EPTNew HotS Units/Abilities in Blizzcon - Page 308
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soulist
United States932 Posts
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
The protoss discussion isn't about whether toss would be UP or not having enough units. its whether their units are designed well and add for interesting gameplay. And they dont. How does the Oracle not make for interesting gameplay? On the harass side, it forces the exact same choice all harassment forces: keep enough units around in your base for defense (in this case, breaking through entombment rather than cleaning up a drop) and therefore split your army up and limit your attacking power, or roll out with your whole army or risk taking huge econ damage (and if you don't think stopping all mining at a base for 45 seconds with one spell is a lot of econ damage I dont know what to tell you). it is basically the exact same function as muta harass in the choices it forces on the enemy, and mutas are a core part of what make both BW and SC2 great. And removing key tech structures/static defense for 45 seconds is crazy good, and could have huge, dramatic effects on gameplay. Think of how many timing pushes there are in this game that rely on getting key tech out during a given window. Protoss can wreck their enemy's timing pushes, or make their own ones vastly stronger by denying their opponent's ability to build the units they need to defend against it. You know how lots of Protoss used to switch into Colossi after opening Stargate in PvZ because it forced the Zerg to make crappy units in response (ie Hydras)? Then Z figured out Infestors did the job vs. Void/Colossus much better than pure Roach/Hydra/Corruptor? Well...now Protoss can literally just stop Z from making those Infestors, by flying one super fast unit in, hitting one spell, and flying out. There are SO many situations in this game where having the right comp at the right time is crucial, and the Oracle makes it nearly impossible to do so. On the other hand, it is hella pricey, and super fragile. Losing an Oracle, especially early on, will hurt, and if you make a mistake you will lose it--its nearly as flimsy as a Hellion, and makes the Warp Prism look tough, while costing vastly more than either. So you have this super potent tool, that opens up a ton of new strats and gives Protoss some very potent options they didn't have before, that also needs to be used very, very carefully because losing it will be devastating. To me, thats exactly the dynamic I want my SC2 to have. Units that open up diverse strategies and make the game more interesting, that are "overpowered" even in certain ways, but that also need to be used very carefully to be effective. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:45 Brotocol wrote: Wreck them with what exactly? Protoss is "late game heavy." You can't expect P to nip T in the bud. Bulldog allins for example http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Bulldog_(vs._Terran). If P is that mobile and T goes mech-heavy, your goal will be to setup a good 3-4 base econ while keeping him only on 2 bases until you are maxed much, much faster than him, and then finishing the game with a 300 food push. The fact that you will be able to run in, fight until all your zealots go down while saving your gas-intensive units and then backing out, might make lategame p vs t mech pretty fun. | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:47 soulist wrote: All of the units with their abilities seem so op wtf. Like especially the protoss. Omg cannon rush with that skill. I frogot what its called. Arc Shield. 4 SCVs were able to kill the pylon, and the shield only brought 1 to 5 HP. | ||
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atavus
France60 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:38 ETisME wrote: overseer and oracle are two very different units.... one is purely for scouting while the other can do some level of harassment with a reasonable speed. Not to mention it is unlocked at robo tech, allowing you to do more than just getting your deathball or actually works work warp prism. Again, lots of possiblity. and now that the recall skill to boost toss' mobility, which is really one big flaw of toss, you shouldn't really complain too much yet Oracle is Air tech not robo. By the way Recall as it is don't really boost mobility but it allow to withdraw you're unit to a nexus. I'm pretty sure that it will not used to recall your whole army once u have engaged (blizzard will make it so). It will use to withdraw harass unit like zealot/DT created at far away expo by using a prism or pylon or as a defensive tool against attack on your own nexus. Still this is a very good change, but won't see move like Kiwikaki did against stephano at IPL anymore. