Hey guys! As you guys all know I've been casting in the Starcraft 2 Community for quite sometime now, and have been personal friends with PainUser for nearly as long as well.
Recently, Painuser and I were both picked up to cast for the IPL, and we began working and building on our chemistry and rapport to improve our casting and make it as top notch/ high quality as possible.
I'm sure many of you guys tuned into IPL3 at Atlantic City, and listened to both of us cast and interact with the crowd. The event has now officially concluded, but Taylor and I both agreed that it would be very beneficial to get some feedback from the community.
We're always looking to improve, and personally for me, I understand that one of my biggest faults has been lack of knowledge. I gave it my 100% effort to improve on this over my casts of late, and I hope that some of you guys have been able to enjoy the cast more thoroughly as a result. There will always be mistakes, but that is what this thread is for In the end, we definitely attempted to find the right balance and make our broadcast of IPL3 AC as entertaining, thoughtful, funny, and analytical as possible.
Anyways, Taylor and I would love to hear more of your feedback, constructive criticism, and compliments. All of this is to help point us in the right direction, and at the end of the day make Starcraft 2 a little more fun/exciting to watch! So please let us know if you guys enjoyed us casting, or if you'd rather listen to Nails on a chalkboard , and if yes or no, please explain why or how we can improve in your post!
Thanks guys!
Update: I just want to say, thanks very much for the comments and constructive criticism so far! Taylor and I are going to have a VERY THOROUGH look at everything and definitely try to improve and hone our craft that much more. Definitely seems like there is some back and forth with people on both sides of the fence.
Thank you guys so much for everything thus far!
Poll: Did you overall enjoy our Cast at IPL3 AC?
No! (1376)
53%
Yes! (1242)
47%
2618 total votes
Your vote: Did you overall enjoy our Cast at IPL3 AC?
i like painuser but not you. theres a lot of stuff you miss and you have very little idea of how a sc2 game progresses, instead you just make bland and vague statements which are mostly corrected by painuser.
actually painuser is one of my facorite casters, up there with da9 and tastosis. his calls are fantastic and he has nice analysis too. plus he doesnt scream about chinese infantry
edit: Maybe I should add more... I think he did well during the IPL qualifiers too. I didn't see all the games, but I saw enough. I think his biggest fault is that most of his game knowledge is strictly Terran. There's also always a hint of Terran bias, but I can live with those faults.
edit again: A poll was added. I voted 'no'. As much as I like Painuser, there's no way I can vote 'yes' if the poll doesn't allow me to single him out. If there were a poll for only Painuser, I'd vote 'yes'.
I think you're both great, good chemistry.. painuser has really nice analyses of the games which adds quality to the casts.. I usually think of him as the artosis or day9 to HDs tasteless.
To be honest, I hardly care what the casting is like in most tournaments as long as the games are good. But since I used to be a close follower of your youtube videos and I like Painuser, I've enjoyed your casting at the IPL, including the qualifiers. I know some people will be more picky but overall good job.
Painuser did exceptionally well, and HD you need a little more work, not that i could do better T_T. But it doesn't sound like your fluent enough when talking. Maybe its just me. Overall the cast was enjoyable. Oh Dun talk during starts of commercials you can hear from painuser "Were in a commercial" and you respond "oh"
offtopic : please host IPL4 at a noncasino I think you guys deserved a bigger crowd, the 21+ was a crowd killer for many under 21 : (
You're awesome HD. Almost no caster has a perfect knowledge of the game, but as long as you keep working at it I have no doubt you'll continue to improve. The synergy between you and Taylor has always been great (watched a ton of the IPL stream throughout the season). I would suggest just asking more questions of some of the high level players you know in order to see what's 'in' with the meta game and potential builds/counters you might see.
Hey HD, I hope you read this message. From one caster to another, I want to say that I think you guys did a great job. Your excitement is fantastic. Don't lose it. My friends who don't play SC2 were watching with me even turned to me saying "Wow this guy gets all pumped and makes me feel excited too!" My only suggestion is to continue loosening up. It seems you guys were very tense and forced laughs. As a result, there were moments of awkwardness in terms of your co-casting dynamics.
As for the other complaints like "lack of knowledge" or whatever the general complaints--that's all hearsay and personal preference. Keep your style and just work on meshing better with PainUser. GL in the future
Very well done, sometimes I wish some of the filler content you have between games talks more about the series or the next matchup or maps.. instead of the random conversation you have. Maybe it is just personal opinion, but it seems like when the gameplay is not live you make it into more of a radio show then a cast.
Overall I think you both did an amazing job and don't think the negativity while not displayed in this thread (so far) was warranted. The occasional blunder due to the excitement of the moment or just needing to say something is understandable and I think people just want to pick on every little mistake. Great Job and I'm sure you are critical of yourself and know what is good and bad. Keep it up and I'm sure your next appearance will be better yet.
I think you too often get excited about things that seem like they might happen, but then don't. I don't really know how to describe this just through words, but I'll try.
For instance, if a Terran does an 8 marine medivac drop behind the minerals, and starts shooting the queen while lings get sent over, you'll shout:
"THE QUEEN IS GOING TO..."
...and then you'll start pausing and waiting to see what's actually going to happen. If the lings come in soon enough that the marines get pushed out and the queen lives, you'll awkwardly trail off into:
"... LIVE... through the marines"
It sounds so weird. I think you should try to contain your excitement a bit in these situations. If you aren't sure what is about to happen, don't get super hyped about it because it makes for a weird announcement stream.
I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
HD I think you and Painuser did great dude! You are great at making a game exciting and thats why so many people joined sc2 because of you.
Perhaps the only thing I might suggest to HD is to focus a bit more on the colour commentary part a bit more. You are so great at it and it is definitely your strength! You do have good knowledge but I always think the one with better ability there should focus mostly on analysis, and Painuser has a bit better of a knowledge base I think. It is obviously best if it is a bit of a mix though for sure so keep on working on both parts.
Painuser should just continue brushing up as much as possible on the "new" strats. He does it well already but everyone can improve and that seems the key to your position in casting pairs
Thanks for all the good casts and hard work from both
HD you have a fantastic casting voice, personality, and are enthusiastic, but I think you are suited much more the introductory role and 'introductory face of eSports' as of now. The person who you show your friends 'Hey this is legit, look at this guy's youtube".
If by just putting in time (and there really is no substitute for time) for more game knowledge I think you be much improved. The problem really is keeping up with the current trends, metagame, players and player matchups, and so much more of what makes Starcraft so interesting. That is a lot, A LOT of hours.
Personally for me I like to have a calm and informative cast where only the truly important things are pointed out and hyped, but I am picky and have been watching pro SC for 5 years now. So I didn't look forward to when you casted games in the IPL :[
Remember that the internet can be stupid critical and keep at it!
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
This is an excellent way to benefit your style and suspense as well. I'd love for someone to adopt this kind of approach in casting games, especially where the production is unknown. On the other hand a lot of people might enjoy watching because of the poker like aspect where they can see and know how much trouble or how safe a player is because of that production tab.
Extra Credits did a good episode on what makes eSports entertaining and they bring that up. (5:38) I loved the suspense of BW partly because I wasn't sure of what was going on all the time. There's suspense in the fact that Terran might be engaging and the viewer doesn't know if Thermal Lance is finished, 5 seconds from finishing, or was completely forgotten.
To start, you guys did a good job casting. It wasn't great, but it definitely wasn't bad.
The number one thing is you need to let Painuser make the predictions and do the analysis. Do the play by play while he breaks down what that play means for the audience. I mean no offense, but he knows the game on a deeper level as he is a high level player. This doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't cast Starcraft. It just means you need to let him do the thinking stuff. Be the Tasteless, the djWheat. Don't be the Artosis or the Day9.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
HD you've definitely made improvements that are noticeable over the progress of the IPL. From the IPL Qualifiers to the actual tournament in Atlantic City, you definitely gained some casting skills, although they could still use a little work as you said. You're knowledge of the game is definitely increasing which makes your casting flow with Painuser's much better. As far as entertainment goes, for me it was a lot of fun listening to both of you over the course of the tournament.
Painuser does a pretty good job analyzing the game, he is fairly entertaining although he leeches off of you a bit! Still fun to listen to But Painuser could definitely tone down his terran opinion a bit, which sounds sort of dumb to say but often times it leads to incorrect statements of battles and tech transitions.
You both make for an entertaining cast that also does a great job analyzing the games. Not sure if you two plan on casting other tournaments as well as the next IPL, but I hope you do because it's only getting better
I'm sorry to say, your game sense was below par for this one. Making wrong calls etc flies if you let yourself be carried by your co-caster. You, for better (you are sometimes entertaining, but, unfortunately not every time you try, and it shows) and for worse, do not.
Painusers sense for the T matchups is very good. People say he is biased because of this. Well, theres a Terran slant on everything he says. That is not a problem, it is an asset. Even for me as a Zerg.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
I'd just like to throw out there that I completely disagree with this. I think you should do the opposite of what he is saying.
Don't talk about what I can see with my own eyes. Talk about the upcoming strategies and flow of the game, and absolutely turn on the production tab to give me a chance to spot things that are being done that you miss.
unlike most people, I don't actually care too much about analysis, because I can see them quite a lot myself through the production tab and expo and mini map. so I am more concern with the atmosphere and casters ability to entertain me and of cause their voice. personally I find pain user quite dull to listen to, the voice tone is too low or bored.
I find that painuser is a good/knowledgable terran; however, I feel his knowledge of protoss and zerg are limited. I dont think he appreciates how hard it is to do some of the things that many P or Z players do and belittle their skill. On the otherhand, I feel he over-hypes how hard it is to play terran and he really comes off as bias toward terran being UP and always rooting for terran players
HD is an excellent caster who I think will continue to improve with time. No specific praise or negative comments come to mind.
I would thumbs down painuser and thumbs up HD Overall, I voted yes as you are a better duo than most
toooooooooooo much hype you guys hype the shit out of some stupid shit just relax a bit.
i know it is in your eyes beneficial to hype stuff up but when someone plays like shit or both play like shit dont try to make there game better then it is.
dont pretend to know something when you dont just give ME the information that i need.
try to keep up with the information that player x has from player y to anticipate his thoughts (when you are able to do that) when you are not able to do that stfu dont try to guess some stupid stuff.
I think the both of you did excellent actually. Great casts all around, i guess some people could say there was some bias but I don't mind that, it shouldn't just be cookie cutter, just describe the match only with no emotion. Keep up the good work, looking forward to see more of you guys.
Honestly... the only thing that bothers me about your casting is the usage of "bling" to refer to a baneling. I have no clue why it bothers me but it is such a small part of the cast I can overlook it
HD please stop saying m&m a lot, it just sounds very awkward in live casts. I know it's a common abbreviation in SC2 but actually saying it out loud in casting is totally different. Either say marine/maurader or use the word "bio." You also make a lot of miss calls so be careful on what you say.
also read the ipl3 caster combo thread, many people stated their opinions there
It just really seemed like you guys are awkward up there, and that makes me feel awkward watching it. Where as Tastosis and DJ wheat and that other guy just seemed to flow so nicely. This is just my personal preference. But I love Painuser from hearing him on state of the game, and HD you pretty much got me into starcraft by your youtube in the beta.
I think you guys get the job done. Happy and excited and both know about the game. I only enjoy the cast if it is somebody that makes me laugh or knows a whole lot about the game so I didn't really enjoy it but for a casual player and fans it was really good. I guess work on the dorky banter, jokes and game knowledge if you can but you guys do a good enough already. I liked wheat and apollo the most out of the 3 pairs with you guys pretty much right behind them and then radio voice and hack artosis way at the bottom.
Your miscalls and generic humor really turn me off during casts. Also, your "excited" voice is exceptionally grating. PainUser is fairly decent however.
I think neither of you was the assertive play by play guy and thats the problem. You would go off talking about the game in general, like noobie talk. Zerg COULD go for banelings, blah blah blah.. meanwhile important shit is happening on the minimap and you're not talking about it or even noticing it. During high level games
It's okay to have one guy who can jabber to do filler, but one guy has to take over talking aggressively as soon as important things in the game happen. I feel like neither man in this casting archon has a high level knowledge of the game, and dreaded seeing you guys cast the finals over one of the other caster combos. I know every tournament can't be Tastosis and Day9 but I don't think its unreasonable to expect people casting the game to have a high level knowledge of the game in the FINALS.
HD, even though you lack the knownledge of game, your hype is good for cast, but I advise you to do more research into player history and the game,try to follow the metagame to make up for the lack of knownledge. I am a protoss and zerg player so I suggest Painuser stop his bias toward terran, he did it so obvious, little bias like Mr.Bitter can be good, but Painuser biased toward terran players and the race is getting stupid for other people who do not play terran to watch, It is the same with Gretorp in NASL 1 when he play terran. They always try to overweight the skill of terran player and try to talk down or under rate the skill of other race, It is frustrating for me, and I do not know why but Painuser seem to know only terran , I mean his analysys about protoss and zerg really lacking, I dont know why, but even I am master and I can make better judgement on other race than him.
And seriously, when someone is ahead, both of you guys do not even notice it, when the game is already over, you guys try to make it like It is still going on lol, I dont know what to say about that, It make viewer who played the game felt dumb and cheat. For example: you guys talk about comeback when that person is ahead the whole game, and make it look like it real, I felt insane during that, and when idra has about 180 supply, thestc have about 110 supply in game 2, you HD even try to say thestc is ahead, and idra have to do something to comeback Edit: and I remember something else after someone after me post, Painuser always call the engagement in terran biased way, like when the terran army is way bigger, for example 20 marine 10marauders vs 15 stalkers, 5 tanks and trilion of marine vs 50 supply of zergling + bling and 8 mutas. He always talk like terran is at disadvantage, .... wtf, is Painuser trying to say zerg and toss more OP than terran.
Anyway, for caster, a good caster for me, is unbiased, good hype, good knownledge and analysys, and follow the metagame. I used to like artosis a lot, but he is not very interested in the game now, except for nestea mb. Right now, I actually like the duo dApollo + DJ wheat alot after IPL3, they knew what they talk about, dApollo know a lot about player history and his way of analysis is great, DJwheat, even though he play zerg, but his talk is alway warm heart for everyone. dApollo is a big plus for me when he talks so much about a player history, in a good way even some "unknown korean" in HD+ painuser point of view, lucky, alive ....WTF alive code S, lucky is in top 8 code A recently and he has been playing well in korean weekly.
and here is a bad example of caster for me. DoA who always say the obvious and even described players style when he does not know who they are, like when the first time he watch ret play, and said "you know, ret style is so interesting, his mutalisks harass is always on top, he is the type of player that always on top of the game and try to control the game", some new player might be deceived by that, but seriously, DOA describe every player the same thing, I mean wtf, ret is always droning. And his knownledge is even worse than HD, seriously with the lack of game understanding for a caster, you guys should try to make the hype better and do more research into player history and stuff.
itmeJP, Tasteless are this type of caster, they are very good when pairing with good knownledge caster. when a situation happen, for example go 15 hatch in ZvP or some strange build order they ask "artosis, what do you think of this build" and our master will analysis all over that and that is so good to hear for players.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Yeah this is actual a terrible idea please never do this. ever. I've learned so many good builds by watching the production tab during games.
On topic though, you guys are pretty good, you seem to work well with each other Overall I think theres nowhere to go but up for you guys.
i think you need to learn the game more HD, its been posted numerous times on your youtube channel since you first started too. doesnt seem like there was any improvement. you just started yelling more
In-game it was pretty good, but your crowd interaction and sponsor plugs need some work! Also, you seemed quite nervous, which is natural I guess seeing as it's your first time in front of a huge crowd.
I'd like to get more info on the players themselves. What notable things they've achieved, what's their playstyle, what's their strongest match-up(if relevant), and anything else interesting.
I think you guys should try with a dedicated obs, the observing (which I presume was done by HD) was a little bit lackluster, and I assume it affected your calls/flow sometimes as well, sometimes slipping a little bit. Pretty much only production bar was shown for entire games in a row, it is possible to be abit more active with them, use them hotkeys bro'
I think also, for an event like IPL, reseaching _all_ of the players thourughly (spelling ) makes a _really_ good impression on the viewers - I just love being bombed by dApollo with a players ladderstats, winrates vs. certain race, recent strategies etc - It just does alot for the experience. It should be possible with such a relative defined pool of players.
On the positive side, I loved how you handled the Sponsor-shoutouts.. Im pretty sure Visine is pretty happy with you guys by now =)
I voted "Yes!" but I do still think you guys have some areas where you can improve.
For Painuser specificly, I'm very very happy with your 'terran bias' as some call it... There are soo many casters that are P and Z, and yet very few Terran casters. Your insight is very cool, so please don't try to change that
The weird thing is, it's not that either of you are bad casters. I think you're both fine casters... but somehow together something is missing.
I don't know if it's in need of a dedicated observer, a different style to work with eachother, changing places, I dunno'... but something doesn't click for me.
It should be noted, I think you're both fine. But something is holding you back from the next level. Obviously more knowledge/background about players and builds always helps, but that's not what I see as the problem.
edit: I think a more defined role as play-by-play/analyst/color-commentator needs to be fleshed out when you're together.
PainUser is easily my favorite caster out there, and I think you guys have a solid chemistry together. I really think you need to spend more time analyzing army compositions, and figuring out which side will come out ahead.
I'd also like to see less racial bias, and I don't think it's ever appropriate to point out who you're rooting for. I'm not even sure you should be pointing out which race you play during a cast. You should be as neutral as possible while providing insight into both players or teams.
SF Giants have the best announcers in sports, definitely look there for inspiration.
I think you guys need to work on your zerg/terran bias and race knowledge in general, but otherwise I enjoy your casting to be honest. You guys are really great. I think what would be helpful is for you guys to play the other races (mainly protoss) and learn a bit more from the other race's perspective. Build orders, decisions etc, are hard to really comment on if you don't really play the race. I know both of you play your own race at a pretty high level but I think it'll benefit your casting if you play other races for a significant amount of time.
Only thigns that turn me off are when Painuser is saying "MAKE SOME NOISE" he does something weird with the mic like he is trying to be an announcer at a basketball game or something. It just comes out weird and distorted. If he just said make some noise at a bit higher level it would be fine, but the mic gets weird or he does something to the mic.
Also, sometimes you guys overstate the importance of stuff, Ala Gretorp NASL season 1.
From what I saw of the games you casted in IPL3, the camera always seemed to be jerked around and switching to different areas of the map way too quickly. Smoother movements would be great!
Your switching to the graphical overlays right after a critical engagement has good timing but maybe leave the overlay on slightly longer, it always felt like you were showing it for a split second and I always only barely had time to absorb the information
On October 11 2011 15:41 Novalisk wrote: I'd like to get more info on the players themselves. What notable things they've achieved, what's their playstyle, what's their strongest match-up(if relevant), and anything else interesting.
This. Study their replays if you have time, even (by no means necessary, but it could help). That is something most viewers don't go out of their way to do unless they are really interested in the player.
Not much happens in the early game for the most part, so perhaps analyzing the map might also be useful for killing time, as opposed to trying to predict what a player might do when no solid prediction can be derived at that time. It may sound insignificant, but it may prove to be insightful for lesser players. A plus if a player uses the map to their advantage later in the game too!
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
The reason starcraft is fun to watch is the fact that you know what is happening and are going to see how it plays out. Will the other player find out what his opponent is making? Will he blind counter it? Will he get demolished? If we did not know what was building we would not have anticipation built up.
If you browse TL and reddit, you might find negative comments regarding who commentated the finals. Please don't take that as a form of feedback on your casting quality. It is more of a reflection of a preference between commentators. If duo A is heavily preferred over duo B in a certain situation, it does not mean duo B is bad. It simply means duo A is deemed better for the situation.
With that said, I guess i'll outline the few things that I don't like about commentating in general that could be applied your commentating this weekend. I do not like when obviously wrong calls are being made about the game at hand. Whether that is screaming out who's winning a fight, how a build order is going to play out, or what's going to happen next. I understand mistakes happen, and i'm perfectly fine with that fact, but sometimes it gets out of hand. For example, if a commentator were to say that a player is in trouble because he's not building a certain unit while he is very clearly building that unit and the commentator doesn't notice until there are five of them on the field. Or, if 10 stalkers engage 15 stimmed marauders with medivacs and the commentator starts calling the engagement for the protoss. These are little things that can only be corrected by having more knowledge about the game and paying more attention. It often feels as though I am paying more attention to the game than the commentators. I think this is one of the reasons why artosis is considered an excellent commentator. Game knowledge and eloquence aside - he doesn't miss a beat and always has a very good sense of what is going on. I cannot think of many times where, as a spectator, I am concerned about something in the game that artosis hasn't already covered. This quality seems unfortunately rare in commentators, but if you're looking to become one of the greatest, it seems necessary.
On the same page as paying attention, the only thing about the IPL that I did not absolutely love was the observer camera work. I'm not sure who was working the camera in the HD/painuser duo, but across all three pairs, I often found myself screeching in my basement as drop after drop after engagement after runby after engagement after drop was missed time and time again. Although it might not pertain necessarily to 'commentating', if your line of work has you working the camera often, I would really recommend working on it. I don't care about a jerky camera or a camera that is moving too fast if that's the price of seeing what's going on in the game. I know its almost impossible to catch everything going on all the time, but there is a clear difference in camera work between different commentators, which indicates that there is probably room for improvement for a lot of them.
These things i've listed probably aren't a very big deal to people who enjoy starcraft on a more casual level, and they are literally the only two bits of feedback I could think of right now. However, if you want your commentating to appeal to a more knowledgeable audience and do justice to the quality of games being viewed, I think it is vital. I know HD and husky are often viewed as entry level commentators for people who aren't extremely knowledgeable about starcraft. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but if you want to commentate the play of some of the best competitors in the world on the biggest stages, I would hope for the sake of knowledgeable viewers everywhere that the commentator can keep up with what the players are doing.
Wall of text aside, I wish to be clear that I think that all the commentators at the IPL did a phenomenal job this weekend. I hesitate to even post the feedback because it feels negative and I didn't feel anything but positivity after watching.
I guess I could summarize my post quite easily: Purely by listening, I got the impression that apollo is heavily involved with the professional scene. He has intimate knowledge of builds, strategies, and even personal information about players. He rarely misunderstood what a player was trying to do. It made his commentating incredibly enjoyable for me to listen to. No other commentators gave me the impression that they follow the highest level of play closely, aside from painuser (though the impression from apollo was stronger). If you can find a way to give that impression to viewers like me, I would be hard pressed to find anything bad to say about your commentating. If you want to continue to appeal to the more casual viewers (which there is absolutely nothing wrong with), you are doing an absolutely fantastic job. If you want to broaden your viewer base to include the more knowledgeable viewers, you need to speak their language.
I am confident that Apollo and wheat were the commentators of preference this weekend only because djwheat doesn't make any big mistakes and apollo always has a very good idea of what's going on. All the commentators at the IPL were equally amazing in all other categories.
On October 11 2011 15:05 FrodaN wrote: Hey HD, I hope you read this message. From one caster to another, I want to say that I think you guys did a great job. Your excitement is fantastic. Don't lose it. My friends who don't play SC2 were watching with me even turned to me saying "Wow this guy gets all pumped and makes me feel excited too!" My only suggestion is to continue loosening up. It seems you guys were very tense and forced laughs. As a result, there were moments of awkwardness in terms of your co-casting dynamics.
As for the other complaints like "lack of knowledge" or whatever the general complaints--that's all hearsay and personal preference. Keep your style and just work on meshing better with PainUser. GL in the future
I also have the same impression, your both casting well in my opinion, but you don't seem really confortable doing so. It's somehting that is hard to change, but if you can be more relaxed I think it would help with your casting. Concerning the game knowledge of HD, i think it's ok ifff he fills the role of the play by play commentator.
the only problem i had was all the constant annoying clapping you guys kept doing beside your mics.... if you are the casters please dont clap into your microphone.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
The reason starcraft is fun to watch is the fact that you know what is happening and are going to see how it plays out. Will the other player find out what his opponent is making? Will he blind counter it? Will he get demolished? If we did not know what was building we would not have anticipation built up.
Uh what the fuck? Where has critical thinking gone!?!?!? Have you never watched brood war? You can casually look, manually, as a caster, at his base. Click on a building cyber core, hes building a core! Theres something to be said about the anticipatory excitement of seeing what hatches out of an egg, or wondering how many workers were killed in a raid, or visually seeing a six pool go down rather than simply being aware of it due to some pictures in the top left. Having watched broodwar for 5-6 years I can tell you the usage of these features in casting sc2 does nothing but makes it worse. For everyone, statement to the contrary are merely ignorance.
HD did pretty well and keeps improving. I really like Painuser as a caster. I think he should start being invited to some of the big events.
My complaint is when casters call a game over when it's not. I think you guys have done this as well. Even if it looks really dire I still don't like people calling it over until it is 100% certain.
I respect the fact that you made this thread. I'm sure you will keep getting better! Keep it up!
Edit: There are a lot of negative comments that I wish people would phrase more as constructive criticism. It will sound harsh going through the thread but pay attention to the positives as well. <3
Statistics, use some player statistics, even if its just the last 10 matches in TLPD, or their last IPL matches.
Korean Metagame, it seems like you are both clueless in this aspect, Painuser knows American Metagame quite well, and can cast America and European games because of this, but when Korean games come you are both set back.
Dont be afraid to cut the other guy off his non important story, to talk about Starcraft, sure it may be improper etiquette, but you're getting paid, so etiquette is not important .
HD: You need to be more precise in what you're saying, even if you're trying to say it fast, I don't have much sympathy for you in this aspect since this is your job as the play by play caster, but stop tripping over words every single cast, and just slow down and give precise play by play. If play by play is truly what you want to do, then start studying the craft.
PainUser: Stop being so awkward. Hard to ask i know, but just stop !
Dont just correct HD why he is wrong, inform everyone why HD is wrong ! You've done it a few times, but not always.
I don't think its your knowledge itself that is bad, since it is my understanding that you are masters and therefore most likely more knowledgeable than a decent proportion of people who critique you it (and also most likely more knowledgeable than some of the other casters, such as Catspyjamas).
However I think where the problem arises is that when something happens that a particular caster doesn't understand, then they usually either don't say anything or handball to their co-caster for their input/judgement on what is happening, whereas a lot of the time you just try take a stab at what you think is going on and consequentially look stupid when it turns out to be wrong.
It could maybe be a nervous thing where you feel obliged to keep talking and trying to analyse everything or something like that.
Whilst it is always good to keep expanding your knowledge, it would probably go a long way to just think through what is going on before saying anything, and if you are unsure then ask your co-caster instead of just talking shit to try create filler.
Something small as well but mix up your language a bit, hearing 'eminem' all the time can get annoying.
I used to watch your youtube casting quite a lot and from what I can recall you seemed very comfortable casting over youtube, so maybe it was just the nerves causing you to lose focus and create filler.
TLDR; If you don't know what is going on, either ignore it and wait to see what happens and talk about it then, or ask your co-caster, don't just take a stab in the dark.
Edit: Not saying you shouldn't be constantly improving your knowledge or anything, I just think this point compounds the effect of lack of knowledge.
You are certainly brave to open yourself up to such an easy avenue for direct criticism in a place where often unhappy people reply a higher % of the time than possibly more people who were perfectly content with a product/event.
Overall I really liked your casting, and the combo of you and Painuser. I agree with cca1ss1e's thought process of you being more color commentary and entertainment/excitment provider to Taylor's analysis which generally works pretty well in the model of traditional pro-sports commentary.
Now for a few pieces of constructive criticism: 1 - less racial rooting: I know you play Z and Painuser plays T and its SO hard not to root for a player that shares that characteristic with you. But I think it would raise the level of professionalism if the casters weren't allowing something as simple as the race-pick of a player to cause you guys to root for them; an especially high level of play or good execution of strategy should be what causes a caster to support a player, not their race. I would also make the pro-sports comparison here: local commentators often favor the home team in cast, but national coverage tries to be as unbias as possible. Given you guys are broadcasting to fans that play all races, there is no "home team" race that your audience will be 100% supporting with you.
That somewhat bleeds over into: 2 - neither of you are super-knowledgible on Toss: not terribly relevant at the current date where Toss's are having major struggle-bears at the top level ; but I think match-ups where a Toss is involved (particularly PvP, especially since its no longer all 4gate and the matchup-meta is FINALLY evolving) I'd say your quality decreases slightly. Play some Toss (or random) or try to study up on them more if you want to improve as a full-time caster, as opposed to solely keeping your level of playing as high as you can with just zerg. Gretorp I think did this, and while he is obviously no P super-expert I actually have seen him improving his Toss knowledge consideribly since I started watching him at the start of NASL1 where he only really knew T.
3 - observing: not the best I've ever seen. I'm not sure if you or Painuser controls the crowd view but I think it's you? Sometimes miss drops or side-engagements that require high mini-map awareness. Since Painuser was the higher level player at your respective pinnacles maybe he could do it slightly better. Or you can just practice checking the minimap more often. The obs was by no means done poorly, but could have been improved. GSL I think uses a non-caster to do the observing which probably helps as one person can 100% focus on that and not be worrying about having to be talking and interacting with the other caster the whole time. Also Hot Bid has made obs skills for stuff like TL attack where often times he isn't talking too much.
3a - More production tab, less income tab: Unit tab is also a better place for worker comparison as you can see army size simultaneously, and the income tab is often misleading if at the moment you open it a player is doing a transfer or something. (Except for when a T is 30 workers behind and drops 6 mules on a gold and instantly has more income than his opponent, we need to continue to point out how fucking broken this is. I'm kidding ofcourse. But not really.)
Hopefully this is the kind of thing you were looking for. And while my favorite casters will probably always remain Day9 + djWheat I really do enjoy you guys, too. IPL3 was awesome and I loved it from start to finish! (except for when an eagle tried to kill esports ) Stephano fighting!
Painuser is pretty good, no complaints about him as he has the experience and knowledge from playing this game at a decent level. HD... you just need to improve. You try too hard to make jokes that it comes off as unnatural, your game knowledge is lacking beyond the superficial, and you just need to focus more on how battles and strategies play out. Your accuracy in predicting the outcomes of battles and builds is pretty low, so I'd say try that as a starting point.
I enjoyed Painusers smooth voice.. But not yours HD, I avoid you like the black plague, even with that being said, I kinda enjoyed the finals. Less talking about shit you don't know and more talking shit about what you do know and maybe you'll come over as an educated caster rather then a struggling diamond player speaking their mind.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Don't ever do this - I'd rather the other tabs didn't exist and all games always showed the production tab. I hate it when the observer shows any other tab.
Many casters don't understand what is going on in the game and unless there is a dedicated obs because of their poor game sense they miss drops, expos and tech switches. Production tab helps the viewer so much.
I have mostly praise, but a couple significant criticisms.
First and foremost I think it's important to say that I enjoy watching you two cast games. Both of you have likable personalities and it seems the two of you have clicked on a personal level, and it shows in your casting. I have no issues with your handling of sponsor shoutouts, your segways between matches, your excitement levels, or your technical knowledge of T or Z.
But it is somewhat obvious that neither of you knows P particularly well. Whereas when casting T and Z games you two will often put yourselves in a players shoes to describe how you might handle a situation, we hardly get that at all when watching P. It might do you some good to spend some more time off-racing.
The other criticism (and by far the most important one) I have is not related to live events, but rather all of the IPL casts leading up to the big event. Quite simply, you guys accidentally spoil the outcome of a match constantly. Painuser is more guilty of this than yourself, but it happens all the time... Seriously, go through a few weeks of broadcasts and check how many times you guys say "this is the final match" when it could have easily been extended had the other person won. And that's just the most blatant example... there's lots of other subtle word choices that constantly ruin outcomes. I truly believe it would be for the best if the two of you were not aware of the outcomes of matches before casting them.
All in all, I'm happy to have you two around. There are some rough edges that can be fixed with a few minor tweaks, but you two both have a good future in this.
Painuser - enjoy your casting, good game knowledge, doesn't try overly hard to crack awful jokes and gives good insight into what is going on.
HD - you seem like a nice guy and have a genuine interest for the game, but like many other casters your game knowledge is lacking. Also too many tryhard jokes...my recommendation would be to play alot more, watch more reps and VODs to learn the game.
On October 08 2011 10:55 Hnnngg wrote: My first born son for HD and PU to never cast an Idra game again.
It's true. Very few casters have anything original to say when casting. Most of them are repeating stock phrases which sometimes don't describe the situation very well, and PainUser and HD unfortunately are the worst offenders, along with TB.
If you ever see a Tastosis or DayjWHEAT casting of an Idra game where he loses, they don't automatically go to, "OH MY FUNNY NUMBIE, IDRA JUST RAGEQUIT, HE COULD HAVE MADE A COMEBACK, HE GG'D TOO EARLY". Especially when White-Ra has enough resources to get 10 more colossus and Idra has 0 gas and no more bases.
The worst offense of HD+PU casting, and the easiest one to fix. Everything else would be up to opinion (yelling with a strategy game, some people like the frothing shoutcasting) or would take some dedication.
Husky actually got out of the rut of being a "bad" caster. I'm not sure if it was the partnership with Day9 or he changed something, but he seemed so much more cognitive with his casting. If I were you, I'd definitely ask him what he did right before that MLG.
I liked the casting quite a bit and i don't think your game knowledge is bad. There are just some facepalm moments, like mentioned earlier that you said how the lings give you mapcontrol, even though they did not have speed and there were hellions on the map. ^^ I am sure you'll find a way to get rid of these moments and focus on saying stuff that you know is 100% right. PainUser has really great analysis. If he wants to improve, he could take some voice lessons, to make the tone of his voice a bit softer. It sometimes sounds a bit squeezed out (no offence, I don't know a better word to describe. sorry ^^). Overall well done.
You guys did fine, you had some good chemistry together. But though you were good, you were not my favorite pair to listen to.
I'll reiterate what has mostly been said: let PU do the analysis and stick to the play-by-play action since PU seems to have a better idea of the state of the game. Your excitement definitely adds positively to the cast, but tone it down in some parts. Your excitement sometimes feels overbearing especially in situations that have minor consequence and I feel like if you reel it back a bit it will be much better.
Painuser - Pretty straightforward solid casting, nice game knowledge and insight and all that shit.
HD... - You have passion I guess but it comes off really bad when you say something strategy-related and most of the time you're just wrong. Your game knowledge is pretty lacking. Maybe you should focus more on play by play and leave the analysis to painuser?
Well, i didnt watch the IPL, but from previous matches i can say Painuser is a great caster in terms of analysis, his voice is maybe not the best for the job though. You really miss many stuff and state the obvious, but do that with such enthusiasm it makes it all good. Style matter more than game knowledge, and god i have day9 style casters...
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I have not seen such a poll, but if that is the case, then those people were wrong. It is a fact that uncertainty breeds excitement. I do not watch SC2 games so I can get a better rank in my bronze league by copying stuff I see. I watch it to be entertained and excited.
I thought you guys were ok, not great. Painuser's Terran bias annoyed me a lot sometimes, overplaying how much skill and intelligence it takes to do certain builds for T and downplaying how difficult it is to deal with as the defender (1-1-1 all-in vs Protoss, for example). I found the casting of both HD and Painuser to be vey lackluster in any game involving a Protoss. They don't seem to understand the race at all and would just say wrong things. They clearly have no clue how PvP works. I suggest they look into it more. It also seemed like they weren't quite up to speed on new strategy trends, particularly Korean strategies.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I have not seen such a poll, but if that is the case, then those people were wrong. It is a fact that uncertainty breeds excitement. I do not watch SC2 games so I can get a better rank in my bronze league by copying stuff I see. I watch it to be entertained and excited.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I have not seen such a poll, but if that is the case, then those people were wrong. It is a fact that uncertainty breeds excitement. I do not watch SC2 games so I can get a better rank in my bronze league by copying stuff I see. I watch it to be entertained and excited.
This confirms what I kinda suspected earlier. Just a troll. Move along.
I like how after the HDH HD sets out to become a better player and becomes a master lvl zerg (if i am not mistaken) even plays at an MLG, lost ofc but he played. Husky doesn't do that. -> Husky casts with Day9 at MLG and everyone praises him for how much he has improved, but HD gets the same stuff about lack of knowledge and bland statements. Not saying it's not true, but at least be consistent with those statements.
Actual feedback... don't know. I liked you both. Not my favorite casters, but you are better than the code A casters imo.
The first is that I think what i'd rather hear are the little things that we miss out on in watching, or perhaps at least more specific details of what happened.
As a caster of a video, we can see what's happening, but might not necessarily understand the little details.
The general 'oh his zealots are at the back' or 'the concave is bad' i think you do manage to say, which is all well and good. But I think there exists another level of detail which you could go into; he pulled back to this part of the map which is beneficial/detrimental; he's choosing not to snipe the broodlords because xyz, he's playing a unit composition because he's hoping for xyz.
And then there are all these little small things that the pro-gamers do which really sets them apart, or at least have little habits that they do which you pick up; for example Stephano really likes to make use of his infested terrans and throws them often to soak tank splash before engaging, or for splash.
I guess that comes down to the whole 'know the game better.' The little intracies of the map, or the players, or the playstyles that helps us understand the finer nuances of what's happening.
The second thing is that I feel that people are often put off by you HD is that you tend to often act over the top. Gamers I find are a cynical bunch of folks, and I think dislike mass amounts of hyperbole as it feels like you're telling us that we should be excited. I guess you can compare Moletrap and Doa/Wolf in GSL code A. Moletrap is criticised of talking way to much, exaggerating everything. Doa and Wolf are more reserved. They break out their charm, but they dont do it in a way that seems to shove it in your face.
