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On October 23 2011 01:18 GizmoPT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 01:15 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 01:09 ePBuckets wrote:
whilst i like the theory of the oracle (ie. harass unit thats a spell caster that doesnt kill units), its total horse shit cause every other fk'n harass unit KILLS WORKERS.
all we wanted was a harass unit or something to micro in our warp prisms...
replicant, they even said it was costly 200/200, how much use is that REALLY gonna have though.
i feel like its just more micro intensive (when we steal spellcasters ie. viper to pull back our units T.T)
edit: every replicant scenario is just a "cute" play, that we could have dealt with another way. i don't think replicant is healthy for the game (ie why play toss if we gotta use other races units lols)
tempest is bad ass, i wish they left carrier though so we can have a choice of one or the other.
carriers vs mech, tempest vs muta.
i really dislike the oracle, i'm on the fence about the replicant, and i like the tempest.
im underwhelmed, i feel like we didnt get what we wanted.
also viper pull is going to be so fucking ridiculous, buff feedback range NAOOOOO Replicant is amazing. Make 2 full mana HT's without going HT tech. Make a couple ghosts to 'cloak and head in and emp' the terran ball to kill its medivacks/ghosts energy. People aren't thinking right. Replicant a tank to defend early expands vs bio play. Replicant a raven for worker harrass and pdd in your army. Replicant 2 banshees for some surprise harrass. TLDR--We didn't get the best units, but we got units that have a higher skill cap imo. well you've to see the units and target them to replicate them so you opponent already has the units and paid less than you to have them
Unless every other person here is wrong, you can replicate units that you own without having them and that your opponents can make, not just units they have on the field. Like prevoius poster above me said. Getting a few VR very quickly without going stargate tech.
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I think that there will be more units removed.
For now they only removed the Carrier and the Mothership. These are probably the 2 least viable units in the game. For this reason I would argue that they felt brave enough the remove them straight away.
I think after enough testing other units will get removed. When the Warhound turns out to be a viable anti armoured unit they will probably remove the Marauder.
Uhhmm maybe not worded it too well, but I hope that you guys understand what I mean. Also the Warhound is just an example.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On October 23 2011 01:11 ePBuckets wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 01:11 29 fps wrote:
nexus "defensive" ability: i sense a LOT of cheesing, now doable with gateway instead of forge.... pylon in enemy mineral line, and then use the ability on it. LOL LOL. EPBuckets do you by chance cheese on the ladder  Very quick thinking there hehehe
Hmmm yea that's going to be huge.... don't even need a gateway wtf... just double pylon in behind mineral field??? I have a feeling it's going to cost the protoss a lot of energy, or not be incompatible with pylons. Yes - it will be incompatible on pylons for sure - (or else Blizzard testers are just total drop-kicks)
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the reason replicant counters 1-1-1 so well is because they build fast and it lets a toss get a single siegetank for 200/200 for home defense to deal with the masses of marines
terran spends 150/100 on factory, 50/25 on techlab, 150/125 on tank, and 100/100 on siege mode upgrade just to field his first tank
protoss spends 200/200 to field his first tank, which is enough to defend his natural with his zealots/stalkers/immortals and beat any 1-1-1 attack easily
replicants will make it so terran never wants to go tanks against toss. because then in the lategame hes fighting tanks+collossi
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It seems like Blizz didn't put a lot of thoughts into Toss' units, it's like: okay, i think this one looks cool, try it out cuz i'm out of idea. LOL
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On October 23 2011 01:20 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 01:18 GizmoPT wrote:On October 23 2011 01:15 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 01:09 ePBuckets wrote:
whilst i like the theory of the oracle (ie. harass unit thats a spell caster that doesnt kill units), its total horse shit cause every other fk'n harass unit KILLS WORKERS.
all we wanted was a harass unit or something to micro in our warp prisms...
replicant, they even said it was costly 200/200, how much use is that REALLY gonna have though.
i feel like its just more micro intensive (when we steal spellcasters ie. viper to pull back our units T.T)
edit: every replicant scenario is just a "cute" play, that we could have dealt with another way. i don't think replicant is healthy for the game (ie why play toss if we gotta use other races units lols)
tempest is bad ass, i wish they left carrier though so we can have a choice of one or the other.
carriers vs mech, tempest vs muta.
i really dislike the oracle, i'm on the fence about the replicant, and i like the tempest.
im underwhelmed, i feel like we didnt get what we wanted.
