On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I have not seen such a poll, but if that is the case, then those people were wrong. It is a fact that uncertainty breeds excitement. I do not watch SC2 games so I can get a better rank in my bronze league by copying stuff I see. I watch it to be entertained and excited.
I'd like to know how you get "entertained" or "excited" if you've already seen the match and you're watching it again.
How do you explain that when OGN broadcast WCG their amazing observer was unaware of the progress bars at first and left them off, and I watched the most exciting series of SC2 ever (for me) between MKP and Hero.
Your study proves nothing, and if you had any awareness of Korean Brood War, you would understand.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Don't ever do this - I'd rather the other tabs didn't exist and all games always showed the production tab. I hate it when the observer shows any other tab.
Many casters don't understand what is going on in the game and unless there is a dedicated obs because of their poor game sense they miss drops, expos and tech switches. Production tab helps the viewer so much.
1. Did you watch Hero vs MKP WCG a few weeks ago? 2. Have you ever watched any Pro BW games? 3. Do you think we should adjust our standards as fans to compensate for crappy incompetent 'me too' casters who for some reason think that predicting and refuting game outcomes is more exciting than just being excited and narrating? Really?
Do you want to watch progress bars, or do you want to watch a strategic postitional military sporting event? Ugh, this makes me so sad...
The good: you and painuser have GREAT synergy. Your excitement/enthusiasm for the game is awesome. No complaints about PainUser at all. I know people complain of his Terran bias but to be honest I never noticed it.
The bad : You get a little carried away - 3lings run into some guys natural and you're like "this could be disastrous!". Sometimes you call engagements the wrong way...not a huge deal since I know I do all the time (i usually lead my friends in team games since they are silver) but i know that irritates a lot of the good players. Once again this is where PainUser comes in - he's not afraid to call it differently and I think that helps you guys as a duo. You guys sometimes miss drops and such on the minimap.
The summary : I know the bad paragraph is triple the good. However, you guys are really good overall. Just get better at judging engagements and following the minimap and you'll be top tier. Near as I can tell the only way to do that is going to be to cast more games. Which is fine by me. I'll keep watching. IPL's been great since day 1 and IPL3 was freaking amazing.
have to agree with many of the negative criticisms here, mainly on how you miss things and some of your awkward casting habits.
Way back in beta-early launch-ish days I thought you and Husky were pretty awesome English castors (perhaps because there were virtually no one who started as early as you) but somewhere along the way, I started becoming less interested.
Personally, the favorite castors of mine are the korean bw castors. I don't even know their names (though I am Korean but only watched game channels from time to time) but they did their jobs marvelously. People fixate on REAVERREAVERREAVER kind of aspects of Korean casting, but they were truly great on the following from the perspective of someone who never played bw seriously (not in order of importance)
1) technical knowledge: they may be wrong, they may be right, but they never failed to take on the role (or the impression) of people who knew their shit about this game, and it felt like as if they were a kind of a guide sitting next to you on a thrilling ride (if that makes any sense... loool) 2) excitement: I mean this aspect (and arguably others) may be biased but they never failed to entertain. Here is where most foreigners quote REAVEREAVERREAVERREAVER or STORMSTORMSTORM as the trademark phrases and laugh at the absurdity/exaggeration of it and I can relate to that to a degree. But to me that only made sense considering the enormous hype and build-up they led the audience in from the very beginning of the game. Honestly, in a few days maybe weeks if longer, I will forget everything about the games I watched but what remains with you is the excitement, the 'nerd chills' that you felt. Perhaps the best and most critical things castors were able to do for me (and I'm sure for a good portion of the audience) was that they were able to translate the bashing of keyboards and flashes of images on screen to a shitstorm of battles of wits, personalities, and skills. They made sure that progamers were portrayed often as extraordinary or down right GODLY (I'd never have appreciated Jaedong and Flash without castors) 3) I thought I had more but... not sure what else to say atm maybe to edit in later
Perhaps I am just ignorant and biased, and I am sure that I am not all that much knowledgeable about details of what it takes a castor but I know for a fact that the reason why SC has been the game I played the longest (casually or competitively) is because of the way castors are able to captivate the audience in depicting SC games. In the end, I would just encourage you guys to keep doing what you guys are doing and just strive to improve. You've already stated that intention and that is good enough as is.
