Personally, I'm not sure what to think of this unit. Blizzard mentioned that it was the one unit that they would have trouble balancing due to its flexibility.
Here's what it does:
Cost: 200/200 It has one skill, "replicate." It is a skill of unlimited range and will turn the replicator into the target. From what I could tell, you cannot replicate more than once. Being able to replicate more than once would most likely make this unit OP.
The replicated unit gets all the skills of the target, even if they haven't been researched yet.
edit: forgot to mention that it cannot replicate massive units
I wasn't able to test whether or not you could replicate your own units.
Would it be viable to replace collossi with tanks? Terran air superiority and bioballs would be pretty pointless. Perhaps there's even a timing where you can get a sieged tank before they do.
Would it be viable to replicate an scv or drone? Unlike in SC1, it's now going to be much easier to do this given the unlimited range. Note that you do not get an additional 200 supply.
Replicate a few infestors for fungal and NP? Fungal would complement storm.
Otherwise, I don't see many other viable targets. Maybe banshees? Or the new units, like the warhound or viper. But tanks alone might make this unit pretty powerful.
To be perfectly honest I think the best use of this unit is in conjunction with some sort of 2 base warp prism harass. the harass hopefully does some damage but the important part is gaining vision of your terran opponents SCV, using the Replicator to morph into an SCV and then gain access to quasi fixes to the real problems with Protoss IE producing ghosts to emp their ghosts, medivacs cuz your units can't heal, vikings cause you don't have an Air to Air armor bonus unit etc etc etc.
I still think this is awful cause at this point your not playing Protoss your plating Proran and Prozerg and i didnt pick Protoss to use Ran and Zerg units but its pretty much ur best bet.
I see it as either a method of picking up tactical tech, or a defensive tool to get a ton of units very very quickly (like a warp), with the added cost
Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
Terran opens with 1-1-1. You chrono out a few Replicants and build 3/4 Gates and all-in. Replicate the first siege tank that comes out, and you'll have 2 or 3 siege tanks with siege mode vs 1 siege tank without siege mode. GG.
This all-in will replace the VR all-in vs Terran. Basically Terran is going to have to open with Bio every game.
On October 25 2011 00:34 FagaX wrote: Didn't they say that you cannot replicate workers?
No, this was answered directly by Browder and Kim in the Q&A session. You can copy workers, but the intimated that it isn't really worth it apart from getting your hands on an orbital.
You can't replicate your own units right? That would be very silly. Make collo -> make replicators, getting 200/200 collos with a free range upgrade. hah!
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
It doesn't work on massive units IIRC.
As for copying your own units, at best you'll do it on immortals/void rays in case of a tech switch. The problem is that because it comes from a robo, it doesn't actually encourage tech switches at all. I'd rather it come from a gateway and only usable on your own units, so that we don't have to rely on gimmicky shit like copying a ghost to EMP enemy ghosts.
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
Yes you can replicate your own units. However, you cannot replicate massive units, so archons and colossi are out of the picture.
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
On October 24 2011 23:58 VTPerfect wrote: To be perfectly honest I think the best use of this unit is in conjunction with some sort of 2 base warp prism harass. the harass hopefully does some damage but the important part is gaining vision of your terran opponents SCV, using the Replicator to morph into an SCV and then gain access to quasi fixes to the real problems with Protoss IE producing ghosts to emp their ghosts, medivacs cuz your units can't heal, vikings cause you don't have an Air to Air armor bonus unit etc etc etc.
I still think this is awful cause at this point your not playing Protoss your plating Proran and Prozerg and i didnt pick Protoss to use Ran and Zerg units but its pretty much ur best bet.
Pretty much this. Whether or not this unit is balanced doesn't really matter. I play Protoss to play Protoss, and if the only way to fix the race is to give them other race's units, it seems like Blizzard's kind of out of ideas. As is I feel like PvZ will be viper wars, which seems really, really silly to me.
On October 24 2011 23:58 VTPerfect wrote: To be perfectly honest I think the best use of this unit is in conjunction with some sort of 2 base warp prism harass. the harass hopefully does some damage but the important part is gaining vision of your terran opponents SCV, using the Replicator to morph into an SCV and then gain access to quasi fixes to the real problems with Protoss IE producing ghosts to emp their ghosts, medivacs cuz your units can't heal, vikings cause you don't have an Air to Air armor bonus unit etc etc etc.
I still think this is awful cause at this point your not playing Protoss your plating Proran and Prozerg and i didnt pick Protoss to use Ran and Zerg units but its pretty much ur best bet.
This will never work. You have to go down the protoss and terran tech trees at once. Investment in production/tech is going to put you far behind in army. Maybe in a very late game scenario I can see it working... but at that point you might as well replicate the ghosts.
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
All of those units are massive, and you can't replicate massive units. To my knowledge, that's the only limit though
Honestly, I don't see the point of replicating your own units. The only one I can see that is worthwhile is the immortal (assuming the replicator build time is significantly less than the immortal build time).
Maybe replicating voids against zerg in the late game (after they transition to broods) to get a quick transition to air?
I feel like this unit is going to be scrapped at some point.
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
It would also let us basically skip researching storm, since the replicant comes with all unit specific upgrades.
On October 25 2011 00:45 DoomsVille wrote: Honestly, I don't see the point of replicating your own units. The only one I can see that is worthwhile is the immortal (assuming the replicator build time is significantly less than the immortal build time).
Maybe replicating voids against zerg in the late game (after they transition to broods) to get a quick transition to air?
I feel like this unit is going to be scrapped at some point.
You can replicate the other persons units not yours
What energy will the replicator have when it replicates a unit? Does it copy old unit, restart at whatever the starting cost is, have its own energy that is unchanged or go straight to 200?
If it went straight to 200 and you could replicate hallucinated units then you could produce 2 replicators. The first replicates a Sentry. This guy now has hallucination since he gets all abilities researched. Then you hallucinate High Templar. Second Replicant replicates High Templar and has Storm + 200 energy.
That could be interesting, but I am guessing replicators do not start with 200 energy.
I personally feel replicant is a big joke of an unit unless some sorts of restrictions can be put to this( Limited number of replicated unit, lower quality,... ). Overall I still feel the idea of ' stealing ' an enemy unit to counter them is a bit pathetic and shows how desperate the balance situation Blizzard has put themselves into. It's just bad for Esports. People don't pick Protoss to play Zerg/Terran units and I don't see how exciting ghosts EMP-ing each other can be. It's just totally retarded and bad game design.
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
They said you can replicate a worker currently, but if it becomes a problem they'll fix it.
Replicating your own units seems like a more interesting concept personally, you can adjust your own composition just prior to an engagement. Replicating any of opponents units seems a tad counter intuitive personally. Essentially by replicating one of their units you're simply saying I'm going to do what you are doing, but better. If a terran is going tanks TvP they already are playing the positional game, why do you want to replicate a tank to try and play their game back at them, especially considering you paid more for yours? Obviously the replicant would be quite useful for stopping tech based timing plays such as the 1-1-1, but in the current state of the game there are very few units ZvP and TvP which would justify replication. You aren't going to get a siege tank to replicate if your opponent is going bio, yet bio is what it would be most useful against.
Edited out an obvious mistake =P And with it went the only personally interesting concept regarding the unit >< sorry for the trouble.
^ no massive units. I don't think seige tanks are as good as with T the biggest problem with 1-1-1 is the banshee which is a weak unit to replicate because they already have marines.
The good thing with 1-1-1 is that everything works so well together. Raven does not help vs it, Banshees are not that good vs it. Stalkers are very maneuverable but weak tanks are not. Marines complement the tanks so much better than stalkers.
With the Gas and pop limit it feels like the only thing worth using it on is SCV (for orbitals) Voidrays/immortals (for tech switches on the fly) and situationly casters.
On October 25 2011 00:49 TrueRedemption wrote: Why not replicate a 300/200 6 food colossus, you're only paying 200/200 4 food?
I'm getting sick of telling people that you can't replicate massive unit. Please educate yourselves regarding the new units before posting ideas.
On October 25 2011 00:51 Eppa! wrote: With the Gas and pop limit it feels like the only thing worth using it on is SCV (for orbitals) Voidrays/immortals (for tech switches on the fly) and situationly casters.
I love this idea. I'm not sure it is viable, but the idea that you could tech switch from an Immortal to a Void Ray (who both cost around 200-200 anyway) is awesome.
On October 24 2011 23:58 VTPerfect wrote: To be perfectly honest I think the best use of this unit is in conjunction with some sort of 2 base warp prism harass. the harass hopefully does some damage but the important part is gaining vision of your terran opponents SCV, using the Replicator to morph into an SCV and then gain access to quasi fixes to the real problems with Protoss IE producing ghosts to emp their ghosts, medivacs cuz your units can't heal, vikings cause you don't have an Air to Air armor bonus unit etc etc etc.
I still think this is awful cause at this point your not playing Protoss your plating Proran and Prozerg and i didnt pick Protoss to use Ran and Zerg units but its pretty much ur best bet.
This will never work. You have to go down the protoss and terran tech trees at once. Investment in production/tech is going to put you far behind in army. Maybe in a very late game scenario I can see it working... but at that point you might as well replicate the ghosts.
thats not true, terran tech is the fastest cheapest thing in the world scv - cc - rax - tech lab + ghost academy at same time - ghost. Plus since ghost academy is a mere 50 gas and ghost is 100 gas it won't interfere too badly with colossus tech. Though i've heard that ghost emp got a major nerf in HotS which might in itself solve at least one problem, but you also need to figure that a huge disadvantage protoss has in PvT lategame is terran get to sac 40 of their 75 or so workers and replace them with orbital muling and have more supply in army. This would allow Protoss to do the same and perhaps it wont make sense early/mid game you'de be stupid not to do it late game.
You can get a really early scv replicant if you open 1gate robo into obs + replicator, takes an scv and your first exp can be already an command center.
Also if its unlimited range, then it opens up a wide range of possiblities , with obs being anywhere, you can do a suprise fungal or emp with cloacked ghosts.
Oh god this would make wonders if hold position lurkers would be still in game
A 1/1/1 is moving towards your base. A single replicator would stop it. This is the most powerful use of the replicator that I was able to come up with. Replicating a single siege tank would take marines down. A second replicator could be used to get a banshee to work over his tanks or the marines who survive the tank, or perform a counterharass. Getting a worker would be an incredible risk. It would be a long time before it would pay for itself. The whole point of the unit is that you pay a little extra resources in order to get strategic access to a unit that you normally do not have access to. Tanks or Ghosts, and possibly Ravens seem like they would be more appropriate. Fungal Growth may be an interesting thing, but in all honesty infestors seem like they are more specialized for Zerg, and would be less useful on the protoss. I am assuming that only the replicated unit gets access to the upgrade and not all the units. Otherwise this would turn PvP into a ridiculous stagnant tech fight... kinda like it has always been. Viper may be fun... Getting to inject a detect onto an Immortal would be useful, but of course all the Vipers ability would be cool for protoss. Swarm Host have yet to be seen.
Realistically, I only see uses for replicators against Terran and Vipers.
But I think their presence in the tech tree is going to change all the matchups considerably. I am looking forward to it!
- Banshees (self explanatory) - Ghost (emp, need i say more?) - Medvacs (situational, might be good it if you have a lot of injured zealots but other than that its - not really worth it, zealots get bursted down too fast in fights) - Ravens (if you ever see one in PvT other than 1-1-1 get this for PDD to laugh at marauders and vikings) - Tanks vs 1-1-1
vs Z
Infestors (storm + fungal = lol) Viper maybe good to ambush broodlords/swarm hosts with reverse dark swarm / general ranged unit disruption but zerg armies tend to form concaves really on creep and if you are fighting on a choke you are most likely going to crush them anyway.
vs P
Oracle if your opponent went stargate you can save yourself the 150/150 to build it. Maybe copy a templar before he morphs them into archons to get a free storm.
Note: I'm not even counting workers because you would lose nothing from say morphing an scv, building a CC as your 3rd base and suddenly you have their whole tech tree available. That is near impossible to balance imho.
On October 25 2011 00:49 TrueRedemption wrote: They said you can replicate a worker currently, but if it becomes a problem they'll fix it.
Replicating your own units seems like a more interesting concept personally, you can adjust your own composition just prior to an engagement. Replicating any of opponents units seems a tad counter intuitive personally. Essentially by replicating one of their units you're simply saying I'm going to do what you are doing, but better. If a terran is going tanks TvP they already are playing the positional game, why do you want to replicate a tank to try and play their game back at them, especially considering you paid more for yours? Obviously the replicant would be quite useful for stopping tech based timing plays such as the 1-1-1, but in the current state of the game there are very few units ZvP and TvP which would justify replication. You aren't going to get a siege tank to replicate if your opponent is going bio, yet bio is what it would be most useful against.
I am unsure of the cost of a tempest, but currently the most intriguing part of this unit to me would be the ability for protoss to raise their food cap. Why not replicate a 300/200 6 food colossus, you're only paying 200/200 4 food? If you're going for a timing attack the replicant will likely have a faster build time, and you can save the 200/200 you would've put into thermal lance and instead attack with one 6 range colossus and three 9 range replicants. Alternatively for every replicated colossus in the death ball you can throw in an additional stalker, making your 200/200 that much more powerful. Its only a tiny advantage compared to standard, but considering what the other races were getting protoss are going to need all the help they can get.
I think stopping the 1-1-1 is one of the biggest factors this unit has. Replicating a medivac to heal (properly heal beyond shield regeneration, I mean) will probably also be popular, as well as ghosts/infestors and SCVs, primarily to repair the mechanical much more than trying to follow the Terran tech tree.
On October 25 2011 00:45 DoomsVille wrote: Honestly, I don't see the point of replicating your own units. The only one I can see that is worthwhile is the immortal (assuming the replicator build time is significantly less than the immortal build time).
Maybe replicating voids against zerg in the late game (after they transition to broods) to get a quick transition to air?
I feel like this unit is going to be scrapped at some point.
The replicant makes tech switches much easier. Besides the obvious fact that you can "make" units of from other tech trees from the robo it will also has the tech you might not have researched yet. Replicate a high templar and you get storm + 200 energy on it, replicate a warp prism and it has speed etc. Long term however (because of its high resource and supply cost) you would be better getting its respective production building, researching its tech etc.
Copying enemy units could (will?) get removed completely and it would still fill an important and very unique function.
On October 25 2011 00:53 Yaotzin wrote: The only reliable uses seem to be screwing up timing attacks and stealing useful casters (ghosts, infestors etc). Think this will get scrapped.
The Replicant is a very cheese/gimmicky unit. It can't be useful for standard play, since it either will simply be overpowered (ie building replicants is more efficient than getting the unit normally somehow) or under powered (ie building replicants is less efficient than getting the unit normally somehow). There really isn't an in between.
It is an awful idea for a unit. The Oracle is the same. One base timings that phase out bunkers/spines/pool/barracks/ect in combination with a heavy gate push will also be imbalanced. And its usefulness in standard play will be very limited because it has only 100hp and can't do anything to stop units from protecting mineral lines (especially since the mineral fields have only 75 hp, just post 8 Marines in your mineral line and even if you don't shoot down the Oracle, the mining time lost will be less than 2 seconds with 8 Marines).
Replicating a DT if you open robo and they DT rush would be pretty hilarious.
lmfao build order win x2. I hard-counter the dt tech and they have no obs ^^
The ability to replicate Terran units is pretty sweet How far from the unit do I have to be to replicate it? Can I get within range of a sieged siege tank to replicate it?
On October 25 2011 00:51 Eppa! wrote: With the Gas and pop limit it feels like the only thing worth using it on is SCV (for orbitals) Voidrays/immortals (for tech switches on the fly) and situationly casters.
I love this idea. I'm not sure it is viable, but the idea that you could tech switch from an Immortal to a Void Ray (who both cost around 200-200 anyway) is awesome.
I mean the Idea is to have the option of doing it so Zerg has to prepare for both.
I hate this units idea beyond belief. Replace it with a stronger macro mechanic, mule and inject are so much better than chrono. Larvae lets you build drones then build a bunch of units without putting you down because of the production of hatches. Mules gives extra income for free.
Replicating a DT if you open robo and they DT rush would be pretty hilarious.
lmfao build order win x2. I hard-counter the dt tech and they have no obs ^^
The ability to replicate Terran units is pretty sweet How far from the unit do I have to be to replicate it? Can I get within range of a sieged siege tank to replicate it?
Range is unlimited, you just need vision of the unit to replicate it.
On October 25 2011 00:53 Yaotzin wrote: The only reliable uses seem to be screwing up timing attacks and stealing useful casters (ghosts, infestors etc). Think this will get scrapped.
The Replicant is a very cheese/gimmicky unit. It can't be useful for standard play, since it either will simply be overpowered (ie build replicators is more efficient than getting the unit normally somehow) or under powered (ie building replicators is less efficient than getting the unit normally somehow). There really isn't an in between.
Yes I don't really like it. It has no reliable niche. Well I guess it could develop one - say replicating infestors - but it will be such a small niche, and one consisting of stealing another race's unit...don't like.
It is an awful idea for a unit. The Oracle is the same. One base timings that phase out bunkers/spines/pool/barracks/ect in combination with a heavy gate push will also be imbalanced. And its usefulness in standard play will be very limited because it has only 100hp and can't do anything to stop units from protecting mineral lines.
The only way a one base timing with stargate+oracle+warpgates will work, is if the Zerg is laughing so hard he forgets to crush you.
Yes, you could "mass" some of your own units for emergency (Immortals mostly I'd say, maybe VR's, everything else is either not worth the costs or massive) but the main purpose seems to be to replicate "the shit that's consistantly killing you" (Ghosts, Tanks in 1-1-1). And that's just another way of saying "we have no idea to fix your problems, but here's a cutesy little unit that can copy things so you'll have access to the same arsenal".
SCV's could be nice though for Orbital + Mules or Bunkers maybe (if you can put in Stalkers/Immortals - although that thought sadens me...). Also Medivacs, Raven, Ghosts & Infestors - but thinking about playing Proran or Prozerg is just "terrible, terrible damage"
On October 24 2011 23:58 VTPerfect wrote: To be perfectly honest I think the best use of this unit is in conjunction with some sort of 2 base warp prism harass. the harass hopefully does some damage but the important part is gaining vision of your terran opponents SCV, using the Replicator to morph into an SCV and then gain access to quasi fixes to the real problems with Protoss IE producing ghosts to emp their ghosts, medivacs cuz your units can't heal, vikings cause you don't have an Air to Air armor bonus unit etc etc etc.
I still think this is awful cause at this point your not playing Protoss your plating Proran and Prozerg and i didnt pick Protoss to use Ran and Zerg units but its pretty much ur best bet.
This will never work. You have to go down the protoss and terran tech trees at once. Investment in production/tech is going to put you far behind in army. Maybe in a very late game scenario I can see it working... but at that point you might as well replicate the ghosts.
thats not true, terran tech is the fastest cheapest thing in the world scv - cc - rax - tech lab + ghost academy at same time - ghost. Plus since ghost academy is a mere 50 gas and ghost is 100 gas it won't interfere too badly with colossus tech. Though i've heard that ghost emp got a major nerf in HotS which might in itself solve at least one problem, but you also need to figure that a huge disadvantage protoss has in PvT lategame is terran get to sac 40 of their 75 or so workers and replace them with orbital muling and have more supply in army. This would allow Protoss to do the same and perhaps it wont make sense early/mid game you'de be stupid not to do it late game.
Yea I agree with that. It would be useful for orbitals as well. But the thousand some odd resources that go into producing ghosts for the purposes of EMPing seems pointless when you can just use that first replicator to replicate a ghost... Anyways, I guess it doesn't matter since blizzard seems to be determined to fix the ghost/emp anyways.
I think eppa! has got it though. It's only useful for scvs (orbitals), quick tech switches and spellcasters.
Honestly, I don't see how this unit doesn't get scrapped. Do you know how scared I would be (as a zerg) to have my infestors replicated? Fungal destroys zerg (since we get outranged by everything). I would probably never make infestors in ZvP unless I'm sure my opponent doesn't have a robo lol
Replicator are scary in PvT because they will prevent terran from getting Raven almost entierly. PDD on protoss side is ten time more effective than in terran side.
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
On October 25 2011 01:01 Yaotzin wrote: The only way a one base timing with stargate+oracle+warpgates will work, is if the Zerg is laughing so hard he forgets to crush you.
Oracle will be awesome.
Imagine this. I am one basing and I move out. Before you spot my units and can allocate larva toward unit production to stop me I send a Oracle in your base and phase out your spawning Pool and Roach Warren. No Zerglings, Spines, Queens or Roaches for you. When I reach your base I FF your ramp from the main to the natural to cut reinforcements, and if you happen to have some Spine Crawlers already up, I phase them out with another Oracle. All the while I am warping in reinforcements.
It would be incredibly powerful vs any Zerg player who plays reactively, since I am taking away your ability to react. This all depends on the timings. I imagine based on the cost of the Oracle, that you could get two out quicker than you could get two Void Rays out. So imagine a Gate 3-4 push currently that involves Void Rays, but this time it has Oracles. Would be much, much stronger.
Also I could send an Oracle in with Void Rays/Phoenixes from a proxy Stargate location and phase out your Spawning pool and Evolution chamber. No reactive Queens or Spore Crawlers for you. GG.
The Oracle and Replicant are super cheesy units that won't be useful in standard play since Replicants will always be more inefficient than normally producing units except for Replicating units like a Siege Tank that doesn't have Siege or an early Banshee (and both of these instances are cheesy), and Oracles can be stopped simply by placing a few units in your mineral line. Even if they don't kill the Oracle, the mineral shields will go so fast that you'll lose no more than a few seconds of mining time and it will take forever for the Oracle to pay for itself.
However, they will more than make up for the cheese ability lost when Protoss loses the ability to warp in from a low ground pylon on to the high ground.
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
you guys read nothing
NO MASSIV UNITS
so its always more expensive to build a replicator !
Protoss: have fun playing against mass marines and zerglings, until the full tech switch, in which you won´t have enough economy to make a single replicant.
On October 25 2011 01:06 dbosworld wrote: If you were to replicate a queen, would you be able to spread creap on your opponents creep, therefore giving you vision?
Yes... but why wouldn't they just kill your queen/tumor...?
How can protoss complain about the replicator? This unit seems insanely strong.
Ghosts, siege tanks, ravens, and banshees from terran. Keep in the mind mech will become much more common in HOTS in tvp so siege tanks will always be available. And one raven with full energy and 2 pdds pretty much negates your opponents vikings.
On October 25 2011 01:06 dbosworld wrote: If you were to replicate a queen, would you be able to spread creap on your opponents creep, therefore giving you vision?
Yes... but why wouldn't they just kill your queen/tumor...?
They could, its just a thought though. Depending on when you can get the unit, maybe you can get the unit prior to them getting detector. I dunno.
On October 25 2011 01:11 Gimix wrote: How can protoss complain about the replicator? This unit seems insanely strong.
Ghosts, siege tanks, ravens, and banshees from terran. Keep in the mind mech will become much more common in HOTS in tvp so siege tanks will always be available. And one raven with full energy and 2 pdds pretty much negates your opponents vikings.
I'm sure it could be plenty strong, I don't have a problem with it for that reason. Problem is I can only see two outcomes for it:
1) A gimmicky, responsive unit, used to stop certain timing pushes by changing the composition you have, giving you a tank to hold them off or somesuch. 2) The metagame results in easy access to replicated ravens, tanks etc. They become a regular part of your army.
I don't like 1 because it's reactive and gimmicky. I don't like 2 because it make Protoss less Protossy.
Seems to me the replicant will only be useful in certain scenarios (for example replicating a caster to turn the tide of a battle). It is in no way a unit meant to be mass produced. 200/200 and 4 supply is a hefty cost. If you are even economically with your opponent and churn out replicas, you'll end up with an inferior army because the units you stole cost more to you than your opponent and you'll just lose.
well since the replicant is 100 mins cheaper than a collosus, instead of cranking out collosus, why not just get 4-5 replicants, wait to see what you are dealing with and then go from there, turn them into ghosts, immortals, brood lords, infestors. This unit has the potentional to change the entire way Protoss is played!
On October 25 2011 01:06 dbosworld wrote: If you were to replicate a queen, would you be able to spread creap on your opponents creep, therefore giving you vision?
Rofl, i wonder why zerg don't do this in ZvZ.... Oh thats right cuz you can't possibly get away with it...
I'm surprised no one mentioned that if you replicate an scv and get more scvs, you can repair your own units. Thing about scvs repairing collosus, or scvs repairing immortals.
On October 25 2011 01:16 OreoBoi wrote: I'm surprised no one mentioned that if you replicate an scv and get more scvs, you can repair your own units. Thing about scvs repairing collosus, or scvs repairing immortals.
SCVs can't repair Toss units can they? Couldn't in BW anyway IIRC..only healing works?
On October 25 2011 01:14 Balgrog wrote: well since the replicant is 100 mins cheaper than a collosus, instead of cranking out collosus, why not just get 4-5 replicants, wait to see what you are dealing with and then go from there, turn them into ghosts, immortals, brood lords, infestors. This unit has the potentional to change the entire way Protoss is played!
Yes, because what it actually does is CHANGING THE FUCKING RACE YOU'RE PLAYING!
On October 25 2011 01:14 Balgrog wrote: well since the replicant is 100 mins cheaper than a collosus, instead of cranking out collosus, why not just get 4-5 replicants, wait to see what you are dealing with and then go from there, turn them into ghosts, immortals, brood lords, infestors. This unit has the potentional to change the entire way Protoss is played!
On October 25 2011 01:16 OreoBoi wrote: I'm surprised no one mentioned that if you replicate an scv and get more scvs, you can repair your own units. Thing about scvs repairing collosus, or scvs repairing immortals.
SCVs can't repair Toss units can they? Couldn't in BW anyway IIRC..only healing works?
They can, works in team games too (also Medivacs healing your ally's units f.e.).
On October 25 2011 01:14 Balgrog wrote: well since the replicant is 100 mins cheaper than a collosus, instead of cranking out collosus, why not just get 4-5 replicants, wait to see what you are dealing with and then go from there, turn them into ghosts, immortals, brood lords, infestors. This unit has the potentional to change the entire way Protoss is played!
One more time... DOESNT WORK ON MASSIVE
Hehe, that's what I wanted to answer first - but read again, he's not saying that
On October 25 2011 01:14 SaetZero wrote: 2v2 toss/zerg team
toss opens robo, zerg opens 1 base spire
replicate allied corrupter.... 5-6 min brood lord harass
if it works.... hahahahaha
Protoss gunna replicate your greater spire too?
Replicated units have all the spells the unit gets, even if they weren't researched. So it depends if morph BL counts.
Brood lord morphing is not a spell or ability. It is a morph as part of the tech tree. You don't research Brood Lord morph. You activate it with greater spire.
On October 25 2011 01:06 dbosworld wrote: If you were to replicate a queen, would you be able to spread creap on your opponents creep, therefore giving you vision?
Rofl, i wonder why zerg don't do this in ZvZ.... Oh thats right cuz you can't possibly get away with it...
Well, it would take forever to get your queen to their side until late game when creep is spread out. Replicant can walk to the creep first then replicate the queen. Seems kind of a waste of 200/200 though, why not just build a few observers?
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
too bad everything except massive units are less than 200/200/4 so it would be completely pointless?
On October 25 2011 00:46 wiredrat wrote: Can you replicate mules? Will them last forever? That would be awesome for Protoss players
^^this. would be so worth it.
But seriously, it seems like although this unit could have some fun, niche applications, it would never see widespread use because the cost (so far) is prohibitive and it would lead to a much smaller army in exchange for a couple units that your opponent obviously has at well, but got much cheaper. I'm not saying getting one cloaked ghost to EMP enemy ghosts, getting one Medivac to heal your army after engagements, getting one DT against an enemy without a robo/forge wouldn't be incredible... but since the replicant isn't able to copy massive units, it will never be a cost-efficient way to mass units (or quick tech switch like getting 4 replicants, see enemy go roach and get a total of 5 immortals quickly- it's just not useful because you've expended so many resources).
So although obviously we should wait for the beta, in theory this just doesn't help solve a lot of our problems.
Edit: or Brood lords. 'cuz that'd be both cheaper and just plain awesome.
What about replicating a drone and taking your expo's all as a zerg and keeping all your tech in your main. You could have a Protoss army with a Zerg economy
On October 25 2011 01:16 OreoBoi wrote: I'm surprised no one mentioned that if you replicate an scv and get more scvs, you can repair your own units. Thing about scvs repairing collosus, or scvs repairing immortals.
SCVs can't repair Toss units can they? Couldn't in BW anyway IIRC..only healing works?
They can, works in team games too (also Medivacs healing your ally's units f.e.).
Scvs to protect your colossi sounds like a very, very good use of replicator. Perhaps a little too powerful.
I would use it in PvT to replicate a SCV, not to go to the terran tech path, but to build CCs and get mules and scans, while being able to repair your own robos. What you'd gain from SCV workers and Mules would justify the 200/200 for the first one, I think someone else put it well that trying to go down both tech paths would strain your resources too much.
On October 25 2011 01:16 OreoBoi wrote: I'm surprised no one mentioned that if you replicate an scv and get more scvs, you can repair your own units. Thing about scvs repairing collosus, or scvs repairing immortals.
SCVs can't repair Toss units can they? Couldn't in BW anyway IIRC..only healing works?
They can, works in team games too (also Medivacs healing your ally's units f.e.).
Scvs to protect your colossi sounds like a very, very good use of replicator. Perhaps a little too powerful.
The difference is that each one of those is a 200/200 scv, not a 50 mineral scv. Thems is some expensive workers.
On October 25 2011 01:22 Sir Cleve wrote: What about replicating a drone and taking your expo's all as a zerg and keeping all your tech in your main. You could have a Protoss army with a Zerg economy
On October 25 2011 01:16 OreoBoi wrote: I'm surprised no one mentioned that if you replicate an scv and get more scvs, you can repair your own units. Thing about scvs repairing collosus, or scvs repairing immortals.
SCVs can't repair Toss units can they? Couldn't in BW anyway IIRC..only healing works?
They can, works in team games too (also Medivacs healing your ally's units f.e.).
Scvs to protect your colossi sounds like a very, very good use of replicator. Perhaps a little too powerful.
The difference is that each one of those is a 200/200 scv, not a 50 mineral scv. Thems is some expensive workers.
No, just the first scv, who builds a CC. Plus you would get mules and scans.
On October 25 2011 01:16 OreoBoi wrote: I'm surprised no one mentioned that if you replicate an scv and get more scvs, you can repair your own units. Thing about scvs repairing collosus, or scvs repairing immortals.
SCVs can't repair Toss units can they? Couldn't in BW anyway IIRC..only healing works?
They can, works in team games too (also Medivacs healing your ally's units f.e.).
Scvs to protect your colossi sounds like a very, very good use of replicator. Perhaps a little too powerful.
The difference is that each one of those is a 200/200 scv, not a 50 mineral scv. Thems is some expensive workers.
Plus 1 worker worth 4 supply. Nay, "massing" SCV's is not worth the cost.
On October 25 2011 01:16 OreoBoi wrote: I'm surprised no one mentioned that if you replicate an scv and get more scvs, you can repair your own units. Thing about scvs repairing collosus, or scvs repairing immortals.
SCVs can't repair Toss units can they? Couldn't in BW anyway IIRC..only healing works?
They can, works in team games too (also Medivacs healing your ally's units f.e.).
Scvs to protect your colossi sounds like a very, very good use of replicator. Perhaps a little too powerful.
The difference is that each one of those is a 200/200 scv, not a 50 mineral scv. Thems is some expensive workers.
Well I assume you'd build a CC for any SCVs after the first one. 200/200 + 500(CC+depot) +50x, x being the number of SCVs.
On October 25 2011 01:25 nalgene wrote: Why don't they give you an extra 200 supply if you get the scv? ???? You'd still have to make all the required buildings/supply depots? No?
No. Any units from the terran or zerg tech path will use your original 200 supply. You could technically build depots, pylons or overlords to increase your supply, but pylons seem the best option.
I was under the impression that they build quickly, so I'd use them for a mid game switch to a crap ton of void rays very quickly. Void Rays are similar in cost, and take forever to build. This way, we can get out 6-7 void rays when they are least expecting it very quickly. That's the first thing I'm going to do with them.
On October 25 2011 01:06 dbosworld wrote: If you were to replicate a queen, would you be able to spread creap on your opponents creep, therefore giving you vision?
Rofl, i wonder why zerg don't do this in ZvZ.... Oh thats right cuz you can't possibly get away with it...
Certainly not all the way. Like I said, it's just a thought as this is possible units replicators can replicate thread. Not viability thread.
I think in order to prevent this unit from being entirely broken, each replicant should have energy, and if you chose to copy an spellcaster, you begin with that amount of energy instead of 75 or 200 or whatever Blizzard chooses, so it has the ability to cast spells right away, but also requires micro, you cant just spam what you replicate or the ones with more energy may become tanks instead of ghosts. This is coming from a Protoss player who is concerned about needing to use other race's units, but not wanting Protoss to be viewed as broken again.
Do you have to scout what you want to replicate first? Or is it simply that if it's on the map, you can build it?
Because if it's the latter, I'd gladly pay 200/200 and leave it unreplicated, and I'd have an exact picture of any tech switching that my opponent was doing. Knowing when the first medevac shows up, when the first viking shows up, when the Colossus pops, and when Infestors start showing up is all going to be a huge amount of extra information. Why even bother with observers other than for detection when I can do all this from the comfort and safety of my base?
On October 25 2011 01:32 FilmNoir wrote: I think in order to prevent this unit from being entirely broken, each replicant should have energy, and if you chose to copy an spellcaster, you begin with that amount of energy instead of 75 or 200 or whatever Blizzard chooses, so it has the ability to cast spells right away, but also requires micro, you cant just spam what you replicate or the ones with more energy may become tanks instead of ghosts. This is coming from a Protoss player who is concerned about needing to use other race's units, but not wanting Protoss to be viewed as broken again.
But, then it'd hardly be useful. I mean, they cost 200/200, which is really expensive. If they had energy like that I doubt I'd ever get them.
On October 25 2011 01:35 TrickyGilligan wrote: So, unlimited range spell.
Do you have to scout what you want to replicate first? Or is it simply that if it's on the map, you can build it?
Because if it's the latter, I'd gladly pay 200/200 and leave it unreplicated, and I'd have an exact picture of any tech switching that my opponent was doing. Knowing when the first medevac shows up, when the first viking shows up, when the Colossus pops, and when Infestors start showing up is all going to be a huge amount of extra information. Why even bother with observers other than for detection when I can do all this from the comfort and safety of my base?
It's an unlimited range targeted spell, so you need vision of the unit you want to replicate.
On October 25 2011 01:32 FilmNoir wrote: I think in order to prevent this unit from being entirely broken, each replicant should have energy, and if you chose to copy an spellcaster, you begin with that amount of energy instead of 75 or 200 or whatever Blizzard chooses, so it has the ability to cast spells right away, but also requires micro, you cant just spam what you replicate or the ones with more energy may become tanks instead of ghosts. This is coming from a Protoss player who is concerned about needing to use other race's units, but not wanting Protoss to be viewed as broken again.
But, then it'd hardly be useful. I mean, they cost 200/200, which is really expensive. If they had energy like that I doubt I'd ever get them.
If you get them early, they still have time to build up energy, plus if they start around 75 energy, you can still cast almost any spell in the game right away from spawning. Plus you can use them to get spells that the other player may not even have yet, so they still have plenty of utility, but if they all start with 200 energy, the unit will most likely be ridiculously OP.
I believe the point of this unit will be pvp above the other matchups: Robo vs 3 gate blink stalker? Yay I have blink too. Robo vs stargate? Well my vrs cost 50 gas instead of 50 mins. But I also have more units available. You go templar? Well I also do, but I was going robo before and still I have storm at the same time like you.
On October 25 2011 01:32 FilmNoir wrote: I think in order to prevent this unit from being entirely broken, each replicant should have energy, and if you chose to copy an spellcaster, you begin with that amount of energy instead of 75 or 200 or whatever Blizzard chooses, so it has the ability to cast spells right away, but also requires micro, you cant just spam what you replicate or the ones with more energy may become tanks instead of ghosts. This is coming from a Protoss player who is concerned about needing to use other race's units, but not wanting Protoss to be viewed as broken again.
But, then it'd hardly be useful. I mean, they cost 200/200, which is really expensive. If they had energy like that I doubt I'd ever get them.
If you get them early, they still have time to build up energy, plus if they start around 75 energy, you can still cast almost any spell in the game right away from spawning. Plus you can use them to get spells that the other player may not even have yet, so they still have plenty of utility, but if they all start with 200 energy, the unit will most likely be ridiculously OP.
I misread the original post. My mistake. This is not a bad idea.
On October 25 2011 01:14 Balgrog wrote: well since the replicant is 100 mins cheaper than a collosus, instead of cranking out collosus, why not just get 4-5 replicants, wait to see what you are dealing with and then go from there, turn them into ghosts, immortals, brood lords, infestors. This unit has the potentional to change the entire way Protoss is played!
One more time... DOESNT WORK ON MASSIVE
Oh reread.
Yea forgot about that, but still, PvP with ghost's would be really interesting.
On October 25 2011 01:16 OreoBoi wrote: I'm surprised no one mentioned that if you replicate an scv and get more scvs, you can repair your own units. Thing about scvs repairing collosus, or scvs repairing immortals.
SCVs can't repair Toss units can they? Couldn't in BW anyway IIRC..only healing works?
They can, works in team games too (also Medivacs healing your ally's units f.e.).
Scvs to protect your colossi sounds like a very, very good use of replicator. Perhaps a little too powerful.
The difference is that each one of those is a 200/200 scv, not a 50 mineral scv. Thems is some expensive workers.
Plus 1 worker worth 4 supply. Nay, "massing" SCV's is not worth the cost.
Then kill that scv after it does it's job(building the CC)
On October 25 2011 01:38 Mafe wrote: I believe the point of this unit will be pvp above the other matchups: Robo vs 3 gate blink stalker? Yay I have blink too. Robo vs stargate? Well my vrs cost 50 gas instead of 50 mins. But I also have more units available. You go templar? Well I also do, but I was going robo before and still I have storm at the same time like you.
So you can't 4 gate because pylon power fields don't reach the high ground.
And if you go Void Rays than your Voids can be copied at around the same cost and you'll die since your opponent will also have access to Robo units too. If you go for DT's I just replicate your DT and if you don't have detection you die, if you do, I am ahead due to what you spent on the Dark Shrine. I guess opening Blink is still somewhat viable, but basically the changes until this point in HOTS means than Colossus Wars is coming, and you can't stop it...
On October 25 2011 01:35 TrickyGilligan wrote: So, unlimited range spell.
Do you have to scout what you want to replicate first? Or is it simply that if it's on the map, you can build it?
