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On October 23 2011 00:53 Jakkerr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 00:39 Deckkie wrote:On October 23 2011 00:36 27power wrote:
ok i cant seem to find this anywhere. can a replicant copy an scv so u can build CC's instead of nexi and use mules? Yes, They can build a CC then a Supply depot, then a Rax and then morph the CC into a OC and drop mules. The more I think about the Replicant the more I hate it. The unit description should be: ''Sorry Protoss players, we couldn't fix it, now you can build Terran and Zerg bases, GL HF'' It makes no sense at all.
You do realize it is totally unreasonable to invest in a second tech tree?
But on first glance it does feel a little like they gave Protoss every caster unit in the game.\
edit: invest not infest
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On October 23 2011 00:58 roymarthyup wrote:
few questions
1) if a replicator, which is 4food, replicates a ghost, which is 2food. is it still 4food in your army or 2food? if its 4food still i cant possibly see how its worth it to replicate anything
2) the tempest is actually a EXTREMELY good unit for toss, but ONLY IF it moves faster than a viking. if vikings move faster than tempests and can kite them due to 9range and faster speed, then tempests will be worthless
if the tempest is FASTER than vikings and cant be kited by them, its a GOOD UNIT
master toss here. carriers DIDNT suck and im sad to see them go. i never got carriers against zerg but in master level games i am going carriers almost every game against terran AFTER i have 6+ collossi.
4 carriers will KILL 12 vikings easily. not even joking, go test it in the unit tester. and with guardian shield and blink stalkers its even easier. and with collossi all the marines go splat in seconds
carriers are slightly cost-effective against vikings. vikings cannot "kite" carriers because vikings slow down to fire which allows carriers with their range8 launch to launch and kill the vikings. vikings do not outrange carriers and vikings do not "beat" carriers. vikings are slightly cost-ineffective against carriers
regardless, if the tempest is EVEN BETTER than carriers AGAINST AIR UNITS, it will be pretty good to add to the deathball.
if tempest is SLOWER THAN VIKINGS it will be a horrible unit
the replicator is the perfect counter to 1-1-1
a terran spends 150/100 on factory, 50/25 on tech lab, 150/125 on siege tank, and 100/100 on siege tank upgrade in order to get his first siege tank
protoss can effectively spend 200/200 and get ONE siege tank, which is enough to put an advantage into the tosses favor and hold against any 1-1-1 strategy, not to mention the toss can have immortals to support his siege tank.
Gotta agree on the speed of the tempest, If it can be kited forever...
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On October 23 2011 00:39 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 00:36 27power wrote:
ok i cant seem to find this anywhere. can a replicant copy an scv so u can build CC's instead of nexi and use mules? Yes, They can build a CC then a Supply depot, then a Rax and then morph the CC into a OC and drop mules.
Finally someone that gets it! I see so many comments about "replicate an SCV and then build a bunker!" without realizing you still need to build CC, depot, and rax first.
Build times in game seconds:
100 CC
30 depot
65 rax
40 bunker
----------
235 seconds (nearly 4 minutes) with perfect timing.
And the replicator costs 200/200/4 which is quite expensive. So
Costs (min/gas)
200/200 Replicator
400 CC
100 Depot
150 Rax
100 Bunker
-----------------
950/200 total cost in min/gas
Basically, at the cost of almost 1000/200 and over the span of 4 minutes you can then have 1 bunker.
Not saying that the Replicant is worthless by any means. Just that it will very unlikely be used to start up a Terran/Zerg army with your existing Protoss one (very similar to what happened with Dark Archon's Mind Control ability). Rather it would be better used to clone enemies that are giving you trouble in a battle to help turn the tides.
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On October 23 2011 00:59 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 00:53 Jakkerr wrote:On October 23 2011 00:39 Deckkie wrote:On October 23 2011 00:36 27power wrote:
ok i cant seem to find this anywhere. can a replicant copy an scv so u can build CC's instead of nexi and use mules? Yes, They can build a CC then a Supply depot, then a Rax and then morph the CC into a OC and drop mules. The more I think about the Replicant the more I hate it. The unit description should be: ''Sorry Protoss players, we couldn't fix it, now you can build Terran and Zerg bases, GL HF'' It makes no sense at all. You do realize it is totally unreasonable to invest in a second tech tree? But on first glance it does feel a little like they gave Protoss every caster unit in the game.\ edit: invest not infest
With neural, zerg can infest in a second tech tree 
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Also I'd like to say that the hydra speed upgrade is completely unnecessary. The logic behind making them slow as piss off creep in the first place was:
-Zerg players would have to spread their creep like crazy.