PS - its been a secret longing of mine to sub some of the older broodwar videos of original korean casts, as I think I've only seen one video on youtube that did that at all -- I feel like the non-korean community missed out and is still missing out on the treasure trove that is korean casting. With interests in SC/SC2 strong(er) as ever and number of Koreans that must be hanging around this website, I hope to see a project as such go into progress someday ^^ -- I know I deviated a lot not just in this PS but hopefully you will find bits that are useful to you. GL HD and Painuser!
For the most part it was well done. One minor change would have made it highly enjoyable. (Caveat being that few people care about details as much as I do) I would like to see you guys make sure that your commentary is correct. I noticed a few times that a player would have a bunch of buildings (say gateways) and then add more and you would say things like "oh he's going up to 6 gateways". When everyone paying close attention knows that the player had five and is adding two and is therefore going up to seven gates.
I realize that the casting is live and mistakes get made but it easier to say things like "oh he's adding two more gateways" and be correct more often if you don't remember how many he had before.
I hope this explanation makes sense.
Otherwise, I have HUGE appreciation for you coming and asking for feedback. Keep it up.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I have not seen such a poll, but if that is the case, then those people were wrong. It is a fact that uncertainty breeds excitement. I do not watch SC2 games so I can get a better rank in my bronze league by copying stuff I see. I watch it to be entertained and excited.
I'd like to know how you get "entertained" or "excited" if you've already seen the match and you're watching it again.
How do you explain that when OGN broadcast WCG their amazing observer was unaware of the progress bars at first and left them off, and I watched the most exciting series of SC2 ever (for me) between MKP and Hero.
Your study proves nothing, and if you had any awareness of Korean Brood War, you would understand.
I actually prefer the production facility on, and sometimes switch to unit tab, It is a great way to know how the game can progress. You can analysis thing yourself when caster missed it.
So you expect "excitement" when something pop out of nowhere and you are "wow" like DT + stargate play? banshee, tech switch, suddenly appear? lol the caster will most certainly not miss that, and If they miss it, they are bad caster, and I feel like you only want to watch the battle micro and stuff, not how the game going and the decision making by player. Production tab is the most important thing when observing a game. OGN did not turn it on because they do not have experience with sc2, in sc1 there is no technology like that, and their cast is so good because they did not miss a single thing on the map.
One of the criticisms people keep reiterating here (calling things) backs up my beef that we don't want predictions, we just want hype and descriptions.
I didn't see much of a chemistry between PainUser and HD. PainUser is an awkward guy with some knowlege of the game and HD is a lovely person, well spoken, but with a deficit of high level knowledge. If HD invests the time and learns all about the high level meta game then i could see him as a caster that i personally enjoy listening too.
I really don't like your casting. Game sense is one huge thing, I feel like you are one of the worst casters in this. You don't need to understand the game at a pro level but understand the scene and basic game level would be great. This includes knowing the Korean players and teams, understanding recent tournaments, and all of that.
I feel you're excitable and force way too much in your casting without understanding what's going on, instead of having a natural excitement. I feel like you focus too much on 1 player without considering the counterpoint.
Painuser is much better at all of that, but isn't as charismatic as some of the best casters. He could use a bit more practice in front of a camera.
HeyHD! Since your SC2 knowledge is lacking I think you should stick to more play by play commentary. Your energy and voice projection is great for that.
Also don't be so assertive with your analyzation because quite frankly it's not that great compared to the Painuser's & Artosis' of casters, and often time it's wrong or I'm not confident in believing you lol. Painuser is right next to you and he can awkwardly shut it down or correct you at any time (as he should if you want to correctly educate the viewers).
If you're going to analyze the game first you should work on if you know what you're saying is true, if not don't even try to analyze or make predictions unless you add some suggestive questioning to your analyzation so PainUser can chime in for a smooth transition. This is better than being awkwardly shut down or corrected for insisting wrong analyzation or predictions, and you learn about the game as do we.
Know your role and strengths. Look at DJWheat. If he's paired someone with superior and proven game knowledge, he sticks to a certain role and his strengths. Same with a lot of the other successful casters.
Overtime your SC2 knowledge will get better but for now, at least with high profile/player skilled matches for events, you should stick to your strengths and certain roles.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I have not seen such a poll, but if that is the case, then those people were wrong. It is a fact that uncertainty breeds excitement. I do not watch SC2 games so I can get a better rank in my bronze league by copying stuff I see. I watch it to be entertained and excited.
I'd like to know how you get "entertained" or "excited" if you've already seen the match and you're watching it again.
