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On November 17 2011 05:33 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 05:20 ZasZ. wrote:On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote:
I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me. I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating. It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account. Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice.
What are you going to do, unless you're deezer or combatex even if you stream cheat you aren't like... going to say you stream cheat.
What proof are you even looking for.
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On November 17 2011 06:58 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 05:33 Klondikebar wrote:On November 17 2011 05:20 ZasZ. wrote:On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote:
I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me. I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating. It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account. Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice. What are you going to do, unless you're deezer or combatex even if you stream cheat you aren't like... going to say you stream cheat. What proof are you even looking for.
The replays would provide some pretty good evidence. If someone is actually stream cheating, it's usually easy to tell.
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I think you guys are missing the point. For example:
I can think, or even be sure, that some less known politician takes bribes, but it's illegal for me to say it in a TV show unless I have proof.
The fact that Incontrol assumes OP is cheating is totally understandable.
The fact that he said it in front of 5000 viewers is appalling, and probably even illegal.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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On November 17 2011 07:13 FlayedOne wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point. For example:
I can think, or even be sure, that some less known politician takes bribes, but it's illegal for me to say it in a TV show unless I have proof.
The fact that Incontrol assumes OP is cheating is totally understandable.
The fact that he said it in front of 5000 viewers is appalling, and probably even illegal.
No, it isn't illegal. Maybe in Poland....
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On November 17 2011 06:50 Klondikebar wrote:
I'm not a fan of assuming that everyone on the internet is immediately a jerk. I think it makes the environment more hostile than it needs to be and oftentimes turns what could be good discussions into trolling and name calling all too quickly.
Like this very thread; it could have been a discussion about whether stream sniping (without cheating) is ok but instead you have tons of people insisting that the cheating comes along with the sniping, calling the OP an attention whore, and a pro gamer posting about how jaded he is about the very community that supports him.
While I agree with a lot of what you're saying in this above post, I can't get on board with that last statement. On the contrary, looking at this thread it seems there is a large base of people who are in support of the very same argument Incontrol (in this situation) was putting forth. I would go so far as to say stream snipers aren't even part of the community that streams are being supported by unless you want to count the actual ad revenue that could be generated due to the sniper having the streamers stream open.
Whenever a known stream sniper snipes a player I've seen, the first game may start out with the streamer actually trying to play, but as it becomes more and more frequent, the streamer tends to just give up and I've seen many who will just straight up leave games from anyone that's sniping. That is actually hurting the community and the viewers watching because we then don't get to see said streamers showcasing games.
In regards to the sniping itself, I myself am also of the belief that if someone only snipes once, and uses it only to be matched against a player, I'm generally ok with that, although I certainly understand where it may be construed as abuse of the ladder. If the sniper is willing to do this more then once or twice during a streaming session, I see that as becoming as problem. The issue is that obviously people who can snipe will have similar MMR, so the argument can very easily shift to "well I was matched by mmr, not snipe". In regards to the cheating aspect, anyone who thinks someone looking at a stream while they are playing that person isn't cheating will never be told otherwise, because it's one of those opinions I don't see anyone being able to change for them. In my mind, when I watch a stream, I am a viewer, and can watch the stream freely. Once I am matched against that person, I become the competitor, which me watching the stream of the person would then give me an unfair advantage I would consider cheating.
I'd say in regard to the OP as many have said, don't want to be labeled a cheater, don't snipe. At this point you've already made yourself known as a sniper, so any argument you put forth that you aren't cheating will most likely fall on deaf ears. Had you instead flown under the radar, not announced you were sniping, and showcased games that were good where there was no evidence of stream cheating or hacking, you would have been much better off.
TLDR: You dug your own grave making this thread
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Well, yeah... in Poland throwing accusations in public without proof is illegal. If in US it isn't then I'm surprised.
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On November 17 2011 07:01 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:58 zhurai wrote:On November 17 2011 05:33 Klondikebar wrote:On November 17 2011 05:20 ZasZ. wrote:On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote:
I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me. I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating. It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account. Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice. What are you going to do, unless you're deezer or combatex even if you stream cheat you aren't like... going to say you stream cheat. What proof are you even looking for. The replays would provide some pretty good evidence. If someone is actually stream cheating, it's usually easy to tell.
Not necessarly if the guy has two screens.
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On November 17 2011 07:16 FlayedOne wrote:
Well, yeah... in Poland throwing accusations in public without proof is illegal. If in US it isn't then I'm surprised.