-They're gonna need lots and lots of queens for that.
-Sooner or later they were supposed to realize that the more queens you got in the early game the more likely you were to fend off a 2 rax/bunker rush, banshee/hellion rush, cannon wall in, 4 gate, phoenix rush, 6 pool, etc.
Basically slow hydras were there to lead you to water and make you drink. But leave it to zerg players to reduce a godsent unit (the queen) into a cog in their relentless drone making machine. Anybody who claims that tvz or anything else is imba was not actually playing zerg, he was playing drones. Some people have a drone fetish that can't be cured, no matter how many patches or units you give them. They love drones more than they love winning games.
The Blizzard guy in those videos didn't shave his head, he pulled his hair out.
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On October 23 2011 00:52 Probe1 wrote:
I'm really not a huge fan of the swarm host. I thought they had buckled and finally admitted zerg is incredibly weak without lurkers to a wide variety of things.
but they didn't. Instead they made a similar but different unit that is kitable and from the looks of it, useless, against a line of tanks. Nine swarm hosts vs five tanks, they barely get their fire off..
I want to see a video of an equal number of swarm hosts and siege tanks so I can see the tanks unavoidable direct attack annihilate the swarm hosts attack....
Same.
It's really not a Lurker at all.
And how good or bad it is, I think completely depends on how long the "broodlings" (or whatever) last. Depending on their life span will determine how much in harm's way the Swarm Hosts are. In the video, Dustin Browder said you "set their rally points."
It makes sense to me that the lifespan of the broodlings would last a very long time. I mean, the Spwarn Hosts only shoot them off ever 15 seconds. But imagine having a cluster of them at a relative safe distance and constantly switching their rally points to different expansions and choke points.
While you control your normal forces, the Swarm Hosts would be sending out missing attacks depending on their rallies.
(If the lifespans are really short, with a 15 second cooldown, they look really dumb.)
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On October 23 2011 01:04 blahblahblahwhatever wrote:
Also I'd like to say that the hydra speed upgrade is completely unnecessary. The logic behind making them slow as piss off creep in the first place was:
-Zerg players would have to spread their creep like crazy.
-They're gonna need lots and lots of queens for that.
-Sooner or later they were supposed to realize that the more queens you got in the early game the more likely you were to fend off a 2 rax/bunker rush, banshee/hellion rush, cannon wall in, 4 gate, phoenix rush, 6 pool, etc.
Basically slow hydras were there to lead you to water and make you drink. But leave it to zerg players to reduce a godsent unit (the queen) into a cog in their relentless drone making machine. Anybody who claims that tvz or anything else is imba was not actually playing zerg, he was playing drones. Some people have a drone fetish that can't be cured, no matter how many patches or units you give them. They love drones more than they love winning games.
The Blizzard guy in those videos didn't shave his head, he pulled his hair out.
The hydra zerg speed upgrade isn't available until hive. So you still will need to spread creep and do all of what you said until then.
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HotS is going to be AWESOME!
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On October 23 2011 01:04 blahblahblahwhatever wrote:
Also I'd like to say that the hydra speed upgrade is completely unnecessary. The logic behind making them slow as piss off creep in the first place was:
-Zerg players would have to spread their creep like crazy.
-They're gonna need lots and lots of queens for that.
-Sooner or later they were supposed to realize that the more queens you got in the early game the more likely you were to fend off a 2 rax/bunker rush, banshee/hellion rush, cannon wall in, 4 gate, phoenix rush, 6 pool, etc.
Basically slow hydras were there to lead you to water and make you drink. But leave it to zerg players to reduce a godsent unit (the queen) into a cog in their relentless drone making machine. Anybody who claims that tvz or anything else is imba was not actually playing zerg, he was playing drones. Some people have a drone fetish that can't be cured, no matter how many patches or units you give them. They love drones more than they love winning games.
