|
On October 14 2011 13:42 PrinceXizor wrote:
so pretty much this goes towards my theory of meta evolution matchups change based on peoples ability to overcome the current FOTM, once a new strat is figured out, the winrate for that race drops, and the opposing winrate increases until that strategy is figured out.
While that's certainly true to some extent, there have obviously been some fairly large patch balance changes in there too... o.O
|
On October 14 2011 13:42 PrinceXizor wrote:
so pretty much this goes towards my theory of meta evolution matchups change based on peoples ability to overcome the current FOTM, once a new strat is figured out, the winrate for that race drops, and the opposing winrate increases until that strategy is figured out.
Or it gets patched.
Which happens a lot.
So...
|
On October 14 2011 12:55 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 12:36 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On October 14 2011 12:04 Daralii wrote:
Colossi and sentries exist to attempt to balance out the weakness of gateway units. It all goes back to the warp gate. Yes, but if we have to lose one of Colossi or Warp tech to get stronger Gateway units, then I'd easily choose to sacrifice Colossi. At least we could get Khaydarin Amulet back. May I be the first to say fuuuuck the Amulet. Kill a whole protoss army and then arrive at their base to 4 fully charged HTs with storm and 10 chargelots? Buff toss some other way please. Dont worry about it, you can just instantly EMP them with your dirt cheap ghosts. God knows he cant stop you.
|
On October 14 2011 01:29 Roxy wrote:
Very Interesting
It is a shame that all of the skilled players chose terran.. wish i could see some protoss innovate new strategies but alas all of the protoss players are scrubs
I guess they just pick terran because it is the hardest race to play and we all know koreans love high APM
I don't know if you were being sarcastic or not, but most pros say that Terran is the easiest race to play. Thats why MC has said that he would switch to Terran if he went to code b and HerO said if he doesn't place well at MLG he was switching to Terran as well.
|
KA doesn't need to be 25 energies, how about 15-20. Problem solved, no more insta warp, help Protoss to defend in a couple second too.
|
First post here but i thought i had something to add, the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade for High Templar was removed in patch 1.3.0, which was in March.
On the first graph Protoss was at a high during March but then the slump they have been in recently occurred shortly afterwards.
Would re-introducing Khaydarin Amulet help Protoss' situation somewhat?
|
On October 14 2011 12:55 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 12:36 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On October 14 2011 12:04 Daralii wrote:
Colossi and sentries exist to attempt to balance out the weakness of gateway units. It all goes back to the warp gate. Yes, but if we have to lose one of Colossi or Warp tech to get stronger Gateway units, then I'd easily choose to sacrifice Colossi. At least we could get Khaydarin Amulet back. May I be the first to say fuuuuck the Amulet. Kill a whole protoss army and then arrive at their base to 4 fully charged HTs with storm and 10 chargelots? Buff toss some other way please.
Ah, the feeling of taking down a Tank line in Brood War only to find Tanks and Spider Mines blocking a choke just further on. Good times.
Okay, so I'll concede that playing against Protoss might become more frustrating, but frankly, I've never heard anybody compliment the current Protoss deathball a-moving. So look on the bright side. The point should be about balance, anyway, not whether it's annoying. Even if it helps the Protoss survive, you've still gained a massive advantage by killing his army. He might be able to survive by warping in Storms, but he can't move out. You've got map control, and while you're denying him expansions, every warped-in Storm that keeps him alive costs him 150 gas.
Also, High Templar dynamic is, unlike almost every other unit except the Baneling, based on constant renewal. Basically, once Templar have cast their Storms, they're pretty much useless except as Archon production. So whether you win or lose the battle, you're going to need to resupply those Templar.
In other words, you say that after defeating a Templar based Protoss army, you should be able to overrun their base, which is not something I necessarily agree with, but assuming this is true, wouldn't the inverse also be true? Except the victorious Protoss army won't be able to overrun your base if they win the battle because their damage-dealers, the High Templar, have expended themselves to win the battle.
