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On October 25 2011 02:25 reking wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 02:09 Teiwaz wrote:On October 25 2011 02:08 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 25 2011 02:04 domovoi wrote:On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:
The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for. Doesn't efficiency depend entirely on synergies? Having access to mules and scvs for repair will probably be worth the 200/200. Also, you ignore the build time of the replicator, which is pretty short. 200/200 every 30 Seconds is not feasible. You can't repair Protoss buildings/units as far as I'm aware. Any synergy that is worth 50-100 extra gas or minerals + 1-2 extra supply is something everyone will complain about and will be nerfed. Buildings I'm not totally sure of, but units you definitely CAN repair. Have you actually read the SCVs tooltip? It repairs mechanical units and structures. Protoss, Zerg, Terran, there is no such thing, theres armoured, mechanical, biological, etc. SCV repairs mechanical things. The Medivac heals biological units (units means not structures)
So in theory SCVs should be able to repair toss buildings in addition to Colossi and Immortals.
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On October 25 2011 02:25 blamekilly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 02:00 galivet wrote:
PvZ
1. Build two replicants.
2. Get vision of a queen and an overlord and replicate them.
3. Use the overlord to generate creep.
4. Use the queen to plant a creep tumor.
5. Expand your creep for map vision. 6. Have the zerg opponent come kill you after you've invested 400/400 on a useless queen and overlord.
7. Enjoy the zerg moving even faster on the map because you creeped up to your base for them.
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Banshees, this unit single-handedly destroys 1/1/1 allin
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On October 25 2011 02:25 blamekilly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 02:00 galivet wrote:
PvZ
1. Build two replicants.
2. Get vision of a queen and an overlord and replicate them.
3. Use the overlord to generate creep.
4. Use the queen to plant a creep tumor.
5. Expand your creep for map vision. 6. Have the zerg opponent come kill you after you've invested 400/400 on a useless queen and overlord.
Faster than usual, too, because he can use your creep to run towards your base.
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I'm thinking:
vZ: Infestor, Swarm host, Viper, bling if they have burrow and I was desperate
vP: Immortal, VR, Oracle, sentry if I'm desperate
vT: Ghost, Raven, Banshee with cloak, Seige tank, Shredder
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On October 25 2011 02:25 reking wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 25 2011 02:09 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 02:08 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 25 2011 02:04 domovoi wrote:On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:
The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for. Doesn't efficiency depend entirely on synergies? Having access to mules and scvs for repair will probably be worth the 200/200. Also, you ignore the build time of the replicator, which is pretty short. 200/200 every 30 Seconds is not feasible. You can't repair Protoss buildings/units as far as I'm aware. Any synergy that is worth 50-100 extra gas or minerals + 1-2 extra supply is something everyone will complain about and will be nerfed. Buildings I'm not totally sure of, but units you definitely CAN repair. Have you actually read the SCVs tooltip? It repairs mechanical units and structures. Protoss, Zerg, Terran, there is no such thing, theres armoured, mechanical, biological, etc. SCV repairs mechanical things. The Medivac heals biological units (units means not structures)
Have you actually tried it? I have had my units repaired and healed by a Terran ally in team games, so that's something I can tell out of experience. I can't remember having a building repaired but I'm pretty sure it works. I play Protoss and I don't give a shit on tooltips...
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On October 25 2011 02:09 ptrpb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 02:05 Chicane wrote:On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:
The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for. I fail to see how getting a banshee early on, which would then have cloak, would be ineffecient, assuming you could do some damage with it. On October 25 2011 02:02 ptrpb wrote:
honestly I would replicate a drone and create a hatch just to make overlords
scouting for protoss for the cost of 100 minerals? baby pleaaaaase That would be terrible.... unless you want super slow scouts in the mid game, or you are willing to get a spawning pool, a lair, and then overlord speed just so you can sacrifice overlords in their base for EVEN MORE MONEY all because you are too lazy to simply upgrade hallucination. Terrible idea. you don't use them to scout your opponent , you put them around your base to check for drops. yes you can do the same with observers but then you lose robo production imo. but this way you only spent minerals and if you lose them you don't lose supply. i just think it'd be a fun way to use replicate
Fun? Yeah it could definitely be fun in non serious games, but I thought you were talking about a competitive game. You may as well build pylons around or patrol zealots around and save all the time, minerals, gas and trouble. Yes they can't float over ledges, but they will still do a nearly equivalent job.