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:44 familyguy123 wrote: PvZ -> it's going to be interesting because the Zerg have weak anti-air early game, and the Oracle's just going to wtfpwn the Zerg. Tech switches will be very difficult, as will over-droning. The Nexus abilities Protoss has acquired negate the need for passive play early. X gate timings to kill a 3rd are going to be hard to stop (unless Mass Recall requires a fleet beacon, which arguably it might). Zergling runby's are going to be negated by the ad-hoc photon cannon ability, so FE's will be safer. I think NP / grappling hook/burrowed siege unit, however, will mean that the end state of PvZ is going to involve HT. It'll look more similar to Brood War in that sense, but Colossi/Archon/Immortal are just going to get raped if you can't defend them with feedback, or if you get Dark Swarmed or have to Storm the Swarm Lord. Of course, it depends on the final, decided-upon strength of these units. We're at the stage where counters are sharp for Blizzcon video / unit testing purposes, but I think Protoss will just be forced to commit to HT-heavy builds. PvT -> The Warhound as many have noted was put in the game for mech. The counters are mass immortal and ... carrier. Mass marine counters immortal (And mech is gas heavy anyway), there is no sign we're balancing ghosts, so I don't really the counter Protoss has to heavy mech play. So, in my opinion, Protoss is less of a death-balley race and instead more of a finesse one, with Mech being viable finally, no realistic counter for the Protoss death ball, and Protoss' main gains being viable Mass Recall + Oracle raiding. Protoss will look a lot more like BW protoss, where the Mech Ball just wtfpwns Protoss and it's up to the Protoss to WRECK the Terran before they have a chance to get huge. Exactly. I feel like the Twilight and Stargate Techs are going to become standard for protoss in all MU's by the time they are dropping their third base. I feal like protoss will become a 'multitasking, high apm, micro intensive' race. We have options now thats not 'go deathball and a click'. Warpprism harrass with recall in the late game is going to make dual drops so effective. Blink will become more of a staple i think (to use as harrass, map control while we get the stargate and ht tech rolling). Protoss might not have got the sweetest units, but one huge disadvantage we have is that we 'have to commit' to a battle once its midgamish if we run across an army in the middle of the map. Now we have the abilitiy to defend and move out without auto losing your whole army. | ||
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Brotocol
243 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:48 Teoita wrote: Bulldog allins for example http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Bulldog_(vs._Terran). If P is that mobile and T goes mech-heavy, your goal will be to setup a good 3-4 base econ while keeping him only on 2 bases until you are maxed much, much faster than him, and then finishing the game with a 300 food push. The fact that you will be able to run in, fight until all your zealots go down while saving your gas-intensive units and then backing out, might make lategame p vs t mech pretty fun. edit: No wait, I didn't misread. I mean, I don't see how this is feasible in StarCraft II. How can SC2 Protoss wreck Terran early? | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:29 Darksoldierr wrote: Well on what else should i base my opinion?  I cant play myself so i watch the videos. I think what a lot of people aren't taking into consideration is that if this shredder thing has a cooldown, it's going to be totally fine. Then you could still run one zergling in, set it off, wait, then run the rest of your army past when it's on cooldown. Dunno if it will work like that, but I should hope so. | ||
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villageidiot
353 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:37 Hider wrote: The protoss discussion isn't about whether toss would be UP or not having enough units. its whether their units are designed well and add for interesting gameplay. And they dont. You didn't have to play sc2 to be able to see that mauruders are a boring unit. How can you say something like the Oracle or Replicant doesn't add interesting gameplay? Those are probably the two most unique units to ever be added to this game. At this point I can't even tell how the Oracle will even mesh it self into the game because i've never ever dealt with a unit that is quite like it. One could argue the Overseer being similar, but delaying Thermal lance for 20seconds isn't exactly the same as stopping the ability to make Colossus altogether for the next 45seconds.. You can complain about units like the Marauder until the cows come home, but at the end of the day there needs to be those standard units that are simple to use at heart to make the game enjoyable to play and not feel like your playing flight simulator. Broodwar had those kinds of units too, but people ended up falling in love with them because they feel the game is balanced. Sometimes I try to imagine what it would be like now if Marauders were in Broodwar and how people would be complaining at Blizzard for not adding Marauders to SC2 :p | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