also viper pull is going to be so fucking ridiculous, buff feedback range NAOOOOO Replicant is amazing. Make 2 full mana HT's without going HT tech. Make a couple ghosts to 'cloak and head in and emp' the terran ball to kill its medivacks/ghosts energy. People aren't thinking right. Replicant a tank to defend early expands vs bio play. Replicant a raven for worker harrass and pdd in your army. Replicant 2 banshees for some surprise harrass. TLDR--We didn't get the best units, but we got units that have a higher skill cap imo. well you've to see the units and target them to replicate them so you opponent already has the units and paid less than you to have them i'm pretty sure we have to have seen the unit. doesnt have to be in line of sight but it has to be seen. listen to what they say in the protoss q&a Unless every other person here is wrong, you can replicate units that you own without having them and that your opponents can make, not just units they have on the field. Like prevoius poster above me said. Getting a few VR very quickly without going stargate tech.
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The replicant is a terrible idea seriously, how can someone just agree with the idea of "taking the opponent units" is seriously way too hard to understand for me.
I don't understand HOW they design their units. The shreder for exemple : do terran actually need more choke point defensive units ? Tank / PF is NOT enough CERTAINLY?!
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On October 23 2011 01:15 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 01:09 ePBuckets wrote:
whilst i like the theory of the oracle (ie. harass unit thats a spell caster that doesnt kill units), its total horse shit cause every other fk'n harass unit KILLS WORKERS.
all we wanted was a harass unit or something to micro in our warp prisms...
replicant, they even said it was costly 200/200, how much use is that REALLY gonna have though.
i feel like its just more micro intensive (when we steal spellcasters ie. viper to pull back our units T.T)
edit: every replicant scenario is just a "cute" play, that we could have dealt with another way. i don't think replicant is healthy for the game (ie why play toss if we gotta use other races units lols)
tempest is bad ass, i wish they left carrier though so we can have a choice of one or the other.
carriers vs mech, tempest vs muta.
i really dislike the oracle, i'm on the fence about the replicant, and i like the tempest.
im underwhelmed, i feel like we didnt get what we wanted.
also viper pull is going to be so fucking ridiculous, buff feedback range NAOOOOO Replicant is amazing. Make 2 full mana HT's without going HT tech. Make a couple ghosts to 'cloak and head in and emp' the terran ball to kill its medivacks/ghosts energy. People aren't thinking right. Replicant a tank to defend early expands vs bio play. Replicant a raven for worker harrass and pdd in your army. Replicant 2 banshees for some surprise harrass. TLDR--We didn't get the best units, but we got units that have a higher skill cap imo.
I think u aren't 100% clear on how the replicant works.
U can only replicate units that the opponent has and u can see.
easier version:
Too replicate a HT your opponent needs to have HT's in sight of the replicant, otherwise u cant replicate them.
It is impossible to replicate anything not in sight or on the map at all.
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Because of how expensive the Replicant is and the tech path to get there, it's unlikely to be out in time to defend against 1/1/1 while you're still on 1 base. Except maybe if you make cuts every to get a replicant ASAP, and even then the rest of your army will suck so bad it won't be able to hold off the 1/1/1.
Siege Tank: 150/125
Siege Mode: 100/100
Total cost of the first Siege Tank is therefore 250/225. That matters less as the game goes on...but if you're building a timing push that involves one siege tank (cough*1-1-1*cough), you're effectively paying 250/225 for that tank.
The replicant costs 200/200. Which means that when the 1-1-1 hits, the Toss will have a fully upgraded tank that cost them *less* than that first tank cost the Terran.
Basically, Replicants are useful for a few things and a few things only:
Any time your opponent is rushing for fast tech, the Replicant will be worth it, because it gives Protoss the upgrades for free. So one fast cloaked banshee for example costs 350/300 between the banshee and the cloaking field, and if Toss replicats that they get a cloaked banshee for 200/200.
Any time your opponent is building a highly specialized unit that opens up crazy new synergy possibilities. For example, Fungal+Storm is an undodgable 110 damage (120 vs. armored). So even if replicated infestors cost the Toss more than regular Infestors cost the Zerg, Toss with Infestors can use them in much more effective ways than Zerg can because of unforseen unit synergy.
Possibly super fast tech switching if for some reason money isn't an issue. Basically, you're maxed and banking boatloads of money, you win an engagement vs. Z but took a few losses, and you scout Z making a tech switch that would ruin your current comp, you can replicate the units you need very quickly (for a very high price) and it might be worth it. The best unit to replicate in this way would likely be Voids if you scout Z going Broodlords--Voids cost 250/150, so 200/200 isn't actually that crazy of a price bump in exchange for building them MUCH more quickly.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On October 23 2011 01:20 Deckkie wrote:
I think that there will be more units removed.