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For 200/200 I cant see that the replicator will be used very much.
I dont consider it reasonable to replicate a ghost and get off an EMP before they do (as we simply cant be expect to do 3 clicks in the time it takes them to do one).
Tanks do not really fit well in the ball of death.
Infestors could be useful, but more useful than say.. and HT to just feedback their infestors? unlikely.
Only time I ever see this being used is to defend timing pushes. For example, defending vs a 1-1-1 would be useful if we could replicate a banshee or a raven (raven nullify banshee (PDD) and seeker nullify marines.. maybe). we could also steal a tank to take care of the marines.
Tanks are counter-productive if we have zealots.
I personally dont forsee I will use the replicator much.
It may be useful if we do a protoss 1-1-1 build and use replicators to make void rays.
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copy infestor and NP a replicant and reapeat ^'^^
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On October 25 2011 02:32 g0G0RandOm wrote:
copy infestor and NP a replicant and reapeat ^'^^
Given that you could NP your own units... that would achieve what exactly?
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On October 25 2011 02:27 domovoi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 02:25 reking wrote:On October 25 2011 02:09 Teiwaz wrote:On October 25 2011 02:08 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 25 2011 02:04 domovoi wrote:On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:
The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for. Doesn't efficiency depend entirely on synergies? Having access to mules and scvs for repair will probably be worth the 200/200. Also, you ignore the build time of the replicator, which is pretty short. 200/200 every 30 Seconds is not feasible. You can't repair Protoss buildings/units as far as I'm aware. Any synergy that is worth 50-100 extra gas or minerals + 1-2 extra supply is something everyone will complain about and will be nerfed. Buildings I'm not totally sure of, but units you definitely CAN repair. Have you actually read the SCVs tooltip? It repairs mechanical units and structures. Protoss, Zerg, Terran, there is no such thing, theres armoured, mechanical, biological, etc. SCV repairs mechanical things. The Medivac heals biological units (units means not structures) So in theory SCVs should be able to repair toss buildings in addition to Colossi and Immortals.
It works in team games.
Edit: Misread. Not sure about buildings, but definitely works on units.
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I think this is a terrible unit idea and it will only be included in the game if massive restrictions are placed on it. I feel like having all the upgrades whether the person has upgrade or not will get scrapped. Also I feel like you'll have to see the unit before you can replicate it so unless you get cannons vs. a dt rush you wont be counter-replicating dts. Also I feel like the build time for the replicator will have to be one of the longest P build times otherwise it will make P just a boring rush to replicators. Its such a risky unit introduction that will get heavily fleshed out in beta.
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Why are people focusing almost exclusively on the fact that it copies enemy units? It has a considerably larger depth than this.
You can copy your own units and this has a much higher usefulness than some seem to believe. While it is always going to be more expensive to replicate a unit than it is to just build it this is just a way to balance it as if it was cheaper why would you ever build anything other than replicants? The replicated unit will start with 200 energy (I believe) and every research for it unlocked. This is the major benefit replicants have over other units (besides its short build time) and why you would build them. Think about it, you started off with getting a robo and later proceed to get templar tech. While storm research is on its way a huge ball of marines comes knocking on your door. Without having AoE marines are pretty hard to deal with correct? But with this new unit you could warp in a templar, chronoboost out a replicant and have 2 storms ready for when the marines arrive. Your immediate demise has been averted.