but they didn't. Instead they made a similar but different unit that is kitable and from the looks of it, useless, against a line of tanks. Nine swarm hosts vs five tanks, they barely get their fire off.. I want to see a video of an equal number of swarm hosts and siege tanks so I can see the tanks unavoidable direct attack annihilate the swarm hosts attack.... | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:48 Teoita wrote: Bulldog allins for example http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Bulldog_(vs._Terran). If P is that mobile and T goes mech-heavy, your goal will be to setup a good 3-4 base econ while keeping him only on 2 bases until you are maxed much, much faster than him, and then finishing the game with a 300 food push. The fact that you will be able to run in, fight until all your zealots go down while saving your gas-intensive units and then backing out, might make lategame p vs t mech pretty fun. Why would terran start going mech now? Their mmm is just as powerful as before, terran didn't lose anything and toss didn't gain anything with regards to beating it. If you are saying that mech is going to become more powerful than mmm, then god help all protoss. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Protoss might not have got the sweetest units, but one huge disadvantage we have is that we 'have to commit' to a battle once its midgamish if we run across an army in the middle of the map. Now we have the abilitiy to defend and move out without auto losing your whole army. So true. Goodbye, protoss turtling. You will not be missed. hello, aggressive, harassing, constantly probing forces. I think Nexus Recall wont be imba though, because both T and Z are getting potent defensive tools in the shredder and the viper's dark swarm thingy and even the swarm host. Basically, T and Z have gotten tools that make it much easier to control the map, and in return Protoss have gotten the ability to attack with a large force without necessarily running the risk of losing the whole game if they don't win there. | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:39 Deckkie wrote: Yes, They can build a CC then a Supply depot, then a Rax and then morph the CC into a OC and drop mules. The more I think about the Replicant the more I hate it. The unit description should be: ''Sorry Protoss players, we couldn't fix it, now you can build Terran and Zerg bases, GL HF'' It makes no sense at all. | ||
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JesusOurSaviour
United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:47 soulist wrote: I believe, SCII with all this new stuff in HoTS, just deviated further from the SCBW mould. All of the units with their abilities seem so op wtf. Like especially the protoss. Omg cannon rush with that skill. I frogot what its called. For better or for worse? I don't know. But these units just seem too... specific. Like they were made specifically for a purpose. That oracle unit sigh... Toss can already mass-phoenix and kill drones... I'm thinking Blizzard really designs the game for the popular market and not for the tip-top pro-scene. Reasonable, but I'm going to say it now: they might have just destroyed the game. | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:53 JesusOurSaviour wrote: I believe, SCII with all this new stuff in HoTS, just deviated further from the SCBW mould. For better or for worse? I don't know. But these units just seem too... specific. Like they were made specifically for a purpose. That oracle unit sigh... Toss can already mass-phoenix and kill drones... I'm thinking Blizzard really designs the game for the popular market and not for the tip-top pro-scene. Reasonable, but I'm going to say it now: they might have just destroyed the game. ehh off course Blizzard does that, the Pro scene doesn't give them profits, selling the game does. They made a game that is casual friendly and try to make it able for proplay too. Simple as that. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9405 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:48 awesomoecalypse wrote: How does the Oracle not make for interesting gameplay? On the harass side, it forces the exact same choice all harassment forces: keep enough units around in your base for defense (in this case, breaking through entombment rather than cleaning up a drop) and therefore split your army up and limit your attacking power, or roll out with your whole army or risk taking huge econ damage (and if you don't think stopping all mining at a base for 45 seconds with one spell is a lot of econ damage I dont know what to tell you). it is basically the exact same function as muta harass in the choices it forces on the enemy, and mutas are a core part of what make both BW and SC2 great. And removing key tech structures/static defense for 45 seconds is crazy good, and could have huge, dramatic effects on gameplay. Think of how many timing pushes there are in this game that rely on getting key tech out during a given window. Protoss can wreck their enemy's timing pushes, or make their own ones vastly stronger by denying their opponent's ability to build the units they need to defend against it. You know how lots of Protoss used to switch into Colossi after opening Stargate in PvZ because it forced the Zerg to make crappy units in response (ie Hydras)? Then Z figured out Infestors did the job vs. Void/Colossus much better than pure Roach/Hydra/Corruptor? Well...now Protoss can literally just stop Z from making