For now they only removed the Carrier and the Mothership. These are probably the 2 least viable units in the game. For this reason I would argue that they felt brave enough the remove them straight away.
I think after enough testing other units will get removed. When the Warhound turns out to be a viable anti armoured unit they will probably remove the Marauder.
Uhhmm maybe not worded it too well, but I hope that you guys understand what I mean. Also the Warhound is just an example. Yea... I was wondering why they had both warhound + marauder? Perhaps they just loved terrans ripping apart every other race so much that they thought the marauder was enough. But excellent point you raised - they probably recognised how crazy-good the marauder is against armored that they want warhound to take over it's role.
IMO, sticking to a lot of SCBW units in their original design would've ensured 90% of the problems never existed. But then again - if they did that the game wouldn't even sell - everyone likes to try new and crazy stuff !!
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On October 23 2011 01:20 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 01:18 GizmoPT wrote:On October 23 2011 01:15 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 01:09 ePBuckets wrote:
whilst i like the theory of the oracle (ie. harass unit thats a spell caster that doesnt kill units), its total horse shit cause every other fk'n harass unit KILLS WORKERS.
all we wanted was a harass unit or something to micro in our warp prisms...
replicant, they even said it was costly 200/200, how much use is that REALLY gonna have though.
i feel like its just more micro intensive (when we steal spellcasters ie. viper to pull back our units T.T)
edit: every replicant scenario is just a "cute" play, that we could have dealt with another way. i don't think replicant is healthy for the game (ie why play toss if we gotta use other races units lols)
tempest is bad ass, i wish they left carrier though so we can have a choice of one or the other.
carriers vs mech, tempest vs muta.
i really dislike the oracle, i'm on the fence about the replicant, and i like the tempest.
im underwhelmed, i feel like we didnt get what we wanted.
also viper pull is going to be so fucking ridiculous, buff feedback range NAOOOOO Replicant is amazing. Make 2 full mana HT's without going HT tech. Make a couple ghosts to 'cloak and head in and emp' the terran ball to kill its medivacks/ghosts energy. People aren't thinking right. Replicant a tank to defend early expands vs bio play. Replicant a raven for worker harrass and pdd in your army. Replicant 2 banshees for some surprise harrass. TLDR--We didn't get the best units, but we got units that have a higher skill cap imo. well you've to see the units and target them to replicate them so you opponent already has the units and paid less than you to have them Unless every other person here is wrong, you can replicate units that you own without having them and that your opponents can make, not just units they have on the field. Like prevoius poster above me said. Getting a few VR very quickly without going stargate tech.
oh no, you have to get ONE STARGATE to make a replicant of voidrays
however, replicants will let you get a fleet of 10 voidrays very quickly. replicants seem to be EXTREMELY FAST-BUILDING allowing for fast tech switches for protoss. so protoss can make 1 stargate and get 10 voidrays quickly instead of needing to build 4 stargates. 4 stargates costs 600/600 but 1 stargate is only 150/150
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On October 23 2011 01:21 s3183529 wrote:
It seems like Blizz didn't put a lot of thoughts into Toss' units, it's like: okay, i think this one looks cool, try it out cuz i'm out of idea. LOL What you said + they refuse. I repeat, REFUSE to bring back a lot of SC1 units.
Corsair? Problem solved for mutas lol
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Err, from my understanding, you have to target something with the Replicant. They mention you have to be able to SEE it (i.e. an Observer spots it in his base, and you use that sight to select it and replicate it from the other end of the map). This implies it has to be literally on the field in order to copy.
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ok so replicant, has to be in LINE OF SIGHT.