Because if it's the latter, I'd gladly pay 200/200 and leave it unreplicated, and I'd have an exact picture of any tech switching that my opponent was doing. Knowing when the first medevac shows up, when the first viking shows up, when the Colossus pops, and when Infestors start showing up is all going to be a huge amount of extra information. Why even bother with observers other than for detection when I can do all this from the comfort and safety of my base?
It's an unlimited range targeted spell, so you need vision of the unit you want to replicate.
if only some kind of invisible sight giving unit that could fly to their base also came from the robo
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
No.. 200/200 is already kind of expensive.. Everything we have costs an arm and a leg.. Quiet with your nonsense
On October 25 2011 01:14 Balgrog wrote: well since the replicant is 100 mins cheaper than a collosus, instead of cranking out collosus, why not just get 4-5 replicants, wait to see what you are dealing with and then go from there, turn them into ghosts, immortals, brood lords, infestors. This unit has the potentional to change the entire way Protoss is played!
One more time... DOESNT WORK ON MASSIVE
Oh reread.
Yea forgot about that, but still, PvP with ghost's would be really interesting.
...I still don't think you quite get how this works.
Which Protoss is going to build the Ghost first so that the other one can replicate it?
On October 25 2011 01:38 VirgilSC2 wrote: If we replicate a MULE, is it permanent?
Maybe that will finally make Blizzard realize that MULE's are a bit OP.
well you still paid 200/200 for that mule and a bunch of supply still think it would be worth it?
Considering that one MULE > 4 Probes, I could just throw away Probes once I reached max supply. Plus, if MULEs are even remotely OP at 200/200 and 4 Supply, how can Blizzard say they're balanced at 50 Energy, no supply, no cost?
Replicators, as of now, have a 30 second build time... so using them to build immortals to refill after a big engagement is worth it... seeing as you can have 3 immortals in the time it takes to make ONE (chronoboosted replicators vs unchronoboosted immortal)
Also, replicated units come with all applicable tech already researched... even if the enemy didn't have the research! Imagine siege containing a Terran before he had siege tech or neuralling a Zerg's infestor to fungal their army before they had neural! XDDD
As the replicator is a flying unit, I'm thinking maybe, using it in conjunction with mass recall, to get immortal harass without using a warp prism, so instead of spending 200/0 on a warp prism, you spend 200/200 on the replicator and get an immortal and harassment done, and on the way there if you see your opponent is going banshees, you can replicate a banshee instead and recall them home safely.
And if your opponent is going marines, zerglings or mutas, you can always keep the replicator or bring home a worker. Instead of thinking of this unit to stop one strategy, to take over one unit, I think the cost was meant to discourage that, and was meant to be used as a sneaky little fucker.
late game, mass recalling around a few siegetanks in siege mode around to defend bases would be kick arse, if you could get a viper it would be well worth the cost of the replicator to make all of his roaches/hydras useless, and be able to detect them running slowly burrowing away.
And we haven't even begun to think about the BM this unit would enable... Protoss will have the ultimate BM of replicating marines and making them dance!
On October 25 2011 01:14 Balgrog wrote: well since the replicant is 100 mins cheaper than a collosus, instead of cranking out collosus, why not just get 4-5 replicants, wait to see what you are dealing with and then go from there, turn them into ghosts, immortals, brood lords, infestors. This unit has the potentional to change the entire way Protoss is played!
One more time... DOESNT WORK ON MASSIVE
Oh reread.
Yea forgot about that, but still, PvP with ghost's would be really interesting.
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
No.. 200/200 is already kind of expensive.. Everything we have costs an arm and a leg.. Quiet with your nonsense
Archons, Colossi, and Tempests are massive. You cannot replicate Massive units.
On October 25 2011 01:14 Balgrog wrote: well since the replicant is 100 mins cheaper than a collosus, instead of cranking out collosus, why not just get 4-5 replicants, wait to see what you are dealing with and then go from there, turn them into ghosts, immortals, brood lords, infestors. This unit has the potentional to change the entire way Protoss is played!
One more time... DOESNT WORK ON MASSIVE
Oh reread.
Yea forgot about that, but still, PvP with ghost's would be really interesting.
I would think using these with speed-upgraded warp prisms would be pretty nifty in PvT. Fly an observer over his production facilities and wait for something cool to pop out. Tanks, banshees, whatever. Have a warp prism (maybe with speed) nearby with a replicator in it. Fly in, unload, change the replicator to whatever that unit was, load back up and fly home. Now you can make as many of those as you want in the safety of your main with more replicators...
Edit: didn't realize you could do this from your base anyway, I thought you needed line of sight.
On October 25 2011 01:53 Iranon wrote: I would think using these with speed-upgraded warp prisms would be pretty nifty in PvT. Fly an observer over his production facilities and wait for something cool to pop out. Tanks, banshees, whatever. Have a warp prism (maybe with speed) nearby with a replicator in it. Fly in, unload, change the replicator to whatever that unit was, load back up and fly home. Now you can make as many of those as you want in the safety of your main with more replicators...
Not necessary, you can replicate in the safety of your main already, since the skill is unlimited range.
1. Build Colossus and replicants. 2. Zerg opponent responds with corruptors. 3. Convert all replicants to corruptors. 4. The replicated corruptors get all corruptor abilities, including Broodlord Morph. 5. Morph your replicated corruptors into Broodlords. 6. Kill your opponent with the invincible colossus/broodlord/stalker deathball.
On October 25 2011 00:34 FagaX wrote: Didn't they say that you cannot replicate workers?
No, this was answered directly by Browder and Kim in the Q&A session. You can copy workers, but the intimated that it isn't really worth it apart from getting your hands on an orbital.
How would it not be worth it? As you said, they could get an orbital, and the required tech for getting a specific unit wouldn't be too much, while it could be invaluable.
For example if you want siege tanks, you would first need to get a supply depot which would be fine as you would simply not have to build an extra pylon. Then you would get a barracks (even assuming you don't get anything from this, it is just the cost of a zealot and a probe... really not that much in the mid to late game) and then you would already be able to get a factory as if it was simply available tech to your own race. On top of that, you get an orbital if the cost of the barracks seemed to steep. (Keep in mind you can use that orbital as a liftable expansion as well, so you aren't just throwing away the cost of a nexus either).
Am I missing something here? I am by no means saying getting siege tech would be free, but it seems very reasonable, even in a pro game, despite the fact that it might be a bit odd.
On October 25 2011 01:54 galivet wrote: PvZ
1. Build Colossus and replicants. 2. Zerg opponent responds with corruptors. 3. Convert all replicants to corruptors. 4. The replicated corruptors get all corruptor abilities, including Broodlord Morph. 5. Morph your replicated corruptors into Broodlords. 6. Kill your opponent with the invincible colossus/broodlord/stalker deathball.
Colossus are now uncounterable.
Except by vipers which pull them on top of your roaches... or the vipers cloud which reduces all of your units range to 1... or by more corruptors as your only anti air at that point would be stalkers, which is no different than before you replicated all their corruptors (except you just wasted a ton of gas, so you can't afford many stalkers, or many collosus, so corruptors will easily roll thorugh).
1. Build Colossus and replicants. 2. Zerg opponent responds with corruptors. 3. Convert all replicants to corruptors. 4. The replicated corruptors get all corruptor abilities, including Broodlord Morph. 5. Morph your replicated corruptors into Broodlords. 6. Kill your opponent with the invincible colossus/broodlord/stalker deathball.
Colossus are now uncounterable.
Broodlord morph is no tech. So no, you don't get that. You only get stuff that needs to be researched (NP, +energy, Roach speed, HSM, Storm, etc.).
Ghosts for sure if you got Templar tech; even 1 EMP of your own, especially as your ghost will have cloak, would be amazing.
Also after you're on 3-4 bases, replicate an SCV, build orbital commands. Not really any terran tech line, but orbital commands and mules would be amazing for mid-late game. Or rather, mules!
You can really pump out immortals if you make 1 robo with immorts and chrono a few replicators. Dont think of Money, Think if the time you can save for an earlier push.
You guys think about cost too much but would you spend a little extra to get out a stronger push a minute earlier?
1. Build two replicants. 2. Get vision of a queen and an overlord and replicate them. 3. Use the overlord to generate creep. 4. Use the queen to plant a creep tumor. 5. Expand your creep for map vision.
I think a lot of people are comparing resource/food value and saying that the replicator is too expensive.
The 3 races were designed to deal with situations within the set of tools they have (their unique units. So zerg deals with drops one way while protoss deals with them in another, albeit be different efficiencies.)
I really dont think being able to add a different tool in that palet can be put a fixed price on.
For example, I am terran (yea lollol) and if terran had the replicators, and Zerg was going mutas and was in the process of adding infestors and hive tech, having a single infestor like unit as terran would be worth more than 200/200 with 4 supply. (to be honest fungal growth would be a godly tool as terran >.< well worth 400/300 if it was available)
Yes it will depend on which unit mix the enemy makes, but i have a feeling it will change when the metagame evolves in hots.
1. Build Colossus and replicants. 2. Zerg opponent responds with corruptors. 3. Convert all replicants to corruptors. 4. The replicated corruptors get all corruptor abilities, including Broodlord Morph. 5. Morph your replicated corruptors into Broodlords. 6. Kill your opponent with the invincible colossus/broodlord/stalker deathball.
Colossus are now uncounterable.
Broodlord morph is no tech. So no, you don't get that. You only get stuff that needs to be researched (NP, +energy, Roach speed, HSM, Storm, etc.).
This is something you know for a fact because you've tried it in a HotS preview, or something you're assuming out of hope?
On October 25 2011 01:38 Mafe wrote: I believe the point of this unit will be pvp above the other matchups: Robo vs 3 gate blink stalker? Yay I have blink too. Robo vs stargate? Well my vrs cost 50 gas instead of 50 mins. But I also have more units available. You go templar? Well I also do, but I was going robo before and still I have storm at the same time like you.
So you can't 4 gate because pylon power fields don't reach the high ground.
And if you go Void Rays than your Voids can be copied at around the same cost and you'll die since your opponent will also have access to Robo units too. If you go for DT's I just replicate your DT and if you don't have detection you die, if you do, I am ahead due to what you spent on the Dark Shrine. I guess opening Blink is still somewhat viable, but basically the changes until this point in HOTS means than Colossus Wars is coming, and you can't stop it...
DEAR GOD. War of the Worlds is coming... again. Sigh.
On October 25 2011 01:59 ContactKilla wrote: You can really pump out immortals if you make 1 robo with immorts and chrono a few replicators. Dont think of Money, Think if the time you can save for an earlier push.
You guys think about cost too much but would you spend a little extra to get out a stronger push a minute earlier?
Seems like you are simply not thinking of cost enough. You can just get another robo facility if you could really afford to keep up that production... but you can't. Robo facilities are cheaper, so that would actually be a better option if you wanted to pump out immortals, but also after that push you will be much weaker even if you could manage to shave off a few seconds (which I doubt, since you would be doubling the gas cost of each immortal, which is terrible).
Again... if you want to get more immortals faster, invest in the robo facilities to simply produce them, each of which is cheaper than a single replicator, but the problem is you simply can't afford to keep up that production (especially not producing replicator after replicator).
1. Build Colossus and replicants. 2. Zerg opponent responds with corruptors. 3. Convert all replicants to corruptors. 4. The replicated corruptors get all corruptor abilities, including Broodlord Morph. 5. Morph your replicated corruptors into Broodlords. 6. Kill your opponent with the invincible colossus/broodlord/stalker deathball.
Colossus are now uncounterable.
Broodlord morph is no tech. So no, you don't get that. You only get stuff that needs to be researched (NP, +energy, Roach speed, HSM, Storm, etc.).
This is something you know for a fact because you've tried it in a HotS preview, or something you're assuming out of hope?
Something I assume out of all the information I got until now. Didn't Dustin "Protoss.Slayer" Browder say something like "you get the unit with every tech, even if it hasn't been researched yet"? I've never seen a "Broodlord Morph" tech, you?
On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote: The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for.
I fail to see how getting a banshee early on, which would then have cloak, would be ineffecient, assuming you could do some damage with it.
On October 25 2011 02:02 ptrpb wrote: honestly I would replicate a drone and create a hatch just to make overlords scouting for protoss for the cost of 100 minerals? baby pleaaaaase
That would be terrible.... unless you want super slow scouts in the mid game, or you are willing to get a spawning pool, a lair, and then overlord speed just so you can sacrifice overlords in their base for EVEN MORE MONEY all because you are too lazy to simply upgrade hallucination.
1. Open DT expand to force a raven 2. Replicate the raven (only lose 100m over the cost of building them, and you get the upgrades!) 3. Use HSM for worker harass that actually kills workers. =P
1. Open DT expand to force a raven 2. Replicate the raven (only lose 100m over the cost of building them, and you get the upgrades!) 3. Use HSM for worker harass that actually kills workers. =P
Or they just build eBay (which they'll build anyways) + Turrets...
On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote: The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for.
Doesn't efficiency depend entirely on synergies? Having access to mules and scvs for repair will probably be worth the 200/200.
Also, you ignore the build time of the replicator, which is pretty short.
200/200 every 30 Seconds is not feasible.
You can't repair Protoss buildings/units as far as I'm aware. Any synergy that is worth 50-100 extra gas or minerals + 1-2 extra supply is something everyone will complain about and will be nerfed.
I think we really need to wait for more information/more testing on that unit... I mean, you can neural parasite a pdd but can you replicate one? can you replicate a mule ( an everlasting mule which can mine and repair your hurt collosi...) can you replicate an hallucination...
At the moment i see utility against the 1-1-1, the possibility of a replican will probably force terran to research siege mode and save scans to prevent cloacked banshees. In PvZ, the storm-fungal seems nice.
Either way, the unit feels wrong and pretty hard to balance.
1. Build Colossus and replicants. 2. Zerg opponent responds with corruptors. 3. Convert all replicants to corruptors. 4. The replicated corruptors get all corruptor abilities, including Broodlord Morph. 5. Morph your replicated corruptors into Broodlords. 6. Kill your opponent with the invincible colossus/broodlord/stalker deathball.
Colossus are now uncounterable.
Broodlord morph is no tech. So no, you don't get that. You only get stuff that needs to be researched (NP, +energy, Roach speed, HSM, Storm, etc.).
This is something you know for a fact because you've tried it in a HotS preview, or something you're assuming out of hope?
Something I assume out of all the information I got until now. Didn't Dustin "Protoss.Slayer" Browder say something like "you get the unit with every tech, even if it hasn't been researched yet"? I've never seen a "Broodlord Morph" tech, you?
I'm not going to try and reason out such a specific conclusions based on Blizzard's vague alpha-release statements. It's most intuitive to me that it grants all abilities that the unit can possess (all buttons you can press on its action panel). But we'll just have to wait and see I guess.
On October 25 2011 02:02 ptrpb wrote: honestly I would replicate a drone and create a hatch just to make overlords scouting for protoss for the cost of 100 minerals? baby pleaaaaase
That would be terrible.... unless you want super slow scouts in the mid game, or you are willing to get a spawning pool, a lair, and then overlord speed just so you can sacrifice overlords in their base for EVEN MORE MONEY all because you are too lazy to simply upgrade hallucination.
Terrible idea.
you don't use them to scout your opponent , you put them around your base to check for drops. yes you can do the same with observers but then you lose robo production imo. but this way you only spent minerals and if you lose them you don't lose supply. i just think it'd be a fun way to use replicate
On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote: The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for.
Doesn't efficiency depend entirely on synergies? Having access to mules and scvs for repair will probably be worth the 200/200.
Also, you ignore the build time of the replicator, which is pretty short.
200/200 every 30 Seconds is not feasible.
You can't repair Protoss buildings/units as far as I'm aware. Any synergy that is worth 50-100 extra gas or minerals + 1-2 extra supply is something everyone will complain about and will be nerfed.
Buildings I'm not totally sure of, but units you definitely CAN repair.
On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote: The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for.
Doesn't efficiency depend entirely on synergies? Having access to mules and scvs for repair will probably be worth the 200/200.
Also, you ignore the build time of the replicator, which is pretty short.
200/200 every 30 Seconds is not feasible.
You can't repair Protoss buildings/units as far as I'm aware. Any synergy that is worth 50-100 extra gas or minerals + 1-2 extra supply is something everyone will complain about and will be nerfed.
Buildings I'm not totally sure of, but units you definitely CAN repair.
Regardless, a 200/200 4 Supply SCV that still costs minerals to repair will NEVER be worth it.
1. Open DT expand to force a raven 2. Replicate the raven (only lose 100m over the cost of building them, and you get the upgrades!) 3. Use HSM for worker harass that actually kills workers. =P
Or they just build eBay (which they'll build anyways) + Turrets...
You're like the guy who would say "Why ever build a colossus when he'll just build vikings" aren't you? What a pessimist/defeatist. Forcing a response is a victory, and HSM is still useful in fights versus bio, for forcing army movements (like you can do with a nuke), dropping auto-turrets, etc. It makes a difference when you can get all the upgrades for the Raven without paying any extra gas or research time.
Banshee would probably be the best unit to replicate since terrans rarely make turrets at their mineral line against Protoss. You get the cloak upgrade immediately, making them wish they never went banshee. Replicating tanks might be good but I have a feeling that terrans will be going mech now that they have the mini-thor that destroys mechanical units. Replicating a raven would be pretty awful since the raven would have to sit around doing nothing for a while before they can use PDD and terrans have marines, a unit that is not affected by the PDD and can kill it easily. I don't know about replicating ghosts since they're usually not clumped up together. I think the most fun will be replicating infestors....fungal + storm and or collosi beam..
1. Open DT expand to force a raven 2. Replicate the raven (only lose 100m over the cost of building them, and you get the upgrades!) 3. Use HSM for worker harass that actually kills workers. =P
Or they just build eBay (which they'll build anyways) + Turrets...
You're like the guy who would say "Why ever build a colossus when he'll just build vikings" aren't you? What a pessimist/defeatist. Forcing a response is a victory, and HSM is still useful in fights versus bio, for forcing army movements (like you can do with a nuke), dropping auto-turrets, etc. It makes a difference when you can get all the upgrades for the Raven without paying any extra gas or research time.
I'm not saying that getting a Raven would be useless. Just saying that I can't imagine a Terran going "oh shit, DT's, better get that Tech Lab on my Starport and build me some Raven" (in the situation of a DT expand - later they might get them, sure).
1. Open DT expand to force a raven 2. Replicate the raven (only lose 100m over the cost of building them, and you get the upgrades!) 3. Use HSM for worker harass that actually kills workers. =P
Or they just build eBay (which they'll build anyways) + Turrets...
You're like the guy who would say "Why ever build a colossus when he'll just build vikings" aren't you? What a pessimist/defeatist. Forcing a response is a victory, and HSM is still useful in fights versus bio, for forcing army movements (like you can do with a nuke), dropping auto-turrets, etc. It makes a difference when you can get all the upgrades for the Raven without paying any extra gas or research time.
I'm not saying that getting a Raven would be useless. Just saying that I can't imagine a Terran going "oh shit, DT's, better get that Tech Lab on my Starport and build me some Raven".
Oh, I thought you meant getting the turrets to stop the raven harass, sorry.
Anyway, often if you DT expand the terran gets a raven so that he can move out across the map without burning a scan every other step to kill DTs on the map. DT expand works by forcing the terran to delay moving out until after your expansion pays off (either because he gets a raven or because he saves up a bunch of orbital energy for scans).
On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote: The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for.
Doesn't efficiency depend entirely on synergies? Having access to mules and scvs for repair will probably be worth the 200/200.
Also, you ignore the build time of the replicator, which is pretty short.
200/200 every 30 Seconds is not feasible.
You can't repair Protoss buildings/units as far as I'm aware. Any synergy that is worth 50-100 extra gas or minerals + 1-2 extra supply is something everyone will complain about and will be nerfed.
Buildings I'm not totally sure of, but units you definitely CAN repair.
Regardless, a 200/200 4 Supply SCV that still costs minerals to repair will NEVER be worth it.
That's why you tell your 200/200 4 supply SCV to build a CC so you can have 50/0 1 supply SCVs plus MULEs. The CC doesn't even "cost" anything given that you can use it as an expansion.
On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote: The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for.
Doesn't efficiency depend entirely on synergies? Having access to mules and scvs for repair will probably be worth the 200/200.
Also, you ignore the build time of the replicator, which is pretty short.
200/200 every 30 Seconds is not feasible.
You can't repair Protoss buildings/units as far as I'm aware. Any synergy that is worth 50-100 extra gas or minerals + 1-2 extra supply is something everyone will complain about and will be nerfed.
Buildings I'm not totally sure of, but units you definitely CAN repair.
Have you actually read the SCVs tooltip? It repairs mechanical units and structures. Protoss, Zerg, Terran, there is no such thing, theres armoured, mechanical, biological, etc. SCV repairs mechanical things. The Medivac heals biological units (units means not structures)
1. Build two replicants. 2. Get vision of a queen and an overlord and replicate them. 3. Use the overlord to generate creep. 4. Use the queen to plant a creep tumor. 5. Expand your creep for map vision.
6. Have the zerg opponent come kill you after you've invested 400/400 on a useless queen and overlord.
On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote: The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for.
Doesn't efficiency depend entirely on synergies? Having access to mules and scvs for repair will probably be worth the 200/200.
Also, you ignore the build time of the replicator, which is pretty short.
200/200 every 30 Seconds is not feasible.
You can't repair Protoss buildings/units as far as I'm aware. Any synergy that is worth 50-100 extra gas or minerals + 1-2 extra supply is something everyone will complain about and will be nerfed.
Buildings I'm not totally sure of, but units you definitely CAN repair.
Have you actually read the SCVs tooltip? It repairs mechanical units and structures. Protoss, Zerg, Terran, there is no such thing, theres armoured, mechanical, biological, etc. SCV repairs mechanical things. The Medivac heals biological units (units means not structures)
So in theory SCVs should be able to repair toss buildings in addition to Colossi and Immortals.
1. Build two replicants. 2. Get vision of a queen and an overlord and replicate them. 3. Use the overlord to generate creep. 4. Use the queen to plant a creep tumor. 5. Expand your creep for map vision.
6. Have the zerg opponent come kill you after you've invested 400/400 on a useless queen and overlord.
7. Enjoy the zerg moving even faster on the map because you creeped up to your base for them.
1. Build two replicants. 2. Get vision of a queen and an overlord and replicate them. 3. Use the overlord to generate creep. 4. Use the queen to plant a creep tumor. 5. Expand your creep for map vision.
6. Have the zerg opponent come kill you after you've invested 400/400 on a useless queen and overlord.
Faster than usual, too, because he can use your creep to run towards your base.
On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote: The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for.
Doesn't efficiency depend entirely on synergies? Having access to mules and scvs for repair will probably be worth the 200/200.
Also, you ignore the build time of the replicator, which is pretty short.
200/200 every 30 Seconds is not feasible.
You can't repair Protoss buildings/units as far as I'm aware. Any synergy that is worth 50-100 extra gas or minerals + 1-2 extra supply is something everyone will complain about and will be nerfed.
Buildings I'm not totally sure of, but units you definitely CAN repair.
Have you actually read the SCVs tooltip? It repairs mechanical units and structures. Protoss, Zerg, Terran, there is no such thing, theres armoured, mechanical, biological, etc. SCV repairs mechanical things. The Medivac heals biological units (units means not structures)
Have you actually tried it? I have had my units repaired and healed by a Terran ally in team games, so that's something I can tell out of experience. I can't remember having a building repaired but I'm pretty sure it works. I play Protoss and I don't give a shit on tooltips...
On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote: The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for.
I fail to see how getting a banshee early on, which would then have cloak, would be ineffecient, assuming you could do some damage with it.
On October 25 2011 02:02 ptrpb wrote: honestly I would replicate a drone and create a hatch just to make overlords scouting for protoss for the cost of 100 minerals? baby pleaaaaase
That would be terrible.... unless you want super slow scouts in the mid game, or you are willing to get a spawning pool, a lair, and then overlord speed just so you can sacrifice overlords in their base for EVEN MORE MONEY all because you are too lazy to simply upgrade hallucination.
Terrible idea.
you don't use them to scout your opponent , you put them around your base to check for drops. yes you can do the same with observers but then you lose robo production imo. but this way you only spent minerals and if you lose them you don't lose supply. i just think it'd be a fun way to use replicate
Fun? Yeah it could definitely be fun in non serious games, but I thought you were talking about a competitive game. You may as well build pylons around or patrol zealots around and save all the time, minerals, gas and trouble. Yes they can't float over ledges, but they will still do a nearly equivalent job.
For 200/200 I cant see that the replicator will be used very much.
I dont consider it reasonable to replicate a ghost and get off an EMP before they do (as we simply cant be expect to do 3 clicks in the time it takes them to do one).
Tanks do not really fit well in the ball of death.
Infestors could be useful, but more useful than say.. and HT to just feedback their infestors? unlikely.
Only time I ever see this being used is to defend timing pushes. For example, defending vs a 1-1-1 would be useful if we could replicate a banshee or a raven (raven nullify banshee (PDD) and seeker nullify marines.. maybe). we could also steal a tank to take care of the marines.
Tanks are counter-productive if we have zealots.
I personally dont forsee I will use the replicator much.
It may be useful if we do a protoss 1-1-1 build and use replicators to make void rays.
On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote: The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for.
Doesn't efficiency depend entirely on synergies? Having access to mules and scvs for repair will probably be worth the 200/200.
Also, you ignore the build time of the replicator, which is pretty short.
200/200 every 30 Seconds is not feasible.
You can't repair Protoss buildings/units as far as I'm aware. Any synergy that is worth 50-100 extra gas or minerals + 1-2 extra supply is something everyone will complain about and will be nerfed.
Buildings I'm not totally sure of, but units you definitely CAN repair.
Have you actually read the SCVs tooltip? It repairs mechanical units and structures. Protoss, Zerg, Terran, there is no such thing, theres armoured, mechanical, biological, etc. SCV repairs mechanical things. The Medivac heals biological units (units means not structures)
So in theory SCVs should be able to repair toss buildings in addition to Colossi and Immortals.
It works in team games.
Edit: Misread. Not sure about buildings, but definitely works on units.
I think this is a terrible unit idea and it will only be included in the game if massive restrictions are placed on it. I feel like having all the upgrades whether the person has upgrade or not will get scrapped. Also I feel like you'll have to see the unit before you can replicate it so unless you get cannons vs. a dt rush you wont be counter-replicating dts. Also I feel like the build time for the replicator will have to be one of the longest P build times otherwise it will make P just a boring rush to replicators. Its such a risky unit introduction that will get heavily fleshed out in beta.
Why are people focusing almost exclusively on the fact that it copies enemy units? It has a considerably larger depth than this.
You can copy your own units and this has a much higher usefulness than some seem to believe. While it is always going to be more expensive to replicate a unit than it is to just build it this is just a way to balance it as if it was cheaper why would you ever build anything other than replicants? The replicated unit will start with 200 energy (I believe) and every research for it unlocked. This is the major benefit replicants have over other units (besides its short build time) and why you would build them. Think about it, you started off with getting a robo and later proceed to get templar tech. While storm research is on its way a huge ball of marines comes knocking on your door. Without having AoE marines are pretty hard to deal with correct? But with this new unit you could warp in a templar, chronoboost out a replicant and have 2 storms ready for when the marines arrive. Your immediate demise has been averted.
There are many more things you can do though; you can speed up tech switches (because the robo can function as another stargate/warp gate but at a higher resource cost), react to what you see your opponent getting (by having a few un-used replicants standing around) or as they don’t have energy until they've replicated something with energy you can wait until after the emp:s hit to make those 3-4 replicants in high templars and storm their army. The possibilities are practically endless and it will make the protoss race that much more flexible. And how do you balance this? Tweak its cost, build time, required supply etc. You’ll hardly be creating any new unbeatable combos by replicating your own units and the fact that you have to invest in a robo to get them makes it counterproductive to include replicants in any sort of tech rush.
I’m however against the concept that it can copy your enemies units as I believe that protoss should stick to protoss, terran to terran and zerg to zerg. You shouldn’t have to resort to “making” other races spellcasters (or any other unit) to win and the fact that you would have real no control over whether they actually make a unit or not does nothing but elevate the issue. However the fact that even being able to copy your own units’ gives protoss so many options make it so that I want the replicant to stay. My suggestion would as such just be to remove the part about it being able to copy units you don’t control.
1. Build two replicants. 2. Get vision of a queen and an overlord and replicate them. 3. Use the overlord to generate creep. 4. Use the queen to plant a creep tumor. 5. Expand your creep for map vision.
6. Have the zerg opponent come kill you after you've invested 400/400 on a useless queen and overlord.
7. Enjoy the zerg moving even faster on the map because you creeped up to your base for them.
Unless you're not so stupid that you started the creepspread at your own front door rather than the middle of the map (to keep your opponent's creep from spread there) or your opponent's likely expansion spots.
Your problem is that you assume that the replicator is useless from the outset and then rationalize any use of that unit as counter-productive. With that mindset of course you will never find any use for it because you shut down your own creativity. It's just like with the warp prism: For months all protoss said that the prism was useless because of blah blah blah pessimism and defeatism. And now pros are using the prism in PvZ as harassment staple. The shield buff isn't really making as much of a difference in the viability of the unit as the attitude adjustment by the players to stop blindly assuming that it's shit and to actually try applying their creativity and skill to making it useful. The same thing applies with the replicator: it's not useless; you are.
The Replicant builds from the Robo in 30 seconds. Think about that. Void Rays build in what, 60 seconds? Immortals 55 seconds? What about morphing into Templar with full Energy and skip waiting for Storm research or waiting for energy? While Replicants may not be cost or supply efficient, they are certainly time efficient. That right there may be the key to their effectiveness as well as their balance; they don't need to be supply/cost efficient, just time efficient and flexible.
remember fellas, this unit is till in it's alpha-beta stage (not sure which) so there are a lot of things to work out. in my opinion i think this does balance out protoss (getting the OP ghosts on the brotoss) but in a sense i fell that it isn't protoss. i wasn't all that thrilled with this unit and personally i hope they scratch this unit all together and come up with a better unit.
hell i'd be happy if they buffed void rays to 100/100 and 2 population with build time of 20. LOLOLOL that would be the day :D
On October 25 2011 00:34 FagaX wrote: Didn't they say that you cannot replicate workers?
No, this was answered directly by Browder and Kim in the Q&A session. You can copy workers, but the intimated that it isn't really worth it apart from getting your hands on an orbital.
getting access to all your opponents tech isnt worth 200/200? I would in the late game 100% .
I think it's very hard to predict this but if I understand correctly you get all the upgrades? Then getting a ghost would be a great idea as well as many other spellcasters.
Would be awesome to take banelings and do some magic with that. Very low chance of being useful but could be awesome. Maybe something for 2vs2.
On October 25 2011 02:36 Twinmold wrote: The replicated unit will start with 200 energy (I believe) and every research for it unlocked.
This will definitely not make it through the beta. Imagine a warp prism with a replicator inside, that is on his way to the enemy base, you warp in a templar at home without even researching storm and when you unload the replicator, it will turn into a templar with full energy and a researched storm?
On October 25 2011 02:36 Twinmold wrote: The replicated unit will start with 200 energy (I believe) and every research for it unlocked.
This will definitely not make it through the beta. Imagine a warp prism with a replicator inside, that is on his way to the enemy base, you warp in a templar at home without even researching storm and when you unload the replicator, it will turn into a templar with full energy and a researched storm?
Wait, is it actually all research unlocked, or is it all research you/your opponent has unlocked? As in, if my opponent didn't have Siege Mode, and I replicated a Siege Tank, would I get Siege Mode?
On October 25 2011 02:36 Twinmold wrote: Why are people focusing almost exclusively on the fact that it copies enemy units? It has a considerably larger depth than this.
You can copy your own units and this has a much higher usefulness than some seem to believe. While it is always going to be more expensive to replicate a unit than it is to just build it this is just a way to balance it as if it was cheaper why would you ever build anything other than replicants? The replicated unit will start with 200 energy (I believe) and every research for it unlocked. This is the major benefit replicants have over other units (besides its short build time) and why you would build them. Think about it, you started off with getting a robo and later proceed to get templar tech. While storm research is on its way a huge ball of marines comes knocking on your door. Without having AoE marines are pretty hard to deal with correct? But with this new unit you could warp in a templar, chronoboost out a replicant and have 2 storms ready for when the marines arrive. Your immediate demise has been averted.
There are many more things you can do though; you can speed up tech switches (because the robo can function as another stargate/warp gate but at a higher resource cost), react to what you see your opponent getting (by having a few un-used replicants standing around) or as they don’t have energy until they've replicated something with energy you can wait until after the emp:s hit to make those 3-4 replicants in high templars and storm their army. The possibilities are practically endless and it will make the protoss race that much more flexible. And how do you balance this? Tweak its cost, build time, required supply etc. You’ll hardly be creating any new unbeatable combos by replicating your own units and the fact that you have to invest in a robo to get them makes it counterproductive to include replicants in any sort of tech rush.
I’m however against the concept that it can copy your enemies units as I believe that protoss should stick to protoss, terran to terran and zerg to zerg. You shouldn’t have to resort to “making” other races spellcasters (or any other unit) to win and the fact that you would have real no control over whether they actually make a unit or not does nothing but elevate the issue. However the fact that even being able to copy your own units’ gives protoss so many options make it so that I want the replicant to stay. My suggestion would as such just be to remove the part about it being able to copy units you don’t control.
Because it sounds like you can't replicate your own units.
On October 25 2011 02:36 Twinmold wrote: The replicated unit will start with 200 energy (I believe) and every research for it unlocked.
This will definitely not make it through the beta. Imagine a warp prism with a replicator inside, that is on his way to the enemy base, you warp in a templar at home without even researching storm and when you unload the replicator, it will turn into a templar with full energy and a researched storm?
Is it actually all research unlocked, or is it all research you/your opponent has unlocked? As in, if my opponent didn't have Siege Mode, and I replicated a Siege Tank, would I get Siege Mode?
On October 25 2011 02:36 Twinmold wrote: The replicated unit will start with 200 energy (I believe) and every research for it unlocked.
This will definitely not make it through the beta. Imagine a warp prism with a replicator inside, that is on his way to the enemy base, you warp in a templar at home without even researching storm and when you unload the replicator, it will turn into a templar with full energy and a researched storm?
For the 200/0 for the warp prism and the 200/200 for the replicant would it really be that imbalanced (you can't warp in the replicant so if you lose the warp prism you also lose the replicant)? The +2 baneling drop against protoss is atleast that effective.
On October 25 2011 02:36 Twinmold wrote: Why are people focusing almost exclusively on the fact that it copies enemy units? It has a considerably larger depth than this.
You can copy your own units and this has a much higher usefulness than some seem to believe. While it is always going to be more expensive to replicate a unit than it is to just build it this is just a way to balance it as if it was cheaper why would you ever build anything other than replicants? The replicated unit will start with 200 energy (I believe) and every research for it unlocked. This is the major benefit replicants have over other units (besides its short build time) and why you would build them. Think about it, you started off with getting a robo and later proceed to get templar tech. While storm research is on its way a huge ball of marines comes knocking on your door. Without having AoE marines are pretty hard to deal with correct? But with this new unit you could warp in a templar, chronoboost out a replicant and have 2 storms ready for when the marines arrive. Your immediate demise has been averted.
There are many more things you can do though; you can speed up tech switches (because the robo can function as another stargate/warp gate but at a higher resource cost), react to what you see your opponent getting (by having a few un-used replicants standing around) or as they don’t have energy until they've replicated something with energy you can wait until after the emp:s hit to make those 3-4 replicants in high templars and storm their army. The possibilities are practically endless and it will make the protoss race that much more flexible. And how do you balance this? Tweak its cost, build time, required supply etc. You’ll hardly be creating any new unbeatable combos by replicating your own units and the fact that you have to invest in a robo to get them makes it counterproductive to include replicants in any sort of tech rush.
I’m however against the concept that it can copy your enemies units as I believe that protoss should stick to protoss, terran to terran and zerg to zerg. You shouldn’t have to resort to “making” other races spellcasters (or any other unit) to win and the fact that you would have real no control over whether they actually make a unit or not does nothing but elevate the issue. However the fact that even being able to copy your own units’ gives protoss so many options make it so that I want the replicant to stay. My suggestion would as such just be to remove the part about it being able to copy units you don’t control.
Because it sounds like you can't replicate your own units.
Well I've seen it be done. They just didn't show it in the demo (a mistake imo).
On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote: The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for.
I fail to see how getting a banshee early on, which would then have cloak, would be ineffecient, assuming you could do some damage with it.
On October 25 2011 02:02 ptrpb wrote: honestly I would replicate a drone and create a hatch just to make overlords scouting for protoss for the cost of 100 minerals? baby pleaaaaase
That would be terrible.... unless you want super slow scouts in the mid game, or you are willing to get a spawning pool, a lair, and then overlord speed just so you can sacrifice overlords in their base for EVEN MORE MONEY all because you are too lazy to simply upgrade hallucination.
Terrible idea.
you don't use them to scout your opponent , you put them around your base to check for drops. yes you can do the same with observers but then you lose robo production imo. but this way you only spent minerals and if you lose them you don't lose supply. i just think it'd be a fun way to use replicate
Fun? Yeah it could definitely be fun in non serious games, but I thought you were talking about a competitive game. You may as well build pylons around or patrol zealots around and save all the time, minerals, gas and trouble. Yes they can't float over ledges, but they will still do a nearly equivalent job.
what about on maps that have many high ground sections and lots of air-only space around the base. yes you could build pylons everywhere but you risk losing them to lings and subsequently getting supply blocked unless you made an extra pylon for every one you put outside your base. i'm no pro player but i wouldn't say its a completely useless tactic.
So if i can replicate an scv or drone then build a hatchery or so on. Can i chrono boost those buildings? This seems way too messed up I hope blizzard trashes this idea. Even though im a toss player i'd rather have a toss unit.
On a side note if i replicate vipers, i can make any unit a detector :O badass! Hook battles!
Anyone else getting remembered of the Engineer from, right, C&C? Oh Dusty... you did it again...
Wasn't that a sabotage unit?
Innitially no, I think they changed it later though (RA3 maybe?). It used to capture a building from your opponent. I remember mass dropping Engineers in C&C to capture and sell my enemies buildings
Anyone else getting remembered of the Engineer from, right, C&C? Oh Dusty... you did it again...
Wasn't that a sabotage unit?
Innitially no, I think they changed it later though (RA2 maybe?). It used to capture a building from your opponent. I remember mass dropping Engineers in C&C to capture and sell my enemies buildings
One question I had, is that whether a replicant can replicate multiple times or just a single time (until it dies). Sorry I might have missed something! but this would be useful to know.
On October 25 2011 00:34 FagaX wrote: Didn't they say that you cannot replicate workers?