I think tastetosis is the exception because they have already won the viewers over and are celebrities in their own right. It's like when MC commentates; he doesnt say very much at all, but because he's MC we love him. Or imagine if Samuel L Jackson casted. He'd be bogshite crap, but cause it's Samuel L, i think we'd love him. Im not sure if you have quite the same rapport with the 'elite' sc2 watchers.
All the 'hip' speak and 'coolness' also doesnt work since most of us are nerds and dissociate with being 'cool' or at least revile it. Think Sheldon from Big Bang Theory. He's cool because he's not.
Minimap HD look at the minimap. I only saw a few games but if you go review your casts of lucky vs stephano and lucky vs the slayers you can see that you missed stuff quite a bit. There was one situation where marines + tank were going into zerg base. Both you and painuser said you didn't think zerg was ready then you were like "where did those lings come from?!" but if you had been watching minimap you would have seen him run out like 20 lings as soon as he saw the push coming I believe.
I couldn't tell if you guys were trying to give the audience a sense of dread but to anyone watching minimap it probably made you look bad.
Would say, stick to the play by play. Leave speculative analysis out of it for the pro/ex pro's or get practicing more.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I have not seen such a poll, but if that is the case, then those people were wrong. It is a fact that uncertainty breeds excitement. I do not watch SC2 games so I can get a better rank in my bronze league by copying stuff I see. I watch it to be entertained and excited.
I'd like to know how you get "entertained" or "excited" if you've already seen the match and you're watching it again.
How do you explain that when OGN broadcast WCG their amazing observer was unaware of the progress bars at first and left them off, and I watched the most exciting series of SC2 ever (for me) between MKP and Hero.
Your study proves nothing, and if you had any awareness of Korean Brood War, you would understand.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Don't ever do this - I'd rather the other tabs didn't exist and all games always showed the production tab. I hate it when the observer shows any other tab.
Many casters don't understand what is going on in the game and unless there is a dedicated obs because of their poor game sense they miss drops, expos and tech switches. Production tab helps the viewer so much.
1. Did you watch Hero vs MKP WCG a few weeks ago? 2. Have you ever watched any Pro BW games? 3. Do you think we should adjust our standards as fans to compensate for crappy incompetent 'me too' casters who for some reason think that predicting and refuting game outcomes is more exciting than just being excited and narrating? Really?
Do you want to watch progress bars, or do you want to watch a strategic postitional military sporting event? Ugh, this makes me so sad...
The good: you and painuser have GREAT synergy. Your excitement/enthusiasm for the game is awesome. No complaints about PainUser at all. I know people complain of his Terran bias but to be honest I never noticed it.
The bad : You get a little carried away - 3lings run into some guys natural and you're like "this could be disastrous!". Sometimes you call engagements the wrong way...not a huge deal since I know I do all the time (i usually lead my friends in team games since they are silver) but i know that irritates a lot of the good players. Once again this is where PainUser comes in - he's not afraid to call it differently and I think that helps you guys as a duo. You guys sometimes miss drops and such on the minimap.
The summary : I know the bad paragraph is triple the good. However, you guys are really good overall. Just get better at judging engagements and following the minimap and you'll be top tier. Near as I can tell the only way to do that is going to be to cast more games. Which is fine by me. I'll keep watching. IPL's been great since day 1 and IPL3 was freaking amazing.
have to agree with many of the negative criticisms here, mainly on how you miss things and some of your awkward casting habits.
Way back in beta-early launch-ish days I thought you and Husky were pretty awesome English castors (perhaps because there were virtually no one who started as early as you) but somewhere along the way, I started becoming less interested.
Personally, the favorite castors of mine are the korean bw castors. I don't even know their names (though I am Korean but only watched game channels from time to time) but they did their jobs marvelously. People fixate on REAVERREAVERREAVER kind of aspects of Korean casting, but they were truly great on the following from the perspective of someone who never played bw seriously (not in order of importance)
1) technical knowledge: they may be wrong, they may be right, but they never failed to take on the role (or the impression) of people who knew their shit about this game, and it felt like as if they were a kind of a guide sitting next to you on a thrilling ride (if that makes any sense... loool) 2) excitement: I mean this aspect (and arguably others) may be biased but they never failed to entertain. Here is where most foreigners quote REAVEREAVERREAVERREAVER or STORMSTORMSTORM as the trademark phrases and laugh at the absurdity/exaggeration of it and I can relate to that to a degree. But to me that only made sense considering the enormous hype and build-up they led the audience in from the very beginning of the game. Honestly, in a few days maybe weeks if longer, I will forget everything about the games I watched but what remains with you is the excitement, the 'nerd chills' that you felt. Perhaps the best and most critical things castors were able to do for me (and I'm sure for a good portion of the audience) was that they were able to translate the bashing of keyboards and flashes of images on screen to a shitstorm of battles of wits, personalities, and skills. They made sure that progamers were portrayed often as extraordinary or down right GODLY (I'd never have appreciated Jaedong and Flash without castors) 3) I thought I had more but... not sure what else to say atm maybe to edit in later
Perhaps I am just ignorant and biased, and I am sure that I am not all that much knowledgeable about details of what it takes a castor but I know for a fact that the reason why SC has been the game I played the longest (casually or competitively) is because of the way castors are able to captivate the audience in depicting SC games. In the end, I would just encourage you guys to keep doing what you guys are doing and just strive to improve. You've already stated that intention and that is good enough as is.
PS - its been a secret longing of mine to sub some of the older broodwar videos of original korean casts, as I think I've only seen one video on youtube that did that at all -- I feel like the non-korean community missed out and is still missing out on the treasure trove that is korean casting. With interests in SC/SC2 strong(er) as ever and number of Koreans that must be hanging around this website, I hope to see a project as such go into progress someday ^^ -- I know I deviated a lot not just in this PS but hopefully you will find bits that are useful to you. GL HD and Painuser!
For the most part it was well done. One minor change would have made it highly enjoyable. (Caveat being that few people care about details as much as I do) I would like to see you guys make sure that your commentary is correct. I noticed a few times that a player would have a bunch of buildings (say gateways) and then add more and you would say things like "oh he's going up to 6 gateways". When everyone paying close attention knows that the player had five and is adding two and is therefore going up to seven gates.
I realize that the casting is live and mistakes get made but it easier to say things like "oh he's adding two more gateways" and be correct more often if you don't remember how many he had before.
I hope this explanation makes sense.
Otherwise, I have HUGE appreciation for you coming and asking for feedback. Keep it up.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I have not seen such a poll, but if that is the case, then those people were wrong. It is a fact that uncertainty breeds excitement. I do not watch SC2 games so I can get a better rank in my bronze league by copying stuff I see. I watch it to be entertained and excited.
I'd like to know how you get "entertained" or "excited" if you've already seen the match and you're watching it again.
How do you explain that when OGN broadcast WCG their amazing observer was unaware of the progress bars at first and left them off, and I watched the most exciting series of SC2 ever (for me) between MKP and Hero.
Your study proves nothing, and if you had any awareness of Korean Brood War, you would understand.
I actually prefer the production facility on, and sometimes switch to unit tab, It is a great way to know how the game can progress. You can analysis thing yourself when caster missed it.
So you expect "excitement" when something pop out of nowhere and you are "wow" like DT + stargate play? banshee, tech switch, suddenly appear? lol the caster will most certainly not miss that, and If they miss it, they are bad caster, and I feel like you only want to watch the battle micro and stuff, not how the game going and the decision making by player. Production tab is the most important thing when observing a game. OGN did not turn it on because they do not have experience with sc2, in sc1 there is no technology like that, and their cast is so good because they did not miss a single thing on the map.
One of the criticisms people keep reiterating here (calling things) backs up my beef that we don't want predictions, we just want hype and descriptions.
I didn't see much of a chemistry between PainUser and HD. PainUser is an awkward guy with some knowlege of the game and HD is a lovely person, well spoken, but with a deficit of high level knowledge. If HD invests the time and learns all about the high level meta game then i could see him as a caster that i personally enjoy listening too.
I really don't like your casting. Game sense is one huge thing, I feel like you are one of the worst casters in this. You don't need to understand the game at a pro level but understand the scene and basic game level would be great. This includes knowing the Korean players and teams, understanding recent tournaments, and all of that.
I feel you're excitable and force way too much in your casting without understanding what's going on, instead of having a natural excitement. I feel like you focus too much on 1 player without considering the counterpoint.
Painuser is much better at all of that, but isn't as charismatic as some of the best casters. He could use a bit more practice in front of a camera.
HeyHD! Since your SC2 knowledge is lacking I think you should stick to more play by play commentary. Your energy and voice projection is great for that.
Also don't be so assertive with your analyzation because quite frankly it's not that great compared to the Painuser's & Artosis' of casters, and often time it's wrong or I'm not confident in believing you lol. Painuser is right next to you and he can awkwardly shut it down or correct you at any time (as he should if you want to correctly educate the viewers).
If you're going to analyze the game first you should work on if you know what you're saying is true, if not don't even try to analyze or make predictions unless you add some suggestive questioning to your analyzation so PainUser can chime in for a smooth transition. This is better than being awkwardly shut down or corrected for insisting wrong analyzation or predictions, and you learn about the game as do we.
Know your role and strengths. Look at DJWheat. If he's paired someone with superior and proven game knowledge, he sticks to a certain role and his strengths. Same with a lot of the other successful casters.
Overtime your SC2 knowledge will get better but for now, at least with high profile/player skilled matches for events, you should stick to your strengths and certain roles.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I have not seen such a poll, but if that is the case, then those people were wrong. It is a fact that uncertainty breeds excitement. I do not watch SC2 games so I can get a better rank in my bronze league by copying stuff I see. I watch it to be entertained and excited.
I'd like to know how you get "entertained" or "excited" if you've already seen the match and you're watching it again.
How do you explain that when OGN broadcast WCG their amazing observer was unaware of the progress bars at first and left them off, and I watched the most exciting series of SC2 ever (for me) between MKP and Hero.
Your study proves nothing, and if you had any awareness of Korean Brood War, you would understand.
I actually prefer the production facility on, and sometimes switch to unit tab, It is a great way to know how the game can progress. You can analysis thing yourself when caster missed it.
So you expect "excitement" when something pop out of nowhere and you are "wow" like DT + stargate play? banshee, tech switch, suddenly appear? lol the caster will most certainly not miss that, and If they miss it, they are bad caster, and I feel like you only want to watch the battle micro and stuff, not how the game going and the decision making by player. Production tab is the most important thing when observing a game. OGN did not turn it on because they do not have experience with sc2, in sc1 there is no technology like that, and their cast is so good because they did not miss a single thing on the map.
I am simply stunned.
Yes, things suddenly appearing are exciting. Why wouldn't they be? Are you aware that top BW observers sometimes hide buildings, units, and do not reveal what is being researched DELIBERATELY in order to promote excitement and suspense?
On October 11 2011 16:36 minhbq299 wrote: I feel like you only want to watch the battle [...] Production tab is the most important thing when observing a game.
I give up. You're a lost cause. Knowing a player is safe or has no chance of winning has no appeal to me. Clearly you only watch pro games to steal builds and timings. Good luck enjoying the speadsheets and powerpoints of life.
And having it as a crutch for garbage poser commentators/observers will only expose the ones who should be kicked out and promote the best observers faster.
HD, I'd just like to say that maybe you could improve on mini-map spotting and overall just be careful of making too many wrong calls if you're not sure. You're one of the best at bringing energy to a cast and I love you for it.
It's hard to criticize PainUser's casting because he is a great player and brings that extra bit of knowledge to the cast..and speaks in a fairly paced, analytical manner.
You guys make a great casting duo, but perhaps bring a different "casting vibe" to a live event as opposed to casting online qualifiers. Stylistically, you probably want less jokes and more in-depth analysis at live events, and more layed back, conversational casting when matches are less important. Both styles have their place and time.
Just chiming in to say that I really like you guys casting together. I can't comment on the specifics of your casting, I just like the way you interact with each other. It's way more special to get 2 guys who cast well together(like the beloved archon), than it is to just put together 2 random guys who are individually good casters but have no chemistry.
HD I have been following your youtube channel for a year I think and I must say - you are far more awesome in youtube than in live casting, thats probably because of stage fright(?).
I followed IPL as much as possible and allthough I liked you, it felt that you two were a bit "dry" on the part of jokes/spicing things up.
As I started to watch Youtube casts from you, really I thought why this guy is not casting live! And for someone who doesnt know play so well your awesome. Just for me in stage you miss the "x" factor, maybe its natural talent maybe you just need to be used to it.
As I just suggest you to relax and imagine that you are live and you are doing the same as in Youtube, keep up te good work.
(Btw for live events - check yours and painusers relaxation and acting and commetating when you did anti-spoiler videos for your tournament where you cheesed and painuser was teaching you - thats an atmosphere i would like to see in live events - at the moment it felt too formal)
And what goes to mistakes - well that didnt bother me - i think other casters made same amount of mistakes.
I just want to say, thanks very much for the comments and constructive criticism so far! Taylor and I are going to have a VERY THOROUGH look at everything and definitely try to improve and hone our craft that much more. Definitely seems like there is some back and forth with people on both sides of the fence.
I think you did okay, a lot of people will criticise you just because of who you are, similarly to Husky, for whatever reason. Your knowledge could be improved, but then again, everyone loves Tasteless yet he has no idea what's going on. But you seemed up to date on Stephano's playstyle and what he was going to do, when other American casters probably would have had no idea. I feel like all casters should get more knowledge of players from all scenes though, something that bugs me, especially the korean players. Most commentators have no idea how they play or what they've achieved, other than that they're Korean so they must be good. dApollo seems to be one of the few casters that does a lot of research on the players.
All in all, I had no problem listening in to your casts, but as always there's room for improvement
On October 11 2011 16:37 0neder wrote: One of the criticisms people keep reiterating here (calling things) backs up my beef that we don't want predictions, we just want hype and descriptions.
I don't know if your statement as said above is incorrect, but saying that we shouldn't have production bars and similar stuff used is just flat out stupid.
honest oppinion?? REALLY HONEST? ok first: Painuser rocks, he is a really good caster
second: you make him look like a worse caster because he has to either correct you all the time (mostly indirect) or he just gets pulled down by you and he adjusts to your level of commentating.
third: HONESTY? ok, sorry to say it that harsh but you still suck at every aspect (sorry its just my real honest oppinion, i dont want to personally offend you) . even as a play by play commentator your not doing well. i dont know where to start....the really bad gamesense, the overhyping of certain situations, etc etc
in my eyes high quality tournaments shouldnt hire caster amateurs like you. i know soo soo many people who actually stopped watching all the ipls because of you, no kiddin.
your a nice guy, but you should stop casting high quality content and mb take a break so you can start practicing casting again. or switch to smaller cups to get better. but i have this fear it wont help. you casted hundreds and hundreds of games already....really you are doing this for such a long time and still you are bad. this is kinda hopeless i guess.
and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: honest oppinion?? REALLY HONEST? ok first: Painuser rocks, he is a really good caster
second: you make him look like a worse caster because he has to either correct you all the time (mostly indirect) or he just gets pulled down by you and he adjusts to your level of commentating.
third: HONESTY? ok, sorry to say it that harsh but you still suck at every aspect (sorry its just my real honest oppinion, i dont want to personally offend you) . even as a play by play commentator your not doing well. i dont know where to start....the really bad gamesense, the overhyping of certain situations, etc etc
in my eyes high quality tournaments shouldnt hire caster amateurs like you.
your a nice guy, but you should stop casting high quality content and mb take a break so you can start practicing casting again. or switch to smaller cups to get better. but i have this fear it wont help. you casted hundreds and hundreds of games already....really you are doing this for such a long time and still you are bad. this is kinda hopeless i guess.
and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
Dude... You're like telling someone not to cry while rubbing onions in his face.
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: honest oppinion?? REALLY HONEST? ok first: Painuser rocks, he is a really good caster
second: you make him look like a worse caster because he has to either correct you all the time (mostly indirect) or he just gets pulled down by you and he adjusts to your level of commentating.
third: HONESTY? ok, sorry to say it that harsh but you still suck at every aspect (sorry its just my real honest oppinion, i dont want to personally offend you) . even as a play by play commentator your not doing well. i dont know where to start....the really bad gamesense, the overhyping of certain situations, etc etc
in my eyes high quality tournaments shouldnt hire caster amateurs like you. i know soo soo many people who actually stopped watching all the ipls because of you, no kiddin.
your a nice guy, but you should stop casting high quality content and mb take a break so you can start practicing casting again. or switch to smaller cups to get better. but i have this fear it wont help. you casted hundreds and hundreds of games already....really you are doing this for such a long time and still you are bad. this is kinda hopeless i guess.
and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
I completely disagree, and also it's completely retarded to say "bla bla don't take this harsh" etc. Dude, you're telling him that he fucking sucks at the thing he does for a living (?) and his greatest passion. How about you just f off.
Watching sc2 without analysis or production/unit tabs or predictions is just like watching chess without knowing anything about the game. Then it's just pieces of wood/whatever throwing each other off the board which is flat out boring. I don't want excitement if it's false and lies. I don't like crap like that. I want excitement and inspiration from a brilliant new way of playing or extremely smart decisions and responses to strategies.
EDIT: oh yeah on topic: I liked you both and especially painuser and his analysis. I don't think it's bad at all to have casters like HD if they have an analytical companion. Don't worry too much about not knowing everything about the game. If you are not sure about something, don't make a bad prediction, but maybe ask your partner do you think this could be a possibility.
I've really enjoyed your casting with PainUser. Been watching since the HDH beta tourny.
For me you're entertaining and know how to make me feel more exited while watching the game. I do wish you would cast with husky again one day though that would be cool.
Only thing I would pick at is over-reacting when something small happens. Like someone mentioned before, when something like 3 lings run in a base and you tend to hype it as being was more dangerous then it is. Other then that though you guys have been awesome.
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: honest oppinion?? REALLY HONEST? ok first: Painuser rocks, he is a really good caster
second: you make him look like a worse caster because he has to either correct you all the time (mostly indirect) or he just gets pulled down by you and he adjusts to your level of commentating.
third: HONESTY? ok, sorry to say it that harsh but you still suck at every aspect (sorry its just my real honest oppinion, i dont want to personally offend you) . even as a play by play commentator your not doing well. i dont know where to start....the really bad gamesense, the overhyping of certain situations, etc etc
in my eyes high quality tournaments shouldnt hire caster amateurs like you. i know soo soo many people who actually stopped watching all the ipls because of you, no kiddin.
your a nice guy, but you should stop casting high quality content and mb take a break so you can start practicing casting again. or switch to smaller cups to get better. but i have this fear it wont help. you casted hundreds and hundreds of games already....really you are doing this for such a long time and still you are bad. this is kinda hopeless i guess.
and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
I completely disagree, and also it's completely retarded to say "bla bla don't take this harsh" etc. Dude, you're telling him that he fucking sucks at the thing he does for a living (?) and his greatest passion. How about you just f off.
only because ur doing it for a living and its your passion, doesnt automatically mean you cant suck. and no i dont fuck off, if they cant stand honest harsh criticism they shouldnt open feedback threads.
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: honest oppinion?? REALLY HONEST? ok first: Painuser rocks, he is a really good caster
second: you make him look like a worse caster because he has to either correct you all the time (mostly indirect) or he just gets pulled down by you and he adjusts to your level of commentating.
third: HONESTY? ok, sorry to say it that harsh but you still suck at every aspect (sorry its just my real honest oppinion, i dont want to personally offend you) . even as a play by play commentator your not doing well. i dont know where to start....the really bad gamesense, the overhyping of certain situations, etc etc
in my eyes high quality tournaments shouldnt hire caster amateurs like you. i know soo soo many people who actually stopped watching all the ipls because of you, no kiddin.
your a nice guy, but you should stop casting high quality content and mb take a break so you can start practicing casting again. or switch to smaller cups to get better. but i have this fear it wont help. you casted hundreds and hundreds of games already....really you are doing this for such a long time and still you are bad. this is kinda hopeless i guess.
and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
I completely disagree, and also it's completely retarded to say "bla bla don't take this harsh" etc. Dude, you're telling him that he fucking sucks at the thing he does for a living (?) and his greatest passion. How about you just f off.
It's important that these people say what they think so HD gets even more motivated to improve his casting. This is exactly what he asked for because just saying that everything is fine etc is just not helping.
That it was a bit harsh...Yea, I agree with that. Some less "sucking" and more "doing bad" would make this post better. ^^
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I have not seen such a poll, but if that is the case, then those people were wrong. It is a fact that uncertainty breeds excitement. I do not watch SC2 games so I can get a better rank in my bronze league by copying stuff I see. I watch it to be entertained and excited.
I'd like to know how you get "entertained" or "excited" if you've already seen the match and you're watching it again.
How do you explain that when OGN broadcast WCG their amazing observer was unaware of the progress bars at first and left them off, and I watched the most exciting series of SC2 ever (for me) between MKP and Hero.
Your study proves nothing, and if you had any awareness of Korean Brood War, you would understand.
I actually prefer the production facility on, and sometimes switch to unit tab, It is a great way to know how the game can progress. You can analysis thing yourself when caster missed it.
So you expect "excitement" when something pop out of nowhere and you are "wow" like DT + stargate play? banshee, tech switch, suddenly appear? lol the caster will most certainly not miss that, and If they miss it, they are bad caster, and I feel like you only want to watch the battle micro and stuff, not how the game going and the decision making by player. Production tab is the most important thing when observing a game. OGN did not turn it on because they do not have experience with sc2, in sc1 there is no technology like that, and their cast is so good because they did not miss a single thing on the map.
I am simply stunned.
Yes, things suddenly appearing are exciting. Why wouldn't they be? Are you aware that top BW observers sometimes hide buildings, units, and do not reveal what is being researched DELIBERATELY in order to promote excitement and suspense?
On October 11 2011 16:36 minhbq299 wrote: I feel like you only want to watch the battle [...] Production tab is the most important thing when observing a game.
I give up. You're a lost cause. Knowing a player is safe or has no chance of winning has no appeal to me. Clearly you only watch pro games to steal builds and timings. Good luck enjoying the speadsheets and powerpoints of life.
And having it as a crutch for garbage poser commentators/observers will only expose the ones who should be kicked out and promote the best observers faster.
I'm also going to have to disagree.
With the production tab on, for example, when you see an army moving out, you can see upgrades finishing up just as they reach the base and appreciate the refinement of the build they are using. Also, if you notice the banked resources each player has, you can also see how fast each of them are rebuilding their army.
It's not a question of removing surprise and excitement. It's the difference between knowing the same information the players know as the players are making their decisions they choose to make.
I also don't understand "knowing a player is safe or has no chance of winning has no appeal" to me. If the players are playing a close game, you won't know if a player is safe or not no matter how much information you have--that's why they're close games.
Without the production tabs, with incomplete information, all you're doing is getting hyped over games that aren't close at all. I agree that it takes away from the games that are blow outs, but then again, you shouldn't be hyped about those games in the first place. (You're just letting yourself be fooled.)
It actually adds so much more to the games that are close and actually deserve your hype and excitement.
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: honest oppinion?? REALLY HONEST? ok first: Painuser rocks, he is a really good caster
second: you make him look like a worse caster because he has to either correct you all the time (mostly indirect) or he just gets pulled down by you and he adjusts to your level of commentating.
third: HONESTY? ok, sorry to say it that harsh but you still suck at every aspect (sorry its just my real honest oppinion, i dont want to personally offend you) . even as a play by play commentator your not doing well. i dont know where to start....the really bad gamesense, the overhyping of certain situations, etc etc
in my eyes high quality tournaments shouldnt hire caster amateurs like you. i know soo soo many people who actually stopped watching all the ipls because of you, no kiddin.
your a nice guy, but you should stop casting high quality content and mb take a break so you can start practicing casting again. or switch to smaller cups to get better. but i have this fear it wont help. you casted hundreds and hundreds of games already....really you are doing this for such a long time and still you are bad. this is kinda hopeless i guess.
and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
I completely disagree, and also it's completely retarded to say "bla bla don't take this harsh" etc. Dude, you're telling him that he fucking sucks at the thing he does for a living (?) and his greatest passion. How about you just f off.
It's important that these people say what they think so HD gets even more motivated to improve his casting. This is exactly what he asked for because just saying that everything is fine etc is just not helping.
That it was a bit harsh...Yea, I agree with that. Some less "sucking" and more "doing bad" would make this post better. ^^
thank you, thats the way feedback works... and mb i used "suck" too often, but thats just the way i think about it.
OK first thing, I am charmed by Painuser's casting, I really enjoy Painuser in general, it's hard to find fault for the moment, but I will need to say that the awkward jokes are just a little bit cringing to hear, though I do understand the need to fill time.
For some reason I really loved this exchange:
HD: "hey painuser, do you find that it's really cold in here..."
Painuser: "oh, I am not cold, but you know what, you can turn off that fan...(HD reaches over)...that's definitely a possibility."
That was really really funny to me for some reason.
If you really want to identify exactly what is irritating people HD, it's when a very particular moment happens, when you get really excited or when you're trying to play a situation up. Your voice reaches the apex of its pitch and at that second, it's hard on the ears for just that split moment. Not quite on the level of Moletrap "OHHH NNNOOOO" but it's there. It's not that bothersome really(to me). I believe some technical tweaks with the mic could probably solve that. But if you can master your voice just a tad, that would pretty much solve the issue.
I do agree with what people are saying, let Painuser be the analytical guy, who speaks about strats, reasons behind what the player is doing, and definitely defer to Painuser for oddball situations that don't quite make sense.
In terms of filling time, I would say to brief yourself a bit more on the player's background, their history, any items of interest that bring the viewer closer to the player. Emotional investment is a big thing for people, if they truly feel something for who they're rooting for.
Also try not to use too many abbreviations. We are casting for everyone, be it a complete newcomer to Starcraft 2, all the way to Grand master players. It's OK to use abbreviations, just explain them very quickly once, and the viewer will catch on, and you can continue. It is a good thing when the caster takes just a moment to explain something, and then carries on. Please don't address the audience as "noobs". I believe Wolf does it well when he says "for those of you who don't know...." it sounds friendly, not condescending and relays the information well.
But I have to give you guys credit for at least one thing. And that's keeping the profanity out. Reason I say this is because Tasteless is starting to let some adult-level language creep into his commentary. It bugs me, because GSL is supposed to be for all ages. He said the word "shit", "on the back of a hippo while it's having sex" or something completely terrible. Tasteless are you listening? Please don't do this.
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: honest oppinion?? REALLY HONEST? ok first: Painuser rocks, he is a really good caster
second: you make him look like a worse caster because he has to either correct you all the time (mostly indirect) or he just gets pulled down by you and he adjusts to your level of commentating.
third: HONESTY? ok, sorry to say it that harsh but you still suck at every aspect (sorry its just my real honest oppinion, i dont want to personally offend you) . even as a play by play commentator your not doing well. i dont know where to start....the really bad gamesense, the overhyping of certain situations, etc etc
in my eyes high quality tournaments shouldnt hire caster amateurs like you. i know soo soo many people who actually stopped watching all the ipls because of you, no kiddin.
your a nice guy, but you should stop casting high quality content and mb take a break so you can start practicing casting again. or switch to smaller cups to get better. but i have this fear it wont help. you casted hundreds and hundreds of games already....really you are doing this for such a long time and still you are bad. this is kinda hopeless i guess.
and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
You add zero constructive criticism on how HD could improve or why he is "bad". Basically you're just saying "YOU SUCK" and just using the "honesty" as an excuse to bash.
I don't understand why people continually say that HD's game knowledge is lacking. Isn't he like a high master's player? Also I haven't really seen anything wrong with has casting knowledge wise.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I have not seen such a poll, but if that is the case, then those people were wrong. It is a fact that uncertainty breeds excitement. I do not watch SC2 games so I can get a better rank in my bronze league by copying stuff I see. I watch it to be entertained and excited.
I'd like to know how you get "entertained" or "excited" if you've already seen the match and you're watching it again.
How do you explain that when OGN broadcast WCG their amazing observer was unaware of the progress bars at first and left them off, and I watched the most exciting series of SC2 ever (for me) between MKP and Hero.
Your study proves nothing, and if you had any awareness of Korean Brood War, you would understand.
I actually prefer the production facility on, and sometimes switch to unit tab, It is a great way to know how the game can progress. You can analysis thing yourself when caster missed it.
So you expect "excitement" when something pop out of nowhere and you are "wow" like DT + stargate play? banshee, tech switch, suddenly appear? lol the caster will most certainly not miss that, and If they miss it, they are bad caster, and I feel like you only want to watch the battle micro and stuff, not how the game going and the decision making by player. Production tab is the most important thing when observing a game. OGN did not turn it on because they do not have experience with sc2, in sc1 there is no technology like that, and their cast is so good because they did not miss a single thing on the map.
I am simply stunned.
Yes, things suddenly appearing are exciting. Why wouldn't they be? Are you aware that top BW observers sometimes hide buildings, units, and do not reveal what is being researched DELIBERATELY in order to promote excitement and suspense?
On October 11 2011 16:36 minhbq299 wrote: I feel like you only want to watch the battle [...] Production tab is the most important thing when observing a game.
I give up. You're a lost cause. Knowing a player is safe or has no chance of winning has no appeal to me. Clearly you only watch pro games to steal builds and timings. Good luck enjoying the speadsheets and powerpoints of life.
And having it as a crutch for garbage poser commentators/observers will only expose the ones who should be kicked out and promote the best observers faster.
I'm also going to have to disagree.
With the production tab on, for example, when you see an army moving out, you can see upgrades finishing up just as they reach the base and appreciate the refinement of the build they are using. Also, if you notice the banked resources each player has, you can also see how fast each of them are rebuilding their army.
It's not a question of removing surprise and excitement. It's the difference between knowing the same information the players know as the players are making their decisions they choose to make.
I also don't understand "knowing a player is safe or has no chance of winning has no appeal" to me. If the players are playing a close game, you won't know if a player is safe or not no matter how much information you have--that's why they're close games.
Without the production tabs, with incomplete information, all you're doing is getting hyped over games that aren't close at all. I agree that it takes away from the games that are blow outs, but then again, you shouldn't be hyped about those games in the first place. (You're just letting yourself be fooled.)
It actually adds so much more to the games that are close and actually deserve your hype and excitement.
To provide a counter example: Check vs Vampire in the GSTL finals. We see 2 stargate voids, assume check only prepares for 1 because he only scouts 1 and will be unprepared. Vampire masses up a bunch of gateway units to attack with his voids and assume that Check is gonna be totally screwed, and the camera scrolls up and we see 10 queens running down to meet the army.
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: honest oppinion?? REALLY HONEST? ok first: Painuser rocks, he is a really good caster
second: you make him look like a worse caster because he has to either correct you all the time (mostly indirect) or he just gets pulled down by you and he adjusts to your level of commentating.
third: HONESTY? ok, sorry to say it that harsh but you still suck at every aspect (sorry its just my real honest oppinion, i dont want to personally offend you) . even as a play by play commentator your not doing well. i dont know where to start....the really bad gamesense, the overhyping of certain situations, etc etc
in my eyes high quality tournaments shouldnt hire caster amateurs like you. i know soo soo many people who actually stopped watching all the ipls because of you, no kiddin.
your a nice guy, but you should stop casting high quality content and mb take a break so you can start practicing casting again. or switch to smaller cups to get better. but i have this fear it wont help. you casted hundreds and hundreds of games already....really you are doing this for such a long time and still you are bad. this is kinda hopeless i guess.
and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
You add zero constructive criticism on how HD could improve or why he is "bad". Basically you're just saying "YOU SUCK" and just using the "honesty" as an excuse to bash.
thats bullshit. i mentioned the game sense, the overhyping and how he pulls down painuser. and im not a caster myself so i have no idea how he could improve effectivly, if he wants to know that he should ask day9 or artosis and not simple TL users like us....
Overall I was fine with the casting in IPL. It wasn't MLG quality, but it was good. IF HD want's feedback, then this is what I would say. Watch streams, learn builds you wouldnt even normally use ( I mean some funky/normal builds of koreans). It really adds to your casting when you know the build the player is hammering down. I love how you stay enthutiastic (idk how to write that word lol), it's actually really hard to do. And I would want to give you props for that. Also, get to know the players your casting if you can. Research their playstyle, watch their replays, keep that professional tone in your voice and your good. One last thing. I don't know how long time you spend during a day to study the game and the players. If it's little, do it more. If it's a lot, then keep attention to what you are watching. I don't know if this helps at all, but since I like you, I figured I could try to help you out. You and PainUser have really good chemistry between you two, that's really what makes your casts good, keep it up!
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: honest oppinion?? REALLY HONEST? ok first: Painuser rocks, he is a really good caster
second: you make him look like a worse caster because he has to either correct you all the time (mostly indirect) or he just gets pulled down by you and he adjusts to your level of commentating.
third: HONESTY? ok, sorry to say it that harsh but you still suck at every aspect (sorry its just my real honest oppinion, i dont want to personally offend you) . even as a play by play commentator your not doing well. i dont know where to start....the really bad gamesense, the overhyping of certain situations, etc etc
in my eyes high quality tournaments shouldnt hire caster amateurs like you. i know soo soo many people who actually stopped watching all the ipls because of you, no kiddin.
your a nice guy, but you should stop casting high quality content and mb take a break so you can start practicing casting again. or switch to smaller cups to get better. but i have this fear it wont help. you casted hundreds and hundreds of games already....really you are doing this for such a long time and still you are bad. this is kinda hopeless i guess.
and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
I completely disagree, and also it's completely retarded to say "bla bla don't take this harsh" etc. Dude, you're telling him that he fucking sucks at the thing he does for a living (?) and his greatest passion. How about you just f off.
only because ur doing it for a living and its your passion, doesnt automatically mean you cant suck. and no i dont fuck off, if they cant stand honest harsh criticism they shouldnt open feedback threads.
Just because they ask for opinions does not mean that people need to act like little children. Grow up dude. Your posts are terrible and not helpful
TBH I feel like there are definitely times where the two of you disagree on things and it takes me out of the game a little bit, causing me to ponder both arguments, but i feel like that's a necessary aspect of any casting archon. The only issue I've had with this is (with the HD/Painuser combo) it sometimes feels like the disagreements seem a little too personal to both parties, and it can come across as a little bit condescending to one another. That aside, I feel like the analysis that the two of you have to offer is very valuable and in most cases completely valid.
Overall I thoroughly enjoyed the casts and the enthusiasm that you both exhibited in every game, and I hope that what was previously stated can be taken as constructive criticism rather than personal insult. Basically I want to say that i really enjoy the casts that you two provide and the negatives I've presented definitely (for me) do NOT out weigh the many positives.
Keep doing what you're doing, it's a beautiful thing for the E-sports community!
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: honest oppinion?? REALLY HONEST? ok first: Painuser rocks, he is a really good caster
second: you make him look like a worse caster because he has to either correct you all the time (mostly indirect) or he just gets pulled down by you and he adjusts to your level of commentating.
third: HONESTY? ok, sorry to say it that harsh but you still suck at every aspect (sorry its just my real honest oppinion, i dont want to personally offend you) . even as a play by play commentator your not doing well. i dont know where to start....the really bad gamesense, the overhyping of certain situations, etc etc
in my eyes high quality tournaments shouldnt hire caster amateurs like you. i know soo soo many people who actually stopped watching all the ipls because of you, no kiddin.
your a nice guy, but you should stop casting high quality content and mb take a break so you can start practicing casting again. or switch to smaller cups to get better. but i have this fear it wont help. you casted hundreds and hundreds of games already....really you are doing this for such a long time and still you are bad. this is kinda hopeless i guess.
and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
You add zero constructive criticism on how HD could improve or why he is "bad". Basically you're just saying "YOU SUCK" and just using the "honesty" as an excuse to bash.
thats bullshit. i mentioned the game sense, the overhyping and how he pulls down painuser. and im not a caster myself so i have no idea how he could improve effectivly, if he wants to know that he should ask day9 or artosis and not simple TL users like us....
WE ARE THE VIEWERS. We are the people he is providing content to. Asking us is perfectly logical.
Two professionals are asking for constructive feedback to improve their casting, and this is what you post?
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: in my eyes high quality tournaments shouldnt hire caster amateurs like you.
And you continue:
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: your a nice guy, but you should stop casting
And then a ninja edit that I somewhat doubt will help you
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
You are being a total dick here dude.. I would edit that post of yours out if I was you, think about it and then maybe write a new one, where you actually put words on what you think can be improved. If you can't do that, no reason to post at all.
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: honest oppinion?? REALLY HONEST? ok first: Painuser rocks, he is a really good caster
second: you make him look like a worse caster because he has to either correct you all the time (mostly indirect) or he just gets pulled down by you and he adjusts to your level of commentating.
third: HONESTY? ok, sorry to say it that harsh but you still suck at every aspect (sorry its just my real honest oppinion, i dont want to personally offend you) . even as a play by play commentator your not doing well. i dont know where to start....the really bad gamesense, the overhyping of certain situations, etc etc
in my eyes high quality tournaments shouldnt hire caster amateurs like you. i know soo soo many people who actually stopped watching all the ipls because of you, no kiddin.
your a nice guy, but you should stop casting high quality content and mb take a break so you can start practicing casting again. or switch to smaller cups to get better. but i have this fear it wont help. you casted hundreds and hundreds of games already....really you are doing this for such a long time and still you are bad. this is kinda hopeless i guess.
and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
You add zero constructive criticism on how HD could improve or why he is "bad". Basically you're just saying "YOU SUCK" and just using the "honesty" as an excuse to bash.
thats bullshit. i mentioned the game sense, the overhyping and how he pulls down painuser. and im not a caster myself so i have no idea how he could improve effectivly, if he wants to know that he should ask day9 or artosis and not simple TL users like us....
