On October 23 2011 01:28 ePBuckets wrote: replicant comes from robo, so maybe if we get obs and put obs in their base we'll have vision to replicate their tech.
in a defense vs 1-1-1 scenario, replicant would have to be in our army and we'd have to run out and meet the terran army, and micro the transform.
another thing to micro for the protoss army.
i realise terran is "all micro" but its not spell casting/ability micro, its unit control.
bah.
No. A proper toss player always has a Stalker at the bottom of the ramp (i generally keep 2 stalkers at ramp) when a 1/1/1 is coming.
You will see what units they have from that if you decided to not build an observer.
It wont be hard to do. Select your stalkers, right click away, hit your replicant hotkey and bam. Good 2 go. Still be easier with an observer though. Why wouldn't you make an observer or why do you think this would be 'so hard because of micro'
So.. am i the only one feeling like the replicant probably never will be used? It kinda just feels expansive and you get a less worth units from it...
There are situations where replicated units are "cheaper" than normal units, because Toss gets all upgrades for free. One tank with fast siege mode effectively costs more than a replicant, same with one banshee with cloak. There are other situations where even if the replicated units are more expensive, due to crazy synergy with Toss units they become more cost effective. Tanks and Infestors are the two units that immediately spring to mind as units that would be more dangerous when paired with certain Toss units than they are for the races they respectively "belong" too.
It is not hard to think of scenarios where Replicants could be useful. What they definitely won't be used for is just mass replicating your opponent's forces or something, because that would bankrupt you instantly for no reason. The key is identifying which units are worth replicating at different stages of the game.
On October 23 2011 01:28 ePBuckets wrote: replicant comes from robo, so maybe if we get obs and put obs in their base we'll have vision to replicate their tech.
in a defense vs 1-1-1 scenario, replicant would have to be in our army and we'd have to run out and meet the terran army, and micro the transform.
another thing to micro for the protoss army.
i realise terran is "all micro" but its not spell casting/ability micro, its unit control.
bah.
No. A proper toss player always has a Stalker at the bottom of the ramp (i generally keep 2 stalkers at ramp) when a 1/1/1 is coming.
You will see what units they have from that if you decided to not build an observer.
It wont be hard to do. Select your stalkers, right click away, hit your replicant hotkey and bam. Good 2 go. Still be easier with an observer though. Why wouldn't you make an observer or why do you think this would be 'so hard because of micro'
lol idk i forogt that i could just do that T.T i thought i'd have to bring my replicants with my army and do everything on the fly...
On October 23 2011 01:09 ePBuckets wrote: whilst i like the theory of the oracle (ie. harass unit thats a spell caster that doesnt kill units), its total horse shit cause every other fk'n harass unit KILLS WORKERS. all we wanted was a harass unit or something to micro in our warp prisms...
replicant, they even said it was costly 200/200, how much use is that REALLY gonna have though. i feel like its just more micro intensive (when we steal spellcasters ie. viper to pull back our units T.T)
edit: every replicant scenario is just a "cute" play, that we could have dealt with another way. i don't think replicant is healthy for the game (ie why play toss if we gotta use other races units lols)
tempest is bad ass, i wish they left carrier though so we can have a choice of one or the other. carriers vs mech, tempest vs muta.
i really dislike the oracle, i'm on the fence about the replicant, and i like the tempest. im underwhelmed, i feel like we didnt get what we wanted. also viper pull is going to be so fucking ridiculous, buff feedback range NAOOOOO
Replicant is amazing.
Make 2 full mana HT's without going HT tech. Make a couple ghosts to 'cloak and head in and emp' the terran ball to kill its medivacks/ghosts energy. People aren't thinking right. Replicant a tank to defend early expands vs bio play. Replicant a raven for worker harrass and pdd in your army. Replicant 2 banshees for some surprise harrass.
TLDR--We didn't get the best units, but we got units that have a higher skill cap imo.
well you've to see the units and target them to replicate them so you opponent already has the units and paid less than you to have them
Unless every other person here is wrong, you can replicate units that you own without having them and that your opponents can make, not just units they have on the field. Like prevoius poster above me said. Getting a few VR very quickly without going stargate tech.
oh no, you have to get ONE STARGATE to make a replicant of voidrays
however, replicants will let you get a fleet of 10 voidrays very quickly. replicants seem to be EXTREMELY FAST-BUILDING allowing for fast tech switches for protoss. so protoss can make 1 stargate and get 10 voidrays quickly instead of needing to build 4 stargates. 4 stargates costs 600/600 but 1 stargate is only 150/150
they cost 200/200, rofl.