Khaydarin Amulet High Templar are a defensive unit. They're slow, they're weak, they're exceptionally vulnerable to EMPs and they have no ability to support an army in subsequent engagement. This makes them terrible as aggressive units. And I, unlike others, do not recommend nerfing Ghosts, because I think they help in limiting Templars' offensive power, and that's a dynamic necessary for better games. Protoss needs a defensive advantage, and Khaydarin Amulet is a huge one. Otherwise, Protoss simply can't recover from a mistake or poor engagement like Terran or Zerg can. Khaydarin Amulet allows that.
It also makes Protoss efficient in small groups, as you noted. Small groups of Templar and Zealots can do good damage while not bankrupting the Protoss the way losing Colossi will. In this way, it allows Protoss to be more active across the map, encourages multitasking and territorial control. All in all, it not only helps make the game better balanced, it makes it more interesting to watch and play, from my perspective at least. But then I've hated the Colossus since Beta.
Anyway, my favourite matches ever were back in the day of Warp-in Storm, it's pretty much the only time in the history of StarCraft 2 that I considered PvT more exciting than ZvT. San vs. SC on Terminus remains one of my favourite matches of all time. For comparison's sake, what would you recommend as a good PvT?
|
Just here to say KA was never OP. EMP/Snipe always outranges the HT so if a storm ever got off it was always the Terrans poor decision to attack without EMP or the Terrans poor spellcasting ability by not Snipe/EMP the HT in time. On top of that Storm Drops on mineral lines aren't close to OP either because you have 4 seconds to just move ur workers and little harm is done, compare that to hellion drops, Fungal Drops Stim rine drop, Baneling drop, Pretty ridiculous how Zerg can drop 2 full energy infestors and clean out a whole mineral line and there is nothing you can do about it once the Infestors are in position
Only Thing that KA did for protoss was increase damage potential because you had more storms to work with and also be used as a late game harass unit by storm dropping. At higher level play Ghosts will always be better than HT because emp is larger radius and way outranges feedback and psi storm has to be sat in in order to do major damage where as emp is instant. At this point PvT would be more balanced if both HT and Ghosts didnt exist. So while adding KA back into the game will temporarily allow a more skilled Protoss to win, longer down the road something has to be done about the range of ghosts, and the crazed utility of EMP. and all the tournament results and statistics reflect that.
|
Thanks for the graphs! If it's easy, do you think you could upload win rates for individual leagues as well? If not, then oh well, but I do think it would be cool to see.
|
it's a bit ridiculous that protoss need robo+robobay+prism+prismspeed just to land a storm in PvT these days
|
protoss.. what have david kim done to you? : (((
|
On October 14 2011 10:29 sopporku wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 10:26 Fig wrote:On October 14 2011 10:23 sopporku wrote:On October 14 2011 10:22 Daralii wrote:On October 14 2011 09:58 Zealot Lord wrote:
Back when Terran players only used nothing but MMM, yes templars with amulet looked too strong; but what about now though? Its quite clear to me that some of the things which used to be considered imbalanced are most likely no longer overpowered with pro players improving at such a fast rate, as they change the effectiveness of different units. I am 100% sure that had the game begun with players that could use snipe as well as they could with ghosts now, they would have never taken out khydarian amulet. Flux Vanes is another thing. It was removed because void ray all ins were too good in 2v2, but with the 6 second spore crawler burrow time and the incredible strength of fungal, I have to think Blizz could afford to bring it back. VRs are already tough as shit for zerg to deal with and it derails zerg completely. where is your proof for this? It is much more widely accepted that FFE voidray openings vs Zerg are terrible nowadays. because an FFE opening brings it out too slow. tell me, how's that kiting of spores working out? zerg must spend all his time microing spores around his base and then ultimately never doing any damage because the VRs just run off and laugh while attacking some drones or tech buildings? 7 range is bullshit for a unit that can "charge" to do 1000000 damage, even to unarmored. 1 VR kills 1 queen. It takes far more micro and multitasking for a zerg to defend VRs early game than it takes to lolchronospam VRs. the person who wins is the person who forces the other to waste time not macroing. VRs do just that, because protoss gains map control, because protoss can insta-kill any tech buildings you try to put up until you mass quieens, derailing 150 minerals per queen from teching, because spores dont shoot immediately and require 6 seconds at which point a VR flies off and you have to uproot again and chase. I don't see or understand why anyone can point to spores as the reason zerg should be fine against air early game. it costs drones/larvae/minerals, and then it doesn't even shoot unless the protoss is stupid enough to sit there and be shot by it. spores can be kited infinity times. queens can be focused down and killed, particularly by a VR player who precharges on other buildings to get charged damage on queens. If protoss air openings are so bad, why am I seeing more and more protoss using them on ladder? 9 out of 10 will do it. bad openings are bad, refined openings put the proof in the pudding of the shit that is VR. theres a reason flux vanes were removed.