No, this was answered directly by Browder and Kim in the Q&A session. You can copy workers, but the intimated that it isn't really worth it apart from getting your hands on an orbital.
getting access to all your opponents tech isnt worth 200/200? I would in the late game 100% .
You would still have to invest ridiculous amounts into fleshing out a second race's tech tree.
It's not a matter of replicating an SCV and then having access to marines. You get an SCV, build a CC, build a Barracks, and then you can produce marines at a pathetic rate. Your marines will suck compared to your opponents', since you'll have far less, and no upgrades for them. To make them comparable you'd have to make a Factory, Engineering Bays, Starports (Medivac support is essential), and a huge Barracks count to produce enough of them. At this point you might as well have picked Terran because that's where you're spending all your resources.
It will be a very very rare scenario in which completing teching up as another race will be worth it.
That said, the Replicator sounds very powerful for fighting off all-ins. 1/1/1 will be easily held off, I think: if it's a Raven variant, replicate a Raven and Seeker Missile his Marines. If there's no Raven, replicate a Banshee and cloak it, repeat until he has no scans. DT rushes in PvP will be an instant loss against Robotics openings, since once detected by an Observer you can replicate the DT and your opponent won't be able to stop it.
I don't see much application for the unit in PvZ. A single Infestor isn't much use, and there's nothing else I could imagine wanting to copy for 200/200.
For those of you wanting to replicate an SCV and get orbitals, it would still cost 800 minerals and 230s (almost 4 minutes) before you got there. At an 800 mineral investment, it would take an additional 5 minutes of MULE mining before you saw a positive return on your investment. After 9 minutes of play, you'd finally have an "advantage" in economy, assuming you both did nothing to each other.
On October 25 2011 02:52 Ashes wrote: One question I had, is that whether a replicant can replicate multiple times or just a single time (until it dies). Sorry I might have missed something! but this would be useful to know.
I'm 75% certain it's one time. People haven't reported multiple transformations, which to me would seem like a rather memorable point.
On October 25 2011 02:52 Ashes wrote: One question I had, is that whether a replicant can replicate multiple times or just a single time (until it dies). Sorry I might have missed something! but this would be useful to know.
On October 25 2011 02:47 Twinmold wrote: For the 200/0 for the warp prism and the 200/200 for the replicant would it really be that imbalanced (you can't warp in the replicant so if you lose the warp prism you also lose the replicant)? The +2 baneling drop against protoss is atleast that effective.
Khaydarin was 150/150 110secs + Storm 200/200 110secs (=cost of a replicant), so it comes 220secs sooner without chrono, with two storms ready and you can be building the warp prism and the replicant while the archives are warping in.
So this is the unit who will put an end to infetors in PvZ: replicate infestor, fungal, outrange almost every unit the zerg 90 % of the time have when they also got infestor and let the laughing begin. Banshees whould be super gamble in TvP for obvious reasons.
About replicating SCVs, if you can replicate any unit on the screen (the tanks were pretty far on the demo video) you may end up without your opponent knowing you replicated his scv. There's a small "white smoke" animation on top of the replicated unit though, but I wonder if your opponent gets an audio warning of any sort and the animation plays pretty fast, so if you manage to build an orbital command it can end up as a secret building for quite a while. Hell, you don't even need to land it in a mineral patch. Not only do you get mules, you also get scvs to repair your units and instant detection when banshees or ghosts come knocking on your door.
Building any other units doesn't seem prudent since they're all in completely different tech trees but building a depot and an engineering bay will get you planetary fortresses. Not sure if that's better than a nexus that can recall your army, but a planetary fortress definitely dishes out more damage than a temporary anti light cannon. You also get access to turrets, which provide cheap detection, at 100 mins and get built in half the time than a photon cannon.
On October 25 2011 02:53 aksfjh wrote: For those of you wanting to replicate an SCV and get orbitals, it would still cost 800 minerals and 230s (almost 4 minutes) before you got there. At an 800 mineral investment, it would take an additional 5 minutes of MULE mining before you saw a positive return on your investment.
No, the command center isn't an extra cost, because you can use it as an expansion (you were going to expand, right?). The supply depot isn't an extra cost, because it can replace a pylon. That leaves 300 minerals for barracks and the upgrade. That's one mule.
On October 25 2011 02:36 Twinmold wrote: <snip> You can copy your own units and this has a much higher usefulness than some seem to believe. While it is always going to be more expensive to replicate a unit than it is to just build it this is just a way to balance it as if it was cheaper why would you ever build anything other than replicants? The replicated unit will start with 200 energy (I believe) and every research for it unlocked. This is the major benefit replicants have over other units (besides its short build time) and why you would build them. Think about it, you started off with getting a robo and later proceed to get templar tech. While storm research is on its way a huge ball of marines comes knocking on your door. Without having AoE marines are pretty hard to deal with correct? But with this new unit you could warp in a templar, chronoboost out a replicant and have 2 storms ready for when the marines arrive. Your immediate demise has been averted.
You, again, are completely overstating the Replicant's usefulness.
For instance, in your marine example, you say that you see the huge ball of marines come up to your door and you somehow have time to warp in a Templar (presumably without storm researched, because if it is, why would you possibly need a replicant to be chronobosted out), as well as chronoboosting out a replicant. The replicant then, of course, replicates your own HT. We're not even sure at this point if you can replicate your own units, but thats beyond the point. In addition, despite Storm being researched, we still have NO IDEA how much energy the ReplicatedHT will start out with. In addition, 200/200 would be enough to get 2 more sentries and a zealot. Adding in the replicator solves no core issues of the Protoss race.
tl;dr - You're thinking of new usages for this useless unit without any backup of stats. Yes, the majority of Protoss players are writing it off as a worthless waste of space, but that's because it's just completely a filler unit that solves no core problems.
PvT I would say replicating medivacs for your zealots would be good. I would also imagine that replicating an SCV so you could produce SCVs would also be good. Not even for the MULE, but for the SCV. People seem to be forgetting how powerful Thors are when backed by repairing SCVs. They can also repair Colossus...
this has the potential to be ridiculously OP as well as cause terrans to all in early with few tech units to prevent replicating. for example, open cloakless banshee? cloaked banshees will come back and bite you in the ass. Then again, the whole game dynamic has changed so we can't compare to the current state :o
On October 25 2011 02:53 aksfjh wrote: For those of you wanting to replicate an SCV and get orbitals, it would still cost 800 minerals and 230s (almost 4 minutes) before you got there. At an 800 mineral investment, it would take an additional 5 minutes of MULE mining before you saw a positive return on your investment.
You can reduce a lot of that though.
200/200 on replicator to get a unit that can now repair your mechanical units, arguably worth it in itself. 400 on CC, when you'd spend that on a nexus anyways 100 for supply depot 150 for barracks 150 for orbital You now are 2 mules away from being past par not including CC cost, and have access to scans now
The downside is that you won't get the mass recall that nexus get now.
Overall I'd say it's still a choice on whether it will be worth it for the current game, but I wouldn't discount seeing it in pro level play if the situation is right.
I actually think this is a pretty cool unit. Somewhat similar to the dark archon; I always did find it annoying that zerg had taken mind control. More seriously, I think the fully researched aspect will allow for clutch defenses or very interesting tactics with current abilities that just don't get used much due to their cost and niche. The replicated tank would give incredible defensive ability for toss, and replicated ravens would come with the ability to pdd or seeker missile, which could easily turn a battle against mmm. Against zerg I'm not so certain what it would be good for. Most zerg units aren't very good in small numbers, so the obvious use would seem to be spell casters such as the infestor. Still, I don't see how those, in small numbers, will be so critical for the toss army.
I wouldn't worry about it energy after the morph and the abilities will be the first thing to be nerfed. (its supposed to be op so they can nerf it etc ...), which denies any theoretic advance on the new units now, because everything will get nerfed before the release. Unless you think about what nerfs will they do first if its to strong and what can it do then ... etc until the point is reach where its not thread worthy here.
What energy does the replicated caster start at? I swear I hard that it replicated into a full energy version--well in the MLG Protoss unit overview the guy said something about replicating a full energy sentry.
If this is so, then those early Ghost pushes will become really hard to do. Usually they push out with EMP and no Cloak, if you can replicate a Ghost you not only have EMP but you also have Cloak, giving you the advantage over the Terran--which his kinda funny if you think about it lol
Same with early Banshees, if a Terran goes early Banshees then he has to also make sure that he is safe against Cloaked banshees as well
Also, if it does infact replicate full energy versions of casters then panic Sentries is one that I see being a common use.
Hell in any panic situation this unit will shine, because in those situations people even pay 400/400 for an extra Voidray or Sentry because it would mean they don't just flat out lose the game.
Other than that the obvious for me Orbital Commands. Unless I'm super far behind, I really can't see my self in a scenario where you are in mid-late 2base / early 3base that you wouldn't start Orbital production. Mules will pay off the initial investment via increased income and expanding in general is much easier with Orbitals that you can build in safe areas and fly/lift-off as opposed to warping in Nexus's
If you do build an orbital I wonder if you can transfer probes to mine there or will you have to use SCVs. Also can you chrono boost (if its still in the game) your terran structures? Can SCVs repair the toss buildings and units?
On October 25 2011 00:34 FagaX wrote: Didn't they say that you cannot replicate workers?
No, this was answered directly by Browder and Kim in the Q&A session. You can copy workers, but the intimated that it isn't really worth it apart from getting your hands on an orbital.
getting access to all your opponents tech isnt worth 200/200? I would in the late game 100% .
You would still have to invest ridiculous amounts into fleshing out a second race's tech tree.
It's not a matter of replicating an SCV and then having access to marines. You get an SCV, build a CC, build a Barracks, and then you can produce marines at a pathetic rate. Your marines will suck compared to your opponents', since you'll have far less, and no upgrades for them. To make them comparable you'd have to make a Factory, Engineering Bays, Starports (Medivac support is essential), and a huge Barracks count to produce enough of them. At this point you might as well have picked Terran because that's where you're spending all your resources.
I think it's a better deal to replicate a drone because it's cheaper to expand by hatchery and you can build drones in bulk to catch up after effective worker harass (especially with queens doing larvae inject). Basically, just co-opt the zerg economic advantage without bothering with zerg tech.
Say you did this for your 3rd base. Rather than paying 400m for a nexus, you'd pay 500/200 for the ability to construct workers 3 at a time and be able to construct all subsequent expansions for only 300m. And if you invest in queens it's even better.
Hmm, does the Replicator require a Robo Bay, or can you build them just with a Robo Facility? The former would solve a lot of abuse cases (Siege Tank/Cloak Banshee timing before Terran can, etc.).
I definitely see commentators going to have a hay day informing about protoss eco in HotS. "Look like our protoss player is up in workers! 25 probes and 32 SCVs with MULE, his eco is going thru the roof!" Not to mention the ability to construct all unit at end game, making it the most ludicrous death ball. I seriously doubt the ability to replicate worker is going to be left there. It's just literally open up a can of worm in the balance.
I think this is a dumb unit... If it was limited to replicating your own units, I'd like it more. Protoss has always been about whomping your opponents with expensive beefy units and spells, not copying your opponent's units.
I see potential in being able to copy your own stuff, making replicants instead of immortals and morphing them to whatever you need when the time comes... But that sounds a lot like zerg larva. I'm also worried about stupid cheeses like a replicant void ray rush or something.
Are protoss going to be replicating siege tanks and doing tank pushes? Or infestors with fungal growth? Because both of those just sound totally stupid. Hope this doesn't make it through play-testing, it's such a terrible idea that sounds like something out of C&C. If anyone should've gotten this build it should've been zerg but its too similar to neural parasite.
SCV, tank, banshee raven,ghost, infestor, viper, drone, immortal voidray, if you get to lategame and have retarded amounts of money to burn, get like 10 replicators and copy the best unit depending on your opponents army, instant counter. And being able to copy basically anything your opponent has is very "protossy".
Edit: blink stalker + scv repair, literally never die.
I just have 1 thing to say: Chronoboosted reactor barracks... anyone remember stacraft 2 beta? where chronoboosted reactor barracks produced marines faster than you could say cheeze?
On October 25 2011 03:01 zex66 wrote: If you do build an orbital I wonder if you can transfer probes to mine there or will you have to use SCVs. Also can you chrono boost (if its still in the game) your terran structures? Can SCVs repair the toss buildings and units?
You can use probes You can boost non toss buildings. SCVs can repair toss units, and probably toss buildings.
On October 25 2011 02:53 aksfjh wrote: For those of you wanting to replicate an SCV and get orbitals, it would still cost 800 minerals and 230s (almost 4 minutes) before you got there. At an 800 mineral investment, it would take an additional 5 minutes of MULE mining before you saw a positive return on your investment.
No, the command center isn't an extra cost, because you can use it as an expansion (you were going to expand, right?). The supply depot isn't an extra cost, because it can replace a pylon. That leaves 300 minerals for barracks and the upgrade. That's one mule.
It's still 6 minutes before you see a benefit if you count the costs as normal costs. There will be no using it on a normal expand because it takes too long to get. You'd have to get it as a fast 3rd, but the sunk costs will make you vulnerable to timing pushes in the meantime. By the point it becomes a useful acquisition, it will be at a point where some other decisions would probably be less risky and more beneficial.
On October 25 2011 02:36 Twinmold wrote: <snip> You can copy your own units and this has a much higher usefulness than some seem to believe. While it is always going to be more expensive to replicate a unit than it is to just build it this is just a way to balance it as if it was cheaper why would you ever build anything other than replicants? The replicated unit will start with 200 energy (I believe) and every research for it unlocked. This is the major benefit replicants have over other units (besides its short build time) and why you would build them. Think about it, you started off with getting a robo and later proceed to get templar tech. While storm research is on its way a huge ball of marines comes knocking on your door. Without having AoE marines are pretty hard to deal with correct? But with this new unit you could warp in a templar, chronoboost out a replicant and have 2 storms ready for when the marines arrive. Your immediate demise has been averted.
You, again, are completely overstating the Replicant's usefulness.
For instance, in your marine example, you say that you see the huge ball of marines come up to your door and you somehow have time to warp in a Templar (presumably without storm researched, because if it is, why would you possibly need a replicant to be chronobosted out), as well as chronoboosting out a replicant. The replicant then, of course, replicates your own HT. We're not even sure at this point if you can replicate your own units, but thats beyond the point. In addition, despite Storm being researched, we still have NO IDEA how much energy the ReplicatedHT will start out with. In addition, 200/200 would be enough to get 2 more sentries and a zealot. Adding in the replicator solves no core issues of the Protoss race.
tl;dr - You're thinking of new usages for this useless unit without any backup of stats. Yes, the majority of Protoss players are writing it off as a worthless waste of space, but that's because it's just completely a filler unit that solves no core problems.
A replicant can copy your own units and I'm fairly certain that I read somewhere that the replicant gets full energy when it replicates a caster. As for your other points I'm talking about when the ball leaves their base ofc (you can scout can't you?) and two storms affect a battle a hell of alot more than 2 forcefields and a zealot would. The replicant just in general solves many of the issues protoss have atm with their tech tree in that the different wings are so seperated.
On October 25 2011 03:04 DuneBug wrote: I think this is a dumb unit... If it was limited to replicating your own units, I'd like it more. Protoss has always been about whomping your opponents with expensive beefy units and spells, not copying your opponent's units.
I see potential in being able to copy your own stuff, making replicants instead of immortals and morphing them to whatever you need when the time comes... But that sounds a lot like zerg larva. I'm also worried about stupid cheeses like a replicant void ray rush or something.
Are protoss going to be replicating siege tanks and doing tank pushes? Or infestors with fungal growth? Because both of those just sound totally stupid. Hope this doesn't make it through play-testing, it's such a terrible idea that sounds like something out of C&C. If anyone should've gotten this build it should've been zerg but its too similar to neural parasite.
I agree. I wouldn't worry too much about cheeses though, if you are going to voidray rush why would not just get another stargate instead of a robo?
On October 25 2011 02:53 aksfjh wrote: For those of you wanting to replicate an SCV and get orbitals, it would still cost 800 minerals and 230s (almost 4 minutes) before you got there. At an 800 mineral investment, it would take an additional 5 minutes of MULE mining before you saw a positive return on your investment.
No, the command center isn't an extra cost, because you can use it as an expansion (you were going to expand, right?). The supply depot isn't an extra cost, because it can replace a pylon. That leaves 300 minerals for barracks and the upgrade. That's one mule.
It's still 6 minutes before you see a benefit if you count the costs as normal costs. There will be no using it on a normal expand because it takes too long to get. You'd have to get it as a fast 3rd, but the sunk costs will make you vulnerable to timing pushes in the meantime. By the point it becomes a useful acquisition, it will be at a point where some other decisions would probably be less risky and more beneficial.
It's not that much in sunk cost. You basically replace one colossus with one replicator turned scv. I think that can easily be made up with the fact that scvs can repair colossi.
On October 25 2011 02:53 aksfjh wrote: For those of you wanting to replicate an SCV and get orbitals, it would still cost 800 minerals and 230s (almost 4 minutes) before you got there. At an 800 mineral investment, it would take an additional 5 minutes of MULE mining before you saw a positive return on your investment.
No, the command center isn't an extra cost, because you can use it as an expansion (you were going to expand, right?). The supply depot isn't an extra cost, because it can replace a pylon. That leaves 300 minerals for barracks and the upgrade. That's one mule.
It's still 6 minutes before you see a benefit if you count the costs as normal costs. There will be no using it on a normal expand because it takes too long to get. You'd have to get it as a fast 3rd, but the sunk costs will make you vulnerable to timing pushes in the meantime. By the point it becomes a useful acquisition, it will be at a point where some other decisions would probably be less risky and more beneficial.
How is it much slower then a regular expand? Unless your build is dependent on 100% robo utilization for collusus the CC would come at the same time as your regular third/fourth, with the sunk cost only being 200/200, and if your defense at that point comes down to 200/200 in units then it is darn thin for that point in the game. The orbital itself would be later, but the CC is just as good as the nexus at that point, if not better(liftoff).
On October 25 2011 03:04 DuneBug wrote: I think this is a dumb unit... If it was limited to replicating your own units, I'd like it more. Protoss has always been about whomping your opponents with expensive beefy units and spells, not copying your opponent's units.
I actually like this idea. It makes the unit less of a gamble of what your opponent is building and more of a calculated decision (time efficiency/flexibility vs cost/supply efficiency), not to mention solves most abuse cases.
I personally think it's a very "Zergy" unit (adaptation), but I think it fills better fills a hole in Protoss' gameplay.
On October 25 2011 03:04 Gijian wrote: I definitely see commentators going to have a hay day informing about protoss eco in HotS. "Look like our protoss player is up in workers! 25 probes and 32 SCVs with MULE, his eco is going thru the roof!" Not to mention the ability to construct all unit at end game, making it the most ludicrous death ball. I seriously doubt the ability to replicate worker is going to be left there. It's just literally open up a can of worm in the balance.
How often do you see Zerg players neural parasite a Probe and build a Nexus? Granted it's somewhat less convenient, but it's still not as effective a strategy as you might think.
In over 10 years of professional Brood War I can only think of two examples where enemy workers were mind controlled, and one of them was the longest game ever played.
On October 25 2011 01:14 Balgrog wrote: well since the replicant is 100 mins cheaper than a collosus, instead of cranking out collosus, why not just get 4-5 replicants, wait to see what you are dealing with and then go from there, turn them into ghosts, immortals, brood lords, infestors. This unit has the potentional to change the entire way Protoss is played!
One more time... DOESNT WORK ON MASSIVE
Oh reread.
Yea forgot about that, but still, PvP with ghost's would be really interesting.
You can't replicate ghosts if it's a PvP -.-'
You would get ghosts as Protoss if it's PvT, where the ghosts wouldn't be nearly as important to have on the Protoss side.
On October 25 2011 03:04 Gijian wrote: I definitely see commentators going to have a hay day informing about protoss eco in HotS. "Look like our protoss player is up in workers! 25 probes and 32 SCVs with MULE, his eco is going thru the roof!" Not to mention the ability to construct all unit at end game, making it the most ludicrous death ball. I seriously doubt the ability to replicate worker is going to be left there. It's just literally open up a can of worm in the balance.
How often do you see Zerg players neural parasite a Probe and build a Nexus? Granted it's somewhat less convenient, but it's still not as effective a strategy as you might think.
In over 10 years of professional Brood War I can only think of two examples where enemy workers were mind controlled, and one of them was the longest game ever played.
"somewhat less convenient"? Replicating a drone or scv is extremely easy. Just fly an ob over to their mineral line. That's it! BW Mind Control was difficult because you had to find a way to get your dark archon deep into their base, then find a way to get the worker out of their base. NP is also hard given the time limit and having to be near their base. Your opponent will be aware of it and will go out and kill the nexus/cc given its proximity to his base.
On October 25 2011 03:04 Gijian wrote: I definitely see commentators going to have a hay day informing about protoss eco in HotS. "Look like our protoss player is up in workers! 25 probes and 32 SCVs with MULE, his eco is going thru the roof!" Not to mention the ability to construct all unit at end game, making it the most ludicrous death ball. I seriously doubt the ability to replicate worker is going to be left there. It's just literally open up a can of worm in the balance.
How often do you see Zerg players neural parasite a Probe and build a Nexus? Granted it's somewhat less convenient, but it's still not as effective a strategy as you might think.
In over 10 years of professional Brood War I can only think of two examples where enemy workers were mind controlled, and one of them was the longest game ever played.
The big difference I see is that Brood War did not have MULES. This is the real utility of it. As far as NP, its pretty awkward to make a CC with NP, as you would have to chain NP it for a long time to get it up. For Zerg, with their hatchery mechanics a Nexus is just worse then a hatchery, but for Protoss unless you need more energy, a CC is just better.
If you can replicate your own units you can have certain upgrades so much quicker that you are supposed to actually. Sure it might be expensive, but if the terran is at your door and you have a replicator, why not warp in a HT anyways and just replicate it for a storm. Or what about collosusses with range without getting the range upgrade?
All speculation ofc since we don't really know yet what's gonna work and what's not gonna work.
On October 25 2011 01:14 Balgrog wrote: well since the replicant is 100 mins cheaper than a collosus, instead of cranking out collosus, why not just get 4-5 replicants, wait to see what you are dealing with and then go from there, turn them into ghosts, immortals, brood lords, infestors. This unit has the potentional to change the entire way Protoss is played!
One more time... DOESNT WORK ON MASSIVE
Oh reread.
Yea forgot about that, but still, PvP with ghost's would be really interesting.
You can't replicate ghosts if it's a PvP -.-'
You would get ghosts as Protoss if it's PvT, where the ghosts wouldn't be nearly as important to have on the Protoss side.
Look on the bright side! at least ghost cloak would be included! you could even grab an scv, build up to nuke silos and harass terran expos in the late game with ghosts... or even break siege lines with nuke threats before pushing with colossus ))) terran gettin SHIT ON in hots YEA /sadface
How often do you see Zerg players neural parasite a Probe and build a Nexus? Granted it's somewhat less convenient, but it's still not as effective a strategy as you might think.
NPing a probe requires the Infestor to be near the probe. Then the player must build and defend a Nexus within the area of the NP range, with the other player in full knowledge of what's going on. The Replicant only requires vision, can build in a controlled and safer location, and doesn't immediately tip off your opponent.
I think most people are really missing a trick here... The biggest thing the replicant gives Protoss is the ability to react to anything, regardless of the current state of the metagame, almost instantly.
Terrans latest 'all-in impossible to stop 1/1/1-like' build arrives at your doorstep? Replicate their composition - push stopped. Zerg's latest Roach/ling/infestor build looks set to roll you, replicate their composition and go toe-to-toe with them. You scout the latest flavour-of-the month Protoss Tempest rush coming, get one void then use the Replicant's 30 second build time to get 5 voids in less time then it would have taken to make 3 originally... Job done.
The Replicant gives Protoss the versatility to react to any situation in a heartbeat, and this will make this unit the corner-stone of many strong builds... You heard it here first!
I was thinking about units that would be worht to copy in each match up:
PvP
- Immortals -> is kinda stupid IMO. If you already have robo, just build an immortal. - Void ray -> could be fine, but almost noone uses Air in PvP anyway - MAYBE DTs/HTs -> specially DTs, so you can get some "hidden" map control.
I don't think it's worth copying any other unit knowing we can't copy massive (Collossous and Tempest)
PvT
- Tanks -> this way you can gain some stable map control, but in PvT terrans usually go for bioball, period. - Raven -> you can get some PDDs and protect your collosous from vikings - Ghost -> EMP their ghosts...? - SCV -> best option IMO. Build CC and get MULES/Scans or PF
PvZ
- Infestor -> so you can Fungal/NP or go for sneaky infestor harass. ................
I think they should allow to copy massive units at least in beta and see how it goes. I think it could be funny see people overcopying Collosous in PvP or Ultras in PvZ.
Specially in PvP, being able to get collosous for less cost and with Thermal Lance would make ppl consider rushing for collosous tech being afraid of more powerfull copies and maybe we'd see better PvP overall.
Anyway, in general I think this unit is kinda useless. If i'm playing Protos, why should I want to copy other races? Blizzard said something like "now you'll be able to copy the units you consider OP"... Why they don't just balance the game and add better units for P in Hots?
Well I plan on replicating scvs to build orbitals ad barracks, and using the rax to supplement my force with marines which would be dropped with warp prisms.
On October 25 2011 03:04 Gijian wrote: I definitely see commentators going to have a hay day informing about protoss eco in HotS. "Look like our protoss player is up in workers! 25 probes and 32 SCVs with MULE, his eco is going thru the roof!" Not to mention the ability to construct all unit at end game, making it the most ludicrous death ball. I seriously doubt the ability to replicate worker is going to be left there. It's just literally open up a can of worm in the balance.
How often do you see Zerg players neural parasite a Probe and build a Nexus? Granted it's somewhat less convenient, but it's still not as effective a strategy as you might think.
In over 10 years of professional Brood War I can only think of two examples where enemy workers were mind controlled, and one of them was the longest game ever played.
First off, the ability to take an enemy unit is not like anything we have seen up until now. NP is putting the infestor dangerous position. Why would a probe be running around the map by itself to allow infestors to steal it? In contrast Replicator can just take the unit from inside the base and use the SCVs to expand inside his base then move out just like the terran do, safe expansion. Same goes with BW days, the ability to take a unit in the safety of the base vs having to stumble across on the map.
REplicating mass seige tanks to counter marines really calls into question the viability of marine tank! Not that we used that before. It is strange though since replicants can copy units many times more expensive. I really have to learn more
On October 25 2011 03:19 Audemed wrote: The base problem is simply, why do I want to steal terran units? I want to have a Protoss that doesn't depend on other races' units to survive.
Because Terran OP.
On a serious note, does "all upgrades" include Weapons/Armour upgrades? I would assume not, but you never know.
On October 25 2011 02:26 CurtisC wrote: Yo dawg, I heard you like replicators so we replicated your replicator so you can replicate while you replicate
On October 25 2011 03:18 Lumpybd wrote: Zerg's latest Roach/ling/infestor build looks set to roll you, replicate their composition and go toe-to-toe with them.
How exactly would you do that? Let's ignore, that each unit would cost 200/200 and take 4 supply. You would have to build them in advance and he could still just roll you with zerglings.
On October 25 2011 03:18 Foirtchern wrote: What about Medivacs? Maybe not the most cost effective, but chargelot drops with Medivac support could be pretty damned awesome :D
Now this I can get behind!
Dropping with one warp prism + a bunch of medivacs?
Or a push with mass blink stalkers? Not just to micro away from battle, but to be instantly healed by 4 or 5 medivacs!
On October 25 2011 03:19 Audemed wrote: The base problem is simply, why do I want to steal terran units? I want to have a Protoss that doesn't depend on other races' units to survive.
On October 25 2011 03:18 Foirtchern wrote: What about Medivacs? Maybe not the most cost effective, but chargelot drops with Medivac support could be pretty damned awesome :D
Now this I can get behind!
Dropping with one warp prism + a bunch of medivacs?
Or a push with mass blink stalkers? Not just to micro away from battle, but to be instantly healed by 4 or 5 medivacs!
I dont think medivacs can heal stalkers. Actually Scvs can repair them
On October 25 2011 03:04 Gijian wrote: I definitely see commentators going to have a hay day informing about protoss eco in HotS. "Look like our protoss player is up in workers! 25 probes and 32 SCVs with MULE, his eco is going thru the roof!" Not to mention the ability to construct all unit at end game, making it the most ludicrous death ball. I seriously doubt the ability to replicate worker is going to be left there. It's just literally open up a can of worm in the balance.
How often do you see Zerg players neural parasite a Probe and build a Nexus? Granted it's somewhat less convenient, but it's still not as effective a strategy as you might think.
In over 10 years of professional Brood War I can only think of two examples where enemy workers were mind controlled, and one of them was the longest game ever played.
First off, the ability to take an enemy unit is not like anything we have seen up until now. NP is putting the infestor dangerous position. Why would a probe be running around the map by itself to allow infestors to steal it? In contrast Replicator can just take the unit from inside the base and use the SCVs to expand inside his base then move out just like the terran do, safe expansion. Same goes with BW days, the ability to take a unit in the safety of the base vs having to stumble across on the map.
Ummmm you do realize that in BW there was mind control......and its not "that" hard to do it...hell someone opened dts and did it against [oops]cloud in a televised game to transition to zealot/tank.
On October 25 2011 03:18 Foirtchern wrote: What about Medivacs? Maybe not the most cost effective, but chargelot drops with Medivac support could be pretty damned awesome :D
Now this I can get behind!
Dropping with one warp prism + a bunch of medivacs?
Or a push with mass blink stalkers? Not just to micro away from battle, but to be instantly healed by 4 or 5 medivacs!
I dont think medivacs can heal stalkers. Actually Scvs can repair them
Terran opens with 1-1-1. You chrono out a few Replicants and build 3/4 Gates and all-in. Replicate the first siege tank that comes out, and you'll have 2 or 3 siege tanks with siege mode vs 1 siege tank without siege mode. GG.
This all-in will replace the VR all-in vs Terran. Basically Terran is going to have to open with Bio every game.
This makes absolutely no sense to me. Chrono out a few replicants that cost 200-200? Toss wont have the econ to support that so early in the game.
The best unit to replicate will be the raven mark my words. You instantly get all its upgrades and you can cast emp/seeker missle against marauders
So I'm more confused-- does this unit allow the opponent to mind control an scv or drone? That 200/200 price tag is worth that alone. Supplementing your army with different units is super cool.
But oh do I miss the deays of BW and mind control 400 food armies :D
On October 25 2011 03:04 Gijian wrote: I definitely see commentators going to have a hay day informing about protoss eco in HotS. "Look like our protoss player is up in workers! 25 probes and 32 SCVs with MULE, his eco is going thru the roof!" Not to mention the ability to construct all unit at end game, making it the most ludicrous death ball. I seriously doubt the ability to replicate worker is going to be left there. It's just literally open up a can of worm in the balance.
How often do you see Zerg players neural parasite a Probe and build a Nexus? Granted it's somewhat less convenient, but it's still not as effective a strategy as you might think.
In over 10 years of professional Brood War I can only think of two examples where enemy workers were mind controlled, and one of them was the longest game ever played.
First off, the ability to take an enemy unit is not like anything we have seen up until now. NP is putting the infestor dangerous position. Why would a probe be running around the map by itself to allow infestors to steal it? In contrast Replicator can just take the unit from inside the base and use the SCVs to expand inside his base then move out just like the terran do, safe expansion. Same goes with BW days, the ability to take a unit in the safety of the base vs having to stumble across on the map.
Ummmm you do realize that in BW there was mind control......and its not "that" hard to do it...hell someone opened dts and did it against [oops]cloud in a televised game to transition to zealot/tank.
On October 25 2011 03:18 Lumpybd wrote: Zerg's latest Roach/ling/infestor build looks set to roll you, replicate their composition and go toe-to-toe with them.
How exactly would you do that? Let's ignore, that each unit would cost 200/200 and take 4 supply. You would have to build them in advance and he could still just roll you with zerglings.
Because while you are building up your army and expanding the way you normally would, you will also be squeezing replicants into the mix. That way, when the opponents push arrives, you can immediately adjust your composition as necessary.
I'm not saying you would match them on numbers... The cost of the a replicant makes that impossible. What I am saying is that you have the ability to instantly adjust your composition to react to pretty much anything.
On October 25 2011 03:18 Foirtchern wrote: What about Medivacs? Maybe not the most cost effective, but chargelot drops with Medivac support could be pretty damned awesome :D
Now this I can get behind!
Dropping with one warp prism + a bunch of medivacs?
Or a push with mass blink stalkers? Not just to micro away from battle, but to be instantly healed by 4 or 5 medivacs!
I dont think medivacs can heal stalkers. Actually Scvs can repair them
Ah, that's too bad SCVs wouldn't be able to keep up with moving (let alone blinking) stalkers to repair.
On October 25 2011 03:04 Gijian wrote: I definitely see commentators going to have a hay day informing about protoss eco in HotS. "Look like our protoss player is up in workers! 25 probes and 32 SCVs with MULE, his eco is going thru the roof!" Not to mention the ability to construct all unit at end game, making it the most ludicrous death ball. I seriously doubt the ability to replicate worker is going to be left there. It's just literally open up a can of worm in the balance.
How often do you see Zerg players neural parasite a Probe and build a Nexus? Granted it's somewhat less convenient, but it's still not as effective a strategy as you might think.
In over 10 years of professional Brood War I can only think of two examples where enemy workers were mind controlled, and one of them was the longest game ever played.
First off, the ability to take an enemy unit is not like anything we have seen up until now. NP is putting the infestor dangerous position. Why would a probe be running around the map by itself to allow infestors to steal it? In contrast Replicator can just take the unit from inside the base and use the SCVs to expand inside his base then move out just like the terran do, safe expansion. Same goes with BW days, the ability to take a unit in the safety of the base vs having to stumble across on the map.
People scout with Probes all the time, and lay proxy Pylons all over the map. In BW it really wasn't that hard to drop a Dark Archon in the enemy base, Mind Control a worker and then make good your escape.
No, the reason it wasn't/isn't done is because it is prohibitively expensive to climb two tech trees, to the point where it's only a viable strategy in an already won game. Stealing SCVs just for Orbital Commands is another matter though.
I think one target of the Replicator I haven't seen mentioned are Void Rays and Oracles. Protoss need a Robo for Observers, but if you're going Stargate then you're going to have a lot of idle Robo time. By making Replicators out of the Robo you can reduce the number of Stargates you need by 1. And in the case of Void Rays and Oracles, you're only down 50 resources by making a copy instead of the raw unit.
There's other timing stuff too. Like rushing HT, and getting Storm earlier than normal because you copy your own high templar instead of waiting for storm reasearch to finish.
On October 25 2011 03:38 WillDerBeast wrote: I'm wondering if the replicated units will be 3/3 upgraded too. If they are then the price isn't bad at all for 200/200.
I saw you can pretty much make only Replicators, and move out, make what ever they have + a couple zelots and w/e else. Could def come in handy if they have tanks and marines, and u have zel and reps. make their tanks and destroy his army. this is coming from a zerg so i dont know if what im saying helps.
Is it confirmed that the replicator has infinite range?? Ie. you could replicate something in your base while having vision with an observer?
I don't like how this unit is shaping up at all because as it looks now it's not effective to copy your own units, since you need to be able to make it first anyway and then you're better off simply building the unit then replicating it as the replicator is more expensive then anything you have. Thus it's best use by far is against enemy tech units (they are most expensive) where you can use the free upgrades to punish them. For example a raven with PDD to own marauders (which they have to make) or even HSM to kill packs of rines/scv's. A banshee is another great target as you apparently get a banshee with cloak for just 200/200 which easily forces the terran into expensive scans or turrets. As a result the existence of this unit in this form actively punishes especially terran for going certain tech units. What good is banshee harass anymore if the same tech that counters the cloak banshee also stomps you hard back for having made a banshee. What good is a raven opening if your just giving the opponent a shot to get a cheap raven with upgrades. What good are tanks even if you're giving the opponent easy access to a few siege tanks. Yes in each case the P will pay more then T did but some of the units are much better in a protoss army, if you are forced into bio by P's tactic but also have to face siege tanks life gets hard..
I don't see the unit making it through the beta in this way and probably not at all. Stupid mechanic to punish your opponent for playing non standard.
While the idea of giving a race, in this case protoss, a unit that's sole purpose is to copy the other race's units is rather odd, I can't deny that i love the idea of the Replicant. I think the reason I really like it is for the incredible strategic variety it could bring to the table. I'm interested to see how this unit will play out. At this time, before beta and countless patches it sounds very intriguing. Too early to speculate much past that!
On October 25 2011 03:55 Markwerf wrote: Is it confirmed that the replicator has infinite range?? Ie. you could replicate something in your base while having vision with an observer?
I don't like how this unit is shaping up at all because as it looks now it's not effective to copy your own units, since you need to be able to make it first anyway and then you're better off simply building the unit then replicating it as the replicator is more expensive then anything you have. Thus it's best use by far is against enemy tech units (they are most expensive) where you can use the free upgrades to punish them. For example a raven with PDD to own marauders (which they have to make) or even HSM to kill packs of rines/scv's. A banshee is another great target as you apparently get a banshee with cloak for just 200/200 which easily forces the terran into expensive scans or turrets. As a result the existence of this unit in this form actively punishes especially terran for going certain tech units. What good is banshee harass anymore if the same tech that counters the cloak banshee also stomps you hard back for having made a banshee. What good is a raven opening if your just giving the opponent a shot to get a cheap raven with upgrades. What good are tanks even if you're giving the opponent easy access to a few siege tanks. Yes in each case the P will pay more then T did but some of the units are much better in a protoss army, if you are forced into bio by P's tactic but also have to face siege tanks life gets hard..
I don't see the unit making it through the beta in this way and probably not at all. Stupid mechanic to punish your opponent for playing non standard.
I don't see PDD against Marauders being that relevant, all that does is force the Terran to avoid an area for an amount of time, you can achieve a similar thing with forcefields. I would be much more interested in the ability to absorb viking shots.
If a replicator copies a caster how much energy does it have? Does it have the same amount as the copied unit? Does it have full energy? Or does it have the initial amount of the copied unit?
This could really change the effectivness of the replicator. Example, warping in 2 or 3 HT, or sentries, wait till they get full energy, and then you can just copy em, and have insta full energy copies of em.
On October 25 2011 04:01 Incognoto wrote: Raven/Banshee/Ghost/Infestor/Viper/Swarm Host/Immortal/Void Ray/High Templar might be worth it.
Archons will definitely be worth it (or are they massive?).
Archons are massive
I can definitely see copying scvs being quite useful. It will pay for itself with orbital command, and marines may complement a protoss death ball better than stalkers. They don't cost gas so you can get both colossi and sentries.
