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[GSL] Race Winrate Graphs - Page 11

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Fanatic-Templar
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada5819 Posts
October 14 2011 03:03 GMT
#201
On October 14 2011 07:53 Serpico wrote:
Please remove warpgates and larva inject so you can make individual units stronger. It just feels bad to have to have shitty units at certain points in the game because of those mechanics. I understand the swarm thing is a theme for zerg....but just make it fun to play rather than trying too hard to match that theme. Warpgates just suck because of how much the turn the defender's advantage on its head and force gateway units to be subpar.


It's not the Warpgates, it the Colossi, as I understand it. Colossi are an immense drain on resources and versatility - not only are they exceedingly expensive, but you need to protect them with your Gateway units, causing the "deathball". Plus there are units that exist solely to kill them. Gateway units are balanced around Warp Gate mechanics, but also the assumption that they will have Colossus dealing damage and as such don't need to be especially destructive themselves. And Khaydarin Amulet was nerfed because it offered a fantastic defender's advantage, which when added to the offensive power of the Colossus deathball, made the Protoss exceedingly strong on both fronts.
I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.
Daralii
Profile Joined March 2010
United States16991 Posts
October 14 2011 03:04 GMT
#202
Colossi and sentries exist to attempt to balance out the weakness of gateway units. It all goes back to the warp gate.
Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth!
SeeDLiNg
Profile Joined January 2010
United States690 Posts
October 14 2011 03:11 GMT
#203
Talk about balance all you want... but how big the curve swings are really show how meta changes and adaptation are having an effect on the game. Very interesting and fun graphs imo
-y0shi-
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany994 Posts
October 14 2011 03:12 GMT
#204
On October 14 2011 11:33 oxxo wrote:
Interesting to see the changes as the metagame evolved.

P is not 1-dimensional. P has/had the most options for all-ins. People learned to defend them. Code S Ps have not changed their game very much since early SC2 while T/Z have evolved tremendously. It'll be fine once the bad Ps are kicked out of Code S and the good ones make it in.


Did you see those "new protosses"? Did you watch code a? 2 Base all ins a ll day, I cant really remember any real macro game. Do you honestly believe there isnt a protoss in code a OR s that can play real games and that they all decide to just 2 base all in because they cant play straight up games?
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
October 14 2011 03:20 GMT
#205
On October 14 2011 10:11 Reborn8u wrote:

Wait a second, isn't the GSL full of terrans because they knocked out the protoss players over time? It's not a random sample group we're talking about. And GM in Korea is pretty evenly spread between races, last time I checked. It's just that the top it is full of Terran. "The stats are useless because they are bias" no actually your post is useless because it is bias.

The fact that every stat and graph I've ever seen shows Terran dominance since release is statistically significant. Any graph I've ever seen shows terran having higher peaks and less severe valleys. This whole "better players pick terran" is moronic and I've seen 0 proof of that. Plenty of former BW pro's didn't pick terran but get smashed no name terrans.

This whole "balance doesn't affect lower levels" is crap too. If it is imbalanced at the very top, that imbalance would ripple through most mid-high level play. Meaning that a player picking the overpowered race will do better than he would as the other races. Especially when most of those less skilled players are watching the top players and copying there strategies and play styles. In starcraft 2 the dissemination of ideas is very fast.


This post needs to be stickied on the front of every single PvX discussion thread.
Fanatic-Templar
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada5819 Posts
October 14 2011 03:36 GMT
#206
On October 14 2011 12:04 Daralii wrote:
Colossi and sentries exist to attempt to balance out the weakness of gateway units. It all goes back to the warp gate.


Yes, but if we have to lose one of Colossi or Warp tech to get stronger Gateway units, then I'd easily choose to sacrifice Colossi. At least we could get Khaydarin Amulet back.
I bear this sig to commemorate the loss of the team icon that commemorated Oversky's 2008-2009 Proleague Round 1 performance.
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
October 14 2011 03:55 GMT
#207
On October 14 2011 12:36 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2011 12:04 Daralii wrote:
Colossi and sentries exist to attempt to balance out the weakness of gateway units. It all goes back to the warp gate.


Yes, but if we have to lose one of Colossi or Warp tech to get stronger Gateway units, then I'd easily choose to sacrifice Colossi. At least we could get Khaydarin Amulet back.


May I be the first to say fuuuuck the Amulet. Kill a whole protoss army and then arrive at their base to 4 fully charged HTs with storm and 10 chargelots?

Buff toss some other way please.
Fig
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1324 Posts
October 14 2011 04:01 GMT
#208
On October 14 2011 12:55 The KY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2011 12:36 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
On October 14 2011 12:04 Daralii wrote:
Colossi and sentries exist to attempt to balance out the weakness of gateway units. It all goes back to the warp gate.


Yes, but if we have to lose one of Colossi or Warp tech to get stronger Gateway units, then I'd easily choose to sacrifice Colossi. At least we could get Khaydarin Amulet back.


May I be the first to say fuuuuck the Amulet. Kill a whole protoss army and then arrive at their base to 4 fully charged HTs with storm and 10 chargelots?