The Blizzard guy in those videos didn't shave his head, he pulled his hair out.
Hmm, never thought about the hydra like that
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On October 23 2011 00:52 Probe1 wrote:
I'm really not a huge fan of the swarm host. I thought they had buckled and finally admitted zerg is incredibly weak without lurkers to a wide variety of things.
but they didn't. Instead they made a similar but different unit that is kitable and from the looks of it, useless, against a line of tanks. Nine swarm hosts vs five tanks, they barely get their fire off..
I want to see a video of an equal number of swarm hosts and siege tanks so I can see the tanks unavoidable direct attack annihilate the swarm hosts attack....
Are you serious? Even if the swarm host was "more" like the lurker it would not change anything. Did you even watch Broodwar? Lurkers were actually super crappy vs siege tanks. Lurkers are NOT the answer vs siege tanks.
What you really want is Lurker + Dark Swarm. So please get it right. There are strategies that are yet to be explored because the game isn't even out yet. Blinding cloud to lower the range of the siege tank + Swarm hosts to deal with mass siege tank seems pretty damn legitimate if you ask me...
I wouldn't jump to conclusions so fast if I were you :-P
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So let's see...
Terran:
Thor replaced is good, the replacement looks a bit stupid but it will hopefully make mech more interesting.
Hellion trade of speed for shorter cone attack and health seems pretty crazy as later on you don't neccesarily even need that speed when you move them with tanks and whatnot.
Shredder... expensive spidermine replacement? I like the mapcontrol, no idea how much their vision radius is or does it change delpoyed but it might counter the new zerg siege too efficiently depending on damage rations, can it stop hellion raids with few of them? Probably not.
New Thor still seems useless.
Zerg:
Viper is goody, as if Infestor wasn't super useful they are given another powerhouse caster, more or less neutralizing main targets makes breaking shit with attack move that much easier.
Ultra burrow thing, maybe they won't get stuck that badly anymore and make them worth their cost.
Swarm dude seems like poor man's Lurker, there's already tons of lings or roaches and so on to make a swarm so I'd rather see a siege that isn't limited so badly by choke points and being spawning such slowass units. Maybe they are powerful, but the design seems a bit boring.
Protoss:
Tempest, hopefully his ground attack is longer and not a charge thing like VR so his only role isn't a mass muta counter, but a powerhouse of a ship. I'll miss carrier... hope they'll make this worth something though.
Replicant seems... very situational, with 4 supply 200/200 you better use them damn well or just grab a damn worker to get late game multirace army (wonder if the supply is separate for races like in BW) I kind of hope that workers copied are unable to build though, it's like oneshot mind control from vision range at high-ish cost.
Oracle is replacing Phoenix as harass unit? Not sure how ridiculous the deactivation ability will be, it will probably need limitations. Still, would have hoped for proper caster, not some bizarre building/mining disruptor.
And the unit and building ability changes... what's up with most of them? Regenerating reapers? Give them a proper ability, attack speed burst or something would be way better a parasite like probe to chuck on buildings to give perma vision of them and quite limitedly to their surroundings? Scans and shit are there already though. Quite random cloak change, Nexus imba?
Overall it looks to be going to more interesting direction, but the outlook of stuff like Warhound and some abilities do need tweaking, hope they rework or scrap Oracle and reconsider Swarm Host way of sieging.
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On October 23 2011 01:04 blahblahblahwhatever wrote:
Also I'd like to say that the hydra speed upgrade is completely unnecessary. The logic behind making them slow as piss off creep in the first place was:
-Zerg players would have to spread their creep like crazy.
-They're gonna need lots and lots of queens for that.
-Sooner or later they were supposed to realize that the more queens you got in the early game the more likely you were to fend off a 2 rax/bunker rush, banshee/hellion rush, cannon wall in, 4 gate, phoenix rush, 6 pool, etc.
Basically slow hydras were there to lead you to water and make you drink. But leave it to zerg players to reduce a godsent unit (the queen) into a cog in their relentless drone making machine. Anybody who claims that tvz or anything else is imba was not actually playing zerg, he was playing drones. Some people have a drone fetish that can't be cured, no matter how many patches or units you give them. They love drones more than they love winning games.