those Infestors, by flying one super fast unit in, hitting one spell, and flying out. There are SO many situations in this game where having the right comp at the right time is crucial, and the Oracle makes it nearly impossible to do so. On the other hand, it is hella pricey, and super fragile. Losing an Oracle, especially early on, will hurt, and if you make a mistake you will lose it--its nearly as flimsy as a Hellion, and makes the Warp Prism look tough, while costing vastly more than either. So you have this super potent tool, that opens up a ton of new strats and gives Protoss some very potent options they didn't have before, that also needs to be used very, very carefully because losing it will be devastating. To me, thats exactly the dynamic I want my SC2 to have. Units that open up diverse strategies and make the game more interesting, that are "overpowered" even in certain ways, but that also need to be used very carefully to be effective. 1) So what if the unit is good and usefull. This isn't relevant. Design = / balance. 2) Yes the terran units has to spread it self out like against mutas. However mutas attacking your bases and doing perhaps unlimited amount of damage to scv, building and other small groups of units are much more interesting. Same thing with a hellion drop a nuke. To make up for an interesting harass unit one of the following 2 conditions much be met: - it should reward good micro from both players (micro not clicks). - It should have an unknown outcome (high reward). A good example of a harass unit is the hellion. It rewards micro from both players, and the harass can be somewhat game changing. the probelm of the hellion (at least prepatch) was that it was too unforgiving, so the hellion is definitely not perfectly designed, but its much more interesting than the oracle. Another kind of interesting harass technique is the nuke. While it doesn't reward good micro from either player, it has an unknown outcome, and it isn't as unforgiving as the hellions as you have 20 sc2 seconds to prepare for the nuke. What does the oracle have? If you have 1-4 oracles flying into the terran base and the terran has his units 10 seconds away the damage output is almost given. And no kind of micro can really change that. This is just plain boring game design. | ||
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silentblob
Great Britain40 Posts
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
1) if a replicator, which is 4food, replicates a ghost, which is 2food. is it still 4food in your army or 2food? if its 4food still i cant possibly see how its worth it to replicate anything 2) the tempest is actually a EXTREMELY good unit for toss, but ONLY IF it moves faster than a viking. if vikings move faster than tempests and can kite them due to 9range and faster speed, then tempests will be worthless if the tempest is FASTER than vikings and cant be kited by them, its a GOOD UNIT master toss here. carriers DIDNT suck and im sad to see them go. i never got carriers against zerg but in master level games i am going carriers almost every game against terran AFTER i have 6+ collossi. 4 carriers will KILL 12 vikings easily. not even joking, go test it in the unit tester. and with guardian shield and blink stalkers its even easier. and with collossi all the marines go splat in seconds carriers are slightly cost-effective against vikings. vikings cannot "kite" carriers because vikings slow down to fire which allows carriers with their range8 launch to launch and kill the vikings. vikings do not outrange carriers and vikings do not "beat" carriers. vikings are slightly cost-ineffective against carriers regardless, if the tempest is EVEN BETTER than carriers AGAINST AIR UNITS, it will be pretty good to add to the deathball. if tempest is SLOWER THAN VIKINGS it will be a horrible unit the replicator is the perfect counter to 1-1-1 a terran spends 150/100 on factory, 50/25 on tech lab, 150/125 on siege tank, and 100/100 on siege tank upgrade in order to get his first siege tank protoss can effectively spend 200/200 and get ONE siege tank, which is enough to put an advantage into the tosses favor and hold against any 1-1-1 strategy, not to mention the toss can have immortals to support his siege tank. | ||
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ohampatu
United States1448 Posts
On October 23 2011 00:53 Jakkerr wrote: The more I think about the Replicant the more I hate it. The unit description should be: ''Sorry Protoss players, we couldn't fix it, now you can build Terran and Zerg bases, GL HF'' It makes no sense at all. Pfft. Open your mind to other possibilities. Replicating 2 HT could help immensely. Replicating 2 banshee on a unsuspecting Terran could help immensely. The things we got make for interesting dynamic gameplay. Replicate a shredder and put it in your mineral line at your third. That with a canon or 2, would help us out as much as it will when terran does it. Building terran and zerg bases are going to be 2 things only lowbie ranks will try to do. No way in hell you can waste that much money early game and not just 'die' to any competent playing doing a standard push. | ||
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