Oh god, your 150 unit that you already have for every hatchery and should have additionally to spread creep that grants you vision and increased movement speed for your units barely loses to a 250/150 unit from a committed tech path from your opponent. You have to build more than one spore crawler per base to defend them (each one being able to defeat a voidray 1v1), oh no. Blizzard should give spore colonies instant root and 10 range so voidrays can't do anything. That way you can bring them with your army too to counter colossi on creep, since colossi are so hard for zergs to deal with.
I like your unbiased facts like voidrays deal 1000000 damage, and how it supposedly takes a godlike amount of micro to hit the button to uproot, select a new area, then root it. Though I am curious about how you kite a 7 range sporecrawler with a 6 range voidray, unless you mean "avoid" which is a completely different word.
|
I came to a conclusion...
IMMvp need's to stop winning.
|
Khaydarin amulet back would be great. I'm still very angry that they removed it even though I already got used to it.
|
On October 14 2011 14:45 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 10:29 sopporku wrote:On October 14 2011 10:26 Fig wrote:On October 14 2011 10:23 sopporku wrote:On October 14 2011 10:22 Daralii wrote:On October 14 2011 09:58 Zealot Lord wrote:
Back when Terran players only used nothing but MMM, yes templars with amulet looked too strong; but what about now though? Its quite clear to me that some of the things which used to be considered imbalanced are most likely no longer overpowered with pro players improving at such a fast rate, as they change the effectiveness of different units. I am 100% sure that had the game begun with players that could use snipe as well as they could with ghosts now, they would have never taken out khydarian amulet. Flux Vanes is another thing. It was removed because void ray all ins were too good in 2v2, but with the 6 second spore crawler burrow time and the incredible strength of fungal, I have to think Blizz could afford to bring it back. VRs are already tough as shit for zerg to deal with and it derails zerg completely. where is your proof for this? It is much more widely accepted that FFE voidray openings vs Zerg are terrible nowadays. because an FFE opening brings it out too slow. tell me, how's that kiting of spores working out? zerg must spend all his time microing spores around his base and then ultimately never doing any damage because the VRs just run off and laugh while attacking some drones or tech buildings? 7 range is bullshit for a unit that can "charge" to do 1000000 damage, even to unarmored. 1 VR kills 1 queen. It takes far more micro and multitasking for a zerg to defend VRs early game than it takes to lolchronospam VRs. the person who wins is the person who forces the other to waste time not macroing. VRs do just that, because protoss gains map control, because protoss can insta-kill any tech buildings you try to put up until you mass quieens, derailing 150 minerals per queen from teching, because spores dont shoot immediately and require 6 seconds at which point a VR flies off and you have to uproot again and chase. I don't see or understand why anyone can point to spores as the reason zerg should be fine against air early game. it costs drones/larvae/minerals, and then it doesn't even shoot unless the protoss is stupid enough to sit there and be shot by it. spores can be kited infinity times. queens can be focused down and killed, particularly by a VR player who precharges on other buildings to get charged damage on queens. If protoss air openings are so bad, why am I seeing more and more protoss using them on ladder? 9 out of 10 will do it. bad openings are bad, refined openings put the proof in the pudding of the shit that is VR. theres a reason flux vanes were removed. Oh god, your 150 unit that you already have for every hatchery and should have additionally to spread creep that grants you vision and increased movement speed for your units barely loses to a 250/150 unit from a committed tech path from your opponent. You have to build more than one spore crawler per base to defend them (each one being able to defeat a voidray 1v1), oh no. Blizzard should give spore colonies instant root and 10 range so voidrays can't do anything. That way you can bring them with your army too to counter colossi on creep, since colossi are so hard for zergs to deal with. I like your unbiased facts like voidrays deal 1000000 damage, and how it supposedly takes a godlike amount of micro to hit the button to uproot, select a new area, then root it. Though I am curious about how you kite a 7 range sporecrawler with a 6 range voidray, unless you mean "avoid" which is a completely different word.