How do you explain that when OGN broadcast WCG their amazing observer was unaware of the progress bars at first and left them off, and I watched the most exciting series of SC2 ever (for me) between MKP and Hero.
Your study proves nothing, and if you had any awareness of Korean Brood War, you would understand.
I actually prefer the production facility on, and sometimes switch to unit tab, It is a great way to know how the game can progress. You can analysis thing yourself when caster missed it.
So you expect "excitement" when something pop out of nowhere and you are "wow" like DT + stargate play? banshee, tech switch, suddenly appear? lol the caster will most certainly not miss that, and If they miss it, they are bad caster, and I feel like you only want to watch the battle micro and stuff, not how the game going and the decision making by player. Production tab is the most important thing when observing a game. OGN did not turn it on because they do not have experience with sc2, in sc1 there is no technology like that, and their cast is so good because they did not miss a single thing on the map.
I am simply stunned.
Yes, things suddenly appearing are exciting. Why wouldn't they be? Are you aware that top BW observers sometimes hide buildings, units, and do not reveal what is being researched DELIBERATELY in order to promote excitement and suspense?
On October 11 2011 16:36 minhbq299 wrote: I feel like you only want to watch the battle [...] Production tab is the most important thing when observing a game.
I give up. You're a lost cause. Knowing a player is safe or has no chance of winning has no appeal to me. Clearly you only watch pro games to steal builds and timings. Good luck enjoying the speadsheets and powerpoints of life.
And having it as a crutch for garbage poser commentators/observers will only expose the ones who should be kicked out and promote the best observers faster.
HD, I'd just like to say that maybe you could improve on mini-map spotting and overall just be careful of making too many wrong calls if you're not sure. You're one of the best at bringing energy to a cast and I love you for it.
It's hard to criticize PainUser's casting because he is a great player and brings that extra bit of knowledge to the cast..and speaks in a fairly paced, analytical manner.
You guys make a great casting duo, but perhaps bring a different "casting vibe" to a live event as opposed to casting online qualifiers. Stylistically, you probably want less jokes and more in-depth analysis at live events, and more layed back, conversational casting when matches are less important. Both styles have their place and time.
Just chiming in to say that I really like you guys casting together. I can't comment on the specifics of your casting, I just like the way you interact with each other. It's way more special to get 2 guys who cast well together(like the beloved archon), than it is to just put together 2 random guys who are individually good casters but have no chemistry.
HD I have been following your youtube channel for a year I think and I must say - you are far more awesome in youtube than in live casting, thats probably because of stage fright(?).
I followed IPL as much as possible and allthough I liked you, it felt that you two were a bit "dry" on the part of jokes/spicing things up.
As I started to watch Youtube casts from you, really I thought why this guy is not casting live! And for someone who doesnt know play so well your awesome. Just for me in stage you miss the "x" factor, maybe its natural talent maybe you just need to be used to it.
As I just suggest you to relax and imagine that you are live and you are doing the same as in Youtube, keep up te good work.
(Btw for live events - check yours and painusers relaxation and acting and commetating when you did anti-spoiler videos for your tournament where you cheesed and painuser was teaching you - thats an atmosphere i would like to see in live events - at the moment it felt too formal)
And what goes to mistakes - well that didnt bother me - i think other casters made same amount of mistakes.
I just want to say, thanks very much for the comments and constructive criticism so far! Taylor and I are going to have a VERY THOROUGH look at everything and definitely try to improve and hone our craft that much more. Definitely seems like there is some back and forth with people on both sides of the fence.
I think you did okay, a lot of people will criticise you just because of who you are, similarly to Husky, for whatever reason. Your knowledge could be improved, but then again, everyone loves Tasteless yet he has no idea what's going on. But you seemed up to date on Stephano's playstyle and what he was going to do, when other American casters probably would have had no idea. I feel like all casters should get more knowledge of players from all scenes though, something that bugs me, especially the korean players. Most commentators have no idea how they play or what they've achieved, other than that they're Korean so they must be good. dApollo seems to be one of the few casters that does a lot of research on the players.
All in all, I had no problem listening in to your casts, but as always there's room for improvement
On October 11 2011 16:37 0neder wrote: One of the criticisms people keep reiterating here (calling things) backs up my beef that we don't want predictions, we just want hype and descriptions.
I don't know if your statement as said above is incorrect, but saying that we shouldn't have production bars and similar stuff used is just flat out stupid.
EPT
IPL's been great since day 1 and IPL3 was freaking amazing.
