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On October 14 2011 02:09 TiTanIum_ wrote:
I´m random, and I have to say, the hardest race is Terran. You have far too many options, far too many decisions to make, far too much information to gather, and having all that just makes the game harder, not easier. Protoss is the easiest race for me to play, followed by zerg, and if you don´t know the other races well enough, you shouldn´t talk about balance. Try it out: if you are protoss or zerg, play as terran a couple of times and you´ll see how much harder it is.
So stop whining about balance. I mean, if you are not pro, you are not in the level to choose a race. Play as all of them.
There's a huge difference between hardest race to play and strongest race.
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Nerf Terran all around. Buff Protoss in PvT. See how PvZ develops in the near future before making any further changes.
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I belieVe toss will keep getting higher and higher. We just have to wait let it play put
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On October 14 2011 02:29 talismania wrote:
those graphs are suspiciously curvy... can you just show the raw data instead of this bs smoothed version?
I can do that and I would appreciate it if you would ask a little nicer instead of calling the work of other bullshit 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qTphj.jpg)
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274 Posts
It's funny because the months where P win rate actually didn't suck are the months where MC won his championships :D
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MC owning the graphs, other than him not a single toss did very well in the GSL. i'm really tired of that.
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Interesting but hard to say value
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On October 14 2011 02:09 Caesarion wrote:
For anyone interested, I was looking at the ESV Korean Weekly stats which should provide a good picture of players trying to break into Code A.
In the Ro64:
#10: 30P 16T 18Z
#11: 23P 19T 21Z
#12: 24P 20T 20Z
lol they are trying.
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Oh man, I'm a little heartbroken lol.
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Weird how the graph was most balanced in July and then LEAST balanced 1 month later. What changes occured around that period of time?
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On October 14 2011 02:53 Phats wrote:
Weird how the graph was most balanced in July and then LEAST balanced 1 month later. What changes occured around that period of time?
1/1/1 happened. Not sure what happened in PvZ though
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On October 14 2011 01:27 Carras wrote:lol you can actually see mc´s championships there 
Controversially, you could say that MC has dragged Protoss as a whole down. Reason being, Korea is a very copy-cat scene (the only real exception is the tank/marine vs mech split for TvT). And MC always had a really timing/micro heavy style, so people who weren't as sharp as him couldn't pull it off and eventually when people learned timing defenses, then those other Protoss' disappeared too (Alicia comes to mind - I still best remember him for straight up killing MVP when poking with a 3-gate expo).
Maybe this is reading too much into MC's fall from grace and yes I'm kind of ripping off what Wolf said, but players sure like to follow the example of their best players (how many NA zergs only respect macro ala Idra?). And Genius/Hongun, who never played like MC, are the two most consistent Protoss players (as in Code S every season knock on wood).
I think the huge swings in PvX are weird; how the hell do you balance a race that goes to 60% win rates then down to 30% winrates month to month?
Some of it though is caused by patch changes, like the Roach range buff in Open 2, Fungal buff in May all caused PvZ to tank immediately, but they more or less bounced back the season after.
Obviously, PvT hasn't bounced back from August yet; but 1-1-1 isn't a patch change so that's not too surprising. PvZ is starting to come back though, so that's a good sign.
I'm curious what meta/patch changes happened in PvT between January and December to cause Protoss to go from 2 in the final 4! MC FF's imba! Hongun's all-ins too good! to Protoss barely winning.
On October 14 2011 02:42 ilikeLIONZ wrote:
MC owning the graphs, other than him not a single toss did very well in the GSL. i'm really tired of that.
Inca, Genius, Hongun and Anypro have all made deep GSL runs (only Genius has missed on a Ro4 on that list). It's not like there are a lot of non-Nestea zergs that make GSL finals either (just Fruitdealer and Losira).
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We should just have a sticky thread where people can post statistics so we can stop having a new stat-thread every day.
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On October 14 2011 02:57 Wuster wrote:
I'm curious what meta/patch changes happened in PvT between January and December to cause Protoss to go from 2 in the final 4! MC FF's imba! Hongun's all-ins too good! to Protoss barely winning.
Basically, Terrans learnt that they had a unit called the ghost. Also, KA nerf, I don't think protoss ever recovered from that actually.
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GSL has too few games to get proper stats from, each season only features 15 games that are BO3 or more and about 40 BO1's.
