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On October 14 2011 04:16 ectonym wrote:
Between, say May and Jul, what does SUPER mean? Is June really that awesome? but srsly folks, what's SUPER mean in OP's charts
the super tourny
These graphs will now be mis-represented all over because people never know how to interpret stats...
Yes terran is winning more, and protoss is winning less, this has been known, these stats also support that, but to make more inferences past that is a fallacy.
The interesting things to note are the months MC MVP or Nestea won and the respective race win-rates in those months.
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On October 14 2011 04:16 ectonym wrote:
Between, say May and Jul, what does SUPER mean? Is June really that awesome? but srsly folks, what's SUPER mean in OP's charts
GSL Super Tournament
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On October 14 2011 04:07 Wuster wrote:
I'm aware that all games feature timing attacks. I watched MC at IPL and he's still delaying his 3rd a long time while he executes 2-base timing x. He's not all-in, but he does bank a lot on his push working. Most of the time if you move out and the timing turns out not to be there, you turn around and try later. MC's seems like he *had* to make the timing work or he's screwed.
Sure, MC does use timing pushes a lot, but I personally feel that it's not just his playstyle: it's a way the Protoss race works. The warp gate mechanic lends itself to timing pushes, with Protoss being pretty much just as good on the offensive as defensive because of no reinforcement time and the ability to reproduce a chunk of your army in 5 seconds after you lose Zealots eg 6gate push. Of course, that's just my opinion.
I watch as many MC games as I can, and his 3rd timing is still really dependant on the map. On TDA, he often takes a fast 3rd behind Stargate pressure or DTs, spending most of his gas on Sentries rather than Robo or Templar tech, but on many maps (eg XNC or Metal) he will go for deadly timings rather than take a 3rd. I just hope this doesn't get predictable for his opponents.
On October 14 2011 04:07 Wuster wrote:But then again this might be my bias towards Terran style 100-food pushes to kill the Zerg 3rd versus Protoss' using a void/phoenix to stop the Zerg from putting his 3rd down (which fail so often to oh that 3rd was faster than I thought, oh he has extra queens, oh there are spores...).
I agree. I think at a high level Stargate play has pretty much been "solved" by Zerg, at least in the way we're talking about. That's why Warp Prism/Zealot play works so well, as taking a fast 3rd leaves you with very little army to defend that style.
On October 14 2011 04:07 Wuster wrote:I think Protoss still has plenty of room to explore with timings, ect. They have Chronoboost after all. It's certainly made double forge look viable in the GSTL playoffs. I really do believe that chronoboost is not well understood right now. I see lots of pro games where it's been 10+ minutes in and the nexus has full energy, certainly there's something you could be doing, if nothing other than powering into a tech switch (chrono buildings or upgrades).
I consider the GSTL to be a bad sample for looking at balance. You often get Code B players matched up against Code S players. The really top players don't seem to take GSTL seriously (Nestea, MVP, Bomber) and just basically use ladder builds. Yes, chronoboost can be used better, but the difference it makes to most timings is minimal - it won't change a strategy from unviable to viable, it won't make an opponent's viable strategy suddenly unviable. It is there for subtle changes, unless of course you are talking about PvP.
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On October 14 2011 01:24 Daralii wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9rI09.png)
More like
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/C4weR.png)
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Regarding protoss "having to do timing pushes".
I dont think they have "to do" is the right word, but more like, "doing timing pushes" comes natural as a protoss player. This is prob somewhat similar to the early release/beta wehre all in terran players did was doing 1base allins. That was kinda nautral for terrran players. But terran has evovled so much since then, and even though terran is the most weakned race since early release its probably even more dominant now (in korea ) than early release.
The same might be the case for protoss players, though I expect that the transition from the "natural" way to play and the more solid approach will take longer for toss players. Toss needs to get used to warp prism play. What about dual warp prism drop play, and warp prism combined with the "mothership teleport approach" playstyle. I feel like there is a lot of potential in the toss race right now, and they will have to stop relying on timing pushes.
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On October 14 2011 01:23 ChroMaTe_ wrote:
Thus why I switched to Terran.
So you're switched to terran because terran is imbalanced at a skill level you will never attain ?
At your (our) playing level, there is no such thing as imbalance. In fact even at foreigner pro level there is no such thing as imbalance.
Complaining because of too much TvT in GSL I can understand. Complaining because playing protoss or zerg is hard in your (our) wood leagues is the ultimate hypocrisy. Because in our wood leagues, playing every race is fucking hard.
