates me more than anything. How am I going to run commercials when the stream is delayed? Set a timer on my watch that will let me know when its ok to run a commercial, alt tab to my chat, and type /commercial then go back to gaming? No lol.
Stream sniping is fine, I see nothing wrong with it. Tired of playing him over and over? The beat him again, and again, and again.
Stream cheating with stream sniping is obviously not. It's near impossible to win and quite irritating >< .
I agree with your expression of frustration. Countering the griefers just hurts the streamer and their viewers.
If you beat the sniper enough, they may get desperate enough to leave your stream up next time they snipe. It's a very slippery slope, and rewarding for the sniper to "save face" after several ugly losses. Sniping make full-on cheating easy, and there's no good way to distinguish snipers from cheaters. There might be "honorable" snipers out there, but the activity puts their reputation at risk.
What gives you more right than any other player to be playing a pro with thousands of viewers? Are you more entitled because you are able to watch the pro's stream and time when they queue so you can match-up with them? Sure, you claim you only snipe them once a day, but then how are you supposed to draw the limit on how many snipes per day is acceptable? You can't without being very subjective about it. So I am against stream sniping.
On November 16 2011 14:58 aFganFlyTrap wrote: im sorry but for me harstem is not even in the same bunch as deezer/combatex or anyone of those obnoxious stream cheating abusing scum bags. your calling into question his honor and integrity when you basically dont know the guy. hes pretty well respected in EU afaik outside of his obvious beef with beastyqt. your super generalising and using him as an expample when hes clearly one of the few exceptions to your rule/thoughts on stream sniping/cheating
go fucking lynch somebody else incontrol you wanker.
As for the rest of you speculating/semantic loving forum authorities. the guy is a good kid and thats that
enjoy the parity in arrogance.
There's no lynching here. The OP started this thread to encourage discussion about stream sniping vs cheating. What most people have said is that it's hard to tell the difference, and it's easy for sniping to turn into cheating, and anyway it's kind of lame.
It's not about arrogance, or a sense of superiority, or a need to put a particular person down. It's about encouraging fair play that's fun to watch.
On November 16 2011 09:13 TheCreature wrote: You are incredibly ignorant. Yes it's ok to snipe somebody once, but don't fucking keep doing it. What I saw you doing is sniping incontrol today over and over. It's annoying playing the same person all the freaking time. Stream cheating and stream sniping can be just as annoying to a streamer. I understand you're trying to get publicity, but you're not getting good publicity. Everyone thinks you're just the annoying fucking wanna be stream sniper. Is that the type of publicity you want? I guess if you want to be known as that annoying stream sniper that's cool. But there are already hundreds of other people that do that so you're not special or original.
Hi TheCreature, Please stop spreading lies, as I sniped him once and not over and over again. And no I dont wanna be known as the annoying stream sniper, but as the stream sniper who actually winst the majority of his games
On November 16 2011 11:14 VectorCereal wrote: Hello everyone,
I like to annoy people by continuously sniping them on the ladder while also shamelessly plugging myself and talking to their stream chat while in-game. I limit the range of opponents they can face and ultimately lower the player variance they can expect. I also limit their practice to one race. I put myself in the exact same group as avid cheaters, hackers and general assholes and then get annoyed when the person I am sniping groups me with them. Hear my complaints!
Seriously?
well said^^
Hi VectorCereal, as I stated numerous times in this thread already I only snipe people once. If I get matched with them again after that game, you can't blame me for it, but you should blame the system.
On November 16 2011 09:30 Kaitlin wrote: Sometimes I wonder what's wrong with stream "cheating". They aren't hacking. Their opponent is telling the world exactly what they are doing because they have made a decision that it's worth it because they make money from having viewers. That's the decision made by the streamer. Isn't it kind of weak to call your opponent a cheater when you are the one telling them exactly what you are doing ?
If your argument is that stream cheating should be an assumed risk, I would agree with you to some extent; however, it appears that your argument is based only on a financial platform. Are you saying that it would be "okay" if someone streamed with no personal gain in mind? Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions. While parameters of a situation change ethical debates frequently (think: stealing medication to save a life of another) I don't believe we're going to find such a beneficent set of circumstances occuring in stream cheating. So your debate shouldn't be about assumed risk or the parameters of the situation, it should be able whether cheating is acceptable or not. I guess in your case it's okay. I can't argue with that opinion, but I think it's unfair to place responsibility on the streamers.
The only reason I mentioned the financial aspect is the assumption that the streamer has made a decision to stream, even though that would open them up to stream "cheating", but they go ahead anyways because it's a tradeoff for them. Comparing this to stealing meds to save someone's life or TB's parked car is a bit over the top, don't you think ? These are ladder matches in a video game. It's not like they are streaming their MLG matches to their opponents.
I see this as akin to playing poker with your opponent placing his cards face up in front of him. Are you cheating to look at his cards ? I say no. It's just really stupid for you opponent to do that in poker because what is the benefit ? Same thing with Starcraft, except the opponent does benefit by streaming games to the public. Whether it's fame, money, ego, whatever. They make that decision to do it. I don't see the top pros streaming their practice sessions where they are working on secret builds, do you ? Why not ? Because they don't wish to "assume the risk" that people learn what they are doing. I think the whole idea of getting upset over people stream "cheating" mere ladder games is a bit silly.
For the record, I've never stream "sniped", "cheated", etc., as even if I tried, I'm not high enough to match against anybody important.
You missed the main analogy that he was referring to. "Stealing meds" was an aside that doesnt really need focusing on, the main analogy that you should have addressed as:
Following your logic, it's okay for someone to steal from a store with a poorly designed layout, simply because that is an assumed risk for opening a publicly accessible store with poor security conditions.
Perhaps stealing is still too harsh of a comparison for you since it involves literally taking from someone else. A better example, then, would be: Following your logic, it's ok for someone to stalk (or constantly harass with phone calls would be closer to the idea of stream sniping) a girl simply because it is an assumed risk of walking around in public for everyone to see, looking as sexy as she does.
I dont care about an occasional stream snipe. Using the example above, of course that girls gonna get hit on by some guys if she goes to a bar. However, constant harassment of a pro streamer should be looked down upon just as constant harassment of a girl could land you a restraining order.
Dear sir, I do not constantly harras people and only snipe them once. So I feel like this is a little bit different.
On November 16 2011 09:13 TheCreature wrote: You are incredibly ignorant. Yes it's ok to snipe somebody once, but don't fucking keep doing it. What I saw you doing is sniping incontrol today over and over. It's annoying playing the same person all the freaking time. Stream cheating and stream sniping can be just as annoying to a streamer. I understand you're trying to get publicity, but you're not getting good publicity. Everyone thinks you're just the annoying fucking wanna be stream sniper. Is that the type of publicity you want? I guess if you want to be known as that annoying stream sniper that's cool. But there are already hundreds of other people that do that so you're not special or original.
Hi TheCreature, Please stop spreading lies, as I sniped him once and not over and over again. And no I dont wanna be known as the annoying stream sniper, but as the stream sniper who actually winst the majority of his games
nobody cares about you. people don't want to play you over and over gain because you know how to abuse the ladder mechanic. get a life and grow up.
Community hates on stream sniper because they most likely know of at least one sniper that cheats.
Stream sniper hates on community because he knows of at least one sniper that doesn't.
Use your head.
Edit: I'm not quite sure why Blizzard allows the people like combat-ex to continue playing their game. He blatantly cheats. And imo all people intentionally trying to abuse the ladder system (yeah, stream sniping is abuse) should be banned, especially the arrogant ones that go on forums bragging about it while looking for sympathy.
On November 16 2011 09:13 TheCreature wrote: You are incredibly ignorant. Yes it's ok to snipe somebody once, but don't fucking keep doing it. What I saw you doing is sniping incontrol today over and over. It's annoying playing the same person all the freaking time. Stream cheating and stream sniping can be just as annoying to a streamer. I understand you're trying to get publicity, but you're not getting good publicity. Everyone thinks you're just the annoying fucking wanna be stream sniper. Is that the type of publicity you want? I guess if you want to be known as that annoying stream sniper that's cool. But there are already hundreds of other people that do that so you're not special or original.
Hi TheCreature, Please stop spreading lies, as I sniped him once and not over and over again. And no I dont wanna be known as the annoying stream sniper, but as the stream sniper who actually winst the majority of his games
nobody cares about you. people don't want to play you over and over gain because you know how to abuse the ladder mechanic. get a life and grow up.
Hi Freetgy, Did you actually read what you quoted? I clearly say that I snipe people only once and you are talking about people playing me over and over again.
I totally get the point youre trying to convey in making this thread. Of course stream sniping is not stream cheating. Stream sniping involves just trying to get matched up against a certain guy, stream cheating involves using their stream for what can basically be described as maphacks. Of course, I do believe you that you only stream snipe them once to avoid harassing them, which is even less of a problem.
However, Im sure some others have touched upon this earlier in the thread but you should be able to understand why people dont trust you. I dont know how many stream snipers also stream cheat, but even if its only a couple (I doubt its only just a couple) those guys are such a persistent and frustrating group for famous streamers that its easy to attribute people who snipe to people who cheat. You can never tell 100%, but given that a majority of the snipers they play against probably do cheat (or at least the cheaters make a big enough impression to make it seem that way) and given that it really makes their streaming experience so much worse, you should just let them vent.
Theres also just that other tinge of annoyance i get regarding what you said here in the OP:
On November 16 2011 06:41 Harstem wrote: Instead of playing versus average joe you are playing versus Incontrol, Idra, Kas, HuK etc. Unfortunately not all streamers can appreciate it and sometimes they even falsely accuse you of stream-cheating. This is the opposite of what you want, because when I stream snipe I do this to get free good publicity while playing versus extremely good players. The feeling of winning while your opponent is having 5000+ viewers is really hard to describe, but it feels damn good.
To me its kinda reminds me of when you find out your neighbor is connecting to your wireless router. It makes performance a little worse and makes you wonder, "Yeesh dude, why dont you just get your own damn internet instead of bumming off of mine?" Stream sniping just to get your free good publicity and beating players in front of their own fans for a temporary high seems a little selfish. I mean, these players worked their asses off for their status. I know that you might not have the time to become a progamer like them, but that doesnt make mooching off of their fame ok in my opinion.
Another example that I think of when I read your OP is a streaker at a sports game or something. Some people dont mind or even think its funny, but im there to see the sports game. I really dont want to see some old dudes dick flopping around just because he wants some attention. Parents sure as hell dont like the fact that their kids might see that shit. I dunno, its just my philosophy that even if you want to do something, if you think someone might be directly harmed by your actions you shouldnt go through with it. If you want to become a progamer, then do it the conventional way (through streaming, playing well, and going to tournaments). If you just want your 15 seconds of fame, go ahead and do your thing but try not to annoy others while doing so.
On November 16 2011 16:06 Supamang wrote: If you just want your 15 seconds of fame, go ahead and do your thing but try not to annoy others while doing so.
On November 16 2011 13:05 Seiuchi wrote: If you're watching the stream to set up a game there's no reason to believe that you're turning it off other than the fact you say you're such an upstanding citizen. Don't be surprised when people assume you cheat.
PLUS FRIGGIN 1. So very true, how does anyone actually know that you're turning the stream off after the match is found.
On November 16 2011 16:06 Supamang wrote: If you just want your 15 seconds of fame, go ahead and do your thing but try not to annoy others while doing so.
Tell that to 99% of Hollywood.
I tried 5 years ago but George Clooney still gave his Academy Awards acceptance speech
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
If you don't trust people who stream snipe that is fine by me, but at least try to be fair and not act like you know 100% certain that the person in fact is cheating. More streamers have been giving that attitude more and more lately. It might seem like no big deal for you, but I also am in a team and if the sponsors/manager of that team reads " Hammerstanstein is a cheater" they might kick me out of the team.
Why do u take the risk then? If ur on a team u can play with your teammates instead of pissing of ppl streaming.
If you are gonna streamsnipe and u dont want too be called a hacker just stream when u snipe....
You say that you were no sniping him over and over, however if you were smart when you see that you are continually matched against the same "known" player, go out of your way, get a cofee and whatever before searching a new ladder game and it will allow the player that you stream sniped originally to get another opponent. It's not something that you HAVE to do because it's just the way the ladder works at high level, however it would show that you respect the player that you streamsniped and avoid 90% of the negative feedback.
Concerning the stream delay and commercials, I think I heard that twitch was working on a system that would take into account the delay automatically when you type /commercial (should not be really hard to code). That would make stream delay much more accessible for streamers, however there is still the problem that it prevents live interaction between the stream chat and the streamer.
On November 16 2011 11:14 VectorCereal wrote: Hello everyone,
I like to annoy people by continuously sniping them on the ladder while also shamelessly plugging myself and talking to their stream chat while in-game. I limit the range of opponents they can face and ultimately lower the player variance they can expect. I also limit their practice to one race. I put myself in the exact same group as avid cheaters, hackers and general assholes and then get annoyed when the person I am sniping groups me with them. Hear my complaints!
Have you stream sniped iNcrontroL more than once, for him to know you were stream sniping him?
To me, everyone wants to get their name out there - just be careful on how you do it. The majority of SC2 players have a full plate, like you listed; however, it seems you (and many others, I am sure) have chosen to rely on stream sniping as a form of getting your name out there. A form which only has negative connotations attached to it...