The representation of players in GSL is also too dependant of results from months back, for example the game might be balanced now but the player base can still be tilted heavily towards 1 race because it was unbalanced before. Of the groups in code S only the 4th player goes to the up and downs of which 40% will remain in code S on average, thus the chance in code S is only about 8*0.6 = 4.8 players on average per season.
The poor representation of players in GSL make it terrible sample to try and say something about general balance from.
Nevertheless overall stats seem to show terran is best over the first year of sc2 but it will take a while before we can say something about 1.4, so far I have a hunch only ZvP is screwed at the moment (in favor of Z)
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On October 14 2011 02:59 labbe wrote:
We should just have a sticky thread where people can post statistics so we can stop having a new stat-thread every day.
I dont see a problem with it
obviously this is causing conversation (on a day where there would otherwise not be much else to talka bout.. at least until IEM concludes).
burying stats would just cuase people to not discuss
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On October 14 2011 02:57 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 01:27 Carras wrote:lol you can actually see mc´s championships there Controversially, you could say that MC has dragged Protoss as a whole down. Reason being, Korea is a very copy-cat scene (the only real exception is the tank/marine vs mech split for TvT). And MC always had a really timing/micro heavy style, so people who weren't as sharp as him couldn't pull it off and eventually when people learned timing defenses, then those other Protoss' disappeared too (Alicia comes to mind - I still best remember him for straight up killing MVP when poking with a 3-gate expo). Maybe this is reading too much into MC's fall from grace and yes I'm kind of ripping off what Wolf said, but players sure like to follow the example of their best players (how many NA zergs only respect macro ala Idra?). And Genius/Hongun, who never played like MC, are the two most consistent Protoss players (as in Code S every season knock on wood).
I like how you say that timing pushes have been figured out but Hongun has never played like MC and has remained a consistent Protoss player.
HongUn has ALWAYS relied on timing pushes. Be it 3gate Void Ray all-in, 4gate all-in, you name it. I think I can count the number of times he has expanded on one hand. He has just been lucky enough so far to face some relatively mediocre players or else beat people on their off-day (vs MC, for example. 3 4gates in a row...). He's the Protoss version of YuGiOh (or YuG1-1-1Oh), but more successful and lucky IMO.
And Genius is just a really solid all-round player, making up for his relatively poor mechanics (compared to MC/MVP et al) with being FAR ahead of his time in the metagame.
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well the korean winrates will be t favored for some time unless you buff the other races into an overpowered state. The game evolves still and with that many terrans the chance is super high for a new strat. And as there are only a few protoss and zerg players you have to face ... you don't have to fear to much surprises and don't have to train 2 or 3 different zerg players styles.
I always thought its easier for the underrepresented race. But somehow it doesn't apply to the gsl with all the different playstyles around still.
But i guess if you have 2 terrans (especially if they play so differently) 1 zerg and a toss that play on another level, there is no suprise about winrates there hehe.
So as far as it concerns me, i am not sure if the gsl shows that terran is op or just because of the release switches to terran (where they were op), that pulled alot of good pro team players to terran and discouraged the other races (Idra is a well known example for that). The only thing i got out of the gsl thing is that terran scales better the higher the skill of the person is.
Its funny noob level, terran rocks ... pro level, terran rocks (not op in my eyes, but as i said before not seen proof for or against it), but everything in between terran is problematic.
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Did you measure it based on averages or total games? Cause when there are more of 1 race and you count total wins, generally those with a bigger pool will perform better.
Games fine, if anything protoss needs a tiny bit of help but they suffer from poor race design and reliance on 2-3 units to carry their race which can be picked off when the other races play correctly.
I still believe terran just have it figured out right now and the meta game still needs to shift more after this patch.
To all the people who cry about Terran. Final 4 in GSL Code S are terran. Problem? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I believe that the main problem with protoss is just how obvious it is to play. Think back to the beginning of the game. The races that did well were the ones that were most intuitive. Zergs were learning to spit larva perfectly, and Terrans stuck to mmm, because it was found to be super powerful. Tosses showed their trump cards (colossi, voidrays, and HTs) much sooner than the other races. Because they were ahead of the game with using their other units, the other races started losing a ton and protoss seemed too powerful. Therefore HTs and voidrays were nerfed, and only after that did we start to see spellcasters from the other races. These nerfs plus change in strategy from the other races acted to add insult to injury, and now the result is what we see now.
Obviously there are other possibilities for protoss, like the warp prism drops that just became more viable, but after losing those earlier strategies, it just feels like grasping at straws.
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EPT