Can't seem to find out from anyone if you can replicate a hallucination unit. I can have a sentry with 100 energy on the board the same time as replicant and hallucination. Then bring out a full charged storm ready HT? That allows you to tech switch to air because you no longer need to rely on the colossi to clean up bio or you could stay with blink stalkers now that you can fry lings. This also gives toss a way to effectively warp prism drop charged HT's before the 10 minute mark.
And you can recall those suckers back home just in case...
On October 25 2011 04:01 Incognoto wrote: Raven/Banshee/Ghost/Infestor/Viper/Swarm Host/Immortal/Void Ray/High Templar might be worth it.
Archons will definitely be worth it (or are they massive?).
Archons are massive
I can definitely see copying scvs being quite useful. It will pay for itself with orbital command, and marines may complement a protoss death ball better than stalkers. They don't cost gas so you can get both colossi and sentries.
Marines are far too squishy without upgrades and Medivac support to be much use in a large Protoss force, I would think. The purpose of Stalkers in a Stalker/Colossus force vs T is to tank damage, prevent Marauders bumrushing your Colossus and shoot down Vikings (or keep them away). Since the Stalker can take much more punishment, occupies more space and has superior range + blink, I think it actually outperforms the Marine in all those roles. The Marine's main role is pure damage output, which is what you have the Colossus for in the first place.
I can definitely foresee a lot of tricky timings and builds with this unit though. It introduces a powerful element of flexibility to the Protoss.
I'm thinking the #1 target to replicate PvT would be an SCV.
The problem is.... just how do you get the SCV out of the terran main/natural base alive?
#1 - Warp Prisim? #2 - Nexus recall? #3 - Get lucky and catch a scouting SCV?
I think it would be great to get an SCV early in the match if you could.
SCV->make a CC -> make an Ebay -> Plantaries & Sensor Towers & Mechanical repair would be fantastic.
But, IMO the actual mechanics of rushing to go snag one *early* SCV with a warp prism seem to be very hard. Or very expensive with a nexus recall (its 3 chronobosts... right?)
I don't think there would be a real way to get a SCV until the Terran tries to take a 3rd, unless you get really lucky.
So I can replicate an scv build an orbital mule like crazy then attack with 2 colossus replicants to change the composition on the fly and bring all these chronoboosted scv's on auto repair.
On October 25 2011 04:23 RCMDVA wrote: I'm thinking the #1 target to replicate PvT would be an SCV.
The problem is.... just how do you get the SCV out of the terran main/natural base alive?
#1 - Warp Prisim? #2 - Nexus recall? #3 - Get lucky and catch a scouting SCV?
I think it would be great to get an SCV early in the match if you could.
SCV->make a CC -> make an Ebay -> Plantaries & Sensor Towers & Mechanical repair would be fantastic.
But, IMO the actual mechanics of rushing to go snag one *early* SCV with a warp prism seem to be very hard. Or very expensive with a nexus recall (its 3 chronobosts... right?)
I don't think there would be a real way to get a SCV until the Terran tries to take a 3rd, unless you get really lucky.
You don't need to be in their base, and this is what I'm thinking. The idea of going marine colossus against Terran makes me happy.
On October 25 2011 04:24 Sabin010 wrote: So I can replicate an scv build an orbital mule like crazy then attack with 2 colossus replicants to change the composition on the fly and bring all these chronoboosted scv's on auto repair.
No, because half those things are impossible. Read the OP.
-Can you replicate Mules? Permanent Mules would be interesting.... -Tech switches, tanks, casters, DT's, and banshees seem to be the only viable reasons (though I'm questioning Medivacs for Zealots and HT's, and SCV's for machines). -Also, this is a clarification thing. When they see all Upgrades, they DO NOT mean that they come in 3/3, right?
vT: Tanks: The only reason to get siege tanks with replicators i can think of is to defend a timing push and use your high-ground advantage with the siege tank. I don't see any siege battles like in TvT because even though you might have vision advantage (observer), your tanks will cost 200/200 instead of his 150/125 plus his dropping capability will be superior.
Ghosts: The only reason for this would be to EMP other ghosts. But them again, feedback would probably be easier.
Banshees: Dealing with cloaked banshees as a terran is a real pain in TvT already and vP many won't expect it. Might be worth it to get one or two just for harassment and scouting. In the actual battle however, they probably won't be of much use, especially as i foresee terran fielding a lot of warhounds vP.
Vikings: No reason to get those, get a phoenix instead. Unless you desparately need flying anti-air and don't have a stargate.
Medivac: Healing zealots sound really scary, we'll have to see how good battle-hellions are at keeping them at bay to judge if it'll be worth getting a medivac for the cost of 2.
Raven: This one is a real bargain. Costs almost as much as a replicator anyways and comes will all the upgrades (which terrans don't get usually) if i understand the mechanic correctly. Hello, instand Seeker missile ! PDD might also serve is most situations.
I cannot comment on Warhounds as i don't know their exact stats yet but i think you'd just be better off with immortals for anti-mechanical and stalkers or phoenix for anti-air. Yeah and Marines, marauders, Reapers, Hellions - seriously ? No.
vZ: Lings, Blings, Roaches and Hydras are obviously far too cheap for replication and don't offer anything special. Blings might work well vs mass-lings but 200/200 for a bling ? Better get some Archons, Collossi or storm.
Infestors: While yours will be a lot more expensive than his, you also have the potential to inflict more damage, especially lings and blings are very vulnerable to this, not to mention clumped up mutas. Depends on his composition though. Might also suit as harassment with burrow move and infested terrans.
Mutas/Corruptor: Get some phoenix instead.
Viper: I don't see any use for them in the protoss arsenal. Blinding cloud might have some uses against casters or anti-air but 200/200 is just too much for that kind of situational use.
Swarm Host: Can't really say yet but my gut says no.
vP: Well, in principal you can build everything yourself, BUT, if i understand the mechanic correctly, you will get all the upgrades - allowing you to get storm faster than normal for example.
But there are two other reasons for which i would get replicators in PvP. The first is for timing pushes. A replicator builds much faster than most non-gateway protoss units. So you could get 1 immortal and 3 replicators faster than 4 immortals and just clone them (for more cost obviously). Same thing for voidrays (although here the cost is actually not much higher). Also replicators grant you a lot of reactionary freedom. Say you got 1 immortal 1 voidray and 3 replicators. You move out and see your opponent has plenty ground but little anti-air. Clone your voidray ! He has a lot of stalkers instead ? Clone your immortals ! This can obviously also be done in other matchups. Against terran for example (here you could also steal the odd tank or banshee).
All in all i don't see Protoss using a lot of replicators in PvZ. In PvT they will have some uses, however (probably mainly for tanks, banshees and ravens). Also, PvP might have some reactionary strategies involving heavy use of replicators.
I think using this unit instead of the immortal to counter 1/1/1 could be very powerful. Imagine having siege tanks at your natural when his push hits? Or using a cloaked banshee of your own to force scans and keep his units in his base.
On October 25 2011 04:23 RCMDVA wrote: I'm thinking the #1 target to replicate PvT would be an SCV.
The problem is.... just how do you get the SCV out of the terran main/natural base alive?
#1 - Warp Prisim? #2 - Nexus recall? #3 - Get lucky and catch a scouting SCV?
I think it would be great to get an SCV early in the match if you could.
SCV->make a CC -> make an Ebay -> Plantaries & Sensor Towers & Mechanical repair would be fantastic.
But, IMO the actual mechanics of rushing to go snag one *early* SCV with a warp prism seem to be very hard. Or very expensive with a nexus recall (its 3 chronobosts... right?)
I don't think there would be a real way to get a SCV until the Terran tries to take a 3rd, unless you get really lucky.
It helps alot to watch the video of the unit. The replicator stays in a spot and when vision is gained of the target unit then the "replicate" ability can be used. The target unit is then copied at the Replicant's current position.
So you could send an observer into the enemy base, gain vision of an scv and then turn the replicant into an SCV in your own base. Pretty easy. However, i'm not convinced this will see much competitive useage.
On October 25 2011 04:23 RCMDVA wrote: I'm thinking the #1 target to replicate PvT would be an SCV.
The problem is.... just how do you get the SCV out of the terran main/natural base alive?
#1 - Warp Prisim? #2 - Nexus recall? #3 - Get lucky and catch a scouting SCV?
I think it would be great to get an SCV early in the match if you could.
SCV->make a CC -> make an Ebay -> Plantaries & Sensor Towers & Mechanical repair would be fantastic.
But, IMO the actual mechanics of rushing to go snag one *early* SCV with a warp prism seem to be very hard. Or very expensive with a nexus recall (its 3 chronobosts... right?)
I don't think there would be a real way to get a SCV until the Terran tries to take a 3rd, unless you get really lucky.
The replicator will be safely in the toss base. You simply need vision of the SCV, then select the replicator and target the SCV with the replicate skill. Replicate is a single-target skill with unlimited range.
Sorry to burst your bubble but getting drones or scvs is a total waste of time. No semi-decent opponent will give you the time to develop an entire second tech tree (not to mention the cost). Also, why should you ? If there are units in his arsenal that you want, replicate them in the first place.
And for buildings ? Sorry but OCs and PFs are really not that good. Unless you can unlock a second 200 supply with this maneuver, there won't be any benefit.
I am just gonna 1 base 3 gate robo terrans and pressure their ramp till they pop out their first siege tank. I will promptly replicate it and lololol my way to victory.
This unit will only be used in stopping hard timing attacks and as a part of timing attacks. It has no function in a "standard" game.
On October 25 2011 00:46 wiredrat wrote: Can you replicate mules? Will them last forever? That would be awesome for Protoss players
I assume you can only replicate units that don't have an expiration. So no infested terrans, broodlings, locusts, or MULE.
Even if it was possible, why would you want to get a MULE for 200/200. A MULE is worth at best 5.3 workers, which cost only 265 minerals. Also, your MULE would cost 4 supply so no real gain there either.
Would be pretty awesome, to get scan as toss. If you replicate a ghost, will it then have a nuke§?! think not I think replicating War hounds to break siege lines, is pretty good, as a responsive move.
But what i have to do in a game, just for kicks. Is if i can't have my mothership, i will steal scv and make the new Odin and own a terran, which i already beat. To bad mothership is gone, or i could have both.
If u can replicate, used replicators, that would be pretty insane. Going mass ravens as toss and junk like that.
Can see Blinding Cloud, combined with forcefields all around it, being pretty powerful.
On October 25 2011 04:55 Asymmetric wrote: How about a few medivacs? There common enough so it shouldn't be an issue.
Healing zealots would be pretty bloody hard to kill. Expensive, but potentially worth it.
I don't see this being too effective because Zealots are kind of supposed to die. And then you make more. Protoss is so gas-hungry that you almost always have minerals out the wazoo to spend on Zealots, whereas you don't want to spend gas on replicating Medivacs.
On October 25 2011 04:50 Snorkle wrote: I am just gonna 1 base 3 gate robo terrans and pressure their ramp till they pop out their first siege tank. I will promptly replicate it and lololol my way to victory.
This unit will only be used in stopping hard timing attacks and as a part of timing attacks. It has no function in a "standard" game.
It has a function whenever you want to tech switch because it lets you "make" units from other tech routes with your robotics facility. Together with their short buildtime and that replicated units get full energy and all their abilities unlocked the replicant should become a pretty common occurrence in all matchups.
I can't imagine that the replicator will ever make it into the game as it was intended - how could you possibly balance protoss if it had access to its opponents tech-tree? That's like....balancing 2 whole different, additional races at any given random point in time o_O
Marine/colossus-deathball anyone? vikings and bio both melts in seconds
On October 25 2011 05:05 sleepingdog wrote: I can't imagine that the replicator will ever make it into the game as it was intended - how could you possibly balance protoss if it had access to its opponents tech-tree? That's like....balancing 2 whole different, additional races at any given random point in time o_O
That's why I suggest removing the ability to copy your opponents units.
OMG lol you could make 2 200 food armies in BW? insane xD
Anyways, yeah I think tanks are definitely possible, especially since tanks in mass numbers beat colossi by a lot i think if you compare them 2 to 1. Although, replicators are 4 food, so it's more like 1.5 tank vs 1 colossi eh? Guess it depends on the unit composition, but sieging up a terran before they get siege will be interesting o.o
On October 25 2011 05:05 sleepingdog wrote: I can't imagine that the replicator will ever make it into the game as it was intended - how could you possibly balance protoss if it had access to its opponents tech-tree? That's like....balancing 2 whole different, additional races at any given random point in time o_O
It was possible in BW and that was pretty balanced IIRC.
On October 25 2011 04:55 Asymmetric wrote: How about a few medivacs? There common enough so it shouldn't be an issue.
Healing zealots would be pretty bloody hard to kill. Expensive, but potentially worth it.
I don't see this being too effective because Zealots are kind of supposed to die. And then you make more. Protoss is so gas-hungry that you almost always have minerals out the wazoo to spend on Zealots, whereas you don't want to spend gas on replicating Medivacs.
Maybe...
But at present Zealots shields just get blown away with EMP and it's there armour, health and guardian shields that keep them standing. Medivacs might just create a tipping point where combined with some guardian shields they just won't die from accumulative defences. I'd have to see it in action first.
If only zerg got them. Medivacs/queens on ultralisks in 2v2 is hilarious.
On October 24 2011 23:58 VTPerfect wrote: ...using the Replicator to morph into an SCV and then gain access to [...] medivacs cuz your units can't heal
Medivacs? To heal your Zealots and Templar? That would be all you could heal.
Aren't you a professional gamer? You'd think you'd be privy to this kind of stuff and think it through.
On October 25 2011 04:55 Asymmetric wrote: How about a few medivacs? There common enough so it shouldn't be an issue.
Healing zealots would be pretty bloody hard to kill. Expensive, but potentially worth it.
Well, I think the medivac is to cheap to replicate. It is true that it makes the zealots stronger, but for the same cost of healing one you could also have like 5-6 Zealots more. I think replicators will mainly be used on casters and other expensive units like immortals, siege tanks or swarm hosts,.
On October 25 2011 05:05 sleepingdog wrote: I can't imagine that the replicator will ever make it into the game as it was intended - how could you possibly balance protoss if it had access to its opponents tech-tree? That's like....balancing 2 whole different, additional races at any given random point in time o_O
Marine/colossus-deathball anyone? vikings and bio both melts in seconds
Paying 200/200 for a Marine sounds pretty weak to me.
On October 25 2011 04:23 RCMDVA wrote: I'm thinking the #1 target to replicate PvT would be an SCV.
The problem is.... just how do you get the SCV out of the terran main/natural base alive?
#1 - Warp Prisim? #2 - Nexus recall? #3 - Get lucky and catch a scouting SCV?
I think it would be great to get an SCV early in the match if you could.
SCV->make a CC -> make an Ebay -> Plantaries & Sensor Towers & Mechanical repair would be fantastic.
But, IMO the actual mechanics of rushing to go snag one *early* SCV with a warp prism seem to be very hard. Or very expensive with a nexus recall (its 3 chronobosts... right?)
I don't think there would be a real way to get a SCV until the Terran tries to take a 3rd, unless you get really lucky.
It helps alot to watch the video of the unit. The replicator stays in a spot and when vision is gained of the target unit then the "replicate" ability can be used. The target unit is then copied at the Replicant's current position.
So you could send an observer into the enemy base, gain vision of an scv and then turn the replicant into an SCV in your own base. Pretty easy. However, i'm not convinced this will see much competitive useage.
Really? It is almost impossible to not use this unit in any game that goes past the 2base. You can never really put a value on how much units like the Ghost, Viper or Infestor would cost if it were a Protoss unit, but it is almost a given that during some point in the game it WILL be worth investing 200/200 and 4pop for one. Especially Ghosts and Vipers. One of the harder things to do with Protoss is engaging out in the open, but if you have two or three Vipers replicated, their Cloud ability will make it sooo much easier
It is definitely a unit that rewards having a great understanding of the game, thus it will see much more meaningful use by the very top players as opposed to the mediocre.
It just opens up a whole bunch "what if" scenarios.
We have all seen Protoss camp the bottom of an enemy ramp or choke to contain them, but what about that exact same contain WITH two or three Siege tanks to boot?
Or maybe even replicating the new Thor like unit from Terran. It has such long range anti air, if you ever manage to secure an advantage in the early to mid game, then replicating one or two of those units will help immensely swatting away Vikings. Imagine pushing into the Terran base with some of those to back you up.
How a good player will use this unit will change game to game, scenario to scenario. It isn't like making a Colossus, that has a clear role, the Replicants only goal is whatever you make it to be.
Replicating Tanks in one game might be totally worth the unit cost whilst in your next game it would be the dumbest idea ever.
What it is worth replicating depends completely on the current state of the game your in. Just like the above example it might be worth replicating Siege tanks _right now_, but 5minutes later you could be finding your self a situation where the last thing you need is a Siege tank
As a terran when I think they are going replicant, I'll go mmm so the best thing they can replicate is medivac/marauder/marine, don't make any tanks or they can make them. :D
Wrote this in another thread, posting it here too.
The Replicant
This unit has been getting a decent amount of criticism, and while I think that this unit is kind of lame, it does have the ability to be extremely useful, given the current stats (which are subject to change). Massive theory crafting incoming.
The replicant builds in 30 seconds and combined with the ability to copy your own units, complete with abilities/energy, it could allow for some nasty tech-switches late game.
Source:
Cost of 1 replicant: 200/200/4pop 30sec build time
Scenario 1: You have 2 robos already and scout your opponent going for broodlords.
Step 1: Throw down stargate, start making replicants 1 stargate = 150/150/60sec 4 replicants = 800/800/ 60 sec (30sec*2=60, and with 2 robos, thats 4 per minute)
Subtotal: 1 Stargate: 150/150 16 replicants 3200/3200/64 population 3 VR: 750/450/9 population
Total Resource Cost: 4100/3800/73 population Total time cost: 240 seconds (4 minutes)
Scenario 2: You already have 2 robos and scout your opponent going for broodlords, but you don't like the replicant. You throw down brand-new stargates instead.
Step 1: Throw down 3 stargates 3 stargates = 450/450/60sec
Subtotal: 3 Stargate: 450/450 18 VR: 4500/2700/54 population
Total Resource Cost: 4950/3150/54 population Total resource cost with 19 Voidrays: 5200/3300/57population
Total time cost: 420 seconds (7 minutes)
Conclusion: Making replicants as a tech switch to voidrays from robo tech is not that effective in resource cost, but very effective in terms of time.
The strength of replicants is that you can effectively turn your robos into stargates, allowing you to begin constructing “voidrays” immediately upon scouting broodlords rather than having to wait a minute before production begins (stargates take 60 seconds to build during which time you are building no voidrays).
Replicants are a good stopgap measure to begin producing voidrays or immortals or high-templar quickly so that you can mass a lot of them ASAP. However, it isn’t a replacement because generally, you end up with a lot more population going into replicants. You also spend more resources in the long run. But if you began using your robos to produce replicants while you made a few stargates, you could have 2 replicants per robo in the time that your stargates are building, and then 2 more replicants per robo per voidray (voidrays also take 60 seconds to build). After you make a few stargates, it is better to just go pure voidrays unless you have a lot of gas to spare, or really need extra units NOW.
High Templar: In the case of high templar, you could get about 2 replicants per robo in the time that your templar archives is building (50 seconds), and then another 3-4 while the storm research finishes (110 seconds). This allows you to get full-energy high templar with the ability to storm right after your templar archives is finished. Might be useful: having "HT" with full energy and storm right as your templar archives finishes and not having to wait an extra 110 seconds for storm to finish researching.
In general, the warp-in mechanic makes it more reasonable to just make templar after storm finishes though (unless you really need those storms quickly) since the cost for a replicant is so high (200/200/4pop vs 50/150/2pop). The warpgate mechanic means that the replicant's short build-time is not as effective as in the void-ray's case, because in addition to HTs "building" faster (5 sec with warp-in), you also can get them anywhere. Replicants only spawn at robos.
Replicants allow you to decide if you want immediate storms for 150 more minerals, 50 gas and 2 pop per templar, or not.
Immortal: you can get ~2 replicants in the time it takes to get one immortal (55sec build time), but it costs twice the gas.
Dark templar: it's probably not that cost effective due to warp in.
The key strength is the ability to trade money for time: building a 3 stargates and then 3 voidrays at a time is a lot slower than making 4 replicants per minute from 2 robos + 1 voidray per minute from a stargate.
This allows a protoss who lacks enough production facilities to produce units he needs NOW (including the enemy’s) and gives him time to build up the infrastructure he really needs in the meantime. The downside is that you will pay a higher cost, especially gas and population.
On October 25 2011 05:07 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: OMG lol you could make 2 200 food armies in BW? insane xD
No, that's not true.
You could actually make 3 200 food armies in Brood War. You could command all 3 races at once. And it wasn't so much that you'd want to max out an army, even if you could, it would be that you could tech up and continually produce 1 or 2 unit types that would smash your opponents army. If you stole a drone, you'd want to go lurkers, and if you stole an SCV, you'd want to go tanks and vultures.
I think the real problem with the replicant is that it flies, and you can clone units that you have vision of regardless of where the replicant is. That means cloning tanks or swarm hosts allows you to gain a positional advantage much easier.
im sitting here pondering... trying to imagine a world where this isnt insanely imbalanced but....I dont think its possible lol. So many incredible roles that terran units can fill in the toss army as the OP mentioned. And yes, fungal storm is the most destructive force ever seen.
Or better, replicate Tanks, Hellions, etc in their mineral line.
[edit]
Oh forgot they replicate the state too, so siege thaks are sieged if you replicate them sieged. So indeed instant shreaders in mineral line is the way to go =P
On October 25 2011 05:05 sleepingdog wrote: I can't imagine that the replicator will ever make it into the game as it was intended - how could you possibly balance protoss if it had access to its opponents tech-tree? That's like....balancing 2 whole different, additional races at any given random point in time o_O
Marine/colossus-deathball anyone? vikings and bio both melts in seconds
Marines are too squishy and their range is too short to be very effective in that role, I think. A 5-range ground unit isn't going to be very good at warding away 9-range flying units.
You would also be giving up a lot of the advantages of Stalker/Colossus, such as shared upgrades, warp-in reinforcements, ability to abuse/ignore most terrain and regenerating shields between fights.
On October 25 2011 04:55 Asymmetric wrote: How about a few medivacs? There common enough so it shouldn't be an issue.
Healing zealots would be pretty bloody hard to kill. Expensive, but potentially worth it.
I don't see this being too effective because Zealots are kind of supposed to die. And then you make more. Protoss is so gas-hungry that you almost always have minerals out the wazoo to spend on Zealots, whereas you don't want to spend gas on replicating Medivacs.
Maybe...
But at present Zealots shields just get blown away with EMP and it's there armour, health and guardian shields that keep them standing. Medivacs might just create a tipping point where combined with some guardian shields they just won't die from accumulative defences. I'd have to see it in action first.
If only zerg got them. Medivacs/queens on ultralisks in 2v2 is hilarious.
Might be plausible, but remember that Terrans will now have use of Battle Hellions, which are pretty much explicitly made to roast Zealots.
On October 25 2011 05:24 Meatloaf wrote: actually medivacs would be quite good to have with protoss...
would they heal zealots stalkers sentries & templars? the sentry seems a weird unit to heal...
As a sidenote , i think they should give us a real unit , i dont like the idea of replicating units bc we dont have competent units for ourselves...
I'm cool with the other 2 units they showed although
Medivacs can only heal BIOLOGICAL units. In the protoss arsenal that are zealots and high and dark templars. All other units are MECHANICAL and cannot be healed. The can be repaired by scvs or MULEs though.
Think late game they could be useful for quick tech changes, but even then depending on build time the standard amount of robo's would restrict it, aswell to stockpile them untill hitting the switch would leave your standing army weaker while tieing up food.
Perhaps ravens, toss down a PDD if they have a heavy marauder composition, though if that became the norm Terran would just not build the ravens to start with. (They don't seem to build them anyway)
On October 25 2011 04:23 RCMDVA wrote: I'm thinking the #1 target to replicate PvT would be an SCV.
The problem is.... just how do you get the SCV out of the terran main/natural base alive?
#1 - Warp Prisim? #2 - Nexus recall? #3 - Get lucky and catch a scouting SCV?
I think it would be great to get an SCV early in the match if you could.
SCV->make a CC -> make an Ebay -> Plantaries & Sensor Towers & Mechanical repair would be fantastic.
But, IMO the actual mechanics of rushing to go snag one *early* SCV with a warp prism seem to be very hard. Or very expensive with a nexus recall (its 3 chronobosts... right?)
I don't think there would be a real way to get a SCV until the Terran tries to take a 3rd, unless you get really lucky.
It helps alot to watch the video of the unit. The replicator stays in a spot and when vision is gained of the target unit then the "replicate" ability can be used. The target unit is then copied at the Replicant's current position.
So you could send an observer into the enemy base, gain vision of an scv and then turn the replicant into an SCV in your own base. Pretty easy. However, i'm not convinced this will see much competitive useage.
It's odd that you can copy units of other races. This would make so much more sense if it was limited to protoss units, allowing for faster tech switches at a cost (as outlined above). It would make PvP interesting if a player didn't go robo first, but it would start to standardize builds so that robo is the first thing you go for and then the interest really remains in the later parts of the game. The other problem I have with this is the unlimited range. This really doesn't make sense to me. I'd rather give it a range of 10 or 13 and just leave it at that.
So it's 50 shields 50 life? I'd like to see it be even more fragile than that or at least have a "warp-in" time.
On October 25 2011 05:14 bovineblitz wrote: What happens if a zerg NPs a replicator and replicates something?
I don't see why it would be anything other than the obvious. The Zerg controlled-Replicator would turn into whatever you pick, and then would revert to Protoss control in a few seconds, still in the shape of whatever the Zerg turned it into.
On October 25 2011 04:23 RCMDVA wrote: I'm thinking the #1 target to replicate PvT would be an SCV.
The problem is.... just how do you get the SCV out of the terran main/natural base alive?
#1 - Warp Prisim? #2 - Nexus recall? #3 - Get lucky and catch a scouting SCV?
I think it would be great to get an SCV early in the match if you could.
SCV->make a CC -> make an Ebay -> Plantaries & Sensor Towers & Mechanical repair would be fantastic.
But, IMO the actual mechanics of rushing to go snag one *early* SCV with a warp prism seem to be very hard. Or very expensive with a nexus recall (its 3 chronobosts... right?)
I don't think there would be a real way to get a SCV until the Terran tries to take a 3rd, unless you get really lucky.
Use oracle to make scv's flee, then replicate them :D
On October 25 2011 05:14 bovineblitz wrote: What happens if a zerg NPs a replicator and replicates something?
I don't see why it would be anything other than the obvious. The Zerg controlled-Replicator would turn into whatever you pick, and then would revert to Protoss control in a few seconds, still in the shape of whatever the Zerg turned it into.
My mind just exploded. What if you NP a replicator, and replicate an Infestor and then NP a replicator, and then replicate an Infestor and then NP a replicator, and then replicate an Infestor.....
lol some suggestions in this thread are so silly, like replicating a worker unit to get a CC / hive, that is just way too costly. You'd have to pay 200/200 for a worker and then still the 400 for the building to get what? Another tech tree you have to completely pay for still?? Not worth it at all...
THe only units worth replicating will have similar costs as the replicant and/or be crazy good against the person just having made the unit. For example: - replicating a raven so you can HSM their marines - replicating a ghost to try and EMP or snipe their ghosts, especially useful as it will have snipe. - replicating a dark templar to harass a DT player back. - replicating a infestor to fungal lings/roaches.
The only case replicating your own unit will be good is to get some quick void rays or maybe oracles I think. Robo + stargate could be used to get some critical amount of stargate units super quick and then already having the robo to tech up to colo if needed. I guess you could do quite a quick 3 voidray rush this style especially as the replicators can be moved out before the void is even complete. This would be even more interesting if you could replicate hallucinations but I don't think they'll allow that as hallucinate + robo would mean instant access to voidray/oracle or even a HT with storm.
On October 25 2011 05:14 bovineblitz wrote: What happens if a zerg NPs a replicator and replicates something?
I don't see why it would be anything other than the obvious. The Zerg controlled-Replicator would turn into whatever you pick, and then would revert to Protoss control in a few seconds, still in the shape of whatever the Zerg turned it into.
My mind just exploded. What if you NP a replicator, and replicate an Infestor and then NP a replicator, and then replicate an Infestor and then NP a replicator, and then replicate an Infestor.....
This wouldn't be any different from chaining NP on Infestors of two different Zerg players.
Well it is important to know that it currently takes up 4 pop per replicator. It definitely would be awesome to replicate a scv and build orbital commands at expos instead of nexus for mules. Also excess chrono boost could be used on orbitals to get mules faster. Protoss could get an insane economy with a very little investment (and if they need the pop late game then can just suicide the replicator since they will make scv's from the orbital anyways). Also scv's could be used to repair toss units if necessary.
For offensive units I think making a few siege tanks could be good for map control and contains. Also ravens would seem like a good investment. They get PDD's, Hunter-Seeker (could possibly devastating if Terran is caught off-guard), and turrets. Also detection for ghosts and banshees which seem to be popular units in TvP currently.
For zerg units I would think the viper would be a good unit to replicate. You can use dark cloud on enemy mutas, corrupters, hydras, and roaches to render them less effective. The spell is worth the 4 pop and 200/200 in my opinion. Also a few infestors for fungal growth would likely help out in late-game battles as well. I think toss could turtle very hard, replicate a few infestors and vipers and their 200/200 deathball will nearly be invincible.
Against protoss I think replicators would only be useful for some sort of cheese strat or perhaps to get tech that you don't currently have. If you don't have stargate you could replicate tempests possibly late game if there is ever need for them in the matchup. Also could possibly sneak DT's using replicators.
On October 25 2011 05:14 bovineblitz wrote: What happens if a zerg NPs a replicator and replicates something?
I don't see why it would be anything other than the obvious. The Zerg controlled-Replicator would turn into whatever you pick, and then would revert to Protoss control in a few seconds, still in the shape of whatever the Zerg turned it into.
My mind just exploded. What if you NP a replicator, and replicate an Infestor and then NP a replicator, and then replicate an Infestor and then NP a replicator, and then replicate an Infestor.....
Then the Protoss would be left with a bunch of infestors, which is what I would use the replicants for anyways :p
Just think about this for a minute. There's no way you would ever be able to open cloaked banshee against Protoss ever again. The moment your banshee pops out, before it ever even has cloak, the protoss player replicates your banshee with upgrades and cloak and begins going to town on your base.
It'll also shut down the 1/1/1 as you can continue to replicate siege tanks while the Terran tries to slow contain you.
On October 25 2011 05:48 Markwerf wrote: lol some suggestions in this thread are so silly, like replicating a worker unit to get a CC / hive, that is just way too costly. You'd have to pay 200/200 for a worker and then still the 400 for the building to get what? Another tech tree you have to completely pay for still?? Not worth it at all...
THe only units worth replicating will have similar costs as the replicant and/or be crazy good against the person just having made the unit. For example: - replicating a raven so you can HSM their marines - replicating a ghost to try and EMP or snipe their ghosts, especially useful as it will have snipe. - replicating a dark templar to harass a DT player back. - replicating a infestor to fungal lings/roaches.
The only case replicating your own unit will be good is to get some quick void rays or maybe oracles I think. Robo + stargate could be used to get some critical amount of stargate units super quick and then already having the robo to tech up to colo if needed. I guess you could do quite a quick 3 voidray rush this style especially as the replicators can be moved out before the void is even complete. This would be even more interesting if you could replicate hallucinations but I don't think they'll allow that as hallucinate + robo would mean instant access to voidray/oracle or even a HT with storm.
You could also replicate a banshee in a 1/1/1 cloak it and snipe the marines with micro since the marines wont have stim.
Supposedly the build time is extremely short, so you could take advantage of the fact that it gains upgrades without them having to research, and replicate a high templar (before researching storm) to storm your opponent's army before ghosts are typically out or something.
I wonder if upgrades like observer/warp prism speed count as automatically upgraded though, or just abilities.
Also, imagine replicating a couple of banelings. Would they have burrow move researched already? Then again, with the viper's ocular parasite, that probably won't be too viable.
On October 25 2011 05:48 Markwerf wrote: lol some suggestions in this thread are so silly, like replicating a worker unit to get a CC / hive, that is just way too costly. You'd have to pay 200/200 for a worker and then still the 400 for the building to get what? Another tech tree you have to completely pay for still?? Not worth it at all...
THe only units worth replicating will have similar costs as the replicant and/or be crazy good against the person just having made the unit. For example: - replicating a raven so you can HSM their marines - replicating a ghost to try and EMP or snipe their ghosts, especially useful as it will have snipe. - replicating a dark templar to harass a DT player back. - replicating a infestor to fungal lings/roaches.
The only case replicating your own unit will be good is to get some quick void rays or maybe oracles I think. Robo + stargate could be used to get some critical amount of stargate units super quick and then already having the robo to tech up to colo if needed. I guess you could do quite a quick 3 voidray rush this style especially as the replicators can be moved out before the void is even complete. This would be even more interesting if you could replicate hallucinations but I don't think they'll allow that as hallucinate + robo would mean instant access to voidray/oracle or even a HT with storm.
So you'd rather invest 200/200/4 into a replicator to get a ghost to be able to snipe other ghosts with 3 snipes (3 clicks) when you could just get a 50/150/2 high templar instead and accomplish the same with just 1 feedback (1 click) ?
Hmm. It's a cool unit, and I'm sure many interesting and mind boggling situations will arise from its use. Yet at the same time I feel like some previous posters: We (or I would presume many of the visitors here, at least) play this game because of the diversity it offers. The least liked match up, to 99%, is the mirror match up. Replication seems to me as a bit.. mirror-ish. It doesnt feel right if, for example, siege tanks wouldd be an integral part of a protoss strat...
And is it really so that the replicated unit will have even the not researched abilites - huh??? Can anyone confirm that? Sounds waaay out in space. Also I think replicating bionic/organic units feels... difficult, lore/science wise.
Edit: On-topic, on-topic! A super obvious and potent target would be the infestor, obviously, and siege tanks. A well timed hellion replication could also be devastating to the opponents mineral lines. I wonder if replicated terran units will trigger the Shredders or not? It would be super cool if they did not.
Also, the replicant will of course open up a whole new window of manner opportunities. 6 manner marines dancing in your base? Ouch.
On October 25 2011 06:05 TedJustice wrote: Also, imagine replicating a couple of banelings. Would they have burrow move researched already? Then again, with the viper's ocular parasite, that probably won't be too viable.
I wouldn't want a 200/200 4supply baneling anyways
On October 25 2011 00:39 BronzeKnee wrote: Siege Tanks.
Terran opens with 1-1-1. You chrono out a few Replicants and build 3/4 Gates and all-in. Replicate the first siege tank that comes out, and you'll have 2 or 3 siege tanks with siege mode vs 1 siege tank without siege mode. GG.
This all-in will replace the VR all-in vs Terran. Basically Terran is going to have to open with Bio every game.
....doesnt the replicant require a robo bay? ....ya dropping 200 gas for the bay then 600 more gas for 3 replicatants before he hits you with 1-2 tank marine all in? ya....I dont think so
On October 25 2011 05:48 Markwerf wrote: lol some suggestions in this thread are so silly, like replicating a worker unit to get a CC / hive, that is just way too costly. You'd have to pay 200/200 for a worker and then still the 400 for the building to get what? Another tech tree you have to completely pay for still?? Not worth it at all...
THe only units worth replicating will have similar costs as the replicant and/or be crazy good against the person just having made the unit. For example: - replicating a raven so you can HSM their marines - replicating a ghost to try and EMP or snipe their ghosts, especially useful as it will have snipe. - replicating a dark templar to harass a DT player back. - replicating a infestor to fungal lings/roaches.
The only case replicating your own unit will be good is to get some quick void rays or maybe oracles I think. Robo + stargate could be used to get some critical amount of stargate units super quick and then already having the robo to tech up to colo if needed. I guess you could do quite a quick 3 voidray rush this style especially as the replicators can be moved out before the void is even complete. This would be even more interesting if you could replicate hallucinations but I don't think they'll allow that as hallucinate + robo would mean instant access to voidray/oracle or even a HT with storm.
So you'd rather invest 200/200/4 into a replicator to get a ghost to be able to snipe other ghosts with 3 snipes (3 clicks) when you could just get a 50/150/2 high templar instead and accomplish the same with just 1 feedback (1 click) ?
Thank you for your logic in this sea of madness...
everyone's like OMG free snipes and free seeker missiles!!!
those abilities suck, would rather have high templars than retard missiles or a ghost's squirt gun... i mean, 25 energy for 45 damage? that is sooo inefficient QQ Yamato cannon is 33% more efficient and even it sux... snipe should at least do 50 if not 55 damage (yamato would be 60 damage per 25 energy) an important consideration now that Terran no longer has 250mm strike cannons with which to kill immortals / ultras...
my preference would be to make it an "armor piercing round" and be something like 45 +20 vs armored, then it would 2 shot marauders which would open ghost use in TvT, as well as make it a suitable replacement for thor cannons...
On October 25 2011 06:05 TedJustice wrote: Also, imagine replicating a couple of banelings. Would they have burrow move researched already? Then again, with the viper's ocular parasite, that probably won't be too viable.
I wouldn't want a 200/200 4supply baneling anyways
I just figured if it had burrow move, the damage you could potentially deal would be worth it.
But you're right, it would be a huge investment for a big risk.
On October 25 2011 06:13 JerKy wrote: I think itll have most use in PvP, you go for blink + replicant, opponent goes standard colosus build, you can snag a couple colosi to help your army
On October 25 2011 05:59 Vehemus wrote: Just think about this for a minute. There's no way you would ever be able to open cloaked banshee against Protoss ever again. The moment your banshee pops out, before it ever even has cloak, the protoss player replicates your banshee with upgrades and cloak and begins going to town on your base.
It'll also shut down the 1/1/1 as you can continue to replicate siege tanks while the Terran tries to slow contain you.
Why does the Protoss have vision of your Starport?
What would actually happen is that a Protoss would see your Banshee harassing him and then potentially be able to replicate one of his own and send it to the Terran base. I don't see how this is any more threatening than a Terran opponent doing the same thing. It would require less of an investment (200/200 for one replicator instead of 350/300 for one cloaked banshee), but it would arrive later (he has to wait until you arrive at his base before creating the banshee), and it would be much easier to anticipate, since you know when you yourself will be making banshees!
It will definitely shut down the 1/1/1 though, or at least force the Terran player to micro his marines.
On October 25 2011 06:14 Herfelt wrote: Will you be able to replicate opponents workers and get terran/zerg units by simply producing them (like zerg can with neural atm)?
With the replicator, it is cost effective to copy up to two siege tanks, then I think the cost will start to not be worth while, but that will shut down 1 1 1 completely, just protect your two tanks with immortals/zealots/stalkers until you get colossus then marines just aren't the power house they used to be. And or copy a banshee and return some pressure. BUT keep in mind with the banshee that 7 kills is needed for it to be cost effective. If they make a Raven STEAL IT and then take it home and stroke it lovingly, it's the colossus'/tempests best friend.