WE ARE THE VIEWERS. We are the people he is providing content to. Asking us is perfectly logical.
you dont get it...i meant EFFECTIVE ways to improve SPECIFIC things. so do you know how to professionally improve casting skills? DO YOU? no, just like all the other none casters. there is a different thing between simple feedback, which he can ofc ask us, and professional tips! ....mb you should just keep quiet, you dont know what you are writing here
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
You are being a total dick here dude.. I would edit that post of yours out if I was you, think about it and then maybe write a new one, where you actually put words on what you think can be improved. If you can't do that, no reason to post at all.
honest oppinion?? REALLY HONEST? ok first: Painuser rocks, he is a really good caster
second: you make him look like a worse caster because he has to either correct you all the time (mostly indirect) or he just gets pulled down by you and he adjusts to your level of commentating.
third: HONESTY? ok, sorry to say it that harsh but you still suck at every aspect (sorry its just my real honest oppinion, i dont want to personally offend you) . even as a play by play commentator your not doing well. i dont know where to start....the really bad gamesense, the overhyping of certain situations, etc etc
He posted this as well. His second point is really well said..It is how you don't expect a blind man to be a good painter. Same could be said about some people trying to be casters.
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
and a nice lie, i edited a toital different sentence....stop talking shit kiddo
Funny enough, I watch IPL on a regular basis and your commentary never bothered me, but in the finals I didn't like it. The observer missed quite some stuff and was slow, there was a lot of mistakes and both of you didn't seem to understand the ZvZ matchup very well. And as some people said HD should stick to more play by play commentary and leave the analysis to Painuser, at least with what I've seen so far.
I think Apollo, Painuser and djWheat were great during the whole event. I cant really say that Im a fan of HD or Doa and his casting partner. Mainly because of their lacking knowledge. Doa has some knowledge I suppose but I really dont like his casting/jokes.
Also, I would have wished they were a bit more focused on the camera when they observed. There were tons of drops and engagements that we didnt get to see.
On October 11 2011 16:58 gwaihir wrote: honest oppinion?? REALLY HONEST? ok first: Painuser rocks, he is a really good caster
second: you make him look like a worse caster because he has to either correct you all the time (mostly indirect) or he just gets pulled down by you and he adjusts to your level of commentating.
third: HONESTY? ok, sorry to say it that harsh but you still suck at every aspect (sorry its just my real honest oppinion, i dont want to personally offend you) . even as a play by play commentator your not doing well. i dont know where to start....the really bad gamesense, the overhyping of certain situations, etc etc
in my eyes high quality tournaments shouldnt hire caster amateurs like you. i know soo soo many people who actually stopped watching all the ipls because of you, no kiddin.
your a nice guy, but you should stop casting high quality content and mb take a break so you can start practicing casting again. or switch to smaller cups to get better. but i have this fear it wont help. you casted hundreds and hundreds of games already....really you are doing this for such a long time and still you are bad. this is kinda hopeless i guess.
and again, its an honest oppinion by me and i hope you and the mods here wont take this as stupid bashin and ban/warn me for my harsh criticism.
You add zero constructive criticism on how HD could improve or why he is "bad". Basically you're just saying "YOU SUCK" and just using the "honesty" as an excuse to bash.
thats bullshit. i mentioned the game sense, the overhyping and how he pulls down painuser. and im not a caster myself so i have no idea how he could improve effectivly, if he wants to know that he should ask day9 or artosis and not simple TL users like us....
WE ARE THE VIEWERS. We are the people he is providing content to. Asking us is perfectly logical.
you dont get it...i meant EFFECTIVE ways to improve SPECIFIC things. so do you know how to professionally improve casting skills? DO YOU? no, just like all the other none casters. there is a different thing between simple feedback, which he can ofc ask us, and professional tips! ....mb you should just keep quiet, you dont know what you are writing here
So if a baseball player talks to a sports psychologist about how to improve certain aspects of his game that wont work? If an NFL caster asks people watching his showwhat they did not like and what he might want to improve on that would not work? Honestly. You are the daily internet child troll. You should stop posting and edit out as he said. Or maybe learn how to function in a society.
- I always feel your personalities simply don't match-up with mine, which is not even casting related, so I often avoid listening to you guys (IPL qualifiers) and there is nothing you (or me) could do about it. - Given above, you guys did a very good job, because during this event I actually did not mind listening to you. - HD has cut out a lot of your unneccessary fake enthusiasm, which is very good. A portion of this is always necessary and as long as you don't go overboard with exaggerations, it is very ok. - The analysis was not always spot on, but it is nothing I actually expect to happen, the game is to complicated for that. Still I think PainUser could have done a better job sometimes. In example, I felt sometimes when a terran player was really behind and pulled of 3-4 decent drops in a row, you made it sound like he was picking his opponent apart for like 5minutes, although the drops did not nearly do enough dmg to make the game even again. - The observing was ok I guess, but not good either. - And I really don't dig these kind of conversations: 'As a caster I have mastered the craft of half listening, what about you PU'- Yeah, I often barely hear what you are talking about'... Just cut it out, I don't want to hear that.
Community has allready choosed their favorite casters, so I think you HD get the most "bashing" atm. Pretty much only GSL observers are the only ones that dont miss stuff or rarely do.
I liked your cast, but as some ppl have pointed out it, I too think you should leave most of the analysis to PainUser and stick with play by play. The more you know about the game the better ofc, but you got the point.
To provide a counter example: Check vs Vampire in the GSTL finals. We see 2 stargate voids, assume check only prepares for 1 because he only scouts 1 and will be unprepared. Vampire masses up a bunch of gateway units to attack with his voids and assume that Check is gonna be totally screwed, and the camera scrolls up and we see 10 queens running down to meet the army.
That was pretty fucking awesome.
Awesome game but bad on the casters part. We should have seen those things coming even just by the occasional "macro glance" the observers take of each player's base, we would have seen the queens massing up. the production tab is so that when the casters FAIL and MISS THINGS, as all humans are prone to do, we the audience can still be aware. Honestly I watch the production tab, minerals gas supply, and minimap, more that I do the action in the middle. I'm a fan of quality strategy games, not flashy cartoon action, and I like understanding the situation.
This whole "deny me information so I can enjoy the game more" is the worst idea ever and has nothing to do with why HD just isnt right for high level casting.
You guys are probably my favorite casting pair. I love watching the huge amount of IGN content because you don't tone down the nerdiness. A lot of other casters don't seem like they are trying to target an audience that isn't me, which is surprising, since I played BW and have been around for a long time. I like the air that HD and Painuser have because it's like listening to two people who I know talking about SC (I especially like the plethora of 90s references and other things relevant to nerd culture) whereas some other commentators like JP seem to be living in a completely different world from me.
I liked PU. Dont have much complaints there. I didnt enjoy HDs casting. You made a number of mistakes, some big ones and and some small ones.
I feel like the quote "think before you speak" applies when you try to analyze the game, because I think you have the knowledge (especially after watching and casting all those games) and a good idea whats going to happen but you its almost as if you rush out your statement - leading to something incorrect.
I also think its a problem when HD tries to play the entertainer role rather than a play-by-play guy. I think leaving the color commentary to PU would be better, at least for my taste.
I will say that my criticisms come from a small sample size, I muted stream when you guys came on after a few games in.
PainUser was great I didn't feel the T bias that much like some posts above. I like when there is a root knowledge (like terran for him), it is how a lot of players get "connected" to the game aswell (cheering for one race).
HD was not that bad but you need to be yourself... just be natural dont try to overplay the thing, it looks so awkward. I'm feeling that PainUser is saving empty-awkward afterjokes or whatever Maybe in short you need confidence.
I admire the intentions of both HD and painuser. But when you look at professional casting as a whole, I think they have a long, LONG way to go in terms of their mastery of the english language, knowledge of the game, and confidence (not being awkward) in a live setting. Its quite glaring.
edit- I don't want to get called out as a hater, I really like what HD has done on youtube and such. But I think we are at a point where we can be very honest about the difference between any guy who picks up a game and a mic and starts talking about it and a professional commentator.
I did enjoy your casting in general, but there was just something off at the same time, which prevented me from enjoying it as much. There were only 2 things I can put my finger on: 1. Please stop calling it m&m, call it bio pretty please. 2. You guys missed a lot of action, heck since you were obsings, the viewer also missed a ton of them. I was at times frantically looking at the minimap to try determine who was winning all those battles that went unnoticed.
What I do love is your chemistry together, it really does shine through that you guys are comfortable with each other, so that's a good thing.
Edit: And please ignore "turn off the production/unit tab". I want to see the subtle ways a person is drilling through their opponents defenses, forcing wrong units, bad engagements etc, not just a last minute "SURPRISE I've got this army you have no counter to!"
1. The observer needs to pay more close attention to the minimap. It's not unique to you guys, but watching the right thing is more important than saying something interesting to me. Often drops are missed, armies move out and start engaging before the observer spot it because they are busy talking. That's the #1 criticism I can give you.
2. Refer a bit more often to actual supplies and workers, unit composition vs unit composition and upgrades. I feel that often you are misreading who is behind or ahead because of some small drop that worked, or was averted, while the supply leads and upgrades and # of bases tell the opposite story.
Overall, I feel you did a good job, but not a great job. But those are the two main issues you would have two work on for me to enjoy it more.
I didnt pay too much attention but i thought HD:s casting was just fine. If i recall correctly HD:s casting way back was too forced and that he should have been more relaxed/laid back. I think he has gotten better in this aspect.
All in all i really enjoyed the casting duo, good synergy.
You guys were really good at repping the sponsors well. While it was on a time-schedule, it didn't feel terribly forced like it does most of the time. That was actually a nice change from too many other types of non-Starcraft casting.
I don't understand alot of the hate that seems to come HD's way (Husky used to get it as well until his MLG commentary with Day9). During the finals people were actually saying they preferred to retune into Day9's stream where one of his friends was talking to him about something that was nothing to do with SC2, with perhaps Day9 saying one word every 5minutes - while claiming this was better commentary of the finals...
Is there anything other than e-sports/starcraft 2 that has such rampant fanboyism for commentators? It's really ridiculous.
People calling HD out for making mistakes - this happens all the time in GSL with Tastosis! How many times have we seen Artosis correct Tasteless with a friendly "I don't know about that Tasteless..." then he goes on to correct him.
Anyway, my own advice has probably been said already in this thread. The chemistry between you both seemed good. Don't be afraid to call something wrong, just have the co-commentator ready to pickup and correct you quickly if you are wrong (in a nice way). More important to get it right first time in the battles when the action heats up, so maybe focus more on what is happening in the battles, rather than trying to predict them too early.
Trying to predict builds (e.g. protoss just put down a twilight council) and explain that to the audience is a good thing to do as this happens slowly over time, just make sure you correct yourselves if you call it wrong.
Maybe have HD focus more on the color commentary, with PainUser jumping in to give the analysis or insights into strategies possibly in play.
Overall this is all just nitpicking, I don't expect perfection from any commentary, it's more just there to make the games more interesting for the general spectator.
Please make sure to have a dedicated independent observer. I know this wasn't your choice but casters being forced to observe and continually speak at the same time.. leads to mistakes somewhere.
Yah... every single caster I have watched gets such pure hate from a select few for awhile and then it changes... sc2 people should stop with the hate.
Hey why don't you do some research about the players beforehand? Few casters are doing that and I am sure everybody would welcome a little inside knowledge on the players if possible. Also, please don't force jokes and stop over-hyping thing like "he is about to throw away the biggest lead in the history of starcraft!!!" Just be a play by play caster and take on the role of tasteless in tartosis. Leave all that predicting build and analysis to Painuser for now.
On October 11 2011 17:52 Honner wrote: I don't understand alot of the hate that seems to come HD's way (Husky used to get it as well until his MLG commentary with Day9).
On October 11 2011 17:52 Honner wrote: I don't understand alot of the hate that seems to come HD's way (Husky used to get it as well until he got better).
if you look at a lot of his old solo stuff and his initial live casts, hes not as good. He's also been around the scene longer so this makes sense
I feel like both of you are trying to tell me exactly whats in the screen way too much instead of one of you being the caster and the other doing commentary.
- HD should do play by play and control the camera just based on the energy he can provide. Painuser should analize being a more experienced player giving the viewers insights of whats going on. When there's action going on PU needs to look around for other stuff and keep his own production tab open. - If several things are going on at once the viewers don't need a description of what's in front of their face. Keep simple and fast so PU can talk about whats going on at that expo getting attacked or drop in the main etc without the camera necesarily having to go there. - Alternate a lot more between production and unit tabs. It even helps as a caster when there's not much going to get a measure of army sizes relative to supply.
Painuser is great, HD not so much. He talks out of his ass alot, calls things that are simply not true and gets excited way too fast. Like that one game in IPL, can't exactly remember which one, but a player came back from a small disadvantage and HD called it "the biggest comeback in sc2 history" that's just pathetic and WRONG. things like that do in fact matter and are, in fact, very annoying.
Like you said, the biggest problem is the lack of knowledge. Especially in tournaments that feature top of the line Koreans, you really should be up to date on current builds they use. Take Puma - Hero game 3, for example: Puma was doing his usual 1-1-1 and once he built a raven, you guys called it an "interesting decision" and were all suprised, when almost everyone knows how crucial Ravens with PDD's are in said build. This actually made me punch a wall. Hope you really work on the knowledge part, like you said, so you wont make as many wrong calls. Apart from that your casting is OK.
As for Painuser, I hope he could just take his terran hat off while casting.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I absolutely hate it when it is turned off! where is the fun in that? one of the main reasons i watch pro matches are to learn builds, not wait in suspense for a hidden DT shrine
I really enjoy Painusers casting/jokes etc. He provides good insight into the game and I think generally calls what is going on correctly.
HD, with you casting I find it very hard to enjoy the cast. You consistently call battles and strategies wrong. Also I feel you over hype the smallest things, while making wild statements that turn out wrong so often I find it painful to listen.
Hopefully you can increase your knowledge of the game and maybe slow down on the hyperbole and I think you could become quality caster. Your love for the game is obvious and I wish you the best in the future.
I found Painuser's analysis and subsequent casting thereof very good, equal to Day9 and Artosis. Even though I'm not very picky about the casters I listen to, and my game knowledge is average at best, I did find it slightly irritating that HD misread completely some ingame actions. HD's casting skills are very good though, and overall I enjoyed the games.
HD, with you casting I find it very hard to enjoy the cast. You consistently call battles and strategies wrong. Also I feel you over hype the smallest things, while making wild statements that turn out wrong so often I find it painful to listen.
This is so true, on top of that I have the feeling when your casting a ton of stuff is just bluntly missed or reacted to very slowly, Taylor is a good caster but I hope they find him another partner.
Usually I absolutely can't stand Pain User for his huge terran bias but in the games I saw he actually toned it down a bit and it was bearable. I hope he can keep this up in future.
Also both of you have been guilty of protoss bashing on occasions. I know neither of you are protoss players but it would be cool if you can try and be a bit more fair especially considering the hard time toss fans are going through recently.
Edit- BTW, I can't remember who said it first, but Liquid Hero is absolutely not a 'passive player' who 'only sits in his base until he has a 200/200 death ball'. He's usually pretty much the complete opposite of this (very active with harass) and I felt like this was one of the stupidest comments I ever heard from a caster.
pro: - nice chemistry - energetic casting - funny moments - painusers moments where he has good strategic analysis
con: - drifting too often off topic - inappropriate things that just slip your mouth - trying to find most original and underused words for basic things. This might be fun for you, but it is really annoying for the viewer and hard to listen to (especially to non-native speakers). Don't say "the protoss brethren from Aiur" or similar things, stick with "protoss" or the name of the player. Makes it much easier to follow also your extravagant explanations/descriptions take a heck of a lot time where you are cought in the beauty of your own words and seem to forget the game. Keeping it shorter might help on that. - improve your camera work. If i can see 2 huge clumps of units on the map colliding while you are in the protoss base counting gateways and get to the fight too late, it's a shame. Same goes for drops etc. I accept that you can't do both talking something intelligent and watching the game perfect, however it is a duo cast, so i still expect at least one of you to pick up all the action - don't call the fight if you don't know who wins it. When HD calls who wins this fight (and describes it in extravagant language), i already expect the other side to win. Sorry, but get a basic understanding of how many units beat how many considering the upgrades etc. If you can't figure it out, select at least all units from one side beforehand. If they all vaporize (watch the unit selection screen), that side lost. Unfortunately, it is not always Marines>Zerglings, spread sieged Tanks > Ultra ling infestor, it always depends on the numbers, positioning etc. - Try to get a feeling for how much units are worth. I was crying zerg tears when drops came in and the zerg lost 3 mutalisks + zerglings/drones to clean it up, that made it at least 500/300 lost ressources for zerg, whereas terran lost only a medivac and 8 marines. It is a nice cleanup if you don't lose a mutalisk, if you lose one it's depending on how many drones/zerglings were killed. If you lose 2+ mutalisks, you lost already way more than terran. Mutalisks aren't cheap at all. - The production tab is often times more helpful in terms of what build someone is going for. If he spreads his Stargates over his base, it might not be easy to identify it as a double Stargate, however the production tab will tell you what it is. - Do not be afraid to correct yourself as soon as you see you are wrong. It is better to immediately stop on your genius explanation why 3 gate is better than 4 gate on that map the moment there is a 4th gate getting warped in. If that happens more than once in a while, maybe you need to update your strategic database
There are a few things that I could nit pick at but overall the cast was ok. I think HD gets way to excited over nothing sometimes and missed some critical information on the game or just completely made the wrong call about what was going to happen. You game sense is way off I feel.
PainUser did a great job in my mind, being a top player like he is sure helps him be on the ball and he is cool under pressure I really liked what he did.
And honestly. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND ESPORTS, stop calling BANELINGS - BLINGS. It is incredibly stupid, makes no sense and is not funny. Makes the scene look bad. I am not alone in this, even R1CH tweeted about it. It is the one thing that made me want to stab myself during your casts. I could feel it distracting you from the main action because you had to actively think about calling them blings. Just stop, please.
Hope you guys get better as I had fun watching you. There were some cringe worthy moments tho !
On October 11 2011 15:04 aquanda wrote: You're awesome HD. Almost no caster has a perfect knowledge of the game, but as long as you keep working at it I have no doubt you'll continue to improve. The synergy between you and Taylor has always been great (watched a ton of the IPL stream throughout the season). I would suggest just asking more questions of some of the high level players you know in order to see what's 'in' with the meta game and potential builds/counters you might see.
You guy's have great synergy and your friendship and vibe just shows through, that IMO trumps technicality/knowledge as long as you have enough of it.. You're both doing a wonderful job, now don't get me wrong you have a lot to improve on, and DjWheat and Apollo are a step ahead of the casting game right now(you should really just take notes on the little things these guys do, there timings with there energy and how they connect well off one another), but I don't think you guys should worry about the flak you get from most of the haters; you can't please em all and it isn't worth to bother trying or worrying too much about it. Keep up the good work.
I feel like PainUser does know the game well because he used to be quite a high level player in the earlier days of sc2, which contributes to his analysis.
however to me he sounds too monotone when he casts, not enough emotion or enthusiam, and almost sounds pecimistic at times.
HD on the other hand is not or was not ever a high level player himself, which hinders his analysis, which is fine if u have someone next to u to do the analysis (painuser) while u urself do the play by play and just announce the action in the game and make it exciting
but unfortunately i feel that HD fails at doing even that, i find him hard to listen to, he tries to analyse, and makes the incorrect call, and when he tries to shoutcast he trips over himself, fumbles his words, and sounds awkward.
i also am not a fan of his analogies and descriptions when he casts games.
any other critical feedback i have of them is just personal dislike tho, as at the end of the day their casting is just simply, still not my cup of tea
so i will stop here and just leave u with the constructive critiscm, i hope this thread helps u both to reflect on your strengths and weaknesses, and helps u improve yourselves in your career.
On October 11 2011 18:12 RuN wrote: There are a few things that I could nit pick at but overall the cast was ok. I think HD gets way to excited over nothing sometimes and missed some critical information on the game
I think this has some merit, and is part of the learning process, you preemptively get excited, and it's a wonderful thing, but too much of it, when nothing ends up really happening is one of your main weak-points. That just comes with time and learning the game and differently players play-style and timings. GL
To be honest, yes, you might be the weaker caster of the two of you, but I don't think you're a bad caster at all. Yes, you might lack game knowledge, but together the two of you make the greatest (in my opinion) caster duo. I'd rather listen to you two than Tastosis.
Even if Painuser has some bias, that's completely alright. I don't really mind, and I don't think it makes a bad impact in the casting. You two just have a great chemistry, and you cast a game really well and in an enjoyable fashion. Also you don't seem to be forcing jokes like soooo many others do (sorry Cats, but you do this a lot). That's the death of casting, if you ask me, when the caster try to force a joke into the picture, or really try and fail to be funny. Just let it flow.
Overall I like you guys. I definitely prefer PainUser but I still have a positive opinion of you (HD). There is, however, definitely a lot of room for growth. I'd like to see you maybe tone down the hyping up and just go with a bit more honesty - right now I sometimes feel that you are convincing yourself that you have to act really excited when you're actually not.
I don't think a lot of people realize HD is high masters and actually does provide good tips a lot. HD's voice is really good, and a lot of people criticize him for being "fake" but uhm... I dont think he would purse a career in SC2 Casting if he didn't genuinely enjoy it... I like HD and PainUser as a casting Duo
i didnt like it at all! ruined my experience of the finals! You guys read situations wrong! You miss things on the minimap! It feels like both of you just makes things up that "kind off/maybe" makes SOME sense and just throws it out there! I cant feel passion at all, as I said, it sounds like you guys just say what ever from the top of your head.. Painuser pretends that everything he says is the absolute right thing(feels like he tries to be the Artosis/Day9/dApollo of a casting archon) But he is failing big time, when he predicts a match wrong, or says someone is behind when doing "this and that" but the numbers themselfs tell us he is infact a head(worker count/number of production facilitys/number og expos... etc..etc...) Also there is a biased-ish feel when painuser cast an EG player. And sounds like he wants EG to lose. But that might just be me. As for HD, I'm sorry dude I know you are playing and trying to improve and stuff. But when you cast most of the time to do this so called "play-by-play" which is nice(personally prefere other though), but when you predict things or pointing out things, you say the most obviouse, you say something totaly wrong, or you start saying something that dont make sense at all and sometimes you turn it around and make a point out of it.
I'm sorry man, I muted every match you guys commentated and will continue to do that in the future.. The passion and knowledge for the game is so important for me when I'm watching, and it's not there, at ALL, when you guys work.. -__- Hopefully my honesty doesnt cost me a ban here..
So to make it short, the more I understand the game the less I enjoy your castings HD... If not laderring, you should at least watch some others casters regularly in order to instantly catch what's happening on the screen. I mean, you can see all that's going on on the screen and even, with a little practice you should be able to do so, and if you want to make money this way it's one of those things to do. After this, if you can exaggerate a little bit less, you may become my favorite caster again, you have a good way of "making the game alive". Painuser could give you lessons, but, as unfair as it is, I don't like his voice so I can't appreciate his casting. That being said, the third guy is quite good ! I hope he keeps going
On October 11 2011 18:24 Mr.SoloDolo wrote: I don't think a lot of people realize HD is high masters and actually does provide good tips a lot. HD's voice is really good, and a lot of people criticize him for being "fake" but uhm... I dont think he would purse a career in SC2 Casting if he didn't genuinely enjoy it... I like HD and PainUser as a casting Duo
I feel like he actually does enjoy it, but he feels that he HAS to "fake" a bit. It comes across.
I was hoping to see some new casting combos: HD + Djwheat PainUser + dApollo Doa + HD etc
You can learn a lot just watching them cast but i think you will learn more casting with them, plus you get more experience if one day you cast with someone that you dont know too much.
On October 11 2011 18:25 blae000 wrote: i didnt like it at all! ruined my experience of the finals! You guys read situations wrong! You miss things on the minimap! It feels like both of you just makes things up that "kind off/maybe" makes SOME sense and just throws it out there! I cant feel passion at all, as I said, it sounds like you guys just say what ever from the top of your head.. Painuser pretends that everything he says is the absolute right thing(feels like he tries to be the Artosis/Day9/dApollo of a casting archon) But he is failing big time, when he predicts a match wrong, or says someone is behind when doing "this and that" but the numbers themselfs tell us he is infact a head(worker count/number of production facilitys/number og expos... etc..etc...) Also there is a biased-ish feel when painuser cast an EG player. And sounds like he wants EG to lose. But that might just be me. As for HD, I'm sorry dude I know you are playing and trying to improve and stuff. But when you cast most of the time to do this so called "play-by-play" which is nice(personally prefere other though), but when you predict things or pointing out things, you say the most obviouse, you say something totaly wrong, or you start saying something that dont make sense at all and sometimes you turn it around and make a point out of it.
I'm sorry man, I muted every match you guys commentated and will continue to do that in the future.. The passion and knowledge for the game is so important for me when I'm watching, and it's not there, at ALL, when you guys work.. -__- Hopefully my honesty doesnt cost me a ban here..
See, this is a perfect example of someone who is a hater, someone who will mute you from now on and never give you a chance to improve is not someone you care to please in the first place.
You have to face the fact that some guy's just won't like you and move on.
HD, please talk to your fellow co caster after a casting session and ask them face to face man to man: "was my casting accurate?"
You have a big heart bro, and your zergy senses are usually spot on but sometimes you give HDgasms that have a lot of energy but not enough factual information.
Wow, what a ballsy thread haha, my apologies for all the haters.
HD and PainUser at IPL3 were the most knowledgeable and synergistic of the casting pairs. You guys have a very strong combination, both of you have good radio voices, great crowd interaction. Great pairing. I think a lot of the viewers don't realize that HD does a lot of setting up for PainUser, much the same way that Tasteless spends most of his time setting up Artosis - even though Tasteless actually knows exactly what's going on.
That's not to say that you guys couldn't use a bit of practice; play more and study your off-races. Getting your calls wrong isn't a big deal - if you can predict what White-Ra is going to do from one game to the next, then you're a better man than I. Its better to understand the dynamics of the common battles, which you guys do very well.
Another thing I think you guys could improve on your voice inflection for exciting moments, and that when you're replay casting it feels like you're not that into a few of the games.
But yeah, when I look at the other major casting pairs, you guys impress me a lot more than Apollo and TB, definitely more than Wheat + randomcaster usually does (<3 wheat and Day9 though), Gretorp and Lz don't compare. You guys are top 3 casting pairs right now - don't stress about the haters, find a few gems of insight in this thread and keep on truckin'.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I absolutely hate it when it is turned off! where is the fun in that? one of the main reasons i watch pro matches are to learn builds, not wait in suspense for a hidden DT shrine
i absolutely HATE the production tab
so many games get totally boring because you already know he will for example have his observer in time for the dt.
production tab takes alot of the joy of watching starcraft
I don't know why everyone is so concerned about "game knowledge" - obviously Hd is a genuinely nice person and has a passion for Sc2. Its not like you can't figure out whats going on by watching the game on stream.
Good job, I would say there are few things to work out, especially with HD going too much off topic in a pretty important part of the game, when I would like to know the units build, army sizes, etc...
I would also say you need to put up the pop up screen more, with workers kills and units kills, apm, etc... just overall more of the stats.
In my opinion HD is a good caster, he may not have the best of game sense at every turn but he is genuinly excited about the game and really seems to care, which shines through.
Painuser doesn't feel like he cares about casting. I'm not even sure if he has casted anything where he wasn't getting payed or getting other benefits. He has decent sense for the game (but less so than you'd expect from a player of his level) yet has pretty much no excitement what-so-ever. Feels like he is doing it just as a job rather than because he loves casting and as such, the monotonous robot voice pours over the rest of the cast. HD would be better off getting paired with someone who has great indepth knowledge or excitement for the game, or both (but that only leaves the superb Day9).
And yeah, stop being biased towards the American players
I think a caster requires some level of knowledge and personality. I can think of a few casters out there that know a lot but are boring or know little but are very entertaining to listen to. There are few if any (<3 dayj) that have a lot of both.
As a casting-duo I believe that its important the two casters can supplement the others deficits. Mismatched is better than Matched in this regard. Two people deeply analyzing a match is both redundant and dull. Two people giggling back and forth making jokes and obscure references unrelated to the game is annoying.
Id say the HD and Painuser compliment one another very well, neither is too annoying or indepth but together provide some very entertaining coverage games. Ultimately its entertainment and enjoyment, not 'Starcraft 2 Education' that is important when casting a tournament.
I voted yes! and hope to see more
PS. Painuser is fairly biased, but I like biased casting
I like PainUser as a caster, obviously his knowledge is top notch. TBH, you made me mute the stream at one point and I was never really able to enjoy the games as I would've with any other caster.
Maybe it's just me but I find your humor really unfunny.
In my opinion you shouldnt try to hype up games that are allready pretty much decided. Especially you are doing this a so often. That being said thats what most Casters actually do besides from Tastosis/Wolf/d.Apollo and its quite annoying tbh.
What the hell is wrong with people? The casting was perfectly fine! How is it only 54% yes? People are really spoiled. Would all the people that said "No" rather have no casting at all?
On October 11 2011 20:10 TheCreature wrote: What the hell is wrong with people? The casting was perfectly fine! How is it only 54% yes? People are really spoiled. Would all the people that said "No" rather have no casting at all?
What is the Poll for then? I'm pretty sure if there would have been an option 'I'd rather have no casting at all' added to the other two options only some Trolls would choose it. He was asking for feedback and we provided.
Probably repeating what most of the people in this thread said. Painuser is perfectly fine. You on the other hand suffer from the same problem Husky suffered in the past, but he got over it and improved a lot, really. So it would not hurt to focus on improving your game knowledge and awareness of the things going on while casting. Maybe also work on some jokes and there have been a lot of situations, where the what we saw in the games were different from what you told us.
I'm sure you can do it, just like husky, who is not that bad anymore.
I personally loved to see u guys Cast because i kinda got used to the HDPain combo, when i watch IPL i expect to see u guys and i kinda consider u "e-friends" for being there all the time and bring me alot of great moments
Pain ofc he performed well because he is one of the Pro players even if he didn't have "nestea results". Being in the pro field means that u have a good sense of the game.
@HD ..altho alot of ppl can complain the lack of knowledge i can only say congrats on stepping up your game. I saw u 2 cast since the begining of IPL, and i have seen u progress and i love it because i kinda see in u myself..how i progressed in time and never gave up trying my best to get as much out of this game as i can. Is there room for improvement? Ofc it is....this game requires constant improvement not just for the players but for casters as well.
My personal opinion is just stick with the flow, listen to Pain's advice and even just listen to him in general, and i am 100% sure u will progress even more.
Again....it's always a pleasure listening to u guys, u guys are awesome!
I think HD have calmed down alot with his talk, which is something alot of people can learn from.
You tended to over-do the play-by-play commentary, but it has gotten alot better. Painuser is to me, the best type of casters. CHill laid back, semi-stoned pro player that just lays down the knowledge carpet(woah?!) over a match, really simple and straight forward.
Compared to apollo and catspyjamas for instance, your cast is alot more laid back and less try-hard imo. Gets really tiring listening to cats and apollo talking about all kinds of little things going on till they`re blue in their face and screaming at pretty much anything that moves.
Looking forward to seeing you and painuser cast alot of events in the future!
I think you did fine, and have definetely improved the last couple of months. Sometimes when you start analyzing high-level stuff HD, you end up with the wrong conclusion or whatever a bit too often I think. Perhaps just try to zone in the fact that you are a play-by-play caster and PainUser is the analysist. Not at all saying you shouldn't analyze at all, but make sure what you're saying is at least 90% true
Oh and PainUser needs to reduce his amount of "I mean" by about 80%.
First of all, I've enjoyed IPL tremendously, and congratz to you and the whole IPL crew in making it happen.
Secondly,both you (HD) and Painuser need to be more aware of your limitations. Not having perfect game knowledge doesn't have to be a problem, it becomes a problem only when you make predictions and are constantly proven wrong. More knowledge can't hurt, but no caster is able to perfectly predict all games, so don't even try to. And get a dedicated observer for big tournaments.
It was fine, but not my favorite of the tournament (I liked Cats/Doa quite a lot which was unexpected). Anyway, I'd say the biggest constructive criticism I could give is to stay up on the meta game a bit more HD. It seems like since you've been playing less and working at IGN your knowledge of the game has stagnated a bit and isn't quite up with the times, I assume because you aren't on the ladder as often seeing new builds, and sometimes your calls seem a little outdated. E.g. - "Wow, this is really a strange opening here from X" when in fact its been a really standard opening over the last few weeks/month.
Anyway, no major concerns that would stop me from watching, but there is always room for improvement.
I kinda liked the casting, enjoyed online qualifier as well but ffs stop saying: "I couldn't agree with you more" or "I totally agree with you" everytime the commentator switches... pretty please with sugar on top.
I think that you're improving steadily as a combo. However, there were many times that both of you seemed to ignore the supply count and I was looking at the minimap and supply more than I wanted to / should have to.
I like the tastosis approach, they make accurate predictions about what is going to unfold in the game rather than tell me where the first probe harass is going and what its doing. It is appropriate to commentate on whats going on, but it's also important to have substantial knowledge of the game so you can make these predictions and actually be correct.
I fear, HD, that you do not have that knowledge. I do like your voice though :D
(despite all this, you guys did do pretty well together! I would just say work on learning more about the game so you are more prepared next time.)
The problem with HD is that he is not very good at either of the two typical roles (play-by-play and analytical). I guess to improve he could either stop making predictions (he doesn't understand the game well enough) and focus on actually being exciting/funny, or he could make an effort to actually learn more about the game.
Painuser is pretty solid, he's obviously not a caster to 100% but his analysis is usually spot on.
Bit more game knowledge and less unnecessary hype would be awesome HD.
My biggest gripe is probably that you NEED to watch the minimap more. So much things were missed like drops etc. that I could see happening on the minimap, and THAT'S really frustrating for me.
Also if you don't have game knowledge it's fine - the only thing I hate (and a lot of other people as well I think) is when you say something flat out wrong while thinking it's right.
Voted yes, but: I agree with others that HD can hype some moments up too much while missing vital information; however, I really like the enthusiasm HD brings to the commentary. It feels like he really loves what he's doing, which is something I am missing from PainUser. HD is definitely my favorite of the duo.
As for more constructive criticism: be more aware of the language and lingo you guys use. There are times where I guess it's a matter of preference (I will always prefer "bio" to "MM"), but there are times when it takes me a second to get what you are talking about. The first time I heard "baneling bombs," I thought you guys meant overlords dropping banelings when you actually meant burrowed baneling traps/mines. Overall, I think you guys should use less game lingo (and general slang) and work on being more articulate (though I know this can be really hard in a live cast).
I love PainUser, HD's gotten much better, but I feel that if you want to step up your casting game, you need to up your SC2game, try playing some games as the other 2 races, it should give you a much better sense of the game and really help your analysis.
I'd say it was more a case of the other 2 caster-duo's being seriously good than HD being really bad, he made bad call's for sure and its seriously annoying but he also did make right calls. I think it's best (for now) if he casted a bit more like wheat - to avoid those wrong calls -, who can take a backseat when someone more knowledgeable is doing the analysis etc (which is why him and d.Apollo worked SO WELL together)
As a plus I think the way he cast's in battles etc is quite good, it creates excitement and hype, the problem arises when he continues his hype after the battle is over and the GG is incoming.
Painuser does a good job as the more analytical one and give's good insight, I'm pretty sure he knows that his knowledge of non-terran matchup's isn't top tier so I won't bother
Overall I think you are good casters that do have things to improve on, but I got frustrated quite a lot at the mis-call's so I voted no.
Best duo at IPL in my oppinion, great job. However, is it necessary to be asking for cheers all the god damn time? Especially, asking who's wanting theStc to make a comeback and then not being happy with the response seemed odd when he was playing Stephano.
Also, if you ARE going to be asking for cheers, separate the "cheer for who you want to win" and "cheer for this player just cause he is playing" as the above example illustrates.
I'm sorry but I can't like PainUser when he goes on these rants about player mistakes. A small example is when he went on a 2 minute complaint about TheSTC not walling off against Stephano. Yes, it was a mistake and yes TheSTC did end up losing that game but I'd appreciate it if you don't belittle the guy I'm rooting for, or any player for that matter.
Everyone loves or hates HD. I think HD fits his role pretty well. I don't look at him for game knowledge or analysis. He is the personality and the voice. He is unique and is quite fitting on stage. HD, if you read this I would suggest you just avoid as much analysis as you can because you won't make people happy in that respect even though I think you are pretty decent at it. Just focus on play-by-play, action and humor.
Unfortunately, I don't think the combo is that great. PainUser has a very monotone voice and has too much time to talk. Analysis players should talk in small moments when something unique is happening in the game. Whereas "The Voice" HDStarcraft should do most of the talking, explaining the hype of the tournament, the situation for both players and present action of hte game. During the IPL, it seemed like you both tried to share those positions, each doing parts of both. It showed both your weaknesses whereas you should be showcasing your strengths.
I like you both. I just want you to understand the structure of a "caster duo" a bit more, and show it.
