EPTBtw, the 2 good protoss peaks are MC, so fucking sad -.-
[GSL] Race Winrate Graphs - Page 13
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XupinatoR
Spain125 Posts
Btw, the 2 good protoss peaks are MC, so fucking sad -.- | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
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Not_That
287 Posts
Also if there were 1 Zerg player in the entire world, most Terrans would have never played a TvZ in their life, while that 1 Zerg played ZvT a lot (50% of his games?), so he would have a significant advantage over every player he met, assuming skill were equal. But now I'm just poking fun at your example. Trying to explain Terran dominance by saying they have more highly evolved meta game (due to larger amount of T players putting their brain together) is naivety. Is it so far fetched that in a game with vastly 3 different races, one of them has the longer side of the stick in balance? I read this thread and others like it, and it seems like some people will accept any reason whatsoever as for why Terran has no advantage. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On October 14 2011 15:49 j0ker wrote: Anyone who says that the amount of people playing a race has no barring on winrates is being ignorant. 1 race having more players playing it by a significant margin benefits that race greatly. The builds and metagame develop at an exponentially faster rate because of all the players working at them. Look at it from an extreme. Say there was only 1 zerg player in the entire world and the rest terran. Every other terran would be working towards the unstoppable TvZ build, and regardless of whether they communicated directly, they would be studying replays and evolving their builds until they achieved one that this lonely zerg could not beat. To overcome this build he would be forced to rack his brain and his brain alone for hours on end and when he finally solved the build, he would be facing another powerful build that was borne through thousands of terran man-hours. You could give this zerg a significant buff to his race and hypothetically assume he is the most talented player in the world, and you would still be left with a TvTvTvTvTvETC in the GSL. Now obviously the example was a gross exaggeration, but the point stands. More high level minds working towards a common solution will find that solution faster than a group with less high level minds working towards its counterpart. I am not here to say that Terran isn't overpowered, it very well may be, and I do not know the actual extent of Terran's popularity in Korea, but it is something to think about. If anything, if there was only one Zerg player in the world, then there would barely be any XvZ evolution, because everyone would only practice PvT and their mirrors - you know, stuff that's actually useful to them in a tournament setting. And you can even observe this effect with the current composition of Code S. TvT is easily the fastest evolving Terran matchup, because they all practice it so much. On the other hand, TvP on the Terran side is probably the least evolved matchup in the game - cause why would Terrans innovate in it, when they can roll face easily with what they have currently, and there aren't many Protoss out there anyway? Chew on this: Protoss was actually the most represented race in the early GSLs, as well as on KR ladder shortly after release. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
somebody should do an analysis where you remove the results of the most succesful player respectively - I'd love to see GSL-winrates when you don't factor in the dominance of MC, who was just ahead of anyone at a certain point | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong748 Posts
On October 14 2011 10:22 Daralii wrote: Flux Vanes is another thing. It was removed because void ray all ins were too good in 2v2, but with the 6 second spore crawler burrow time and the incredible strength of fungal, I have to think Blizz could afford to bring it back. I'm not sure about flux vanes tbh - I can see it being possibly being too strong in certain situations. But eitherway, it would be nice to have some sort of upgrades back, regardless of what it is, since they took two away from protoss.. The games just plainly less fun when you have less research upgrades for units. | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
On October 14 2011 15:49 j0ker wrote: Anyone who says that the amount of people playing a race has no barring on winrates is being ignorant. 1 race having more players playing it by a significant margin benefits that race greatly. The builds and metagame develop at an exponentially faster rate because of all the players working at them. Your logic is flawed. And you are wrong with your stats. The Protoss in Code S pretty much only practice TvP while the Terrans hardly practice that MU as they barely face any Protoss, they focus on TvT. There arent more Terran players than there are Protoss. GM in Korea has 34% Protoss, 38% Terran, pretty much even. It is just that Protoss has a harder time reaching the very top, both on ladder and in Code S. There isn't anything magical about players picking Terran which makes them better. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On October 14 2011 15:49 j0ker wrote: Anyone who says that the amount of people playing a race has no barring on winrates is being ignorant. 1 race having more players playing it by a significant margin benefits that race greatly. The builds and metagame develop at an exponentially faster rate because of all the players working at them. From earlier in the threads: On October 14 2011 02:09 Caesarion wrote: For anyone interested, I was looking at the ESV Korean Weekly stats which should provide a good picture of players trying to break into Code A. In the Ro64: #10: 30P 16T 18Z #11: 23P 19T 21Z #12: 24P 20T 20Z It isn't that there are just not enough Protoss players. It is that once Protoss pros reach a certain level, P becomes a lot harder to win with than T or Z. | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On October 14 2011 01:22 Fleebu wrote: Maybe you should also look at the percentage of people in Korea who actually play Protoss... Protoss is the most played race on the Korean server. Terran is the most played by Pros. Not saying this means anything like Toss being underpowered or whatever, just pointing out some information for you  . | ||