Cheaper than a Collossus...would make PvP kind of hilarious. The moment someone makes a single Collossus, both sides instantly have a bunch of fully-upgraded Collossi.
You can't replicate message units. Which means replicants *must* be not cost effective in the long run. (I say long run because TLers don't do math well, and it the opponent has a unit, and you replicate it and you get full upgrades, it will be extremely cost effective. However, since 200/200 costs more than any non-massive units, it will not be cost effective)
Yeah, that's obviously the point behind not replicating massive units. If it was cost effective, you'd just sit on a small collection of the things until your opponent brought out the big guns.
I don't see it surviving Beta tbh. It's a huge gamble to pump so many resources into something that you need AHEAD of time, that could easily be worthless. E.g. a Marine, Marauder, Medivac, Viking ball. Nothing in your arsenal, or his arsenal is going to be worth building a replicant for.
Uh Voids are 250/150. So replicant Voids are somewhat more expensive, but not that much more--you're effectively paying 50 gas more and 50 minerals less to build Voids in half the time. That certainly wouldn't always be worth it, but its not hard to envision scenarios where it would be.
The replicant is a terrible idea seriously, how can someone just agree with the idea of "taking the opponent units" is seriously way too hard to understand for me.
Yeah BW would NEVER give Protoss a way to "take the opponents units"...
On October 23 2011 01:32 Paladia wrote: An ability that allows you to check what tech is researching has to be the most useless thing in the game, at no point is that of much use.
Also, it is sad to see that Protoss if forced to go robo every single game for detection.
You can find out whether that starport is making a raven or a banshee, or whether cloak is being researched.
Or if its a really late expansions you can find out the stim timing and try and delay the allin. Lots of things it can be used for. Not the best ability, but vs zerg for instance on the hathercy, we can find out if burrow is being reasearched or drop play or realy anything.
it's just something to do in team games. it's basically worthless in 1v1 until possibly the ultra-late game, but anyone who thinks this is gonna do anything to 1-1-1, ghost play, BL infestor, or anything else is kidding themselves.
A replicant siege tank is actually cheaper than the siege tank T has in the 1-1-1. it is also definitely possible to have an Immortal, a Replicated Siege Tank and a decent army by the time the 1-1-1 hits, and that would utterly wreck a 1-1-1.
On October 23 2011 00:30 Horse...falcon wrote: Swarm host doesn't feel very zerg at all...
Zerg is supposed to be very quick moving and good at taking the map. If I have a number of swarm hosts I'm going to be stuck babysitting them like brood lords. Also they don't seem that effective, in this video
it takes 9 swarm hosts 1 round (about 30ish seconds) to take out a bunker...I get that they're supposed to be used for cannon fodder against enemy artillery but zerglings kind of fulfill the same role without a super big unit to slow it down.
This... I think everyone is so obsessed with the Viper's pull that nobody is paying attention to the Swarm Host and how weak it actually looks in practice. Out of all the units they introduced for all races, it definitely looks the weakest, in the video. The rate for spawning the locusts seems so slow, there's a huge downtime in between to clean everything up.
On October 23 2011 01:32 Paladia wrote: An ability that allows you to check what tech is researching has to be the most useless thing in the game, at no point is that of much use.
Also, it is sad to see that Protoss if forced to go robo every single game for detection.
You can find out whether that starport is making a raven or a banshee, or whether cloak is being researched.
Or if its a really late expansions you can find out the stim timing and try and delay the allin. Lots of things it can be used for. Not the best ability, but vs zerg for instance on the hathercy, we can find out if burrow is being reasearched or drop play or realy anything.
Lots of examples.
Yea but you can piece all those together(At least against Terran) from other information and looking at building animations.
One thing that hasn't been said here yet. The guys over at the "SC2 Myths"-videos will have a shitload of content to work with by the time this hits the beta. Hehe
What does the oracle have? If you have 1-4 oracles flying into the terran base and the terran has his units 10 seconds away the damage output is almost given. And no kind of micro can really change that.