On October 11 2011 20:16 Kuni wrote: Probably repeating what most of the people in this thread said. Painuser is perfectly fine. You on the other hand suffer from the same problem Husky suffered in the past, but he got over it and improved a lot, really. So it would not hurt to focus on improving your game knowledge and awareness of the things going on while casting. Maybe also work on some jokes and there have been a lot of situations, where the what we saw in the games were different from what you told us.
I'm sure you can do it, just like husky, who is not that bad anymore.
Husky's improvement is a great thing to look for.
Don't take the negative feedback too hard. I was agreeably surprised by your casting duo with painuser. I think it was much better than during the qualifiers so you need to keep working on some stuff.
My two cents :
- Be careful when you give an opinion on who's ahead/behind in a game. Sometimes you focused to much on few specific aspects and missed the more general trend of the game. In one of the early ZvP, when the zerg loses units to a FE stargate but is ahead in bases/workers/supply after the harassment/push, he is NOT behind. Sometimes Painuser would correct you but other times you both go head first into thinking that one player is way ahead and confirm each other's intuition and keep repeating wrong stuff. Try and keep a clear mind and don't let your counterpart influence your though too much. You need to help each other instead of pushing into the wrong direction with a nowball effect. I think the criticism you've had on the game knowlegde is due to rushing to conclusion ("A is definitely ahead... 2min later B is miles ahead...1min later A crushes B in a convincing fashion !!")
- Obsing was really bad at times. I know it can be really difficult to cast and obs at the same time. Try and see if it is possible to get a dedicated obs like in GSL. It was better at the end but some of the obsing made me sick with unstable screen, units fighting on the edge, following moving units by screen scrolling. You also missed many drops and even big engagements at times...
- Sometimes I felt awkward when you shared your own game experience as a zerg player ("when I get two raxed...blahblahblah). I don't mind it when the caster is competitive (ie painuser) but I think you lack legitimacy to include yourself, as you are comparing yourself (mid-masters ?) to players who are in a whole different league.
On October 11 2011 15:13 PH wrote: To start, you guys did a good job casting. It wasn't great, but it definitely wasn't bad.
The number one thing is you need to let Painuser make the predictions and do the analysis. Do the play by play while he breaks down what that play means for the audience. I mean no offense, but he knows the game on a deeper level as he is a high level player. This doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't cast Starcraft. It just means you need to let him do the thinking stuff. Be the Tasteless, the djWheat. Don't be the Artosis or the Day9.
Only the read the first page but this man sums up my thoughts exactly.
I was a bit sad when I heard that you would be commentating the finals, but I didnt mute it.
I get the impression there is no heart and honesty to your commentating. Just this very superficial smalltalk, raising your voice in situations that are pretty much decided, and acting cool when it is not needed. It takes the attention away from the game.
I really enjoyed the casts and i often had the stream in the background when i couldn't watch and had to do other stuff. Really a chill and relaxed enviroment but also the change of tempo that made me open the stream with excitment. The overall impression was very good but i could however tell the diffrence between you and some more experienced casters but i'm sure that the little extra will come with the time and i really hope to see more of you in the future tournaments. (:
A few things that comes to mind: - Don't be too quick to judge who is behind and/or loosing. - HD especially, don't get stuck using the same words like M&M and lings and b-lings
I'm surprised I'm not one of the people criticizing just because I seem to always find something to complain about in situations like this...but I actually really enjoyed HD and PainUser.
I thought it was ok, just a few points to improve on:
1) Less unwarranted sensationalism; Painuser suggesting at thestc's opening in game 1 vs stephano was 'the future on TvZ' really wound me up when it was clearly never going to be the case.
2) Dont clap loudly at the start of every game when your mics pick it up. This is very distracting for stream viewers.
3) Dont scream into the mic at the start of matches, however huge the match may be.
I'll be completely honest and say that I was a little disappointed that djWheat and dApollo weren't casting the finals, but I can't blame you guys for that - in my (personal, extremely biased) opinion djWhapollo(?) was one of the best things to grace the world since sliced bread.
You and PainUser did alright, really. It would probably help if you tried to stick to the play-by-play role a bit more consistently, and let Taylor handle the predictions and theorycrafting. It's actually okay to make a wrong prediction every now and again but often times it appeared as though you were taking away Taylor's opportunities to explain the situation. You obviously get really excited and fired up casting games (this is not criticism, it's pretty electrifying and one of your defining features as a caster, imho) but when you spot something unorthodox, rather than going out on a limb trying to explain what you see, just state what is going on, and then ask your analyst buddy what it means. It will help define both your roles during the cast better.
In my opinion, one of the main things that make caster combinations combinations like TotalBiscuit&dApollo, djWheat&Day9 and Husky&MrBitter, among others, work so well is that besides the obvious chemistry between the personalities, they complement each other very well, one focusing on play-by-play, the other providing analysis whenever needed, giving each other the necessary time to talk and overlapping the roles when appropriate. You and PainUser obviously get along well, and naturally fit these roles, so I believe you two have the potential to be another great casting archon. Just try to actively work together during the cast - ask for analysis when needed.
One last remark - having watched some of your cast-togethers during the qualifiers, you guys seemed to work more like a team than at the event. Maybe this was because of nerves, I don't know, anyway, don't beat yourselves up over it. If anything, it proves that you have what it takes. You just need to work on carrying it over to live events too.
You're at the same level as day9's casting/commentary which is ok, but means you could use some refinement. You did a good job, but just need to get more accurate assessments of situations and make sure to catch some small details that happen through the game.
Painuser - Solid overall. HD - Good casting voice, creates excitement even when there shouldn't be excitement poor game knowledge, you definately need improvement.
As a duo you two work well together.
Also the person who mentioned the observing and paying attention to the minimap is correct, I don't know who was the observer but sometimes during battles there were double drops going on and you either didn't mention it, or if you did mention it you didnt switch screen to it which I found annoying as hell.
On the other hand you and CatsP during online qualifiers I found to be really really bad. Sorry.
The combination of HDstarcraft and Painuser is definitely the best combination of the ign guys. I don't actually like to listen to CatsP or that other kid. I think the fact that you two guys are mates irl really shows through in the casting, much like Tastosis - I enjoy the banter.
I seen a lot of harsh criticism towards HD and I disagree on the most part, just keep doing what you're doing you're definitely one of the better casters out there! ;D
Im really getting tired of Painuser and HD. Painuser has a terrible caster voice and thinks he is some kind of gosu since he got high in one of the MLG's, he dont know much and is generally annoying/insecure.
Hd dont know shit about the game, im diamond and i feel i know more than him.
I really hope IGN see this and start brining day9 tastosis inn, i REALLY hate listening to these 2 casters... please....if there wasnt for the koreans and stephano i would not been watching. I believe most veiewers share my thoughts.
Ask artosis what he thinks about the casters at ipl, im sure he will give them 2/10. PLS IGN stick i finger in the dirt
HD u gotta improve even tho i rly like ur voice. But lately u kinda seem to be on the downfoot and freak out to much about to lil things. Don't get me wrong i enjoy ur channel and commentating but i defenitly saw u doing better keep up again! Painuser: If i could, i would marry you ♥. Your intentions and feelings for the games are so smooth and u have the minimap greatly in your eyes u catch so many things its just a pure AWESOMENESS watchin starcraft with you commentating it.
How can you guys say that HD overexaggerates things? It's his job as a caster.
If you want to talk about overexaggerating, don't you ever hate when Painuser goes "WooooooooooooooooooooooooooW". It's probably the most annoying sound lmao.
HD your doing fine and some people don't understand that your up there trying to cheer up a crowd and have some fun at the same time. You way funnier than Painuser, so you definately need to share some of your jokes with him, but overall I think you guys are just fine.
When people say HD doesn't have the game knowledge, he does, PainUser just knows how to predict an outcome of a battle a little more precise than HD does. So I would say HD just has to be more patient, i think patience in order to give a more accurate reading of what goes down is the best improvement for HD, and the best improvement for PainUser would be to stop going "WooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooW".
HD: You say you are aware of your lack of knowledge. That's good, but if that's the case you shouldn't talk about things that require quite some knowledge. It just makes you look arrogant and silly when it turns out to be wrong, which is more than often imho...
In my opinion, you have the perfect voice for casting, you are extremely enthusiastic and is good at play-by-play, which you should focus more on. Again, if you don't have the knowledge you shouldn't even talk about it to begin with. You should take a more "laid-back" role in terms of analysis, especially when you are with someone like Painuser who knows his shit. Take a step away from your solo-casting and find a more defined role when casting with someone else.
tl;dr: Focus A LOT less on analysis and more on play-by-play. You have a co-host who is pretty knowledgeable in this area, take use of him.
Painuser: No real complaints, pretty solid and knows his shit. Can sound a bit "dull" at times, but not that big of an issue.
Painuser: Good game knowledge, voice can use some work.
HD: I love your enthusiasm, it's great! I agree though that it happens too often that you call out something that's blatantly wrong.
I think you would both benifit from focussing more on your roles. HD should focus more on play by play than he does now, describing what is actually happening, without making judgements or predictions about what's going to happen. Painuser should stop trying to hype up play by play, he just doesn't have the voice for it. You are there to drop the knowledge bombs during downtime talking calmy .
In general I thought the cast was ok, the tournament itself was awesome, so I was entertained!
i don't know what to say man HD, you really turned me off to listening to you cast. i came in with no judgements and dropped what i thought i knew about you for this tournament because i disliked both you and Husky by the end of the beta. however, Husky really found his role in the last couple MLGs and so i figured you could've too, but you just didn't.
it's almost like you try to be everything at once and end up doing everything wrong.
i don't know who obses, but i have caught a LARGE amount of points where you and painuser are rambling theorycraft trying to predict the game about something virtually pointless while a run by or a drop or an important scout is coming in. if you just watched the minimap you could have a much better discussion because you can actually read what players are seeing and reacting with rather than blindly theorycrafting.
then there's your misplaced enthusiasm, you heavily overexaggerate things and poorly describe what's happening. you say things like "he's lost most of his x" when he just hasn't, most of his x are still there. the unit tab is up as you say it, i can clearly read it, you are just rambling and being wrong. you need to chill out and read what's happening, but i feel like you just don't know what's going on in the first place to even make that happen. that's also why i feel your enthusiasm is misplaced often times, because it's like you don't know what subtle thing is happening that is really very important, or you don't know when something obvious is happening that isn't really that spectacular despite your shouting.
i would recommend watching some high level games and analyze them to yourself in a cool, collected manner (but still as though you're speaking to an audience) as the action happens and then ask yourself if what you said is really what all the tabs are saying because it REALLY turns me off more than anything when people say wrong things confidently. i would also try to increase your awareness of the "hidden gems" of each game and try to learn to accurately evaulate them.
First of all I really like your Youtube videos HD and you have a great caster voice. You are the one who got me into watching SC2 casts.
I can understand some of the criticism here but I can't understand the poll result. The question is "Did you OVERALL enjoy our Cast at IPL3 AC?" and I think the answer has to be 90% "yes".
The IPL3 casters did all a very good job and I was very relieved I didn't have to listen to Tastosis this time. They are overrepresented and their casting annoys me. Day9 on the other hand would be a great caster for IPL and I think the combination Day9+DJWeat is one of the best possible.
Keep on doing such a great job HD.
Finally some advices: HD start playing Protoss and Terran sometimes Painuser start playing Zerg and Protoss sometimes both of you look more often at the minimap don't take the criticisms to heart
You really need to pay attention to the mini-map. I can't tell you how many times something went on (baneling bombs, drops, etc) that we just missed because you guys were admiring the creap spread.
There are so many complaints here. Instead of posting actual feedback I'll just say <3333 HD. Seeing as if it wasn't for you I probably wouldn't have ever watched casted SC2 matches, or be in Korea right now.. ^.^
@HD Your enthusiasm is what i really love about your casting, so don't ever change that. But as im sure many people have already pointed out, you have to work on your knowledge and analysis and not just blurt out the first thing that comes to your mind. Don't get me wrong, you're a great caster.
I'll take a stab at some constructive criticism although I'm almost certain you won't heed any of it.
I'll be very honest. Your casting was very poor. It will take a lot of effort to improve, starting with a deep level of humility to be able to accept it (which I'm skeptic that you have).
First, as many people have said, your game knowledge is still very poor. It's actually not a big deal though, that's what painuser is sitting next to you for. Instead of always trying to shell out your amateur level analysis, defer to the commentator next to you. What is really annoying is not your lack of game knowledge, it's your constant desire to analyze every trivial fact in the game just to prove you have some game sense. It feels like you're trying way too hard. Furthermore, you have a heavy zerg bias. You know little about protoss and terran in their own respect. It seems like you think zerg is the best race, the hardest race to play, the coolest race, the most underpowered race, and the race you root for every game no matter who is playing. Are we really supposed to want to watch that?
Next is your use of language. I hate to tell you this, but you fumble your words too often to make a decent cast. You don't care at all for precision in your language. You talk too fast and your mind can't keep up. Again it feels like you're trying too hard. Speak only at a pace that you can maintain control of your language. Every time you misuse your words or back yourself into a corner with a some convoluted sentence you can't seem to complete, the cast just takes a massive slide. Furthermore, some of the acronyms and abbreviations you use are just plain obnoxious. Like "bling" for baneling. Are you serious? Do you know what that sounds like? Stop it.
Finally, your comfort level in front of the camera seems off. You don't come off as genuine. Your behavior feels manufacturing. You chuckle at too many comments and try to make too many jokes. The audience isn't laughing but you have a demeanor that is as if you're about to burst out in laughter every second. You over-hype too many things during your cast. Your excitement seems feigned, manufactured. Again it feels like your trying way too hard.
I do not mean to be harsh at all, though I do admit these criticisms are serious. I believe your casting falls short in these areas. If you disagree, that's fine. I do hope you acknowledge what I've said though.
I think both PainUser and HD performed really well. They've got a great chemistry going on and while none of them seem to be very comfortable with Protoss, they've got sufficient knowledge to provide some interesting banter. I personally couldn't care less if they make a wrong call occasionally, I'm not there for the in depth analysis anyway.
I think people in general are much too anal about casters making wrong calls and not providing pro-level analysis. Very few people possess that kind of knowledge *and* the necessary charisma to make a good caster (when it comes to Terran, PainUser got this though). As long as a caster doesn't try to make an absolute truth out of a blatantly ridiculous claim it's cool with me.
That being said, knowledge and understanding is never, ever a bad thing and only good things can come from improving on it
Aside from all that, I think HD and PainUser are at their very best when they're providing relaxed banter rather than when they go into overdrive during the more intense moments.
So yeah, I liked their casting and I'm overall quite happy with the casting duos at the event. They all had their own flavor.
On October 11 2011 21:11 Wout wrote: You and PainUser did alright, really. It would probably help if you tried to stick to the play-by-play role a bit more consistently, and let Taylor handle the predictions and theorycrafting. It's actually okay to make a wrong prediction every now and again but often times it appeared as though you were taking away Taylor's opportunities to explain the situation. You obviously get really excited and fired up casting games (this is not criticism, it's pretty electrifying and one of your defining features as a caster, imho) but when you spot something unorthodox, rather than going out on a limb trying to explain what you see, just state what is going on, and then ask your analyst buddy what it means. It will help define both your roles during the cast better.
exactly this. i like HD doing his high energy play-by-play, and his game knowledge is okay, but painuser is there for a reason. this doesn't mean HD should stick only to play by play, and PU should do the analysis all the time, but sticking to your roles more wouldn't hurt you either.
The biggest improvement is paying attention to the minimap and production tab. Part of the reason there is misanalysis is because of these things. When I see 10 roaches making early game ZvT, I should here 'and looks like Zerg is going for a roach ling all in. Let's see if Terran can hold, oh know! He's making a 3rd command centre and teching straight to medivacs. He needs 2 more bunkers ASAP.' Rather than 'Zerg might wanna take a third or tech straight to muta. Oh wait, there are roaches in the middle. Let's see what happens.' The same could be said for paying attention to supplys, money and bases. It's a little annoying when the game is over, but you make it sound like its not. For youtube, this is good, but TL people are a little bit more pedantic than that.
painuser is okay and i was subscribed to HDsc for a very short time when sc2 first came out b/c i wanted to check out some casts. i dont like the chemistry between HD and painuser. I just feel i get more out of other casters. other casters focus on the game and strats and are not always making nerd jokes that only a handful of ppl get. I guess, HD acts almost as if its playtime, always giggling and cracking stupid jokes. I rather watch a professional cast.
I watched you a lot in the early days before and during beta, but at a certain point I didn't like your casting anymore and I wasn't sure why, but in retrospect I think I know.
Eventually you changed from that enthousiastic kid nerd into that sales guy I get at the door that wants to sell me something I don't want. The original genuine enthusiasm started to sound fake, you started to dress in a suit, your smile became that McDonalds guy smile, your voice too slick. You got a commercial air around you like I'm doing anything for my youtube viewer count, I want your money.
People also mention the lack of knowledge compared to guys like Day9 and Artosis a lot, but this in itself is no issue at all, because I can watch DJWheat, Husky and Tasteless fine. But there is a difference, these last 3 don't give me the feeling they "sell" me stuff they don't know, pretending like they do, while you often give me that feeling you do.
These 2 things combined are your biggest issue I think. At least that's what made me stop believing what you say eventually and the main reason I stopped watching you.
And this can be fixed. Because you are still that masters league sc2 zerg nerd. And you do have the casting skills. Silly thing is that I do think your enthusiasm is genuine, but you somehow make it feel fake. I think you should try to be yourself more, be the genuine HD, try to get rid of the fake sales guy thingy and you'll be a lot better soon.
To HD: Get a cameraman, you will feel more relief and you will do a better job at commentating.
Also. Remember, there is 1 guy that knows about the game, and there is another guy (you) that should not make analysis of the games, but rather, observe what you see and throw questions to the guy in charge of the analysis. This way, you will stop making bad calls.
The problem with bad calls is that your co caster most of the times will not correct you on camera to not embarrass you.
So focus more on ovservating, asking the right questions to your co-caster and making the game exiting and interesting when it needs to be by using different type of voice intonations.
It takes some balls for creating this thread. Taking criticism can be quite tough, so I hope you take some of these on board and ignore those who just bash.
Just simple points
- Other race knowledge. I think it would be a good idea to play the other races. It'll help out a lot for casting for both of you. I know Apollo + Day9 plays random. Artosis switched to Protoss and IMO it has improved his casting.
- Work to your strengths, HD only casting play by play, Painuser can just talk about analysis. Don't enter each others territory unless it's a discussion.
- Don't use abbreviations! I couldn't believe you describe the Planetary Fortress as PF. It's ok written down, but as a caster... No!
- Minimap!!! (It's not just you, I believe Catspajamas is also very guilty of this. Part of assigning roles again, the analyser can point you to areas you're missing)
- more preparation. This is a must for all casters not just you guys. Apollo setting a standard for prepOf course the more preparation you do the better. Player info/stats/playstyle.
+ Love the enthusaism from both
+ You have good chemistry with each other
+ quite entertaining during down time (sponsors shout outs were fantastic)
Overall I enjoyed the casting I voted yes. It's good to add a bit of personality to the cast, but if in doubt stay professional. You'll get more respect that way.
People are talking about game knowledge, it’s true you should be checking some more GSL and stuff to be more aware of the meta-game, but mostly you should try to abstain from making prediction when you are not 100% sure of what’s going on. Or just throw the ball to Pain User. Check out the Husky/Day9 duo from MLG, I think Husky learnt to just ask Day9 about what is happening when he is not sure. “So Sean, what do you think this hellion build might be followed with ?”.
Don’t change anything about your voice tone or excitement, you have 300 000 subscribers on Youtube for a reason. You are the first sc2 caster I ever listened too, you are the one who dragged me into esports at first, so cheers HD ! Just stop making weird predictions and work on your chemistry with Pain-U and I know you guys will become great casters.
On October 11 2011 22:37 simansh wrote: Anyone else finds it strange how we collectively whine on casters this much. Never seen this before in any other 'culture'
To be fair people whined about Husky forever ... but when he did a great job at MLG and made this same exact thread ... 91% voted yes that he did a good job 9% voted no.
I am sure HD will take the criticism well and improve his casting ..... I think that is beneficial to everyone
On October 11 2011 22:30 Micket wrote: The biggest improvement is paying attention to the minimap and production tab. Part of the reason there is misanalysis is because of these things. When I see 10 roaches making early game ZvT, I should here 'and looks like Zerg is going for a roach ling all in. Let's see if Terran can hold, oh know! He's making a 3rd command centre and teching straight to medivacs. He needs 2 more bunkers ASAP.' Rather than 'Zerg might wanna take a third or tech straight to muta. Oh wait, there are roaches in the middle. Let's see what happens.' The same could be said for paying attention to supplys, money and bases. It's a little annoying when the game is over, but you make it sound like its not. For youtube, this is good, but TL people are a little bit more pedantic than that.
Otherwise, it was really enjoyable.
I came here to post exactly that. Most of your wrong calls could be easily avoided with a better focus on the minimap and production tab. I don't want to hear "PlayerX should expand" when we see a CC in the prdocution tab bar. I don't want to hear, "Zerg player is in bad shape, he's lower on supply" when we see that he has stored 1k/1k and muta den is about to pop. Same for all the drops and multi prong harras that are often missed because of too many focus on some other moves. This is a really tough job but you're talented and have good wills so I have no doubt you'll improve that. Never assume you know what the player is doing When a terran player tries to force a zerg to produces units, it usually is casted like this : "Terran is ready go for the attack this gonna be the decisive battle! Oh wait he pulls back... Oh no he's really going on offensive, oh wait he pulls back again...."
-You and Taylor have great chemistry and both of you have great casting voices as well. -Your observing was great. Imo it was much better than CP and DJWheat´s. -Its easy to see and feel your compassion for the game. Makes it entertaining and enjoyable. -I think you did a great job at cheering up the rather limited crowd. Not an easy job in a completely loopsided ZvZ (talking about the finals ofc). -Sometimes you guys crack me up with funny/stupid comments about huge archon balls and scv´s buttfollowing eachother. -I like when Painuser points out obvious mistakes like STC not walling off after scouting a roach/ling all-in. Casters in generel are too polite to players making huge mistakes.
Things to improve on:
-Unlike many others I dont think you lack game knowledge in particular. However, and this goes for many casters, you seem to lack player knowledge. Why is it that we almost never get to hear where a player is from, how old he is, what is his background and so on. All we get to hear is who he defeated in the previous round. Also it would be cool to tell some player anecdotes if you know any as well as previous tournament history.
yeah the analytical part was quite good but the enthusiasm especially for the final and semis was missing a little bit (if you compare it to apollo and djWheat
In a thread where the casters are looking for feedback of any kind, no it is not unusual that we to in fact give feedback, be it positive or negative. It would be totally pointless if everybody was saying, that there is nothing to change, as there obviously are always points to improve and that's what they want to know about. So bitching about those who give criticism is much more annoying than giving the criticism itself.
I think the casting was great between HD and Painuser, two casters I honestly have not had the pleasure of hearing enough of.
I agree with some of the general criticism in this thread regarding, more precisely, presentation of game knowledge. I don't doubt that between both HD and PainUser there is the knowledge of all match ups and far more strategies than known by even the average high level player, however perhaps as a combination in Live events you need more practice as a pair
Have specific roles for the dual cast. Stick someone on analysis and the other on play by plays, perhaps even switch it up should a match up be better understood by one and not the other.
Also, this is more a wishlist item than a comment on the casting: + Show Spoiler +
I'd love to see something like AskJoshy's Picture-in-Picture view implemented in IPL (live or not). I know he does it in post production, but with all casters I find it disjointing when someone is giving the play by play of a huge battle, and someone "has" to interrupt to inform them of a drop. Of course, we do need to know of the drop, but I always find it disjointing for viewers if a camera moves around in the midst of a giant battle or engagement. (Probably asking for too much haha, but with IGN production values I think IPL might be able to pull it off)
To be honest, it's great to see such a thread created by yourself.
The good thing is, that we can clearly see your improvement. As the others pointed out, you'll need work on a few things - but thats nothing you can't improve.
My biggest negative point was the repeatedly usage of "Com Sat", but thats my point of view.
Work on your game knowledge show them, what cool matches you can cast.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
I'd like to mention I disagree with this. I want to see the production tab more than anything else. I feel you can have such a good sense of the game just by seeing what is being made.
I feel a good caster duo should have one caster with the job of calling the play by play action, and one that gives strategy and big picture type info.
There is one notable exception to this being Artosis and Tasteless, but they both have such knowledge of the game they can both fill each roll, while Day9 and DjWheat would have Wheat as the play by play and Day9 as the strategy caller due to day9's superior game knowledge. (although day9 often ends up doing both while wheat just watches the game ).
Your camera skills need some work. Many times the camera would constantly overshoot wherever it was panning to, and you would just wiggle it around on an empty base. Drove me nuts.
There was a lot of things missed on the minimap.
The yelling into the mic made me cringe.
But most importantly, m&ms and blings have to go. Seriously.
I thought you guys were really great at casting games. You made them pretty exciting, and provided good play by play. My only complaint is that your game analysis was weaker than other casters like a day9 for example. But I think that is because painuser knows Terran more than any other race. So if I had any advice it would be to research other races, and players. Overall I enjoyed the casting and really appeciate the effort you guys, and IGN for that matter put into this amazing event.
You guys did great. I just dont like the name casting reactor mainly because it's like its copied from tastosis the casting archon which also makes more sense.
On October 11 2011 22:47 DaCruise wrote: I will start with the positive stuff:
-You and Taylor have great chemistry and both of you have great casting voices as well. -Your observing was great. Imo it was much better than CP and DJWheat´s. -Its easy to see and feel your compassion for the game. Makes it entertaining and enjoyable. -I think you did a great job at cheering up the rather limited crowd. Not an easy job in a completely loopsided ZvZ (talking about the finals ofc). -Sometimes you guys crack me up with funny/stupid comments about huge archon balls and scv´s buttfollowing eachother. -I like when Painuser points out obvious mistakes like STC not walling off after scouting a roach/ling all-in. Casters in generel are too polite to players making huge mistakes.
Things to improve on:
-Unlike many others I dont think you lack game knowledge in particular. However, and this goes for many casters, you seem to lack player knowledge. Why is it that we almost never get to hear where a player is from, how old he is, what is his background and so on. All we get to hear is who he defeated in the previous round. Also it would be cool to tell some player anecdotes if you know any as well as previous tournament history.
Yup, I can say this is pretty accurate. There are so many positive points more than negative ones. I really enjoy watching games casted by HD and Painuser, just because the chemistry is great and everything that DaCruise said in his post.
I feel like Painuser is doing a good job when it comes to match ups that involve T but lacks knowledge when it comes to non-T matches, and HD can't really make up for that as he's not at that level of knowledge. Maybe laddering a bit with the other races would help in that regard.
The Play by Play part:
Since casters seem to always talk in turns you could try having the one that is not talking always look at the minimap / production to better keep up with what's going on. You did fairly well but you could still improve.
As for the actual voices HD is doing ok, Painuser's voice is a bit weak. I think doing some breathing exercises will help a lot.
Last but not least, there were a few occasions where you basically shouted in the microphone, never, ever do that. You can sound just as intense without increasing the actual volume of your voice.
I want to commend you on your camera control. It was infinitely better than CatsPajamas and I feel like I didn't miss half the match while watching you guys.
I do think that improving you overall player and game knowledge is always good but I do think that you have pretty good chemistry with painuser. Also, please remember that people responding in TL might be in the higher tier as far as expectations of game knowledge go. Also, there does to be a lot of bandwagon hating that goes on here and people that have criticism to make tend to post more so please don't be discouraged by some of the hate. Gl!
First, Painuser is terran biased, it feels in little thing in his commentary and its really annoying for me. He always commentate whats going on from a terran point of view, even he doesnt want to , it seems like terran race is deep in his blood, and nothing we can do. Second, plz, stop criticizing players but underline good things they do, (basically this is pretty much day9s approach). I dont like this negative energy in commentary. You are here to commentate, not to judge players, and talking like "why you doing this, you should do this and this" and such. Overall im watching sc to feel good and be entertained, so plz dont critizes, it promotes negative enegry i dont like it. Also sometimes you dont understand correctly whats pros is doing and critizing them is really arrogant. And third, stop making prediction about whats going to happend, like this force of units gonna crush other one cos there is not enough ultralisks. you were giving wrong calls 60% of times i would say, that was pretty bad. And why do you need to make those prediction of whats going to happen at all? What for is it? Just say us whats happening, and how exciting it is and stuff like that, for ex. "lets see whats gonna happen, this group of units attacking this base, ... oh it crushs it, what a beautiful micro" and not whats going to happen in your opinion. Even if you either being right or wrong. This is not entertaining.
Some constructive criticism for HD that you guys can use would be better than 'let PainUser handle everything.'
1- A player has a definitive lead only when he has the lead in both army and economy, or is tied for one and ahead in the other. As a caster, you need to check both before you make the call.
Ex. A Zerg double expands, and his Protoss opponent goes for a 1-base blink all-in. The Zerg has a huge economy advantage, but the Protoss player has a huge army lead. Until the Zerg can stabilize in army or the Toss limits the Zerg's bases, neither player can be said to be 'ahead'.
2- You (HD) always seem to be very cautious when discussing whether or not a player should attack; remember that there are many reasons to attack/harass and many benefits other than just killing stuff. You force players to reveal their tech, and can snipe key units. Its often worthwhile for a disadvantaged M/M/M ball to attack into a Tank line in midgame TvT to limit the tank count, even if the trade seems awful at times.
You guys already know this stuff, but it seems that when you see something you don't recognize, HD stumbles to theorycraft it on the fly. Particularly with Protoss lol.
I always find you entertaining and professional, HD. I haven't liked PainUser in the past, and I'm not sure what he changed this time around, but I enjoyed him here.
I think its okay to "lack" game knowledge or whatever. Your role is the color, while Taylor does the analytical stuff f(comparing to like Tastosis, Taylor plays more of the Artosis role while you play the Tasteless role). Your excitement is through the roof and its very exciting. Just make sure you PLEASE dont make wrong calls. Nothing pisses me off more than having these "professional" commentators make clearly wrong calls and say that the players are doing something for reason X when its obviously for reason Y. Just be careful when trying to call things like that - that's Taylor's job really.
Knowledge and predictions aren't great, but they don't really have to be, PainUser should have that covered more so.
What really put me off is your abbreviation of everything. No more M&M's (unless you're talking about the sweets), Blings, Nat etc. It doesn't need to be abbreviated.
I thought your two were good. Possibly a bit too much role crossing during the cast, IE both doing play by play or analytic stuff. I'm a believer in more sports model casting where there is clearly a play by play guy who just calls what is happening, and the colour guy who says why. Personally, I don't think it's that important to attempt to call what they are going to do. As a viewer, I don't really care and it's about what they are doing.
To be perfectly honest, I didn't enjoy your casting at all. Reading the comments here, and reading the comments in "caster combos in IPL", I'm think people are being far too nice here Sorry. I don't like you personal set of terms that you use (Eminem instead Mariner Marauder, Bling, Comsat, IE) which exemplify your lack of game knowledge. It doesn't help that you are making the wrong calls ingame, and then using what I would consider the wrong terms to describe said call.
I think HD and PainUser were probably the best combo of them all but HD just be you and dont try to change based on the occasion. I am not a huge fan of DJ Wheat personally so that why I thought HD and PainUser were the best.
1st. Painuser is superb caster in every aspect of casting and HD you bring out the fun part of him during your co-cast that gives me a lot of giggles during watching. The ways to improve for you HD is that you are too predictable what you are going to say(one dimensional). Its like i have seen you cast 20 games this month and in every situation i already know what you are going to say . I`ll say it another way : your always scratching the surface the same way(predictable), while the best casters bore holes in different directions(not predictable). To change that you should learn and think deeper about the game a bit more.
All in all I think you are the 2nd most entertaing casting duo behind tastosis.
painuser is good HD sucks. He thinks he is a really good player when basically he is shit and a twat to listen too. When painuser says something from his past as being a pro gamer HD always tries and says something about himself making out as if he has been a pro gamer when he hasnt never will be and will never be good at commenting. Ditch HD bring in CP and everything will be much better for IPL even bring fucking joshy in instead of HD. Painuser rules though.
On October 12 2011 00:32 Cookiee wrote: painuser is good HD sucks. He thinks he is a really good player when basically he is shit and a twat to listen too. When painuser says something from his past as being a pro gamer HD always tries and says something about himself making out as if he has been a pro gamer when he hasnt never will be and will never be good at commenting. Ditch HD bring in CP and everything will be much better for IPL even bring fucking joshy in instead of HD. Painuser rules though.
Get out if you dont have anything constructive to say.
Try to be civil, guys... saying HD is a 'twat' is just unnecessary.
I've never understood why people don't like you. Sure, you don't know as much about the game as PainUser, but I much prefer the sound of your voice. No offence to him, but he sounds a little nasal.
As a casting duo, you were good. Not amazing, but pretty darn solid. I would listen to you again, easily.
Hey I just wanted to stop by to say that I think you two are one of the best casting combos out there. You're fun (The visine jokes and the 3d glasses thing was definitely funny) and you guys sound completely natural when you're making jokes and not forced. You're also very on topic and focused on the game. Something that annoys me when I listen to casters like doa is that they spend a lot of time trying to make jokes and talking about possible situations with the jokes... I like the way you guys do it a lot. Thanks for great casting at the IPL!
It's really great that you HD, are taking more of an emphasis on professional tournaments. I would much rather every day watch these countless tourneys with good casters.
My largest pet-peeve is when casters go off on tangents that have absolutely nothing to do with the game. When you don't know what to say when the action is slow, or the game just starts there is actually way more to talk about then you think. Come prepared with stats. Talk about the players, the map, matchup, metagame with the two players, etc.
It's a serious tournament, keep it that way. ESPN casters don't start talking about something silly like if a bear beats a wolverine.
You guys have a good chemistry and I enjoy your combo the most out of the three combos involving you and catspajamas.
HD, I would modulate your excitement more. You do a great job of being excited, but you shouldn't be at a really high level of excitement all game. The best casting is when the pitch, tone, and energy of the cast is matched by what's going on in the game. When the game and the cast have that synergy, the whole experience becomes that much greater for the viewer. The best way to achieve this is to never fake it. Never try to make the game more exciting than it is. Imagine if you were just watching the game - would you really want to scream that much about that octodrop?
Painuser - you have a tendency to say "certainly" and "I agree" after what HD says. You don't need to. Even if you do agree, just move on to what you were going to talk about next anyway. Casting should feel like a natural conversation (at least in rhythm) - who in real conversation says "I agree" before responding to someone else? Also, if HD is clearly wrong, tell him so. I know you do do this during the broadcast of the qualifiers, but seemed a little more hesitant when you were up on stage.
I enjoyed the casting from everybody, but HD and Painuser could use a little bit of work. I think HD needs to tone down his excitement when there's really not that excitement and Painuser needs to keep doing what he is doing but tweak a few things.
I think the reason why there are so many haters in this thread is because HD is a gateway caster. He helps new people get into E-Sports (I was one of them) and I think his "basic" game knowledge doesn't fit people who watch and play the game competitively.
Me and a friend were watching all weekend and she was having a hard time understanding some of HD's terms since he likes to abbreviates so I had to do a little explaining, but after a while she got used to it and learned the basics of Starcraft while watching day 4.
So my advice to HD is to not overhype everything, tone down the excitement until something actually happens. You need to talk more strategy and execution and overall gameplay. Other than that, I feel like if you relax a little more, try a little less to please everyone, I think HD can be a fine caster. HD got me into Starcraft so I am always grateful for that, but if he improves his analysis and gameplay sense rather than just knowledge of units and roles, he will become a great caster to go alongside Painuser.
Painuser is kinda monotone and could lighten up a bit. But I like his analysis and gamesense.
Overall was a good cast and an awesome Tournament. Best of luck in the future.
I love you guys. You have so much chemistry together, you joke around, you know each other personally and I think that makes you a great pair. I specially enjoyed when you both used Visine (Visine fighting!) and when you both put on the 3D glasses.
HD: "How are your eyes?" PU: "Great" HD: "I can't see anything." PU: "Me neither" *crowd lols*
IMO it's a shame that catpajamas doesn't get more love. I think him and DOA were awesome together. That being said HD and Painuser were ok but just ok not sure if it was the miss calls or at times not hearing eachother. I know it's a tough gig but i wouldn't put this duo in the top 3.
My only issue with your casting is your use of acronyms to describe things in the game. During your casts, a Planetary Fortress becomes a "PF", which is ok because I know what a "PF" is, but there are a number of viewers that will hear that and wonder wtf you're talking about. "MnM" is another example of an acronym that you'll use that should be avoided. Experienced players will know that "MnM" is Marine Marauder, but many viewers don't know exactly what you mean. You should only use these acronyms if you're also going to explain, right away, what that acronym means (Tasteless style).
Specific to your casting HD, I would only say that you should invest some time into improved articulation. It sounds like you have an accent and that's fine, but all the more reason to work on your articulation. You're job is to talk to the viewer and tell that what's going on, the better you can be at that, the more enjoyable your cast will be. A couple of examples include your pronunciation for "gold", where you might say "The terran is taking the 'gode' base." I get it, we all get it, that's your accent, but you CAN improve that (remember, Day9 has a lisp) with a simple drama technique. Three times a day, simply repeat this sentence, which a particular focus on pronouncing the "L" sound in each word "The Long Lost zergLing could bareLy hoLd the goLd aLL aLone." Another example was your constant declarations that "The Ess-See-See" was going to do something. Again, focus on saying "The Ess-Tee-See".