In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if DTs become standard in PvT to force raven. Once/if terran gets raven they have a small window to hit the protoss before they steal the design and run amok with colossus.
I love this unit. It's rare that it will outright beat an opponent, but it give's protoss so much utility and synergy with their units. How could you find a ghost/templar v.s. ghost micro battle not interesting? I really really hope this unit makes it through, the skill cap for protoss gets so much higher with it.
On October 25 2011 06:26 zmansman17 wrote: Wow Imagine a Toss replicating an SCV and making infinite Orbital Commands in late game. There may need to be a patch haha
Actually i welcome this as a terran. Every Toss will have the opportunity to get OCs for himself so he can see that MULEs are nice but actually not as good as they thought.
On October 25 2011 06:26 zmansman17 wrote: Wow Imagine a Toss replicating an SCV and making infinite Orbital Commands in late game. There may need to be a patch haha
yeah it would be pretty broken if a race could build orbital commands.
On October 25 2011 00:45 DoomsVille wrote: Honestly, I don't see the point of replicating your own units. The only one I can see that is worthwhile is the immortal (assuming the replicator build time is significantly less than the immortal build time).
Maybe replicating voids against zerg in the late game (after they transition to broods) to get a quick transition to air?
I feel like this unit is going to be scrapped at some point.
You can replicate the other persons units not yours
As someone that went to blizzcon I can safely say you can definitely replicate your own units.
On October 25 2011 06:26 zmansman17 wrote: Wow Imagine a Toss replicating an SCV and making infinite Orbital Commands in late game. There may need to be a patch haha
in late game PFs would be more interesting actually. no more nexus snipes by 4 marauders!
i think the best use for this would be if you open robo and scout what looks like some kind of timing attack, like a 1-1-1, you can make replicators to copy they banshees or tanks and hold the push that way, especially since you get cloak with the copied ones.
Personally, I think (maybe) scv or drone, ghost (auto-gets cloak, can emp medivacs/snipe marines and marauders), tank, banshee, and infestor. Perhaps viper as well, or raven.
On October 25 2011 06:05 TedJustice wrote: Also, imagine replicating a couple of banelings. Would they have burrow move researched already? Then again, with the viper's ocular parasite, that probably won't be too viable.
I wouldn't want a 200/200 4supply baneling anyways
I just figured if it had burrow move, the damage you could potentially deal would be worth it.
But you're right, it would be a huge investment for a big risk.
Yeah hmm.. one fungal is better than one baneling, plus you get to keep the infestor.
The replicant is likely to be removed before release imo. It's really not starcrafty, is a nightmare to balance, and most protoss seem to take it as an insult to their race.
They are the most technologically advanced race known to man, yet they have to copy the other races. What?
On October 25 2011 06:32 rbx270j wrote: Can a toss replicate his own stuff? If so, Colossus are cheaper now. Also, can he replicate hallucinations? If so, what happens?
Cannot copy massive units.
I doubt you can copy hallucinations, it would give access to any (non-massive) unit without even building the production facility.
I don't think it will come out of the beta with unlimited range because you could just get an observer where the opponent army is and just replicate some tanks or infestors and then attack. it should have a large range so it can outrange seige tanks but not unlimited
On October 25 2011 06:32 rbx270j wrote: Can a toss replicate his own stuff? If so, Colossus are cheaper now. Also, can he replicate hallucinations? If so, what happens?
Cannot copy massive units.
I doubt you can copy hallucinations, it would give access to any (non-massive) unit without even building the production facility.
yeah, i forgot about the no-massive thing.
but what about enemy hallucinations? a Scouting Phoenix, Void, Immortal or what have you.
Replicate SCV, build an Orbital. That will clear the costs of the Replicator all by itself. Best used as a transition out of 2 or 3 base play. Marine/Sentry/Immortal play could be very strong too. Marines to kill things, Sentries to defend against enemy Marines and keep Hellions locked down, Immortals to destroy Tanks. Terran upgrades would come quite quickly if Chrono'd, I would imagine, letting you catch up to an opponent who got a head start on Terran tech.
Pretty much, use the badassery of Chrono Boost to break tech designed to work without it.
To be honest, I think Blizzard will get cold feet about 1,5 month before their internally set launch date and decide to scrap the replicator. Being an interesting unit, I do not think Blizzard will think they'll be able to balance it. Instead they'll postpone the launch (out in the public, we won't know it's being postponed, except from the fact that the Replicator is being scrapped from the beta) and come up with a more generic unit to fill the gap.
On October 25 2011 01:48 V2. wrote: As the replicator is a flying unit, I'm thinking maybe, using it in conjunction with mass recall, to get immortal harass without using a warp prism, so instead of spending 200/0 on a warp prism, you spend 200/200 on the replicator and get an immortal and harassment done, and on the way there if you see your opponent is going banshees, you can replicate a banshee instead and recall them home safely.
And if your opponent is going marines, zerglings or mutas, you can always keep the replicator or bring home a worker. Instead of thinking of this unit to stop one strategy, to take over one unit, I think the cost was meant to discourage that, and was meant to be used as a sneaky little fucker.
late game, mass recalling around a few siegetanks in siege mode around to defend bases would be kick arse, if you could get a viper it would be well worth the cost of the replicator to make all of his roaches/hydras useless, and be able to detect them running slowly burrowing away.
And we haven't even begun to think about the BM this unit would enable... Protoss will have the ultimate BM of replicating marines and making them dance!
I think the best use of this would be against banshee harass. Just build one or two replicants and you get the harass capability of an entire tech tree without any of the work.
On October 25 2011 01:48 V2. wrote: As the replicator is a flying unit, I'm thinking maybe, using it in conjunction with mass recall, to get immortal harass without using a warp prism, so instead of spending 200/0 on a warp prism, you spend 200/200 on the replicator and get an immortal and harassment done, and on the way there if you see your opponent is going banshees, you can replicate a banshee instead and recall them home safely.
And if your opponent is going marines, zerglings or mutas, you can always keep the replicator or bring home a worker. Instead of thinking of this unit to stop one strategy, to take over one unit, I think the cost was meant to discourage that, and was meant to be used as a sneaky little fucker.
late game, mass recalling around a few siegetanks in siege mode around to defend bases would be kick arse, if you could get a viper it would be well worth the cost of the replicator to make all of his roaches/hydras useless, and be able to detect them running slowly burrowing away.
And we haven't even begun to think about the BM this unit would enable... Protoss will have the ultimate BM of replicating marines and making them dance!
The replicator isn't a flying unit
source: Played HOTS twice at blizzcon.
Weird I know.
Probably to avoid the situation of replicating a ground unit over non-ground.
On October 25 2011 07:02 DMKraft wrote: Beware using Ghosts or Banshees against toss without detection
I don't get the ghosts one Ghosts are good against Zerg and Protoss... but not terran. 200/200 is an awful lot to get a shot at some EMPs against ghosts.. What if I spread them?
Ahh without detection... for some reason I skipped over that I still don't see it as a major threat. Ghosts don't do nearly as much damage as any other cloaked unit...
On October 25 2011 07:06 Mylkyjo wrote: Replicate the new thor. If it's possible you could have multiple copies of a unit of which the Terran is only allowed one.
On October 25 2011 07:06 Mylkyjo wrote: Replicate the new thor. If it's possible you could have multiple copies of a unit of which the Terran is only allowed one.
On October 25 2011 01:53 Iranon wrote: I would think using these with speed-upgraded warp prisms would be pretty nifty in PvT. Fly an observer over his production facilities and wait for something cool to pop out. Tanks, banshees, whatever. Have a warp prism (maybe with speed) nearby with a replicator in it. Fly in, unload, change the replicator to whatever that unit was, load back up and fly home. Now you can make as many of those as you want in the safety of your main with more replicators...
Edit: didn't realize you could do this from your base anyway, I thought you needed line of sight.
Replicant has unlimited range, you can replicate from the safety of your base + observer
On October 25 2011 07:06 ilikeredheads wrote: EMP the medivacs
I do like this idea a little But what about the synergy between things like... Siege tanks, zealots and sentries vs a bio ball? I would much rather have siege tanks or medivacs if I were protoss.
I wonder. Can you replicate your replicated units? Like, if you managed to snag a ghost, could you just mass replicants and have them all copy that ghost-copy you just got?
so... units get full upgrades? zerg units get burrow tech? if so, then i'd actually copy a tunneling(!) baneling in pvz while positioned near a juicy mineral line (47dmg)
On October 25 2011 01:53 Iranon wrote: I would think using these with speed-upgraded warp prisms would be pretty nifty in PvT. Fly an observer over his production facilities and wait for something cool to pop out. Tanks, banshees, whatever. Have a warp prism (maybe with speed) nearby with a replicator in it. Fly in, unload, change the replicator to whatever that unit was, load back up and fly home. Now you can make as many of those as you want in the safety of your main with more replicators...
Edit: didn't realize you could do this from your base anyway, I thought you needed line of sight.
Replicant has unlimited range, you can replicate from the safety of your base + observer
That actually sounds a bit ridiculous lol Replicate an scv,drone from your own base -> Turtle Hard with colossus -> Have better late game army than opponent, always without the opponent being able to deny
Does anyone remember on sotg about how day 9 was talking about every race getting marines? That is what this feels like lol... I really think I hate the whole concept of this unit.. T_T
On October 25 2011 07:11 Krejven wrote: If the unit is available with all upgrades and extra things does this mean if you copy a ghost it will have a nuke ready? :D
No because it's not an upgrade, nuke is more like a unit that takes no supply. You would need to build a ghost academy and a factory to have the nuke.
On October 25 2011 07:12 takunx9 wrote: So blizz is putting in a unit that Only does the Dark Archon's Mind Control via sac'n itself?
I hate comparisons like this lol. There are so many other points to consider that you just disregard by comparing it like that. What about the fact that if you replicate a siege tank it's not... in the middle of the other guy's army when you do it? What about the different tech trees? What about the fact that if you get a siege tank you start with siege mode or if you get a banshee you start with cloak? What about the fact that if he only has 1 banshee, you can have 3? What about the fact that this proposed replicant has unlimited range according to some guy a couple posts above me...?
On October 25 2011 02:01 VirgilSC2 wrote: The only unit that is cost efficient to replicate is the Immortal
Anything else you are paying vastly more for.
Doesn't efficiency depend entirely on synergies? Having access to mules and scvs for repair will probably be worth the 200/200.
Also, you ignore the build time of the replicator, which is pretty short.
200/200 every 30 Seconds is not feasible.
You can't repair Protoss buildings/units as far as I'm aware. Any synergy that is worth 50-100 extra gas or minerals + 1-2 extra supply is something everyone will complain about and will be nerfed.
you can repair protoss units, I don't think you can repair buildings though. I had a friend who thor rushed in a 2v2 and I went 1 base voids and his scvs repaired my voids.
The more I read and think about the unit the more stupid of an Idea it seems to be...
The only way I could imagine this working in a way that wouldnt totally fuck up the whole game is the following:
- Replicating has range... like 13-15 sth that requieres to replicant to be around the army. - The Replicated unit will be on your side for a maximum of 30 rl-seconds. - Upgrades and everything is just like those of the enemy. - After the replication is gone the replicant need to recharge for around 10 seconds.
Maybe u can make it cheaper this way
The effect would be a unit that is not able to just build another race, because there has to be an SCV around all the time and it would take quiet some time to get a CC up and the enmy could do sth about it. (Zergbuildings have to stop hatching mb...) The replicant is more of a mirroring unit in the battle on which u cant base a strategy, because u have to make ure decisions quickly "near battle". This would actually requiere quiet some skill!
Also it would have this "OMG" factor. When the player could suddenly change the battle with some sick unit/spell combinations, but it can also be a total fail, when the replicants are picked of before they can replicate themselves into sth usefull.
This way the replicant could be a total win for the imo.
On October 25 2011 07:12 takunx9 wrote: So blizz is putting in a unit that Only does the Dark Archon's Mind Control via sac'n itself?
I hate comparisons like this lol. There are so many other points to consider that you just disregard by comparing it like that. What about the fact that if you replicate a siege tank it's not... in the middle of the other guy's army when you do it? What about the different tech trees? What about the fact that if you get a siege tank you start with siege mode or if you get a banshee you start with cloak? What about the fact that if he only has 1 banshee, you can have 3? What about the fact that this proposed replicant has unlimited range according to some guy a couple posts above me...?
Also, basically everything was OP in BW compared to SC2.
You guys don't realise the best thing about this. Replicate SCV, build flying building, transform flying building into cannon, laugh at puny mortals from your death star.
On October 24 2011 23:58 VTPerfect wrote: To be perfectly honest I think the best use of this unit is in conjunction with some sort of 2 base warp prism harass. the harass hopefully does some damage but the important part is gaining vision of your terran opponents SCV, using the Replicator to morph into an SCV and then gain access to quasi fixes to the real problems with Protoss IE producing ghosts to emp their ghosts, medivacs cuz your units can't heal, vikings cause you don't have an Air to Air armor bonus unit etc etc etc.
I still think this is awful cause at this point your not playing Protoss your plating Proran and Prozerg and i didnt pick Protoss to use Ran and Zerg units but its pretty much ur best bet.
I believe the only biological protoss unit is the zealot, maybe the high/dark templars
In some matchups it might be useful to be able to change your army comp from Void Rays to Immortals in a flash. Say you have a moderate amount of both. This could let you transform from a lot of Voidrays to a lot of Immortals.
A replicant Banshee might also be able to do a ton of damage. Replicant Warhounds might be useful as counter to Ghost + Mech as Warhounds would be immune to EMP and would slaughter Battle Hellions.
I skimmed through the thread, but does anyone have any idea if you get a new pop limit (like how it works now?) if you replicate an SCV or drone and start their tech tree? You have potentially a very late game 400 supply army in a 1v1! Or in a multiplayer game, 600 supply!?
I'm pretty sure if you NP a probe or SCV (chained NP) you get a new supply counter for the new race?
On October 25 2011 07:34 LashLash wrote: I skimmed through the thread, but does anyone have any idea if you get a new pop limit (like how it works now?) if you replicate an SCV or drone and start their tech tree? You have potentially a very late game 400 supply army in a 1v1! Or in a multiplayer game, 600 supply!?
I'm pretty sure if you NP a probe or SCV (chained NP) you get a new supply counter for the new race?
One thing to keep in mind is that in PvT, you'd probably want your 3rd base (and so forth) to be an Orbital Command, especially considering a Probe can still return minerals to a Command Center, so it's not like you need to exclusively produce SCV's at your 3rd before you can saturate it.
Additionally, one can only begin to consider the implications of Reactor Marine production with Chrono Boost or mass SCV's with auto repair to heal your Stalkers and stuff. People need to think a lot more out of the box than they already are.
I still don't understand why they're implementing this. The unit has direct paralells to the Infestor's Neural Parasite, and by adding this unit to the protoss arsenal, they're just replicating the difficulty in balance that we already see Neural Parasite have. Obviously, there are some core differences, but on the whole the mechanics are the same, meaning the balance of the replicant will be just as hard as balancing Neural Parasite has been.
That said, there are a whole lot of interesting/cool/confusing interactions that the replicant would allow, which raise all kinds of new questions, such as:
If the unit it takes over gains all tech upgrades for the unit controlled, will the timings work out that protoss could rush drops by getting a relatively quick replicant and using it to control an overlord? Would protoss units be allowed to load into this "protoss" unit? Same with medevacs, will we see medevac + zealot drops in the future?
Could protoss, in ZvP, clone a queen and spread vision-giving creep on the zerg's already spread creep? I guess the redundancy with observers would quickly come into play, but still...
How much space do they take up in a dropship? Could "one siege tank" and three zealots fit into a warp prism?
Will this thing make it strangely unsafe to get colossus before range in PvP, in case your opponent has replicants and repl...nevermind, Colossus are massive. My bad :D
In short, cool unit as far as interestingness goes, but glhf balancing it, blizzard. Learn from the (arguably) mistakes you've already made, broz.
I've thought about this a bit over the past few days.
pvp. doesn't matter if they go either blink stalkers/ colossi/ cargelot archon but if they go immo you have a way to respond to it if its a surprise. not worth the investment personaly in this matchup. pvt OH GOD YES! Seige tanks bansee's I WANT ghosts would be worth that 200/200 over and over again to emp their ghosts and to stack snipes which I want. Seige tanks with FF's? ? Bansee's (with cloak for free I'm pretty sure its actualy cost effective on the first one and have so much usefulness in a fight) Pvz OH HELL YEAH! Fungel growth + Storm means a hell of a lot of dammage in the battle not mention colossi sweeps. Fungel storm onto coruptors? and all these wonderful things for 200/200? not too excited about having a viper or swarm lord but still no more infestors in the match up woot woot.
Can we replicate our own units or only the units of our opponent?
1) SCV -> OC in late game. I don't care what you say about "not being worth it". Drop 2 mules and it is worth it. Also potentially frees up supply in late game. 2) DT, if opponent Dt rushes you and you go robo 3) Raven, Dropping PDD against Mard is HUGE, or HSM against marine balls 4) Banshee would have cloak and provide nice harass. 5) Infestor 6) Ghost
The list goes on. Anyone who fails to see the potential of this unit has not quite wrapped his/her mind around it.
On October 25 2011 05:48 Markwerf wrote: lol some suggestions in this thread are so silly, like replicating a worker unit to get a CC / hive, that is just way too costly. You'd have to pay 200/200 for a worker and then still the 400 for the building to get what? Another tech tree you have to completely pay for still?? Not worth it at all...
THe only units worth replicating will have similar costs as the replicant and/or be crazy good against the person just having made the unit. For example: - replicating a raven so you can HSM their marines - replicating a ghost to try and EMP or snipe their ghosts, especially useful as it will have snipe. - replicating a dark templar to harass a DT player back. - replicating a infestor to fungal lings/roaches.
The only case replicating your own unit will be good is to get some quick void rays or maybe oracles I think. Robo + stargate could be used to get some critical amount of stargate units super quick and then already having the robo to tech up to colo if needed. I guess you could do quite a quick 3 voidray rush this style especially as the replicators can be moved out before the void is even complete. This would be even more interesting if you could replicate hallucinations but I don't think they'll allow that as hallucinate + robo would mean instant access to voidray/oracle or even a HT with storm.
So you'd rather invest 200/200/4 into a replicator to get a ghost to be able to snipe other ghosts with 3 snipes (3 clicks) when you could just get a 50/150/2 high templar instead and accomplish the same with just 1 feedback (1 click) ?
Thank you for your logic in this sea of madness...
everyone's like OMG free snipes and free seeker missiles!!!
those abilities suck, would rather have high templars than retard missiles or a ghost's squirt gun... i mean, 25 energy for 45 damage? that is sooo inefficient QQ Yamato cannon is 33% more efficient and even it sux... snipe should at least do 50 if not 55 damage (yamato would be 60 damage per 25 energy) an important consideration now that Terran no longer has 250mm strike cannons with which to kill immortals / ultras...
my preference would be to make it an "armor piercing round" and be something like 45 +20 vs armored, then it would 2 shot marauders which would open ghost use in TvT, as well as make it a suitable replacement for thor cannons...
On October 25 2011 07:30 RockIronrod wrote: You guys don't realise the best thing about this. Replicate SCV, build flying building, transform flying building into cannon, laugh at puny mortals from your death star.
LOL. I can see the next big thing. Flying mass barracks over the opponents mineral line.
By then you should have a natural and can save up enough energy for 4 cannon abilities. That is, if the ability isn't limited to protoss structures.
Hum...in my opinion this unit won't make the final cut, apart from volatile, it will have probably few uses or very abussive ones, not middle on the road thing. I want them to make protoss a better race with protoss units.
It would be awesome if replicated overlords added to supply. Then you could have a unit with drop-tech and speed upgrade that costs -4 supply. 200/200 doesn't seem too bad for that. Cheaper than getting a warp prism with speed.
On October 25 2011 07:34 LashLash wrote: I skimmed through the thread, but does anyone have any idea if you get a new pop limit (like how it works now?) if you replicate an SCV or drone and start their tech tree? You have potentially a very late game 400 supply army in a 1v1! Or in a multiplayer game, 600 supply!?
I'm pretty sure if you NP a probe or SCV (chained NP) you get a new supply counter for the new race?
You don't.
Yup it doesn't work anymore. It used to work many patches ago though, that's how I tested units :p
On October 25 2011 07:37 Dox wrote: One thing to keep in mind is that in PvT, you'd probably want your 3rd base (and so forth) to be an Orbital Command, especially considering a Probe can still return minerals to a Command Center, so it's not like you need to exclusively produce SCV's at your 3rd before you can saturate it.
Additionally, one can only begin to consider the implications of Reactor Marine production with Chrono Boost or mass SCV's with auto repair to heal your Stalkers and stuff. People need to think a lot more out of the box than they already are.
Actually everything you suggested has already been previously mentioned in this thread several times; you just didn't bother to read it.
On October 25 2011 07:30 RockIronrod wrote: You guys don't realise the best thing about this. Replicate SCV, build flying building, transform flying building into cannon, laugh at puny mortals from your death star.
LOL. I can see the next big thing. Flying mass barracks over the opponents mineral line.
By then you should have a natural and can save up enough energy for 4 cannon abilities. That is, if the ability isn't limited to protoss structures.
It's not, I cast an arc shield on a hatch just to try it out. I don't know if you can cast it on a floating building, but that would make for an interesting tactic. Arc shield is 5 damage, 20 damage against light.
Clearly the best use is to fill a prism with ultras, drop them in their main, warp in a bunch more, and instantly have 15 ultras or siege tanks in the main.
On October 25 2011 07:30 RockIronrod wrote: You guys don't realise the best thing about this. Replicate SCV, build flying building, transform flying building into cannon, laugh at puny mortals from your death star.
Ooh! Proxy PF with protoss deathrays, that would be awesome!
On October 25 2011 07:57 WigginOut wrote: It would be awesome if replicated overlords added to supply. Then you could have a unit with drop-tech and speed upgrade that costs -4 supply. 200/200 doesn't seem too bad for that. Cheaper than getting a warp prism with speed.
Well, warp prism is already faster than an upgraded overlord. It doesn't seem that worth it.
On October 25 2011 06:14 Megatronn wrote: 200/200 replicator army turned into marines. Might as well take the best unit ^^
You want a 200/200 4 supply marine? I guess targets could be spell casters, harass units and some air units. What happens when you replicate a replicator? Lol
On October 25 2011 08:01 Eschaton wrote: Clearly the best use is to fill a prism with ultras, drop them in their main, warp in a bunch more, and instantly have 15 ultras or siege tanks in the main.
You dont warp it in, its built from a robo. 15 x 200/200 is 3000/3000 ... Not the best idea ever.
I see it really useful against 1/1/1 or maybe to have the fungal/storm combo in zvp but other then that idk.
On October 25 2011 07:47 sermokala wrote: I've thought about this a bit over the past few days.
pvp. doesn't matter if they go either blink stalkers/ colossi/ cargelot archon but if they go immo you have a way to respond to it if its a surprise. not worth the investment personaly in this matchup. pvt OH GOD YES! Seige tanks bansee's I WANT ghosts would be worth that 200/200 over and over again to emp their ghosts and to stack snipes which I want. Seige tanks with FF's? ? Bansee's (with cloak for free I'm pretty sure its actualy cost effective on the first one and have so much usefulness in a fight) Pvz OH HELL YEAH! Fungel growth + Storm means a hell of a lot of dammage in the battle not mention colossi sweeps. Fungel storm onto coruptors? and all these wonderful things for 200/200? not too excited about having a viper or swarm lord but still no more infestors in the match up woot woot.
Can we replicate our own units or only the units of our opponent?
Maybe T and Z will stop teching then. Bio army beats your army cause you built stargate and expensive replicators.
I think the only targets that would be really worth it would be:
PvZ: Infestor.
PvT: Siege tank... MAYBE ghost but that's not my cup of tea. ...And yeah I guess banshee. But this unit is gonna severely decrease the amount of banshee play in TvP... and that's not a good thing. I mean your protoss banshee is immediately better than theirs because yours has cloak. And you went robo so they arn't gonna go cloak.
Late game PvP or PvZ: amass a bunch of replicators while doing the usual War of the Worlds or wait for the zerg to build too many corrupters in anticipation of BL/Corrupter (might not be the case anymore due to the viper) and then tech switch to void ray.
But yeah... I'm still pretty bummed about this unit.
How about the replicator be a timed transformation? (Kind of like a Hallucination or Changeling) It changes into whatever unit, for lets say 110 in-game seconds (random number, can obv be changed...). After this it either reverts back to its original form or dies (like the change-ling).
If it dies, make it a little cheaper.. If not, it could allow for some really interesting uses, steal a medivac for healing your army early game and take tanks for support against bio mid game. It could create some crazy ass timing windows and some really really fun gameplay.
Maybe have the transform time last just enough to finish a CC, best used when the P catches an SCV out in the open (Make it so that a protoss won't have enough time to send in a warp prisim and steal an SCV, bring it back and start a CC at a safe expansion, but the idea of making your own CC is still a little viable)
Or perhaps have different time lengths for different units.. Maybe a little more for an SCV but less time for an immortal, ghost or infestor.
On October 25 2011 08:01 Eschaton wrote: Clearly the best use is to fill a prism with ultras, drop them in their main, warp in a bunch more, and instantly have 15 ultras or siege tanks in the main.
You dont warp it in, its built from a robo. 15 x 200/200 is 3000/3000 ... Not the best idea ever.
I see it really useful against 1/1/1 or maybe to have the fungal/storm combo in zvp but other then that idk.
not to mention ultras are massive ....
And if you have a nuke everytime you replicate a ghost, idk ... it seems a bit op.
Does someone knows how much mana does the replicated unit get ? the current mana of the unit replicated or the mana the unit would have had after being built, or even full mana ?
On October 25 2011 08:26 [Ouroboros] wrote: And if you have a nuke everytime you replicate a ghost, idk ... it seems a bit op.
I seriously doubt you would get a nuke everytime your replicate a ghost. You need a Ghost Academy for a nuke to launch out of... All ghost's have the nuke ability when spawned. They just need the nuke to go along with it
You can replicate workers and recreate all tech. This was confirmed during multiplayer panel Q&A.
Likely targets are spellcasters as all other non-massives are not that powerful. Also, siege tanks and banshees would be good. Maybe even medivac to heal, or scv to build CC just to get scvs to repair mechanical units.
On October 25 2011 08:22 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: How about the replicator be a timed transformation? (Kind of like a Hallucination or Changeling) It changes into whatever unit, for lets say 110 in-game seconds (random number, can obv be changed...). After this it either reverts back to its original form or dies (like the change-ling).
If it dies, make it a little cheaper.. If not, it could allow for some really interesting uses, steal a medivac for healing your army early game and take tanks for support against bio mid game. It could create some crazy ass timing windows and some really really fun gameplay.
Maybe have the transform time last just enough to finish a CC, best used when the P catches an SCV out in the open (Make it so that a protoss won't have enough time to send in a warp prisim and steal an SCV, bring it back and start a CC at a safe expansion, but the idea of making your own CC is still a little viable)
Or perhaps have different time lengths for different units.. Maybe a little more for an SCV but less time for an immortal, ghost or infestor.
Thoughts?
I don't think you understand how this works... the replicant turns itself into the target...doesn't clone it or take it over... it mimics the target if you will... i don't expect anything like a timed life for a 200/200 investment though, and i also doubt they will implement a mechanic to "unreplicate" back into it's normal form...
oh $%^&! i just realized how cluttered the editor is going to be with 1 replicant copy of every single unit (i.e. changling anyone?)
^at the moment it has a food cost of 4, so it isn't cost efficient or supply efficient against anything it could copy. Obviously it's only benefit comes from its versatility to be anything, the downside of course is that if they don't make anything useful (ie you predict 1-1-1, spend 600/600 gas in replicants ready to make siege tanks them they rush you with bio, you are fucked lol). Would probably rather 2 colossus in that situation anyway.
Edit: replicating raven would probably be worthwhile, however how many Terrans bother with ravens TvP anyway? I'm sure having the replicant would just discourage it further.
On October 25 2011 08:44 Zariel wrote: I was just thinking of mass replicating Ravens and just HSM their bio-ball. I can imagine the amount of terrans i'll make them ragequit
On October 25 2011 08:22 sGs.Kal_rA wrote: How about the replicator be a timed transformation? (Kind of like a Hallucination or Changeling) It changes into whatever unit, for lets say 110 in-game seconds (random number, can obv be changed...). After this it either reverts back to its original form or dies (like the change-ling).
If it dies, make it a little cheaper.. If not, it could allow for some really interesting uses, steal a medivac for healing your army early game and take tanks for support against bio mid game. It could create some crazy ass timing windows and some really really fun gameplay.
Maybe have the transform time last just enough to finish a CC, best used when the P catches an SCV out in the open (Make it so that a protoss won't have enough time to send in a warp prisim and steal an SCV, bring it back and start a CC at a safe expansion, but the idea of making your own CC is still a little viable)
Or perhaps have different time lengths for different units.. Maybe a little more for an SCV but less time for an immortal, ghost or infestor.
Thoughts?
I don't think you understand how this works... the replicant turns itself into the target...doesn't clone it or take it over... it mimics the target if you will... i don't expect anything like a timed life for a 200/200 investment though, and i also doubt they will implement a mechanic to "unreplicate" back into it's normal form...
oh $%^&! i just realized how cluttered the editor is going to be with 1 replicant copy of every single unit (i.e. changling anyone?)
Well I'm just theorycrafting here, but make it cheaper if it's a timed life. If it's expensive, (perhaps make it more expensive and allow it to take massive) just make up some sci-fi bullshit reason that allows for it to turn back into a replicator after the time has elapsed. This will allow for a lot more versatility with a single replicator. Ie pvt, I spend 300/300 on a replicator. I copy a banshee, do some worker harass. After the time has elapsed it turns back into a replicator. Now I have this one unit that I spend 300/300 on that hasn't yet paid for itself fully. I now replicate a thor (assuming it doesn't get cut in the final release) and am able to use that for the next 150 seconds. I now steal a ghost and am able to use that..
My point is make it so that getting a replicator is hard (aka maybe make it expensive) but also make it have several uses (timed transformation) and also most of all make it very important to the game (like a special unit.) If it is timed and expensive, you will certainly have it hotkeyed by itself as it is an important unit that you cannot afford to lose.
This will force the protoss to micro it and use it wisely. If it's expensive, they cannot mass them easily and would definitely control each replicator carefully
I'm borrowing the mixed idea of a darch arcon from BW. When you have a DA you know you worked hard to get it.. Mind control in BW was a rare thing, but when done it was fucking EPIC. (Movie vs Pure on matchpoint anyone? Rock vs that other guy in that hour long PvP???) NP is too overused, but when seen it is still pretty cool.. This is because its too dam easy to get as your getting infestors anyways.. might as weel get NP. When you get a DA your getting it mainly TO mc (unless your Jangbi.. then your just a fucking baller ) I would really like the replicator to take this kind of role.. One where when used correctly, it could do a fuck ton of damage, but where to be used correctly, all the stars have to align.
Also, I dunno what your editor your talking about (map editor?)..
i'm going to be replicating either drones/scvs or vipers/swarm hosts.
idk if anyone has mentioned this but it is super easy to get a worker:
1. Send in Obs 2. Replicate worker in safety of base
I think a lot of people don't realize the replicator doesn't actually have to be there (if I understand this whole thing correctly and unlimited range is true)
I as well think the replicant will be good at shutting down all-ins. I saw in a video that all you need is sight of the unit you want to copy, which means that a Xel Naga Tower vision is super good if you got replicants. Any ghost push would be slowed, and a 1/1/1 will be easier to hold if you aren't prepared for it, since if you get a raven u can nullify banshee shots, or get like 2 tanks to hold on your ledge.
I didn't notice the unlimited range thing before.. how stupid is that? Not in a balance way i just mean it's nonsensical that an ability can just magically turn a unit into something across the other side of the map.
maybe replicating medivacs to have healing zealot drops would be a good idea, or lategame 3/3 zealot archon with medivac support, as in the very lategame the 200/200 cost doesn't matter that much i think unless you are mined out everywhere.
It's too bad it isn't more of an 'improved hallucination'. Pick what you want, when you want =)
Every time i try to think of a way to use it in combat, it just seems that it brings you up to where you would have been if you produced actual units. It seems like it's main purpose is to copy a unit and cheese with it.
Also, how often is the counter to what's attacking you the exact same unit? MMM at my front door, quick lets replicate some... marines? Oh no, ling counter, let me just replicate the lings?
Unlimited range will get nerfed, your observer (from the same tech, lol) in enemy base replicators replicating in your main. Protoss siege expand, sup.
Sorry if this has been mentioned but I did a quick scroll through the thread and didnt see it.
When they say the replicator gets all the upgrades does that include 3/3/3. If so especially early game I probably wouldn't mind replicating an immortal or VR even for extra gas cost as it comes with upgrades that you don't pay for. In the case of VRs you can get no air upgrades for the duration of the game and have 3/3/3 VRs.
On October 25 2011 09:50 Dracover wrote: Sorry if this has been mentioned but I did a quick scroll through the thread and didnt see it.
When they say the replicator gets all the upgrades does that include 3/3/3. If so especially early game I probably wouldn't mind replicating an immortal or VR even for extra gas cost as it comes with upgrades that you don't pay for. In the case of VRs you can get no air upgrades for the duration of the game and have 3/3/3 VRs.
I don't think anyone's confirmed one way or another (I didn't check while at blizzcon), but I doubt it gets 3/3 upgrades.
I think after a certain point in the game, all replicators become self aware and becomes a 3rd players in game turning it into a 3 players FFA. It will be to the interest of the two human players to set aside their differences and unite to fight the replicators. The replicators will take increase damage from tier one units and will only replicate tier 2-3 units with a preference for tier 3.
This will really encourage a responsible use of replicators and add some interesting strategies in 2v2 and 3v3 as well
On October 25 2011 10:13 stork4ever wrote: I think after a certain point in the game, all replicators become self aware and becomes a 3rd players in game turning it into a 3 players FFA. It will be to the interest of the two human players to set aside their differences and unite to fight the replicators. The replicators will take increase damage from tier one units and will only replicate tier 2-3 units with a preference for tier 3.
This will really encourage a responsible use of replicators and add some interesting strategies in 2v2 and 3v3 as well
You sir, are a born philosopher! Will you be my friend!?
Replicant is good. However, I'm not sure where it fits in strat-wise. Is it going to be better than collosus/immortal?
Terran: Ghosts seem nice but the gain seems marginal. EMP? we could just feedback. Cloak is cool, but to what end? I don't see tanks or ravens often, and while your banshee is better, Terran are less vulnerable. However, I think one Medivac is key. Any saved collosus is worth it. Ghost+Snipe against Vikings is solid as well. Again any saved Collosus is worth it. Three fully charged Ghosts is eight dead Vikings.
Zerg: Similar question. For opportunity, is it better than other robo options? Or sentries? That said Swarm is really good for you, and you are likely to see Vipers to answer Collosus. Also, hatchery and drones is a good mineral dump for the late game. Investors seem a bit expensive in my opinion' but not terrible.
On October 25 2011 12:41 whateversclever wrote: Replicant is good. However, I'm not sure where it fits in strat-wise. Is it going to be better than collosus/immortal?
Terran: Ghosts seem nice but the gain seems marginal. EMP? we could just feedback. Cloak is cool, but to what end? I don't see tanks or ravens often, and while your banshee is better, Terran are less vulnerable. However, I think one Medivac is key. Any saved collosus is worth it. Ghost+Snipe against Vikings is solid as well. Again any saved Collosus is worth it. Three fully charged Ghosts is eight dead Vikings.
Zerg: Similar question. For opportunity, is it better than other robo options? Or sentries? That said Swarm is really good for you, and you are likely to see Vipers to answer Collosus. Also, hatchery and drones is a good mineral dump for the late game. Investors seem a bit expensive in my opinion' but not terrible.
you realise snipe only works against biological units right?
I see this as having limited uses. You can use it for a fast switch to void rays, make from stargate and make replicators from robo so you double the production without having to make more stargates. I see them to be good to have with an army if you are not for sure what tech your opponent went becuase you can get a few units that you need right away, so it makes it easier for protoss to react to fast tech switches.
As for copying your opponents units, it is completely situational, and this is where it could become OP. If you get a few infestors with a protoss ball, it becomes nearly unkillable, which I think will make zergs afaraid to make infestors which is one thing Blizzard said they didn't want it to do. I don't see a lot with terran that is worth copying, maybe banshees or tanks but I don't see them being that useful.
Well, the 1/1/1 all-in is dead if the replicant is put into the game as is, he'll just chrono a few out (they build way faster than immortals) and copy your banshees and kill you with cloaked banshees, or he'll copy your tanks and hold you off with siege tanks while his superior economy gets ahead.
basically you will want to copy tanks, ghosts, banshees, ravens, infestors, and vipers. Anything else it is not worth the 200/200 cost or can't (since they are massive)
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
Archons, Colossi, and Tempests are all massive units.
Timed transformations actually make the unit imba, as it becomes flexible in its engagements. Think how imba it would be after the replicated banshee returns and then replicates a HT for max MP & full abilities, or turn them into immortals or Vikings or ...
You get the idea. Replicators in their present form are fine. There's enough counters and strategy existing that will defeat any of the already mentioned "abuse".
I mean going robo > replicator > CC/Hatch expand would put one very far behind in army.
replicate scv to produce orbitals for mules/scan or create PF's to make taking expansions more easily, units i would think that are good to replicated are the new viper and siege tanks.
I feel the Unit is better off for low league players. Havent scouted enough, and your opponent does mass roach push while you only have one immortal?
NP replicate another immortal and you stand a chance. I'm sure there is thousands of ways to use this. But I feel like this unti is going to be OP when people actually understand all his limits(or none)
if this makes it into the game, the upside is, that Blizz can finally stop balancing 2v2....because the even theoretical amount of possible unit-combinations fighting each other is mind-boggling lol
On October 25 2011 00:40 WrathOfAiur wrote: I would replicate a scv and start building macro CCs in the lategame. I heard those mules are pretty good!!11!1
IIRC the MULEs (and SCVs) will only return minerals to the OCs, but you can't just use them instead of nexuses at all your expoes because probes will only return resources to nexuses. Thus if you really wanted to do this, you would have to kill all your probes and nexuses in order to replace them with MULEs and SCVs.
On October 25 2011 00:40 WrathOfAiur wrote: I would replicate a scv and start building macro CCs in the lategame. I heard those mules are pretty good!!11!1
IIRC the MULEs (and SCVs) will only return minerals to the OCs, but you can't just use them instead of nexuses at all your expoes because probes will only return resources to nexuses. Thus if you really wanted to do this, you would have to kill all your probes and nexuses in order to replace them with MULEs and SCVs.