Furthermore, as a viewer, I do not pay attention to who the other player is, unless it is also someone more well-known. If the same player keeps showing up as their opponent, I think the tag "stream cheater" is easily applied/assumed. Coincidence only goes so far, and for me, as a viewer, watching the same opponent play a certain player repeatedly becomes more annoying than anything.
Does a five-year admit to stealing a cookie from the cookie jar, even when the cookie is in his mouth?
On November 16 2011 06:41 Harstem wrote: Instead of playing versus average joe you are playing versus Incontrol, Idra, Kas, HuK etc. Unfortunately not all streamers can appreciate it and sometimes they even falsely accuse you of stream-cheating. This is the opposite of what you want, because when I stream snipe I do this to get free good publicity while playing versus extremely good players. The feeling of winning while your opponent is having 5000+ viewers is really hard to describe, but it feels damn good.
What I am trying to say is: If someone is stream sniping this doesn't necessarily mean they are stream cheating. Lately I am getting more and more streamers who are saying "don't mind this guy, he is a cheater" without even knowing me. This isn't only putting me in a bad daylight, but it also affects my play. When my opponent tells me "u streamcheat" I scout less, because I know that if I find his proxy pylon or his hidden gate he will be like "See this guy is a cheater, fucking scrub".
I hope people learn to appreciate me and my fellow stream snipers more and stop falsely accusing me and others of cheating when we are not.
The thing is, you will not gain good publicity by being a stream sniper. Nor should you. While you personally may only snipe once, many snipe over and over. It is very annoying for the streamer and for the viewers. You choose to put yourself with these people who snipe repeatedly. You choose to put yourself in a group of cheaters. Don't blame the streamer for the similar actions of people like yourself. Stream sniping is not a good method of gaining good publicity. Why? Because no one cares about the sniper. They are watching the stream for the streamer, not you. You become a nuisance.
If you want 5000+ people to watch you win games, GET BETTER. Make a name for yourself the legit way. Perform well in tournaments, have a strong ladder presence without sniping, stream yourself (and I saw you said your computer can't handle it, well thats just tough luck for you man). If you want to gain popularity, stream sniping is not the way to do it. You are either forgotten or become hated.
People won't learn to appreciate snipers because there is nothing to appreciate. Why should I appreciate that you hit find match at the same time as Huk? Play completely legit, and that means match find legit too.
On November 16 2011 11:14 VectorCereal wrote: Hello everyone,
I like to annoy people by continuously sniping them on the ladder while also shamelessly plugging myself and talking to their stream chat while in-game. I limit the range of opponents they can face and ultimately lower the player variance they can expect. I also limit their practice to one race. I put myself in the exact same group as avid cheaters, hackers and general assholes and then get annoyed when the person I am sniping groups me with them. Hear my complaints!
Seriously?
well said^^
LOL he fucking nailed it ^^.
Fools!
Harstem doesnt complain. Harstem enlightens all you noobs about the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating while sharing anecdotal information.
On November 16 2011 06:41 Harstem wrote: Instead of playing versus average joe you are playing versus Incontrol, Idra, Kas, HuK etc. Unfortunately not all streamers can appreciate it and sometimes they even falsely accuse you of stream-cheating. This is the opposite of what you want, because when I stream snipe I do this to get free good publicity while playing versus extremely good players. The feeling of winning while your opponent is having 5000+ viewers is really hard to describe, but it feels damn good.
What I am trying to say is: If someone is stream sniping this doesn't necessarily mean they are stream cheating. Lately I am getting more and more streamers who are saying "don't mind this guy, he is a cheater" without even knowing me. This isn't only putting me in a bad daylight, but it also affects my play. When my opponent tells me "u streamcheat" I scout less, because I know that if I find his proxy pylon or his hidden gate he will be like "See this guy is a cheater, fucking scrub".
I hope people learn to appreciate me and my fellow stream snipers more and stop falsely accusing me and others of cheating when we are not.
The thing is, you will not gain good publicity by being a stream sniper. Nor should you. While you personally may only snipe once, many snipe over and over. It is very annoying for the streamer and for the viewers. You choose to put yourself with these people who snipe repeatedly. You choose to put yourself in a group of cheaters. Don't blame the streamer for the similar actions of people like yourself. Stream sniping is not a good method of gaining good publicity. Why? Because no one cares about the sniper. They are watching the stream for the streamer, not you. You become a nuisance.
If you want 5000+ people to watch you win games, GET BETTER. Make a name for yourself the legit way. Perform well in tournaments, have a strong ladder presence without sniping, stream yourself (and I saw you said your computer can't handle it, well thats just tough luck for you man). If you want to gain popularity, stream sniping is not the way to do it. You are either forgotten or become hated.
People won't learn to appreciate snipers because there is nothing to appreciate. Why should I appreciate that you hit find match at the same time as Huk? Play completely legit, and that means match find legit too.
Enough abuse of the word legit for this fine gentlemen! Thank you very much
On November 16 2011 11:14 VectorCereal wrote: Hello everyone,
I like to annoy people by continuously sniping them on the ladder while also shamelessly plugging myself and talking to their stream chat while in-game. I limit the range of opponents they can face and ultimately lower the player variance they can expect. I also limit their practice to one race. I put myself in the exact same group as avid cheaters, hackers and general assholes and then get annoyed when the person I am sniping groups me with them. Hear my complaints!
Seriously?
well said^^
LOL he fucking nailed it ^^.
Fools!
Harstem doesnt complain. Harstem enlightens all you noobs about the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating while sharing anecdotal information.
Oh well, then it's ok ofc... Good thing this thread isn't almost exclusively about him but about the subject at hand..... Even though only very few people agree with him I think he pretty much likes this thread, since hey... He get's reputation from it and even incontrol + TB wrote in it.
I now know his name although he has (Imo) done nothing to deserve that, pretty impressive...
On November 16 2011 07:35 Capped wrote: Incontrol is a liar, how can he be one of the biggest streamers around when i never see him stream often anymore QQ :-( .
But seriously, the "sniping" isnt really a problem - although pretty stupid imo. But how can you trust someone who has said persons stream open to close it and not look / listen (some players document their play as it happens, explaining their thought process.)
I feel while the OP is right, but he shouldnt really be surprised at the suspicion of the people he snipes. Especially if you tell the guy "hey i watchin ur stream and queued so i cud play u HERP DERP!!" or spam someones twitter? as Inc said the OP did.
hihi capped, this is completely irrelevant to this thread. pls no incontrol/me bashing, I rather have a nice discussion.
I think this says alot about his intelligence, for him not to see this as a joke is pretty stupid... and i also went on to comment about what he was doing, is that not quote, "a nice discussion"?
Not sure if someone said this already. Dont really feel like going through 15 pages atm. its just impossible to know for a streamer if someone is cheating or not. So it is kinda hard to blame them for thinking someone is cheating and that has nothing to do with the difference between cheating and sniping simple due to the fact you cant possibly know which one is going on. on the otherhand i know harstem personally as i am on the same team as him and seen him on multiple lans and ido understand his point aswell. sorry for all the typos etc. still getting used to typing on this phone
On November 16 2011 14:58 aFganFlyTrap wrote: im sorry but for me harstem is not even in the same bunch as deezer/combatex or anyone of those obnoxious stream cheating abusing scum bags. your calling into question his honor and integrity when you basically dont know the guy. hes pretty well respected in EU afaik outside of his obvious beef with beastyqt. your super generalising and using him as an expample when hes clearly one of the few exceptions to your rule/thoughts on stream sniping/cheating
go fucking lynch somebody else incontrol you wanker.
As for the rest of you speculating/semantic loving forum authorities. the guy is a good kid and thats that
enjoy the parity in arrogance.
There's no lynching here. The OP started this thread to encourage discussion about stream sniping vs cheating. What most people have said is that it's hard to tell the difference, and it's easy for sniping to turn into cheating, and anyway it's kind of lame.
It's not about arrogance, or a sense of superiority, or a need to put a particular person down. It's about encouraging fair play that's fun to watch.
it was mainly directed at incontrol and i after reading every post it applies to a few other people aswell
If you stream, then the possibility of being sniped comes naturally with it. And I don't really see players, who are too comfortable to set a delay on their stream, to be in a position to accuse stream snipers of cheating without solid proof just out of the chance that they might do that.
Im actually disgusted and feel terribly sorry for this "harstem"
He is going through GREAT lengths to get his name "known" and in a bad way at that, he is trying to cheat the system and get himself famous quick. Just take a look at this thread, tons of half-assed "look at me" replies to people saying "Hi XXXX, your wrong and thats ok because im mannered"
His actions in making and replies to this thread just promote his dodgy actions - he is sniping purely to get noticed, as someone stated earlier in this thread, winning against said streamer gets you more noticed then getting owned does.
You cannot seriously throw yourself into a basket with scumbags and cheaters (hi combatex, deezer, other assholes.) and expect people to be like, oh well HE is the exception, NATURALLY! Its fucking ridiculous, stop sniping and you wont have to deal with the accusations, because thats all they are, you have no way to prove it either way. Incontrol was never wrong by accusing him of it blindly, its hardly BM. He gets stream cheaters all the time and i think anyone would eventually think "another one? fuck this, im not giving him the benefit of the doubt" and i think we all know how manner Inc is in the first place.
Basically, all you have to do for this "harstem" weed is look at his actions.
1) Stream snipes for exposure and then talks to stream chat + spams twitter in games.
2)Makes thread on TL about how he isnt a "stream cheater" and everyone should recognise him as that.
3) Makes half-assed replys to every single damn comment in this thread that add nothing to the "discussion" he started basically just a frantic attempt to expose himself more and make himself look the "good guy" by being mannered.
4) Enters stream chats after games for the "Look at me i just played Inc im so awesome!" effect on his ego. Again, a frantic attempt at exposure.
5)Stream cheats for wins? who knows. but by all the other methods he is using to further his own ends, i wouldnt put it past him to be honest.
This is all my own opinion of him, and from what ive seen of him he's a dick. plain and simple. He is using all the WRONG methods of getting himself noticed and "out-there" because he thinks its the best way to do it and the fastest.
If he really wanted to play vs good players to learn, why not join tournaments? Unless you can win them every day/week/month at 100% win rate consistently, you have something to learn from the players.
If you really wanted exposure, why arent you streaming, joining the tournies, making friends and practice partners out of the pro-gamers. This is the way to get noticed. Take Beastyqt, he was in a chat channel i hung around in for ages, the next thing i know, the guys on Empire (holy shit balls wut?) - Because he joined tournies, streamed, promoted himself the RIGHT way.
Ridiculous fucking attempt at getting noticed IMO. Dont give him the attention he wants. As if he reads this, i fully expect another "Hi Capped, i dont know why you are being like this to me but its ok, because im GM and feel its ok to disagree!" fake bullshit. :-)
On November 16 2011 18:07 Capped wrote: If he really wanted to play vs good players to learn, why not join tournaments? Unless you can win them every day/week/month at 100% win rate consistently, you have something to learn from the players.
Sorry, but this is definitely not right. It's not as if he's trying to snipe MVP or professionals of such class.
Yeah sniping a pro to play them is NOT cheating and should not be classed as it (considering that you turn the stream off once the loading screen is up, or even just mute it if u only use 1 monitor)
But cheating is when you have dual monitors or even the same monitor and are alt tabing or just watching (on dual montiors) to see what your opponent is doing!
On November 16 2011 18:07 Capped wrote: If he really wanted to play vs good players to learn, why not join tournaments? Unless you can win them every day/week/month at 100% win rate consistently, you have something to learn from the players.
Sorry, but this is definitely not right. It's not as if he's trying to snipe MVP or professionals of such class.
Sorry but how is playing vs people who can and do beat you in order to learn, not right? O.o
and enough of the pro-bashing, Inc may not be the fabled "top tier" but he's a damn good player and deserves respect for everything he's done for e-sports in general away from his gaming. I also do not think many people in this thread have won a WCG or Top 3 at an MLG (granted, before koreans. Still havent done it.)
Can anyone tell me why stream sniping or even stream cheating is even cared about, especially when it really only pertains to ladder games (that noone gives a rats ass about) that make no money?
I'm not trying to defend OP whatsoever but honestly, if you're making money off of streaming your own games and you are getting a fanbase which helps you with sponsorship and what not, you better expect to have people stream cheat vs you, it's just part of the game. This is not a case where both people have something at stake (especially if it's the same stake, like prize money) and someone is map hacking, these are ladder games ffs.
On November 16 2011 18:07 Capped wrote: Im actually disgusted and feel terribly sorry for this "harstem"
LOL why don't you save those words for someone that actually does something criminally wrong, like theft or murder, or even people that hurt the SC2 community in certain southeast asian countries?
Edit: oops, by saying "that make no money," I meant as in, a tournament prize pool. As in, there's nothing to actually play for in the games and whether someone wins or loses really doesn't matter.
I don't see why you need proof or something. If you are stream sniping that means you can be stream cheating as well. Does not mean you are stream cheating, but it may be, and streamer does not know for sure, and he can't know for sure, that's why he assumes you may be stream cheating. I don't get what's wrong with that.
On November 16 2011 18:25 Alpina wrote: I don't see why you need proof or something. If you are stream sniping that means you can be stream cheating as well. Does not mean you are stream cheating, but it may be, and streamer does not know for sure, and he can't know for sure, that's why he assumes you may be stream cheating. I don't get what's wrong with that.
comletelly agree with incontrol.
am I the only one around here who believes in innocent until proven guilty? In other news, since streamers cannot know whether their opponents stream snipe them or not, I'm afraid I miss the relevance of your pointing out stream snipers could be cheating.