The Blizzard guy in those videos didn't shave his head, he pulled his hair out.
Might as well make all Zerg units extremely slow off creep then? You're basically saying Blizzard made the unit terrible off creep to force Zergs to creep spread more. If they really want Zergs to creep spread more, why just limit it to speed? That doesn't seem to be a noticeable enough way for Zergs to want to creep spread more than they already do. How about some ridiculous mechanics like Zerg units do not regenerate life and take 2x damage while off creep? lol
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On October 23 2011 00:52 Probe1 wrote:
I'm really not a huge fan of the swarm host. I thought they had buckled and finally admitted zerg is incredibly weak without lurkers to a wide variety of things.
but they didn't. Instead they made a similar but different unit that is kitable and from the looks of it, useless, against a line of tanks. Nine swarm hosts vs five tanks, they barely get their fire off..
I want to see a video of an equal number of swarm hosts and siege tanks so I can see the tanks unavoidable direct attack annihilate the swarm hosts attack....
In the video they were all burrowed at the exact same time so a ball of weak units formed. Click burrow repeat I feel would have far better results sending in a long but still fairly quick line of units that would advance further before taking serious damage.
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I think the replicant might be a bit too strong in certain scenarios, its probably gonna be key in:
1-1-1 defense: It effectively nullifies 1-1-1 as a viable build; replicate a siege tank to control the area, or replicate a raven then HSM the marines.
Late game caster battles: The replicant counters ghosts if well played, and there's something else that hasn't been considered. The replicant is effectively a khaydarin amulet.
I could write up a few more situations in which it can really be an amazing unit, maybe too amazing.
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whilst i like the theory of the oracle (ie. harass unit thats a spell caster that doesnt kill units), its total horse shit cause every other fk'n harass unit KILLS WORKERS.
all we wanted was a harass unit or something to micro in our warp prisms...
replicant, they even said it was costly 200/200, how much use is that REALLY gonna have though.
i feel like its just more micro intensive (when we steal spellcasters ie. viper to pull back our units T.T)
edit: every replicant scenario is just a "cute" play, that we could have dealt with another way. i don't think replicant is healthy for the game (ie why play toss if we gotta use other races units lols)
tempest is bad ass, i wish they left carrier though so we can have a choice of one or the other.
carriers vs mech, tempest vs muta.
i really dislike the oracle, i'm on the fence about the replicant, and i like the tempest.
im underwhelmed, i feel like we didnt get what we wanted.
also viper pull is going to be so fucking ridiculous, buff feedback range NAOOOOO
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nexus "defensive" ability: i sense a LOT of cheesing, now doable with gateway instead of forge....
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On October 23 2011 01:11 29 fps wrote:
nexus "defensive" ability: i sense a LOT of cheesing, now doable with gateway instead of forge....
pylon in enemy mineral line, and then use the ability on it. LOL
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On October 23 2011 01:09 mordk wrote:
I think the replicant might be a bit too strong in certain scenarios, its probably gonna be key in:
1-1-1 defense: It effectively nullifies 1-1-1 as a viable build; replicate a siege tank to control the area, or replicate a raven then HSM the marines.
Late game caster battles: The replicant counters ghosts if well played, and there's something else that hasn't been considered. The replicant is effectively a khaydarin amulet.
I could write up a few more situations in which it can really be an amazing unit, maybe too amazing.
The high cost of the replicant (being 400/400 and 4 supply cost) seems very unfeasible with stopping the 1-1-1. This is a real time strategy and the biggest factor in dealing with the 1-1-1 is because of the fact that it comes so early in the game.
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lol just realized, toss will be able to replicate zergs new "swarm host" and be able to have a stealth-attacker even if he has no DT shrine basically having a strong defensive unit for 200/200 while he simply snipes whatever unit zerg has for detection
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On October 23 2011 01:11 29 fps wrote:
nexus "defensive" ability: i sense a LOT of cheesing, now doable with gateway instead of forge....
4 SCVs can kill the pylon without incurring any losses.
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EPT