But when you put your own nexus with a infestor you can mine to other races buildings and gas, it should be the same
On October 25 2011 00:40 WrathOfAiur wrote: I would replicate a scv and start building macro CCs in the lategame. I heard those mules are pretty good!!11!1
IIRC the MULEs (and SCVs) will only return minerals to the OCs, but you can't just use them instead of nexuses at all your expoes because probes will only return resources to nexuses. Thus if you really wanted to do this, you would have to kill all your probes and nexuses in order to replace them with MULEs and SCVs.
No.. just no. Do you even play team games? Workers can mine/harvest just fine on alien tech.
Of course by the time you went robo > observer > replicant, you could already be too far behind after replicating worker then CC/hatch expand. But we'll have to see.
It could work. It would be interesting to see zealot/marine/immortal in 1v1 go up against, MMM.
I'm quite sure it won't be imba since the resources gathered would be essentially the same for both sides. The potential for interesting P game play is huge.
well doesnt the raven come with upgrades. so a swift hunter seeker missile will meet the marines in a glorious display of how much energy does a replicated unit have?
On October 25 2011 19:13 Nyast wrote: Can't wait to see a Terran that goes 1/1/1 with a raven, only to replicate the raven, drop a PDD and enjoy the marines being useless :p
PDD does not affect marines, only visible projectiles, iirc.
On October 25 2011 19:13 Nyast wrote: Can't wait to see a Terran that goes 1/1/1 with a raven, only to replicate the raven, drop a PDD and enjoy the marines being useless :p
You mean HSM the marines. PDD works on missiles only (corruptor/hydra/marauder/banshee/etc)
Edit: This keeps getting repeated, sigh, replicated units are fully unlocked with full MP.
Anybody else thinks this unit is Blizzard's sneaky way of learning what units to add to LotV?
They can implement some sort of code into the game to report back what type of units are being most replicated to fill the Protoss's composition. Then implement that unit in LotV and remove replicator.
It's already at robo tech so it's fairly common. If this is what Blizzard's thinking, I have to say, it's pretty clever
On October 25 2011 19:21 Nyast wrote: Ah damn, I was so happy. I'll take the HSM as a replacement then, thx :p
raven does stop marauders, vikings, and probably warhound shots though. If you can force a raven out from Terran using DTs + oracles + nexus recall, you'll have a huge advantage late game when raven protects your collosus from vikings and stalkers from marauders
The real question is: "If you replicate a SCV, can you build a bunker and put zealots in it? What about a bunker with 4 high templars in it casting storm? :D
1. Replicate infestor 2. Fungal and AoE the same spot 3. ???? 4. Profit
I play 2's with a friend and as a ZP combo. I can tell you now that Storm and fungal in combination is ridiculous! Imagine fungalling corruptors to keep your collossi safe, the possibilities are endless.
Personally i think it should have a range, but i do like the idea of it, Protoss players talk about difficult tech switches, this gives you the flexibility to balance your army with the opponent alot quicker.
i don't think this unit will be put into the game , if you watch the interview with dustin bowder on tl , he explains that units that have to many rules and exceptions on them will be cut , this 1 already has 1 extra rule as it can't copy massive units and it will be a b...ch to balance , i mean it will change match ups alot ,medifacts with zealots?and also it get's all the spells even if not upgraded by opponent, if you pick a ghost can you nuke the terrans? fungal , forcefield , colosus op?
it's a cool unit sure but i think it's not possible to have a balanced game with it , without nerfing it to the ground.
On October 25 2011 19:57 anjdza wrote: Can you replicate replicants? :D
You'd think so, but.....why?
I think replicating workers will be a good move, but one would have to remember to kill your own replicator after you're done I think. 4 supply for a drone/SCV is waaaaaay too much
Zerg units are too cheap to replicate aside from the viper or massive / not efficient as a single unit and too supply and cost inefficient to mass replicate.
Terran siege tanks could be worth it (but expensive) in some situations and probably some shredders to hinder T movement.
Protoss only immortals and void rays as you said but they have no important upgrades anyway so it seems kind of pointless.
In general this unit is only for timing pushes and harassement purposes and maybe defending those. The high supply and resource cost stops it from being any good at anything in my opinion. You only have a shot at harassing your opponent if he went for it himself, if he/she plays standard or macro you are behind with replicators.
Either their build time is very good in combination with chrono boost for timing pushes and skipping some tech of your own or there is no point.
On October 25 2011 19:48 waylanderm wrote: i don't think this unit will be put into the game , if you watch the interview with dustin bowder on tl , he explains that units that have to many rules and exceptions on them will be cut , this 1 already has 1 extra rule as it can't copy massive units and it will be a b...ch to balance , i mean it will change match ups alot ,medifacts with zealots?and also it get's all the spells even if not upgraded by opponent, if you pick a ghost can you nuke the terrans? fungal , forcefield , colosus op?
it's a cool unit sure but i think it's not possible to have a balanced game with it , without nerfing it to the ground.
Chill man...
How is replicating an SCV/Drone any more imba than a ZP/TP team game that share resources perfectly , except that a P spent so much resources and chrono to rush observer and replicator?
On site posters have already addressed the concern of having a 200+200 army. Total supply of 200 regardless of depots/overlord/pylons. Use depots as wall-in? Hilarious if a T opponent scout late and wonders why he's seeing depots walling off when he's fighting Protoss. Disastrous if against R. You can't nuke without a nuke (duh). Yes. Yes. Which part of "No Massives" is difficult understand?
The cost of the replicator already balances most of it. 200/200 for a medivac? Ouch. 200/200 for sentry/HT/ghost/banshee with "free"hallucination/storm/cloak available? Ouch.
On October 25 2011 19:57 anjdza wrote: Can you replicate replicants? :D
Yes, you should be able to replicate replicants that can replicate. I hope this makes it into the game, i.e. replicating a replicated siege tank and the replicant replicates into a ... replicant. You clearly have too much APM to spend. :p
On October 25 2011 21:42 Goken wrote: What if i replicate an overlord...
Do i get speed and drop... That will surely confuse the hell out of the zerg.
also raise my supply-cap?
Yes. A replicated roach would have burrow AND tunnelling claws. Ergo, a replicated overlord would have both of the abilities and an increased max supply of 6, while consuming 4.
The supply cap is an interesting one. I have a feeling the devs didn't think that far ahead.
This raises a good point though. When you replicate a unit, do you automatically gain research the unit CAN get? Or is it all the upgrades that your opponent has researched?
And I feel a bit sad now that the Mothership has gone. I want a Funday Monday situation where I get a Replicant, and get a Mothership, replicate an SCV and get the new Thor
On October 25 2011 21:42 Goken wrote: What if i replicate an overlord...
Do i get speed and drop... That will surely confuse the hell out of the zerg.
also raise my supply-cap?
Yes. A replicated roach would have burrow AND tunnelling claws. Ergo, a replicated overlord would have both of the abilities and an increased max supply of 6, while consuming 4.
The supply cap is an interesting one. I have a feeling the devs didn't think that far ahead.
Don't think it works like that. You replicate an overlord, and it will still be 4 supply, without granting you 6. Just as if you replicate a zergling, it won't be 4.5 supply, and if you replicate a marine, it won't be 5. (granting supply isn't an ability of the overlord, it just has a supply value of -6)
But it would have drops and speed. I don't know if it would have creep dropping though, since that requires a lair, and it isn't an upgrade.
If you send an obs to a zerg base, and replicate an infestor or something, can you then replicate your own replicated infestor to make more? or do you need to see a real unit to do it?
On October 25 2011 00:39 Yaotzin wrote: You can't replicate your own units right? That would be very silly. Make collo -> make replicators, getting 200/200 collos with a free range upgrade. hah!
On October 26 2011 00:21 zmansman17 wrote: I dont like the unlimited range option. Make it like the dark archon and you had to finesse your way into taking an SCV and shoving it in a transport
Unlike you, I actually want to see Protoss go robo hatch expand into Zealot/Infestor/Colossus (and Terran equalivalent), SCV kidnap takes place way too late for it to be a viable BO. I've been waiting a decade already.
On October 25 2011 21:42 Goken wrote: What if i replicate an overlord...
Do i get speed and drop... That will surely confuse the hell out of the zerg.
also raise my supply-cap?
Yes. A replicated roach would have burrow AND tunnelling claws. Ergo, a replicated overlord would have both of the abilities and an increased max supply of 6, while consuming 4.
The supply cap is an interesting one. I have a feeling the devs didn't think that far ahead.
Don't think it works like that. You replicate an overlord, and it will still be 4 supply, without granting you 6. Just as if you replicate a zergling, it won't be 4.5 supply, and if you replicate a marine, it won't be 5. (granting supply isn't an ability of the overlord, it just has a supply value of -6)
But it would have drops and speed. I don't know if it would have creep dropping though, since that requires a lair, and it isn't an upgrade.
I'm pretty sure it would give you supply. I can't test atm, but if you neural a overlord do you get the supply? I'm guessing it will work in a similar way.
On October 25 2011 00:37 Laurens wrote: Can you replicate your own units? Can you replicate a replication? If so, protoss will never have to pay more than 200/200 for a unit. You just make 1 and then start making replicators ...
Edit: this would make Archons, colossi and tempests cheaper. It would make void rays 50 minerals cheaper, but 50 gas more expensive so you probably wouldn't do that.
Yes you can replicate your own units. However, you cannot replicate massive units, so archons and colossi are out of the picture.
Gutted, was just thinking about getting collosi with thermal lance for 200/200 without the upgrade.
think seige tanks will be one of the better units to replicate, protoss with a fall back point would be scary.
You are P. Opponent is Z. Opponent makes infestors. You make replicants. You replicate an infestor. Opponent NP's a different replicant. While replicant is NP'd by Z infestor, P infestor NP's Z infestor. Just before P infestor NP's Z infestor NP'ing replicant, opponent manages to replicate an immortal. But right as opponent replicates an immortal, P infestor's NP hits Z infestor.
So whose immortal is it anyway? I see the need for a "red flag" review system like in the NFL.
Im personally thinking about how they are going to ruin zergs when they rep an infestor, fungal the whole army and then proceed to storm it while the charge zealots run in.
On October 26 2011 00:46 Lurk wrote: Dustin said the replicated unit receives all the upgrade, regardless if the original owner had it. But what about weapon/armor ups ?
If replicated units automatically had 3/3, that would create some really sick timing pushes.
no i dont think it g ets damage or armor upgrades ^^
as far as pvz goes i think ud always wanna get 1 infestor if u can, even 1 viper can prove great in situations. like the combo of fungal and storm or colossus should be extremely good. like if i have ling banelingoverlord infestor, they can just fungal my overlords when i get close and then what, lol. this is just 1 example out of MANY where the replicant would be so good to have
i doubt this unit will make it because i think it will be always too strong, or too complicated, or nerfed to the ground that its useless. i dont really see why they would design this unit. on top of it it seems to remove strategy and tactics rather than increasing it. for example zerg can end up choosing not to build any infestor because they know if toss had infestor it would be too hard to deal with
i like the idea of mind controlling, but the way the do it here is completely different.
would prefer if they brought dark archon back to the table
On October 25 2011 21:42 Goken wrote: What if i replicate an overlord...
Do i get speed and drop... That will surely confuse the hell out of the zerg.
also raise my supply-cap?
Yes. A replicated roach would have burrow AND tunnelling claws. Ergo, a replicated overlord would have both of the abilities and an increased max supply of 6, while consuming 4.
The supply cap is an interesting one. I have a feeling the devs didn't think that far ahead.
Don't think it works like that. You replicate an overlord, and it will still be 4 supply, without granting you 6. Just as if you replicate a zergling, it won't be 4.5 supply, and if you replicate a marine, it won't be 5. (granting supply isn't an ability of the overlord, it just has a supply value of -6)
But it would have drops and speed. I don't know if it would have creep dropping though, since that requires a lair, and it isn't an upgrade.
I'm pretty sure it would give you supply. I can't test atm, but if you neural a overlord do you get the supply? I'm guessing it will work in a similar way.
When you neural an overlord you get the supply, yes, because you're getting a new unit. But when you neural a roach or something, you lose the supply.
As far as I'm aware, Replicants are always 4 supply. They don't change after they replicate. If they do change (e.g, replicating a zealot would free up 3 supply), then yes, replicating an overlord would give you supply.
Replicator is not going to make it into the game, so don't worry. The only way I see it making its way into the game is if they make it so it can only replicate your own units.
Otherwise, i'm switching to protoss, and every PvT I get i'm turning into a TvT except I'll have much better units with my tanks lulz.
On October 25 2011 00:53 Thrasymachus725 wrote: A 1/1/1 is moving towards your base. A single replicator would stop it. This is the most powerful use of the replicator that I was able to come up with. Replicating a single siege tank would take marines down. A second replicator could be used to get a banshee to work over his tanks or the marines who survive the tank, or perform a counterharass. Getting a worker would be an incredible risk. It would be a long time before it would pay for itself. The whole point of the unit is that you pay a little extra resources in order to get strategic access to a unit that you normally do not have access to. Tanks or Ghosts, and possibly Ravens seem like they would be more appropriate. Fungal Growth may be an interesting thing, but in all honesty infestors seem like they are more specialized for Zerg, and would be less useful on the protoss. I am assuming that only the replicated unit gets access to the upgrade and not all the units. Otherwise this would turn PvP into a ridiculous stagnant tech fight... kinda like it has always been. Viper may be fun... Getting to inject a detect onto an Immortal would be useful, but of course all the Vipers ability would be cool for protoss. Swarm Host have yet to be seen.
Realistically, I only see uses for replicators against Terran and Vipers.
But I think their presence in the tech tree is going to change all the matchups considerably. I am looking forward to it!
If you look at Fungal + Storm, that would seem pretty strong, no?
On October 26 2011 01:00 avilo wrote: Replicator is not going to make it into the game, so don't worry. The only way I see it making its way into the game is if they make it so it can only replicate your own units.
Otherwise, i'm switching to protoss, and every PvT I get i'm turning into a TvT except I'll have much better units with my tanks lulz.
Enjoy losing ladder points.
Based on my estimates, going robo > observer > replicant > SCV is a huge time sink, the average time you could likely reach their base with an observer is 6:40, by this time the T would already have begun saturating his expansion while you're still on one base.
200/200 would mean you would have forced to build another pylon and lost upgrades +1/+1 or have a smaller army. But... If you could pull it off you could see a huge pay off by way of having very powerful TP and ZP unit comps.
Zealot/marine and stalker/sling are proven mid-game comps.
On October 26 2011 01:00 avilo wrote: Replicator is not going to make it into the game, so don't worry. The only way I see it making its way into the game is if they make it so it can only replicate your own units.
Otherwise, i'm switching to protoss, and every PvT I get i'm turning into a TvT except I'll have much better units with my tanks lulz.
You'll also have 3/4ths the number of tanks your opponent has because a replicant costs one extra food, 50 extra minerals, and 75 extra gas. You'll likely lose any advantage you may have gotten from unit comp to being significantly outnumbered.
Edit: Apparently this has been mentioned dozens of times
Not sure if its been mentioned but I feel as if the replicant will make the 1-1-1 pushes less frightening, due to replicating tanks or a raven. So you have your obs spec out their raven/tank replicate those and bam! You have 2 or 3 siege capable tanks or maybe 1 to 2 ravens with enough energy for hsm.
I'm assuming you get access to the replicant without the robotics support bay and it costs 200/200. So you can get +1 replicator vs colossi route, and you save 100 mineral per replicator vs colossi.
In my opinion that is also why 1-1-1 is so powerful as the time it hits is just as a protoss is getting their aoe abilites up unless they have made huge cuts in economy or army size.
replicate a banshee so that you have like 3 of them and send them to terran and the terran will be soooooooooooo screwed since he WILL lose SCVs to cloaked banshees and also will be forced to build turrets or scan all the time also this will totally kill 1 1 1 all in with banshees since it will die to replicated banshees + tanks
On October 26 2011 00:42 FallDownMarigold wrote: You are P. Opponent is Z. Opponent makes infestors. You make replicants. You replicate an infestor. Opponent NP's a different replicant. While replicant is NP'd by Z infestor, P infestor NP's Z infestor. Just before P infestor NP's Z infestor NP'ing replicant, opponent manages to replicate an immortal. But right as opponent replicates an immortal, P infestor's NP hits Z infestor.
So whose immortal is it anyway? I see the need for a "red flag" review system like in the NFL.
This isn't that complicated. It's your immortal. NP is temporary. While the opponent has it under NP and you NP the opponent, the immortal is under your control (since you now control his infestor while it is channeling its ability). So the only thing that happened is the opponent got to change one of your replicants for you (by making it permanently into an immortal). Case closed.
On October 26 2011 02:56 sVnteen wrote: replicate a banshee so that you have like 3 of them and send them to terran and the terran will be soooooooooooo screwed since he WILL lose SCVs to cloaked banshees and also will be forced to build turrets or scan all the time also this will totally kill 1 1 1 all in with banshees since it will die to replicated banshees + tanks
They're not cheap - terrans would be HAPPY to burn a scan (which costs 240-270 minerals from the loss of a mule) to kill a unit that costs you 200/200. You're just throwing money away doing that. You'd have to get like four worker kills to justify it with just one banshee, and depending on how far away his marines or vikings are that's gonna be close. And since you can only do it when he actually makes a banshee for you to copy, this is going to be a very uncommon situational tactic. Maybe if you use it to hit an expo that just got a bunch of mules dropped on it, but that's just making it even more situational.
EDIT: This may actually be one of the few cases where someone can say these words, but DTs are actually probably more cost-effective than that and could accomplish more or less the same thing.
On October 26 2011 04:37 anjdza wrote: Replicate never ending Mule!
In all likelihood, you can't replicate summoned units.
Because anyone would be extremely pissed to accidentally replicate an Auto-turret or a PDD or worse, a broodling! I can imagine the number of complaints blizzard will receive.. Lol
On October 26 2011 02:56 sVnteen wrote: replicate a banshee so that you have like 3 of them and send them to terran and the terran will be soooooooooooo screwed since he WILL lose SCVs to cloaked banshees and also will be forced to build turrets or scan all the time also this will totally kill 1 1 1 all in with banshees since it will die to replicated banshees + tanks
They're not cheap - terrans would be HAPPY to burn a scan (which costs 240-270 minerals from the loss of a mule) to kill a unit that costs you 200/200. You're just throwing money away doing that. You'd have to get like four worker kills to justify it with just one banshee, and depending on how far away his marines or vikings are that's gonna be close. And since you can only do it when he actually makes a banshee for you to copy, this is going to be a very uncommon situational tactic. Maybe if you use it to hit an expo that just got a bunch of mules dropped on it, but that's just making it even more situational.
EDIT: This may actually be one of the few cases where someone can say these words, but DTs are actually probably more cost-effective than that and could accomplish more or less the same thing.
By that logic, why do Terran make banshees in TvT?
scans are also very limited early on, Terran really needs those mules early game
On October 24 2011 23:58 VTPerfect wrote: To be perfectly honest I think the best use of this unit is in conjunction with some sort of 2 base warp prism harass. the harass hopefully does some damage but the important part is gaining vision of your terran opponents SCV, using the Replicator to morph into an SCV and then gain access to quasi fixes to the real problems with Protoss IE producing ghosts to emp their ghosts, medivacs cuz your units can't heal, vikings cause you don't have an Air to Air armor bonus unit etc etc etc.
I still think this is awful cause at this point your not playing Protoss your plating Proran and Prozerg and i didnt pick Protoss to use Ran and Zerg units but its pretty much ur best bet.
This will never work. You have to go down the protoss and terran tech trees at once. Investment in production/tech is going to put you far behind in army. Maybe in a very late game scenario I can see it working... but at that point you might as well replicate the ghosts.
I can't see how this is a balanced unit as it now stands. Imagine PT unit comps v T unit comps late game. It's a no brainer who will win that match +20 minutes in. (Listening to state of game confirmed this for me(
On October 26 2011 02:56 sVnteen wrote: replicate a banshee so that you have like 3 of them and send them to terran and the terran will be soooooooooooo screwed since he WILL lose SCVs to cloaked banshees and also will be forced to build turrets or scan all the time also this will totally kill 1 1 1 all in with banshees since it will die to replicated banshees + tanks
They're not cheap - terrans would be HAPPY to burn a scan (which costs 240-270 minerals from the loss of a mule) to kill a unit that costs you 200/200. You're just throwing money away doing that. You'd have to get like four worker kills to justify it with just one banshee, and depending on how far away his marines or vikings are that's gonna be close. And since you can only do it when he actually makes a banshee for you to copy, this is going to be a very uncommon situational tactic. Maybe if you use it to hit an expo that just got a bunch of mules dropped on it, but that's just making it even more situational.
EDIT: This may actually be one of the few cases where someone can say these words, but DTs are actually probably more cost-effective than that and could accomplish more or less the same thing.
By that logic, why do Terran make banshees in TvT?
scans are also very limited early on, Terran really needs those mules early game
Well when Terran makes a banshee it doesn't cost 200/200 does it...
Having it cost 200/200 via Replicant means you essentially have to do twice the damage as a Terran would in order to justify it.
I don't like the idea of the replicator at all. Stealing a unit to shore up Protoss's weaknesses? Why not work on their actual flaws with units instead of adding this stupid thing?
On October 26 2011 02:56 sVnteen wrote: replicate a banshee so that you have like 3 of them and send them to terran and the terran will be soooooooooooo screwed since he WILL lose SCVs to cloaked banshees and also will be forced to build turrets or scan all the time also this will totally kill 1 1 1 all in with banshees since it will die to replicated banshees + tanks
They're not cheap - terrans would be HAPPY to burn a scan (which costs 240-270 minerals from the loss of a mule) to kill a unit that costs you 200/200. You're just throwing money away doing that. You'd have to get like four worker kills to justify it with just one banshee, and depending on how far away his marines or vikings are that's gonna be close. And since you can only do it when he actually makes a banshee for you to copy, this is going to be a very uncommon situational tactic. Maybe if you use it to hit an expo that just got a bunch of mules dropped on it, but that's just making it even more situational.
EDIT: This may actually be one of the few cases where someone can say these words, but DTs are actually probably more cost-effective than that and could accomplish more or less the same thing.
By that logic, why do Terran make banshees in TvT?
scans are also very limited early on, Terran really needs those mules early game
Well when Terran makes a banshee it doesn't cost 200/200 does it...
Having it cost 200/200 via Replicant means you essentially have to do twice the damage as a Terran would in order to justify it.
No
Because you get free cloak.
a 200/200 ability on top of a 150/100 unit with FULL energy. And banshees dont die in 1 scan if you have any Apm and/or game sense
On October 26 2011 02:56 sVnteen wrote: replicate a banshee so that you have like 3 of them and send them to terran and the terran will be soooooooooooo screwed since he WILL lose SCVs to cloaked banshees and also will be forced to build turrets or scan all the time also this will totally kill 1 1 1 all in with banshees since it will die to replicated banshees + tanks
They're not cheap - terrans would be HAPPY to burn a scan (which costs 240-270 minerals from the loss of a mule) to kill a unit that costs you 200/200. You're just throwing money away doing that. You'd have to get like four worker kills to justify it with just one banshee, and depending on how far away his marines or vikings are that's gonna be close. And since you can only do it when he actually makes a banshee for you to copy, this is going to be a very uncommon situational tactic. Maybe if you use it to hit an expo that just got a bunch of mules dropped on it, but that's just making it even more situational.
EDIT: This may actually be one of the few cases where someone can say these words, but DTs are actually probably more cost-effective than that and could accomplish more or less the same thing.
By that logic, why do Terran make banshees in TvT?
scans are also very limited early on, Terran really needs those mules early game
Well when Terran makes a banshee it doesn't cost 200/200 does it...
Having it cost 200/200 via Replicant means you essentially have to do twice the damage as a Terran would in order to justify it.
Well, not so much. If a terran player gets just one or two and the cloak upgrade they're actually paying more than Protoss thanks to the upgrade cost. So Terran actually has to kill more to justify them in that case. But that's not really important. It's not about which race needs to do more to justify them - it's about whether or not YOU can justify them in the matchup you're in right now. Against Terran, it's tough, because they can scan and basically wipe out your heavy gas investment with just a mineral loss, which can really hurt as the midgame proceeds.
iky does actually make a good (albeit unintended) point - a lot of high level TvT players actually don't justify their Banshees. They're a risky play no matter who you are, and there have been plenty of games where someone went banshees, didn't do the damage they needed to, and then "just got killed." TvT, though, is such a damned turtle-fest and defender's advantage is strong enough that they often can be a bit behind and still be okay. TvP, though, is not TvT. Not only will you be throwing away precious gas if you fail to justify your banshees, you'll be taking up robo build time - and consider that you probably already had to make an obs to deal with Terran's original banshee. This will force your army to be gateway-reliant for longer, while Terran has likely continued uninterrupted production on his barracks.
This brings me to another problem with the idea. You can't just make replicants and have them sit doing nothing, hoping that Terran makes something you want. That's a waste of money that you need to actually build an army and do other fun stuff. If you do that, and no banshee or tank or whatever shows up, and Terran just comes knocking with a big standard ball of bio, what are you going to do with them? Nice 200/200 marauders you bought there You need to build them with purpose. But if you wait until the banshee is already in your mineral line to start making one, it's too late - you can't just let it have its way until you get a replicant out to copy it. So the only way this works is if you spot the port with researching tech lab and terran decides not to cancel. Then you should have enough time to get the replicant up fast enough to pull this off. That's no small feat - if that was easy to do, Terran would never be able to successfully use banshee harass in TvP, because it's only good as long as they don't see it coming.
I think there are a lot of potential uses for the replicant, but this particular one seems very situational and difficult to pull off reliably. Maybe it could work as a decent surprise attack if you, for instance, had a bunch of replicants already up that you were just about to do something else with, but then saw the banshee and thought "oh, he won't see this coming." But making replicants takes time away from building colossi (and immortals), which you might want against Terran.
I suppose replicating just one banshee would be quite cost efficient though. However I'm sure it won't be as useful, since the Terran knows that if he opens with banshee, there is a decent probability that a cloaked banshee will be used against him, and therefore will either not make the banshee or prepare accordingly.
I'd still just rather blizzard give us our own unique unit, if I loved Terran units so much I would just play Terran.
Im not so sure about the unit at all, why would any terran make a siege / banshee at all if theres a possibility of being copied. I do have a feeling this unit not gonna make it, it just makes terrans play standard bio with maybe ghosts and viking / medivac support.
Other than the ghost theres is nothing worth being copied, and even if you make a single banshee / siege / raven, the toss can get even 5 of those in a moment.
This unit feels so wierd to fit into the game, yet so fitting. You cant really add another tanky robo unit with the immortal and colossus, they are good enough. The replicant is just a crazy unit that could have amazing strategies
The problem i have with it is it wont tie in with any strategies. For some protoss plays, you could be going for zealots, immortals, colossus, voids, etc. But with replicants, its just up to chance in what your opponent makes. It is a hard unit to fit into strategies
On October 26 2011 16:44 Darksoldierr wrote: Im not so sure about the unit at all, why would any terran make a siege / banshee at all if theres a possibility of being copied. I do have a feeling this unit not gonna make it, it just makes terrans play standard bio with maybe ghosts and viking / medivac support.
Other than the ghost theres is nothing worth being copied, and even if you make a single banshee / siege / raven, the toss can get even 5 of those in a moment.
That won't happen because I know if I see either SCVs or any of my units, already I am ahead of my opponent in unit count, the bigger the replicant count, the more ahead I will be.
Thusly, scouting a replicant building a CC would mean if I snipe the SCV or cause the CC to be lost, I would be so far ahead, it wouldn't be funny.
However, the other function is clutch defence. Replicating my own ghosts then EMPing them followed by chain sniping everything, or replicate banshees and scoot-shoot like boss. Replicated Siege tanks, are a joke of course, a decent ball of stimmed marauder w/ medivac can take care of that. Same applies playing against Zerg. In the either case, I highly doubt that we would be seeing that kind of clutch defence except above diamond level.
For the most part, replicant will end up like the DT, cool concept but relegated to "cute" play because of the significant cost and risks involved. Eventually someone would come up with a cheese for it. Such as marauder/zealot/sentry, siege tank/blink stalker and so on.
The only exception being worker replicant play. That has potential, tough to pull off, but worth its rewards. It is extremely greedy play, one basing three gate, robo into observer then replicator, if the expansion is lost (replicated SCV sniped/hatch cancelled) or the observer sniped that would be very huge. But the rewards are just as huge, MULEs and scan, being able to chrono marines/siege tanks/battle cruisers, access to queen, banelings, mobile defences (spine/spore), etc
Imagine Huk doing speedling/blink stalker push against Idra. That would be so cool.
On October 26 2011 16:50 firehand101 wrote: This unit feels so wierd to fit into the game, yet so fitting. You cant really add another tanky robo unit with the immortal and colossus, they are good enough. The replicant is just a crazy unit that could have amazing strategies
The problem i have with it is it wont tie in with any strategies. For some protoss plays, you could be going for zealots, immortals, colossus, voids, etc. But with replicants, its just up to chance in what your opponent makes. It is a hard unit to fit into strategies
This isn't entirely true. There's a lot of potential for using them as part of a quick transition away from robo to stargate by replicating your own units. Consider - once you decide you want to get void rays or phoenix, you have to throw down the stargate and wait. While that's building, you can pump out a couple replicants, so that the instant your the gate finishes and you build your first air unit you can instantly have as many of it as you have replicants, plus the one you just made. Not as cost effective as building them all normally, but much faster.
You could also clone an HT so that you have fast access to storm and full energy, but that's probably more of a reactive scenario than a strategy.
On October 26 2011 16:50 firehand101 wrote: This unit feels so wierd to fit into the game, yet so fitting. You cant really add another tanky robo unit with the immortal and colossus, they are good enough. The replicant is just a crazy unit that could have amazing strategies
The problem i have with it is it wont tie in with any strategies. For some protoss plays, you could be going for zealots, immortals, colossus, voids, etc. But with replicants, its just up to chance in what your opponent makes. It is a hard unit to fit into strategies
This isn't entirely true. There's a lot of potential for using them as part of a quick transition away from robo to stargate by replicating your own units. Consider - once you decide you want to get void rays or phoenix, you have to throw down the stargate and wait. While that's building, you can pump out a couple replicants, so that the instant your the gate finishes and you build your first air unit you can instantly have as many of it as you have replicants, plus the one you just made. Not as cost effective as building them all normally, but much faster.
You could also clone an HT so that you have fast access to storm and full energy, but that's probably more of a reactive scenario than a strategy.
It in any case adds alot of flexibility to the protoss tech tree.
Replicating your own HTs so you don't have to get psi storm may be worth it if you only want a few (1HT + 1 rep = 250/350, 2HT + psi storm = 300/500). Replicating a medivac may be helpful because it lets you heal zealots. Replicating ravens could also be really helpful thanks to the underrated seeker missile.
On October 26 2011 17:45 architecture wrote: We need to know if the replicator can replicate hallucinations. That would allow P to show tech from any tree.
replicating a hallucination would result in you having another hallucination of the same kind.
does not seem like a very effective use of the replicant, but I assume you cannot replicate timed-life units.
imagine the rage if someone misclicked and replicated a broodling or locust.
but we don't know anything, for all I know, it might be possible to replicate timed-life units, it would also be the most useless use of replicants ever.
imagine the end-game scenario: a protoss have 50 replicants, the armies killed eachother, all resources are mined out creep is slowly receeding and after a while it dissappears entirely, leaving a spire to die by starvation, when the spire dies the replicants replicate the broodlings in a desperate attempt to kill off the very last extractor.
that would be hilarious.
On October 26 2011 18:28 SchfiftyFive wrote: if u made scvs could they repair stalkers,immortals and such?
yes, if you replicated SCVs they could repair your mechanical units, but paying 200/200 just to get 1 unit that can repair is a little steep no?
edit: personally I fear the following: in 2v2: TPvsXY the terran rushes to get a single banshee the protoss rushes to get some replicators when the banshee comes out the replicators replicate the banshee
congratulations, you now have Y cloaked banshees to harrass your opponent with at X minutes into the game!
ok, lets calculate X
3:00 the first barracks finishes up 4:00 the first factory finishes up 4:50 the first starport finishes up (a techlab have been prduced by the barracks) 5:50 the banshee finishes.
lets see how many replicators in the same time is realistic.
3:00 the first gateway finishes 3:50 the cybernetics core finishes 4:55 the robo finishes time left: 1:05 I think I heard someone say the replicator is 30 seconds of buildtime so you can get 2 of them (assuming you have enough gas, but I am quite certain people will find ways to get that gas)
so 2v2ers now need to be afraid of 6minute cloaked banshees, 2 of them, plus 1 normal banshee.
some analysis: after this rush has been accomplished, each player will be left with: protoss: 1 gateway, 1 cybercore, 1 robo + whatever zealots he perhaps might have afforded terran: 1 barracks, 1 factory, 1 starport, 1 techlab + whatever marines and hellions he might have afforded
this is not difficult to transition out of, as long as both players have kept up in economy reasonibly well, they are not actually behind the opponents in any way except for the fact they have 550/500 resources tied up in banshees, which are supposed to pay for themselves through doing damage, if necessary the cloaked ones can defend resonibly well, assuming the opponents have not saved up for a scan or two.
and you can do pretty much whatever you want from this position (stargate play might be difficult) the terran has its 1/1/1 setup, and the protoss can choose how many gateways it wants to add, both players can also choose to expand if they want to.
On October 25 2011 00:49 TrueRedemption wrote: They said you can replicate a worker currently, but if it becomes a problem they'll fix it.
Replicating your own units seems like a more interesting concept personally, you can adjust your own composition just prior to an engagement. Replicating any of opponents units seems a tad counter intuitive personally. Essentially by replicating one of their units you're simply saying I'm going to do what you are doing, but better. If a terran is going tanks TvP they already are playing the positional game, why do you want to replicate a tank to try and play their game back at them, especially considering you paid more for yours? Obviously the replicant would be quite useful for stopping tech based timing plays such as the 1-1-1, but in the current state of the game there are very few units ZvP and TvP which would justify replication. You aren't going to get a siege tank to replicate if your opponent is going bio, yet bio is what it would be most useful against.
I am unsure of the cost of a tempest, but currently the most intriguing part of this unit to me would be the ability for protoss to raise their food cap. Why not replicate a 300/200 6 food colossus, you're only paying 200/200 4 food? If you're going for a timing attack the replicant will likely have a faster build time, and you can save the 200/200 you would've put into thermal lance and instead attack with one 6 range colossus and three 9 range replicants. Alternatively for every replicated colossus in the death ball you can throw in an additional stalker, making your 200/200 that much more powerful. Its only a tiny advantage compared to standard, but considering what the other races were getting protoss are going to need all the help they can get.
I think stopping the 1-1-1 is one of the biggest factors this unit has. Replicating a medivac to heal (properly heal beyond shield regeneration, I mean) will probably also be popular, as well as ghosts/infestors and SCVs, primarily to repair the mechanical much more than trying to follow the Terran tech tree.
LOL you realize that medivacs are only able to heal biological units? Secondly, a medivac is 100/100, whereas replicants are 200/200
On October 25 2011 00:49 TrueRedemption wrote: They said you can replicate a worker currently, but if it becomes a problem they'll fix it.
Replicating your own units seems like a more interesting concept personally, you can adjust your own composition just prior to an engagement. Replicating any of opponents units seems a tad counter intuitive personally. Essentially by replicating one of their units you're simply saying I'm going to do what you are doing, but better. If a terran is going tanks TvP they already are playing the positional game, why do you want to replicate a tank to try and play their game back at them, especially considering you paid more for yours? Obviously the replicant would be quite useful for stopping tech based timing plays such as the 1-1-1, but in the current state of the game there are very few units ZvP and TvP which would justify replication. You aren't going to get a siege tank to replicate if your opponent is going bio, yet bio is what it would be most useful against.
I am unsure of the cost of a tempest, but currently the most intriguing part of this unit to me would be the ability for protoss to raise their food cap. Why not replicate a 300/200 6 food colossus, you're only paying 200/200 4 food? If you're going for a timing attack the replicant will likely have a faster build time, and you can save the 200/200 you would've put into thermal lance and instead attack with one 6 range colossus and three 9 range replicants. Alternatively for every replicated colossus in the death ball you can throw in an additional stalker, making your 200/200 that much more powerful. Its only a tiny advantage compared to standard, but considering what the other races were getting protoss are going to need all the help they can get.
I think stopping the 1-1-1 is one of the biggest factors this unit has. Replicating a medivac to heal (properly heal beyond shield regeneration, I mean) will probably also be popular, as well as ghosts/infestors and SCVs, primarily to repair the mechanical much more than trying to follow the Terran tech tree.
LOL you realize that medivacs are only able to heal biological units? Secondly, a medivac is 100/100, whereas replicants are 200/200
nothing wrong with paying 200/200 for a medivac (though i admit, not too many things it can heal), considering the flexibility that you're paying for and access to units you would otherwise never use.
The most fantastic job of replicators is being able to assess ALL abilities. This can allow some fantastic timings such as opponent has ghosts but hasnt started cloaking -> you replicate, cloak, and snipe all his ghosts.
It also can smooth out the transition from colossi to HT. Think about this: You go through robo tech, build colossi, they get destroyed. You're switching to Templars now and you build several replicants out of your robo while the building is coming in. you pop out the FIRST templar, and you instantly have access to storm while storm is researching.
A very, very smooth transition (albeit perhaps gas heavy) from colossi -> HT w/ replicated psistorm -> HT w/ psistorm
What I think needs to happen to raise the value of replicators is to give more researchable abilities to the later tech protoss units, such as immortals, voidrays, and so forth. This allows a choice of going replicants for instant ability access (with a generally higher cost) or being economical and going the traditional route.
On October 25 2011 00:49 TrueRedemption wrote: They said you can replicate a worker currently, but if it becomes a problem they'll fix it.
Replicating your own units seems like a more interesting concept personally, you can adjust your own composition just prior to an engagement. Replicating any of opponents units seems a tad counter intuitive personally. Essentially by replicating one of their units you're simply saying I'm going to do what you are doing, but better. If a terran is going tanks TvP they already are playing the positional game, why do you want to replicate a tank to try and play their game back at them, especially considering you paid more for yours? Obviously the replicant would be quite useful for stopping tech based timing plays such as the 1-1-1, but in the current state of the game there are very few units ZvP and TvP which would justify replication. You aren't going to get a siege tank to replicate if your opponent is going bio, yet bio is what it would be most useful against.
I am unsure of the cost of a tempest, but currently the most intriguing part of this unit to me would be the ability for protoss to raise their food cap. Why not replicate a 300/200 6 food colossus, you're only paying 200/200 4 food? If you're going for a timing attack the replicant will likely have a faster build time, and you can save the 200/200 you would've put into thermal lance and instead attack with one 6 range colossus and three 9 range replicants. Alternatively for every replicated colossus in the death ball you can throw in an additional stalker, making your 200/200 that much more powerful. Its only a tiny advantage compared to standard, but considering what the other races were getting protoss are going to need all the help they can get.