On November 16 2011 18:24 ColdLava wrote: Can anyone tell me why stream sniping or even stream cheating is even cared about, especially when it really only pertains to ladder games (that noone gives a rats ass about) that make no money?
I'm not trying to defend OP whatsoever but honestly, if you're making money off of streaming your own games and you are getting a fanbase which helps you with sponsorship and what not, you better expect to have people stream cheat vs you, it's just part of the game. This is not a case where both people have something at stake (especially if it's the same stake, like prize money) and someone is map hacking, these are ladder games ffs.
On November 16 2011 18:07 Capped wrote: Im actually disgusted and feel terribly sorry for this "harstem"
LOL why don't you save those words for someone that actually does something criminally wrong, like theft or murder, or even people that hurt the SC2 community in certain southeast asian countries?
Edit: oops, by saying "that make no money," I meant as in, a tournament prize pool. As in, there's nothing to actually play for in the games and whether someone wins or loses really doesn't matter.
The OP is someone who stream snipes so we dont really "care" about it as he brought it up, we do however care enough, to point out that he is wrong to do it and shouldnt expect sympathy, nor use it to gain attention to himself like a little child. Saying "lol u stream so u shud expect it" is stupid, of course. but it doesnt make it fucking right, on those grounds and to quote Totalbiscuit vaguely"Lol i left my car outside, guess u can steal it cos u saw it!"
I dont save those words for people like that, i do not feel disgusted or sorry for those people, I feel hatred and a deep feeling to smash their skulls in. Also the "words" i save for people like that, cannot be said on TL.
I do not hate nor want to smash this guys skull in, but i sure as hell dont like him or what he's set out to achieve. (well, how he set out to do it anyway).
On November 16 2011 18:07 Capped wrote: If he really wanted to play vs good players to learn, why not join tournaments? Unless you can win them every day/week/month at 100% win rate consistently, you have something to learn from the players.
Sorry, but this is definitely not right. It's not as if he's trying to snipe MVP or professionals of such class.
Sorry but how is playing vs people who can and do beat you in order to learn, not right? O.o
and enough of the pro-bashing, Inc may not be the fabled "top tier" but he's a damn good player and deserves respect for everything he's done for e-sports in general away from his gaming. I also do not think many people in this thread have won a WCG or Top 3 at an MLG (granted, before koreans. Still havent done it.)
No one in this thread has placed Top 3 at an MLG and there's no need for long angry rants and name calling. Take a deep breath. A dude snipes other dudes and one of them dudes called the dude a cheater and then the dude felt that it was time to publicly adress the sniping situation for us other dudes that listens to the dude that said that the dude cheated. It's quite simple and nothing to get all hot headed about.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
I don't see why you need to be so defensive about it and rush to judgment. Sniping and cheating really are two different things, I get that your experience with some players has caused you to be irritated and cynical about this, but I think innocent until proven guilty is a good guideline to follow here.
Hmm you can call me defensive all you like.. I call it experience. Applying utopian policies and hoping for the best might work in other atmospheres but in SC2 people want a leg up for the most part.. if they have nothing to lose and everything to gain why think they are going to disprove the rule thus far?
I agree with incontrol's thoughts.. although stream "sniping" may not be cheating, it makes it so tempting for the sniper to start cheating. You have to accept the doubts & blames if you're going to snipe that you may be cheating.
hihi Namu, I accept the doubts if I am sniping, but I can not accept the "this guy is a cheater" while the game hasn't even started yet. Unless there is clear evidence that the guy is cheating I dont see any use of calling him a cheater just because he stream snipes to get some exposure.
it's very naive to think about it that way. you're using a method that relates to cheating. of course people are way more likely to call you a cheater. even though sniping and cheating are different things, it's too idealistic to expect the general viewers/players to differentiate the two.
On November 16 2011 18:25 Alpina wrote: I don't see why you need proof or something. If you are stream sniping that means you can be stream cheating as well. Does not mean you are stream cheating, but it may be, and streamer does not know for sure, and he can't know for sure, that's why he assumes you may be stream cheating. I don't get what's wrong with that.
comletelly agree with incontrol.
am I the only one around here who believes in innocent until proven guilty? In other news, since streamers cannot know whether their opponents stream snipe them or not, I'm afraid I miss the relevance of your pointing out stream snipers could be cheating.
It's impossible to tell if someone isn't stream sniping you if your stream has zero delay. So by a lot of you guys opinions, everyone might be stream cheating, so why not call everyone out on it?
On November 16 2011 18:07 Capped wrote: If he really wanted to play vs good players to learn, why not join tournaments? Unless you can win them every day/week/month at 100% win rate consistently, you have something to learn from the players.
Sorry, but this is definitely not right. It's not as if he's trying to snipe MVP or professionals of such class.
Sorry but how is playing vs people who can and do beat you in order to learn, not right? O.o
and enough of the pro-bashing, Inc may not be the fabled "top tier" but he's a damn good player and deserves respect for everything he's done for e-sports in general away from his gaming. I also do not think many people in this thread have won a WCG or Top 3 at an MLG (granted, before koreans. Still havent done it.)
Nvm. I read your post wrong. Forget what I wrote, sry.
IF you are going to stream snipe then deal with the negative flak that you will receive. If you dont want to deal with the issue then dont stream snipe. There is no way for you to prove that you were not watching the stream and there is no way for the player to prove that you were cheating. So in the end you need to just deal with it and stop whining.
On November 16 2011 18:07 Capped wrote: If he really wanted to play vs good players to learn, why not join tournaments? Unless you can win them every day/week/month at 100% win rate consistently, you have something to learn from the players.
Sorry, but this is definitely not right. It's not as if he's trying to snipe MVP or professionals of such class.
Sorry but how is playing vs people who can and do beat you in order to learn, not right? O.o
and enough of the pro-bashing, Inc may not be the fabled "top tier" but he's a damn good player and deserves respect for everything he's done for e-sports in general away from his gaming. I also do not think many people in this thread have won a WCG or Top 3 at an MLG (granted, before koreans. Still havent done it.)
I've kind of had enough of this argument. Eventually when someone is disrespectful enough times it overshadows anything they've done positively. Incontrol can't have infinite get out of jail free cards. Can we please as a community accept that he is blindly passionate and as such says many inappropriate things? Or will we keep being selectively blind?
He doesn't have to be either evil or godly. He can be, and is, somewhere in the ugly grey centre.
why do people keep saying they are annoyed as he could be playing better players, yet if the guy didnt have a good enough MMR he wouldnt be playing them in the first place.
yeah i know what u feel bro. like the best of the best dont say anything negative. but i sometimes have bad experience. ill post a little story. i once played on the US server. laddered some games, then i met a guy called something like "spades". i have never heard of this guy in any kind before or after the match.I outplayed him to the very best and he started to flame me that im a streamcheater etc, even tho this guy was a nooname to me. another time i got matched against a protoss player, now i dont even remember the name. after winning him the accused me of streamcheating. i then searched for his stream and let him gladly get the information that me joining his stream almost doubled his viewercount (he had like 50 viewer but well). i just think its sad that the win u deserved can get just talked down that easily :/
No matter how you put it, stream snipers are often also the most nooby cheesers. They don't do it for all the nice reasons you gave, they do it to piss off people and proxy shit on the map against way better players than them.
In a game where everything is about scouting and timing, watching a stream would give you a huge advantage. Cant believe you would admit to something like this, also going out with your full name. Honestly players like this should be banned.
On November 16 2011 20:48 Avean wrote: In a game where everything is about scouting and timing, watching a stream would give you a huge advantage. Cant believe you would admit to something like this, also going out with your full name. Honestly players like this should be banned.
You cant read, can you? He watches the stream, waits for his "victim" to click "Find match" and then CLOSES the stream and clicks find match hisself, so that he hopefully gets matched against him. Everybody in here agrees that stream CHEATING is stupid, but he is SNIPING. The difference between them is also in the OP, l2read please, thanks
On November 16 2011 20:48 Avean wrote: In a game where everything is about scouting and timing, watching a stream would give you a huge advantage. Cant believe you would admit to something like this, also going out with your full name. Honestly players like this should be banned.
You cant read, can you? He watches the stream, waits for his "victim" to click "Find match" and then CLOSES the stream and clicks find match hisself, so that he hopefully gets matched against him. Everybody in here agrees that stream CHEATING is stupid, but he is SNIPING. The difference between them is also in the OP, l2read please, thanks
It's somewhat cheating the system anyway, you're not supposed to do that and ladder encounters are supposed to be randomized. Plus, most sniped players don't want to play the same NA newbie over and over again (and when I say newbie I'm aware that those are grandmasters most likely, but Deezer, really??), you just piss them off and piss off their viewers. All in all, stream sniping should not be praised like the OP does.
As for stream cheating now... these guys are the lowest scum.
On November 16 2011 20:48 Avean wrote: In a game where everything is about scouting and timing, watching a stream would give you a huge advantage. Cant believe you would admit to something like this, also going out with your full name. Honestly players like this should be banned.
You cant read, can you? He watches the stream, waits for his "victim" to click "Find match" and then CLOSES the stream and clicks find match hisself, so that he hopefully gets matched against him. Everybody in here agrees that stream CHEATING is stupid, but he is SNIPING. The difference between them is also in the OP, l2read please, thanks
How do you know he closes the stream? Because he says so? I have a bridge I'd like to sell you...
On November 16 2011 20:48 Avean wrote: In a game where everything is about scouting and timing, watching a stream would give you a huge advantage. Cant believe you would admit to something like this, also going out with your full name. Honestly players like this should be banned.
You cant read, can you? He watches the stream, waits for his "victim" to click "Find match" and then CLOSES the stream and clicks find match hisself, so that he hopefully gets matched against him. Everybody in here agrees that stream CHEATING is stupid, but he is SNIPING. The difference between them is also in the OP, l2read please, thanks
It's somewhat cheating the system anyway, you're not supposed to do that and ladder encounters are supposed to be randomized. Plus, most sniped players don't want to play the same NA newbie over and over again (and when I say newbie I'm aware that those are grandmasters most likely, but Deezer, really??), you just piss them off and piss off their viewers. All in all, stream sniping should not be praised like the OP does.
As for stream cheating now... these guys are the lowest scum.
There is a difference between sniping them once, like Harstem does, to use his time he has available for training as effective as possible and stalking + cheating them, like deezer does. Harstem, the OP, wanted to point out exactly that difference. Prejudice against stream sniper is very similiar to prejudice in real life, it is bad, everybody knows it but doing it anyway (:
If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
In regards to the OP's situation, he guessed you were stream cheating because you put yourself in a situation where he could reasonably assume that you were doing so. Had you not cried out quite so loudly "Hey iNcontroL! I'm on your stream!" you would have been fine.. though of course, 5k people wouldn't have seen your twitter.
One point I find startling here is how many people in this thread are up in arms about professionalism. I wouldn't call iNcontroL's statements professional, but I wouldn't give him a citation and have him fined or anything either. He called it as he saw it, nothing more. Emotional, yes. Worthy of scrutiny, not really. There are ways you can prevent being perceived in such a fashion if the issue is really so important to you.
Also, about the damage he has done to your potential professional career by calling you out as a stream sniper or cheater.. No offense, but nobody was going to remember you for a one-off incident on iNcontroL's stream, I promise you. That kind of recognition came with a 15 page thread about stream cheating subtleties. If you had been matched against him 6 times in a row and were clearly demonstrating knowledge of the stream.. you are going to come off with a bad image, which is not only your fault, but also a big thing you need to consider when you're trying to go pro. Besides, professionals aren't made through stream sniping, they are made through results at tournaments, which you have already stated you lack the time or means to participate in.
I'm sure everybody understands the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating. It seems to me though that most of the community has a clear grasp on the kind of people known to participate in those sorts of activities, and it is unfortunate that through your demeanor you appeared to be one of them. Stream sniping can be fine to find good competition, but if you overdo it you're going to make a bad name for yourself. Like I said, this doesn't only mean repetitive targeting of the same streamer, but also calling attention to yourself and trying to piggyback on his fame. It isn't necessarily wrong, but it is annoying, and you can expect aggravated remarks if that's how you act.
On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote: If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
In regards to the OP's situation, he guessed you were stream cheating because you put yourself in a situation where he could reasonably assume that you were doing so. Had you not cried out quite so loudly "Hey iNcontroL! I'm on your stream!" you would have been fine.. though of course, 5k people wouldn't have seen your twitter.
One point I find startling here is how many people in this thread are up in arms about professionalism. I wouldn't call iNcontroL's statements professional, but I wouldn't give him a citation and have him fined or anything either. He called it as he saw it, nothing more. Emotional, yes. Worthy of scrutiny, not really. There are ways you can prevent being perceived in such a fashion if the issue is really so important to you.
Also, about the damage he has done to your potential professional career by calling you out as a stream sniper or cheater.. No offense, but nobody was going to remember you for a one-off incident on iNcontroL's stream, I promise you. That kind of recognition came with a 15 page thread about stream cheating subtleties. If you had been matched against him 6 times in a row and were clearly demonstrating knowledge of the stream.. you are going to come off with a bad image, which is not only your fault, but also a big thing you need to consider when you're trying to go pro. Besides, professionals aren't made through stream sniping, they are made through results at tournaments, which you have already stated you lack the time or means to participate in.