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On October 14 2011 04:50 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 04:07 Wuster wrote:
I'm aware that all games feature timing attacks. I watched MC at IPL and he's still delaying his 3rd a long time while he executes 2-base timing x. He's not all-in, but he does bank a lot on his push working. Most of the time if you move out and the timing turns out not to be there, you turn around and try later. MC's seems like he *had* to make the timing work or he's screwed. Sure, MC does use timing pushes a lot, but I personally feel that it's not just his playstyle: it's a way the Protoss race works. The warp gate mechanic lends itself to timing pushes, with Protoss being pretty much just as good on the offensive as defensive because of no reinforcement time and the ability to reproduce a chunk of your army in 5 seconds after you lose Zealots eg 6gate push. Of course, that's just my opinion.
I think this is the million dollar question. If it's how Protoss works, then they're in trouble. To play devil's advocate in NASL Season 1, Rainbow said that Terran is a harass race that can't win if he misses his timing. Since then Terran has evolved quite a few solid macro playstyles in all 3 matchups. Hopefully that happens with Protoss too. Sadly, San's macro heavy whack-a-mole style of Protoss was centered around KA for defense. Maybe there are some tweaks wehre Protoss can do that again.
The power of Warpgate probably mislead a lot of players into focusing on timings early on. I think everyone would agree that Protoss has also been the race that's been messed with the most when it comes to build orders. WG, Blink, KA are all pretty general changes, not like reaper build time or depot before rax which both targeted cheese builds. Stim change is the only general timing change for Terran. I don't think Zerg has ever had to change their build order due to patch changes either.
On October 14 2011 04:50 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 04:07 Wuster wrote:I think Protoss still has plenty of room to explore with timings, ect. They have Chronoboost after all. It's certainly made double forge look viable in the GSTL playoffs. I really do believe that chronoboost is not well understood right now. I see lots of pro games where it's been 10+ minutes in and the nexus has full energy, certainly there's something you could be doing, if nothing other than powering into a tech switch (chrono buildings or upgrades). I consider the GSTL to be a bad sample for looking at balance. You often get Code B players matched up against Code S players. The really top players don't seem to take GSTL seriously (Nestea, MVP, Bomber) and just basically use ladder builds. Yes, chronoboost can be used better, but the difference it makes to most timings is minimal - it won't change a strategy from unviable to viable, it won't make an opponent's viable strategy suddenly unviable. It is there for subtle changes, unless of course you are talking about PvP.
Well, yesterday's GSTL nobody could be tomorrow MMA or DRG (funny enough both of them got Code S via MLG too).
Well, when it comes to timings, Chrono can be useful for hitting 10 seconds early / chrono. Or you can be disciplined about keeping a constant chrono on a production buildings so that you need less overall and can squeeze out an earlier something? I dunno, just random thoughts (which is why I was nice and vague in my first post).
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On October 14 2011 02:53 dooraven wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 02:53 Phats wrote:
Weird how the graph was most balanced in July and then LEAST balanced 1 month later. What changes occured around that period of time? 1/1/1 happened. Not sure what happened in PvZ though
Stargate FFE got figured out, I guess. Toss doesn't have a reliable way to apply early aggression to zerg outside of an all in, which leads to zerg expanding pretty unchallenged and obliterating the toss in the lategame.
A big problem is that Blizz basically designed themselves into a corner with toss largely due to warpgates. Because of that, it's a design flaw rather than a balance issue, and probably isn't going to be fixed until HotS at the very earliest.
@Wuster, a big problem with chrono is that several build times are actually balanced around constant chrono, meaning that we need to constantly chrono the production facility to get anything resembling a reasonable build time.
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On October 14 2011 05:00 MrCon wrote:So you're switched to terran because terran is imbalanced at a skill level you will never attain ? At your (our) playing level, there is no such thing as imbalance. In fact even at foreigner pro level there is no such thing as imbalance. Complaining because of too much TvT in GSL I can understand. Complaining because playing protoss or zerg is hard in your (our) wood leagues is the ultimate hypocrisy. Because in our wood leagues, playing every race is fucking hard.
What base do you have to say that balance is only a factor at Korean skill level? Please back up your claim.
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On October 14 2011 05:26 thesauceishot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:00 MrCon wrote:On October 14 2011 01:23 ChroMaTe_ wrote:
Thus why I switched to Terran. So you're switched to terran because terran is imbalanced at a skill level you will never attain ? At your (our) playing level, there is no such thing as imbalance. In fact even at foreigner pro level there is no such thing as imbalance. Complaining because of too much TvT in GSL I can understand. Complaining because playing protoss or zerg is hard in your (our) wood leagues is the ultimate hypocrisy. Because in our wood leagues, playing every race is fucking hard. What base do you have to say that balance is only a factor at Korean skill level? Please back up your claim.
Because no race is dominating anywhere else ?
If you accept that korean terran domination is because of balance and not because of skill, you have to accept too that foreign land, where no race is dominating, has no balance issue.