I completely agree with you, how many times have you seen pro zergs lose flat out to a voidray opening? I haven't beaten anyone with it any time ive tried it in PLATINUM league. Especially since nowadays zergs have more than one queen as well as spore crawlers up in time to deal with the void rays
|
On October 14 2011 08:33 Pointillism wrote:
Very interesting graphs there, would love to see the dates of patches added to them.
I saw this post before I went out to dinner. I've posted some of the changed earlier and where they landed on the timeline. I think this is a more comprehensive list:
1.1.0 was the infamous Ultra bug and reaper build nerf.
That happened in the last two rounds of GSL 1 and was pretty obvious in Fruitdealer - Top.
1.1.2 was a bunch of tweaks to weaken Marauder drops (slower medivacs, more building hp), oh and the Roach buff.
This came out before and during the opening rounds of GSL 2 and was pretty much why we called SanZenith, SadZenith for a few seasons (his games against Check).
1.2 - phoenix buff, obs buff, void change (bonus to massive, no more flux vanes), scv repair nerf a whole slew of things to help Protoss out
Came out early in GSL January, didn't seem to have much immediate effect.
1.3 - The day Protoss cried, KA gone, Archon toilet nerf, Fungal buff, stim nerf and emp minor nerf
Hit right before the world championships
1.3.3 - Archons buff, WG nerf, Ghost cost change, other minor changes (Thor energy, Infestor speed, pylon range, bunker salvage, spore root time, sentry build time)
Came out right before the Super Tournament
1.4 - Immortal buff, Warp Prism buff, blink nerf, Hellion nerf, Infestor nerf
Hit Korea around the round of 16 I think of GSL October
|
We all kinda knew how it looked like but with the exacts numbers that's even scarier. I think that won't change for a few seasons at least in Code S Terran will still be so dominant
|
Wooooow look at that percentage O_O
|
dang, Protoss players need to step their game up. Or Terrans need to town theirs down.
|
Anyone who says that the amount of people playing a race has no barring on winrates is being ignorant. 1 race having more players playing it by a significant margin benefits that race greatly. The builds and metagame develop at an exponentially faster rate because of all the players working at them.
Look at it from an extreme. Say there was only 1 zerg player in the entire world and the rest terran. Every other terran would be working towards the unstoppable TvZ build, and regardless of whether they communicated directly, they would be studying replays and evolving their builds until they achieved one that this lonely zerg could not beat. To overcome this build he would be forced to rack his brain and his brain alone for hours on end and when he finally solved the build, he would be facing another powerful build that was borne through thousands of terran man-hours. You could give this zerg a significant buff to his race and hypothetically assume he is the most talented player in the world, and you would still be left with a TvTvTvTvTvETC in the GSL.
Now obviously the example was a gross exaggeration, but the point stands. More high level minds working towards a common solution will find that solution faster than a group with less high level minds working towards its counterpart. I am not here to say that Terran isn't overpowered, it very well may be, and I do not know the actual extent of Terran's popularity in Korea, but it is something to think about.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