To people complaining about your game knowledge, tell 'em to shove it. Sports casters all over the world are constantly wrong in their analysis of the game. Sometimes complaining about a team's strategy having glaring weaknesses while the team steamrolls their opponent, other times declaring a player is having a great/poor game while they suck/dominate. Predictions are just that, predictions, and predictions can be wrong.
One last thing, sometimes you guys would forget to have the production tab/unit tab up. Stop that. Always keep one or the other running, with quick glances at the other tabs for periodic updates.
Totally love painuser's casting. I find that you call stuff too early though and that there are also a lot of time's where you simply keep going and don't let the other caster in at all. Even sometimes when it was very obvious that painuser was about to say something and just got cut off.
I think you should consider segregating your roles a bit more (I feel like you do this a little).
What is mean is HD should primarily be the play-by-play guy (tone down the excitement and hyperbole a smidge), and PainUser should be the Analyst.
I'm not saying you both can't do both, but I always prefer this method my default, maybe because it's the standard in Pro Sports.
I LOVE the Gordon Hayward shenanigans and the Interviews that you feature in between games.
Also, not sure if this is the place for it, but the parts where you watch diamond players or whatever doesn't really fly with me. The parts where PainUser and HD actually ladder and commentate is pretty cool. It's neat to hear what the guy looking over your shoulder thinks.
All in all, to me IPL is right up there with MLG in terms of production and casting quality.
I personally feel that CatsPajamas(?) may be the most underrated caster in the entire SC2 scene. And I want to see and hear this beautiful man much more often.
I thought you guys did great. I don't really care if a caster makes a wrong call here and there, because I can usually deduce what's happening for myself. I guess some people need to be told everything to understand what's happening though. I enjoyed all the caster duos and I thought IPL3 was a fantastic event.
-They aren't really good friends -I don't feel as though they are knowledgeable -Their interaction and banter is very forced with little to no chemistry, lots of dead moments -HD seems very nervous all the time in his speaking
This combo is far from the worst but it's generally one of the least enjoyable. I was sad that DjWheat/dApollo weren't given the finals and ended up muting quite a large portion of the finals just to listen to friends on ventrilo and later on Day9 semi-comment on the games from his stream.
I think with more practice/training you guys could be fine, I just don't feel it right now. It doesn't feel like a professional 'IGN' level cast.
Also, I'll echo the sentiment that overall game knowledge needs to be improved. For reference, game 3 (I believe) in the finals HD you go on and on at length about lucky playing so dangerously greedy by taking his 3rd so quickly and how stephano should really punish that greedy play etc., but stephano had already taken an even earlier third that was about 50% more complete than luckys. ~_~
I really enjoy your casting, the banter makes it even better. The only thing I would improve is the depth of analysis. I generally watch pro games to learn, the more information and understanding that gets shared during a cast, the more I like it. Sometimes you two go very deep into the game, other times it's more of play by play and more casual. I prefer the discussion of strategy myself.
Sorry HD, but it just felt like you never felt comfortable up there. The health bars were on, the missed calls and mini map tracking, the premature assumptions. Not to mention the awkwardness between games... at least painuser was calling u on it haha. I'm not saying give up. Just need to go back, look at the footage and see where you can improve. All the best in the future.
edit: ling bling sounds bad(stupid), I would nip that in the bud
I haven't read the the rest of this, so I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but game knowledge and grammar needs work (learn when words end in "ed", and when they don't, for example). On a positive note, you miss far fewer drops than you once did, so that's good You were one of the ones who got me into this game, so I look forward to seeing improvement!
HD I think you've improved tons since you were at MLG and I've always liked painusers casting, banter pre and post game seemed to flow well and sponsor spots were really good.
I'm on the 'more info' side of the fence, so I like to see swaps between unit and production tabs, as well as calling scv/drone counts after any heavy harassment.
Need to work on minimap awareness, and more importantly the ZvZ matchup. It was clear in the finals that neither of you really understood the build interactions and which details were important to mention. Primarily production wise, with 2 hatch vs 1 hatch speedling vs bling, and the importance of queens dying.
I had a pretty good time with your cast overall, but some things kind of aggrevated me. First, your use of acronyms and synonyms seemed out of place a lot of the time, referring to the middle of Antiga as "in the midfield" (PU) "in mid" and other terms that I can only assume are derrived from Sportscasts. But even those can't sugarcoat the fact that your casting was very repetitive in word usage. During the semis I counted 4 "midfield"s and 3 "mid"s during a single minute. Also I don't know why you would use such terminology as "m and ms" in a supposedly serious cast. Just stop using those acronyms alltogether and spell everything out. Overall you 2 have a good rhythm though, not too overhyped and shouting (like day9).
I loved hd's casting, but i felt that painuser really lacked a lot of things i like in a caster, for one it almost was too biased at times with every battle that stephano took TheSTC on in he would just always say that the terran should come out ahead, and stephano crushed him time and time again. I feel like if he knew more of the ins and outs of the other races a bit more he would be a better caster, but i feel hd is and always will be a top notch caster. Love catspajamas too ha
As a master's player who keeps up with strategies, builds, and the meta game, HD is a very knowledgeable caster - especially for zerg. His casting was especially good during the ZvZ finals.
PainUser is alright imo. He obviously understands Terran, but seemed kind of lost with regard to Zerg play.
A lot of casters use the Production tab as cruise control, and it really kills it knowing what will happen. I also don't like it when casters say, "I think it's gg" - you're more or less ending the game for the spectator, try and hype up the person who is "losing" so it is better for the people watching, more exciting.
Personally, you two were not my favorite duo at IPL, but I still did not mind your casting. Of course you can improve in many of the ways mentioned here, but I honestly think you guys did a pretty good job.
To be quite honest, you guys are leaps and bounds behind DJWheat and Apollo in terms of chemistry, (Apollo's) game knowledge, and Wheat's controlled energy and passion. They set themselves apart at the IPL and I think watching them would prove beneficial.
HD : Game knowledge is way too low for this kind of tournament. Imo you need to let go the analyst point of view and focus on the entertainment value of the cast.
PainUser : too much biased toward Terran imo. For a P user, this is kinda boring sometimes. But can be interesting too depending on the situation.
I thought you guys did a good job, the only thing I noticed was that sometimes you both would try to analyze slightly too much. As casters, your main job should be to present the action in an entertaining fashion, you don't get bonus points for using your own game knowledge to predict what a player is going to do or what you would do in the situation or if its going to work. It's one thing to explain the reasoning or thought process going through a pro's head as they do a strategy, but I just felt like you both spent too much energy predicting outcomes as if you were betting on the game or something.
t;ldr Focus on presenting the action, analysis is fine but spend more energy making sure to capture all the action of the game.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
I actually prefer to know what's going on in the game and like to hear analysis of strategies.
Edit: I wasn't a big fan of you guys, I wanted Day9/Tastosis to cast IPL3 but I disagree with a lot of the criticism in this thread.
I think people (mainly kids?) are being way too harsh. Every time someone mispronounces a word in a cast, a bunch of people will tell you to "learn grammar" or something, as if that's constructive. I hope that you guys are able to get at least some use from threads like these, because I get the impression that this mainly people jumping on the opportunity to be negative.
I think you and PainUser did a spectacular job at IPL. You compliment each other very wll since PU has great knowledge of the game and you voice is really smooth and easy to listen to. I think you should be proud, few would do a better job.
thank god PainUser is a knowledgeable caster because HD is not, you should refrain from saying informative things and stick with being exciting. or just watch more replays.
HD is not a knowledgeable caster? People are really exposing themselves as not knowing anything about zerg. HD knows his stuff and is actually a good player
I remember watching some of HD´s casts before buying sc2 and found them quite entertaining. HD appeared to be slightly more knowledgeable than Husky. After I bought the game and watched a bit of GSL and day9, I quickly lost all interest in HD and Husky.
He has a great voice, but apart from that what makes him interesting? I see nothing but an assertive cheesy smile, constantly misplaced fake enthusiasm and superficial game understanding.
On October 11 2011 22:33 Zandar wrote: I watched you a lot in the early days before and during beta, but at a certain point I didn't like your casting anymore and I wasn't sure why, but in retrospect I think I know.
Eventually you changed from that enthousiastic kid nerd into that sales guy I get at the door that wants to sell me something I don't want. The original genuine enthusiasm started to sound fake, you started to dress in a suit, your smile became that McDonalds guy smile, your voice too slick. You got a commercial air around you like I'm doing anything for my youtube viewer count, I want your money.
People also mention the lack of knowledge compared to guys like Day9 and Artosis a lot, but this in itself is no issue at all, because I can watch DJWheat, Husky and Tasteless fine. But there is a difference, these last 3 don't give me the feeling they "sell" me stuff they don't know, pretending like they do, while you often give me that feeling you do.
These 2 things combined are your biggest issue I think. At least that's what made me stop believing what you say eventually and the main reason I stopped watching you.
And this can be fixed. Because you are still that masters league sc2 zerg nerd. And you do have the casting skills. Silly thing is that I do think your enthusiasm is genuine, but you somehow make it feel fake. I think you should try to be yourself more, be the genuine HD, try to get rid of the fake sales guy thingy and you'll be a lot better soon.
This 1000x! This is exactly how I felt and I couldn't put it into words.
I subscibed to HD in the beta and loved it. But now I remember you doing those give-a-ways, advertisements and then MLG/GSL started and I focused on that. You honestly looked more comfortable plugging Visine then you did when casting.
HD, you're a good caster, but you just have to keep playing and learn to make better calls -- or stick to play-by-play and not make a call if you're not sure.
I think keeping up with other tournaments ands broadcasts (like GSL) would help in terms of staying up to date with the meta-game as well. If you can't analyze or make a call on the fly, at least you'll be able to mine your brain and reference other games.
Well done to you guys for opening up this thread. It's awesome that you're open to criticism and are working hard to improve. In the spirit of being helpful by providing honest feedback, I'll admit that I muted the stream often when you two were casting.
It wasn't for a lack of enthusiasm on your part, while I think that all foreign casters could generally be a bit more exciting, that wasn't something that I felt distinguished you guys negatively. My main issue with your casting was that you two were frequently downright wrong in your analysis and predictions. Everyone makes mistakes in predicting what is going on in the players heads, and sometimes the better casters miss the objective of a certain build order. But I'm sorry to say that you guys do it with such regularity that it's sometimes a little painful to listen to.
Moreover, you guys have a habit of making mistakes in an extremely forceful and confident tone, which is particularly cringe worthy. Or else saying something so banal and obvious as though it's a critical strategic insight. (One I remember in particular was HD insisting that a third base would be really important in a game that was already on two bases for a while, with both players playing a passive-till-maxed style). Reading some of the comments in this thread, you seem to have fooled a bunch of people, but convincing people that you're right doesn't actually make the analysis right.
A final issue is that you guys have a habit of beginning to predict a battle result, than drawing out the sentence or holding a vowel sound until you're sure of the outcome, just to make sure you're right. Sometimes when the battle goes the opposite way that you intended, it's a really obvious that you expected the opposite outcome and changed your words mid-sentence to sound like you expected the result all along.
So to improve on all of this, I'd suggest that you be more comfortable with not knowing some things. If you don't have any special knowledge about what is going on, don't feel pressured to add it. Don't make predictions about a battle, just describe how the battle is going. Describe the micro and the engagement. For build orders you're unfamiliar with, describe the build. For maps you don't know the balance of, describe the map. Don't try to sound like you know it all, nobody expects you to.
At the same time, we do expect you to know more than most people. On more than one occasion, it didn't sound that way at all. In a specific instance, one of you previewed a Liquid`HerO match by saying that HerO is a 'passive' player. That's like calling IdrA's style "low economy" or calling TLO's style "orthodox". It's the farthest thing from the truth possible. I can't remember a single game where HerO has ever played passively, and thus had to conclude that neither of you had actually watched him ever play. I understand that you guys do a lot of work, but it seems like part of your pre-tournament preparations should be to dredge up a few youtube videos or replays of all the players you'll be casting in the tournament, just to make sure you have something to say about their styles. For example, HuK always opens with one of two openings on Shakuras, or IdrA never scouts certain proxy positions on certain maps. These are well-known facts to most people in the scene, but perhaps not to the ordinary spectator. So if you're prepared with some background on the maps and the players, you won't run into this problem of seeming really uninformed.
I should also mention that you two were probably the highest ranked on ladder pair of casters at IPL, but that doesn't mean much, because (A) it's on NA, and (B) the top top top players of EU and KR are playing at a different level than even most GM players ever see.
That's all, I hope you guys take some valuable lessons from this thread and really use it to improve. Good luck in casting future tournaments!
Let me just say firstly that I subscribed to your YouTube channel way back during the beta, and I used to really enjoy your videos. I have no biases against you as a caster and I want you to succeed. But, it honestly seems to me that as time goes on, your casting gets progressively worse. Two things:
1. The jokes. I guess this is just personal, but I feel like you try too hard to be funny or cool when you don't have to, and it comes off as awkward. Many facepalm moments occur in this department.
2. This is THE BIG ONE. Your analysis. You need to be honest with yourself, man. You are not a good analyst. You are not a top-tier player. PainUser is a much, much better player than you, and even he struggles a lot with situations not involving Terran. It's really hard because you cast for IPL, where CatsPajamas can't analyze and PainUser is very laid back, but you really, really need to stop. Just stick to telling us what is going on, not what is going to happen, because you are wrong a good 30-40% of the time and it makes your casts unwatchable for me.
So, that's about it. I really hope you tone it down, humble yourself a bit, and go back to being a good caster again.
As for PainUser, no real complaints. I think he needs to speak up more often and really take the analysis role seriously. Right now it feels like to me the IPL casters have no chemistry. CatsPajamas never impressed me during the IPL seasons, but he really shined with Doa, so maybe you and PainUser just need to shake things up a bit too.
As someone already said, you complement each other very nicely.
HD: Confident and smooth. Nice hyping.
Painuser: I think you are holding back your knowledge I'm sure u know much more than you speak out. Don't be afraid to make predictions, estimates etc. Also, you seem a bit nervous at times. When the camera is on you you tend to turn your posture towards HD and talk to him while you should rather be speaking to the audience!
Also, you tend to use these words way too much - you know - like - absolutely huge (and other exaggeration)
I think you both did quite well and I actually think you guys improved a lot over the weekend. You guys have a ton of potential and I don't see anything stopping you from becoming S class casters. Keep improving!
edit: I'd like to second everything treehugger said, I'm just bad at articulating in english. I didn't mute the stream tho
I think casters have this feeling of pressure to make sure that someone is always talking during a game. Because of this, you may find yourself searching for words just as filler. This doesn't give you much time to think about the game critically. I think it would help if you relaxed a little bit so that you don't feel pressured to add value constantly.
In the same vein, i think it would help to be more transparent. People are quite capable of telling when emotion or enthusiasm is forced. You don't always have to be wowing at every aspect of the game and as viewers, we don't expect all games to be entertaining and definitely not all of the time during any given game. Speak what you feel, and I think you'll enjoy it more yourself and make it a better experience for your viewers.
Painuser has a very good knowledge, but he doesnt get the "im really enthusiastic now" part done as well as HD does. HD may lack a bit of gamesense whats going on and what strategies the players may have planed, but he gets the crowd (or at least me) excited which is an important fact to watch more then a single bo3 without gettin bored (i hate the "lets only talk about the game" thing if it goes on for every game.. except its day9.. but sigh who doesnt love this guy?!)
overall I really loved your casts! They are funny and entertaining i like both of your voices, which for a caster, is an important thing how your voices sound
Im looking forward to IPL4! =) keep up the awesome work, you are an awesome casting duo (my favourite if it comes down to just chill and watch some awesome sc2 games)
hope my english wasnt that bad,.. im no native english speaker so sorry for all bad grammar/spellings
HD just assume the role of the play by play guy with occasional color commentary and leave Painuser to do the actual analysis and prediction. also dont go on talking for too long... finish one or two thoughts and let painuser play off that.. instead of constantly following your train of thought without regard to your co-caster.
Personally, I felt like all 3 casting teams were great. I don't know why people are so critical of casters. Casting is EXTREMELY hard and I think people may jump to judge or make conclusions too quickly. Many will agree that Tasteless and Artosis are the best casting duo, Tasteless' great wit and social awareness mixed with Artosis' extensive game knowledge make for a great listening experience. In my opinion, HD and Painuser delivered a similar effect. I love HD's excitement and how he did not make any grammatical errors. Painuser may have more depth in his game analysis, which is NORMAL because Painuser is a progamer and HD is not. HD brings a lot of excitement to the games and I felt as if the two of you had great chemistry.
For example: in football (American), a caster/commentator is forced to point out the obvious dozens of times every game. This doesn't make them a bad caster, it's just their job. Not everyone has extensive game knowledge which is why it is important that both casters are not constantly analyzing the game in-depth. When I first played Starcraft, HD's youtube channel was a great place for me to visit daily to help me learn and develop as a player. I'm now a top 8 master and I started playing RTS just over a year ago.
I think the casting was great, the event set new standards, and I hope the sponsors were happy.
I enjoyed you guys at IPL and you made every game u casted enjoyable and i wouldnt critisise you, but Apollo and wheat made every game full of insight and epic enthusiasm. Apollo is really a fantastic caster. I dont really like Doa as he takes away some enjoyment of some games for me. Most is just personal preference and wouldnt know where to start with pointing things out to improve on. I like your casting but love apollo n wheat. RotterdaM and Bitter are pretty much my fave duo tho.
I felt like HD was trying too much to be analysis as well as play-by-play. Painuser is there to be the analysis guy, because he is a top player while HD is the color commentator. HD is definitely good at getting excited and he has a good voice, but a lot of the time he would say really obvious stuff to pass it off as analysis (saying like he needs to get siege tanks for banelings or they need to get more bases, etc.) or make wrong predictions. Overall though, I was pleased with HDUser and hope they cast more
well i really like painuser his calls are not completely ridiculous and knows a great deal about the game. he is one of my favorite casters. however i had to vote no as i really don't like HDs casting. when i first started playing the game i watched HD all the time but as i grew to know the game more and more, the less and less i liked HDs casting.
One needs to be the analyzer (of the builds and such) and neither you or painuser really filled that role. Pain did do it however when talking about a Terran match up but if its Pvz etc. it was really lacking. If i was you i would work on better interpretation of builds, (protoss specifically) like why is he doing this build on this map what could the zerg do to counter this, what is a weak point of this build.
On a positive note you have a great casting voice and generally good flow when talking (except when u get excited about stuff that fills like you are just filling in to increase excitement, we all love starcraft its really not needed until the big stuff happens) keep up the good work we all have areas that we need to improve on in our respective jobs or hobbies or w/e
personality: good chemistry: good entertainment: good
awareness: pretty bad analysis: lacking surprisingly much
i think you should try to talk to artosis or other great analysis casters, even progamers and ask them how to improve on this and then focus very much on it. maybe you should try talk to apollo, i talked to him the other day and he said he has been focusing on this exact part very much lately and i can tell, its working great for him
you did a good job overall but see it like this. the game is constantly evolving and the progamers has to practice so hard to keep up, now casters has to do the exactly same thing. even if you did a good job you need to improve to not fall behind the rest of the content people watch. you cant just as a caster sit and cast games to improve upon it, its like saying progamers practice by playing tournaments, which is somewhat ineffective. sit down alone in your room in silence and actually study everything thats going on in a replay/vod, from both perspectives.
understand the game, understand the timings and learn the builds to detail.
the reason why people actually love listening to idra casting is because he can see both players bases tell what builds they have and who is ahead and if a timing attack will kill them etc, he can do this because he knows how to identify a build, knows the timing of it and knows what it is supposed to counter and how to stop it/scout it.
seeing 4 rax and calling one player is gonna do some sort of bio aggression is not analysis, im not directing any of this to you but im just painting a picture of how actually complicated things are if you wanna do it perfectly
also as im reading through other peoples comments it just shows that what viewers actually want is very different from another. i read some guys dont want you to tell who is ahead and instead pretend its even all game long which i personally think is retarded, but hey thats his opinion and i have my own. i guess you just need to figure out what you want to be as a caster, on what level do you want to be on and what audience do you want to direct at, and from there you quickly will know what you need to improve and focus on
tree.hugger said everything i had in mind in a way more eloquent way then i would have, but i want to bring up my main points of criticism once more: - your game knowledge (of all three races) and/or knowledge of the scene is not what i expect of casters in your position, so many things you say are just wrong - often times you are way to biased towards one player and hype up everything he does + spend all the time in his base / over his army so that it is very hard to know what the other guy is doing. - i actually like how you bring your own flavor by using words like "brethren", but you are overdoing it. i don't want to hear a discussion whether we see a flock or gaggle or whatever of mutas ever again. in a game of sc2 so much is happening, don't waste your time with the same things over and over again.
another tip (maybe your are already doing this): you should watch to your own casts and a look critically for mistakes/things you don't like just like watching a replay. at the end of the day you can't please everybody, but if like yourself what you are doing it shouldn't be to bad.
I enjoy painuser's casting but HD i'm not a fan of. I like painuser because he analyzes the game so well by explaining the macro process in the background. He is about 5x more aware of whats going on than HD.
tree.hugger is really on the money with his criticisms. I think you guys should definitely consider his feedback.
One thing I want to add is that there are times when you two disagree on an analysis of a situation, which is not a bad thing on it's own, but sometimes the flow of the casting gets disrupted by the discussion. I think this is a consequence of two commentators both trying to do too much analysis. To be clear,I don't think there should be a strict play-by-play commentator and analyst role, because some dialogue is good. I think you could distinguish your roles a bit more, and the chemistry would be better.
I don't really like HD so I'll try to limit the bias as much as I can...
1- Caster duos needs to be natural. When they have the early game chatter, it needs to feel natural. Unfortunately this felt forced. I have noticed other casters were a lot more natural (Catspajamas & DOA comes to mind). If you can't do it naturally, find something else to do and if you can't, you shouldn't be casting together.
2- Game experience/knowledge. PainUser has it to some extent, HD doesn't. That alone isn't a big deal. However if you don't know something, don't talk about it. HD seems to have a lack of game knowledge and needs to keep to play-by-play until he covers up that lack of knowledge. There's nothing worse than calling something that's wrong and having your spectators predict it better than you. I've had a similar experience while watching hockey with Benoit Brunet. The guy was awful and kept doing a very poor job analyzing and calling stuff wrong. If you can't do it, don't do it.
3- Game flow and hype... I have to agree with 0neder on this one. This is something all casters needs to do so it's not so much of a HD/PainUser thing. You need to hype what's going on now instead of killing the game 10 minutes in when there's 15 minutes left. Also I have to point out to help 0neder with his argument the TSL3 finals. Hotbid purposely hid the production tabs at key points and kept us in the dark over some things. I remember that game on crossfire as being the biggest suspense game ever. Naniwa containing Thorzain and nearly breaking him until that 1 medivac shows up to help clean the contain. I almost had a heart attack, and this is a good thing. Casters should start doing this more.
Anyway, I'm sorry that's a bit harsher than I thought it would be. But the points are still valid, find a co-caster where you don't sound overly fake, learn about the game or stick to play-by-play and try and keep the suspense in a game alive until then end.
I personally am not a big fan of having the production tab open many parts of the game (I think it detracts a lot from the suspense of a match), but many people would not stand for not having that so I guess that's okay. But if you have the production tab, please try to pay attention to it.
I noticed many times that you guys don't pay attention to it at all or notice things too late (example: one Terminus game where Protoss was going two stargate right next to each other and it was frustrating to hear HD theorize for the longest time how 1 stargate pressure was going to work.)
Also, I think "all-in" is an overused term. Of course many casters do this so this is not specific to you guys but not every aggressive build is an "all-in."
My 2 cents even though its in tune with most of what has been said. I, like many others here also started with yours and Huskies casting.. and its understandable that once you understand a little bit more about the game you obviously want to move on to a more informed casting style.
Even though I stopped watching Huskies commentaries a while back.. I think his pairing with Day9 goes really well.. where both caster know exactly what their roles are and are comfortable doing it.
A lot of people have already said the play by play vs analysis dynamic.. and I totally agree with the fact that you should concentrate on the play by play more and leave the analysis to Painuser. And by play by play, i mean not digressing into random anecdotes. but aggressively following whats going on on the minimap, and the match.
Just react to the games more, know your players,their play styles, and dont get too stuck to any narrative.. leave the metagaming to Painuser.
Again, you do a far better job than I can ever do. And I wish you the best.. since I did start with SC2 with yours and huskies videos.
I think tree.hugger has said everything that was on my mind. There's absolutely nothing wrong with not knowing everything. So please stop pretending that you do and just be yourselves. If you & the viewers are not satisfied with that, then actually do your homework beforehand. I hope you take inspiration from Husky, who had faced similar criticism before he knuckled down and put in the effort to get better.
Just to add, it's also perfectly ok to disagree with each other during a cast. Good chemisty doesn't mean you guy have to get along all the time and blindly agree to everything the other person says. The only thing more annoying and obnoxious than listening to a guy being constantly off the mark, is if the other person stays quiet or just casually agrees to avoid confrontation.
I sincerely hope that I don't feel the need to mute the stream in your future casts.
Im not gonna harp on the knowledge of the game etc cuz alot of ppl previously have explained it quite good (morrow)....but in short it was really bad.
Broadcasting wise you need to stop doing rookie-mistakes Yelling/clapping/scratching etc. You have a mic, its sounds terrible to the audience. Focus more on the actual game/players. Try to find good timings when to talk and not talk (that usually grows over time but u guys have casted alot before if Im not mistaken). Listen to each other. Dont use alot of "uhh" and "aahhh" after every sentence etc
You have good chemistry try to harness it and you have a nice excitement to the game, the banter with the audience was nice but dont do it too much (try to talk to each other instead).... Thats my 2 cents.
one thing that really really confused me was: wasn't samsung your main sponsor? How come it was the one you made the very least advertising for? It appealed as if Visine had bought and gifted you both casinos, there were a lot of other sponsors and then there was Samsung that just supported you with 10 free monitors to give away. That was really messed up for me :|
Please Read This I believe it will help I watched IPL3 with 5 other friends, and we all came to the same conclusion about the 3 casting duo's casters
I like Painuser enough But there were many times we would cringe or shake our heads in response to your analysis/general comments.
You make so many calls that are wrong, and get way too excited over things that are irrelevant Since you have little meta game knowledge do not try to predict anything, because it usually ends up making you look bad
My advice - just do play by play, alerting Painuser to what is going on and make sure what you say is correct before you say it, and don't do that fake laugh nonsense Also, stick to the game, players and their teams - while Tasteosis can talk about silly things and make it work and be funny - you do not have that ability
With all that being said, I am glad you are trying and don't give up - you will do fine GL in improving
I think many people that watched many of the IPL qualifiers might agree that HD's casting was better at that point, at least the chemistry between the two casters was more natural. Possibly because they were both high all the time, possibly because they were more nervous at the live event.
I agree with everyone else that HD's analysis needs to improve but I know that the "casting reactor" has the potential for hilarity, they just need to grow more confidence for the live events, gl.
On October 11 2011 22:33 Zandar wrote: I watched you a lot in the early days before and during beta, but at a certain point I didn't like your casting anymore and I wasn't sure why, but in retrospect I think I know.
Eventually you changed from that enthousiastic kid nerd into that sales guy I get at the door that wants to sell me something I don't want. The original genuine enthusiasm started to sound fake, you started to dress in a suit, your smile became that McDonalds guy smile, your voice too slick. You got a commercial air around you like I'm doing anything for my youtube viewer count, I want your money.
People also mention the lack of knowledge compared to guys like Day9 and Artosis a lot, but this in itself is no issue at all, because I can watch DJWheat, Husky and Tasteless fine. But there is a difference, these last 3 don't give me the feeling they "sell" me stuff they don't know, pretending like they do, while you often give me that feeling you do.
These 2 things combined are your biggest issue I think. At least that's what made me stop believing what you say eventually and the main reason I stopped watching you.
And this can be fixed. Because you are still that masters league sc2 zerg nerd. And you do have the casting skills. Silly thing is that I do think your enthusiasm is genuine, but you somehow make it feel fake. I think you should try to be yourself more, be the genuine HD, try to get rid of the fake sales guy thingy and you'll be a lot better soon.
This 1000x! This is exactly how I felt and I couldn't put it into words.
I subscibed to HD in the beta and loved it. But now I remember you doing those give-a-ways, advertisements and then MLG/GSL started and I focused on that. You honestly looked more comfortable plugging Visine then you did when casting.
whoa whoa that's pretty heavy, I do totally get what you guys are saying. however I do have to defend HD on those points, we can see that HD is doing his best to be just more professional and is adopting some of these mannerisms from other professionals and may be rubbing you guys the wrong way.
At the same time it's clear that he does want to take it above the frat-boy level. As far as the "fake sales guy" thing, it's just a symptom of HD simply trying too hard, that's all it is, IMO.
I don't see a problem with the suit, the "pro" sounding radio voice. It's what is expected in order to make the jump from complete amateur to something that's actually credible. I don't know if HD attended any kind of broadcasting school or courses but I think he can definitely learn.
After reading all 17 pages of criticism thus far (as well as critiques from past threads such as Husky's), I'm quickly arriving at the conclusion that we, as a collective group of spectators, have no idea what we want in our commentary and probably won't ever agree on a model for the ideal caster.
I feel like PU and HD are going to have a hell of a time figuring out what to ignore and what to focus on when reading this thread. One post wants HD to focus on improving his analysis, the other post wants him to just be play-by-play. One post wants the pair to predict builds, the next advises against it. One post wants the production tab open, the next post wants it closed.
I'm not expecting a hive-minded response here, but the range of responses has been wider than the Grand Canyon, and can probably be best represented by taking a bell-curve and having a 500 lb man sit smack in the middle of it. Nonetheless, its fascinating to analyze.
The fact is we'll probably never agree on whether play-by-play is superior to in-depth analysis. We all agree that balance is key, but nobody can precisely articulate what that balance is, besides pointing at Tastosis.
There seems to be a consistent 50/50 polarization between people who want their casters to favor heavy build inference and prediction versus simply delivering the action in a smooth and exciting tone. Then, within the confines of the latter, people still can't agree on on what makes a good caster voice. I still see people crap on CatsPajamas and he has arguably the smoothest, most articulate voice out there.
I think it's important to try and weed out things that vary with personal taste from things that, if improved upon, will help anyone be a better caster.
So far, the things I think most people would agree on, without getting into the play-by-play/analysis/caster voice debate, are:
1) Better observing, minimap watching, and reacting overall.
2) Research of the player's backgrounds and previous games/wins.
3) HD could stand to up his game knowledge by understanding the subtle intricacies of build orders and timings which are paramount at high level play.
Note: If you're going to say something like "Sorry, HD clearly doesn't have enough game knowledge" Or, my favorite from this thread:
On October 11 2011 21:30 icjOo wrote: Hd dont know shit about the game, im diamond and i feel i know more than him.
You need to elaborate on that. Give a specific suggestion. What do you know more that he doesn't? What is he lacking?
5) Less corny jokes, or at least let them come more organically as a result of the chemistry rather than forcing them (that is, if this isn't already what happens). Humor isn't something you can force out, just let it ride and the humorous situations will come naturally (IE: Marine watching the factory burn down wishing he was a fireman).
6) Be a bit more accurate with regards to summarizing the state of the game. Oftentimes it seems one person is touted as being behind when they're actually in decent shape. If it looks close, an excellent way of remaining neutral yet still providing insight would be to do a quick summary of the supply numbers, workers killed, and current tech of both players. You can then let the viewer make their own conclusions from there. Also the act of summarizing those 3 things may jog your brain and help you to be more accurate in analysis.
7) Containing excitement for the proper moments. This is a tough one to master I think. TvZ seems like a great example of a matchup where it is easy to get massively excited when banelings are about to hit marines.
Many times we see the Terran have a gargantuan lead and the Zerg manages to get some big baneling hits. In many cases those hits, while insane to watch, ultimately aren't going to affect the outcome of the game when there are still 60 more marines+tanks pushing their way up another path on the map and the Zerg has exhausted his resources. The commentators get excited and the crowd starts smelling a comeback when the game still isn't even remotely close.
Recognizing the pivotal moments and saving your energy for them would be a great skill to master.
On October 11 2011 22:33 Zandar wrote: I watched you a lot in the early days before and during beta, but at a certain point I didn't like your casting anymore and I wasn't sure why, but in retrospect I think I know.
Eventually you changed from that enthousiastic kid nerd into that sales guy I get at the door that wants to sell me something I don't want. The original genuine enthusiasm started to sound fake, you started to dress in a suit, your smile became that McDonalds guy smile, your voice too slick. You got a commercial air around you like I'm doing anything for my youtube viewer count, I want your money.
People also mention the lack of knowledge compared to guys like Day9 and Artosis a lot, but this in itself is no issue at all, because I can watch DJWheat, Husky and Tasteless fine. But there is a difference, these last 3 don't give me the feeling they "sell" me stuff they don't know, pretending like they do, while you often give me that feeling you do.
These 2 things combined are your biggest issue I think. At least that's what made me stop believing what you say eventually and the main reason I stopped watching you.
And this can be fixed. Because you are still that masters league sc2 zerg nerd. And you do have the casting skills. Silly thing is that I do think your enthusiasm is genuine, but you somehow make it feel fake. I think you should try to be yourself more, be the genuine HD, try to get rid of the fake sales guy thingy and you'll be a lot better soon.
This 1000x! This is exactly how I felt and I couldn't put it into words.
I subscibed to HD in the beta and loved it. But now I remember you doing those give-a-ways, advertisements and then MLG/GSL started and I focused on that. You honestly looked more comfortable plugging Visine then you did when casting.
That ! all the words , I couldn't say so politely. so in short: fake. I couldn't stand you anymore, and unsubscribed long ago. everything sounds fake. is like "omg one ling is going to enter the base, omg omg, oh he enters!!!! he is going to mineral line! what is him gonna do, omg. ... ... oh he dies... hahaha, so... " really over excitement... makes me face palm, at same time you miss drops in the other base. i can stand TB and Apollo smiling, but not this. sorry.
It's gotten better but a few times in IPL3 you guys just make insanely inaccurate comments like "omg this MASSIVE protoss army will absolutely destroy that small bio force in an engagement" and I look to the top right and the terran is up 30 supply and we can even see via production tab the terran is ahead on upgrades. Stuff like that just makes the casting really unpleasant. Unsurprisingly, after said engagement the protoss army is nowhere to be seen and you guys are screaming at the top of your lungs at the incredible micro pulled off by the terran.
I think Painuser did all you could, i know HD is masters, so he should have great game sense (or at least above average) so please put that knowledge to good use and make an informative cast! One of you should be purely color commentary and the other should be talking analytically creating a good balance!
Don't particularly like Painuser as a commentator but you two made a really good team in the entire IPL3 season and would like to see/hear more of you two casting together.
Other casters sometimes do this but not nearly to the extent of you two. Stop being judges and just cast the game. I dont give a shit about what PainUser thinks that the players should have done in any given situation. Just cast the game and stop giving your two cents about every players every move.
You dont see this in any other game. "We'll if I were Gretzky I would have passed the puck back to the blueline, but for some reason Gretzky is deciding to pass to his left wing. I cannot understand this paly by gretzky, looks like a very unstandard decision by Gretzky"
Like Honestly. I want play by play, and possibly some insight on why they did what they did. But dont go on about how a player is making "rookie mistakes".
3 things basically are my criticisms and why I mute when HD is casting or just dont watch. For example I skipped all the casts of prelims up to IPL3 but watched HD + Painuser at IPL3 to see if he had gotten better and unfortunately not.
1) Consistently says inaccurate things to the point it takes me out of the game, mistakes happen but when its constant I can't take it.
2) Screaming during exciting moments (and this is my major complaint) because I have to babysit my volume control. Getting a little louder is fine and being excited is awesome but HD's volume when action is happening is SO much louder that I have to turn it down constantly then turn it back up after the action. Please for the love of god fix this, its a basic of any casting for any e/sport.
3) Making up pretend drama about the match when its obviously over. This is a minor one but it gets under my skin. When one guy is at 150 supply and the other is at 50 there is no need to say "he could come back from this" "hes still in this match" etc... its just silly.
I like painuser alot and I actually like HD's style of casting but the above 3 problems that HD has always had and not improved on over the months cause me to mute him or just plain skip the broadcast. Hope this is helpful in some way, I intentionally didn't include any thoughts on personal style or taste in casters but just the technical side that makes me reach for the mute button.
On October 12 2011 05:15 RoachyRoach wrote: I've been waiting for a thread like this.
Other casters sometimes do this but not nearly to the extent of you two. Stop being judges and just cast the game. I dont give a shit about what PainUser thinks that the players should have done in any given situation. Just cast the game and stop giving your two cents about every players every move.
You dont see this in any other game. "We'll if I were Gretzky I would have passed the puck back to the blueline, but for some reason Gretzky is deciding to pass to his left wing. I cannot understand this paly by gretzky, looks like a very unstandard decision by Gretzky"
Like Honestly. I want play by play, and possibly some insight on why they did what they did. But dont go on about how a player is making "rookie mistakes".
On October 12 2011 05:02 AzurewinD wrote: After reading all 17 pages of criticism thus far (as well as critiques from past threads such as Husky's), I'm quickly arriving at the conclusion that we, as a collective group of spectators, have no idea what we want in our commentary and probably won't ever agree on a model for the ideal caster.