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On October 14 2011 05:00 MrCon wrote:So you're switched to terran because terran is imbalanced at a skill level you will never attain ? At your (our) playing level, there is no such thing as imbalance. In fact even at foreigner pro level there is no such thing as imbalance. Complaining because of too much TvT in GSL I can understand. Complaining because playing protoss or zerg is hard in your (our) wood leagues is the ultimate hypocrisy. Because in our wood leagues, playing every race is fucking hard.
You can't generalize across imbalances in this way. Suppose the imbalance were caused by the fact that SCVs build 3 seconds faster than probes. That's an imbalance that would effect every PvT from pro level down to gold.
Imbalance means that one side plays with a handicap. So if you're a low masters protoss, it's possible that you're actually substantially better than other low masters terrans at your same rank -- if you had picked terran instead of protoss as your race, then you might be mid-masters or high-masters for the same amount of time and effort put into the game.
Hence, some people switch races due to imbalance.
edit: It's like saying that if you're an amateur racer and you're pitting your souped-up Honda Civic against some rich asshole's Porsche, the imbalance between the speed and acceleration of the cars doesn't influence the outcome of the race because it's two amateurs racing and not two professional race car drivers.
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On October 14 2011 04:21 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 04:16 ectonym wrote:
Between, say May and Jul, what does SUPER mean? Is June really that awesome? but srsly folks, what's SUPER mean in OP's charts the super tourny These graphs will now be mis-represented all over because people never know how to interpret stats... Yes terran is winning more, and protoss is winning less, this has been known, these stats also support that, but to make more inferences past that is a fallacy. The interesting things to note are the months MC MVP or Nestea won and the respective race win-rates in those months.
And how pray tell should we interpret them? Is there a mathematical formula that tells us which games should be considered or how long the remain relevant?
You're right to say that the graphs themselves are only declarative, but I don't see how 'the graph is meaningless without context' turns into 'the graph is meaningless'. You can still interpret them in light of your other observations.
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It's like saying that if you're an amateur racer and you're pitting your souped-up Honda Civic against some rich asshole's Porsche, the imbalance between the speed and acceleration of the cars doesn't influence the outcome of the race because it's two amateurs racing and not two professional race car drivers.
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On October 14 2011 05:38 galivet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:00 MrCon wrote:On October 14 2011 01:23 ChroMaTe_ wrote:
Thus why I switched to Terran. So you're switched to terran because terran is imbalanced at a skill level you will never attain ? At your (our) playing level, there is no such thing as imbalance. In fact even at foreigner pro level there is no such thing as imbalance. Complaining because of too much TvT in GSL I can understand. Complaining because playing protoss or zerg is hard in your (our) wood leagues is the ultimate hypocrisy. Because in our wood leagues, playing every race is fucking hard. You can't generalize across imbalances in this way. Suppose the imbalance were caused by the fact that SCVs build 3 seconds faster than probes. That's an imbalance that would effect every PvT from pro level down to gold. Imbalance means that one side plays with a handicap. So if you're a low masters protoss, it's possible that you're actually substantially better than other low masters terrans at your same rank -- if you had picked terran instead of protoss as your race, then you might be mid-masters or high-masters for the same amount of time and effort put into the game. Hence, some people switch races due to imbalance.
Yeah but if imbalance needs the very highest level of play to be exploited, this also mean that it doesn't affect lowest level of play. Your 3 second scv example would affect all levels.
If foreigner zergs or protoss win their fair share of tournaments when the game is imbalanced in their disfavor, then how much would they win if the game was balanced ? They would win so much that people would complain that they're imbalanced.
I guess that's why Blizzard is in a pretty tough situation right now.
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On October 14 2011 01:24 Daralii wrote:
I think at some point the Protoss win rate were in the 30s around the end of the graph. Sad zealot indeed 
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Hm im not happy with those graphs
look like a very upset toss troll made them up with excel if you ask me.
hmmm nope sryy
User was temp banned for this post.
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On October 14 2011 06:08 Coopa826 wrote:
Hm im not happy with those graphs
look like a very upset toss troll made them up with excel if you ask me.
hmmm nope sryy
This is really not an acceptable way to post.
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On October 14 2011 06:08 Coopa826 wrote:
Hm im not happy with those graphs
look like a very upset toss troll made them up with excel if you ask me.
hmmm nope sryy
-.- Seriously? If you don't think the figures are accurate, then you can go check that they are/aren't. Don't just call it troll because I think the figures are quite accurate...
Mmm I just hope that Protoss can find some new strategies... Especially with 1.4 patch, there is a lot of room to be explored~ Terran is perhaps not OPOPOP, but it certainly is at least a little bit favored.
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I want to see an only code-s graph
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EPT
