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On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote:
I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS.
Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Yeah this is actual a terrible idea please never do this. ever. I've learned so many good builds by watching the production tab during games.
On topic though, you guys are pretty good, you seem to work well with each other Overall I think theres nowhere to go but up for you guys.
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i think you need to learn the game more HD, its been posted numerous times on your youtube channel since you first started too. doesnt seem like there was any improvement. you just started yelling more
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In-game it was pretty good, but your crowd interaction and sponsor plugs need some work! Also, you seemed quite nervous, which is natural I guess seeing as it's your first time in front of a huge crowd.
I'd like to get more info on the players themselves. What notable things they've achieved, what's their playstyle, what's their strongest match-up(if relevant), and anything else interesting.
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I think you guys should try with a dedicated obs, the observing (which I presume was done by HD) was a little bit lackluster, and I assume it affected your calls/flow sometimes as well, sometimes slipping a little bit. Pretty much only production bar was shown for entire games in a row, it is possible to be abit more active with them, use them hotkeys bro' 
I think also, for an event like IPL, reseaching _all_ of the players thourughly (spelling  ) makes a _really_ good impression on the viewers - I just love being bombed by dApollo with a players ladderstats, winrates vs. certain race, recent strategies etc - It just does alot for the experience. It should be possible with such a relative defined pool of players.
On the positive side, I loved how you handled the Sponsor-shoutouts.. Im pretty sure Visine is pretty happy with you guys by now =)
I voted "Yes!" but I do still think you guys have some areas where you can improve.
For Painuser specificly, I'm very very happy with your 'terran bias' as some call it... There are soo many casters that are P and Z, and yet very few Terran casters. Your insight is very cool, so please don't try to change that
Good job guys, Im sure I'll see you for season 4
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On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote:
Don't show the worker/unit tab.
Don't listen to this guy, this is a really bad idea. Starcraft 2 has UI improvements over
other old games for a reason.
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The weird thing is, it's not that either of you are bad casters. I think you're both fine casters... but somehow together something is missing.
I don't know if it's in need of a dedicated observer, a different style to work with eachother, changing places, I dunno'... but something doesn't click for me.
It should be noted, I think you're both fine. But something is holding you back from the next level. Obviously more knowledge/background about players and builds always helps, but that's not what I see as the problem.
edit: I think a more defined role as play-by-play/analyst/color-commentator needs to be fleshed out when you're together.
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PainUser is easily my favorite caster out there, and I think you guys have a solid chemistry together. I really think you need to spend more time analyzing army compositions, and figuring out which side will come out ahead.
I'd also like to see less racial bias, and I don't think it's ever appropriate to point out who you're rooting for. I'm not even sure you should be pointing out which race you play during a cast. You should be as neutral as possible while providing insight into both players or teams.
SF Giants have the best announcers in sports, definitely look there for inspiration.
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I think you guys need to work on your zerg/terran bias and race knowledge in general, but otherwise I enjoy your casting to be honest. You guys are really great. I think what would be helpful is for you guys to play the other races (mainly protoss) and learn a bit more from the other race's perspective. Build orders, decisions etc, are hard to really comment on if you don't really play the race. I know both of you play your own race at a pretty high level but I think it'll benefit your casting if you play other races for a significant amount of time.
(Voted yes btw.)
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Only thigns that turn me off are when Painuser is saying "MAKE SOME NOISE" he does something weird with the mic like he is trying to be an announcer at a basketball game or something. It just comes out weird and distorted. If he just said make some noise at a bit higher level it would be fine, but the mic gets weird or he does something to the mic.
Also, sometimes you guys overstate the importance of stuff, Ala Gretorp NASL season 1.
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From what I saw of the games you casted in IPL3, the camera always seemed to be jerked around and switching to different areas of the map way too quickly. Smoother movements would be great!