I'm sure everybody understands the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating. It seems to me though that most of the community has a clear grasp on the kind of people known to participate in those sorts of activities, and it is unfortunate that through your demeanor you appeared to be one of them. Stream sniping can be fine to find good competition, but if you overdo it you're going to make a bad name for yourself. Like I said, this doesn't only mean repetitive targeting of the same streamer, but also calling attention to yourself and trying to piggyback on his fame. It isn't necessarily wrong, but it is annoying, and you can expect aggravated remarks if that's how you act.
It's a shame you only have 1 post. I haven't read something that smart on TL since forever. Welcome aboard and well said
On November 16 2011 19:20 Spicy_Curry wrote: IF you are going to stream snipe then deal with the negative flak that you will receive. If you dont want to deal with the issue then dont stream snipe. There is no way for you to prove that you were not watching the stream and there is no way for the player to prove that you were cheating. So in the end you need to just deal with it and stop whining.
I'm sorry, but I have to agree with harsh statements like this. Even though it might suck to get flamed for being a stream cheater when you didn't do anything like that, if you stream snipe you put yourself in the same boat with those people. At one point you just have to decide if it's worth the hassle, nothing more to it.
On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote: If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
Emphasis mine. But he/she puts it in the best way, I don't see a point in OP creating such a thread.
I am a top 10 NA Grandmaster, and I stream snipe a player of interest intentionally only maybe one or twice a month. However, hate to tell you guys, I hit featured streamers all the time because, guess what, I'm at or above their level on ladder and I match them. For example, yesterday I hit MillStephano on ladder when he was streaming, does that mean i stream sniped him? Nope! All top players only have maybe 80-100 players they would match due to MMR matching, and since most players like 5-6 hours a day, then it's kind of obvious that they'll play each other often. This isn't copper league, there aren't 20,000 people to play at the top, only a handful, so u see a lot of the same faces. And if OP is good enough to match these featured streamers that means he's good enough to get to their level, it;s not like he stream sniped his way to the top. Get real.
On November 16 2011 06:52 Willba wrote: I was watching Beastyqt's stream and I saw he was annoyed with you stream sniping him, he implied that you've done it multiple times as well. Maybe you should not stream snipe people who you know don't like it. Otherwise I don't really see any problem with it.
Hi Willba, Yes I have sniped beastyqt in the past, but I stopped that maybe 1 month ago. However I still ladder and sometimes get matched against him. That is something he has to deal with, because there is no way in avoiding that!
but that players like beasty flame instant and like to do is known ^^ i think if you snipe ra he really coult not care less snipe the cool guys, diss the bad guys ^^
On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote: If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
Emphasis mine. But he/she puts it in the best way, I don't see a point in OP creating such a thread.
Agreed.
Also I'm pretty disturbed by the fact that you stream snipe to get in free advertisement, bragging rights and publicity. You realize that's basically leeching of the said streamer, who has done none of the above to get viewers interested in watching his stream.
These are people putting themselves out there, interacting with the community, sharing their strategies etc. because they are trying to make their living off this. The downsides of this is that you are exposing yourself even more to your competitiors i.e they get a better grasp of how you think, what strategies you like, your tendencies etc. To have "unknowns" trying to jump in and abuse this by using another players stream as a medium to put themselves out there is wrong in my book. There are of course nothing that makes this legally wrong, but morally I'd say its questionable.
Arguing it's hard enough for unknown players to get publicity or/and that you don't have a good enough computer doesn't really justify it seeing how all of these players started from scratch, and I can bet you that they didn't rise to fame by stream sniping.
While I can understand the frustration of being accused of cheating if in fact you aren't. I think it's easy to understand the well known player / peoples point of view. Cheating or not when you are trying to practice and are streaming as well, it eventually gets boring for their viewers and frustrating for the players to play the same person on ladder over and over again.
That's why these guys have teams to do things like repeatedly play 1 match up, and get feedback or try stuff with their team mate. If / when someone is using ladder for practice they are more likely then not going to be doing it for the variety.
As far as getting known goes, stream sniping is not likely to get you known for anything positive. My suggestion would be to enter tournaments and if you are capable win them. If you can do that you'll get noticed, if you can't then frankly you may not be skilled enough yet to receive recognition.
On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote: If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
In regards to the OP's situation, he guessed you were stream cheating because you put yourself in a situation where he could reasonably assume that you were doing so. Had you not cried out quite so loudly "Hey iNcontroL! I'm on your stream!" you would have been fine.. though of course, 5k people wouldn't have seen your twitter.
One point I find startling here is how many people in this thread are up in arms about professionalism. I wouldn't call iNcontroL's statements professional, but I wouldn't give him a citation and have him fined or anything either. He called it as he saw it, nothing more. Emotional, yes. Worthy of scrutiny, not really. There are ways you can prevent being perceived in such a fashion if the issue is really so important to you.
Also, about the damage he has done to your potential professional career by calling you out as a stream sniper or cheater.. No offense, but nobody was going to remember you for a one-off incident on iNcontroL's stream, I promise you. That kind of recognition came with a 15 page thread about stream cheating subtleties. If you had been matched against him 6 times in a row and were clearly demonstrating knowledge of the stream.. you are going to come off with a bad image, which is not only your fault, but also a big thing you need to consider when you're trying to go pro. Besides, professionals aren't made through stream sniping, they are made through results at tournaments, which you have already stated you lack the time or means to participate in.
I'm sure everybody understands the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating. It seems to me though that most of the community has a clear grasp on the kind of people known to participate in those sorts of activities, and it is unfortunate that through your demeanor you appeared to be one of them. Stream sniping can be fine to find good competition, but if you overdo it you're going to make a bad name for yourself. Like I said, this doesn't only mean repetitive targeting of the same streamer, but also calling attention to yourself and trying to piggyback on his fame. It isn't necessarily wrong, but it is annoying, and you can expect aggravated remarks if that's how you act.
Quoting again, simply because it is that good of a post.
Just because something isn't wrong, doesn't make it right. Just because something isn't considered illegal, or cheating, or against the rules, doesn't make it right either. You are choosing to do something that people consider annoying, and that lumps you in a group that gets pegged a certain way(as cheaters). Guilt by association is something that exists, and you have every right to stream snipe all you want. Knock yourself out. But don't be shocked and run to the forum when something negative comes of it.
id say trying to get matched vs a pro once to get practise and to see how you'd do is nothing wrong with as long as you dont cheat or do it so obnoxious like deezerfuck
On November 16 2011 06:52 Willba wrote: I was watching Beastyqt's stream and I saw he was annoyed with you stream sniping him, he implied that you've done it multiple times as well. Maybe you should not stream snipe people who you know don't like it. Otherwise I don't really see any problem with it.
Hi Willba, Yes I have sniped beastyqt in the past, but I stopped that maybe 1 month ago. However I still ladder and sometimes get matched against him. That is something he has to deal with, because there is no way in avoiding that!
but that players like beasty flame instant and like to do is known ^^ i think if you snipe ra he really coult not care less snipe the cool guys, diss the bad guys ^^
Yes im the bad guy for not wanting to get matched vs same person 5 times in a row that 4-6 gates me, okay.
I stream snipe myself and i don't see anything wrong with it. Maybe the OP does it wrong because he wants people to recognize/see him but i do it only to play against top players since most of the time you get unknown players on the ladder. If i snipe for example Stephano, it's both good for me and people watching because they got an interesting match.
On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerchio wrote: I stream snipe myself and i don't see anything wrong with it. Maybe the OP does it wrong because he wants people to recognize/see him but i do it only to play against top players since most of the time you get unknown players on the ladder. If i snipe for example Stephano, it's both good for me and people watching because they got an interesting match.
i bet you are watching tournament streams,meanwhile you playing in this tournament...
On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerchio wrote: I stream snipe myself and i don't see anything wrong with it. Maybe the OP does it wrong because he wants people to recognize/see him but i do it only to play against top players since most of the time you get unknown players on the ladder. If i snipe for example Stephano, it's both good for me and people watching because they got an interesting match.
i bet you are watching tournament streams,meanwhile you playing in this tournament...
On November 17 2011 00:03 Nerchio wrote: I stream snipe myself and i don't see anything wrong with it. Maybe the OP does it wrong because he wants people to recognize/see him but i do it only to play against top players since most of the time you get unknown players on the ladder. If i snipe for example Stephano, it's both good for me and people watching because they got an interesting match.
i bet you are watching tournament streams,meanwhile you playing in this tournament...
Thats not topic of the thread
you are right,im sorry.
stream snipe is not good,if you wanna practice/play with this player,just ask him,okay?
On November 16 2011 06:52 Willba wrote: I was watching Beastyqt's stream and I saw he was annoyed with you stream sniping him, he implied that you've done it multiple times as well. Maybe you should not stream snipe people who you know don't like it. Otherwise I don't really see any problem with it.
Hi Willba, Yes I have sniped beastyqt in the past, but I stopped that maybe 1 month ago. However I still ladder and sometimes get matched against him. That is something he has to deal with, because there is no way in avoiding that!
but that players like beasty flame instant and like to do is known ^^ i think if you snipe ra he really coult not care less snipe the cool guys, diss the bad guys ^^
Yes im the bad guy for not wanting to get matched vs same person 5 times in a row that 4-6 gates me, okay.
I never 4-6gated you and I never played vs you more than once. As I said I stopped sniping you quite a while ago, our recent games have been cuz of ladder matching us.
On November 16 2011 06:41 Harstem wrote: EDIT: I only snipe streamers once, if I get matched up with streamers multiple times in a row(while laddering) it is not my fault, but the system's Dear TeamLiquid, most of you guys will not know so let me introduce myself: I am Kevin "Harstem" de Koning a young dutch protoss player who likes to stream snipe famous players every now and then.
When the game was released a lot of players started a stream. To get more exposure, get money from commercials, to have fun with the viewers, interact with the community etc. One downside of streaming is the fact that the opponent can easily open your stream and see what you are doing. This is really annoying for the streamers and even though it sometimes is fun to watch it also annoys the viewers. The only way to stop this is by either delaying the stream a few minutes or by turning off the stream.
The reason I made this thread is to show people the difference between stream sniping and stream cheating. As I stated above stream-cheating is really annoying and people who win games by stream-cheating should not deserve any credit whatsoever(in my opinion). Stream sniping on the other hand is something completely different. When a person stream snipes, he tries to match a professional/well known player by watching their stream and try to search at the same time. If the MMR of the player sniping and the proffesional/well known player is the same or close to the same there is a high probability to find the streamer!
Instead of playing versus average joe you are playing versus Incontrol, Idra, Kas, HuK etc. Unfortunately not all streamers can appreciate it and sometimes they even falsely accuse you of stream-cheating. This is the opposite of what you want, because when I stream snipe I do this to get free good publicity while playing versus extremely good players. The feeling of winning while your opponent is having 5000+ viewers is really hard to describe, but it feels damn good.
What I am trying to say is: If someone is stream sniping this doesn't necessarily mean they are stream cheating. Lately I am getting more and more streamers who are saying "don't mind this guy, he is a cheater" without even knowing me. This isn't only putting me in a bad daylight, but it also affects my play. When my opponent tells me "u streamcheat" I scout less, because I know that if I find his proxy pylon or his hidden gate he will be like "See this guy is a cheater, fucking scrub".
I hope people learn to appreciate me and my fellow stream snipers more and stop falsely accusing me and others of cheating when we are not.
Have a nice day,
Kevin "Harstem" de Koning
Don't be to harsh on my english please <3 tyty
I could not word my feelings any better than Uncultured did in his post
On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote: Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
This whole thing is getting absolutely ridiculous! I have followed the whole discussion and I find it pathetic that you:
1) Try get attention and fame on someone else's account. - why not just become better, play in tournaments etc. But you want the quick and easy fix. You know, taking the shortcut comes oftentimes with a prize. If you take it, you have to willing to pay! And hey you want publicity? Some say even bad publicity is still publicity, so wohoo there you go!
2) Try to justify your actions by trying to find likeminded people. Just because you find people who have the same opinion as you, doesnt make it right. I'm saying this without any predisposition, and I know this goes either way. But again, just because you try to justify it, and you find people who have same opinion doesnt make it right.
3) Try to say you shouldn't be referred to as cheater, because there is no evidence is simply one of the dumbest things I have ever heard! - Let me elaborate a little. In real life, in order to proof someones guild, he has to be accused of a crime first. In order be accused of something, there must be evidence. True! But that evidence is also present in this case. You are a streamsniper, said so yourself. So if you cheat by streamcheating, there is no hard evidence. Simply because you don't look through the fog of war etc. But, in criminal sense, there is circumstantial evidence: Time, Opportunity, Means, and Motive. You sniped, so did watch the stream, you want fame, and you cannot proof that you didnt cheat. So I believe there is enough evidence to assume your guilt - it is not proofen, but the assumption alone is reasonable.
now you may say, blablabla but you cant just accuse people, and they dont need to proof their innocence. Well, take customs for example. If I come to went to the US for vacation, and come back to Europe, and I have like 3 suitcases but only stayed for a week, customs is going to suspicious. If they look into my shit and find a bunch a new macbooks, abercrombie stuff and whatnot, they will ASSUME i bought it there, and I am the one that must proof I didnt!
4) Your inability to see your own hand in this is just mindblowing. - If you go in a bank with a freakin ski-mask, what you think will happen?
People will ASSUME you are a bankrobber. (ROFL, still cant believe I have to spell this out..) If you are in gang, people will ASSUME you are a criminal.