It is illegal for serious matter... not for random internet arguments.
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On November 17 2011 07:15 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 07:13 FlayedOne wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point. For example:
I can think, or even be sure, that some less known politician takes bribes, but it's illegal for me to say it in a TV show unless I have proof.
The fact that Incontrol assumes OP is cheating is totally understandable.
The fact that he said it in front of 5000 viewers is appalling, and probably even illegal. No, it isn't illegal. Maybe in Poland....
It's slander.
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On November 17 2011 06:50 Klondikebar wrote:
I'm not a fan of assuming that everyone on the internet is immediately a jerk. I think it makes the environment more hostile than it needs to be and oftentimes turns what could be good discussions into trolling and name calling all too quickly.
Like this very thread; it could have been a discussion about whether stream sniping (without cheating) is ok but instead you have tons of people insisting that the cheating comes along with the sniping, calling the OP an attention whore, and a pro gamer posting about how jaded he is about the very community that supports him.
I have friendly conversations with people on Bnet all the time about builds, games, strats, and so on. I don't assume that everyone, all the time, on the internet are assholes right off the bat.
But give me the smallest reason to think that the person on the other end of that computer is a degenerate asshole (whether through BM, "assumed" stream-cheating, scamming, etc.) and I will assume that person is a degenerate asshole and move on. If the OP was really concerned about being perceived as a cheater, he wouldn't advertise the fact that he watches peoples streams, even if presumably to get matched up against them and then not cheat.
I'm not sure why we need to have a discussion on whether stream sniping is OK. Is it against the TOS? Definitely not. Is it cheating? Not by itself, no. Is it right/wrong? Neither really, people can do what they want with their SC2 license as long as it doesn't violate the TOS.
The OP is going to latch on to the streamer's platform and popularity to broadcast his games and SC2 skill, he just needs to not be so surprised when that streamer uses the same platform and popularity to give their opinion on anything and everything, including his integrity.
Well, yeah... in Poland throwing accusations in public without proof is illegal. If in US it isn't then I'm surprised.
As long as it's not a criminal accusation (that man raped me/stole from me/killed my dog) you can go around accusing people of whatever the hell you want. Doesn't mean people will respect you for making baseless claims though.
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On November 17 2011 07:33 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:50 Klondikebar wrote:
I'm not a fan of assuming that everyone on the internet is immediately a jerk. I think it makes the environment more hostile than it needs to be and oftentimes turns what could be good discussions into trolling and name calling all too quickly.
Like this very thread; it could have been a discussion about whether stream sniping (without cheating) is ok but instead you have tons of people insisting that the cheating comes along with the sniping, calling the OP an attention whore, and a pro gamer posting about how jaded he is about the very community that supports him.
I have friendly conversations with people on Bnet all the time about builds, games, strats, and so on. I don't assume that everyone, all the time, on the internet are assholes right off the bat. But give me the smallest reason to think that the person on the other end of that computer is a degenerate asshole (whether through BM, "assumed" stream-cheating, scamming, etc.) and I will assume that person is a degenerate asshole and move on. If the OP was really concerned about being perceived as a cheater, he wouldn't advertise the fact that he watches peoples streams, even if presumably to get matched up against them and then not cheat. I'm not sure why we need to have a discussion on whether stream sniping is OK. Is it against the TOS? Definitely not. Is it cheating? Not by itself, no. Is it right/wrong? Neither really, people can do what they want with their SC2 license as long as it doesn't violate the TOS. The OP is going to latch on to the streamer's platform and popularity to broadcast his games and SC2 skill, he just needs to not be so surprised when that streamer uses the same platform and popularity to give their opinion on anything and everything, including his integrity. Show nested quote +Well, yeah... in Poland throwing accusations in public without proof is illegal. If in US it isn't then I'm surprised. As long as it's not a criminal accusation (that man raped me/stole from me/killed my dog) you can go around accusing people of whatever the hell you want. Doesn't mean people will respect you for making baseless claims though.
What do you mean by accuse? If you state "he regularly takes bribes" that is slander, no? It's ANYTHING that can damage your reputation that isn't true or supported by facts.
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On November 16 2011 06:41 Harstem wrote:
because when I stream snipe I do this to get free good publicity while playing versus extremely good players. The feeling of winning while your opponent is having 5000+ viewers is really hard to describe, but it feels damn good.