There are many more things you can do though; you can speed up tech switches (because the robo can function as another stargate/warp gate but at a higher resource cost), react to what you see your opponent getting (by having a few un-used replicants standing around) or as they don’t have energy until they've replicated something with energy you can wait until after the emp:s hit to make those 3-4 replicants in high templars and storm their army. The possibilities are practically endless and it will make the protoss race that much more flexible. And how do you balance this? Tweak its cost, build time, required supply etc. You’ll hardly be creating any new unbeatable combos by replicating your own units and the fact that you have to invest in a robo to get them makes it counterproductive to include replicants in any sort of tech rush.
I’m however against the concept that it can copy your enemies units as I believe that protoss should stick to protoss, terran to terran and zerg to zerg. You shouldn’t have to resort to “making” other races spellcasters (or any other unit) to win and the fact that you would have real no control over whether they actually make a unit or not does nothing but elevate the issue. However the fact that even being able to copy your own units’ gives protoss so many options make it so that I want the replicant to stay. My suggestion would as such just be to remove the part about it being able to copy units you don’t control.
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On October 25 2011 02:28 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 02:25 blamekilly wrote:On October 25 2011 02:00 galivet wrote:
PvZ
1. Build two replicants.
2. Get vision of a queen and an overlord and replicate them.
3. Use the overlord to generate creep.
4. Use the queen to plant a creep tumor.
5. Expand your creep for map vision. 6. Have the zerg opponent come kill you after you've invested 400/400 on a useless queen and overlord. 7. Enjoy the zerg moving even faster on the map because you creeped up to your base for them.
Unless you're not so stupid that you started the creepspread at your own front door rather than the middle of the map (to keep your opponent's creep from spread there) or your opponent's likely expansion spots.
Your problem is that you assume that the replicator is useless from the outset and then rationalize any use of that unit as counter-productive. With that mindset of course you will never find any use for it because you shut down your own creativity. It's just like with the warp prism: For months all protoss said that the prism was useless because of blah blah blah pessimism and defeatism. And now pros are using the prism in PvZ as harassment staple. The shield buff isn't really making as much of a difference in the viability of the unit as the attitude adjustment by the players to stop blindly assuming that it's shit and to actually try applying their creativity and skill to making it useful. The same thing applies with the replicator: it's not useless; you are.
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The Replicant builds from the Robo in 30 seconds. Think about that. Void Rays build in what, 60 seconds? Immortals 55 seconds? What about morphing into Templar with full Energy and skip waiting for Storm research or waiting for energy? While Replicants may not be cost or supply efficient, they are certainly time efficient. That right there may be the key to their effectiveness as well as their balance; they don't need to be supply/cost efficient, just time efficient and flexible.
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Ravens are my number 1 target.
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remember fellas, this unit is till in it's alpha-beta stage (not sure which) so there are a lot of things to work out. in my opinion i think this does balance out protoss (getting the OP ghosts on the brotoss) but in a sense i fell that it isn't protoss. i wasn't all that thrilled with this unit and personally i hope they scratch this unit all together and come up with a better unit.
hell i'd be happy if they buffed void rays to 100/100 and 2 population with build time of 20. LOLOLOL that would be the day :D
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On October 25 2011 00:39 ZXRP wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 00:34 FagaX wrote:
Didn't they say that you cannot replicate workers? No, this was answered directly by Browder and Kim in the Q&A session. You can copy workers, but the intimated that it isn't really worth it apart from getting your hands on an orbital.
getting access to all your opponents tech isnt worth 200/200? I would in the late game 100% .
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I think it's very hard to predict this but if I understand correctly you get all the upgrades? Then getting a ghost would be a great idea as well as many other spellcasters.
Would be awesome to take banelings and do some magic with that. Very low chance of being useful but could be awesome. Maybe something for 2vs2.
A really baller unit for team play
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Replicate the other player, then it becomes a 2v1.
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EPT