I feel like PU and HD are going to have a hell of a time figuring out what to ignore and what to focus on when reading this thread. One post wants HD to focus on improving his analysis, the other post wants him to just be play-by-play. One post wants the pair to predict builds, the next advises against it. One post wants the production tab open, the next post wants it closed.
I'm not expecting a hive-minded response here, but the range of responses has been wider than the Grand Canyon, and can probably be best represented by taking a bell-curve and having a 500 lb man sit smack in the middle of it. Nonetheless, its fascinating to analyze.
The fact is we'll probably never agree on whether play-by-play is superior to in-depth analysis. We all agree that balance is key, but nobody can precisely articulate what that balance is, besides pointing at Tastosis.
There seems to be a consistent 50/50 polarization between people who want their casters to favor heavy build inference and prediction versus simply delivering the action in a smooth and exciting tone. Then, within the confines of the latter, people still can't agree on on what makes a good caster voice. I still see people crap on CatsPajamas and he has arguably the smoothest, most articulate voice out there.
I think it's important to try and weed out things that vary with personal taste from things that, if improved upon, will help anyone be a better caster.
So far, the things I think most people would agree on, without getting into the play-by-play/analysis/caster voice debate, are:
1) Better observing, minimap watching, and reacting overall.
2) Research of the player's backgrounds and previous games/wins.
3) HD could stand to up his game knowledge by understanding the subtle intricacies of build orders and timings which are paramount at high level play.
Note: If you're going to say something like "Sorry, HD clearly doesn't have enough game knowledge" Or, my favorite from this thread:
On October 11 2011 21:30 icjOo wrote: Hd dont know shit about the game, im diamond and i feel i know more than him.
You need to elaborate on that. Give a specific suggestion. What do you know more that he doesn't? What is he lacking?
5) Less corny jokes, or at least let them come more organically as a result of the chemistry rather than forcing them (that is, if this isn't already what happens). Humor isn't something you can force out, just let it ride and the humorous situations will come naturally (IE: Marine watching the factory burn down wishing he was a fireman).
6) Be a bit more accurate with regards to summarizing the state of the game. Oftentimes it seems one person is touted as being behind when they're actually in decent shape. If it looks close, an excellent way of remaining neutral yet still providing insight would be to do a quick summary of the supply numbers, workers killed, and current tech of both players. You can then let the viewer make their own conclusions from there. Also the act of summarizing those 3 things may jog your brain and help you to be more accurate in analysis.
7) Containing excitement for the proper moments. This is a tough one to master I think. TvZ seems like a great example of a matchup where it is easy to get massively excited when banelings are about to hit marines.
Many times we see the Terran have a gargantuan lead and the Zerg manages to get some big baneling hits. In many cases those hits, while insane to watch, ultimately aren't going to affect the outcome of the game when there are still 60 more marines+tanks pushing their way up another path on the map and the Zerg has exhausted his resources. The commentators get excited and the crowd starts smelling a comeback when the game still isn't even remotely close.
Recognizing the pivotal moments and saving your energy for them would be a great skill to master.
I disagree completely. It all comes down to know your shit or shut up, people are just advising in opposite directions on how to fix it.
I honestly feel all the casters who cast games in foreign tournaments have little to no knowledege of the game/players.husky,painuser,gretorp,djwheat,Hd.catspajamas and whoever else i forgot to mention excluding day9. Do you guys follow the korean scene at all? just wondering. Maybe it's Just me but im extremely picky on the casters.God I hate moeltrap and doa.
On October 11 2011 22:33 Zandar wrote: I watched you a lot in the early days before and during beta, but at a certain point I didn't like your casting anymore and I wasn't sure why, but in retrospect I think I know.
Eventually you changed from that enthousiastic kid nerd into that sales guy I get at the door that wants to sell me something I don't want. The original genuine enthusiasm started to sound fake, you started to dress in a suit, your smile became that McDonalds guy smile, your voice too slick. You got a commercial air around you like I'm doing anything for my youtube viewer count, I want your money.
People also mention the lack of knowledge compared to guys like Day9 and Artosis a lot, but this in itself is no issue at all, because I can watch DJWheat, Husky and Tasteless fine. But there is a difference, these last 3 don't give me the feeling they "sell" me stuff they don't know, pretending like they do, while you often give me that feeling you do.
These 2 things combined are your biggest issue I think. At least that's what made me stop believing what you say eventually and the main reason I stopped watching you.
And this can be fixed. Because you are still that masters league sc2 zerg nerd. And you do have the casting skills. Silly thing is that I do think your enthusiasm is genuine, but you somehow make it feel fake. I think you should try to be yourself more, be the genuine HD, try to get rid of the fake sales guy thingy and you'll be a lot better soon.
This 1000x! This is exactly how I felt and I couldn't put it into words.
I subscibed to HD in the beta and loved it. But now I remember you doing those give-a-ways, advertisements and then MLG/GSL started and I focused on that. You honestly looked more comfortable plugging Visine then you did when casting.
That ! all the words , I couldn't say so politely. so in short: fake. I couldn't stand you anymore, and unsubscribed long ago. everything sounds fake. is like "omg one ling is going to enter the base, omg omg, oh he enters!!!! he is going to mineral line! what is him gonna do, omg. ... ... oh he dies... hahaha, so... " really over excitement... makes me face palm, at same time you miss drops in the other base. i can stand TB and Apollo smiling, but not this. sorry.
This is a harsh personal criticism but I think it addresses a real issue that many people are voicing. And honestly, I think a lot (if not a majority) of casters do this so don't take it too hard.
Azure makes a very important point about giving effective advice that can make discussions of anything richer and healthier.
I generally like the combo. Its not perfect yet but i think you are getting better.
@Painuser: Your knowledge about Terran is great and i like that you give insight what you would do. It's viable because you know what it is like to play terran on a high level. I love your hyphe like "DID HE REALLY MISS THAT SUPPLY DEPOT" (on shakuras). It is (feels) very real. I would like to see more of that. (but don't force it) Sometimes you just say in a normal voice, "there is a drop".
@HD: i subscribed to you at the beginning of beta and watched every sigle video of you for like half a year. I did not stop because you are bad, i stopped because i started to watch players' streams and tournaments' streams. I think you heavily improved in that time. But i feel somewhere was a turning point. I am not sure what it was. It felt like you tried to be more like Husky which you are not and which is fine. Just try to be more yourself. Don't hype things you are not hyped about. And i have to agree that at some points you overhyped some things a bid and forced "jokes". Go back to your roots, be the solid, professional caster with the good voice. Don't give up.
On October 12 2011 05:11 PandaMonk wrote: I think Painuser did all you could, i know HD is masters, so he should have great game sense (or at least above average) so please put that knowledge to good use and make an informative cast! One of you should be purely color commentary and the other should be talking analytically creating a good balance!
Color commentary IS the analytical role. You're basically saying "one of you should be doing pure analysis and the other should be talking analytically."
There are two roles: Color commentary(analysis) and play-by-play.
I think HD and Painuser complement each other well, since HD is more of an enthusiastic funny caster and Painuser is more of an analytical caster. So if I were to make a suggestion for improvement, I would say focus on those roles. DON'T try to have Painuser be an enthusiastic funny shoutcaster while HD focuses on analysis or something, cuz that just doesn't work. Just work on complementing each other with the styles you're each good at, rather than trying to do things that just aren't your specialty. You wouldn't play starcraft like that, so don't cast like that either. Play with your style, not somebody else's.
On October 12 2011 05:02 AzurewinD wrote: After reading all 17 pages of criticism thus far (as well as critiques from past threads such as Husky's), I'm quickly arriving at the conclusion that we, as a collective group of spectators, have no idea what we want in our commentary and probably won't ever agree on a model for the ideal caster.
while you're definitely right in that in 17 pages you'll find 1,000 differing opinions, I must give a 1 word counter example; tastosis.
you'll find little if any hate for them even though everyone has differing opinions on what they want to see.
you can even list day9/XXX, almost any combo with day9 is well received whether its wheat, jp, dapollo, even day9/husky received a lot of praise at the last MLG.
some people have it and some people don't. I just don't feel this HD/PU combo has 'it'. That doesn't have to be a permanent branding either, I used to HATE husky but at the most recent MLG husky/day9 really won me over and I've been supporting husky ever since. If freaking husky can turn me from a hater to a fan, I'm sure HD/PU could do the same with some work.
On October 12 2011 05:02 AzurewinD wrote: After reading all 17 pages of criticism thus far (as well as critiques from past threads such as Husky's), I'm quickly arriving at the conclusion that we, as a collective group of spectators, have no idea what we want in our commentary and probably won't ever agree on a model for the ideal caster.
while you're definitely right in that in 17 pages you'll find 1,000 differing opinions, I must give a 1 word counter example; tastosis.
you'll find little if any hate for them even though everyone has differing opinions on what they want to see.
you can even list day9/XXX, almost any combo with day9 is well received whether its wheat, jp, dapollo, even day9/husky received a lot of praise at the last MLG.
some people have it and some people don't. I just don't feel this HD/PU combo has 'it'. That doesn't have to be a permanent branding either, I used to HATE husky but at the most recent MLG husky/day9 really won me over and I've been supporting husky ever since. If freaking husky can turn me from a hater to a fan, I'm sure HD/PU could do the same with some work.
On October 12 2011 05:02 AzurewinD wrote: The fact is we'll probably never agree on whether play-by-play is superior to in-depth analysis. We all agree that balance is key, but nobody can precisely articulate what that balance is, besides pointing at Tastosis.
Great job to both of you. You guys are starting to get right up there at quality casting with my favorite teams (Tastosis, K9).
You didn't do too much of this, but both of you should try and improve the conciseness of your points / analysis. Using fewer words to get the same point across = more win
Looking forward to hearing more from both of you in the future
I love both of you guys as a casting duo, you work really well together!
However, please for the love of god, and don't take this the wrong way, stop saying 'M&Ms' and 'blings'. It just does not sound professional at all, and it gets incredibly old. Especially considering how many of the games this tourney were TvZs.
Other than that (which might be nitpicking) I absolutely love both of your casting!
I love to see you guys casting, it's my best moment away from studying. It takes a while to get used to pretty much every caster out there I'm watching for the first few times. This was the case when I first watched yours and painuser'.
Of course there is always room for improvement, but I guess staying 100% genuine and true to form is the most important advice I can give - and what it all boils down to - because it shows when you are trying to fake something. E.g., fake enthusiasm or over analyzing stuff that is non-revevant.
HD you just need to improve, why it has taken you this long to get it I don't know. You need to work on your analysis more. You one of the better players casting-wise but how can you understanding of the game seem so weak? And your camera control is terrible, please be mind full of the spectator when you shake it around.
On October 12 2011 03:50 MorroW wrote: personality: good chemistry: good entertainment: good
awareness: pretty bad analysis: lacking surprisingly much
i think you should try to talk to artosis or other great analysis casters, even progamers and ask them how to improve on this and then focus very much on it. maybe you should try talk to apollo, i talked to him the other day and he said he has been focusing on this exact part very much lately and i can tell, its working great for him
you did a good job overall but see it like this. the game is constantly evolving and the progamers has to practice so hard to keep up, now casters has to do the exactly same thing. even if you did a good job you need to improve to not fall behind the rest of the content people watch. you cant just as a caster sit and cast games to improve upon it, its like saying progamers practice by playing tournaments, which is somewhat ineffective. sit down alone in your room in silence and actually study everything thats going on in a replay/vod, from both perspectives.
understand the game, understand the timings and learn the builds to detail.
the reason why people actually love listening to idra casting is because he can see both players bases tell what builds they have and who is ahead and if a timing attack will kill them etc, he can do this because he knows how to identify a build, knows the timing of it and knows what it is supposed to counter and how to stop it/scout it.
seeing 4 rax and calling one player is gonna do some sort of bio aggression is not analysis, im not directing any of this to you but im just painting a picture of how actually complicated things are if you wanna do it perfectly
also as im reading through other peoples comments it just shows that what viewers actually want is very different from another. i read some guys dont want you to tell who is ahead and instead pretend its even all game long which i personally think is retarded, but hey thats his opinion and i have my own. i guess you just need to figure out what you want to be as a caster, on what level do you want to be on and what audience do you want to direct at, and from there you quickly will know what you need to improve and focus on
I'm just quoting this because this is probably the most useful comment in here.
I like your casting better than almost all other casting teams, I can't really think of any genuine criticisms because I think people who talk as if you don't know the game somewhat decently are stupid. Your play by play is fine, your analysis is fine. Some of the jokes you make are kind of awkward, but I think they add more flavor to the cast anyway.
Really what I think most people are saying here is: Get a sense of the current game styles, and stay on top them, you are lacking them atm and should really push to learn it
I think we can all agree that HD was just flat out wrong a lot of the time, and his game knowledge and awareness was lacking. I mean, if he were playing SC2 with that level of awareness, he would be super easy to harass with drops since he missed pretty much all of them.
I couldn't care less about your personality, you can be whoever you like. But please have higher level knowledge of games and if you are the observer camera, please watch the goddamned minimap.
Practice like a progamer but instead of playing x amount of hours you should cast x amount of hours a day (2-3 min) solo if you can. Then just like a progamer would review a replay, watch your cast and see if your predictions or anything you said is on or off.
I think that would help. Also, watch GSL and big tournys to keep up with current builds and the metagame.
Kudos HD for starting this thread...takes a lot of courage to ask others for advice on self-improvement.
Long-time subscriber here to your channel and overall I liked the job you and HD did during IPL but there was room for improvement.
HD, you need to take some zen classes...sometimes less is more and often times I felt your humor and enthusiasm was forced and made me cringe. I liked you better back in the HDH days when you were more professional, even-keeled and all-in-all very good (you sounded like a professional announcer). For some strange reason this has changed over time and you've become more casual, loud, and even vulgar and obnoxious at times. I think part of the problem is your redbull habit you picked up...when you drink this stuff you turn into an annoying squirrel... You don't want to drink red-bull...it's nasty stuff that has been banned in multiple countries because of the combination of Glucuronolactone and B12 that does a number on your cardiovascular and nervous system. Even the US military stopped using this as a stimulate duing the 60's because it acted too much like a hallucinogenic drug.
My other gripe is that you seem to stray off a little too often. Understandable to a point...as with all commentators, staying on SC2 non-stop is not reasonable...but I think you've gone too far.
As far as the mistakes you and PU made...I think this is understandable. ALL casters make a LOT of mistakes (even Day9 who is supposed to be the 'smartest caster'...he can be the worst sometimes). A number of posters above me are really overstating your mistakes IMO. The key when you're making observations...it just to ensure that you are stating your opinion instead of declaring the laws of physics. eg 'In my opnion he really needs to get a third base right now to stay in the game' (good!) or 'If he doesn't get a third base by now, he will lose' (not so good!) The humble attitude is more important than being 100% correct.
PU...when I hear you cast, I don't feel like I'm learning anything new! (sorry) I don't know if it would help if you and HD did more background research on the player's tactics or if you both need to ladder more (I suspect you've both slacked off since casting). As a protoss player myself, I must say, that I feel that knowledge-wise this is both of your weakest areas (by far) and it may help quite a bit to off-race as toss because nothing will beat personal experience.
All in all, I want to end on a positive note and thought your casting was good (much better than DOA and Wheat...both of whom need more work than you and PU do).
PainUser is awesome maybe a bit terran bias but I can live with that. HD you need ALLOT of work it's hard to put a finger on it but I think is a mix of arrogance, lack of game knowledge, just throw shit out there and feeling really fake in your excitement as you get really exited over the most random shit. Also you need to look at the mini-map that's where all the shit is going down!
Edit: Oh! and the fucking camera controls! don't use the middle mouse button for observing. Casting 101 is to click on the mini-map, use arrow keys and follow units. the middle mouse give a very shaky view that dose not move smooth at all.
1) HD reminded me of swifty from warcraft. He makes a living on youtube and with razer but even I was a far better player and had a deeper understanding of the game, not that warcraft is comparable with the all encompassing universe known as starcraft.
2) Painuser seems a little stiff. His posture was a little too good/rigid, he didn't appear comfortable, but not many would be. Going from a small stream of just your gameplay to speaking in front of a large crowd for hours.
3) The clapping really annoyed me. Maybe it was just a personal issue, but I'm not used to that and didn't like it. It felt a bit awkward in addition to some awkward pauses.
The Posisitve
1) (first off this is what I like talking about) Painuser had exceptional game sense and awareness. I've watched his stream before and although he tends to get a bit whiny on that platform about other races in general, his slight terran bias just came hand in hand with his knowledge of the race. It was a good thing. We don't love political, awkward casters who can't put themselves out there.
2) There was a high level of energy! HD is used to this as it's the main draw for those on youtube looking for an energetic personality, and painuser did his best.
3) This is more of a ign/ipl thing than caster, but I really liked the interviews. I got to to see a lot of people behind the scene that don't get much attention, or do get attention and those who I wanted to hear from, but don't always get much face time because they got knocked out.
Overall the clapping into the mics/awkwardness aside I'd say you did a great job and I'd enjoy seeing you co'cast more events! Anything else would just be over nitpicking or giving you credit for pay you may not deserve so I'll leave it at that and wish you guys the best in the future.
On October 12 2011 03:50 MorroW wrote: personality: good chemistry: good entertainment: good
awareness: pretty bad analysis: lacking surprisingly much
i think you should try to talk to artosis or other great analysis casters, even progamers and ask them how to improve on this and then focus very much on it. maybe you should try talk to apollo, i talked to him the other day and he said he has been focusing on this exact part very much lately and i can tell, its working great for him
you did a good job overall but see it like this. the game is constantly evolving and the progamers has to practice so hard to keep up, now casters has to do the exactly same thing. even if you did a good job you need to improve to not fall behind the rest of the content people watch. you cant just as a caster sit and cast games to improve upon it, its like saying progamers practice by playing tournaments, which is somewhat ineffective. sit down alone in your room in silence and actually study everything thats going on in a replay/vod, from both perspectives.
understand the game, understand the timings and learn the builds to detail.
the reason why people actually love listening to idra casting is because he can see both players bases tell what builds they have and who is ahead and if a timing attack will kill them etc, he can do this because he knows how to identify a build, knows the timing of it and knows what it is supposed to counter and how to stop it/scout it.
seeing 4 rax and calling one player is gonna do some sort of bio aggression is not analysis, im not directing any of this to you but im just painting a picture of how actually complicated things are if you wanna do it perfectly
also as im reading through other peoples comments it just shows that what viewers actually want is very different from another. i read some guys dont want you to tell who is ahead and instead pretend its even all game long which i personally think is retarded, but hey thats his opinion and i have my own. i guess you just need to figure out what you want to be as a caster, on what level do you want to be on and what audience do you want to direct at, and from there you quickly will know what you need to improve and focus on
I'm just quoting this because this is probably the most useful comment in here.
Wow, yeah. It was a very good post, and by a pro no less. Thanks for quoting it.
First I'd like to applaud your moxie. Letting people say whatever you want about what you do for a living with no repercussions takes some stones. Now, with that said I voted no. I'm sorry, really, I actually like you as casters/the people you appear to be, but your actual IPL casting could have been far better, which is why I voted no.
In regard to over all game knowledge, Painuser has more. It doesn't seem to be a massive gap, though it is certainly easily noticed. Painuser also seems to have a bias towards Terran, I feel as though Catspajama's, the diamond Protoss player, has less bias for his race than Painuser does for his. Your chemistry/rapport isn't bad, but I feel this isn't THAT important for casting. Just be a good caster and you'll have good rapport with almost anyone you cast with. Look at Day9 or Artosis. They can sit down and cast with almost anyone, and still do a good job. That isn't to say that Artosis doesn't cast his best with Tasteless, and will cast just as well with a random caster, but you get the point.
Another thing that has been brought up in this thread that I agree with is awareness. I remember seeing shit happening on the mini-map that wasn't brought up or even talked about, though I cannot remember a highly detailed instance of this, it has been brought up quite a bit so I don't feel the need to dwell on this to much.
Though I won't pretend I got everything, I think you and PU will become very good casters due to your commitment to improving, if this thread is indicative of anything.
As an aside, I'd also like to address the HD commercial where he randomly asks the toll lady if she likes Starcraft. I died a little inside. It was quite awkward and strange. If a first time Starcraft viewer had seen that commercial, I think that would have just made them think that the game isn't full of cool, interesting people, but awkward try-hards and scared them off. Please be more aware of such things. The rest of the commercial was cool, though.
only problem i had with you guys the entire event was that whole "idra gg'd early!" thing after he lost all his broods and protoss was killing his 4th/5th (vs whitera i think), that was pretty dumb. besides that, painuser is a boss and you're getting better and better.
painuser annoy me most of the time... lol sometime he takes way too much time explainin 1 thing while the game keep going, i see hd trying to get back on the game but something painuser just keep explaining something we dont want him to explain.. well, i have to say that i only watched 3-4 games of you guys hd as always i found u were very good, one of my fav caster since the beta!
On October 12 2011 03:50 MorroW wrote: personality: good chemistry: good entertainment: good
awareness: pretty bad analysis: lacking surprisingly much
i think you should try to talk to artosis or other great analysis casters, even progamers and ask them how to improve on this and then focus very much on it. maybe you should try talk to apollo, i talked to him the other day and he said he has been focusing on this exact part very much lately and i can tell, its working great for him
you did a good job overall but see it like this. the game is constantly evolving and the progamers has to practice so hard to keep up, now casters has to do the exactly same thing. even if you did a good job you need to improve to not fall behind the rest of the content people watch. you cant just as a caster sit and cast games to improve upon it, its like saying progamers practice by playing tournaments, which is somewhat ineffective. sit down alone in your room in silence and actually study everything thats going on in a replay/vod, from both perspectives.
understand the game, understand the timings and learn the builds to detail.
the reason why people actually love listening to idra casting is because he can see both players bases tell what builds they have and who is ahead and if a timing attack will kill them etc, he can do this because he knows how to identify a build, knows the timing of it and knows what it is supposed to counter and how to stop it/scout it.
seeing 4 rax and calling one player is gonna do some sort of bio aggression is not analysis, im not directing any of this to you but im just painting a picture of how actually complicated things are if you wanna do it perfectly
also as im reading through other peoples comments it just shows that what viewers actually want is very different from another. i read some guys dont want you to tell who is ahead and instead pretend its even all game long which i personally think is retarded, but hey thats his opinion and i have my own. i guess you just need to figure out what you want to be as a caster, on what level do you want to be on and what audience do you want to direct at, and from there you quickly will know what you need to improve and focus on
Excellent post. Thank you so much for taking the time to comment!
Starcraft is my passion. If I want cheap entertainment, I'll watch a generic sitcom. When I'm indulging in my passion, I want a whole lot more!
HD, let me say first that i appreciate you creating this thread to try and improve your casting.
First of all, I just want to say that you brought me in to starcraft 2 on youtube so I have always appreciated your casting.
But now that I have a little bit more knowledge about how the game works I just wish that you could up on your game knowledge because I really enjoy your enthusiasm and humour and play by play commentary.
The IPL has gotten pretty good over the past few months. Congrats for getting it this far and making it better and better. Overall I think you guys are sounding more and more at ease with casting and it seems to flow more naturally. For example, I like a lot how HD toned down what sounded like insincere excitement. The enthusiasm feels/sounds more genuine recently.
For another suggestion along the lines of what tree hugger said (excellent post btw), I'll use the EG Master's Cup as an example. When we'd have Wheat and Idra team up to cast a few games, Wheat would focus on describing the action, whereas Idra would analyze and comment on the tactics and mechanics. I think the separate roles really worked for them and I wonder if that might help with you. I really enjoyed that set up.
This comment is not so much about casting, but it involved the casters. The camera control was inconsistent during the tournament and while I don't know who was controlling the camera when, it might be worth thinking about who does this. I remember the TSL had Hotbid, a non caster, do this.
Sometimes IPL casters will go "blah blah blah BUT" closely followed by "blah blah BUT". I find the use of "but" inappropriate. It sets up the way we should be thinking about how a game is unfolding. The "but" is used as a stalling tactic as you transition to explain what the other player is doing. It sounds superficial, but it really gets under my skin. Ultimately, I find that it doesn't contribute to the analysis, it uses terms that should. This is used more by catspajamas and to a lesser extent, painuser.
MorroW's post is also spot on (btw its a shame we haven't seen more of you in the past few months).
I'll be honest man, your casting rubs me the wrong way. Here's what I think it is:
You come off as very judgmental sometimes of what you're observing when obviously the people you're casting are better players than you are. For example, I often hear you say something like "I don't know what [player X] is doing here, and I can't say that I agree with this" in a very parental, condescending tone. If you're casting someone who is better than you are (which, let's be honest here, is most professional players), the default assumption should be that they know something you don't. When you do this, it annoys the people who know enough to be able to discern why they might be doing the thing you "don't agree with", and it also just misleads people who don't know any better than the person is screwing up. They might be doing something innovative and brilliant, but by the way you cast the play, the viewers are blinded to this possibility.
Why not instead say, "Wow, this is really unexpected. Normally we'd expect [X]. Let's see what this player has in store for us here and how it will work out." That sort of statement alerts your viewers to both possibilities: that they really just might be screwing up and doing something dumb, or they might be doing something brilliant. I think it's even okay to sound skeptical sometimes "Wow, I've never seen this work before, we'll see how it goes. . .", but the whole "I can't say I agree with this" line just isn't the right thing to say.
Even Artosis, who I think we can agree is an extremely knowledgeable caster, will often express his bewilderment and skepticism, but you can tell from the way he talks about it that he's open to the possibility that we might be seeing something new and brilliant. He thinks and knows that he's probably right about it being wrong, but he's often really good about coming off as "open" to it.
I think if you could somehow improve what I'm talking about here you would go MILES towards mitigating some of the negativity you find yourself in the receiving end of.
Hi HD, nice of you to give us a chance to provide constructive feedback.
I think both you and PainUser had a really big flaw, which was the lack of impartiality during the casts between Korean vs. Non-Korean.
As I've mentioned in the IPL3 Feedback thread, there we're certains points during your casts that came nothing sort of ridicolous. There was a point in game 2 between Stephano and TheSTC where you both went on and said "This is exactly what TheSTC needs to get back into this!" while he was in fact 40 supply ahead, with more SCVs and 3 orbitals worth of Mules. I believe this made many people facepalm. Having an impartial and professional posture is a most if E-Sports is to grow into even larger audience.
Besides that, you guys work well together. However, I would suggest that you develop into a more, if you will, "traditional" casting duo. What I mean by this is that you specialize either in play-by-play or game insight and commentary. HD, you have an enthusiasm that I really appreciate, and that is a "most" for any good play by play caster. So I sincerely suggest that you direct you casting in that way, while PainUser focus on game analysis and insight. This hope you don't take this as a disrespect towards you HD. It's just an opinion on how you can tune up better with each other.
if your going to be the obs you really have to pay more attention to the minimap i remember in the Trimaster vs Spanishwa game, you missed almost every huge counter-attack Spanishiwa did. otherwise keep it up!! good luck
HD, a few things you do that really drive me towards hitting the mute button: Calling banelings blings; calling marines and marauders m&m; assuming pro players are doing something wrong when their build goes over your head or they have noticed something you have not; Extreme forced excitement; saying you don't know who is winning when supplies are extremely skewed in one players favor (I'm not sure if this is because you are trying to keep it interesting or just never look at the supply); calling who will win a battle completely wrong and then trying to cover for it.
There is nothing wrong with genuine excitement (see Artosis casting Nestea anytime he plays) but when you sound like a care salesmen it becomes off-putting.
Also, be ok with not knowing something. When a battle occurs, instead of trying to tell us who is winning just give us a play by play of what is happening, highlighting interesting micro or positioning.
On obsing- I don't know who was doing it but sometimes the obsing was horrendous. If you want to see what good observing is take a look at some of the WCG Korea qualifiers. You want to avoid scrolling all over the place. The observer tells a story through framing shots just like a photographer. You will notice the Korean observer will usually select a shot, slightly correct the camera and then leave it still for a few seconds while often highlighting specific things on the screen. He will then move to another spot on the map and repeat. I know this is difficult to do while casting which is why having a third person obs is really essential for high production tournaments.
HD, My main problem is you seem to be severely lacking in terran and protoss understanding. In a game that didn't have a zerg player it felt like you didn't know what to say. And you (or whoever the obs was) was also missing a lot of counter attacks and drops. On the positive side, I liked your charisma and energy with painuser. I think the best way to improve your casting is just to play more.
@HD: "More Safer" is not the best choice of words in regard to a defensive positioning of units. I ♥ that you actively supported the sponsors, especially Visine. •◘• Be more careful with your wordplay and you should be fine.
HD, PainUser, I've watched enough of you guys casting as a team, and although, I found the djWheat and dApollo team a little bit more entertaining, I can tell you two have the best camaraderie as a team and it shows. As far as more knowledge that everyone seems to be concentrating on, I'm sure HD can improve on it as time goes by.
I am one of those guys that doesnt give a shit about how much the casters know about the game or if they make wrong calls as long as they are entertaining and i think you were so i'm happy with the casting hope to see you back at ipl4.
One of my only issues which is not specific to you guys is overestimation of damage. For instance if a couple zerglings run in to a mineral line there is a tendency to say they have caused a lot more damage than they actually have.
I personally enjoyed HD/Painuser. Painuser is a good analyst, while HD is good for play by play. The problem I think HD runs into is he is used to having to fill both roles for his solo casts on youtube, so he kinda infringes on the analyzing a bit too much, when his focus should be more play by play. Obviously if his game knowledge increased then the little infringes wouldnt be as big of a deal, but for now I think he should sick more strictly to his play by play role.
I enjoy HD/Painuser when things are actually happening. When things are going slow and the commentators actually have to make conversation with one another, sometimes not even Starcraft related, sometimes I get really annoyed by the immaturity and lack of wittiness that I get from Day9, djWHEAT, iNcontroL, Tastosis, I don't know if I'm spoiled, or right, or both. Regardless, that, paired with HDStarcraft's annoying girly voice inflections when he gets overly excited or speculates out of the realm of the game that is going on, it kind of turns me off from the cast.
Don't get me wrong, you guys know your stuff, I just think that you guys do not synergize very well when there isn't anything to talk about game-related.
HD, you and PainUser and CatsPajamas really gelled as a casting team this season IMO. Game knowledge and pet peeves aside, I feel like you guys are developing the cadence and projecting the camaraderie that make Tastosis so much fun to listen to. Well done guys.
I think that you (HD) and PainUser are a very great combo. Almost in every other sport there is a main caster backed up by a former pro who does more detailed analysis. (PainUser is not retired yet, but you get my point).
I think that the two of you match very well. You guys being friends off-stage definitely contributes to the synergy you have. Great job! The casts were entertaining, funny, and you guys provided analysis of what is happening and why as well.
I said yes because overall its o k but as you said you need a lil more knowledge of the game and its good that you already know that so you can improve! keep it up!
One thing you could do is not be afraid to talk over the other person when you notice something. The more the camera is jumping around to the action the better I dont care if it messes up the "smoothness" of your talking. And don't make the observer guess what you are talking about. if there is a drop going on and one person notices it that person should be like "9 o clock natural big drop!" in the middle of the other persons sentence.
I really like this casting duo's combined personality. But let's be clear: watch the minimap, comment on the minimap, pay attention to the minimap. That would make watching more enjoyable.
I watched your casts when I started playing SC2 and I liked your casting over Husky's machinegun talks. Husky only recently changed the his game and I found myself starting to accept his casting.
you have a calm voice plus very good energy in your casting and I am sure many here knows that; as a frequent MC for parties and weddings, I would like to share some views with you:
1. Focus on the game itself more. this is the key to the professional flavor. Player's background story, their previous game outcome and their personality/life style can be touched but never should be spend notable time for, during the game casting. too much talk about what the player did in yesterday's matches is not relevent and it provides no value to the current game and doesn't help when viewers watching your cast when off sync.
2. The cast is about the players and game. Better leave the stories such as your car, your sound card or your breakfast out of it. This was showing too much and nearly making me (really, it made me) start to avoid your cast lately, mainly in your solo casting on your own channel. During the 2v2 casting you show much less of it and I really like the shift, and I am sure you can do better in just complete cutting out those things and simply talk about whats going on on the screen.
3. Not everyone is after a textbook show. as much as we appreciate the knowledge and game insights, it is not mendatory to a good game cast. we watch the game casts because it is Entertainment. How many Soccor game casters predict the team strategies? and what would it make the Soccor game? knowledge is good but more importantly, it is about the PLAYER's decision. Caster's job is to control and promote the emotion flow for the views when they watch the game, so the viewing experience becomes more enjoyable. Of course, if you know more about the gameplay it helps a lot; but you can make the game cast totaly enjoyable even without much in-depth analysis. A caster's job is not there to tell people what is going to happen next. their job is to ensure we feel excited for gameplay when we should be!
4. Personal Bias is bad. we all have been there. Zerg. Idra. Korea. everything else. Being a professional, however, is about being fair. don't you think?
5. Humor is good but do not overstay the welcome. Good humor largely comes in from confidence and confidence comes in from knowing the scene; I felt you and PainUser could double cast games a bit more because at the moment I felt your flows do not connect from moment to moment. there is nothing worse than letting a talk went cold and none of you two steps in. that harmony between two casters come in as they work together more and more.
I understand Morrow's comments and where he came from, however I don't think it is caster's job to educate or train viewers. Those who has good knowledge but can not fluently speak their mind out shouldn't be casting games, right?
for example, I enjoy TotalBiscuit's casting because even though he doesn't offer much of a gamer view, but with good voice, good personality and he is fun to watch; I sometimes watch his casting eventhough I am not that interested in the match itself; I think Apollo and Tasteless are both overrated (no offence, dudes, just personal opinion) - can't talk. Choke way too much. There are other casters sitting in the middle; I have no doubt that they are important SC community members and should be recognised for what they do, however i just think they should not be casting. I am sure i am not alone here.
I really think you have a huge potential to become a caster of top level. Hope the points above help a bit. Thanks for reading.
HD need to stop yelling and screaming at some non-sense thing and take a moment and think about what's going on, then analyze it. You have a good voice, don't waste it.
You guys said someone was behind or ahead when the supply numbers and actual game situation suggested otherwise. Like someone else said, you probably want to review workers loss, income, supply and then maybe say something or not at all.
I'm surprised at the whole "bad analysis" comments because both HD and Painuser are likely far better at the game than anyone saying this. I can't really say either way (or care), but Painuser is hilariously terran biased however. I don't mind though cause I find it funny.
Compared to other casters, a little too much fluff. Too much obvious statements, spoken with an intonation of an amazing insight just arrived at.
Also, sometimes a bit too much hyperbole (this engagement was SICK, this player is THE BEST, this game is LEGENDARY). But I think this is a thing about American casters--they tend to do that a bit too much.
On October 12 2011 09:13 Snorkle wrote: HD, a few things you do that really drive me towards hitting the mute button: Calling banelings blings; calling marines and marauders m&m; assuming pro players are doing something wrong when their build goes over your head or they have noticed something you have not; Extreme forced excitement; saying you don't know who is winning when supplies are extremely skewed in one players favor (I'm not sure if this is because you are trying to keep it interesting or just never look at the supply); calling who will win a battle completely wrong and then trying to cover for it.
There is nothing wrong with genuine excitement (see Artosis casting Nestea anytime he plays) but when you sound like a care salesmen it becomes off-putting.
Also, be ok with not knowing something. When a battle occurs, instead of trying to tell us who is winning just give us a play by play of what is happening, highlighting interesting micro or positioning.
On obsing- I don't know who was doing it but sometimes the obsing was horrendous. If you want to see what good observing is take a look at some of the WCG Korea qualifiers. You want to avoid scrolling all over the place. The observer tells a story through framing shots just like a photographer. You will notice the Korean observer will usually select a shot, slightly correct the camera and then leave it still for a few seconds while often highlighting specific things on the screen. He will then move to another spot on the map and repeat. I know this is difficult to do while casting which is why having a third person obs is really essential for high production tournaments.
+1 on the WCG Korea qualifiers observing. It's not only that, I think all casters need a good understanding of the game (not necessarily execution) but need to know the timings, the builds, the counters etc. You then know what to look out for, and can provide deeper analysis. The WCG qualifiers and BW Korean commentating in general shows both excitement n in-depth analysis, from all casters (often all 3 of them). Many BW casters are former top-level players, who are genuinely excited to see how the game, builds, counters will turn out. Thus, it worth repeating that depth of knowledge is necessary to appreciate, and be genuinely excited in the small nuances (which can be pointed out) of how things will turn out.
How does this mesh w the preferred 1 play-by-play and 1 analytical caster? The Korean casters take turns calling the plays or one person does it and all three of them are very careful in not interrupting each other. They also feed on each others analysis, not so much arguing/debating/theory-crafting but building on each other's ideas/analysis. When a co-caster points something they did not recognize, they get excited just as the viewer would.
Bringing to the attention of the viewer, things they are not noticing (be it micro, army positioning, counter set-ups, expected transitions, ongoing transitions) w enthusiasm and excited anticipation is what makes a caster invaluable. When it comes to appreciating builds/transitions/counters, observation is key in laying out the story of what is happening @ various points in the game and not just focusing on battles and army movements solely.
Viewers will find games more epic when they can appreciate a brilliant, difficult to execute move/build/micro/etc. and the casters go a long way in providing and explaining this (which requires the ability to recognize it). The polar opposite is saying obvious elementary things which would cause face-palms among more experienced players.