So, in other words, you WANT to get a following and is an attention whore, but because you can't get anyone to do that, you are trying to advertise yourself to the people who are fans of the person live streaming? All that will do is antagonize yourself to the ignorant masses. Why not just live stream yourself and give the effort to get noticed the positive way?
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On November 17 2011 07:01 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 06:58 zhurai wrote:On November 17 2011 05:33 Klondikebar wrote:On November 17 2011 05:20 ZasZ. wrote:On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote:
I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me. I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating. It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account. Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice. What are you going to do, unless you're deezer or combatex even if you stream cheat you aren't like... going to say you stream cheat. What proof are you even looking for. The replays would provide some pretty good evidence. If someone is actually stream cheating, it's usually easy to tell.
by stream cheating I think you're taking about hacking in this instance ...'
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On November 17 2011 07:42 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 07:01 Klondikebar wrote:On November 17 2011 06:58 zhurai wrote:On November 17 2011 05:33 Klondikebar wrote:On November 17 2011 05:20 ZasZ. wrote:On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote:
I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me. I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating. It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account. Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice. What are you going to do, unless you're deezer or combatex even if you stream cheat you aren't like... going to say you stream cheat. What proof are you even looking for. The replays would provide some pretty good evidence. If someone is actually stream cheating, it's usually easy to tell. by stream cheating I think you're taking about hacking in this instance ...'
Nah, they'll do things like not scout and respond to stuff just a little too fast. You can usually detect stream cheating from a replay.
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So do it in private. Don't advertise that you're stream sniping them. Just play the game. As long as you're not being annoying about it like most stream snipers (the ones who do it like 5 games in a row), I can't see you getting any kind of negative reputation for it. They can't know that you happened to intentionally match yourself up with them if you don't tell them and you don't do it incredibly often.
It sounds like people just want attention but then they cry when it turns out to be negative attention.
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On November 17 2011 07:44 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2011 07:42 zhurai wrote:On November 17 2011 07:01 Klondikebar wrote:On November 17 2011 06:58 zhurai wrote:On November 17 2011 05:33 Klondikebar wrote:On November 17 2011 05:20 ZasZ. wrote:On November 17 2011 05:05 excal wrote:
I read through the whole thread and I still fail to understand where the harm is.
Yes, repeated stream sniping is not good. A single stream snipe, where's the harm? The opponent's MMR must be high enough for them to be matched, so it's not like the viewers are getting a poor game. Yes, the person might cheese/all-in, but that's part of the game, and pros (or non-pros) need to know how to deal with it.
Yes, it is easy for a stream sniper to stream cheat, but it is equally easy for a non sniper to open up the stream to cheat if the opponent is a well known streamer.
Please enlighten me. I'm not sure anybody is saying there is any "harm" in stream sniping. It's just laughable that anybody who does it on a regular basis (the OP) can be shocked and appalled that people will assume he's taking the next step and stream cheating. It's pretty safe to assume that random people you meet on battle.net are assholes. Especially when they talk trash (as he has been rumored to do, although I haven't seen proof). Without any proof one way or another, a professional player will assume a stream sniper is also cheating and move on. Writing out a plea to the community about how sniping isn't necessarily cheating is an exercise in futility and just makes it look like he craves attention. In the end, nobody cares who he is or what he does with his SC2 account. Making assumptions without proof is idiotic. Professional player or not, drawing conclusions with no evidence or proof is not a good practice. What are you going to do, unless you're deezer or combatex even if you stream cheat you aren't like... going to say you stream cheat. What proof are you even looking for. The replays would provide some pretty good evidence. If someone is actually stream cheating, it's usually easy to tell. by stream cheating I think you're taking about hacking in this instance ...' Nah, they'll do things like not scout and respond to stuff just a little too fast. You can usually detect stream cheating from a replay.
"do things like not scout" <-- map hack
"respond to stuff just a little too fast" <-- map hack
it can be either "from a replay"
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Cheater! 
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On November 17 2011 07:13 FlayedOne wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point. For example:
I can think, or even be sure, that some less known politician takes bribes, but it's illegal for me to say it in a TV show unless I have proof.
The fact that Incontrol assumes OP is cheating is totally understandable.
The fact that he said it in front of 5000 viewers is appalling, and probably even illegal.
Worst analogy ever.
And btw... illegal? what? hahahahaha
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So OP really wants us to feel sorry for him b/c proplayers says he is a cheater? LOL. If you dont want to be called a cheater, dont stream snipe, its that simple. Going from stream sniping to stream cheating is a small step, and I understand why inc would call you out on it. So would i.
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EPT