People will ASSUME you are criminal, whether you intent to rob the bank. People will ASSUME you are a criminal because you are in gang, whether you have done anything or not.
If do certain things, you have to accept the consequences, and live with the associations that come with it. ------
If you dont want be called a cheater: 1. Dont streamsnipe! 2. Streamsnipe and streamyourself. (Thats no proof you could still have the other stream on a separate monitor, but it will be easier detected by your own viewers). And blablabla if you dont have the pc to stream etc, I kindly refer to point 1. DONT STREAMSNIPE.
On November 16 2011 06:45 Hassybaby wrote: Hey Harstem, ty for the write-up.
i've never thought of it in that way, and I'm glad you wrote this. However, while I don't doubt your intentions, I think the main problem is that a lot of stream snipers don't see it that way, and prefer to just harass the pro players, or outright cheat. While I understand how you are not one of them, I hope you can see why people think you are
Hopefully after this case though, it won't be the same. Good luck in your games!
I think most stream snipers want to get exposure and attention. I for example dont have a good enough computer to stream, i can barely run sc2 on low graphics. This way people still can see me play and I think everybody likes to be in the spotlight and so do I!
If you deserve recognition, you'll be noticed. By entering tournaments and placing well, you'll get the recognition you deserve. Its shady for people to try to use someone else's prestige to leech off of.
Since tyhe most fun thing about watching a stream is when they get sniped, or combatEX stream cheats. Schadenfreude I believe is the word best describe it. Seeing the streamer get annoyed brings me a lot of amusement since most SC2-streamers are boring to watch otherwise.
But honestly, just do as you please. I don't really mind one or the other, but of course, can't speak from a professional view
On November 16 2011 06:45 Hassybaby wrote: Hey Harstem, ty for the write-up.
i've never thought of it in that way, and I'm glad you wrote this. However, while I don't doubt your intentions, I think the main problem is that a lot of stream snipers don't see it that way, and prefer to just harass the pro players, or outright cheat. While I understand how you are not one of them, I hope you can see why people think you are
Hopefully after this case though, it won't be the same. Good luck in your games!
On November 16 2011 06:52 Mohdoo wrote: If you deserve recognition, you'll be noticed. By entering tournaments and placing well, you'll get the recognition you deserve. Its shady for people to try to use someone else's prestige to leech off of.
Above statement hits home!!! Don't be a moocher
Are we sure about that? There are some top quality players that don't get the recognition. If we looked at Stephano before IPL (or I guess before the whole Mil vs Col event), did he really get the recognition he deserved? We can make the argument that he didn't win any big tournaments but there could be other factors (e.g. he was still in school). Now he gets thousands of viewers and is featured. There are plenty of great players out there that we just don't know about who have reasons why they can't spend a ton of money to attend a big tournament.
My concern is that the decks are stacked against new people trying to break into the scene. And I'm assuming here, but it seems difficult to get a consistently high number of people (more than 100) for most streams. And it seems difficult to make a strong run at MLG now given how stacked open brackets are becoming. This was talked about last night on ITG where they mentioned how few new non-Korean player were being discovered. This could easily be that the systems in place prevent this from happening.
Now I don't know how I feel about stream sniping, if it's once, I don't see a big deal about it. But it's sort of like a gateway drug towards multiple sniping and potentially cheating.
On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote: If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
Emphasis mine. But he/she puts it in the best way, I don't see a point in OP creating such a thread.
Agreed.
Also I'm pretty disturbed by the fact that you stream snipe to get in free advertisement, bragging rights and publicity. You realize that's basically leeching of the said streamer, who has done none of the above to get viewers interested in watching his stream.
These are people putting themselves out there, interacting with the community, sharing their strategies etc. because they are trying to make their living off this. The downsides of this is that you are exposing yourself even more to your competitiors i.e they get a better grasp of how you think, what strategies you like, your tendencies etc. To have "unknowns" trying to jump in and abuse this by using another players stream as a medium to put themselves out there is wrong in my book. There are of course nothing that makes this legally wrong, but morally I'd say its questionable.
Arguing it's hard enough for unknown players to get publicity or/and that you don't have a good enough computer doesn't really justify it seeing how all of these players started from scratch, and I can bet you that they didn't rise to fame by stream sniping.
I don't really understand your morality argument. To say you'd be leeching off someone insinuates you're profiting at their expense. But in the actual case, you're profiting while they are staying the same, no? If you stream sniping actively hurt them, I could see an argument, but I don't understand where that is happening.
On November 16 2011 06:52 Mohdoo wrote: If you deserve recognition, you'll be noticed. By entering tournaments and placing well, you'll get the recognition you deserve. Its shady for people to try to use someone else's prestige to leech off of.
Above statement hits home!!! Don't be a moocher
Are we sure about that? There are some top quality players that don't get the recognition. If we looked at Stephano before IPL (or I guess before the whole Mil vs Col event), did he really get the recognition he deserved? We can make the argument that he didn't win any big tournaments but there could be other factors (e.g. he was still in school). Now he gets thousands of viewers and is featured. There are plenty of great players out there that we just don't know about who have reasons why they can't spend a ton of money to attend a big tournament.
My concern is that the decks are stacked against new people trying to break into the scene. And I'm assuming here, but it seems difficult to get a consistently high number of people (more than 100) for most streams. And it seems difficult to make a strong run at MLG now given how stacked open brackets are becoming. This was talked about last night on ITG where they mentioned how few new non-Korean player were being discovered. This could easily be that the systems in place prevent this from happening.
Now I don't know how I feel about stream sniping, if it's once, I don't see a big deal about it. But it's sort of like a gateway drug towards multiple sniping and potentially cheating.
Actually, I am not sure about that, considering that a vast majority of the tournaments are invites, favoring popularity over skill.
On November 16 2011 06:52 Mohdoo wrote: If you deserve recognition, you'll be noticed. By entering tournaments and placing well, you'll get the recognition you deserve. Its shady for people to try to use someone else's prestige to leech off of.
Above statement hits home!!! Don't be a moocher
Are we sure about that? There are some top quality players that don't get the recognition. If we looked at Stephano before IPL (or I guess before the whole Mil vs Col event), did he really get the recognition he deserved? We can make the argument that he didn't win any big tournaments but there could be other factors (e.g. he was still in school). Now he gets thousands of viewers and is featured. There are plenty of great players out there that we just don't know about who have reasons why they can't spend a ton of money to attend a big tournament.
My concern is that the decks are stacked against new people trying to break into the scene. And I'm assuming here, but it seems difficult to get a consistently high number of people (more than 100) for most streams. And it seems difficult to make a strong run at MLG now given how stacked open brackets are becoming. This was talked about last night on ITG where they mentioned how few new non-Korean player were being discovered. This could easily be that the systems in place prevent this from happening.
Now I don't know how I feel about stream sniping, if it's once, I don't see a big deal about it. But it's sort of like a gateway drug towards multiple sniping and potentially cheating.
Actually, I am not sure about that, considering that a vast majority of the tournaments are invites, favoring popularity over skill.
That's a fair point, but how would you build popularity? In my mind this is a chicken or the egg situation. The quoted poster suggests performing well in tournaments, to your point, you might not even be invited to prestigious tournaments making your opportunities even fewer.
On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote: If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
Emphasis mine. But he/she puts it in the best way, I don't see a point in OP creating such a thread.
Agreed.
Also I'm pretty disturbed by the fact that you stream snipe to get in free advertisement, bragging rights and publicity. You realize that's basically leeching of the said streamer, who has done none of the above to get viewers interested in watching his stream.
These are people putting themselves out there, interacting with the community, sharing their strategies etc. because they are trying to make their living off this. The downsides of this is that you are exposing yourself even more to your competitiors i.e they get a better grasp of how you think, what strategies you like, your tendencies etc. To have "unknowns" trying to jump in and abuse this by using another players stream as a medium to put themselves out there is wrong in my book. There are of course nothing that makes this legally wrong, but morally I'd say its questionable.
Arguing it's hard enough for unknown players to get publicity or/and that you don't have a good enough computer doesn't really justify it seeing how all of these players started from scratch, and I can bet you that they didn't rise to fame by stream sniping.
I don't really understand your morality argument. To say you'd be leeching off someone insinuates you're profiting at their expense. But in the actual case, you're profiting while they are staying the same, no? If you stream sniping actively hurt them, I could see an argument, but I don't understand where that is happening.
Not to mention, if you are "stream sniping" them, your MMR is at a level comparative to them. So it's not like they're scrub stomping some bronzie. They're playing people in Grand Master ladder and shit.
I have nothing against you or others stream sniping if it doesn't include stream cheating as well.
However Harstem, I seriously have something against you because everytime I see you stream snipe someone you are an unbelievable dick to the person, win or lose, and I've even seen you harass the people you stream snipe AFTER their games, once they're already in another one. Learn to let go, and learn to stop being such an asshole. I for one don't find your antics interesting at all simply for the fact that you completely delegitimize them by just being so obnoxious and rude. You remind me so much of an EU ladder Deezer.
On November 16 2011 06:52 Mohdoo wrote: If you deserve recognition, you'll be noticed. By entering tournaments and placing well, you'll get the recognition you deserve. Its shady for people to try to use someone else's prestige to leech off of.
Above statement hits home!!! Don't be a moocher
Are we sure about that? There are some top quality players that don't get the recognition. If we looked at Stephano before IPL (or I guess before the whole Mil vs Col event), did he really get the recognition he deserved? We can make the argument that he didn't win any big tournaments but there could be other factors (e.g. he was still in school). Now he gets thousands of viewers and is featured. There are plenty of great players out there that we just don't know about who have reasons why they can't spend a ton of money to attend a big tournament.
My concern is that the decks are stacked against new people trying to break into the scene. And I'm assuming here, but it seems difficult to get a consistently high number of people (more than 100) for most streams. And it seems difficult to make a strong run at MLG now given how stacked open brackets are becoming. This was talked about last night on ITG where they mentioned how few new non-Korean player were being discovered. This could easily be that the systems in place prevent this from happening.
Now I don't know how I feel about stream sniping, if it's once, I don't see a big deal about it. But it's sort of like a gateway drug towards multiple sniping and potentially cheating.
Actually, I am not sure about that, considering that a vast majority of the tournaments are invites, favoring popularity over skill.
That's a fair point, but how would you build popularity? In my mind this is a chicken or the egg situation. The quoted poster suggests performing well in tournaments, to your point, you might not even be invited to prestigious tournaments making your opportunities even fewer.
Hm? Maybe we are talking past each other. I agree with your statement, because I don't think that you might not be able to get the recognition "you deserve" in "reasonable" time ("..."=based on opinion) just by entering tournaments, because there are so few of them that are prestigious and open to everybody. Even if you participate and place high in several small cups, now that the TL roundup is gone, many people won't even notice it.
In an ideal world, all tournaments would be open to everybody and players would practise secretely, streaming would be nothing more than service for the fans. But the current world (of competitive gaming) sadly isn't that great. Many tournaments want insta-popularity by inviting popular players (like Dreamhack) and many players need the revenue generated by the stream to support them, teams do not have enough financial support of the sponsors yet to pay them wages of which they can live.
On November 16 2011 06:52 Mohdoo wrote: If you deserve recognition, you'll be noticed. By entering tournaments and placing well, you'll get the recognition you deserve. Its shady for people to try to use someone else's prestige to leech off of.
Above statement hits home!!! Don't be a moocher
Are we sure about that? There are some top quality players that don't get the recognition. If we looked at Stephano before IPL (or I guess before the whole Mil vs Col event), did he really get the recognition he deserved? We can make the argument that he didn't win any big tournaments but there could be other factors (e.g. he was still in school). Now he gets thousands of viewers and is featured. There are plenty of great players out there that we just don't know about who have reasons why they can't spend a ton of money to attend a big tournament.
My concern is that the decks are stacked against new people trying to break into the scene. And I'm assuming here, but it seems difficult to get a consistently high number of people (more than 100) for most streams. And it seems difficult to make a strong run at MLG now given how stacked open brackets are becoming. This was talked about last night on ITG where they mentioned how few new non-Korean player were being discovered. This could easily be that the systems in place prevent this from happening.
Now I don't know how I feel about stream sniping, if it's once, I don't see a big deal about it. But it's sort of like a gateway drug towards multiple sniping and potentially cheating.
Actually, I am not sure about that, considering that a vast majority of the tournaments are invites, favoring popularity over skill.
That's a fair point, but how would you build popularity? In my mind this is a chicken or the egg situation. The quoted poster suggests performing well in tournaments, to your point, you might not even be invited to prestigious tournaments making your opportunities even fewer.
Hm? Maybe we are talking past each other. I agree with your statement, because I don't think that you might not be able to get the recognition "you deserve" in "reasonable" time ("..."=based on opinion) just by entering tournaments, because there are so few of them that are prestigious and open to everybody. Even if you participate and place high in several small cups, now that the TL roundup is gone, many people won't even notice it.
In an ideal world, all tournaments would be open to everybody and players would practise secretely, streaming would be nothing more than service for the fans. But the current world (of competitive gaming) sadly isn't that great. Many tournaments want insta-popularity by inviting popular players (like Dreamhack) and many players need the revenue generated by the stream to support them, teams do not have enough financial support of the sponsors yet to pay them wages of which they can live.