Buff toss some other way please.

I'm sorry that you just want to win in one huge blob vs blob battle that lasts less than 5 seconds. Those are so fun to watch. Heaven forbid that the toss have a chance at getting back in the game.
Can't elope with my cantaloupe
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 04:06:43
October 14 2011 04:05 GMT
#209
On October 14 2011 13:01 Fig wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2011 12:55 The KY wrote:
On October 14 2011 12:36 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
On October 14 2011 12:04 Daralii wrote:
Colossi and sentries exist to attempt to balance out the weakness of gateway units. It all goes back to the warp gate.


Yes, but if we have to lose one of Colossi or Warp tech to get stronger Gateway units, then I'd easily choose to sacrifice Colossi. At least we could get Khaydarin Amulet back.


May I be the first to say fuuuuck the Amulet. Kill a whole protoss army and then arrive at their base to 4 fully charged HTs with storm and 10 chargelots?

Buff toss some other way please.

I'm sorry that you just want to win in one huge blob vs blob battle that lasts less than 5 seconds. Those are so fun to watch. Heaven forbid that the toss have a chance at getting back in the game.


...what are you talking about?

If you kill the opponents whole army and keep your own, you should have an advantage. KA didn't allow that. KA was OP. It got removed. No discussion needed - it's gone and isn't coming back and I am happy about that.

If you are behind and you want to get back in the game, you have to outplay your opponent. T click isn't outplaying your opponent.

Before I get some bullshit reply about how Terran can do this and that - I play terran and toss and I think terran is a bit OP. KA was still dumb.
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
October 14 2011 04:10 GMT
#210
On October 14 2011 13:05 The KY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2011 13:01 Fig wrote:
On October 14 2011 12:55 The KY wrote:
On October 14 2011 12:36 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
On October 14 2011 12:04 Daralii wrote:
Colossi and sentries exist to attempt to balance out the weakness of gateway units. It all goes back to the warp gate.


Yes, but if we have to lose one of Colossi or Warp tech to get stronger Gateway units, then I'd easily choose to sacrifice Colossi. At least we could get Khaydarin Amulet back.


May I be the first to say fuuuuck the Amulet. Kill a whole protoss army and then arrive at their base to 4 fully charged HTs with storm and 10 chargelots?

Buff toss some other way please.

I'm sorry that you just want to win in one huge blob vs blob battle that lasts less than 5 seconds. Those are so fun to watch. Heaven forbid that the toss have a chance at getting back in the game.


...what are you talking about?

If you kill the opponents whole army and keep your own, you should have an advantage. KA didn't allow that. KA was OP. It got removed. No discussion needed - it's gone and isn't coming back and I am happy about that.

If you are behind and you want to get back in the game, you have to outplay your opponent. T click isn't outplaying your opponent.

Before I get some bullshit reply about how Terran can do this and that - I play terran and toss and I think terran is a bit OP. KA was still dumb.

Then do you also think the planetary fortress should be removed? Does the same thing as KA except you only have to pay the 150 gas once.
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 04:14:19
October 14 2011 04:12 GMT
#211
On October 14 2011 13:10 iamke55 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2011 13:05 The KY wrote:
On October 14 2011 13:01 Fig wrote:
On October 14 2011 12:55 The KY wrote:
On October 14 2011 12:36 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
On October 14 2011 12:04 Daralii wrote:
Colossi and sentries exist to attempt to balance out the weakness of gateway units. It all goes back to the warp gate.


Yes, but if we have to lose one of Colossi or Warp tech to get stronger Gateway units, then I'd easily choose to sacrifice Colossi. At least we could get Khaydarin Amulet back.


May I be the first to say fuuuuck the Amulet. Kill a whole protoss army and then arrive at their base to 4 fully charged HTs with storm and 10 chargelots?

Buff toss some other way please.

I'm sorry that you just want to win in one huge blob vs blob battle that lasts less than 5 seconds. Those are so fun to watch. Heaven forbid that the toss have a chance at getting back in the game.


...what are you talking about?

If you kill the opponents whole army and keep your own, you should have an advantage. KA didn't allow that. KA was OP. It got removed. No discussion needed - it's gone and isn't coming back and I am happy about that.

If you are behind and you want to get back in the game, you have to outplay your opponent. T click isn't outplaying your opponent.

Before I get some bullshit reply about how Terran can do this and that - I play terran and toss and I think terran is a bit OP. KA was still dumb.

Then do you also think the planetary fortress should be removed? Does the same thing as KA except you only have to pay the 150 gas once.


As a matter of fact, yes I think the planetary is a fucking terrible idea.

EDIT: Seriously let me stress this - fuck planetaries. And fuck marauders. I'm going to go to bed now because I'm drunk and you should never drunk-post, kids.
K3Nyy
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1961 Posts
October 14 2011 04:14 GMT
#212
On October 14 2011 10:29 sopporku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2011 10:26 Fig wrote:
On October 14 2011 10:23 sopporku wrote:
On October 14 2011 10:22 Daralii wrote:
On October 14 2011 09:58 Zealot Lord wrote:
Back when Terran players only used nothing but MMM, yes templars with amulet looked too strong; but what about now though? Its quite clear to me that some of the things which used to be considered imbalanced are most likely no longer overpowered with pro players improving at such a fast rate, as they change the effectiveness of different units. I am 100% sure that had the game begun with players that could use snipe as well as they could with ghosts now, they would have never taken out khydarian amulet.