Thats not true though. The faster Terran reacts to destroy the entombment, the less econ damage they'll take. And the faster they react to the Oracle itself, the better chance of picking it off--which unlike killing a basically-disposable Hellion, killing an Oracle is a massive blow to the Protoss. And by the same token, the Oracle is so flimsy, yet so quick, that it is very much about picking the exact perfect time and place to get in and get out--which is contrasted to Hellions, where losing them is a given, but the question is how much damage you'll do. Here, the skill differentiator is much more about whether the Oracle comes through it alive, because Oracles aren't disposable, they are super pricey. The trick for Toss is to be constantly getting in at the right times to shut down mineral lines and key tech, without losing a super expensive unit that dies in only a few shots, and the trick for the defending player is to try to take out that Oracle really quickly and thereby deal 200/200 worth of damage to the Toss.
And every Oracle costs a shitload of gas, so if your opponent has 4 Oracles...just go kill him because he's not gonna have an army.
When I said "given" it should be pretty obv. that I am talking about high level play. High level players will use no more than 0-2 secs before they send their units to defend. And the diference between 0 and 2 seconds isn't going to be game changing (and it shouldn't be, because that would make it too unforgiving).
So what if the oracle gets out a live? This isn't very interesting. Do you really care in the mid/late game (when you have 140+ food) whether a banshee gets out alive? And when talking about the banshee, its kinda similar to the oracle in the sense that the damage is kinda "given", which makes up for boring harass. At least however this isn't the "main" function of banshee. It can actually fight in a battle.
for a harass/scout only unit the oracle is just awfull.
On October 23 2011 00:30 Horse...falcon wrote: Swarm host doesn't feel very zerg at all...
Zerg is supposed to be very quick moving and good at taking the map. If I have a number of swarm hosts I'm going to be stuck babysitting them like brood lords. Also they don't seem that effective, in this video
it takes 9 swarm hosts 1 round (about 30ish seconds) to take out a bunker...I get that they're supposed to be used for cannon fodder against enemy artillery but zerglings kind of fulfill the same role without a super big unit to slow it down.
This... I think everyone is so obsessed with the Viper's pull that nobody is paying attention to the Swarm Host and how weak it actually looks in practice. Out of all the units they introduced for all races, it definitely looks the weakest, in the video. The rate for spawning the locusts seems so slow, there's a huge downtime in between to clean everything up.
no dude, rather than burrow them all at once, burrow them in intervals that way there's always stuff pushing.
I don't see it surviving Beta tbh. It's a huge gamble to pump so many resources into something that you need AHEAD of time, that could easily be worthless. E.g. a Marine, Marauder, Medivac, Viking ball. Nothing in your arsenal, or his arsenal is going to be worth building a replicant for.
They build super fast, so its not really a gamble. Scout something like 1-1-1, make a replicant really fast. Easy peasy.
Actually, the most valuable unit to replicate for toss will be...the SCV. This means protoss gets orbital commands!
The tempest will not shut down muta...it takes a fleet beacon which takes a lot of time/resources to tech to.
It also cost 300/300.
Browder indicated that this unit was probably going to get nerfed a bit...in a video where it took a lot of tempests to take down the mutas. For 300/300, mass blink stalkers/hts/archons will be a better counter for mutas.
Love the recall ability from Nexuses....so often in late game Nexus energy went unused because CB is so apm intensive...very creative/fun idea to add this as an option for protoss.
It might be a cool idea for the OP poster to link to corresponding liquidpedia articles for each of the new units, so the public can get these updated as soon as possible with the best information.
I'm kind of disappointed they didn't show off the detachable ocular vision that the viper has. It seems pretty important.
Couple of questions for thought:
If a protoss army is fungaled, can they still be recalled?
If a swarm host unburrows after the initial spawn, does the spawn time reset? In one sense I want to say I hope so because the cooldown as it stands seems very unforgiving. On the other hand I have no idea how much it costs so =/
The rationale behind the tempest is pretty dumb... Protoss have no issues really vs mutas (blink stalkers, phoenixes, storms), otherwise we'd actually see mutas in ZvP. Someone obviously hasn't been studying the current metagame while designing the new units.
EPT