Haha, sorry I misunderstood when you quoted and started with "actually I am not sure", but yeah. :-D
why not build a name for yourself and not on someone who is famous. i would not want to watch your stream should you become good because of the way you seek fame. enter some lans, speak with the community and wins some tournaments
It is cheating. If blizzard want that players choose with who they want to play they would just do a queue. Lader is random for a reason. Its just quite sad.
On November 17 2011 02:53 Grim Hatter wrote: It is cheating. If blizzard want that players choose with who they want to play they would just do a queue. Lader is random for a reason. Its just quite sad.
That's such a dumb statement. I don't think anyone is even trying to say it's cheating. Maybe "gaming the system" or even "exploiting the system" but it doesn't mean you're actually cheating. All he's doing is deciding to search for matches at certain points in time hoping to get matched with someone in particular. How is that "sad."
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
lol are you serious? if sheth is found cheating, sheth looks like an idiot. if hammerstanstein is found cheating, he looks like an idiot. what nobody cares about is who hammerstanstein is in the first place, but he will forever be "that guy who cheated." to argue that somehow hammerstanstein doesn't get shit on by doing that is complete nonsense. look at the people who are known for that sort of thing.
your argument is awful and you're just trying to justify your poor assumptions without having to admit they're dumb, and it might be out of turn but you also seem to be projecting your loose morals on other people, what lengths you would go to for attention if it wasn't given to you by the community willingly.
if i were a random high ranked ladder player i would always snipe good players. playing randoms on ladder is significantly less enjoyable. it's just another tally in your win rate. i'm not good enough for it to match me up with good players in the first place, only reason why i don't. at no point am i ever going to use that to cheat, because that has nothing to do with my goals for it.
your argument kind of reminds me of the DEA trying to convince people that marijuana is a gateway drug to cocaine because if you do one drug, well why not do something a weeeeeeee bit more? stronger drugs feel even better! even though one is completely separate from the other.
your argument kind of reminds me of the DEA trying to convince people that marijuana is a gateway drug to cocaine because if you do one drug, well why not do something a weeeeeeee bit more? stronger drugs feel even better! even though one is completely separate from the other.
It's called the slippery slope fallacy. And the entire sniper = cheater argument is based on it.
I see people like yourself, Harstem, who stream snipe or stream cheat complete trash in the gaming community. It doesn't matter if you are stream sniping or stream cheating its pathetic and sad because you have an ego to feed.
I have no idea who this hammertoes guy is. this tread hasn't even taught me his TL name. /yawn grow up, stop trying to justify what you are doing. you don't see a problem with it? keep it to your damn self cause you know the community looks at you like a cheater. as far as innocent until proven guilty goes....... that's for criminal offenses people. i swear some of you are so uneducated. you don't have to be proven guilty to win a civil lawsuit and get paid mad loots. There is another court. one that probably matters more than civil or criminal court (in the eyes of the people), that's the court of public opinion. learn about it sometime. and guess what..... you don't need any evidence to be convicted there. But by all means, continue cheating hammer123. Cause that's what the public opinion of you is even though you only "snipe" for promotional reasons.
I think it's still stupid as hell, and I don't trust snipers enough to not cheat.
If you want quality practice, get your MMR high up enough. If your MMR isn't high enough to be playing these players, you don't really deserve to be playing them anyway, and you're screwing players with better MMR a chance of playing these high level players for better practice and challenge than you would be giving them.
If you don't have the time to get high enough to play these players consistently, that's just a fact of life you have to deal with.
On November 17 2011 02:53 Grim Hatter wrote: It is cheating. If blizzard want that players choose with who they want to play they would just do a queue. Lader is random for a reason. Its just quite sad.
That's such a dumb statement. I don't think anyone is even trying to say it's cheating. Maybe "gaming the system" or even "exploiting the system" but it doesn't mean you're actually cheating. All he's doing is deciding to search for matches at certain points in time hoping to get matched with someone in particular. How is that "sad."
I didn't mean he is cheating game. I see this as cheating matchmaking system or "exploiting good will of streamers" And as you see there are few people who dont want to be part of it but he still do it to them. That is why is this "sad" but i shouldn't use that word "rude" is better. Such action can discourage streaming because people can see it as annoying or irritating. I hope that explain my statement.
one more thing this sounds to me like. "I want to be given something I haven't earned." Give me promotion, even though I haven't done anything to merit it. Give me promotion, even though I haven't practiced hard enough/long enough to become a professional player. Give me promotion, even though I haven't received any recognition other than flames on TL Give me promotion, even though..........oh crap I'm promoting this hammerblow character..... DAMN HIM and this thread!!!
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
lol are you serious? if sheth is found cheating, sheth looks like an idiot. if hammerstanstein is found cheating, he looks like an idiot. what nobody cares about is who hammerstanstein is in the first place, but he will forever be "that guy who cheated." to argue that somehow hammerstanstein doesn't get shit on by doing that is complete nonsense. look at the people who are known for that sort of thing.
your argument is awful and you're just trying to justify your poor assumptions without having to admit they're dumb, and it might be out of turn but you also seem to be projecting your loose morals on other people, what lengths you would go to for attention if it wasn't given to you by the community willingly.
if i were a random high ranked ladder player i would always snipe good players. playing randoms on ladder is significantly less enjoyable. it's just another tally in your win rate. i'm not good enough for it to match me up with good players in the first place, only reason why i don't. at no point am i ever going to use that to cheat, because that has nothing to do with my goals for it.
your argument kind of reminds me of the DEA trying to convince people that marijuana is a gateway drug to cocaine because if you do one drug, well why not do something a weeeeeeee bit more? stronger drugs feel even better! even though one is completely separate from the other.
lol are you serious? If Sheth is found cheating (don't know why we're using him as an example), his career goes down the pipes. If RandomLadderWarrior456 is found cheating, he gets scorned by an internet community and keeps his day job. The level of "being shit on" is completely different, and the stakes are much higher for a pro player who relies on Starcraft 2 for their livelihood.
To the OP: I never understood stream sniping. If you are qualified to match up against players like IdrA and Sheth, you will get them while they are laddering. Using their stream to try to "time it" just encourages accusations of stream cheating. I certainly wouldn't trust some random ladder warrior that I've never met or heard of, so why should Incontrol when you tell him you definitely aren't cheating? Neither one of you can prove it one way or the other, so I (like many people) would revert to the general fact that people on the internet are douchebags.
Also, it looks pretty self-serving and vain to stream snipe for "exposure." The fact that you get a fuzzy feeling for beating a professional player on his stream in a ladder match is pretty pathetic. Those players get that fuzzy feeling for beating professional players in tournament settings. Maybe you should give that a try? And if you aren't participating in tournaments because you don't want to go pro, why the fuck do you care about exposure? Play to enjoy the game and improve your play, that's all that matters unless you are relying on SC2 to pay the bills.
On November 17 2011 03:44 ZasZ. wrote: Also, it looks pretty self-serving and vain to stream snipe for "exposure." The fact that you get a fuzzy feeling for beating a professional player on his stream in a ladder match is pretty pathetic. Those players get that fuzzy feeling for beating professional players in tournament settings. Maybe you should give that a try? And if you aren't participating in tournaments because you don't want to go pro, why the fuck do you care about exposure? Play to enjoy the game and improve your play, that's all that matters unless you are relying on SC2 to pay the bills.
Really? You wouldn't get a warm fuzzy feeling if you beat a pro with 5,000 people watching? I got a warm fuzzy feeling just for being some guy who Destiny was coaching his student to play against. I beat Destiny's student 4 games in a row. It was awesome!!
Seriously though, I think Incontrol is right, but you can't fault someone for feeling good after beating a professional player knowing that there were thousands of people watching the game. If you don't feel good after that, you're either Idra or not human.
I was reluctant to open this thread until today. This line near the end cracked me up:
I hope people learn to appreciate me and my fellow stream snipers
Umm, "appreciate" you? Stream sniping isn't an art or something for me to marvel at.
Edit: I agree with everything this man says.
On November 17 2011 04:02 DrowSwordsman wrote: Maybe this is just me, but I feel if you want to make yourself known just be a really good player. Even if people realize you're "sniping" and not "cheating" it's generally just not a good vibe. If you want to get yourself out there by streaming, save your pennies and get the hardware to stream yourself. Don't try to get attention by playing people who are streaming and hoping to show off on someone else's stream. Just comes off as immature and attention seeking.
I think streamers should hide SC2 screen region, when they are finished playing or something, just to prevent stream sniping. I don't think stream-snipers would mind
If I remember right, I think R1CH made a auto scene program that probably would do a great job hiding SC2 when u are queuing for a game.
On November 17 2011 03:52 KenZo- wrote: I think streamers should hide SC2 screen region, when they are finished playing or something, just to prevent stream sniping. I don't think stream-snipers would mind
If I remember right, I think R1CH made a auto scene program that probably would do a great job hiding SC2 when u are queuing for a game.
On November 17 2011 03:52 KenZo- wrote: I think streamers should hide SC2 screen region, when they are finished playing or something, just to prevent stream sniping. I don't think stream-snipers would mind
If I remember right, I think R1CH made a auto scene program that probably would do a great job hiding SC2 when u are queuing for a game.
Why so complicated? A simple delay does the job.
I guess that would do as well, tho some streamers like to interact a lot with viewers in chat etc. and to long of a delay 1-2 minutes would maybe be annoying for the broadcaster. but I think a delay probably is a equal or better solution, as it also takes care of the stream-cheaters, at least a little bit.
Maybe this is just me, but I feel if you want to make yourself known just be a really good player. Even if people realize you're "sniping" and not "cheating" it's generally just not a good vibe. If you want to get yourself out there by streaming, save your pennies and get the hardware to stream yourself. Don't try to get attention by playing people who are streaming and hoping to show off on someone else's stream. Just comes off as immature and attention seeking.
On November 17 2011 03:52 KenZo- wrote: I think streamers should hide SC2 screen region, when they are finished playing or something, just to prevent stream sniping. I don't think stream-snipers would mind
If I remember right, I think R1CH made a auto scene program that probably would do a great job hiding SC2 when u are queuing for a game.
But you can still hear when player click find match button. Idra is hidding his screen but some bastard was constantly stream sniping and harassing him.
If you really are good you won't need to snipe players to hit them. Just play your games, enter tournaments, and make your name there. There is no good reason to stream snipe. Stream sniping just seems really lame to me.
Can anyone provide the replay with the Incontrol incident (Harstem?)- or provide a link to his stream archive (I assume he saves them) with a time index?
I never streamed so I may not know a few things but why something like this wouldn't work :
Before you click find match, you put a banner on your stream that totally hide your SC2 screen from the views, mute sc2 sound, click on Find match. When the count down stars, you can put your SC2 screen up again, unmute the sound and play.
am I missing something here ?
oh and on topic. According to the OP and all of who think stream snipping isn't a problem, its like if I walk into a bank with a gun and say : I have a gun but dont worry, I will not steal from you. Then once I get arrested, go around and complain about my horrible experiance.
I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote: I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating.
It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote: I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating.
It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
On November 17 2011 04:31 marcjpb wrote: I never streamed so I may not know a few things but why something like this wouldn't work
If you watch the stream of high profile players that do this, it actually doesn't work. There are ways around it. The better known snipers just use the friend system to see when a person is searching for matchmaking, or can just see when they are in and out of games.
I get not everyone knows this, but non streamers acting like they know how to avoid being stream sniped but none of the 1000 - 4000 viewer streamers don't is silly. This isn't just for you but every time a thread like this comes up people who don't have a large streaming base seem to believe they have the magical solution and streamers are lazy.
On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote: I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating.
It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
as·sump·tion/əˈsəm(p)SHən/ Noun:
A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof
Hello! Welcome to the real world where people make assumptions with no hard evidence or proof all the time! By definition, you make assumptions to make life easier when there is no hard evidence. Sometimes they come back to bite you in the ass, but that's the nature of it.
Incontrol is well within his rights to think somebody stream sniping him is also watching his stream and using it to gain an unfair advantage over him. That doesn't mean he's right or wrong about it. Would he be justified in making a thread on TL calling this person out? Probably not, without proof. Is he entitled to call the guy out on battle.net for what he thinks he is? Certainly.
Meanwhile, the OP seems to think he needs to conduct a public campaign to clear the names of all honorable stream snipers out there. I'm sure there are honorable stream snipers out there (and the OP may be one of them) but what exactly is the point of this thread? Again, it just comes across as attention seeking. When he snipes, people will often assume he is cheating too, and that's just how it's going to be.
On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote: I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating.
It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
as·sump·tion/əˈsəm(p)SHən/ Noun:
A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof
Hello! Welcome to the real world where people make assumptions with no hard evidence or proof all the time! By definition, you make assumptions to make life easier when there is no hard evidence. Sometimes they come back to bite you in the ass, but that's the nature of it.
Incontrol is well within his rights to think somebody stream sniping him is also watching his stream and using it to gain an unfair advantage over him. That doesn't mean he's right or wrong about it. Would he be justified in making a thread on TL calling this person out? Probably not, without proof. Is he entitled to call the guy out on battle.net for what he thinks he is? Certainly.
Meanwhile, the OP seems to think he needs to conduct a public campaign to clear the names of all honorable stream snipers out there. I'm sure there are honorable stream snipers out there (and the OP may be one of them) but what exactly is the point of this thread? Again, it just comes across as attention seeking. When he snipes, people will often assume he is cheating too, and that's just how it's going to be.