Flux Vanes is another thing. It was removed because void ray all ins were too good in 2v2, but with the 6 second spore crawler burrow time and the incredible strength of fungal, I have to think Blizz could afford to bring it back.


VRs are already tough as shit for zerg to deal with and it derails zerg completely.


where is your proof for this? It is much more widely accepted that FFE voidray openings vs Zerg are terrible nowadays.


because an FFE opening brings it out too slow.

tell me, how's that kiting of spores working out? zerg must spend all his time microing spores around his base and then ultimately never doing any damage because the VRs just run off and laugh while attacking some drones or tech buildings? 7 range is bullshit for a unit that can "charge" to do 1000000 damage, even to unarmored. 1 VR kills 1 queen. It takes far more micro and multitasking for a zerg to defend VRs early game than it takes to lolchronospam VRs.

the person who wins is the person who forces the other to waste time not macroing. VRs do just that, because protoss gains map control, because protoss can insta-kill any tech buildings you try to put up until you mass quieens, derailing 150 minerals per queen from teching, because spores dont shoot immediately and require 6 seconds at which point a VR flies off and you have to uproot again and chase.

I don't see or understand why anyone can point to spores as the reason zerg should be fine against air early game. it costs drones/larvae/minerals, and then it doesn't even shoot unless the protoss is stupid enough to sit there and be shot by it. spores can be kited infinity times. queens can be focused down and killed, particularly by a VR player who precharges on other buildings to get charged damage on queens.


If protoss air openings are so bad, why am I seeing more and more protoss using them on ladder? 9 out of 10 will do it.

bad openings are bad, refined openings put the proof in the pudding of the shit that is VR. theres a reason flux vanes were removed.


I never heard of anyone ever complaining about 1 base Stargate play. I don't know how Void Ray opening are hard to deal with, you build like 2-3 spores and maybe an extra Queen and you're fine. Then you can do whatever the hell you want knowing the Protoss won't have a ground army. Plus, how does Flux Vanes matter when Protoss are going Void Rays off 1 base?

Please please do not use your ladder experience in balance discussions. Balance is never meant to be based around low level play.
Kimla
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden400 Posts
October 14 2011 04:17 GMT
#213
Give ous KA back its not like protoss was overpowered or dominated when we had it...
no gg no skill
Ruscour
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
5233 Posts
October 14 2011 04:18 GMT
#214
On October 14 2011 01:24 Daralii wrote:
[image loading]

pretty much sums up the thread
The KY
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom6252 Posts
October 14 2011 04:21 GMT
#215
On October 14 2011 13:17 Yuppi wrote:
Give ous KA back its not like protoss was overpowered or dominated when we had it...


Wait. Didn't we go through a long period where popular opinion was that protoss was OP? Admittedly mostly due to Idra but still.

Now I'm going to bed. Promise.
softan
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden113 Posts
October 14 2011 04:28 GMT
#216
On October 14 2011 03:53 WickedSkies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2011 01:29 Roxy wrote:
Very Interesting

It is a shame that all of the skilled players chose terran.. wish i could see some protoss innovate new strategies but alas all of the protoss players are scrubs

I guess they just pick terran because it is the hardest race to play and we all know koreans love high APM

I completely agree with every single word in your post!


That just goes to prove your complete lack of understanding of probability.
Serpico
Profile Joined May 2010
4285 Posts
October 14 2011 04:38 GMT
#217
On October 14 2011 13:21 The KY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2011 13:17 Yuppi wrote:
Give ous KA back its not like protoss was overpowered or dominated when we had it...


Wait. Didn't we go through a long period where popular opinion was that protoss was OP? Admittedly mostly due to Idra but still.

Now I'm going to bed. Promise.

Yup, one man did all that.
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
October 14 2011 04:42 GMT
#218
so pretty much this goes towards my theory of meta evolution matchups change based on peoples ability to overcome the current FOTM, once a new strat is figured out, the winrate for that race drops, and the opposing winrate increases until that strategy is figured out.
windsupernova
Profile Joined October 2010
Mexico5280 Posts
October 14 2011 04:46 GMT
#219
On October 14 2011 13:42 PrinceXizor wrote:
so pretty much this goes towards my theory of meta evolution matchups change based on peoples ability to overcome the current FOTM, once a new strat is figured out, the winrate for that race drops, and the opposing winrate increases until that strategy is figured out.


Yup. But lets ignore that!
"Its easy, just trust your CPU".-Boxer on being good at games
sandman1454
Profile Joined June 2011
United States96 Posts
October 14 2011 04:50 GMT
#220
tasteless wasnt joking when he was talking about the metagame movement, His description was just like the graphs show above.
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