I think stopping the 1-1-1 is one of the biggest factors this unit has. Replicating a medivac to heal (properly heal beyond shield regeneration, I mean) will probably also be popular, as well as ghosts/infestors and SCVs, primarily to repair the mechanical much more than trying to follow the Terran tech tree.
LOL you realize that medivacs are only able to heal biological units? Secondly, a medivac is 100/100, whereas replicants are 200/200
nothing wrong with paying 200/200 for a medivac (though i admit, not too many things it can heal), considering the flexibility that you're paying for and access to units you would otherwise never use.
The most fantastic job of replicators is being able to assess ALL abilities. This can allow some fantastic timings such as opponent has ghosts but hasnt started cloaking -> you replicate, cloak, and snipe all his ghosts.
It also can smooth out the transition from colossi to HT. Think about this: You go through robo tech, build colossi, they get destroyed. You're switching to Templars now and you build several replicants out of your robo while the building is coming in. you pop out the FIRST templar, and you instantly have access to storm while storm is researching.
A very, very smooth transition (albeit perhaps gas heavy) from colossi -> HT w/ replicated psistorm -> HT w/ psistorm
What I think needs to happen to raise the value of replicators is to give more researchable abilities to the later tech protoss units, such as immortals, voidrays, and so forth. This allows a choice of going replicants for instant ability access (with a generally higher cost) or being economical and going the traditional route.
true, replicator will smooth out a lot of transitions, but this is only true if you open robo, so won't everyone open robo?
On October 25 2011 00:49 TrueRedemption wrote: They said you can replicate a worker currently, but if it becomes a problem they'll fix it.
Replicating your own units seems like a more interesting concept personally, you can adjust your own composition just prior to an engagement. Replicating any of opponents units seems a tad counter intuitive personally. Essentially by replicating one of their units you're simply saying I'm going to do what you are doing, but better. If a terran is going tanks TvP they already are playing the positional game, why do you want to replicate a tank to try and play their game back at them, especially considering you paid more for yours? Obviously the replicant would be quite useful for stopping tech based timing plays such as the 1-1-1, but in the current state of the game there are very few units ZvP and TvP which would justify replication. You aren't going to get a siege tank to replicate if your opponent is going bio, yet bio is what it would be most useful against.
I am unsure of the cost of a tempest, but currently the most intriguing part of this unit to me would be the ability for protoss to raise their food cap. Why not replicate a 300/200 6 food colossus, you're only paying 200/200 4 food? If you're going for a timing attack the replicant will likely have a faster build time, and you can save the 200/200 you would've put into thermal lance and instead attack with one 6 range colossus and three 9 range replicants. Alternatively for every replicated colossus in the death ball you can throw in an additional stalker, making your 200/200 that much more powerful. Its only a tiny advantage compared to standard, but considering what the other races were getting protoss are going to need all the help they can get.
I think stopping the 1-1-1 is one of the biggest factors this unit has. Replicating a medivac to heal (properly heal beyond shield regeneration, I mean) will probably also be popular, as well as ghosts/infestors and SCVs, primarily to repair the mechanical much more than trying to follow the Terran tech tree.
LOL you realize that medivacs are only able to heal biological units? Secondly, a medivac is 100/100, whereas replicants are 200/200
nothing wrong with paying 200/200 for a medivac (though i admit, not too many things it can heal), considering the flexibility that you're paying for and access to units you would otherwise never use.
The most fantastic job of replicators is being able to assess ALL abilities. This can allow some fantastic timings such as opponent has ghosts but hasnt started cloaking -> you replicate, cloak, and snipe all his ghosts.
It also can smooth out the transition from colossi to HT. Think about this: You go through robo tech, build colossi, they get destroyed. You're switching to Templars now and you build several replicants out of your robo while the building is coming in. you pop out the FIRST templar, and you instantly have access to storm while storm is researching.
A very, very smooth transition (albeit perhaps gas heavy) from colossi -> HT w/ replicated psistorm -> HT w/ psistorm
What I think needs to happen to raise the value of replicators is to give more researchable abilities to the later tech protoss units, such as immortals, voidrays, and so forth. This allows a choice of going replicants for instant ability access (with a generally higher cost) or being economical and going the traditional route.
true, replicator will smooth out a lot of transitions, but this is only true if you open robo, so won't everyone open robo?
Not necessarily but most people already open robo for the flexibility it provides. Observers are almost too important to skip.
On October 25 2011 00:49 TrueRedemption wrote: They said you can replicate a worker currently, but if it becomes a problem they'll fix it.
Replicating your own units seems like a more interesting concept personally, you can adjust your own composition just prior to an engagement. Replicating any of opponents units seems a tad counter intuitive personally. Essentially by replicating one of their units you're simply saying I'm going to do what you are doing, but better. If a terran is going tanks TvP they already are playing the positional game, why do you want to replicate a tank to try and play their game back at them, especially considering you paid more for yours? Obviously the replicant would be quite useful for stopping tech based timing plays such as the 1-1-1, but in the current state of the game there are very few units ZvP and TvP which would justify replication. You aren't going to get a siege tank to replicate if your opponent is going bio, yet bio is what it would be most useful against.
I am unsure of the cost of a tempest, but currently the most intriguing part of this unit to me would be the ability for protoss to raise their food cap. Why not replicate a 300/200 6 food colossus, you're only paying 200/200 4 food? If you're going for a timing attack the replicant will likely have a faster build time, and you can save the 200/200 you would've put into thermal lance and instead attack with one 6 range colossus and three 9 range replicants. Alternatively for every replicated colossus in the death ball you can throw in an additional stalker, making your 200/200 that much more powerful. Its only a tiny advantage compared to standard, but considering what the other races were getting protoss are going to need all the help they can get.
I think stopping the 1-1-1 is one of the biggest factors this unit has. Replicating a medivac to heal (properly heal beyond shield regeneration, I mean) will probably also be popular, as well as ghosts/infestors and SCVs, primarily to repair the mechanical much more than trying to follow the Terran tech tree.
LOL you realize that medivacs are only able to heal biological units? Secondly, a medivac is 100/100, whereas replicants are 200/200
nothing wrong with paying 200/200 for a medivac (though i admit, not too many things it can heal), considering the flexibility that you're paying for and access to units you would otherwise never use.
The most fantastic job of replicators is being able to assess ALL abilities. This can allow some fantastic timings such as opponent has ghosts but hasnt started cloaking -> you replicate, cloak, and snipe all his ghosts.
It also can smooth out the transition from colossi to HT. Think about this: You go through robo tech, build colossi, they get destroyed. You're switching to Templars now and you build several replicants out of your robo while the building is coming in. you pop out the FIRST templar, and you instantly have access to storm while storm is researching.
A very, very smooth transition (albeit perhaps gas heavy) from colossi -> HT w/ replicated psistorm -> HT w/ psistorm
What I think needs to happen to raise the value of replicators is to give more researchable abilities to the later tech protoss units, such as immortals, voidrays, and so forth. This allows a choice of going replicants for instant ability access (with a generally higher cost) or being economical and going the traditional route.
Ok firstly in regards to the guy you quoted, you can't replicate massive units! Why this is still not common knowledge is beyond me, but Blizzard already said it can't be done. Consequentially, you every single unit you can replicate is cheaper than the replicator itself.
Second, in relation to your point about tech switching, the concept is good but remember replicants cost money as well. The 'several replicants' you build (just say 3 of them) cost 600/600, therefore you are delaying your psi storm tech by 600min 600 gas. In the long run wouldn't you be better off just starting storm research that much earlier? (I'm assuming that you aren't a nub and floating 600 gas, hence by spending 600 gas you are delaying your storm research by 600 gas). I can see where it would be handy having 3 HT with full energy and storm in time for a particular push, but I think in most cases wasting the extra resources and delaying your storm research wouldn't be worth it.
On October 25 2011 00:49 TrueRedemption wrote: They said you can replicate a worker currently, but if it becomes a problem they'll fix it.
Replicating your own units seems like a more interesting concept personally, you can adjust your own composition just prior to an engagement. Replicating any of opponents units seems a tad counter intuitive personally. Essentially by replicating one of their units you're simply saying I'm going to do what you are doing, but better. If a terran is going tanks TvP they already are playing the positional game, why do you want to replicate a tank to try and play their game back at them, especially considering you paid more for yours? Obviously the replicant would be quite useful for stopping tech based timing plays such as the 1-1-1, but in the current state of the game there are very few units ZvP and TvP which would justify replication. You aren't going to get a siege tank to replicate if your opponent is going bio, yet bio is what it would be most useful against.
I am unsure of the cost of a tempest, but currently the most intriguing part of this unit to me would be the ability for protoss to raise their food cap. Why not replicate a 300/200 6 food colossus, you're only paying 200/200 4 food? If you're going for a timing attack the replicant will likely have a faster build time, and you can save the 200/200 you would've put into thermal lance and instead attack with one 6 range colossus and three 9 range replicants. Alternatively for every replicated colossus in the death ball you can throw in an additional stalker, making your 200/200 that much more powerful. Its only a tiny advantage compared to standard, but considering what the other races were getting protoss are going to need all the help they can get.
I think stopping the 1-1-1 is one of the biggest factors this unit has. Replicating a medivac to heal (properly heal beyond shield regeneration, I mean) will probably also be popular, as well as ghosts/infestors and SCVs, primarily to repair the mechanical much more than trying to follow the Terran tech tree.
LOL you realize that medivacs are only able to heal biological units? Secondly, a medivac is 100/100, whereas replicants are 200/200
nothing wrong with paying 200/200 for a medivac (though i admit, not too many things it can heal), considering the flexibility that you're paying for and access to units you would otherwise never use.
The most fantastic job of replicators is being able to assess ALL abilities. This can allow some fantastic timings such as opponent has ghosts but hasnt started cloaking -> you replicate, cloak, and snipe all his ghosts.
It also can smooth out the transition from colossi to HT. Think about this: You go through robo tech, build colossi, they get destroyed. You're switching to Templars now and you build several replicants out of your robo while the building is coming in. you pop out the FIRST templar, and you instantly have access to storm while storm is researching.
A very, very smooth transition (albeit perhaps gas heavy) from colossi -> HT w/ replicated psistorm -> HT w/ psistorm
What I think needs to happen to raise the value of replicators is to give more researchable abilities to the later tech protoss units, such as immortals, voidrays, and so forth. This allows a choice of going replicants for instant ability access (with a generally higher cost) or being economical and going the traditional route.
Ok firstly in regards to the guy you quoted, you can't replicate massive units! Why this is still not common knowledge is beyond me, but Blizzard already said it can't be done. Consequentially, you every single unit you can replicate is cheaper than the replicator itself.
Second, in relation to your point about tech switching, the concept is good but remember replicants cost money as well. The 'several replicants' you build (just say 3 of them) cost 600/600, therefore you are delaying your psi storm tech by 600min 600 gas. In the long run wouldn't you be better off just starting storm research that much earlier? (I'm assuming that you aren't a nub and floating 600 gas, hence by spending 600 gas you are delaying your storm research by 600 gas). I can see where it would be handy having 3 HT with full energy and storm in time for a particular push, but I think in most cases wasting the extra resources and delaying your storm research wouldn't be worth it.
You aren't always in a situation where you can wait for storm research or templar energy (if for example a push is on its way). Wouldn't it then be practical to have the alternative of chronoing out a few replicants (their buildtime is really short) and copying an high templar?
1) Never produce Shredders in TvP (That'd be a nice unit to land inside your mineral line) 2) Reluctantly or Do not Produce Ravens (Imagine mass Collosi with 5 PDDs to nullify the only counter, mass viking) 3) 1-1-1 is no longer viable 4) Early mech is no longer viable (Toss can replicate and seige your base before you have seige tech) 5) Banshee openings versus Toss would result in your death (the normal 4 marines in bunker could EASILY be microed against and killed, ESPECIALLY with cloak). 6) Toss will replicate marines late game and troll you by dancing with them 7) This unit is silly
Ultimately this unit is going to limit and simplify the match up even more than it is now. Terran will only produce a few units so as to avoid other units being replicated. Bring back the Dark Archon. Mind control with 400 food armies leaves MUCH to be desired.
The test will be if you can replicate replicates. That would be great, vT get one repicate medivac, then you can produce medivacs for 200/200. Ravens will be huge because we as toss would get hunter seeker missile without having to build fusion core, not to mention PDD being super good against bio. If this can happen, I'm completely ok with this unit. This and the oracle have so many different on-the-fly tricks they can do I think it will make protoss a tremendously dynamic race that relies heavily on quick thinking and harass which would be awesome.
No point in replicating an Infestor to NP. NP you get 2 seconds of control over the unit. Replicate: you get the unit.
Replicating Ghosts can be nice, maybe Banshees for Cloak. Rep Infestor for Fungal Growth+Psystorm-awesome-mega-nerd-rage!
It will however make Colossi useless in PvP as you can get the Colossi for 100 Minerals less with free range-Upgrade
Replicate Raven(s) to use PDDs against Marauders/Vikings
I would love to replicate Queens just to help spread Creep and vomit on my Nexi(not helping or anything, it would simply look funny)
What I just thought: Replicate an SCV - build a CC - build more SCVs. This is generally a slightly more expensive main(200/200 for replicator) and then... wait for it ... ... kepp waiting! ... .. ... you can: REPAIR!!!!!!!!!!!! Repairing my Colossi and stalker after battles would be quite funny and maybe worth the cost in long games.
I mean you have to expand anyways, right?
Yeah in all honesty I wish they would just change every unit Protoss gets completely.
I want unique awesome Units that are useful in a couple of ways. Not units of my opponent!
On October 27 2011 01:12 zmansman17 wrote: All the Replicant means to Terran:
1) Never produce Shredders in TvP (That'd be a nice unit to land inside your mineral line) 2) Reluctantly or Do not Produce Ravens (Imagine mass Collosi with 5 PDDs to nullify the only counter, mass viking) 3) 1-1-1 is no longer viable 4) Early mech is no longer viable (Toss can replicate and seige your base before you have seige tech) 5) Banshee openings versus Toss would result in your death (the normal 4 marines in bunker could EASILY be microed against and killed, ESPECIALLY with cloak). 6) Toss will replicate marines late game and troll you by dancing with them 7) This unit is silly
Ultimately this unit is going to limit and simplify the match up even more than it is now. Terran will only produce a few units so as to avoid other units being replicated. Bring back the Dark Archon. Mind control with 400 food armies leaves MUCH to be desired.
Point 6 and 7 made me lol
Well Shredders take 8 seconds to transform, they will not be used as harras units. I pretty much agree with the rest. I think it is a stupid unit that shall not pass!
On October 27 2011 01:12 zmansman17 wrote: All the Replicant means to Terran:
1) Never produce Shredders in TvP (That'd be a nice unit to land inside your mineral line) 2) Reluctantly or Do not Produce Ravens (Imagine mass Collosi with 5 PDDs to nullify the only counter, mass viking) 3) 1-1-1 is no longer viable 4) Early mech is no longer viable (Toss can replicate and seige your base before you have seige tech) 5) Banshee openings versus Toss would result in your death (the normal 4 marines in bunker could EASILY be microed against and killed, ESPECIALLY with cloak). 6) Toss will replicate marines late game and troll you by dancing with them 7) This unit is silly
Ultimately this unit is going to limit and simplify the match up even more than it is now. Terran will only produce a few units so as to avoid other units being replicated. Bring back the Dark Archon. Mind control with 400 food armies leaves MUCH to be desired.
(5) is an interesting point, it basically makes it critical to shut down the observer in HotS. In WoL, getting scouted early meant your built could be countered, with the replicant ... It would most definitely be countered.
Allowing Protoss to Replicate is "Okay" but Not Like This. Should be like a full nexus' energy (+ some cost perhaps), and produce slowly out of the nexus. Maybe the units are like 75% the cost and strength of the real thing and upgrades are too.
actually there are some strange things in my head... terran goes ghosts, u replicate one of them have cloak alrdy and run in and emp ur opponents ghosts and than attack. HT/DT/Collosi in PvP. Actually in the 1/1/1 build i would rather take a banshee than tanks... coz u have cloak alrdy. Or u clone the tank right when the first pops out and siege ur opponent before he can even attack or expand. PvZ Infestors, and Viper maybe even the Ultralisk... actually in general u will looking for spellcasters cause thats the most viable thing to do. Would be interesting to know if u loose the clone or can reclone another unit... and of coz ravens in PvT
The replicant's existence will force any non bio strategy to be completely obselete (except sky Terran), and so I don't think they will be used all that much, unless of course Protoss Mules make the race amazing.
Replicant is a great concept, but I feel like it opens too many possibilities and it will be almost impossible to balance the game. Raven, for example, is too good to have in the P arsenal and costs just 100 minerals more, but already with SM researched. If they decide to keep it in the game it can have the reaper fate.
On October 27 2011 01:12 zmansman17 wrote: All the Replicant means to Terran:
1) Never produce Shredders in TvP (That'd be a nice unit to land inside your mineral line) 2) Reluctantly or Do not Produce Ravens (Imagine mass Collosi with 5 PDDs to nullify the only counter, mass viking) 3) 1-1-1 is no longer viable 4) Early mech is no longer viable (Toss can replicate and seige your base before you have seige tech) 5) Banshee openings versus Toss would result in your death (the normal 4 marines in bunker could EASILY be microed against and killed, ESPECIALLY with cloak). 6) Toss will replicate marines late game and troll you by dancing with them 7) This unit is silly
Ultimately this unit is going to limit and simplify the match up even more than it is now. Terran will only produce a few units so as to avoid other units being replicated. Bring back the Dark Archon. Mind control with 400 food armies leaves MUCH to be desired.
Point 6 and 7 made me lol
Well Shredders take 8 seconds to transform, they will not be used as harras units. I pretty much agree with the rest. I think it is a stupid unit that shall not pass!
Edit: nice double post, sorry..
Even if it would be cool for protoss to actually have the best unit around for a change, I don't think the replicator will make it as it is right now. Probably a big production time increase or not having max energy when replicating a unit. Maybe even both.
Having a real counter to 111 would be too sweet.
As said, I don't think you can balance it on both 1vs1 and team games. A few cloak banshees before the upgrade gets started is too strong of a rush.
On October 27 2011 20:53 akaMadMike wrote: I will use my infestor to take control over your replicator and make the most expensive zergling ever.
I'm fairly certain any good player will have already replicated when the battle begins. But i'm going to replicate 2 infestors, burrow-move them next to your infestors and make those bitches pay.
Honestly, i'd love to replicate medivac as a complement to my zealots.
I can't imagine PvZ turning into a "Drag-the-Viper" battle, if you decide to replicate Vipers. Would be fucking hilarious to see stuff being zoomed about.
On October 27 2011 20:53 akaMadMike wrote: I will use my infestor to take control over your replicator and make the most expensive zergling ever.
I'm fairly certain any good player will have already replicated when the battle begins. But i'm going to replicate 2 infestors, burrow-move them next to your infestors and make those bitches pay.
Honestly, i'd love to replicate medivac as a complement to my zealots.
I beg to differ, a good player would keep his wild card "wild" instead of committing too early to a strategy, as the replication is permanent. No use replicating infestors if the Z is planning to transition from sling/infestor into mass 3/3 roach.
On October 27 2011 15:02 Techno wrote: Ravens With Seeker Missle For WAY Cheaper.
Allowing Protoss to Replicate is "Okay" but Not Like This. Should be like a full nexus' energy (+ some cost perhaps), and produce slowly out of the nexus. Maybe the units are like 75% the cost and strength of the real thing and upgrades are too.
Yes, Getting the Raven and unlocking all of its abilities (not to mention the complete comp-ability with Toss army) is Insane.
I'm still yet to hear how a Terran beats 5 PDDs and mass collosi outisde the Terran base. Vikings are nullified and I can't think of anything Terran can do (the viking is literally the only unit that counters the Collosi and 5 PDDs would eliminate all viking fire for some time.
Do what a toss has to do. Walk outside PDD range. Terran PDD nullifies Stalker, leaving the only DMg output to Colossi and Zealots. Protoss PDD nullifies Vikings, leaving the only DMG output to MMG and Tanks. Seems fair.
On October 27 2011 01:12 zmansman17 wrote: All the Replicant means to Terran:
1) Never produce Shredders in TvP (That'd be a nice unit to land inside your mineral line) 2) Reluctantly or Do not Produce Ravens (Imagine mass Collosi with 5 PDDs to nullify the only counter, mass viking) 3) 1-1-1 is no longer viable 4) Early mech is no longer viable (Toss can replicate and seige your base before you have seige tech) 5) Banshee openings versus Toss would result in your death (the normal 4 marines in bunker could EASILY be microed against and killed, ESPECIALLY with cloak). 6) Toss will replicate marines late game and troll you by dancing with them 7) This unit is silly
Ultimately this unit is going to limit and simplify the match up even more than it is now. Terran will only produce a few units so as to avoid other units being replicated. Bring back the Dark Archon. Mind control with 400 food armies leaves MUCH to be desired.
Point 6 and 7 made me lol
Well Shredders take 8 seconds to transform, they will not be used as harras units. I pretty much agree with the rest. I think it is a stupid unit that shall not pass!
Edit: nice double post, sorry..
Even if it would be cool for protoss to actually have the best unit around for a change, I don't think the replicator will make it as it is right now. Probably a big production time increase or not having max energy when replicating a unit. Maybe even both.
Having a real counter to 111 would be too sweet.
As said, I don't think you can balance it on both 1vs1 and team games. A few cloak banshees before the upgrade gets started is too strong of a rush.
I'm pretty sure they will lose the max energy when replicating a unit. (to really nerf it have them start at 0 energy)
And they probably won't have any of the Armor/Weapon upgrades (so your tanks may have siege, but they are 0/0.. and will stay that way)
Another possibility is a slight cost bump. (either minerals and/or gas to~225-250)
..or have them require the Support Bay (if they are T3 then they won't shut down early rushes...ie you Might have a replicater before a Terran has early cloaked banshees but not sieged tanks)
Or give them a limited "replicating" range.. not just vision (possibly with an upgrade at the RSB allowing replicating any visible unit)
On October 24 2011 23:58 VTPerfect wrote: To be perfectly honest I think the best use of this unit is in conjunction with some sort of 2 base warp prism harass. the harass hopefully does some damage but the important part is gaining vision of your terran opponents SCV, using the Replicator to morph into an SCV and then gain access to quasi fixes to the real problems with Protoss IE producing ghosts to emp their ghosts, medivacs cuz your units can't heal, vikings cause you don't have an Air to Air armor bonus unit etc etc etc.
I still think this is awful cause at this point your not playing Protoss your plating Proran and Prozerg and i didnt pick Protoss to use Ran and Zerg units but its pretty much ur best bet.
Actually you just want to produce mass scvs... because SCVs can heal mechanical units so you can pair 2 per stalker and 4 per colossus.
On October 27 2011 15:02 Techno wrote: Ravens With Seeker Missle For WAY Cheaper.
Allowing Protoss to Replicate is "Okay" but Not Like This. Should be like a full nexus' energy (+ some cost perhaps), and produce slowly out of the nexus. Maybe the units are like 75% the cost and strength of the real thing and upgrades are too.
Yes, Getting the Raven and unlocking all of its abilities (not to mention the complete comp-ability with Toss army) is Insane.
I'm still yet to hear how a Terran beats 5 PDDs and mass collosi outisde the Terran base. Vikings are nullified and I can't think of anything Terran can do (the viking is literally the only unit that counters the Collosi and 5 PDDs would eliminate all viking fire for some time.
You could either EMP the Ravens/PDD:s or just not engage where they were cast.
On October 24 2011 23:58 VTPerfect wrote: To be perfectly honest I think the best use of this unit is in conjunction with some sort of 2 base warp prism harass. the harass hopefully does some damage but the important part is gaining vision of your terran opponents SCV, using the Replicator to morph into an SCV and then gain access to quasi fixes to the real problems with Protoss IE producing ghosts to emp their ghosts, medivacs cuz your units can't heal, vikings cause you don't have an Air to Air armor bonus unit etc etc etc.
I still think this is awful cause at this point your not playing Protoss your plating Proran and Prozerg and i didnt pick Protoss to use Ran and Zerg units but its pretty much ur best bet.
shouldnt u be getting ur ass kicked by pokebunny instead of whining about an awesome unit ability you havent used yet?
I understand that this isnt directly contributing to the forum topic, but what SoTG said about the replicant did seem very true, that it would become a matter of terran/Zerg players having to be so alert for protoss to not spot their powerful units.
As a response to this I thinking (Tell me if this idea is completely flawed and retarded but): 1) There is a large range on the replication ability, just so you cannot replicate a unit on the other side of the map, maybe something around 28 range. 2) Replication needs to be pressed like other spells, and then clicked onto the unit you with to replicate (probably already the plan for how it works) but when one replicates a unit, the replicant becomes that unit for x amount of time, say 60 seconds, after which it becomes a replicant again.
I think this seems alot better than the ideas of unlimited range and having the replicant permanently morphed.
And yes im aware blizzard haven't even started trying to balance the new units yet, just asking what people think
1) that is an insane nerf. Because not only does it make impossible to do a observer > replicate SCV > CC FE, pushing back the tech steal into a 3rd or 4th base; it also makes the act of replicating too time and micro intensive for something that is already so expensive.
From its present form, an observer out in their base is all that is required to start replicating their units (ST/medivac/viper/infestor). Your suggestion would need to the player haul out their replicator to the centre of the map to get in range, the counter would be to have sling/hellions out to snipe the replicator before they are in range to replicate their target.
Ergo, with such high micro requirements in addition to its cost (200m/200g 4s for a medivac) There becomes little incentive to use replicants except to clone your own units for clutch defense. Replicating when the attack begins as the only opportunity to replicate (within range) is too little too late as there's little use of replicated banshees when they're already in your base. You might as well spend the resources on chronoing out another stalker.
2) is a massive buff, not a nerf, every minute you get a "new" unit, replicated medivac returns before timer runs out then turns into an immortal for the impending counter-attack consisting of Medivac/marauder? After MP is spent, timer runs out, you get to replicate the DTs you just warped in for a prism drop then once they return, timer runs out, replicate blink stalker since 3/3/1 just completed. How is this a nerf? Come on... As a nerf, who'd want to build replicators as below diamond very few people have the APM to keep a tab on their replication timer while fending off/executing attacks with their current units, macroing and microing. Might as well not build them at all.
We had mind control in BW, don't see how it's "terrible game design" to have the ability to steal enemy units at a cost. Some of the best PvZs I've seen involved DAs, so as long as they make sure the unit is balanced I have no problems with it.
I want this unit to work. If they can make it balanced and make it so that it is seen in real games and not just in fun / showmatch games, I think it would spice up the game.
The replicant is 2 supply right? In the very late game, where u got a ton of resources banked.. Make 3-4 robo's, make 1 immortal, rest replicants. Ull save 2 supply per imortal ^^.
I just dont understand why The Replicants get upgraded units even if the target dont have the upgrades.. This is seeeems so op to me espacially when you look at key upgrades. Siege, Cloak for banshees, all the fricking raven upgrades, infestor and viper upgrades etc...
in my opinion they should just mirror the upgraes and if your opponent adds more they will mirror them too if units are still alive.
On October 29 2011 00:22 ITSbouli wrote: The replicant is 2 supply right? In the very late game, where u got a ton of resources banked.. Make 3-4 robo's, make 1 immortal, rest replicants. Ull save 2 supply per imortal ^^.
No 4 supply.
The only thing you can save is 50 minerals on a Void Ray (but you pay 50 more gas.)
On October 24 2011 23:58 VTPerfect wrote: To be perfectly honest I think the best use of this unit is in conjunction with some sort of 2 base warp prism harass. the harass hopefully does some damage but the important part is gaining vision of your terran opponents SCV, using the Replicator to morph into an SCV and then gain access to quasi fixes to the real problems with Protoss IE producing ghosts to emp their ghosts, medivacs cuz your units can't heal, vikings cause you don't have an Air to Air armor bonus unit etc etc etc.
I still think this is awful cause at this point your not playing Protoss your plating Proran and Prozerg and i didnt pick Protoss to use Ran and Zerg units but its pretty much ur best bet.
Perfect thanks for saying what alot of protoss players are thinking. I don't want to use the replicant either because i'd rather have protoss units.
On October 29 2011 00:22 ITSbouli wrote: The replicant is 2 supply right? In the very late game, where u got a ton of resources banked.. Make 3-4 robo's, make 1 immortal, rest replicants. Ull save 2 supply per imortal ^^.
On October 29 2011 00:47 EaryKing wrote: I will not play protoss just to become terran or zerg. I might as well just play terran or zerg.
Out of curiosity--did you feel like Dark Archons compromised the integrity of the Protoss in BW? It's not like this is unprecedented or anything.
Also, some things I remember about replicants from Blizzcon:
They're 4 food, not 2.
You can clone workers, and you can build things with those workers.
This is in response to some other things I read in the thread, and I hope they're not redundant and/or that they help. I'm at a different convention now and in a bit of a hurry.
1) Copying tanks that are already in siege mode to instantly have a few tanks in siege mode where you need them
2) Copying Ghosts for EMP
3) The big one, copying an SCV, making all bases orbitals so you have amazing detection, Marauder base snipe immunity, MULEs, and you can replace all but a few probes with SCVs since they can still return money to Nexuses and mine from Assimilators, but also can repair your units. Mass repair Colossi that only die if Vikings get through their HP in one volley, anyone? Literally the only downside to making SCVs over probes is that SCVs can't make Protoss buildings, so you'll still need a few probes per base.
4) Copying Infestors for Fungal if Zerg ends up having Infestors and Mutalisks on the map at the same time.
I really think that the replicate ability should have like a 1 minute cooldown so it could transform into a new unit every 1 minute. Currently the unit seems pretty useless to me.
On October 29 2011 01:07 RoKetha wrote: I'm just gonna go with the following:
1) Copying tanks that are already in siege mode to instantly have a few tanks in siege mode where you need them
2) Copying Ghosts for EMP
3) The big one, copying an SCV, making all bases orbitals so you have amazing detection, Marauder base snipe immunity, MULEs, and you can replace all but a few probes with SCVs since they can still return money to Nexuses and mine from Assimilators, but also can repair your units. Mass repair Colossi that only die if Vikings get through their HP in one volley, anyone? Literally the only downside to making SCVs over probes is that SCVs can't make Protoss buildings, so you'll still need a few probes per base.
4) Copying Infestors for Fungal if Zerg ends up having Infestors and Mutalisks on the map at the same time.
Will probes mine at an orbital command, or will they only return money to a nexus?
I see this talk of copying an SCV and then from then on only making SCVs and Orbtials instead of Nexi and probes (and more?) and it just feels off to me. It's TvP, not Tv(some wierd Protoss/Terran hybrid) :/
On October 29 2011 01:56 Exactable wrote: I see this talk of copying an SCV and then from then on only making SCVs and Orbtials instead of Nexi and probes (and more?) and it just feels off to me. It's TvP, not Tv(some wierd Protoss/Terran hybrid) :/
I don't think that'll happen anymore than it did with neural parasited workers. 400 for the CC, 100 for the depot, then 150 for the barracks, in addition to the cost of the replicant, robo, and anything needed to stay alive up until that point.
I want to copy Shredders, to do Sentry+Shredder drops. This way the Terran won't be able to pull his SCVs away from the deploying shredder because of the forcefields.
On October 29 2011 02:02 supraWman wrote: I want to copy Shredders, to do Sentry+Shredder drops. This way the Terran won't be able to pull his SCVs away from the deploying shredder because of the forcefields.
........
Say what you will about the replicant, but it's encouraging some damn creative theorycrafting.
robo will be awesome against banshee harrass, replicate as soo a su see it and you have a cloacked banshee ready to rock his base (+ robo for your obs)
On October 29 2011 02:02 supraWman wrote: I want to copy Shredders, to do Sentry+Shredder drops. This way the Terran won't be able to pull his SCVs away from the deploying shredder because of the forcefields.
........
Say what you will about the replicant, but it's encouraging some damn creative theorycrafting.
On October 29 2011 01:56 Exactable wrote: I see this talk of copying an SCV and then from then on only making SCVs and Orbtials instead of Nexi and probes (and more?) and it just feels off to me. It's TvP, not Tv(some wierd Protoss/Terran hybrid) :/
If that is possible, that is probably the best way to play, and every top level protoss will start doing it. 200/200 sunk cost for the scv, then just make the orbital as your 3rd. Mules break even pretty soon. With only the 200/200 sunk cost from before, you have access to the entire terran tech tree. Whatever op terran tricks have raped you in the past, you now have access to. Scan at your leisure... Planetary at the gold... Siege tanks.... Sweeeet.
On October 29 2011 01:56 Exactable wrote: I see this talk of copying an SCV and then from then on only making SCVs and Orbtials instead of Nexi and probes (and more?) and it just feels off to me. It's TvP, not Tv(some wierd Protoss/Terran hybrid) :/
I don't think that'll happen anymore than it did with neural parasited workers. 400 for the CC, 100 for the depot, then 150 for the barracks, in addition to the cost of the replicant, robo, and anything needed to stay alive up until that point.
There's a pretty significant difference. NP'd workers are only yours for a handful of seconds, nowhere near long enough to build an expansion where you please. As for the cost of the expansion, here's a counterargument:
200/200 for the Replicant 0 for the CC (you were expanding anyway, this actually gives you more supply) 0 for the Depot (you need Pylons anyway, this actually gives you more supply) 150 for the Barracks 150 for the OC upgrade
And then you have access to MULEs and Scans for the rest of the game. Would you do this to expand to your natural? Hell no, not unless you're crazy, stupid, or a GM player messing around in Bronze. Simply too much investment for that point in the game. Would it be possible to get a third this way? On some maps, it seems pretty reasonable. A player with really solid mechanics who scouts more passive play from Terran might be able to do it on TDA, for example. I think that the main area where it'll shine is when getting the fourth or fifth base up. Another good effect of it is that it allows for the Protoss to get out Tanks, securing the map much, much better and forcing mech or air play out of Terran (Tanks with Zealot meat shields will do ridiculous damage to bioballs and be almost completely immune to EMP). While this certainly won't affect every game, I think that expanding with an OC to the third or fourth base could make the Protoss mid/late game much stronger against Terran.
On October 29 2011 02:40 NoodleFish wrote: Hmmmm... if you replicate a MULE will it last forever? Think about it... insane mining speeds!
And if you decide to replicate an SCV, can you chronoboost your Terran structures?
My personal opinion is that this unit will break the game :-/ We have yet to find out.
I hope not, because I sure hate to accidentially replicate an auto-turret or a hallucination (do no damage, can you imagine replicating their HT and finding out you spent 200/200 4s on a hallucination?!) or worse a broodling... Either way blizzard should not allow replicating summoned units.
On October 29 2011 02:40 NoodleFish wrote: Hmmmm... if you replicate a MULE will it last forever? Think about it... insane mining speeds!
And if you decide to replicate an SCV, can you chronoboost your Terran structures?
My personal opinion is that this unit will break the game :-/ We have yet to find out.
Mules mine exatcly 4 times as fast as probes. I dont think I would use my robo build time on a unit that is equal to 4 probes in pop, mineral cost and mining speed, but cost 200 gas.
1) Dark Archons would survive to cast other spells (later on) or MC more units for you 2) Dark Archons were made when your DTs were already used and denied (by detection); Replicant has only one ability 3) Dark Archons could MC "Massive" units. More than one, BTW.
Yeah, so we have nerfed Mind Control here. The only potential buff comparing to MC is the range. If the range stays, it could be OP, if the range drops, it will suffer "reaper syndrome" maybe?
EDIT: oh. It can also be mid game OR late game. So there are three ways to balance it: cost, range and tier.
I could see replicating infestors just spelling absolute death for Zerg armies. Replicate 2-3 infestors in combination with high Templar and you have essentially almost a 120 damage aoe nuke available that Zerg can't avoid. Also infestors plus sentries would grant Protoss the ability to constantly keep zergs low range units from even getting close to Protoss deathballs
On October 29 2011 01:56 Exactable wrote: I see this talk of copying an SCV and then from then on only making SCVs and Orbtials instead of Nexi and probes (and more?) and it just feels off to me. It's TvP, not Tv(some wierd Protoss/Terran hybrid) :/
Yeah if this actually becomes a good way to play... That would actually be horrible.
Did miss where its mentioned that a replicated scv or drone can build from their own tech trees? I can't imagine that actually being implemented, it's too ridiculous. What is happening to this game>!?
On October 29 2011 04:10 Azerbaijan wrote: Did miss where its mentioned that a replicated scv or drone can build from their own tech trees? I can't imagine that actually being implemented, it's too ridiculous. What is happening to this game>!?
On October 29 2011 04:10 Azerbaijan wrote: Did miss where its mentioned that a replicated scv or drone can build from their own tech trees? I can't imagine that actually being implemented, it's too ridiculous. What is happening to this game>!?
You can mind control with dark archons in broodwar, but it sucks so it was never used. But hell why not create a unit which is entirely based on that horrible mechanic? Sounds like an awesome idea!
And to answer your question: Dustin Browder happened to this game.
On October 29 2011 04:10 Azerbaijan wrote: Did miss where its mentioned that a replicated scv or drone can build from their own tech trees? I can't imagine that actually being implemented, it's too ridiculous. What is happening to this game>!?
On October 29 2011 04:10 Azerbaijan wrote: Did miss where its mentioned that a replicated scv or drone can build from their own tech trees? I can't imagine that actually being implemented, it's too ridiculous. What is happening to this game>!?
The same that happened to BW?
Or with NP (although highly impractical, it could be done... with Terrans it would take multiple Infestors and just be playing around... with Protoss 1 Infestor... but the Nexus can't move somewhere safe.)
If we`re talking about the Dark Archon stealing an scv for zealot/tank recall nonsense I guess I can agree with you to an extent except that it was highly impractical and if you were dedicated to trolling hard enough to actually mind control an scv and get it to safety while managing to not lose the game you deserve to recall tanks. Same thing with NP, if you manage to NP a worker, immediately build a nexus/cc, keep it alive long enough to start building the tech tree without losing the game you probably deserve to do so no matter how impractical.
The replicator would be along the lines of "oh look I have vision of the scv's with an obs just chilling over the mineral line; cool terran tech tree here I come". Just a dumb mechanic. Might as well just pick terran before you hit find match.
On October 29 2011 04:10 Azerbaijan wrote: Did miss where its mentioned that a replicated scv or drone can build from their own tech trees? I can't imagine that actually being implemented, it's too ridiculous. What is happening to this game>!?
You can mind control with dark archons in broodwar, but it sucks so it was never used. But hell why not create a unit which is entirely based on that horrible mechanic? Sounds like an awesome idea!
And to answer your question: Dustin Browder happened to this game.