On October 12 2011 03:50 MorroW wrote: personality: good chemistry: good entertainment: good
awareness: pretty bad analysis: lacking surprisingly much
i think you should try to talk to artosis or other great analysis casters, even progamers and ask them how to improve on this and then focus very much on it. maybe you should try talk to apollo, i talked to him the other day and he said he has been focusing on this exact part very much lately and i can tell, its working great for him
you did a good job overall but see it like this. the game is constantly evolving and the progamers has to practice so hard to keep up, now casters has to do the exactly same thing. even if you did a good job you need to improve to not fall behind the rest of the content people watch. you cant just as a caster sit and cast games to improve upon it, its like saying progamers practice by playing tournaments, which is somewhat ineffective. sit down alone in your room in silence and actually study everything thats going on in a replay/vod, from both perspectives.
understand the game, understand the timings and learn the builds to detail.
the reason why people actually love listening to idra casting is because he can see both players bases tell what builds they have and who is ahead and if a timing attack will kill them etc, he can do this because he knows how to identify a build, knows the timing of it and knows what it is supposed to counter and how to stop it/scout it.
seeing 4 rax and calling one player is gonna do some sort of bio aggression is not analysis, im not directing any of this to you but im just painting a picture of how actually complicated things are if you wanna do it perfectly
also as im reading through other peoples comments it just shows that what viewers actually want is very different from another. i read some guys dont want you to tell who is ahead and instead pretend its even all game long which i personally think is retarded, but hey thats his opinion and i have my own. i guess you just need to figure out what you want to be as a caster, on what level do you want to be on and what audience do you want to direct at, and from there you quickly will know what you need to improve and focus on
Morrow is right, if only a little too nice in his wording. I'll just say that his advice on picking a casting style and becoming the best at that is dead on. I'd also like to add a list of things HD should consider. This isn't sugar coated, and I will qualify this as someone who wants to see you be great for the overall benefit of ESPORTS.
HD should:
Stop 'whisper shouting'. Llisten to ANY CAST you have ever done and watch how you get excited and speak as if you are shouting, yet your volume reflects that of a kid who is afraid to wake his mom up for talking to loud.
Predict less. Your 'stutter step' prediction is painful. It isn't insightful or useful to say what will happen after or right as it happens. Someone else touched on this earlier, so I am only echoing the sentiment here.
Stop making definitive statements that are completely untrue. Share the cause and effect in a suggestive way. For example, "player X looks to be behind because of his failed worker harassment, let's see how this plays out and if that was a mistake or not". This same sentiment when voiced by HD would sound something like, "that was a total failure and he is sooo behind I don't know how anyone can come back ever. This is over." (2:30 into a 45 minute game)
False or otherwise hollow excitement is condescending and a massive turn off to viewers. Get excited when something matters. Honestly, there are so few yell worthy moments in a typical SC2 match that you ruin the best moments by having watered them down from earlier.
Learn what words mean, understand tense, and apply the principals of these. Too many mistakes made when trying to use an analogy to explain what could have otherwise just been said in simple terms. I can usually tell what you were trying to say, but the actual words are jumbled or just wrong. A not so nice example of this happened during my IPL3 watching. My wife (SC2 fan and sometimes player) asked me to mute the games because, "that whispering guy is painful to listen to".
I think a lot of this could be helped by simply slowing down, considering the moment, and taking control of your own words. If you feel like you are speaking in slow motion, you are probably doing way better that if you just spouted off crap without a filter.
First off, let me just say, don't think that I don't like you guys because I'm being negative, because you are pretty good. I'm just trying to help you improve .
Painuser has decent game knowledge but comes across as a bit of a balance whiner (obviously he plays Terran and TvP is his worst matchup, if not then just lol).
You are doing ok, but game knowledge could be better (this does apply to most casters though tbh). In particular I think you need to get excited when a player does something you haven't seen. Give the players the benefit of the doubt and get pumped up. Another good thing would be that when you don't really like what a player is doing, instead of saying you don't like it (and then being corrected by Painuser a lot of the time), ask your casting partner about it. It might be bad, but it might just be good in a way you are not aware of .
Just in general I think that you guys need to work on your chemistry a little bit (it's not bad, but it of course could be better). The other thing is GET MORE EXCITED. Both of you often say the right things but just no in a pumped-up enough way.
Again, not saying you do all this stuff badly all the time or that you guys suck (you don't, btw), I'm just saying that these are the things holding you back from teams like Tastosis or nowadays even K9 (that's Husky plus Day9 btw).
Your casting with Painuser has been a guilty pleasure of mine for a while now. Watched quite a few of the qualifiers when I was stuck at work and always enjoyed it. It might not be the most analytical or informative cast ever, but there was good chemistry and I enjoyed the passion and the humor you put into the cast.
Only thing that annoys me is Painuser saying 'mid' all the time, but I'll learn to live with that
FWIW, I love how much time is spent talking about irrelevant shit aside from the game. Obviously though this should be toned down in a huge event and is more acceptable on the daily-ish streams
your awesome HD and love your cast and I love painuser's analysis !!
i didnt follow IPL3 closely but i'd say that getting more information/background on players (% win ratios, more stats. etcc, ladder points , tournaments finishes) before the games start can always help hyping up the game
I like the chemistry between the two of you, you are definitely getting better at casting together and are alot less biased then both of you used to be, thanks for that. Sorry for complaining here but I have to agree it is irritating when you (hd) make bad judgments on how an engagement or game is going to go or when you say what you would have done (always muta ). As for painuser I think he makes a great contribution when it comes to commentating on a terrans perspective but I find it slightly annoying that neither of you convey how a protoss would approach a game, react or give their perspective on a map/matchup. Overall thanks for putting in all the effort and reducing the bias and good luck in your respective casting careers. HD <3 for your you tube channel for providing me with a wealth of SC2 content when i was a nub. Helped get me into the game, I will be forever grateful (though only slightly grateful )
The thing that stood out for me is when you guys were just plain wrong e.g. You mention one thing such as a tech building not started but production tab shows it nearly complete. I utterly hated some of your expressions. The moment I heard you say "M n M" instead of bio or marine marauder I muted the stream, this was also true for any IGN production I watched, I usually muted any game cast by HD. Frankly for the finals, I was listening to day9's opinions of the match on his stream, his stream and mine being like 15-30s out of sync and him only casually commentating still blew yours out of the water. PU seems to be pretty fine in commentating terran matchups but otherwise there times I just think to myself "yeah... no" whereas HD just seems to be lacking in technical analysis. Your obsing is fairly ok compared to tasteless GSL Open season 1. TSL3 really highlighted this, having a a separate observer is just great.
Please stop using the shorthand "bling" and "m&m" for baneling and marine & marauder. Not only is is sort of annoying and awkward to listen to (more the former than the later), it's confusing to newer users. I remember I had someone ask me if "lingbling" was some sort of nickname for upgraded zerglings.
Also, from #411
False or otherwise hollow excitement is condescending and a massive turn off to viewers. Get excited when something matters. Honestly, there are so few yell worthy moments in a typical SC2 match that you ruin the best moments by having watered them down from earlier.
I think a lot of other users before me have covered my grievances, but for the most part I think you two did ok.
HD, very much like your early cohort Husky, you need to tone your excitement level down and temper your style such that your audience gets a chance to get used to you. Not everyone can get away with such exuberance and it is a personality thing. It works for Day9 and Artosis partly because they are consistently casted and viewers know what to expect. Similary, it works for your YouTube channel because people know your style there. Unfortunately, however live casting doesn't translate directly from the online version. You need a certain comfort, flow and be able to feel the pulse of the audience and event.
Being 100% knowledgeable about the game isn't necessary either, but you do need to be safe in your calls. If you go out on limb it's OK but present it with a little doubt and an exit strategy. In many ways your style fits with one a my favorite Brood War casters - CholeraSC. His game knowledge wasn't immaculate but he had way of weaving interesting humor into his casts when he gaffed. Oh, here's just a random cast to see what I'm talking about
You also need to work on being independent as a caster and learn to develop a rapport with anyone you're partnered with. I do believe Pain User unintentionally throws you off because you react to his subtle and not so subtle biases in the game. In challenging him, consciously or otherwise, you lose your rhythm and not recommended since he's practiced and dogged in his arguments and relies upon his rep as a Pro to lend credibility to them. You do need to learn to defer to another caster but ensure that you don't give up what YOU have to offer.
As for PainUser, your bias and agenda is painfully apparent to those who don't share Terran as their favorite race. Not only is this inappropriate as a caster but it limits your insight into the nuances of the game. A universal perspective would afford you a greater audience in addition to expanding your game sense. But of course feeling victimized is your name. I'd adopt the Thorzain attitude. He's not afraid to joke about obvious advantages in his race and allows those who aren't rooting for Terran to appreciate him and his skill. It's obvious there's a clear advantage to pandering to 1/3rd of the community - you are guaranteed their support. The thing is you already have competition from the likes of CatsPajamas, DoA and Gretorp. And the more people become familiar with the graph below, the more you look out of touch with the state of SC2. Edit: I can only imagine what you will be saying when the meta-game shifts and Terran is no longer top dog.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
I completely disagree. I prefer the Progress Bar on because it lets me catch things faster than the observer does, and I feel like it doesn't hinder suspense or excitement at all.
EDIT: Wait, we're talking about the Production tab right? Just realized you called it a progress bar and I blindly copied it, lol.
HD, try not to sound like you're constantly constipated. (i'm referring to the .ehhhhh i dunnos that you always throw in)
You could probably fix that by just being more confident in what you're saying, which might require a bit more experience actually playing the game as all 3 races
I think you (HD) can directly convert the league you're in into your casting level. And my guess is you're bronze. 99% of your jokes aren't funny, you lack basic knowledge and make wrong calls all the time and I personally can't stand your accent (accent is very important to me when listening to someone).
I love the casts. Just as a critique, i agree you guys prematurely get excited. Don't focus so much on making a scene, if u are, and just let the action happen. If games aren't explosive, it's still a great cast with good strategy discussion and banter.
On October 15 2011 01:16 decaf wrote: I think you (HD) can directly convert the league you're in into your casting level. And my guess is you're bronze. 99% of your jokes aren't funny, you lack basic knowledge and make wrong calls all the time and I personally can't stand your accent (accent is very important to me when listening to someone).
Well tbh you are just coming off as a douchebag. HD is masters and his accent is the same as most other American casters.
I think Painusers game knowledge is great for his casting career. However, when he casts with CatsPajamas, i constantly feel as if painuser is trying to compete with him during casts. It adds an unpleasant feel to the cast.
On October 15 2011 01:16 decaf wrote: I think you (HD) can directly convert the league you're in into your casting level. And my guess is you're bronze. 99% of your jokes aren't funny, you lack basic knowledge and make wrong calls all the time and I personally can't stand your accent (accent is very important to me when listening to someone).
Great feedback Sir, i'm sure HD is willing to change his accent, perhaps even loose his sense of humour.
As for the first line you wrote, trying to say "I wish you'd spend more time looking into the different pro strategies in the different match ups", he already stated he's trying to put more time into reading and watching more high level play to understand the strategies, aswell as playing on the ladder to learn the odd common ones he doesn't know (I believe HD is masters? But he might be Diamond now, as he was inactive for a long time).
As for me, if I had to criticism anything, it'd be as mentioned above, to improve HD's knowledge strategies, but since he already said he's looking into that i'll have to say... Keep up the good work! I'm loving the casting reactor!
ever since you departed with husky, i feel like you've been struggling to change yourself so that your more entertaining. in my honest opinion you should stick to yourself and do analysis based casting and find a cocaster who can fill in that role for you. (i havent watched painuser much so i cant tell).
The feeling I get from HD is that he lacks wit and convincing enthusiasm to be an enjoyable caster for live events. The way he leads in into asking for cheers from the crowd is often awkward instead of fluid, witty and genuine looking. I hope he works on that. His game knowledge is lacking but I feel like he should focus on being a good caster for play-by-play because he has a good voice and there is a co-caster for a reason. He should take a role he can do well and play it.
You're both very likable. I've always enjoyed your casts but sometimes your jokes, HD in particular, can be a little uncomfortable to sit though But that may be part of the charm, I don't know.
HD: you have really good analysis in ZvX matchups. I really think you need to maybe ladder or study some games as the other 2 races to diversify your knowledge. Your understanding of zerg is great but I really think if you want to elevate your casting you should learn T and P.
Hey i dont know if you (HD and PU) still reading this thread, but i wanted to say one more additional thing to mr. HD i had very harsh critizsm but here is an advice... get in contact with husky and ask him how he managed to get better so fast...i very disliked husky since beta, because he was not good at the same things you are, but since the last 2 MLG (including ongoing orlando) he improved so greatly and i dont know how. he really impresses me now and you clearly can see how he tried hard to improve. if you take the same way he did, you can be in good shape too.....
What I don't like about your casting HD, isn't that you lack knowledge, a lot of casters do and do fine, it's that you don't seem to realize it. You kind of make things up, or make impulsive statements that aren't really based on anything... It's like you're not playing the role you're cut out for. Especially alongside Painuser who does have an excellent understanding. Now, if you were to keep working on your game knowledge and get it up to a level where you can make some of your statements correct, then you'd be a great caster. Keep it up, you're doing the right things to improve.
edit: and seriously guys, this isn't the "tell HD that he sucks" thread... this is a thread where you leave constructive feedback to help someone improve. Giving him advice will ultimately improve YOUR viewing experience.
I would definitely say that I enjoyed your casting. Though I didn't really like painuser at first, your casting duo grew on me, and you're really awesome now
Read my sig. You are the worst god damn caster ever. I cant stand watching you cast. Most of what you say is nothing more than what the audience can figure out for them selves and you miss many many many many many different points in any match. You mention nothing of timing, unit comp, response to certain builds from the other player, you miss when expansions go up. You are just terrible. Painuser does a much better job than you but with you in there, its easy to be turned off even at such a big big event. Get better game knowledge or just stop casting because its frustrating that you are being invited to these events.
You and Husky are what got me into SC2, looking for "starcraft videos in HD" on Youtube and finding your VODs. While I'll always be somewhat thankful for that (goodbye other hobbies), I can't help but feel that you've never really developed as a caster, that you're still in a similar place you were in back then, while most of your audience (except maybe the super casual) have long since moved on. Even Husky has become knowledgeable to a good degree, while you, in all honesty, seem more akin to TotalBiscuit as a play-by-play caster with little game knowledge, except that he does a better job at that.
Maybe you just need to find a way to get actually hyped about the game, so your excitement seems less, well, fake. Or take a break from casting to really work on your skill. Try to get into high masters as a random player, watch replays without talking, just to check the flow of the game. Whatever you do, I feel like something's gotta change.
On October 16 2011 15:42 ContactKilla wrote: Read my sig. You are the worst god damn caster ever. I cant stand watching you cast. Most of what you say is nothing more than what the audience can figure out for them selves and you miss many many many many many different points in any match. You mention nothing of timing, unit comp, response to certain builds from the other player, you miss when expansions go up. You are just terrible. Painuser does a much better job than you but with you in there, its easy to be turned off even at such a big big event. Get better game knowledge or just stop casting because its frustrating that you are being invited to these events.
When I read this, I imagined this guy frothing in the mouth as he was typing his heart out passionately about his hatred towards HD, LOL. Some people spend way too much time on this game...
You guys did pretty well in IPL, less of the Tastetosis banter though during important parts would be nice, I'd like to hear more focus on the games and particularly some better insight on Zerg and Terran perspective since those are your races (right?) as the games progress. Keep up the good work you guys.
Less predictions and telling people the outcome is likely already decided. More excitement, promotion of uncertainty, play-by-play, with description of general strategies and what the player might be thinking. Turn off progress bars please.
Currently watching IPL with HD and Painuser casting. May be a rebroadcast - not sure. just wanted you guys to know that the ColMvP player Goswser isn't pronounced 'Goswer' (nor is it spelled that way -.-) It's pronounced GOSU USER! thanks! fuck! <3
Painuser has had great casting but HD you need more work. You constantly miss stuff and are just talking about things that the audience can figure out on their own. I've noticed you get corrected a lot by Painuser also. Overall though I like you casting duo. You guys have great chemistry!
I don't know if this fits in your overall plan, but I think you guys should cast a bit less. You cast a LOT of games, and it shows. I see you guys casting completely exhausted very often trying to pretend that you are still interested on what is going on in the game. It's not enjoyable to see a game casted by a couple of guys that need a break badly (unless its the finals of an important tournament). Also, regardless of your quality as caster, if people see too much of you, they will get sick of you. One reason I still enjoy the top casters is that I look forward to their next cast (sometimes I have to wait weeks). With you guys it just feels like you are on all the time, so it is easier to stop being excited about your work.
watching the team league thing right now and god you guys are annoying. first, HD, stop making stuff up. Second, please focus on the game, no one wants to hear your senseless ramblings. I usually don't mind casters much but I actually ahd to mute it.
PainUser's casting is actually great, he knows what he is talking about and usually makes good calls and is correct almost all of the time. HD, you need to work on your game sense and knowledge. A lot of the time you will call out that the game is over for one player when actually the complete opposite is true (see Sheth vs Ryze I believe from the IPL team league? it was a game played on Shakuras it might not have been Ryze but Goswer instead). Overall, the duo is average at best, but would actually be way above average if HD stepped up his game.
I love your casting. You might not always get the buildorder down, but the banter is hillarious and at least half the reason I started watching SC2 casts. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really care too much about whether casters are technically proficient; I'll figure out what's going on eventually. You guys make me laugh while watching interesting games.
I actually just made an account to say I'm really sad you guys won't be casting much for the next month or so.
more focus on the improtance of what the players scout, and the decisions that are falling out of what they scout would be nice.
for example, say it is against a Z. you can talk about how seeing a gas opener vs a no-gas opener will affect the decision tree for the oponent, and the implications of what they see (such as if you see them take drones off gas at 100)
HD in all honesty you aren't even that bad dude, don't worry about all those rude peeps. Your overall game sense and knowledge is good enough and still improving but your banter during the game seems like it makes it hard for you to pay full attention to the game and so you miss things! Other than that keep up the good work.
if anyone here ever watched the PTSL season 2 final day VODs, they'd agree Painuser / HD are terrible casters o_O Showing up late / being drunk and so much more but can't remember. Since then I refuse to believe that anything you do 1v1 is anything little more than an act and you actually don't care about pro level SC2 despite your "professionalism"
On February 03 2012 12:30 askTeivospy wrote: if anyone here ever watched the PTSL season 2 final day VODs, they'd agree Painuser / HD are terrible casters o_O Showing up late / being drunk and so much more but can't remember. Since then I refuse to believe that anything you do 1v1 is anything little more than an act and you actually don't care about pro level SC2 despite your "professionalism"
I remember that, thought it was kinda unprofessional...especially since these guys haven been in front of Google and other companies talking about the game. Gotta really be professional.
HD, I just wish you knew more about the players. You seem to be somewhat ignorant when it comes to facts about the players.
Just for one example, saying that IdrA doesn't ladder much. He was rank 1 GM in NA for quite a while, and even stated that that was his usual form of practice.
HD and Painuser should really have their own show. You guys have great chemistry together, and I would hate for that natural synergy to go to waste. I remember HD and Painuser doing random ladder games where they would do the most ridiculous cheeses during the HD World Invite as spoilers.
I can see it now: IPL proudly presents: Cheese'd, with HD and Painuser. Watch HD and Painuser cheese and pull other crazy shenanigans on unsuspecting players on ladder.
watching IPL team arena last night was just... bad. i'm not trying to sound rude or anything, but honestly could you talk about the game once in a while?
after one break, we came back from the ads and listened to you and painuser talking about ghostbusters and just all kinds of random nonsense for _OVER 5 MINUTES_.... Literally NOTHING was said about the upcoming players or the matchup on what map or ANYTHING at all. I found this disturbing to believe that IPL finds this of the quality of content that they want their name branded on... and i'm surprised this is being allowed to continue.
anyone else that was watching IPL team arena last night that was in the chat will also contest that this was easily one of the worst casts they've ever seen. the total lack of actual game related talk was downright upsetting.
You BOTH need to start focusing on actually watching the game and talking about the game rather then trying to be stand-up comedians, because trust me... you guys aren't funny. I almost killed myself the 50th time I heard the "commendation of X" joke within a 2 hour span.
The thing is, you guys aren't bad casters. It just seems like when you two get together you'd rather chit-chat about random nonsense then talk about the game, players, and current happenings.
Overall, I'd give you guys a rating of 3/10... TONS of room for improvement.
EDIT:
I'd just like to reiterate the fact that last nights cast was so terrible, there are more and more people coming here and going out of their way to point out how bad it was. I pretty much agree with ALL of this guys points:
On February 03 2012 13:03 joshie0808 wrote: HD been a fan of you since the beta. Painuser, been a fan of you since finding your youtube channel (shortly after game got released) and watching your FPVODs and analysis.
HOWEVER. Last night, IPL Team League, Teamliquid vs ColMVP - My impression of you guys as casters went from above average positive to wtf happened?
Painuser: Please dont yell the word "RETARDED" on air. HD: Painuser throws you many lines that you dont seem to catch.. work on your chemistry ppls.
Both of you: 1. You're HIRED. You're PAID. You're professionals!! Know your own map pool! (Calm before the storm). Thats like hockey/sports caster not knowing the name of the city the team's are from. Don't spend 10minutes talking about swatsikas (and other unrelated stuff) and 2 minutes on the actual game. I watch starcraft to also learn/hear/be entertained ABOUT starcraft. 2. Don't make weird calls by saying that Sheth should send his lings in (ZvZ vs ColRyze) when he obviously wants them for banelings (baneling nest 90% complete). I dont even main zerg and i can tell his intentions. There's a reason ppl say "go watch Day9 to learn" and "only watch <insert names> for fun. Its because many ppl make the wrong calls and then newbie players learn to make the wrong decisions. Painuser I expect better from you seen as you were once a high NA player. 3. Watch the minimap! Seriously, im only in diamond and i see so much stuff going on that you guys miss. Drops, flanks etc. 4. Know the players and the scene! You should be ashamed for calling Goswer "Gauss-u-err" and send him an apology! Thats like media/celebrity specialists on MTV calling a celeb by the wrong name. Its GosU User! UU = W. 5. Keep up with the scene! Teamliquid didnt "only recently" acquire Zenio, that was back in late 2011! I get that some ppl won't follow the scene so closely, but you can say "for those of you that dont know, Zenio was transferred to TL 3 months ago" rather than "HEY! New acquisition by liquid!". 6. Dont wonder why someone lost a battle. Its obvious you weren't paying attention earlier because of your random banter and didnt see that one side is way ahead in upgrades 7. If you DONT know the map pool or the map, and then you compare calm before the storm to crevasse, and say that its "a better version of crevasse", at LEAST talk about the differences! Lack of rocked paths means available counter attack routes. One tower in mid (instead of 4) means side paths arent watched. In base nat has double gas. Etc.
What you did good: 1. Being light hearted and chill and having energy at the right moments
Pleaseee FOCUS what your good at into improving the above points!
To the both of you, here's how I view you two casting (what little I've seen)
- Miss alot of important things during games (upgrades being one. Why do you act shocked when a 2-2 players wins an engagement with a lesser army vs a 0-2 player? It's obvious, you didn't pay attention) - Stupid goofing off amongst themselves during periods with low action in the game that makes them seem rather unprofessional and childish instead of talking about something related to the game, or heck, even the players in the game.
I don't care about indepth gameknowledge or a caster telling me why a player is doing a certain build or possible counterbuilds, but I do care about casters not sticking to the game or even paying attention to the game.
Right now I'll rather watch the games muted with music in the background. I get just as much information about what is going on from watching the productiontab (if not more, considering listening to you can be distracting) as I do from listening to you.
HD been a fan of you since the beta. Painuser, been a fan of you since finding your youtube channel (shortly after game got released) and watching your FPVODs and analysis.
HOWEVER. Last night, IPL Team League, Teamliquid vs ColMVP - My impression of you guys as casters went from above average positive to wtf happened?
Painuser: Please dont yell the word "RETARDED" on air. HD: Painuser throws you many lines that you dont seem to catch.. work on your chemistry ppls.
Both of you: 1. You're HIRED. You're PAID. You're professionals!! Know your own map pool! (Calm before the storm). Thats like hockey/sports caster not knowing the name of the city the team's are from. Don't spend 10minutes talking about swatsikas (and other unrelated stuff) and 2 minutes on the actual game. I watch starcraft to also learn/hear/be entertained ABOUT starcraft. 2. Don't make weird calls by saying that Sheth should send his lings in (ZvZ vs ColRyze) when he obviously wants them for banelings (baneling nest 90% complete). I dont even main zerg and i can tell his intentions. There's a reason ppl say "go watch Day9 to learn" and "only watch <insert names> for fun. Its because many ppl make the wrong calls and then newbie players learn to make the wrong decisions. Painuser I expect better from you seen as you were once a high NA player. 3. Watch the minimap! Seriously, im only in diamond and i see so much stuff going on that you guys miss. Drops, flanks etc. 4. Know the players and the scene! You should be ashamed for calling Goswer "Gauss-u-err" and send him an apology! Thats like media/celebrity specialists on MTV calling a celeb by the wrong name. Its GosU User! UU = W. 5. Keep up with the scene! Teamliquid didnt "only recently" acquire Zenio, that was back in late 2011! I get that some ppl won't follow the scene so closely, but you can say "for those of you that dont know, Zenio was transferred to TL 3 months ago" rather than "HEY! New acquisition by liquid!". 6. Dont wonder why someone lost a battle. Its obvious you weren't paying attention earlier because of your random banter and didnt see that one side is way ahead in upgrades 7. If you DONT know the map pool or the map, and then you compare calm before the storm to crevasse, and say that its "a better version of crevasse", at LEAST talk about the differences! Lack of rocked paths means available counter attack routes. One tower in mid (instead of 4) means side paths arent watched. In base nat has double gas. Etc.
What you did good: 1. Being light hearted and chill and having energy at the right moments
Pleaseee FOCUS what your good at into improving the above points!
On February 03 2012 13:03 joshie0808 wrote: Both of you: Don't make weird calls by saying that Sheth should send his lings in when he obviously wants them for banelings (baneling nest 90% complete). I dont even main zerg and i can tell his intentions.
Yeah, that thing pissed me off so much. I'm not sure who said it but I heard "He pretty much HAS TO DO damage with these lings because he did a 10pool" or something like that.
Look, I'm a casual platinum player and I was sitting there saying "WTF?" to that call. It was that retarded.
Sorry if off topic but it has come up a cpl times. How did you guys find out the W = UU? That isnt very intuitive. I wouldnt have assumed thats how his name is said.
On February 03 2012 13:11 CounterOrder wrote: Sorry if off topic but it has come up a cpl times. How did you guys find out the W = UU? That isnt very intuitive. I wouldnt have assumed thats how his name is said.
Watching other casters pronounce his name correctly lol. Yah its not really intuitive but you'd think if they were gonna cast a particular team they'd at least know the player roster and their proper handle.
Like Husky doesnt call MMA "Maveangeace" even tho thats his NA account. He went and did the research to find the actual player's name. I'd expect the same quality from IPL.
honesty i cant stand HD casting i just think its so so so bad... i believe painuser can be put with any of the other casters and do fairly well but HD has no hope how he casts is just terrible thinks his funny makes bad jokes.. not trying to be rude or anything but HD your just bad cant even watch ipl when this guy is on
Gotta agree with joshie0808. Dunno when the last time HD and PainUser casted together but their chemistry was way off for the TL vs. coLMVP tac match. While it was nice to see someone other than Catspajamas and Doa (though I'm fans of both!), this was painful to watch. Though honestly I gotta lay most of this at PainUser's feet. He didn't seem like he wanted to be there. He seemed, to me, to not care in the latest about the games or the casts. Not only were his calls off but he seemed to be quite argumentative. I don't post in these sort of threads, but I hope that the two casters in question will read the two pages of new posts and put some thought into improving. This combo was the awesome last season (I don't mean the chain TAC seasons, I mean the "IPL3 season") but if this is to be expected, I doubt I'll watch anymore IPL stuff until the live event.
On February 03 2012 13:16 naux wrote: honesty i cant stand HD casting i just think its so so so bad... i believe painuser can be put with any of the other casters and do fairly well but HD has no hope how he casts is just terrible thinks his funny makes bad jokes.. not trying to be rude or anything but HD your just bad cant even watch ipl when this guy is on
have you seen catspajamas cast yet? hd/painuser seem like tastosis in comparison
Overall I like the two of you team casting. My one complaint is there is too much competitive banter between the two of you. I realize most of it is play and sarcasm, but after a while it takes away more than it adds. Caster teams that are polite to eachother and help cover blunders rather than point them out cast more smoothly and overall have more depth.
1)Focus more on the game there were tons of rambling that was happening when things ingame were happening that we wanted to hear about.
2)Know the players names Gosu User (not Goswser) and the maps Calm before the Storm
3)If your going to open a diffrent tab on the UI to make a point please always reset it back to the production tab after your done there were long points in time with out the production tab when the Observer was off looking it something else and we had no idea what kind of builds were happening.
4)In the game where Sheth 10 pooled you missed the baneling nest by a MILE and miss called the entire game until you saw the actual banelings morphing PLEASE be more aware of the game state.
On February 03 2012 13:16 naux wrote: honesty i cant stand HD casting i just think its so so so bad... i believe painuser can be put with any of the other casters and do fairly well but HD has no hope how he casts is just terrible thinks his funny makes bad jokes.. not trying to be rude or anything but HD your just bad cant even watch ipl when this guy is on
have you seen catspajamas cast yet? hd/painuser seem like tastosis in comparison
you are comparing hd painuser to tastosis? are we both hearing the same thing? i can easily watch tastosis without any complaints about there casting and i actually laugh when they make jokes. but hd just tries to hard like SO hard that i cant even watch any time they cast its just a gongshow .. at least i am not the only one that thinks there casting is below average i actually like painusers casting when he casts with other commentators but hd i just cant stand him.. loll and yes i have seen catspajamas and i think his doing fairly well i like any other caster besides hd and that should mean something..
On February 03 2012 13:16 naux wrote: honesty i cant stand HD casting i just think its so so so bad... i believe painuser can be put with any of the other casters and do fairly well but HD has no hope how he casts is just terrible thinks his funny makes bad jokes.. not trying to be rude or anything but HD your just bad cant even watch ipl when this guy is on
have you seen catspajamas cast yet? hd/painuser seem like tastosis in comparison
you are comparing hd painuser to tastosis? are we both hearing the same thing? i can easily watch tastosis without any complaints about there casting and i actually laugh when they make jokes. but hd just tries to hard like SO hard that i cant even watch any time they cast its just a gongshow .. at least i am not the only one that thinks there casting is below average i actually like painusers casting when he casts with other commentators but hd i just cant stand him.. loll and yes i have seen catspajamas and i think his doing fairly well i like any other caster besides hd and that should mean something..
Yeah I had to remove HD from my subs on youtube when it got to the point where I just muted audio on his vids lol. Way too much build up to something where he is screaming about it into the mic then nothing happens, totally wrong calls, no game sense sometimes, and too much random stuff during the casts.
I really have been enjoying the other 2 casters lately though.
Calm Before the Storm was used all Blizzard Cup and GSL November and in your own tournament. It's embarrassing that you're presenting yourselves as professionals but aren't bothered enough to keep up to date, with even your own tournament although any caster who is paid to cast should be following the GSL religiously anyway.
We're not asking much by wanting your to know your own map pool.
When I watch Premier League football I would expect the commentators to have watched the World Cup and I would expect them to know who the players are.
HD especially seems to do absolutely no research at all into the players playing. Especially if a player is Korean and not a massive name he knows nothing about him, when regularly they are Code S players (eg. Keen, Oz)
This is your job, do some research. I wouldn't turn up to my job completely unprepared and lacking the skills and just bungle my way through.
On February 03 2012 13:16 naux wrote: honesty i cant stand HD casting i just think its so so so bad... i believe painuser can be put with any of the other casters and do fairly well but HD has no hope how he casts is just terrible thinks his funny makes bad jokes.. not trying to be rude or anything but HD your just bad cant even watch ipl when this guy is on
have you seen catspajamas cast yet? hd/painuser seem like tastosis in comparison
you are comparing hd painuser to tastosis? are we both hearing the same thing? i can easily watch tastosis without any complaints about there casting and i actually laugh when they make jokes. but hd just tries to hard like SO hard that i cant even watch any time they cast its just a gongshow .. at least i am not the only one that thinks there casting is below average i actually like painusers casting when he casts with other commentators but hd i just cant stand him.. loll and yes i have seen catspajamas and i think his doing fairly well i like any other caster besides hd and that should mean something..
My main gripe with Cats is that he falls into the Total Biscuit/Mr Bitter model or pretending every player is world class in every match up all the time and just overhyping everything with no sense of perspective.
One of the great things about Tastosis is that they don't give you fake hype. If they think a guy sucks, or sucks in a matchup or is just playing badly on the day or if a match is just plain bad by both players they will call it as such and not pretend every game is played by two God's of Starcraft where one player plays slightly more godly than the other guy.
On February 04 2012 00:56 JPoPP wrote: 4)In the game where Sheth 10 pooled you missed the baneling nest by a MILE and miss called the entire game until you saw the actual banelings morphing PLEASE be more aware of the game state.
This has been the story of HD casting for a LONG time now. I have been muting them cast for a long time now, and I can see that I have been making the right decision.
I don't understand the point of a casting feedback thread if the HUGE, GLARING ERRORS that are being made are not fixed in the least.
That's like building a house, not putting a roof on it, and asking, hey guys, what needs to be improved, then everyone goes OMG PUT A FUCKING ROOF ON THE HOUSE, and six months later, that shit still doesn't have a roof.
HD, you are a graet overall caster. PainUser however needs to tone down the way he talks about some players. Obviously you have to sound professional and cast like a high level player, but the way he talks sometimes just makes it sound like they're noobs or inferior to him. It's fair degrading.
HD been a fan of you since the beta. Painuser, been a fan of you since finding your youtube channel (shortly after game got released) and watching your FPVODs and analysis.
HOWEVER. Last night, IPL Team League, Teamliquid vs ColMVP - My impression of you guys as casters went from above average positive to wtf happened?
Painuser: Please dont yell the word "RETARDED" on air. HD: Painuser throws you many lines that you dont seem to catch.. work on your chemistry ppls.
Both of you: 1. You're HIRED. You're PAID. You're professionals!! Know your own map pool! (Calm before the storm). Thats like hockey/sports caster not knowing the name of the city the team's are from. Don't spend 10minutes talking about swatsikas (and other unrelated stuff) and 2 minutes on the actual game. I watch starcraft to also learn/hear/be entertained ABOUT starcraft. 2. Don't make weird calls by saying that Sheth should send his lings in (ZvZ vs ColRyze) when he obviously wants them for banelings (baneling nest 90% complete). I dont even main zerg and i can tell his intentions. There's a reason ppl say "go watch Day9 to learn" and "only watch <insert names> for fun. Its because many ppl make the wrong calls and then newbie players learn to make the wrong decisions. Painuser I expect better from you seen as you were once a high NA player. 3. Watch the minimap! Seriously, im only in diamond and i see so much stuff going on that you guys miss. Drops, flanks etc. 4. Know the players and the scene! You should be ashamed for calling Goswer "Gauss-u-err" and send him an apology! Thats like media/celebrity specialists on MTV calling a celeb by the wrong name. Its GosU User! UU = W. 5. Keep up with the scene! Teamliquid didnt "only recently" acquire Zenio, that was back in late 2011! I get that some ppl won't follow the scene so closely, but you can say "for those of you that dont know, Zenio was transferred to TL 3 months ago" rather than "HEY! New acquisition by liquid!". 6. Dont wonder why someone lost a battle. Its obvious you weren't paying attention earlier because of your random banter and didnt see that one side is way ahead in upgrades 7. If you DONT know the map pool or the map, and then you compare calm before the storm to crevasse, and say that its "a better version of crevasse", at LEAST talk about the differences! Lack of rocked paths means available counter attack routes. One tower in mid (instead of 4) means side paths arent watched. In base nat has double gas. Etc.
What you did good: 1. Being light hearted and chill and having energy at the right moments
Pleaseee FOCUS what your good at into improving the above points!
I meant to post a similar list after the IPL Team League Liquid vs ColMVP broadcast, but joshie0808 has it all already covered nicely. So I just like to echo his post. Please step it up, IPL and Painuser/HD! Your casting that night was really subpar.
I think you are a good caster HD. You have a style that is agreeable for viewers whom are new to SC2, or do not play the game so frequently. There is a reason why it is a "spectator sport", and you are compatible to this idea.
I find some casters, compareably, are at the same level of knowledge with the game, however, you never become annoying for your opinions, nor do you ruin my enjoyment of the broadcast by becoming "BM", Ageist, or an egotistical know-it-all like Doa and Catspajamas.
I apologize if that last statement aimed at your former(or present) co-casters sounds offensive, however I do find there casting easier to miss everyday due to statements they have made regarding younger players, (such as vileIllusion), and especially their tone of voice for their manner of introducing these competitive players whom are notably younger then average pro-gamers.
I miss you and Pain-User; I am certain that "ageism within the gamer culture" is a great topic and thread worthy! I would like to see you return, and hopefully I can begin enjoying the IPL series again
BTW- Aren't games made for kids in the first place?
I love your light-hearted style of casting. Don't pay attention to these kids with 10 foot pole up their arse. DoA and Cats' chemistry pales to HD and Painuser. You guys seem to geniunely enjoy eachothers' company.
plogamer: I think the main problem isn't their chemistry but the fact that they just don't really understand the game or the players well enough.