No, you don't usually draw conclusions without facts. That's not a good way to live your life. Do you often have conclusive proof? No. Should you be drawing conclusions with no evidence whatsoever? No.
And let's be honest, there is plenty of evidence. If iNcontroL actually cared whether or not this person was stream cheating he could watch the replays. You really don't need to assume.
And I do want to distinguish between evidence and proof. Proof is incredibly hard to get and if you only drew conclusions when you had proof you probably wouldn't be able to leave your house.
On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote: I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating.
It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
as·sump·tion/əˈsəm(p)SHən/ Noun:
A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof
Hello! Welcome to the real world where people make assumptions with no hard evidence or proof all the time! By definition, you make assumptions to make life easier when there is no hard evidence. Sometimes they come back to bite you in the ass, but that's the nature of it.
Incontrol is well within his rights to think somebody stream sniping him is also watching his stream and using it to gain an unfair advantage over him. That doesn't mean he's right or wrong about it. Would he be justified in making a thread on TL calling this person out? Probably not, without proof. Is he entitled to call the guy out on battle.net for what he thinks he is? Certainly.
Meanwhile, the OP seems to think he needs to conduct a public campaign to clear the names of all honorable stream snipers out there. I'm sure there are honorable stream snipers out there (and the OP may be one of them) but what exactly is the point of this thread? Again, it just comes across as attention seeking. When he snipes, people will often assume he is cheating too, and that's just how it's going to be.
No, you don't usually draw conclusions without facts. That's not a good way to live your life. Do you often have conclusive proof? No. Should you be drawing conclusions with no evidence whatsoever? No.
And let's be honest, there is plenty of evidence. If iNcontroL actually cared whether or not this person was stream cheating he could watch the replays. You really don't need to assume.
You seem to be using "assumption" and "conclusion" synonymously. Hard evidence is required for a conclusion. Drawing a conclusion without hard evidence is, by definition, an assumption. Many small assumptions are often made (without proof) in order to come to a larger conclusion (any scientific process, ever).
If Incontrol actually cared, you're right, he would look up the evidence, and post it all over TL about how bad this person is IRLz. But he probably doesn't. He just knows he got stream-sniped (fact) that it kind of looked like a stream-cheater (assumption) and then decided afterward he wasn't sure.
Meanwhile this guy gets his metaphorical panties in a twist when people assume the worst of him. I'm just trying to be realistic here, in that everyone always assumes the worst from netizens until they know better (and can draw conclusions!), because you don't get burned that way.
If I was good enough, I would also try to stream snipe iNcontroL, Tyler, Stephano, IdrA, and every damn pro player out there. It is a dream come true to fight these guys once.
On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote: I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating.
It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
as·sump·tion/əˈsəm(p)SHən/ Noun:
A thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof
Hello! Welcome to the real world where people make assumptions with no hard evidence or proof all the time! By definition, you make assumptions to make life easier when there is no hard evidence. Sometimes they come back to bite you in the ass, but that's the nature of it.
Incontrol is well within his rights to think somebody stream sniping him is also watching his stream and using it to gain an unfair advantage over him. That doesn't mean he's right or wrong about it. Would he be justified in making a thread on TL calling this person out? Probably not, without proof. Is he entitled to call the guy out on battle.net for what he thinks he is? Certainly.
Meanwhile, the OP seems to think he needs to conduct a public campaign to clear the names of all honorable stream snipers out there. I'm sure there are honorable stream snipers out there (and the OP may be one of them) but what exactly is the point of this thread? Again, it just comes across as attention seeking. When he snipes, people will often assume he is cheating too, and that's just how it's going to be.
No, you don't usually draw conclusions without facts. That's not a good way to live your life. Do you often have conclusive proof? No. Should you be drawing conclusions with no evidence whatsoever? No.
And let's be honest, there is plenty of evidence. If iNcontroL actually cared whether or not this person was stream cheating he could watch the replays. You really don't need to assume.
You seem to be using "assumption" and "conclusion" synonymously. Hard evidence is required for a conclusion. Drawing a conclusion without hard evidence is, by definition, an assumption. Many small assumptions are often made (without proof) in order to come to a larger conclusion (any scientific process, ever).
If Incontrol actually cared, you're right, he would look up the evidence, and post it all over TL about how bad this person is IRLz. But he probably doesn't. He just knows he got stream-sniped (fact) that it kind of looked like a stream-cheater (assumption) and then decided afterward he wasn't sure.
Meanwhile this guy gets his metaphorical panties in a twist when people assume the worst of him. I'm just trying to be realistic here, in that everyone always assumes the worst from netizens until they know better (and can draw conclusions!), because you don't get burned that way.
I'm not a fan of assuming that everyone on the internet is immediately a jerk. I think it makes the environment more hostile than it needs to be and oftentimes turns what could be good discussions into trolling and name calling all too quickly.
Like this very thread; it could have been a discussion about whether stream sniping (without cheating) is ok but instead you have tons of people insisting that the cheating comes along with the sniping, calling the OP an attention whore, and a pro gamer posting about how jaded he is about the very community that supports him.
On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote: I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating.
It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
What are you going to do, unless you're deezer or combatex even if you stream cheat you aren't like... going to say you stream cheat.
On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote: I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating.
It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
What are you going to do, unless you're deezer or combatex even if you stream cheat you aren't like... going to say you stream cheat.
What proof are you even looking for.
The replays would provide some pretty good evidence. If someone is actually stream cheating, it's usually easy to tell.
I think you guys are missing the point. For example:
I can think, or even be sure, that some less known politician takes bribes, but it's illegal for me to say it in a TV show unless I have proof.
The fact that Incontrol assumes OP is cheating is totally understandable. The fact that he said it in front of 5000 viewers is appalling, and probably even illegal.
On November 17 2011 07:13 FlayedOne wrote: I think you guys are missing the point. For example:
I can think, or even be sure, that some less known politician takes bribes, but it's illegal for me to say it in a TV show unless I have proof.
The fact that Incontrol assumes OP is cheating is totally understandable. The fact that he said it in front of 5000 viewers is appalling, and probably even illegal.
On November 17 2011 06:50 Klondikebar wrote: I'm not a fan of assuming that everyone on the internet is immediately a jerk. I think it makes the environment more hostile than it needs to be and oftentimes turns what could be good discussions into trolling and name calling all too quickly.
Like this very thread; it could have been a discussion about whether stream sniping (without cheating) is ok but instead you have tons of people insisting that the cheating comes along with the sniping, calling the OP an attention whore, and a pro gamer posting about how jaded he is about the very community that supports him.
While I agree with a lot of what you're saying in this above post, I can't get on board with that last statement. On the contrary, looking at this thread it seems there is a large base of people who are in support of the very same argument Incontrol (in this situation) was putting forth. I would go so far as to say stream snipers aren't even part of the community that streams are being supported by unless you want to count the actual ad revenue that could be generated due to the sniper having the streamers stream open.
Whenever a known stream sniper snipes a player I've seen, the first game may start out with the streamer actually trying to play, but as it becomes more and more frequent, the streamer tends to just give up and I've seen many who will just straight up leave games from anyone that's sniping. That is actually hurting the community and the viewers watching because we then don't get to see said streamers showcasing games.
In regards to the sniping itself, I myself am also of the belief that if someone only snipes once, and uses it only to be matched against a player, I'm generally ok with that, although I certainly understand where it may be construed as abuse of the ladder. If the sniper is willing to do this more then once or twice during a streaming session, I see that as becoming as problem. The issue is that obviously people who can snipe will have similar MMR, so the argument can very easily shift to "well I was matched by mmr, not snipe". In regards to the cheating aspect, anyone who thinks someone looking at a stream while they are playing that person isn't cheating will never be told otherwise, because it's one of those opinions I don't see anyone being able to change for them. In my mind, when I watch a stream, I am a viewer, and can watch the stream freely. Once I am matched against that person, I become the competitor, which me watching the stream of the person would then give me an unfair advantage I would consider cheating.
I'd say in regard to the OP as many have said, don't want to be labeled a cheater, don't snipe. At this point you've already made yourself known as a sniper, so any argument you put forth that you aren't cheating will most likely fall on deaf ears. Had you instead flown under the radar, not announced you were sniping, and showcased games that were good where there was no evidence of stream cheating or hacking, you would have been much better off.
On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote: I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating.
It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
What are you going to do, unless you're deezer or combatex even if you stream cheat you aren't like... going to say you stream cheat.
What proof are you even looking for.
The replays would provide some pretty good evidence. If someone is actually stream cheating, it's usually easy to tell.
On November 17 2011 07:16 FlayedOne wrote: Well, yeah... in Poland throwing accusations in public without proof is illegal. If in US it isn't then I'm surprised.
It is illegal for serious matter... not for random internet arguments.
On November 17 2011 07:13 FlayedOne wrote: I think you guys are missing the point. For example:
I can think, or even be sure, that some less known politician takes bribes, but it's illegal for me to say it in a TV show unless I have proof.
The fact that Incontrol assumes OP is cheating is totally understandable. The fact that he said it in front of 5000 viewers is appalling, and probably even illegal.
On November 17 2011 06:50 Klondikebar wrote: I'm not a fan of assuming that everyone on the internet is immediately a jerk. I think it makes the environment more hostile than it needs to be and oftentimes turns what could be good discussions into trolling and name calling all too quickly.
Like this very thread; it could have been a discussion about whether stream sniping (without cheating) is ok but instead you have tons of people insisting that the cheating comes along with the sniping, calling the OP an attention whore, and a pro gamer posting about how jaded he is about the very community that supports him.
I have friendly conversations with people on Bnet all the time about builds, games, strats, and so on. I don't assume that everyone, all the time, on the internet are assholes right off the bat.
But give me the smallest reason to think that the person on the other end of that computer is a degenerate asshole (whether through BM, "assumed" stream-cheating, scamming, etc.) and I will assume that person is a degenerate asshole and move on. If the OP was really concerned about being perceived as a cheater, he wouldn't advertise the fact that he watches peoples streams, even if presumably to get matched up against them and then not cheat.
I'm not sure why we need to have a discussion on whether stream sniping is OK. Is it against the TOS? Definitely not. Is it cheating? Not by itself, no. Is it right/wrong? Neither really, people can do what they want with their SC2 license as long as it doesn't violate the TOS.
The OP is going to latch on to the streamer's platform and popularity to broadcast his games and SC2 skill, he just needs to not be so surprised when that streamer uses the same platform and popularity to give their opinion on anything and everything, including his integrity.
Well, yeah... in Poland throwing accusations in public without proof is illegal. If in US it isn't then I'm surprised.
As long as it's not a criminal accusation (that man raped me/stole from me/killed my dog) you can go around accusing people of whatever the hell you want. Doesn't mean people will respect you for making baseless claims though.
On November 17 2011 06:50 Klondikebar wrote: I'm not a fan of assuming that everyone on the internet is immediately a jerk. I think it makes the environment more hostile than it needs to be and oftentimes turns what could be good discussions into trolling and name calling all too quickly.
Like this very thread; it could have been a discussion about whether stream sniping (without cheating) is ok but instead you have tons of people insisting that the cheating comes along with the sniping, calling the OP an attention whore, and a pro gamer posting about how jaded he is about the very community that supports him.
I have friendly conversations with people on Bnet all the time about builds, games, strats, and so on. I don't assume that everyone, all the time, on the internet are assholes right off the bat.
But give me the smallest reason to think that the person on the other end of that computer is a degenerate asshole (whether through BM, "assumed" stream-cheating, scamming, etc.) and I will assume that person is a degenerate asshole and move on. If the OP was really concerned about being perceived as a cheater, he wouldn't advertise the fact that he watches peoples streams, even if presumably to get matched up against them and then not cheat.
I'm not sure why we need to have a discussion on whether stream sniping is OK. Is it against the TOS? Definitely not. Is it cheating? Not by itself, no. Is it right/wrong? Neither really, people can do what they want with their SC2 license as long as it doesn't violate the TOS.
The OP is going to latch on to the streamer's platform and popularity to broadcast his games and SC2 skill, he just needs to not be so surprised when that streamer uses the same platform and popularity to give their opinion on anything and everything, including his integrity.
Well, yeah... in Poland throwing accusations in public without proof is illegal. If in US it isn't then I'm surprised.
As long as it's not a criminal accusation (that man raped me/stole from me/killed my dog) you can go around accusing people of whatever the hell you want. Doesn't mean people will respect you for making baseless claims though.
What do you mean by accuse? If you state "he regularly takes bribes" that is slander, no? It's ANYTHING that can damage your reputation that isn't true or supported by facts.
On November 16 2011 06:41 Harstem wrote: because when I stream snipe I do this to get free good publicity while playing versus extremely good players. The feeling of winning while your opponent is having 5000+ viewers is really hard to describe, but it feels damn good.
So, in other words, you WANT to get a following and is an attention whore, but because you can't get anyone to do that, you are trying to advertise yourself to the people who are fans of the person live streaming? All that will do is antagonize yourself to the ignorant masses. Why not just live stream yourself and give the effort to get noticed the positive way?
On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote: I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating.
It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
What are you going to do, unless you're deezer or combatex even if you stream cheat you aren't like... going to say you stream cheat.
What proof are you even looking for.
The replays would provide some pretty good evidence. If someone is actually stream cheating, it's usually easy to tell.
by stream cheating I think you're taking about hacking in this instance ...'
On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote: I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating.
It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
What are you going to do, unless you're deezer or combatex even if you stream cheat you aren't like... going to say you stream cheat.