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Syth
36 Posts
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blacklist_member
Australia318 Posts
On October 14 2011 20:31 Syth wrote: Make Protoss stronger but make them harder at the same time. Most people who have played all three races to a reasonable level can probably vouch for their simplicity. If they made them a little more mechanically demanding they could make them stronger. I'm all for this The simplicity of the race means there's a skill ceiling IMO. A race like terran can be improved upon alot more.. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
On October 14 2011 14:24 Fanatic-Templar wrote: In other words, you say that after defeating a Templar based Protoss army, you should be able to overrun their base No sir. It's not the spawning with storm that bothers me, it's the warping in with storm. So for example on Shakuras Plateau, the protoss natural, main, and far away third (assuming hypothetically they took the natural of the base parallel to theirs as their third) are all equally protected. Remove warp in from templar and reinstate KA, I'd be cool with. (How that would even work I dunno but talking hypothetical still). Also I like that to storm drop mineral lines you have to use a warp prism and risk getting caught and losing the templar inside. With warp in storm all you risk is a warp prism and you get to warp in templar anywhere on the map. the victorious Protoss army won't be able to overrun your base if they win the battle because their damage-dealers, the High Templar, have expended themselves to win the battle. Chargelots are pretty good. If you've killed all their medivacs lategame it's very hard as terran to mass another army because the protoss just throws upgraded chargelots at them, you are forced to stim and kite like hell, it takes up a lot of your apm, stim costs you health, sometimes you don't have an airport runway to kite down. Basically small numbers of MM vs chargelots is fucking hard work. Throw a colossus in to force vikings and you're onto a winner. | ||
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GLLvz
Norway122 Posts
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GLLvz
Norway122 Posts
On October 14 2011 20:21 althaz wrote: Protoss is the most played race on the Korean server. Terran is the most played by Pros. Not saying this means anything like Toss being underpowered or whatever, just pointing out some information for you .If u say that, people could say "Hey, Terran 10 times easier to play?" Because More people become Pro with terran? | ||
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Ziktomini
United Kingdom377 Posts
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CuHz
United States354 Posts
On October 14 2011 02:09 Caesarion wrote: For anyone interested, I was looking at the ESV Korean Weekly stats which should provide a good picture of players trying to break into Code A. In the Ro64: #10: 30P 16T 18Z #11: 23P 19T 21Z #12: 24P 20T 20Z It isn't that there are just not enough Protoss players. It is that once Protoss pros reach a certain level, P becomes a lot harder to win with than T or Z.[/QUOTE] wow look at those protoss numbers; i ddnt know it was that much more protosses. | ||
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
My question was obvious I feel dumb now | ||
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StimedSheep
United States51 Posts
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InFi.asc
Germany518 Posts
On October 15 2011 03:28 StimedSheep wrote: This reminds me of the very beginning of Starcraft. For those who might remember when the game first came out there were periods of time where each race was trying to figure out ways to combat different attack styles. I remember people saying that 6 pools were overpowered and could not be beaten. Anyways relax and enjoy the game and try something crazy. = \ I'm really not playing anymore, just watching. I can't really enjoy it if the better player does not win. And sadly there have been some matches where i felt that is true. This is not the way an ESPORTs game should display itself  | ||
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caradoc
Canada3022 Posts
On October 14 2011 01:22 Alejandrisha wrote: He doesn't really watch the GSL I've talked to him about it haha He doesn't watch the GSL? The lead balance designer responsible for balancing the game doesn't even watch the top level of play? my heart just sank. I had somehow hoped that he would, as a core job requirement, keep on top of things like this. I had always thought the balance statistics that they released were just to provide the community with one extra small facet of data to supplement discussion. Not that they depended so heavily on internal statistics. *sigh Well I guess I'll go back to practicing phoenix openings vs. 1-1-1 with a heavy heart. | ||
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