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On October 23 2011 01:23 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 01:20 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 01:18 GizmoPT wrote:On October 23 2011 01:15 ohampatu wrote:On October 23 2011 01:09 ePBuckets wrote:
whilst i like the theory of the oracle (ie. harass unit thats a spell caster that doesnt kill units), its total horse shit cause every other fk'n harass unit KILLS WORKERS.
all we wanted was a harass unit or something to micro in our warp prisms...
replicant, they even said it was costly 200/200, how much use is that REALLY gonna have though.
i feel like its just more micro intensive (when we steal spellcasters ie. viper to pull back our units T.T)
edit: every replicant scenario is just a "cute" play, that we could have dealt with another way. i don't think replicant is healthy for the game (ie why play toss if we gotta use other races units lols)
tempest is bad ass, i wish they left carrier though so we can have a choice of one or the other.
carriers vs mech, tempest vs muta.
i really dislike the oracle, i'm on the fence about the replicant, and i like the tempest.
im underwhelmed, i feel like we didnt get what we wanted.
also viper pull is going to be so fucking ridiculous, buff feedback range NAOOOOO Replicant is amazing. Make 2 full mana HT's without going HT tech. Make a couple ghosts to 'cloak and head in and emp' the terran ball to kill its medivacks/ghosts energy. People aren't thinking right. Replicant a tank to defend early expands vs bio play. Replicant a raven for worker harrass and pdd in your army. Replicant 2 banshees for some surprise harrass. TLDR--We didn't get the best units, but we got units that have a higher skill cap imo. well you've to see the units and target them to replicate them so you opponent already has the units and paid less than you to have them Unless every other person here is wrong, you can replicate units that you own without having them and that your opponents can make, not just units they have on the field. Like prevoius poster above me said. Getting a few VR very quickly without going stargate tech. oh no, you have to get ONE STARGATE to make a replicant of voidrays however, replicants will let you get a fleet of 10 voidrays very quickly. replicants seem to be EXTREMELY FAST-BUILDING allowing for fast tech switches for protoss. so protoss can make 1 stargate and get 10 voidrays quickly instead of needing to build 4 stargates. 4 stargates costs 600/600 but 1 stargate is only 150/150
they cost 200/200, rofl.
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On October 23 2011 00:10 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 00:01 BanelingXD wrote:On October 22 2011 23:48 Brotocol wrote:On October 22 2011 23:47 dump wrote:On October 22 2011 23:44 BanelingXD wrote:
Browder and Kim come off with the same kind of smug douchiness you might encounter at an Anime convention. Anyone who has ever been dumbfounded by an elitist geek knows what I'm talking about.
They haven't solved any of the fundamental problems of Protoss and seem to be at a loss as to how they can even do it. Ive been saying all along, SC2 was flawed from day one because they designed a Terran centric singleplayer game with high cool factor and left multiplayer as an afterthought. Now they're paying the price. SC2 was never built with balance between races or good roles for the base units in mind.
I am frankly astonished that they thought replacing overcosted carriers with a hard counter to mutas at the same tech level would do anything to improve PvZ.
Horrible +1. Like I said, Browder already admitted that they're going to prioritize "cool" marketable units in HotS. They aren't thinking about making the game genuinely interesting. I agree, except for 1 small adjustment to BanelingXD's post. Blizzard isn't paying the price. eSports viewers are paying the price. Long term Blizz will suffer too. I held off on buying WoL because of issues I saw in beta and after my experience here at Blizzcon i can't say I see the point in buying HotS. SC2 just doesn't make me want to play it. I bet the crowd that appreciates competetive gaming, like the esports crowd or maybe the kind of person that likes to play Go or Chess will be turned off by this. You'll get the type that likes the flashy stuff and Blizz will get money but they're sacrificing their reputation. If Blizz wanted to do something correctly they'd hire a guy with a math background who has expertise in game theory to balance the units and races. Did I mention how Browder and Kim make me feel like Tollface cloned himself? You better stop playing this game as you seem to dislike, well, everything. If SC2 just doesn't make you want to play it then stop playing it. It's just so easy.. Feels like you lose more than win by playing and thinking about this game.
I thought I said as much?
That doesn't mean I can't comment on what makes good game design. Someone above made an excellent point with the replicant:
If Toss is so badly designed that a player needs to spend 200/200/4 to field what the other guy has in order to be competitive why play Toss at all?
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On October 23 2011 01:21 WhiteDog wrote:
The replicant is a terrible idea seriously, how can someone just agree with the idea of "taking the opponent units" is seriously way too hard to understand for me.
I don't understand HOW they design their units. The shreder for exemple : do terran actually need more choke point defensive units ? Tank / PF is NOT enough CERTAINLY?!
Because it was a Protoss ability prior to SC2? Maybe that's where the idea stemmed from?
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replicant: 200/200
oracle: idk/200
tempest: 300/300
T.T
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I hate that terran have a mothership unit now... I hate that every new terran unit seems to be designed for less skill cap... If they don't make them more interesting I'm gonna go air with protoss all the time.
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so since overseer removed has changeling removed? or has it been put somwhere else?
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EPT