What proof are you even looking for.
The replays would provide some pretty good evidence. If someone is actually stream cheating, it's usually easy to tell.
by stream cheating I think you're taking about hacking in this instance ...'
Nah, they'll do things like not scout and respond to stuff just a little too fast. You can usually detect stream cheating from a replay.
So do it in private. Don't advertise that you're stream sniping them. Just play the game. As long as you're not being annoying about it like most stream snipers (the ones who do it like 5 games in a row), I can't see you getting any kind of negative reputation for it. They can't know that you happened to intentionally match yourself up with them if you don't tell them and you don't do it incredibly often.
It sounds like people just want attention but then they cry when it turns out to be negative attention.
On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote: I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me.
I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating.
It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account.
Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
What are you going to do, unless you're deezer or combatex even if you stream cheat you aren't like... going to say you stream cheat.
What proof are you even looking for.
The replays would provide some pretty good evidence. If someone is actually stream cheating, it's usually easy to tell.
by stream cheating I think you're taking about hacking in this instance ...'
Nah, they'll do things like not scout and respond to stuff just a little too fast. You can usually detect stream cheating from a replay.
"do things like not scout" <-- map hack "respond to stuff just a little too fast" <-- map hack
On November 17 2011 07:13 FlayedOne wrote: I think you guys are missing the point. For example:
I can think, or even be sure, that some less known politician takes bribes, but it's illegal for me to say it in a TV show unless I have proof.
The fact that Incontrol assumes OP is cheating is totally understandable. The fact that he said it in front of 5000 viewers is appalling, and probably even illegal.
So OP really wants us to feel sorry for him b/c proplayers says he is a cheater? LOL. If you dont want to be called a cheater, dont stream snipe, its that simple. Going from stream sniping to stream cheating is a small step, and I understand why inc would call you out on it. So would i.
So basically: - You snipe a pro now and then if you see him streaming, but only for one game, this doesn't even make you look like a sniper, just a lucky guy queing into a pro (since you don't do it repeatedly, you're basically not a nuisance like other snipers). - You don't actually cheat, you just snipe. - Nobody knew you did this before, there have been no accusations on you so there's nothing to "justify". - Who doesn't know that snipe = watch him que and then que at the same time and cheat = look at the stream to see what he does?
Why did you make this thread again?
Just feels like you wanted more attention.
And the fact that you get surprised when iNcontrol says what he did, it's pretty much right.
Why WOULDN'T you cheat? If you really care so much about wether people think you only snipe or cheat aswell then maybe you should've thought twice about making this thread....?
I'm pretty sure all the other pros earned their position by playing good, winning/placing high in tournaments and showing potential (not showing potential on other pro's streams by sniping them but on tournament streams, PlayhemTV etc...).
I think it's slightly silly to want to use other guys streams to make yourself famous, and it sounds like control was a little irritated by this person in this case, so just don't bother iNcontroL anymore.. , but I can kind of see where harstem is coming from as well, he doesn't have streaming equipment and he wants to gain popularity. People do crazy things to advertise and I think if he's willing to work hard enough to get matched up, and can hold his own, good for him.
I'm normally in agreement with iNcontroL, but this case is a little different, saying that he is a cheater is ridiculous(controls first post in this thread came off as really defensive and aggressive to me), and i can't believe iNcontroL said that with no proof, he is just making an assumption, and that makes him come off like an asshole too me. The whole guilty until proven innocent crap is so ass backwards, and as far as I'm concerned ridiculous. In theory any pro who has a second monitor open for streaming stuff should be considered a cheater cause it's so easy for them to just open up opponent's streams. If your truly streaming for fun and to connect with fans, then ignore these stream snipers, it would give them less attention which you seem to care about.
In the end, iNcontroL makes the decision to put his stream out there without a delay.
On November 16 2011 07:03 iNcontroL wrote: lets break this down:
player wants more exposure so he snipes high level / famous players. player has stream going to snipe but won't look at it cause he is an honorable guy.
Player realizes sniping is half the battle. Why not do a weeeeeeeee bit cheating as well? Winning makes you famous. Stream sniper becomes stream cheater. All the while they swear "nah I am not like the others! I don't do it!"
I don't trust players to be admirable and not cheat when they have nothing at stake. If Sheth is found cheating he loses public image etc.. it's bad. If Hammerstanstein is found cheating nobody cares.
if you admit you stream snipe don't fault the people who don't trust you to not go the 1 step further and cheat.
totally agree - this entire discussion is kinda pointless
How would anyone even know unless a player did it over and over again? Seems like players at the top level with similar MMR's play a lot the way it is. I didn't even know this existed since you would have to be at the very top level for it to even work. I don't consider it cheating.
On November 16 2011 07:54 Uncultured wrote: Calling someone a cheater when you have no evidence they cheated, and basing that judgement solely on past experience of a few bad people doing so... Is incredibly ignorant. People like Incontrol need to have the professionalism to realize that what they say can carry a lot of weight, and possibly end someones career for no reason at all.
Calling every stream-sniper a stream-cheater is ridiculously silly.
I love it when people call into question "professionalism"
I am a professional. I stream for money and to extend my social-reach. When someone spams my game with their twitter, says "sup guys" to my stream and then complains when I call them a "stream cheater" I have no regrets.
if that makes me unprofessional so be it.
In other words, 'Yeah I can call anybody a cheater I want and with no proof provided they send me an in-game message or talk in my chat! That's just who I am! Why should I care about doing the right or wrong thing?!'
I am honestly blown away by the fact that accusing somebody of cheating withut proof is being accepted by everybody just because InControl all of a sudden says its OK. It is so hilarious how every thread like this has every commenter agreeing with the OP but the instant a famous SC2 players disagrees, an epic flood of posts come in to defend them.
You guys are defending the act of accusing others of cheating without ANY proof. This is WRONG and BAD for the community.
It is too bad that you can't even admit that maybe calling somebody a stream-cheater without proof is not the way to go. It is painfully clear that some of these SC2 professionals care about the community a lot more than others.
These explanations are pathetic and the way you guys eat them up is even more pathetic.
I really can't believe this thread is still going on! But since it is I'll just add my little thought on it. Personally I think it's fine to do as long as you are not watching the stream at the same time or cheating in any way. Obviously cheating is something very tempting to do which is the problem. Also, don't do it more than once and be a douche about it.
On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote: If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
Emphasis mine. But he/she puts it in the best way, I don't see a point in OP creating such a thread.
Agreed.
Also I'm pretty disturbed by the fact that you stream snipe to get in free advertisement, bragging rights and publicity. You realize that's basically leeching of the said streamer, who has done none of the above to get viewers interested in watching his stream.
These are people putting themselves out there, interacting with the community, sharing their strategies etc. because they are trying to make their living off this. The downsides of this is that you are exposing yourself even more to your competitiors i.e they get a better grasp of how you think, what strategies you like, your tendencies etc. To have "unknowns" trying to jump in and abuse this by using another players stream as a medium to put themselves out there is wrong in my book. There are of course nothing that makes this legally wrong, but morally I'd say its questionable.
Arguing it's hard enough for unknown players to get publicity or/and that you don't have a good enough computer doesn't really justify it seeing how all of these players started from scratch, and I can bet you that they didn't rise to fame by stream sniping.
good point it's so ez to watch a stream for 3hours and figure out how to beat a player by abusing weaknesses or playing the better build cus u know his "standard build"
Hrmm, I don't view stream sniping as much of an issue unless you are abusing it doing it over and over to the same person. But once, really I could care less. On the other hand, players who 'block' you should no longer face you on the ladder. But ban spots are so limited it's useless from my understanding. =(
Sounds like the OP only posted this thead for attention.....
@ OP, you know why you will never be a Pro. Because you are too worried about other people instead of trying to focus on YOURSELF and your OWN game. If by chance becoming a successful Professional is one of your goals, the stream sniping has gotta stop. Your only creating more hurdles for yourself and quickly burning those bridges.
It's common sense really.
And if you aren't even interested in becoming a successfull professional, your obviously only stream sniping to piss of other players. In this case, people shouldn't even bother giving you the time of day. I know there is no room for people who provoke negativity in my life.
If any Pro streamers are reading this, if you see this guy stream sniping you.... don't even mention it or even his name. He dosen't even deserve any attention whatsoever.
EDIT: A little mod that blanks out the opposing player name on loading screen and in-game chat would be nice.
I also like to add. There are 3 parties in this dilemma;
1. The Streamer who is giving back to the community helping others learn. Granted, yes they get money for it... but keep in mind they are potentially helping thousands of players at once!
2. The viewers who is learning from streams and get to watch and support their favourite player.
3. The wanker who is stream sniping. Wasting the streamers and viewers time. Those arguing that "you can't prove he is cheating"..... well you can't prove that he isn't cheating. You can't ignore the fact if they are stream sniping, theres a very good chance they are stream cheating as well. Regardless of what people like the OP say to try and back up their idiot antics.
If you're a well known player, and you stream your ladder games (who cares about ladder rank anyway, if you're truly a pro, it doesn't mean dick) and put them on a public forum for all to see in real time, every single person you are matched up against could be a "potential cheater" by the logic of the guy that posted above me and others. If your handle was IM.Mvp or something and you had a live stream in grandmasters on a popular site, logic dictates that pretty much everyone you get matched up against will recognize your name, most of them will know this site, and a lot of them will know that you stream. So get over it. Anyone you play against could be watching your stream. If I got matched vs. you, I could have your stream up on a laptop or mobile device pretty quickly without affecting my play, so if you are going to live stream, you have to deal with that reality, and you pretty much lose your license to ever accuse someone of stream-cheating.
On November 17 2011 13:49 LF9 wrote: If you're a well known player, and you stream your ladder games (who cares about ladder rank anyway, if you're truly a pro, it doesn't mean dick) and put them on a public forum for all to see in real time, every single person you are matched up against could be a "potential cheater" by the logic of the guy that posted above me and others. If your handle was IM.Mvp or something and you had a live stream in grandmasters on a popular site, logic dictates that pretty much everyone you get matched up against will recognize your name, most of them will know this site, and a lot of them will know that you stream. So get over it. Anyone you play against could be watching your stream. If I got matched vs. you, I could have your stream up on a laptop or mobile device pretty quickly without affecting my play, so if you are going to live stream, you have to deal with that reality, and you pretty much lose your license to ever accuse someone of stream-cheating.
I'm pretty sure most Pro players are "over it" and know they will have to deal with this. It's just very sad for these players who do stream snipe and feel it neccesary to come on the forums and start up a QQ thread to gain more attention. I couldn't give a shit about people who just want to waste everyones time.
Yeah, stream cheating/sniping will never stop unless the person stops streaming. It's just sad the minority want to take advantage of this and screw it up for the majority. It's very selfish.
The point I think your missing here LF9, is that if the player is "going out of their way" to stream snipe you, it very much also strongly suggests that he is also stream cheating. You can't deny that. Yeah of course, there will be some players who might just stream snipe and thats it, but if you don't want to be labelled a stream cheater.... don't stream snipe. It's common sense really. Don't come on a forum and start up a QQ thread about it.
What responses did the OP expect to get out of this thread;
"Yeah it's ok to stream snipe man, we know your not cheating." huurrp duurrp...
I recall you asking Sheth multiple times for Sheth and he asked you to gain 100 IQ by playing chess and trying a crossword. I laughed so hard.
Stream sniping's alright, but turn the stream off right after so you're not cheating, that way you're just playing better players. Seems fine to me. Cheating on the other hand is bad, but most streamers can beat the cheaters anyway.
On November 16 2011 21:19 Slightly wrote: If stream snipers do not want to be grouped in with cheaters, they should not call attention to the fact that they are sniping. Glhf and get on with it. The reward you get for sniping a professional player should be the heightened competition and the satisfaction of the gameplay. Your stream sniping reward does not include showboating or advertisement, and positive publicity should not be expected when you engage in interaction with the stream.
Emphasis mine. But he/she puts it in the best way, I don't see a point in OP creating such a thread.
Agreed.
Also I'm pretty disturbed by the fact that you stream snipe to get in free advertisement, bragging rights and publicity. You realize that's basically leeching of the said streamer, who has done none of the above to get viewers interested in watching his stream.
These are people putting themselves out there, interacting with the community, sharing their strategies etc. because they are trying to make their living off this. The downsides of this is that you are exposing yourself even more to your competitiors i.e they get a better grasp of how you think, what strategies you like, your tendencies etc. To have "unknowns" trying to jump in and abuse this by using another players stream as a medium to put themselves out there is wrong in my book. There are of course nothing that makes this legally wrong, but morally I'd say its questionable.
Arguing it's hard enough for unknown players to get publicity or/and that you don't have a good enough computer doesn't really justify it seeing how all of these players started from scratch, and I can bet you that they didn't rise to fame by stream sniping.
good point it's so ez to watch a stream for 3hours and figure out how to beat a player by abusing weaknesses or playing the better build cus u know his "standard build"
I don't think there's anything wrong with sniping, as long as you don't do it 3 or 4 or more times in a row. Obviously there is a problem with cheating. InControl was outta line, but what else is new?
So, people are getting mad because iNcontrol called this stream sniper out and said he was stream cheating as well, good! People who are crying because someone got called a stream cheater for stream sniping, LOLOLOLOL...Well, you can see in the OP how many people actually supports this guy and people like him who are nothing but trash in the community. The stupidity on TL forums is hilarious.