Your switching to the graphical overlays right after a critical engagement has good timing but maybe leave the overlay on slightly longer, it always felt like you were showing it for a split second and I always only barely had time to absorb the information
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On October 11 2011 15:41 Novalisk wrote:
I'd like to get more info on the players themselves. What notable things they've achieved, what's their playstyle, what's their strongest match-up(if relevant), and anything else interesting.
This. Study their replays if you have time, even (by no means necessary, but it could help). That is something most viewers don't go out of their way to do unless they are really interested in the player.
Not much happens in the early game for the most part, so perhaps analyzing the map might also be useful for killing time, as opposed to trying to predict what a player might do when no solid prediction can be derived at that time. It may sound insignificant, but it may prove to be insightful for lesser players. A plus if a player uses the map to their advantage later in the game too!
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On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote:
I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS.
Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
The reason starcraft is fun to watch is the fact that you know what is happening and are going to see how it plays out. Will the other player find out what his opponent is making? Will he blind counter it? Will he get demolished? If we did not know what was building we would not have anticipation built up.
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If you browse TL and reddit, you might find negative comments regarding who commentated the finals. Please don't take that as a form of feedback on your casting quality. It is more of a reflection of a preference between commentators. If duo A is heavily preferred over duo B in a certain situation, it does not mean duo B is bad. It simply means duo A is deemed better for the situation.
With that said, I guess i'll outline the few things that I don't like about commentating in general that could be applied your commentating this weekend.
I do not like when obviously wrong calls are being made about the game at hand. Whether that is screaming out who's winning a fight, how a build order is going to play out, or what's going to happen next. I understand mistakes happen, and i'm perfectly fine with that fact, but sometimes it gets out of hand. For example, if a commentator were to say that a player is in trouble because he's not building a certain unit while he is very clearly building that unit and the commentator doesn't notice until there are five of them on the field. Or, if 10 stalkers engage 15 stimmed marauders with medivacs and the commentator starts calling the engagement for the protoss. These are little things that can only be corrected by having more knowledge about the game and paying more attention. It often feels as though I am paying more attention to the game than the commentators. I think this is one of the reasons why artosis is considered an excellent commentator. Game knowledge and eloquence aside - he doesn't miss a beat and always has a very good sense of what is going on. I cannot think of many times where, as a spectator, I am concerned about something in the game that artosis hasn't already covered. This quality seems unfortunately rare in commentators, but if you're looking to become one of the greatest, it seems necessary.
On the same page as paying attention, the only thing about the IPL that I did not absolutely love was the observer camera work. I'm not sure who was working the camera in the HD/painuser duo, but across all three pairs, I often found myself screeching in my basement as drop after drop after engagement after runby after engagement after drop was missed time and time again. Although it might not pertain necessarily to 'commentating', if your line of work has you working the camera often, I would really recommend working on it. I don't care about a jerky camera or a camera that is moving too fast if that's the price of seeing what's going on in the game. I know its almost impossible to catch everything going on all the time, but there is a clear difference in camera work between different commentators, which indicates that there is probably room for improvement for a lot of them.
These things i've listed probably aren't a very big deal to people who enjoy starcraft on a more casual level, and they are literally the only two bits of feedback I could think of right now. However, if you want your commentating to appeal to a more knowledgeable audience and do justice to the quality of games being viewed, I think it is vital. I know HD and husky are often viewed as entry level commentators for people who aren't extremely knowledgeable about starcraft. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but if you want to commentate the play of some of the best competitors in the world on the biggest stages, I would hope for the sake of knowledgeable viewers everywhere that the commentator can keep up with what the players are doing.
Wall of text aside, I wish to be clear that I think that all the commentators at the IPL did a phenomenal job this weekend. I hesitate to even post the feedback because it feels negative and I didn't feel anything but positivity after watching.
I guess I could summarize my post quite easily:
Purely by listening, I got the impression that apollo is heavily involved with the professional scene. He has intimate knowledge of builds, strategies, and even personal information about players. He rarely misunderstood what a player was trying to do. It made his commentating incredibly enjoyable for me to listen to.