I wouldn't call the BW mechanic horrible. It is terribly impractical but my point is that in BW if you wanted your opponent's tech tree you had to work hard for it and it wasn't too unusual to see dark archons in BW progames even if they were for maelstrom and feedback most often. In HoTS they will be taking an impractical mechanic and making it ludicrous.
I wish Dustin Browder would just go back to C&C. He's making me very sad.
On October 29 2011 04:10 Azerbaijan wrote: Did miss where its mentioned that a replicated scv or drone can build from their own tech trees? I can't imagine that actually being implemented, it's too ridiculous. What is happening to this game>!?
The same that happened to BW?
Or with NP (although highly impractical, it could be done... with Terrans it would take multiple Infestors and just be playing around... with Protoss 1 Infestor... but the Nexus can't move somewhere safe.)
Well actually getting a DA, researching MC, waiting for a shuttle, waiting for energy, going over to your opponent's base, MCing an scv, picking it up, getting it back home safely, starting a Hatch or CC.. Thats a lot of fucking work. So it doesn't break the game.
This is a gateway unit (if I'm not mistaken) that you can warp in in like 3 seconds and it has unlimited range.......... so an invisible observer can stand at the edge of his base and spot an scv for the replicator to use. Its completely broken.
Its a cool idea, but just make it a lot harder to replicate a unit and it would work well.. things to change .. range (duh) make it expensive as hell or just higher up the tech tree (need both dt and ht buildings maybe?).. there are a bunch of things.. I'm not opposed to the idea, I just don't like the way its currently implemented. But it is alpha so whatevs.
On October 29 2011 04:28 Azerbaijan wrote: If we`re talking about the Dark Archon stealing an scv for zealot/tank recall nonsense I guess I can agree with you to an extent except that it was highly impractical and if you were dedicated to trolling hard enough to actually mind control an scv and get it to safety while managing to not lose the game you deserve to recall tanks. Same thing with NP, if you manage to NP a worker, immediately build a nexus/cc, keep it alive long enough to start building the tech tree without losing the game you probably deserve to do so no matter how impractical.
The replicator would be along the lines of "oh look I have vision of the scv's with an obs just chilling over the mineral line; cool terran tech tree here I come". Just a dumb mechanic. Might as well just pick terran before you hit find match.
On October 29 2011 04:10 Azerbaijan wrote: Did miss where its mentioned that a replicated scv or drone can build from their own tech trees? I can't imagine that actually being implemented, it's too ridiculous. What is happening to this game>!?
You can mind control with dark archons in broodwar, but it sucks so it was never used. But hell why not create a unit which is entirely based on that horrible mechanic? Sounds like an awesome idea!
And to answer your question: Dustin Browder happened to this game.
I wouldn't call the BW mechanic horrible. It is terribly impractical but my point is that in BW if you wanted your opponent's tech tree you had to work hard for it and it wasn't too unusual to see dark archons in BW progames even if they were for maelstrom and feedback most often. In HoTS they will be taking an impractical mechanic and making it ludicrous.
I wish Dustin Browder would just go back to C&C. He's making me very sad.
Mind control in BW is fine because it's just one ability on a cool spellcaster, as you said it had two other abilities that were actually good and then you had the mind control to BM
On October 29 2011 04:28 Azerbaijan wrote: If we`re talking about the Dark Archon stealing an scv for zealot/tank recall nonsense I guess I can agree with you to an extent except that it was highly impractical and if you were dedicated to trolling hard enough to actually mind control an scv and get it to safety while managing to not lose the game you deserve to recall tanks. Same thing with NP, if you manage to NP a worker, immediately build a nexus/cc, keep it alive long enough to start building the tech tree without losing the game you probably deserve to do so no matter how impractical.
The replicator would be along the lines of "oh look I have vision of the scv's with an obs just chilling over the mineral line; cool terran tech tree here I come". Just a dumb mechanic. Might as well just pick terran before you hit find match.
On October 29 2011 04:20 pezit wrote:
On October 29 2011 04:10 Azerbaijan wrote: Did miss where its mentioned that a replicated scv or drone can build from their own tech trees? I can't imagine that actually being implemented, it's too ridiculous. What is happening to this game>!?
You can mind control with dark archons in broodwar, but it sucks so it was never used. But hell why not create a unit which is entirely based on that horrible mechanic? Sounds like an awesome idea!
And to answer your question: Dustin Browder happened to this game.
I wouldn't call the BW mechanic horrible. It is terribly impractical but my point is that in BW if you wanted your opponent's tech tree you had to work hard for it and it wasn't too unusual to see dark archons in BW progames even if they were for maelstrom and feedback most often. In HoTS they will be taking an impractical mechanic and making it ludicrous.
I wish Dustin Browder would just go back to C&C. He's making me very sad.
Mind control in BW is fine because it's just one ability on a cool spellcaster, as you said it had two other abilities that were actually good and then you had the mind control to BM
No mind control is fine in BW because you had to work super hard to put yourself in a position where it was safe to attempt anything with it,BM or not. Then you had more work to actually do whatever it was that you planned to do.
The replicator is not fine because the entire idea of it is "i see you are having trouble against this certain terran strategy that would be easily countered by siege tanks. Here, now you have those siege tanks and hell, if thats not enough you`re only one more replicator away from the entire terran tech tree."
No one has talked about the possibility of replicating a drone. Replicate the drone --> Create a hatchery --> create more drones --> create a spawning pool --> make a queen --> now you can support mass zerglings with chronoboost and larva inject at the same time. Zergling with chrono boost will take 18 seconds to create and one single chrone boost could be shared on the entire hatchery.
On October 29 2011 04:56 McFeser wrote: No one has talked about the possibility of replicating a drone. Replicate the drone --> Create a hatchery --> create more drones --> create a spawning pool --> make a queen --> now you can support mass zerglings with chronoboost and larva inject at the same time. Zergling with chrono boost will take 18 seconds to create and one single chrone boost could be shared on the entire hatchery.
Thats just as ridiculous as replicating an scv and spamming OCs for mules. This is why I can't see this actually being implemented. Its either going to be completely useless because you will die trying pay for 2 tech trees or its going to be completely game breaking because you are going to end up with Protoss having chronoboost and inject larvae or mules.
i'm not sure if this has been said but i want to replicate medivacs for zealot medivac pushes, zealots are already tough if i could heal them they would be invincible
On October 29 2011 05:05 skindin wrote: i'm not sure if this has been said but i want to replicate medivacs for zealot medivac pushes, zealots are already tough if i could heal them they would be invincible
It's just not worth to pay 200/200 for a medivac, and if you think it is you're wrong. The only thing that MIGHT be worth it is caster units, and even then it will be highly situational and gimmicky.
Replicate an overlord and replicate queen, drop creep with overlord (which will have creep drop and speed right?) then lay creep tumor in overlord creep, or lay creep tumor in enemy zergs creep. Spread creep as protoss for map vision?
On October 29 2011 04:28 Azerbaijan wrote: If we`re talking about the Dark Archon stealing an scv for zealot/tank recall nonsense I guess I can agree with you to an extent except that it was highly impractical and if you were dedicated to trolling hard enough to actually mind control an scv and get it to safety while managing to not lose the game you deserve to recall tanks. Same thing with NP, if you manage to NP a worker, immediately build a nexus/cc, keep it alive long enough to start building the tech tree without losing the game you probably deserve to do so no matter how impractical.
On October 29 2011 04:56 McFeser wrote: No one has talked about the possibility of replicating a drone. Replicate the drone --> Create a hatchery --> create more drones --> create a spawning pool --> make a queen --> now you can support mass zerglings with chronoboost and larva inject at the same time. Zergling with chrono boost will take 18 seconds to create and one single chrone boost could be shared on the entire hatchery.
Thats just as ridiculous as replicating an scv and spamming OCs for mules. This is why I can't see this actually being implemented. Its either going to be completely useless because you will die trying pay for 2 tech trees or its going to be completely game breaking because you are going to end up with Protoss having chronoboost and inject larvae or mules.
It is just completely ridiculous.
Yeah, I don't like it either just based on the principle of having filthy zerg in my Protoss deathball.
On October 29 2011 04:28 Azerbaijan wrote: If we`re talking about the Dark Archon stealing an scv for zealot/tank recall nonsense I guess I can agree with you to an extent except that it was highly impractical and if you were dedicated to trolling hard enough to actually mind control an scv and get it to safety while managing to not lose the game you deserve to recall tanks. Same thing with NP, if you manage to NP a worker, immediately build a nexus/cc, keep it alive long enough to start building the tech tree without losing the game you probably deserve to do so no matter how impractical.
I agree good sir!
I love you. Royal Stove all day.
What I love about that screenshot is you can just glance at it and know something truly crazy went on in that game. In HoTS we might look at similar screenshot and just say "oh, guess P build a replicator".
I find it depressing to no end. Where is the magic?!?
On October 29 2011 04:28 Azerbaijan wrote: If we`re talking about the Dark Archon stealing an scv for zealot/tank recall nonsense I guess I can agree with you to an extent except that it was highly impractical and if you were dedicated to trolling hard enough to actually mind control an scv and get it to safety while managing to not lose the game you deserve to recall tanks. Same thing with NP, if you manage to NP a worker, immediately build a nexus/cc, keep it alive long enough to start building the tech tree without losing the game you probably deserve to do so no matter how impractical.
I agree good sir!
I love you. Royal Stove all day.
What I love about that screenshot is you can just glance at it and know something truly crazy went on in that game. In HoTS we might look at similar screenshot and just say "oh, guess P build a replicator".
I find it depressing to no end. Where is the magic?!?
Agreed.
The Dark Archon was so handsome
Edit: I think the unlimited range really makes this unit boring for all involved
On October 29 2011 04:56 McFeser wrote: No one has talked about the possibility of replicating a drone. Replicate the drone --> Create a hatchery --> create more drones --> create a spawning pool --> make a queen --> now you can support mass zerglings with chronoboost and larva inject at the same time. Zergling with chrono boost will take 18 seconds to create and one single chrone boost could be shared on the entire hatchery.
You can't chronoboost units, only buildings. You could chronoboost the larva injects though. This is a terrible plan though, what are you going to do with mass unupgraded zerglings?
On October 29 2011 05:11 Colour415 wrote: Replicate an overlord and replicate queen, drop creep with overlord (which will have creep drop and speed right?) then lay creep tumor in overlord creep, or lay creep tumor in enemy zergs creep. Spread creep as protoss for map vision?
Why would you want to spread creep for the Zerg? Either he has detection and can kill the tumors, or he doesn't and you could just as easily have made an Observer.
On October 29 2011 05:11 Colour415 wrote: Replicate an overlord and replicate queen, drop creep with overlord (which will have creep drop and speed right?) then lay creep tumor in overlord creep, or lay creep tumor in enemy zergs creep. Spread creep as protoss for map vision?
Why spend 400/400 for a creep tumor, when you can get an observer for 25/75?
Seriously, I don't see many uses for the replicator at its current cost. And Blizzard can't make it cheaper, since the Void Ray costs 250/150 (basically 200/200, right?). So making the replicator cheaper would give Protoss insta-cheap VRs.
So since Blizzard can't change the cost of the replicator (except make it even more ridiculously expensive), what else can they do to it to adjust its balance? Nothing, except maybe build time, and that is no major change. I kinda feel like Blizzard have painted themselves into a corner with this one.
i think high templars would be cool, like if you want to make tech switch, (ex. from collo to storm drops) you just make a single templar while researching storm, and you bring 1-2 replicators behind the mineral line, become templars with 2 instant storms :D then pick 'em up with the prism and you just tech switched much faster.
On October 29 2011 08:14 Zooper31 wrote: Replicating 2-3 banelings in the middle of the giant clumb of banelings. Protoss version of marine dropping onto seige tanks.
You got it wrong. You don't steal the unit from your enemy, you copy it. The replicator will become a baneling and you still have to get it to the other banelings first...
I find several posts in this thread to be frustrating, mostly because I'm madly in love with the replicant and some opinions regarding it are just silly. It's useless at 200/200 cost, it forces bio openings, it replicates units that are more expensive than itself, If i wanted to play terran zerg units, then why would I roll protoss etc. are all opinions that make me want to slap someone.
I can understand not liking it because it makes protoss the race with the most casters, if you don't like casters. But I love casters and I want to watch the best players in the world consistently win, if they have the best caster micro in the game. Terran will still have the best anti-caster in the game and will have more ghosts than protoss ever will. Zerg will still have viper/infestor which is one of the most potent caster combos in the game.
People have said that the replicant will be hard to balance, but i don't think it will be that bad. In fact, if it works it will be a balance stabilizer imo. There are several tweaks that can be made to weaken it or strengthen it without ruining it's core concept. I can't imagine the situation where the protoss wins with the replicant where he didn't outplay his opponent. Of course the unit will open up opportunities for the opponent to make mistakes, but the replicant can obviously be played around. after all, anything it can do you can do cheaper and you know what it can send at you. If you get "surprised" by a cloaked banshee, well, what can be said about you?
One "problem" with the replicant is that it makes it so that all units at or above 200/200 cost will have to be massive, or racially focused such that it won't be abused, but I don't feel like that limits the game too much at all.
Question that we may not even have the answer to (or it could've already been brought up, I don't know. I didn't read every single page on the thread) If you replicate a Ghost, do you automatically get Nukes?
Another use for SCV and MULES is that they can repair protoss mech.
Army of Colossus + Tempests and repairing SCV = invincible >.>. Tempest have AoE air attack, Colossus has AoE ground attack, SCV heals = can't wait to see this in action.
On October 29 2011 09:20 Janaan wrote: Question that we may not even have the answer to (or it could've already been brought up, I don't know. I didn't read every single page on the thread) If you replicate a Ghost, do you automatically get Nukes?
I don't think so. Nukes don't need to be researched but they require a Ghost Academy with nuke in it (technically the Nuke isn't an ability but an actual unit. Nuke is considered an ammo type ability like interceptors on carriers except you can only build nukes from the academy).
On October 29 2011 04:56 McFeser wrote: No one has talked about the possibility of replicating a drone. Replicate the drone --> Create a hatchery --> create more drones --> create a spawning pool --> make a queen --> now you can support mass zerglings with chronoboost and larva inject at the same time. Zergling with chrono boost will take 18 seconds to create and one single chrone boost could be shared on the entire hatchery.
You can't chronoboost units, only buildings. You could chronoboost the larva injects though. This is a terrible plan though, what are you going to do with mass unupgraded zerglings?
.
Ah, I guess you're right aboout chronoboosting units.
It would probably be best to get speed for the zerglings and while teching to that might be pretty volatile and in the end this might not work (We'd have to play the game to see if anything the replicator makes) but if you could get mass speedlings you could keep the zerg on less bases very easily. Do that while teching up to unbeatable deathball to finish off the zerg.
That being siad, I hate strategies like that because (1) in all practicality it won't work and (2) I don't want zerglings in a Protoss army.
I honestly can't see replicating workers as efficient, you'd have to spend so much time and money building up from scratch with the new race to get anything nice. Unless you're going to stop at building a bunch of orbitals so you can also have mules (and I'm not sure it'll be worth it with the new arc shield and mass recall), I can't see it being useful unless you're already way ahead.
Replicate anything and everything. There is little chance in my mind that this unit makes it into the game. There's just no way. If the replicant makes it into the game, you just CAN'T win with tech versus protoss. You can't do cute shit with infestor ling (because herp derp, I have infestors too!), you can't win with ghosts (Because I have EMP too!), etc. It's just too powerful to be able to essentially pidgeonhole the Terran into going MMM and the zerg going hydraroach corrupter and just having more shit. Any time you bust out some tech to do anything, he's just going to have that same tech plus a better army.
The main targets of course will be 1)SCVs/Drones 2)Infestors/Ghosts 3)Vipers, swarmhost, ravens, banshees, seigetanks, etc
a banshee just to see how terrans like dealing with a unit that is never not cost effective.
but not really. im actually never gonna make this unit, its a pathetic design imo and i play protoss to use protoss units, not to copy the others, i hope it doesnt make it past beta
On October 29 2011 11:14 Arisen wrote: Replicate anything and everything. There is little chance in my mind that this unit makes it into the game. There's just no way. If the replicant makes it into the game, you just CAN'T win with tech versus protoss. You can't do cute shit with infestor ling (because herp derp, I have infestors too!), you can't win with ghosts (Because I have EMP too!), etc. It's just too powerful to be able to essentially pidgeonhole the Terran into going MMM and the zerg going hydraroach corrupter and just having more shit. Any time you bust out some tech to do anything, he's just going to have that same tech plus a better army.
The main targets of course will be 1)SCVs/Drones 2)Infestors/Ghosts 3)Vipers, swarmhost, ravens, banshees, seigetanks, etc
Did it ever cross your mind that there is a possibility it will make it into the game, but they would nerf it? I don't see how you can't possibly consider the option that they could do something like increase the price of the replicator so that it is only good in specific situations, otherwise you will just get outnumbered.
On October 29 2011 11:14 Arisen wrote: Replicate anything and everything. There is little chance in my mind that this unit makes it into the game. There's just no way. If the replicant makes it into the game, you just CAN'T win with tech versus protoss. You can't do cute shit with infestor ling (because herp derp, I have infestors too!), you can't win with ghosts (Because I have EMP too!), etc. It's just too powerful to be able to essentially pidgeonhole the Terran into going MMM and the zerg going hydraroach corrupter and just having more shit. Any time you bust out some tech to do anything, he's just going to have that same tech plus a better army.
The main targets of course will be 1)SCVs/Drones 2)Infestors/Ghosts 3)Vipers, swarmhost, ravens, banshees, seigetanks, etc
1) reaper expand build will take care of that quite nicely, entering before 6:30 to 3 shot your replicated SCV. I can't comment on Zerg, but I'm pretty sure you can't place buildings on creep ( no pylons ) It's not as simple as you make it out to be.
2) I can't wait for the insane zealot/sentry/stalker/medivac micro... Every 3 replicators is 1 less sentry. Same for zealots. While it'll be powerful, the lack of numbers is very bad news against marauder/medivac of equal numbers. As for Zerg, likely Swarmhost/toach will be a good counter to roach/sling anyhow so, while zealot/r.infestor is strong, I don't see it being ZOMGWTFBBQROFLOCOPTERPWN.
On October 29 2011 11:58 Champi wrote: a banshee just to see how terrans like dealing with a unit that is never not cost effective.
but not really. im actually never gonna make this unit, its a pathetic design imo and i play protoss to use protoss units, not to copy the others, i hope it doesnt make it past beta
And you'll probably do better than other Protoss who got their ass handed to them everytime against a competent opponent when they massed DTs every game (bcos DTs are awesome broken, how could Blizzard release them.)
I do however, see Protoss pros such as White-ra making good use of them. So excited.
eh, idk, i don't see a lot of good uses for the replicator. it's pretty expensive. the only things i could see it working well is by using for gimicky wins by replicating DTs or Banshees.
I still believe the Replicator is a terrible idea.
First of all, it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.
I've said this before and I'm going to say this again:
If I play PROTOSS, then I want PROTOSS UNITS.
If I wanted Terran or Zerg units, I WOULD PLAY TERRAN OR ZERG, FOR TASSADAR'S SAKE!
What is wrong with Blizzard? What's the point in giving a unit that COPIES other units instead of adding a NEW UNIT to the game? Do you guys realize that the Replicator is not a unit by itself? You guys realize how pointless and stupid, design-wise, is this unit?
On October 29 2011 12:23 Avan wrote: I still believe the Replicator is a terrible idea.
First of all, it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.
I've said this before and I'm going to say this again:
If I play PROTOSS, then I want PROTOSS UNITS.
If I wanted Terran or Zerg units, I WOULD PLAY TERRAN OR ZERG, FOR TASSADAR'S SAKE!
What is wrong with Blizzard? What's the point in giving a unit that COPIES other units instead of adding a NEW UNIT to the game? Do you guys realize that the Replicator is not a unit by itself? You guys realize how pointless and stupid, design-wise, is this unit?
I'm pretty pissed with this.
I wouldn't say I have a violent fervor against the replicant, but I do think it's dumb to have a unit entirely dedicated to copying other races' units...
Sure it provides interesting theory for gameplay but it does not fit the game.
On October 29 2011 12:23 Avan wrote: I still believe the Replicator is a terrible idea.
First of all, it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.
I've said this before and I'm going to say this again:
If I play PROTOSS, then I want PROTOSS UNITS.
If I wanted Terran or Zerg units, I WOULD PLAY TERRAN OR ZERG, FOR TASSADAR'S SAKE!
What is wrong with Blizzard? What's the point in giving a unit that COPIES other units instead of adding a NEW UNIT to the game? Do you guys realize that the Replicator is not a unit by itself? You guys realize how pointless and stupid, design-wise, is this unit?
I'm pretty pissed with this.
But it's just situational units... I think it's a neat idea however I liked dark archon's MC a little better ;; a wells
I could see them nerfing this so that you can only replicate your own units, but this might come with a buff in cost or build time. This would be really interesting helping tech switches or allowing extra money to be spent to get units out more quickly.
Replicated sentry is good if you only want to hallucinate scout or as meat shields. Mid-late game it's good to have some replicators handy in case you need a quick tech switch. E.g. Instead of having to choose between immortals and HT, one immortal and one HT and four replicators mean you can choose to either have 5 immortals, 5 HT or any number in between.
Another amazing use is after being EMP'd, replicating a unit gives the replicatpr full HP/shields and MP of the target. E.g. Replicate an EMP'd immortal and the r.immortal has max shields up.
Seems like a useful unit thats ganna be fun to mess around with. It also seems that it will crush alot of early timing. I just hope this unit isnt so good your ganna be forced to go robo every game.
On October 29 2011 11:14 Arisen wrote: Replicate anything and everything. There is little chance in my mind that this unit makes it into the game. There's just no way. If the replicant makes it into the game, you just CAN'T win with tech versus protoss. You can't do cute shit with infestor ling (because herp derp, I have infestors too!), you can't win with ghosts (Because I have EMP too!), etc. It's just too powerful to be able to essentially pidgeonhole the Terran into going MMM and the zerg going hydraroach corrupter and just having more shit. Any time you bust out some tech to do anything, he's just going to have that same tech plus a better army.
The main targets of course will be 1)SCVs/Drones 2)Infestors/Ghosts 3)Vipers, swarmhost, ravens, banshees, seigetanks, etc
Did it ever cross your mind that there is a possibility it will make it into the game, but they would nerf it? I don't see how you can't possibly consider the option that they could do something like increase the price of the replicator so that it is only good in specific situations, otherwise you will just get outnumbered.
Yes, it crossed my mind, and the unit is still fucking retarded. Yes, this is a cool concept for single player, or we, but protoss is protoss. Protoss is not zerg, protoss is not terran. Protoss has weaknesses and strengths that make it protoss. I realize protoss is having trouble at the competitive level (although they certainly can/do compete), but putting a unit in that can completly circumvent your races weakness is STUPID. I can't all of a sudden decide that as zerg, I don't like that my units are cheap/fast but not as strong and suddenly shit 10 colossus onto the field, and I wouldn't want to.
This unit circumvents what makes starcraft great; 3 seperate, completely unique races.Can people not see how stupid it is to let you copy another unit from another race to compensate for the weaknesses of your race?
Not only is this unit a mess to balance, it's idea is fucking HORRIBLE. The people who say that this is an "interesting unit" are fucking lying to themselves or play protoss and just want it because it's going to be way good.
On October 29 2011 12:23 Avan wrote: I still believe the Replicator is a terrible idea.
First of all, it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.
I've said this before and I'm going to say this again:
If I play PROTOSS, then I want PROTOSS UNITS.
If I wanted Terran or Zerg units, I WOULD PLAY TERRAN OR ZERG, FOR TASSADAR'S SAKE!
What is wrong with Blizzard? What's the point in giving a unit that COPIES other units instead of adding a NEW UNIT to the game? Do you guys realize that the Replicator is not a unit by itself? You guys realize how pointless and stupid, design-wise, is this unit?
I'm pretty pissed with this.
I wouldn't say I have a violent fervor against the replicant, but I do think it's dumb to have a unit entirely dedicated to copying other races' units...
Sure it provides interesting theory for gameplay but it does not fit the game.
Agreed. Bring back the Dark Archon with Mind Control and let's call it a day >.>.
You can replicate an infestor in PvZ and leave it at your base with a high templar. When mutas run in to harass, fungal the ball of mutas and storm it and i hope blizz doesn't nerf it by making it unable to replicate workers.
I suppose it might be useful in the mid-late game when you've got some extra gas, not enough minerals, and really want some fast immortals since the build time is so short.
I'm sorry but I have to ask this. Does anyone else see this unit as gamebreaking and ruining starcraft to an extent. Because I remember artosis mentioning that it maybe standard for toss to take a 3rd as a orbital or a hatchery. But wont that basically make protoss a combination of all the races, and take what makes each race so special and just throwing that away. I honestly hope that this unit does not make into the game because I really really feel that it will ruin the game.
1. siege tank. For obvious reasons 2. chargelot/medivac 3. Infestor, Swarm host, raven, ghost 4. your own void rays (for super fast tech switch late game) 5. Your own high templar (for early psy storms or storm drops) 6. shredder in opponents mineral line 7. scv to make orbitals and get mules+scan
I think this is easier to balance than mind control. With mind control you're removing a unit from your opponent and adding to your own. With Replication you're banking a potential unit. It eats up supply and doesn't change your opponent's forces.
However, like a few people here, I'm fundamentally against the concept. I have never liked unit or structure capture abilities because they are either ridiculously imbalanced, or nerfed to the point of near uselessness. Neural Parasite has gone through numerous changes to get it where it is now, and I still think it's an iffy ability to be giving any unit. But, I can see the benefit to having niche abilities that really are pointless in a lot of circumstances, but useful in just a few.
On October 29 2011 12:23 Avan wrote: I still believe the Replicator is a terrible idea.
First of all, it DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.
I've said this before and I'm going to say this again:
If I play PROTOSS, then I want PROTOSS UNITS.
If I wanted Terran or Zerg units, I WOULD PLAY TERRAN OR ZERG, FOR TASSADAR'S SAKE!
What is wrong with Blizzard? What's the point in giving a unit that COPIES other units instead of adding a NEW UNIT to the game? Do you guys realize that the Replicator is not a unit by itself? You guys realize how pointless and stupid, design-wise, is this unit?
I'm pretty pissed with this.
I wouldn't say I have a violent fervor against the replicant, but I do think it's dumb to have a unit entirely dedicated to copying other races' units...
Sure it provides interesting theory for gameplay but it does not fit the game.
Agreed. Bring back the Dark Archon with Mind Control and let's call it a day >.>.
On one hand, I feel like the Replicator would provide an interesting dynamic and open up some interesting strategies, but on the other hand, it just feels annoying, as others have already stated, that the new unit for Protoss ends up being a unit that can just become some Terran or Zerg unit. It feels incredibly lame and I was really looking forward to something completely original, not just some unit that can just let Protoss have Terran/Zerg units.
I don't see how it is viable to replicate enemy worker and start building things from scratch (200/200 for replicator, 400 for CC + 150 rax and THEN OC). Most Protoss units worth replicating are massive (Colossus, Tempest), so we're left with either Immortal or HT. I agree though it is interesting to replicate a Medivac, Ghost, Infestor or Viper.
On October 29 2011 11:14 Arisen wrote: Replicate anything and everything. There is little chance in my mind that this unit makes it into the game. There's just no way. If the replicant makes it into the game, you just CAN'T win with tech versus protoss. You can't do cute shit with infestor ling (because herp derp, I have infestors too!), you can't win with ghosts (Because I have EMP too!), etc. It's just too powerful to be able to essentially pidgeonhole the Terran into going MMM and the zerg going hydraroach corrupter and just having more shit. Any time you bust out some tech to do anything, he's just going to have that same tech plus a better army.
The main targets of course will be 1)SCVs/Drones 2)Infestors/Ghosts 3)Vipers, swarmhost, ravens, banshees, seigetanks, etc
Did it ever cross your mind that there is a possibility it will make it into the game, but they would nerf it? I don't see how you can't possibly consider the option that they could do something like increase the price of the replicator so that it is only good in specific situations, otherwise you will just get outnumbered.
Yes, it crossed my mind, and the unit is still fucking retarded. Yes, this is a cool concept for single player, or we, but protoss is protoss. Protoss is not zerg, protoss is not terran. Protoss has weaknesses and strengths that make it protoss. I realize protoss is having trouble at the competitive level (although they certainly can/do compete), but putting a unit in that can completly circumvent your races weakness is STUPID. I can't all of a sudden decide that as zerg, I don't like that my units are cheap/fast but not as strong and suddenly shit 10 colossus onto the field, and I wouldn't want to.
This unit circumvents what makes starcraft great; 3 seperate, completely unique races.Can people not see how stupid it is to let you copy another unit from another race to compensate for the weaknesses of your race?
Not only is this unit a mess to balance, it's idea is fucking HORRIBLE. The people who say that this is an "interesting unit" are fucking lying to themselves or play protoss and just want it because it's going to be way good.
This is a unit that could provide us with tense and interesting games. I do agree that it is a bandaid fix to a deeper problem that toss is having right now, but It's certainly not the worst idea that Blizz could have come up with.
The thing about the replicator is that it is STILL PROTOSS. The theme of protoss is very expensive, but valuable/powerful units. Yes, a seige tank or infestor is going to have crazy synergy with protoss armies (storm, forcefield, etc) but the unit is also going to cost a crazy amount of minerals, gas and supply. Hell I could see this being almost as expensive as a capital ship if it makes it into the game. That is still protoss - spending a lot, to have the BEST.
It's also a very situational unit. You're never going to outnumber a terran's tanks, outside of rushes - so it becomes something to fight rushes with. You're never going to be able to sacrifice a unit as well as zerg can, so it becomes something that you need to protect even more than collossi/templar.
I see it as a way to tech switch on a dime. Just keep several replicators in your army and before you engage see what units they have and replicate based on that knowledge. i.e. see mass roaches replicate your single immortal with all your replicators and bam you have a bunch of immortals. This will also keep the enemy in the dark as to what tech path you will go.
I've already come up with a brilliant strategy in PvT. It's a 2 base FE into replicator. Replicate SCV, Go into a fast 3rd and 4th orbital. Use mules for mass gateway army of chargelot-archon.
Would it be worth it to have a permanent mule for 200/200?
Also whether or not they can re-transform is of great relevance. if they can only morph once, it's a sad day for sc2 strategy, as i guess toss is to hopeless we have to copy the units of other races
Many mentionned getting SCVs to make CCs => OCs => Mules etc... But maybe i'm wrong cause i've not been through the 38 pages of this topic, but what about replicating an SCV just for repair purposes ? Buildings, Stalkers, Colossi, Immortals, Warp Prisms, Phoenixes, Void Rays, Tempests are all mechanical and you can repair them.
Edit : my bad it has already been said. I'm leaving this post here cause I think it's not been said enough
I really hope they make it impossible to target scvs and drones. It's quite ridicolous if you could just get two races worth of tech at a time. I know you could do this in bw, but it was a lot harder do to range < infinity.
On November 03 2011 17:43 Zzzapper wrote: I really hope they make it impossible to target scvs and drones. It's quite ridicolous if you could just get two races worth of tech at a time. I know you could do this in bw, but it was a lot harder do to range < infinity.
Yes but in BW you got a whole fresh new 200/200 supply for the new race you copied. Not in SC2. I don't see getting another race tech tree viable except if you're already miles ahead of your opponent
On November 03 2011 17:43 Zzzapper wrote: I really hope they make it impossible to target scvs and drones. It's quite ridicolous if you could just get two races worth of tech at a time. I know you could do this in bw, but it was a lot harder do to range < infinity.
Yes but in BW you got a whole fresh new 200/200 supply for the new race you copied. Not in SC2. I don't see getting another race tech tree viable except if you're already miles ahead of your opponent
I dont know If this has been said (I don't want to read 30 pages), but it will be the end for dt in PvP. Think about it, you open robo->obs->rep replicate the dt, send it to his base and kill him cuz he has no robo.
On November 03 2011 17:59 wasp94 wrote: I dont know If this has been said (I don't want to read 30 pages), but it will be the end for dt in PvP. Think about it, you open robo->obs->rep replicate the dt, send it to his base and kill him cuz he has no robo.
DT is almost done just because of current game trends. Robo builds should kill dt builds pretty easily anyways.
On November 03 2011 17:59 wasp94 wrote: I dont know If this has been said (I don't want to read 30 pages), but it will be the end for dt in PvP. Think about it, you open robo->obs->rep replicate the dt, send it to his base and kill him cuz he has no robo.
Here's the thing alright guys? Alright. If you EVER see your opponent NOT going either Bio (Terran), mass gateway units (Protoss) or Hydras (Zerg), u just make a Voidray and an immortal. Now, the rest of your production is in MASS REPLICATORS! If you ever get attacked, simply look at your opponents composition, and make pure void ray or pure Immortal. And there you go. ezpz. Amirite. >:D?
(No troll) I actually believe this is one of the reasons The Replicant won't make it into the game.
On November 03 2011 15:57 wei2coolman wrote: I've already come up with a brilliant strategy in PvT. It's a 2 base FE into replicator. Replicate SCV, Go into a fast 3rd and 4th orbital. Use mules for mass gateway army of chargelot-archon.
The problem being that when terran scout that you've made a 600/200 investment for a 3rd base, they just come kill you. Or send in a cloaked banshee and 2-shot your 200/200 investment before you finish building the command center. What then, do you spend 800/400 total on getting a command center? Heh, then the terran camps your third.
I mean, protoss will be a lot more defensible because of arc shield...but not that much more. I think going SCV will be good, risky but good. The insane part about it is that it's almost like the replicant gives protoss another very expensive tech tree. Obviously you can technically do anything a terran can at that point, but it's not very effecient to go for much terran tech. Basically ghost tech is the real diamond there, then up to starport tech for medivacs and ravens. Perhaps siege tanks, but you have to consider that all of your terran units will be much worse than his because of upgrades, so i don't think tanks will be that worthwhile to try to produce.
I don't think replicants will be OP. Powerful certainly, but not overly so. 200/200 cost tanks just don't seem whorthwhile outside of just a few perhaps. Most of the casters are worth replicating, but with ghosts being such powerful anti-casters terran has a pretty good answer for whatever the protoss replicates.
I don't think zerg has anything worth replicating other than the infestor, very worthwhile, but only in combo with templar. This seems like a ridiculously powerful combination, but so is viper/infestor. Protoss can replicate vipers, but i don't think it's near as good for us.
On November 03 2011 18:08 The_13abyKnight wrote: Here's the thing alright guys? Alright. If you EVER see your opponent NOT going either Bio (Terran), mass gateway units (Protoss) or Hydras (Zerg), u just make a Voidray and an immortal. Now, the rest of your production is in MASS REPLICATORS! If you ever get attacked, simply look at your opponents composition, and make pure void ray or pure Immortal. And there you go. ezpz. Amirite. >:D?
(No troll) I actually believe this is one of the reasons The Replicant won't make it into the game.
That's just kind of silly. Even though both immortals and void rays are reasonably good, a 200/200 cost for them will leave you with a small army, even if it's tailored to your opponents armies weakness. A good player could shoot right through the army comp.
Edit: though now that you mention it, it does seems like there would be some crazy 1 immortal+2 replicated immortal timings that would be really hard to stop, it would be really fast and with fast immortals and zealots, i don't know what terran would do to stop it. 1 base mass marine maybe? but if protoss sees terran go early expo and started with a quick robo, it seems like this would just kill them outright no matter what.
@ iksf
Yeah, technically this unit will be situational, because you need to wait for terran to make a ghost, or for zerg to make an infestor...lol. I promise, if it stays at a reasonable cost/technical ability this unit will be used by pros often.
On November 03 2011 18:08 The_13abyKnight wrote: Here's the thing alright guys? Alright. If you EVER see your opponent NOT going either Bio (Terran), mass gateway units (Protoss) or Hydras (Zerg), u just make a Voidray and an immortal. Now, the rest of your production is in MASS REPLICATORS! If you ever get attacked, simply look at your opponents composition, and make pure void ray or pure Immortal. And there you go. ezpz. Amirite. >:D?
(No troll) I actually believe this is one of the reasons The Replicant won't make it into the game.
You would be better off in the long term dedicating yourself to an specific tech tree instead of going down the the one size fits all route.
If you replicate another race's worker and build with it, do you get a separate supply count for that race a la brood war?
If you do, I can't see how spending an extra 200/200 to have at the very least, workers that don't cost supply won't be awesome. 100 workers with a 200/200 army? Are you kidding me?
On November 05 2011 00:14 aelynir wrote: If you replicate another race's worker and build with it, do you get a separate supply count for that race a la brood war?
If you do, I can't see how spending an extra 200/200 to have at the very least, workers that don't cost supply won't be awesome. 100 workers with a 200/200 army? Are you kidding me?
no you cant, they said it on panel that supply still counts as your original and 200 is allways max.
I want to see somone who dosent have observers, they replicate zergling and viper for detectoin in a hurry, will be fun.
EDIT: guess you can use the detectoin on your protoss fellow too maybe
On November 04 2011 00:37 UnholyRai wrote: has anyone discussed in depth the problem that, terran will simply never produce tanks vs protoss, ever?
Browder did in some interview, saying that that factor "Player 1 will avoid building a unit because Player 2 might Replicate it" as something they would work to prevent.
I think the best solution is to make the replicator T3
Why are you all talking about mass replicators or tank copying like is such an overpowered thing. Did you forget that replicator costs 200/200 which is more expensive then most of the units in the game. Protoss will have to skip other units to have replicators and you know 5 terran tanks > 3 protoss replicated tanks and overall XXX Unit >> Same XXX unit but more expensive...
On November 05 2011 00:28 djfoxmccloud wrote: Is it possible to replicate your own tempest ? This way you could get a discount after your first tempest !!
No massives. That means, no ultralisks, no colossi, no battlecruiser, no Thor, no archons... There are limits to replication technology.
I can't imagine this unit ever really being worth it. Maybe in some very select scenarios, but it's just so expensive, you only get one unit from it at the end of the day. Is 200/200 really worth grabbing yourself a ghost or infestor etc? I don't know...
Does anyone really want it to be a strong option to replicate the other races workers? I mean it would just be silly and I can't see myself ever doing that since I actually picked protoss to play protoss.
On November 05 2011 01:24 pezit wrote: Does anyone really want it to be a strong option to replicate the other races workers? I mean it would just be silly and I can't see myself ever doing that since I actually picked protoss to play protoss.
Nothing wrong with that, most WoL games hardly see DT play or sky play (mass void ray) for that matter. HotS changes hopefully mean more robo or SG play/BO. I was kind of sad to see Sky toss being nerfed to the ground.
I wonder... can you replicate using a replicated unit as a target?
For instance, a terran player makes some tanks, you replicate a tank. The terran player then stops making tanks and has none on the field. Can you still keep replicating tanks if you have one of the ones you replicated around?
EPT
the royal stove
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