No other commentators gave me the impression that they follow the highest level of play closely, aside from painuser (though the impression from apollo was stronger). If you can find a way to give that impression to viewers like me, I would be hard pressed to find anything bad to say about your commentating.
If you want to continue to appeal to the more casual viewers (which there is absolutely nothing wrong with), you are doing an absolutely fantastic job. If you want to broaden your viewer base to include the more knowledgeable viewers, you need to speak their language.
I am confident that Apollo and wheat were the commentators of preference this weekend only because djwheat doesn't make any big mistakes and apollo always has a very good idea of what's going on. All the commentators at the IPL were equally amazing in all other categories.
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On October 11 2011 15:05 FrodaN wrote:Hey HD, I hope you read this message. From one caster to another, I want to say that I think you guys did a great job. Your excitement is fantastic. Don't lose it. My friends who don't play SC2 were watching with me even turned to me saying "Wow this guy gets all pumped and makes me feel excited too!" My only suggestion is to continue loosening up. It seems you guys were very tense and forced laughs. As a result, there were moments of awkwardness in terms of your co-casting dynamics. As for the other complaints like "lack of knowledge" or whatever the general complaints--that's all hearsay and personal preference. Keep your style and just work on meshing better with PainUser. GL in the future
I also have the same impression, your both casting well in my opinion, but you don't seem really confortable doing so. It's somehting that is hard to change, but if you can be more relaxed I think it would help with your casting.
Concerning the game knowledge of HD, i think it's ok ifff he fills the role of the play by play commentator.
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the only problem i had was all the constant annoying clapping you guys kept doing beside your mics.... if you are the casters please dont clap into your microphone.
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On October 11 2011 15:49 MuseMike wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote:
I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS.
Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching. The reason starcraft is fun to watch is the fact that you know what is happening and are going to see how it plays out. Will the other player find out what his opponent is making? Will he blind counter it? Will he get demolished? If we did not know what was building we would not have anticipation built up. Uh what the fuck? Where has critical thinking gone!?!?!? Have you never watched brood war? You can casually look, manually, as a caster, at his base. Click on a building cyber core, hes building a core! Theres something to be said about the anticipatory excitement of seeing what hatches out of an egg, or wondering how many workers were killed in a raid, or visually seeing a six pool go down rather than simply being aware of it due to some pictures in the top left. Having watched broodwar for 5-6 years I can tell you the usage of these features in casting sc2 does nothing but makes it worse. For everyone, statement to the contrary are merely ignorance.
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HD did pretty well and keeps improving. I really like Painuser as a caster. I think he should start being invited to some of the big events.
My complaint is when casters call a game over when it's not. I think you guys have done this as well. Even if it looks really dire I still don't like people calling it over until it is 100% certain.
I respect the fact that you made this thread. I'm sure you will keep getting better! Keep it up!
Edit: There are a lot of negative comments that I wish people would phrase more as constructive criticism. It will sound harsh going through the thread but pay attention to the positives as well. <3
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Things to work on in tandem:
Statistics, use some player statistics, even if its just the last 10 matches in TLPD, or their last IPL matches.
Korean Metagame, it seems like you are both clueless in this aspect, Painuser knows American Metagame quite well, and can cast America and European games because of this, but when Korean games come you are both set back.
Dont be afraid to cut the other guy off his non important story, to talk about Starcraft, sure it may be improper etiquette, but you're getting paid, so etiquette is not important .
HD: You need to be more precise in what you're saying, even if you're trying to say it fast, I don't have much sympathy for you in this aspect since this is your job as the play by play caster, but stop tripping over words every single cast, and just slow down and give precise play by play. If play by play is truly what you want to do, then start studying the craft.
PainUser: Stop being so awkward. Hard to ask i know, but just stop !
Dont just correct HD why he is wrong, inform everyone why HD is wrong ! You've done it a few times, but not always.
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I don't think its your knowledge itself that is bad, since it is my understanding that you are masters and therefore most likely more knowledgeable than a decent proportion of people who critique you it (and also most likely more knowledgeable than some of the other casters, such as Catspyjamas).
However I think where the problem arises is that when something happens that a particular caster doesn't understand, then they usually either don't say anything or handball to their co-caster for their input/judgement on what is happening, whereas a lot of the time you just try take a stab at what you think is going on and consequentially look stupid when it turns out to be wrong.
It could maybe be a nervous thing where you feel obliged to keep talking and trying to analyse everything or something like that.
Whilst it is always good to keep expanding your knowledge, it would probably go a long way to just think through what is going on before saying anything, and if you are unsure then ask your co-caster instead of just talking shit to try create filler.
Something small as well but mix up your language a bit, hearing 'eminem' all the time can get annoying.
I used to watch your youtube casting quite a lot and from what I can recall you seemed very comfortable casting over youtube, so maybe it was just the nerves causing you to lose focus and create filler.
TLDR; If you don't know what is going on, either ignore it and wait to see what happens and talk about it then, or ask your co-caster, don't just take a stab in the dark.
Edit: Not saying you shouldn't be constantly improving your knowledge or anything, I just think this point compounds the effect of lack of knowledge.
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You are certainly brave to open yourself up to such an easy avenue for direct criticism in a place where often unhappy people reply a higher % of the time than possibly more people who were perfectly content with a product/event.
Overall I really liked your casting, and the combo of you and Painuser. I agree with cca1ss1e's thought process of you being more color commentary and entertainment/excitment provider to Taylor's analysis which generally works pretty well in the model of traditional pro-sports commentary.
Now for a few pieces of constructive criticism:
1 - less racial rooting: I know you play Z and Painuser plays T and its SO hard not to root for a player that shares that characteristic with you. But I think it would raise the level of professionalism if the casters weren't allowing something as simple as the race-pick of a player to cause you guys to root for them; an especially high level of play or good execution of strategy should be what causes a caster to support a player, not their race. I would also make the pro-sports comparison here: local commentators often favor the home team in cast, but national coverage tries to be as unbias as possible. Given you guys are broadcasting to fans that play all races, there is no "home team" race that your audience will be 100% supporting with you.
That somewhat bleeds over into:
2 - neither of you are super-knowledgible on Toss: not terribly relevant at the current date where Toss's are having major struggle-bears at the top level  ; but I think match-ups where a Toss is involved (particularly PvP, especially since its no longer all 4gate and the matchup-meta is FINALLY evolving) I'd say your quality decreases slightly. Play some Toss (or random) or try to study up on them more if you want to improve as a full-time caster, as opposed to solely keeping your level of playing as high as you can with just zerg. Gretorp I think did this, and while he is obviously no P super-expert I actually have seen him improving his Toss knowledge consideribly since I started watching him at the start of NASL1 where he only really knew T.
3 - observing: not the best I've ever seen. I'm not sure if you or Painuser controls the crowd view but I think it's you? Sometimes miss drops or side-engagements that require high mini-map awareness. Since Painuser was the higher level player at your respective pinnacles maybe he could do it slightly better. Or you can just practice checking the minimap more often. The obs was by no means done poorly, but could have been improved. GSL I think uses a non-caster to do the observing which probably helps as one person can 100% focus on that and not be worrying about having to be talking and interacting with the other caster the whole time. Also Hot Bid has made obs skills for stuff like TL attack where often times he isn't talking too much.
3a - More production tab, less income tab: Unit tab is also a better place for worker comparison as you can see army size simultaneously, and the income tab is often misleading if at the moment you open it a player is doing a transfer or something. (Except for when a T is 30 workers behind and drops 6 mules on a gold and instantly has more income than his opponent, we need to continue to point out how fucking broken this is. I'm kidding ofcourse. But not really.)
Hopefully this is the kind of thing you were looking for. And while my favorite casters will probably always remain Day9 + djWheat I really do enjoy you guys, too. IPL3 was awesome and I loved it from start to finish! (except for when an eagle tried to kill esports ) Stephano fighting!
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EPT