For example, saying IdrA doesn't ladder much, calling Theognis "The Oh-gnis" calling "gosu user" "goswer". I would even understand them not knowing that it's gosu user, but they pronounced it wrong THE WRONG WAY! They took out a whole fucking letter! If you're going to mispronounce it, at least mispronounce it with the correct spelling...
On February 06 2012 01:04 Hulavuta wrote: plogamer: I think the main problem isn't their chemistry but the fact that they just don't really understand the game or the players well enough.
For example, saying IdrA doesn't ladder much, calling Theognis "The Oh-gnis" calling "gosu user" "goswer". I would even understand them not knowing that it's gosu user, but they pronounced it wrong THE WRONG WAY! They took out a whole fucking letter! If you're going to mispronounce it, at least mispronounce it with the correct spelling...
Yeah, what a big fuckin' deal. They took out a "whole fucking letter". It wasn't on purpose. But no, you have to rage at them. If you're going to tell me that other casters don't make any mistakes, then I applaud your delusion. I'm watching the Liquid.HerO vs NSHoSeo.Jjakji cast rightnow. I could go on and on about all of mistakes DoA and CatsPJ are making. But that'd be asinine.
HD and Painuser have a chemistry that is possibly exceeded only by Artosis and Tasteless. I love them for making the game more fun with their antics and personality.
On February 04 2012 17:01 plogamer wrote: I love your light-hearted style of casting. Don't pay attention to these kids with 10 foot pole up their arse. DoA and Cats' chemistry pales to HD and Painuser. You guys seem to geniunely enjoy eachothers' company.
This is a feedback thread. In such a thread, people are encouraged to give criticism so that the casting can improve. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion, it doesn't mean they have a "10 foot pole up their arse". I've stopped watching HD/PU because of HD's attempts at humor, and the apathetic way in which they approach what should be considered a dream job.
Know the players, know the maps, remain aware of basic strategies, watch the minimap so you're not talking about god knows what as a drop occurs. Frankly, it's embarrassing.
I like PainUser's casting because he gives good insight and I like to hear the opionions of good players.
What I find entertaining about HD is his really awkward style, like when he talks when commercials pop up, makes terrible calls, makes really weird jokes or sometimes randomly drops the ball . I know this is more a sign of bad casting, but to be honest it makes me laugh and is therefore entertaining.
Also HD has a really good broadcaster voice.
But I have to say that I can take the awkwardness of HD's casting only to a certain degree, when there are matches I am really interested in I prefer analytical casters like Orb, HD is more for the lulz if you know what I mean.
No offense intended, I actually enjoy the cast more than generic casting without a certain twist or superior knowlegde.
On February 04 2012 17:01 plogamer wrote: I love your light-hearted style of casting. Don't pay attention to these kids with 10 foot pole up their arse. DoA and Cats' chemistry pales to HD and Painuser. You guys seem to geniunely enjoy eachothers' company.
This is a feedback thread. In such a thread, people are encouraged to give criticism so that the casting can improve. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion, it doesn't mean they have a "10 foot pole up their arse". I've stopped watching HD/PU because of HD's attempts at humor, and the apathetic way in which they approach what should be considered a dream job.
Know the players, know the maps, remain aware of basic strategies, watch the minimap so you're not talking about god knows what as a drop occurs. Frankly, it's embarrassing.
Good luck IPL.
What about their approach strikes you as apathetic?
On February 04 2012 17:01 plogamer wrote: I love your light-hearted style of casting. Don't pay attention to these kids with 10 foot pole up their arse. DoA and Cats' chemistry pales to HD and Painuser. You guys seem to geniunely enjoy eachothers' company.
This is a feedback thread. In such a thread, people are encouraged to give criticism so that the casting can improve. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion, it doesn't mean they have a "10 foot pole up their arse". I've stopped watching HD/PU because of HD's attempts at humor, and the apathetic way in which they approach what should be considered a dream job.
Know the players, know the maps, remain aware of basic strategies, watch the minimap so you're not talking about god knows what as a drop occurs. Frankly, it's embarrassing.
Good luck IPL.
What about their approach strikes you as apathetic?
Not taking the time to research players, maps, basic openings, mini map events, etc.
I just have to put in that Painuser can be a little too critical at times, but he is overall one of my favorite casters due to his knowledge, humor, and smoothness.
HD is inattentive, says the same thing that his partner does a second after it is said, and has enough tangents that I feel like I'm watching a hyperactive valley girl sometimes. He also has to put into almost every cast that, "I like 'macro' games. This is a 'macro' map. The players are just 'macroing'." HD has one minor good thing going for him, in that is that he is not overly critical of the players or of SC2's randomness.
On February 04 2012 17:01 plogamer wrote: I love your light-hearted style of casting. Don't pay attention to these kids with 10 foot pole up their arse. DoA and Cats' chemistry pales to HD and Painuser. You guys seem to geniunely enjoy eachothers' company.
This is a feedback thread. In such a thread, people are encouraged to give criticism so that the casting can improve. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion, it doesn't mean they have a "10 foot pole up their arse". I've stopped watching HD/PU because of HD's attempts at humor, and the apathetic way in which they approach what should be considered a dream job.
Know the players, know the maps, remain aware of basic strategies, watch the minimap so you're not talking about god knows what as a drop occurs. Frankly, it's embarrassing.
Good luck IPL.
What about their approach strikes you as apathetic?
Not taking the time to research players, maps, basic openings, mini map events, etc.
I agree with this! It's understandable if casters miss stuff on the mini map in a live tournament/live online event because of how exciting it is and nervous they might be, but if you're casting from reps most of the time.. come on. And yeah, it really isn't excusable for casters to not know their maps in and out, the players they're casting and the basic openings either.
I'd just like to say that most of the posters in this thread, specifically in the last few pages, aren't offering anything constructive, and are mostly repeating each other.
If you're going to complain about something being some way, explain how you think it ought to be, and why.
I enjoy HD/Painuser because of their fun personalities, they keep me entertained. If I'm looking for in-depth analysis, I tend to watch with the audio OFF so that it forces me to actually think about the game and actually pay attention, instead of just assuming the casters are right (if you assume they're wrong, why even listen to them).
If they miss a drop, or miss-read a build, so what? Everyone does that, you can't be perfect every time, Tastosis miss drops all the time, even ST_Legend (observer for the GSL) misses some stuff on a fairly regular basis. Nobody is perfect. If they missed every drop and never read anything about what the players were doing that would be a problem, if you think that's the case, then say that, otherwise keep your once-off analysis to yourself. Also, knowing player names and maps and whatnot would most likely not be their fault, there is a whole production crew there, and it's probably someone else's job to inform them who they're casting and what the map pool is (make a 1-page writeup of the players, map pool, team standings, etc..), and if it's not, then IPL should incorporate that into their production workflow, as should a lot of other productions.
If you're complaining about them not knowing or saying something that you already know, and you're a low-league noob, then chances are everyone else knows it too, and it probably goes without saying.
My feedback: Keep your liveliness, but focus more on reading the current game state, and predicting where it's going, every time you predict correctly give yourself a virtual cookie.
My favorite casting pairs have one caster who focuses on analysis and game knowledge, and another who focuses on play by play and entertainment. I think HD and puser do this really well, as do catz and doa for ipl currently. that being said, i think HD should focus more on the play by play, and puser focus more on analysis. Also, I think that there is kind of a lot of awkward tension between HD and puser, and it has made me uncomfortable for a long time. If one of you makes a joke or comment that happens to offend the other one, it starts this weird back and forth "joking" insult match that has gotten super uncomfortable during some games. regardless, you two are my favorite casting pair! keep up the good work.
HD, you need to stop saying the filler words "uh" "um" etc. Using those words sparsely is definitely ok, but whenever I hear you cast you sound basically like Obama without the teleprompter. Instead of uh- and um-ing every other word just pause for a split second, gather what word you want to use and say it, I am sure you know this little public speaking trick.
Painuser, you need to give HD/co-caster a chance to talk man, I kinda feel bad for HD sometimes.
To both: please, please please do some research on the players, maps and the current meta games! (the meta games can be taken care of by spending an hour or two watching the GSL) Especially for HD I feel like even though you are a NA master zerg you are often surprised by the very basic builds thrown out by the current top Koreans.
Otherwise good job to both! You two are doing what you truly love and are getting paid well for it! (damn you for taking my dream job lol) Best of luck to your future career as an E-sport commentator!
Never posted in this thread, but I guess I'm bored.
Ever since I watched a few of your videos, HD, I'm not gonna lie, I think you're just terrible. That's just my personal opinion. Overall, you have pretty bad knowledge of the game and your "humor" makes me cringe badly... Also, it's obvious that you try VERY HARD to be overly nice to the viewer and to everyone, which comes out so fake as badly as the girl in The Ring comes out of the TV.
For positives, I guess you have a good mic and voice.
But you and people like Husky just shouldn't be casting high level games, I'm sorry. I don't mind if you cast anything else really, that's just great.
In general, pro casters should be ex-GM+ players that express themselves fluently and have a great personality. If not, they should be someone that is AMAZING at keeping track of what's going on on the map that can follow and describe live action well (play by play). Even Tasteless doesn't do this well, to be honest.
On March 16 2012 03:13 fishjie wrote: Hey I haven't seen painuser or HD casting on IGN for a while, and they were my favorite casting pair. What happened?
On March 16 2012 05:29 Holcan wrote: where are you guys casting now? I miss you a lot
Painuser said on Inside the Game that him and HD are no longer working full-time for IGN and that they'll only be doing events (e.g. IPL4).
I always enjoy the HD casts, although you do make a lot of mistakes. I think most come forth not from your lack of knowledge, but from simply trying too hard. On one hand you try to make things sound exciting, thus you call everything an all-in or a rush. On the other hand you will often try to read the mind of a player and try to come up with an answer that sounds high-level when he's just doing some basic stuff any player would. I also notice you'll sometimes call things happening around the 11-15th minute mark openings... He's going for a banshee opening (clock at 12 minutes).
Finally I guess you use some strange words sometimes. You refrain from swearing/cursing, yet you constantly make sexual innuendo's (And I'm not even sure you're conscious of it D. And you'll sometimes use repetitive lines: "that's all she wrote" and stuff like that.
Still, you are probably my favorite caster. On one hand you have a great voice, on the other hand you have a likeable personality. I somewhat hate husky's voice and I probably wouldn't last long being around him if I knew him, too social for me D:. The only reason I subscribed to him was cause he brings out more content faster and cause Day9 mostly uploads hour-long analyses instead of gamecasts.
On March 16 2012 03:13 fishjie wrote: Hey I haven't seen painuser or HD casting on IGN for a while, and they were my favorite casting pair. What happened?
On March 16 2012 03:13 fishjie wrote: Hey I haven't seen painuser or HD casting on IGN for a while, and they were my favorite casting pair. What happened?
On March 16 2012 05:29 Holcan wrote: where are you guys casting now? I miss you a lot
Painuser said on Inside the Game that him and HD are no longer working full-time for IGN and that they'll only be doing events (e.g. IPL4).
that's sad I really enjoyed them as a casting duo. i search painuser to see if i could find any info and found this thread
This thread just reminded me of them, I really haven't seen either of them in a long time. They were definitely trying to improve as a casting duo.
On March 16 2012 07:00 Legion710 wrote: In general, pro casters should be ex-GM+ players that express themselves fluently and have a great personality. If not, they should be someone that is AMAZING at keeping track of what's going on on the map that can follow and describe live action well (play by play). Even Tasteless doesn't do this well, to be honest.
Woahwoahwoahwoah... Okay mister, we need to get two things straight: 1: You don't mess with Tastosis on TL without having evidence to back it up 2: Do you have any idea how good Tasteless actually is? I'm telling you. He be jacking dem ladder points
On March 16 2012 07:00 Legion710 wrote: In general, pro casters should be ex-GM+ players that express themselves fluently and have a great personality. If not, they should be someone that is AMAZING at keeping track of what's going on on the map that can follow and describe live action well (play by play). Even Tasteless doesn't do this well, to be honest.
Woahwoahwoahwoah... Okay mister, we need to get two things straight: 1: You don't mess with Tastosis on TL without having evidence to back it up 2: Do you have any idea how good Tasteless actually is? I'm telling you. He be jacking dem ladder points
People are allowed to have preferences. Personally, I do not like Tasteless in the least. He adds nothing to casts outside of jokes, small talk and saying what is happening right on the screen.
Toss your fanboyism out the window and accept that people like different things.
On March 16 2012 07:00 Legion710 wrote: In general, pro casters should be ex-GM+ players that express themselves fluently and have a great personality. If not, they should be someone that is AMAZING at keeping track of what's going on on the map that can follow and describe live action well (play by play). Even Tasteless doesn't do this well, to be honest.
Woahwoahwoahwoah... Okay mister, we need to get two things straight: 1: You don't mess with Tastosis on TL without having evidence to back it up 2: Do you have any idea how good Tasteless actually is? I'm telling you. He be jacking dem ladder points
People are allowed to have preferences. Personally, I do not like Tasteless in the least. He adds nothing to casts outside of jokes, small talk and saying what is happening right on the screen.
Toss your fanboyism out the window and accept that people like different things.
Of course everyone is allowed to have personal preferences. But saying Tasteless is bad since he isn't GM-material is just silly since, he probably doesn't have a clue about the actual level of Tasteless
On March 16 2012 07:00 Legion710 wrote: In general, pro casters should be ex-GM+ players that express themselves fluently and have a great personality. If not, they should be someone that is AMAZING at keeping track of what's going on on the map that can follow and describe live action well (play by play). Even Tasteless doesn't do this well, to be honest.
Woahwoahwoahwoah... Okay mister, we need to get two things straight: 1: You don't mess with Tastosis on TL without having evidence to back it up 2: Do you have any idea how good Tasteless actually is? I'm telling you. He be jacking dem ladder points
People are allowed to have preferences. Personally, I do not like Tasteless in the least. He adds nothing to casts outside of jokes, small talk and saying what is happening right on the screen.
Toss your fanboyism out the window and accept that people like different things.
Of course everyone is allowed to have personal preferences. But saying Tasteless is bad since he isn't GM-material is just silly since, he probably doesn't have a clue about the actual level of Tasteless
Tasteless purposefully talks about the in-the-moment and currently-on-the-screen information so that the audience has a general idea of what is occurring. His role in the 'casting-archon' is this superficial layer. Artosis's role is to provide the depth and analysis. Tasteless is not a noob and is not an idiot and very much so is probably thinking what Artosis is thinking, however they have DISTINCT roles to create a diverse and dynamic casting duo. Tasteless used to be a sc1 pro just like day9 and artosis and is masters korea (relatable to gm usa).
As long as I can remember Painuser has liked to say what WILL happen. He WILL use this pylon to warp in zealots to attack the third while he attacks the main. Then... it doesn't happen, which makes the whole thing dumb. And when it does happen it is anticlimactic.
It is much smoother, and less distracting for myself, if you leave things more open ended. "There is a pylon being warped in near the 3rd, he COULD use this to warp in zealots to attack the 3rd or he may be saving it for later."
Oh, digging up this thread may not be a good idea judging by the average poster in the IPL4 LR thread... Personally I think PU has some smart analysis on the terran MUs, but they're both lacking severely in at least the PvZ realm. (Just saw Nestea 11p squirtle on Antiga IPL4 and the analysis was WAY off.)
I also dislike the false excitement, but it seems like everyone does that to some extent. At least the two of you talk well together.
in general the casters at ipl4 have been good, but stream issues (volume and cutting off) lowered my viewing experience... though i didnt pay to watch. painusr is pretty good and hd is a good play by play but they both tend to get shrill and get off topic some times.. in this repsect doa and cats are better, but painuser and hd have more character and chemistry
On April 09 2012 11:58 Kare wrote: Why is everyone picking on HD etc? HD is not that bad, people should rather be picking on the sound issues and the unprofessional korean stage lady
Haven't read the rest of the feedback. My thoughts watching the two of you is to talk more about what is going to happen, rather than what is already visible on the production tab. If you have trouble with this, please attempt to either play at a high level, or spend a significant amount of time analyzing top players replays with respect to timings/standard builds vs all-ins etc. The level of knowledge when compared casters like artosis or DApollo is really standing out.
I feel HD doesn't really follow the scene anymore. He doesn't know a lot about the players and seems lost about the metagame in the current matchups. Painuser is doing okay.
HD should stick more to doing the play-by-play part.
hey HD and Painuser, u guys did great job all IPL (proud of u guys getting more acquainted casting duo) 1 constructive criticism - just try not to keep running over each other, let each other finish a complete thought/sentence, (know its hella hard because of the way sc2 has 1million actions per minute) just keep it up dudes
I honestly like HD, he should stick to color commentary kinda like tasteless. A lot of the things you say he needs to improve on, so does Tasteless. But it doesnt matter cuz he has Artosis giving all the play by play, and strategic stuff.
When on camera i think he needs to stop facing the other caster and look more into the camera.
Yeah I also feel like HD should stay away from the analysis part of the game. It feels like he always tries to say something concerning analysis and that is just not only not his area of proficiency, but the area where he is just bad at.
Its hard to say, "well HD just learn the game and then go into analysis", I think he should just know his role in the duo of him and Painuser (a play by play) and stick to it. You know, if anything prompt Pain User to talk about analysis.
I have enjoyed their coverage. PU has good analysis, not as good as Artosis, Day9 or Apollo but comparable to Wolf which is quite sufficient.The slightly weak link is HD who is commendably passionate but seems to drift too much as the play by play role. I would give them 7/10. I think they are improving but more knuckling down is required especially by HD who has been caught and surpassed by Catspyj
On April 09 2012 12:20 GreenHorizons wrote: These 2 do realize they can hear them while the game is paused right....?!?
shh that would make too much sense HD barely knows whats going on anyways, can't make him think too much :D. Gotta love on Cloud Kingdom, wow he just spent so much money that he won't be able to get a hatchery anytime soon (as the hatchery is going down at his expo aka where the 300 minerals went..... )
On April 09 2012 12:20 nat wrote: PLEASE stop saying COMSAT and say SCAN. i dont even play bw..
The comsat station uses highly concentrated scanners to reveal an area, including cloaked or burrowed units. This can be executed anywhere on the map at any time. The circular view shown lasts for about 10 seconds before changing to the fog of war static view. A scanner sweep is indicated to all players (including the one doing it) by a series of blue 4-pointed sparkles moving in a circle.
Comsat enables the use of scan. Hence it is the same thing, just a different name altogether.
I generally like their casting. Although please stop pointing out obvious things(Like VERY ovbious)."Squirtle is going stargate" hur dur...after staring at it for 3 minutes. etc Also quit missing drops. The hatchery thing in game 3 was also like "what?!?!".
On April 09 2012 12:11 gEzUS wrote: I honestly like HD, he should stick to color commentary kinda like tasteless. A lot of the things you say he needs to improve on, so does Tasteless. But it doesnt matter cuz he has Artosis giving all the play by play, and strategic stuff.
When on camera i think he needs to stop facing the other caster and look more into the camera.
thats all, great games!
thats saying hes not a good caster in anything, thats everything a caster needs to do and you re saying he has to improve, lol
i've always thought hd/painuser have tried a little bit too hard to be tastosis-esque, i mean i can't blame them for takine tricks out of the handbag of the best in the world, but they just don't quite grab me like tastosis, i don't feel the energy and it's just not fluid or natural, it feels forced... Honestly, study more tastosis / dApollo / CatsPajamas, or DoA and you'll be okay but as of right now I'd much rather have any other casting duo at IPL 4 casting....
Please stop saying "make a hold". This seems to have caught on at IPL, but it makes me cringe every time I hear it. "Will he make a hold here?" is the most awkwardly-phrased thing I've ever heard. Is "Will he hold here?" just too easy?
On April 09 2012 12:25 PrimeTimey wrote: Tip: Don't talk about Pokemon and random garble when there is downtime.
I doubt that's the issue. Tastosis, Day9, TB and Apollo all do this on a regular basis. Talking about "nerd" things and person lives. People love it and eat it up, but hearing it from a person they don't personally like certainly comes off as being obnoxious.
It's good and entertaining if done appropriately, coming from HD for some reason it feels fake and forced. It is the casters jobs to entertain and be fun, but if it's blatantly artificial, it's not pleasant. I don't even know if it's genuine or not coming from HD, but it certainly doesn't feel like it and personally also find his casting unpleasant.
I too feel like HD doesn't follow the pro scene too much anymore. He seems like he doesn't know what to say about the game a lot of the time. I think Painuser should be the play by play guy and have HD do the colour commentary. HD has a great voice for casting and gives a lot of energy but his analysis of what's going on in the game is often times very weak.
Painuser: - Please make lots of dialogue with HD instead of making your own monologue. - Focus on speaking in low points in the game. - Listen to the very first commentary you do and compare it with your current commentary. You do this whisper-y raspy voice sometimes and that does not trigger my enjoyment like other voices do. Talk like you would to a friend listening intently.
You guys both did great at IPL. I thought HD's best moments were actually when he casted on his own and with Apollo. Painuser you did well in every combination. Big improvements imo!
On April 09 2012 12:20 GreenHorizons wrote: These 2 do realize they can hear them while the game is paused right....?!?
shh that would make too much sense HD barely knows whats going on anyways, can't make him think too much :D. Gotta love on Cloud Kingdom, wow he just spent so much money that he won't be able to get a hatchery anytime soon (as the hatchery is going down at his expo aka where the 300 minerals went..... )
this is the HD / painuser "feedback" thread he created for constructive critism on his commentating.
not mindless bashing.
i hope the mods step up and preserve this, so it doesn't turn into an idiotic flaming hate-fest.
HD is just doing his job and a lot of people like him. his game knowledge is a lot better than you probably think, when his mind is a bit clearer (he's probably verrrrry nervous right now with the massive crowd).
he says a lot of silly things (which is what generates the flaming), but everyone makes mistakes and you should use this thread as a place to give positive feedback so he can improve in the future and continue doing great things for the community (as he has for years now. what have you done <generic flaming poster on TL>? absolutely nothing most likely, so please shut up).
On April 09 2012 12:25 PrimeTimey wrote: Tip: Don't talk about Pokemon and random garble when there is downtime.
I doubt that's the issue. Tastosis, Day9, TB and Apollo all do this on a regular basis. Talking about "nerd" things and person lives. People love it and eat it up, but hearing it from a person they don't personally like certainly comes off as being obnoxious.
It's good and entertaining if done appropriately, coming from HD for some reason it feels fake and forced. It is the casters jobs to entertain and be fun, but if it's blatantly artificial, it's not pleasant. I don't even know if it's genuine or not coming from HD, but it certainly doesn't feel like it and personally also find his casting unpleasant.
If your audience is nerds and there is downtime nerd topics are always a good choice And whether we are cool or uncool, fat or skinny or buff, we are all nerds
If I could recommend one thing for both of you, I would try altering the delivery of your comments somewhat. When PainUser starts analyzing an in-game situation, I feel like he has the tendency to start speaking more quietly with a much higher pitch. HD has the tendency to get a little too excited during casting.
Personally, I really enjoy having a caster explain a (potentially complex) non-battle game situation using a mostly calm and steady voice. I might just be weird in that regard, but I definitely feel like casters, in general, are too excited during a game. Obviously there will be moments where excitement is warranted, and sometimes the smallest details can have a huge impact on a game, but it feels weird when casters sound excited ALL the time.
Oh, and don't always feel like you have to talk really fast.
Painuser is the best caster at IPL. Has everything, energy, good use of vocabulary, and unlike all the other casters (Apollo aside, although hes not regular IPL) actually understands the game.
hd and painuser are some of my old time favorite players/casters since beta, them and husky are one of the reasons i am so big on the sc2 e-Sports scene and i would be happy to see them at future events :D
I think your casting is fine, HDStarCraft. As a color commentator, I prefer Husky. As a technical analyst, I prefer Artosis. But your casting is fine, if I have to absolutely pick one thing to have you improve upon, maybe it'd be humor. I enjoy listening to Husky because he's funny as hell. Plus him and Artosis seem to really be into the games that they're casting, unlike Day9 whom I think is a "little" bit over the top. Please don't flame me, Day9 fans.
I like your casting, but HD, but you seem to make more weird calls with protoss than with the other races. The most recent game is the one just now on TalDarim between Nestea and Squirtle, the one before the regame. Squirtle goes voidray then adds 5 gates, but you then say you expect a robo to follow, with an immortal and a 6/7 gate push?
If anything that is extremely rare following a stargate opener, as it will delay the push substantially and allow the zerg enough time to be maxed out or have hydra/infestor or whatever other defensive route they take. It seemed quite clear he was just going straight into mass gate, without the immortals.
There were some other instances as well, but I can't really remember them cause I didn't write them down or take mental not of them, but I think your Protoss knowledge could use some updating.
ROFL.... technically a problem with HD and Painuser telling the player strats with open booths?!?!?....
I give these guys a hard time but I appreciate the the difficulty of what they do.
But come one you are like 5 feet away from them of course they can hear you...
It should just be a standard live tourney etiquette not to talk about the game when the game is paused booths open or not.
I actually really like HD and Painuser when Painuser is nerdchecking HD kinda reminds me of when tasteless picks on artosis..
I always question the actual soundproofedness of the booths but whatev...
except nestea and squirtle don't understand english..
It's much easier to understand a language and what is said, than to speak it. It's pretty safe to assume that they understand english reasonably well, and would be able at least understand some of the stuff that is said, as they know all of the important words (such as all sc2 terms in english too).
There has been a TON of negative feedback, particularly on reddit... And I believe that was a little bit uncalled for. You guys did as good a job as any non-day9/husky/tastless/artosis level caster would have, if not better.
HD talks extremely fast in game for no reason...a lot of games at IPL seem to devolve into a battle between two auctioneers and neither can get in a full thought. Both of you need to take a silent pause between sentences and analyze what is going on (particularly HD) instead of having to correct yourself. There are times when to be loud and fast when action is occurring...but I think one of the best qualities of Tastosis is their ability to just be calm and collected when necessary and not have their talking overtake the game.
On April 09 2012 13:18 PopcornColonel wrote: There has been a TON of negative feedback, particularly on reddit... And I believe that was a little bit uncalled for. You guys did as good a job as any non-day9/husky/tastless/artosis level caster would have, if not better.
Ignore reddit, you did just fine.
You are either trolling or oblivious to what makes a good caster if you believe your post. Painuser is a decent caster but HD is horrible. Saying that these two are anywhere near the likes of Tasteless/Artosis/Day9 is crazy.
If you want to get leagues ahead of every other caster out there, never say "This game is over" or anything like that. In the final moments of the game there should be enough going on not to have to accounce the game has ended before it actually has. I would go so far as to say don't announce which player is "winning" ever.
Seriously think of the worst thing your mother/girlfriend/boyfriend/someone who doesn't understand esports could possibly ask you:
Love the casting in general. -But the things im a bit effy about is Taylor (Painuser) seems to do more studying of the game, players, meta, etc. Compared to you. And thats where its seem to have a casters imbalance! ^^ keep on casting you2 !!
On April 09 2012 13:18 PopcornColonel wrote: There has been a TON of negative feedback, particularly on reddit... And I believe that was a little bit uncalled for. You guys did as good a job as any non-day9/husky/tastless/artosis level caster would have, if not better.
Ignore reddit, you did just fine.
You're right, your opinion overrules the TON of feedback from a different community A lot of the criticism is valid and that is what he is asking for
I totally didnt enjoy the casting at all; you mixed up the players, missed SO many important things that were going on (and I think were also pointed out by the observer). You literally said "make some noise for X" at least 20 times per second without exaggeration and it was very notable that the crowd was annoyed by that, too, as no one was clapping any more by the time you had already way overdone it which is pretty awkward to say the least... Also there seemed to be more technical errors during your casts, too, but I don't think you are to be held responsible for that. And, but that may just be me, I didn't find you especially funny either.
I thought you guys did a good job. Nothing stands out to me as "That was an amateur mistake you see on sc2casts", but nothing blew me away like some of those classic Tastosis jokes that you laugh at for awhile. I think you two are coming along nicely as a casting duo, and keep up the hard work.
Didnt enjoy....alot of mistakes and false information during all of the casts......made it really impossible to listen to.....or why even listen to it at all if nothing makes sense.........You guys need to read up on all the matchups.... Youre roles as casters was also a bit confusing and you guys didnt really have a nice "flow", both of you had the same caster "role" and took turns talking...... IMO have HD do most of the play-by-play and then use Painuser as the "analyser-expert"....So HD talks alot about whats going on and then throws it to Pain if he wants to know something particular....just like any other caster-duo that has ever been created in sports etc......
On April 09 2012 13:18 PopcornColonel wrote: There has been a TON of negative feedback, particularly on reddit... And I believe that was a little bit uncalled for. You guys did as good a job as any non-day9/husky/tastless/artosis level caster would have, if not better.
Ignore reddit, you did just fine.
The OP is a caster who wants genuine feedback so he can improve his casting, so the negative feedback is necessary.
I think HD's articulation and just general ability to speak is great. One of the best. I'm neutral about the side chit-chat, on one hand it get's carried away sometimes, on the other it shows personality and character.
However, the content is outright terrible. A lot of the things says are just wrong with a few exaggerated miscalls. While I appreciate the enthusiasm, sometimes there is overreaction and overemphasis on things that are just trivial. eg: "Doing devastating damage!!" - when in reality only the shields from a bunch of buildings have been taken out eg: "Player X has a HUGE lead!" - when in reality supplies are just about even.
The potential is there. I just feel like HD needs to get a deeper understanding of the game. Being a color commentator does not mean being allowed to say things that are incorrect.
Just my $0.02
Edit: Painuser is overall a good commentator. Nothing bad to say about him.
Both of you have really improved. Keep it up! It's clear you really love the game and that's the most important thing. Like other people have said just keep learning more and keep getting better
I love how there are so many individuals commenting yet I'm sure not 1% of the people giving negative comments could perform nearly as good as either of these two.... Honestly, your calls were quite accurate and I think the people critisizing really don't know two shits about casting on a live stage.
i got to listen to the korean stream, which was quite good to hear that passion and intensity in a cast even though i dont understand korean, and reignite my proleague watching nastalga. So i guess thanks for casting? i think my big problem is that you guys havent casted in a long time, its all been cats and doa. Just from seeing how the stream numbers were IGN should know what to do with HD and painuser in future events. If you want to get better, you should be casting more and practicing, main stream isnt a place to do that.
On April 09 2012 14:01 ClanRH.TV wrote: I love how there are so many individuals commenting yet I'm sure not 1% of the people giving negative comments could perform nearly as good as either of these two.... Honestly, your calls were quite accurate and I think the people critisizing really don't know two shits about casting on a live stage.
Good job.
while i agree that in cases of like, criticizing an athlete (including e-athletes) you need to be able to perform yourself, in order to have truly poignant criticism, i think ANYONE can criticize an entertainer, because basically, everyone is "equally" good in terms of their importance of being entertained.
PainUser is very articulate and I really enjoy his casting. You need some work though, but I still like you.
Also, smack whoever was in charge of the camera's during the games. Holy wow, showing the audience in the middle of an engagement?! Yeah, that's a good idea... -__-
I just dont understand about people bashing casters. What I saw was good commentating, of course there are things that you can do better but nevertheless it was great!
I agree, get past the bashing, look for the advice/feedback. You were the first caster I watched when I got into SC2. If it wasn't for your YT channel, I wouldn't even be here posting now, let alone even be interested in SC2 or eSports. It makes me sad thinking about how much effort you put into casting with such a positive attitude, only to get knocked down by some people who take it too far. I think you improved pretty well over the course of today. More notably when you were casting with Apollo on the match of MMA vs Stephano.
I enjoyed it and always thought you two had great chemistry. I think the joking around needs to stay, its what makes you guys different from every other casters that just focus on the games which gets real old after a while, especially in a weekend tournament setting with tons of games.
Perhaps there were times when HD was making mistakes here or there, honestly I must not had been playing close enough attention cause I didn't notice. But when you talk to the crowd you need to be seriously hyped up. It wasn't just HD doing this I noticed several other people on stage do this too, when you're asking the crowd to get excited... you need to actually sound excited as you do it. Or it comes off fake and forced. And yeah you cant ask the crowd a hundred times to "make some noise" you really need to pay attention to whats going on or you sound redundant. But wow Painuser man, I was pleasantly surprised with how great he was with the crowd. I hope HD picks up the slack a little bit because you guys makea great duo and I hope to see a lot more of you both.
On April 09 2012 14:31 ContactKilla wrote: HD I muted you. Cant stand your casting. just watched the game in silence
Why don't you offer him some constructive criticism instead of just saying you hated him. It doesn't really help for you just to tell him he's bad. : /
I thought for the most part the casting was decent.
Don't worry about the bashers, guys. I thought your casts were really good throughout the event! The only thing I would suggest was that HD say some more important information during the game. Saying stuff like "he's getting some zealots here!" or "he needs to have a good engagement to win" is kinda obvious so I don't think that they need to be said. I think HD has a great commentating voice and great energy and PU provides great analysis, just need to fine tune some things and you'll be amazing
On April 09 2012 14:31 ContactKilla wrote: HD I muted you. Cant stand your casting. just watched the game in silence
This is a poor example of feedback. I hope you never work in a corporate environment or try to express yourself to a colleague or your significant other for that matter using this kind of feedback.
If you could be specific your opinion would have weight and merit, right now we're just ignoring you as a baseless accusation.
To help you out, here's an example of constructive feedback.
Caster X. You use filler words like uhm, yeah and you know 23 times between hour 6 and 8 on <insert link>. These words add no value to your casting, please try to eliminate them.
I've been watching HD cast since beta of SC2 and it's weird because I noticably enjoy his YT casts much more than his live casting. I think he needs to focus moreso on being either analysis or entertaining play-by-play and work this out with his fellow caster, painuser. I am and always will be a fan of HD so I don't really care, as long as he keeps casting I'm happy
On April 09 2012 14:31 ContactKilla wrote: HD I muted you. Cant stand your casting. just watched the game in silence
i don't understand why posts like this in this thread don't get bans. if you go to any other thread and see type of post it's an auto ban or warn, but not here. so much hate / flaming in a thread that is meant for positive / constructive critisism and feedback.
On April 09 2012 14:31 ContactKilla wrote: HD I muted you. Cant stand your casting. just watched the game in silence
This is a poor example of feedback. I hope you never work in a corporate environment or try to express yourself to a colleague or your significant other for that matter using this kind of feedback.
If you could be specific your opinion would have weight and merit, right now we're just ignoring you as a baseless accusation.
To help you out, here's an example of constructive feedback.
Caster X. You use filler words like uhm, yeah and you know 23 times between hour 6 and 8 on <insert link>. These words add no value to your casting, please try to eliminate them.
I agree about constructive criticism in general, but I feel it applies mostly to analytical casters. Shoutcasters or play by play casters are mostly about voice, exclamation and personality. Voice control is something that either comes naturally or requires training, most of us are not qualified to give advice in that department. Personality aspect is either going to appeal to you or it won't. HD doesn't appeal to me personally, I can't give you specific advice on how I could like you. And even if I could, changing his personality could cause him to lose fans who do like him. Some personalities will just rub some people wrong and won't be pleasant. For example, pretty much anything cast by IMBA-tv I personally find intolerable and when possible will just watch a foreign language stream if available, so that I could still hear game sounds without being annoyed by the casting.
To add, in regards to the original post, I do find it pointless to post "I don't like this guy's personality" in a thread designed to help these casters improve. In the same light I find it pointless to post "great job, I like you", the positive comments are just far more tolerated as they aren't belligerent.
So HD/Painuser do either of you guys care about these criticisms? Both of you have to be aware hatred that is getting thrown your way and I want to know how substantive you think it is.
I could write a pretty lengthy criticism on the things you're doing right and what you're doing wrong, but it'd seem like I would be wasting air. I feel like there is this common view among some of commentators that the community is full of haters and therefore their critiques are invalid. Far from it. Your job is to entertain us (either by being funny or informative), but the problem I find with your casts is I could really care less about them. At their best, it's nothing special. It's a serious thing and I think that I speak for alot of people when I say that. So, sure I could give you ideas about how to become a better caster but shouldn't it be your job to improve it? Anyways, good luck finding your niche.
On April 09 2012 14:56 McFeser wrote: So HD/Painuser do either of you guys care about these criticisms? Both of you have to be aware hatred that is getting thrown your way and I want to know how substantive you think it is.
I could write a pretty lengthy criticism on the things you're doing right and what you're doing wrong, but it'd seem like I would be wasting air. I feel like there is this common view among some of commentators that the community is full of haters and therefore their critiques are invalid. Far from it. Your job is to entertain us (either by being funny or informative), but the problem I find with your casts is I could really care less about them. At their best, it's nothing special. It's a serious thing and I think that I speak for alot of people when I say that. So, sure I could give you ideas about how to become a better caster but shouldn't it be your job to improve it? Anyways, good luck finding your niche.
except the community is filled with haters, they have issues, but they dont deserve the hateful remarks they get. they do plenty of things right.
On April 09 2012 14:31 ContactKilla wrote: HD I muted you. Cant stand your casting. just watched the game in silence
i don't understand why posts like this in this thread don't get bans. if you go to any other thread and see type of post it's an auto ban or warn, but not here. so much hate / flaming in a thread that is meant for positive / constructive critisism and feedback.
Well, it's said in a polite manner and it says "feedback" not "constructive criticism" in the thread title. I agree that such replies have little value, but expressing a 100% dislike is still ok in my view when the post quality is decent.
I also would agree that HD is the weakest of the casters right now. No biggie though, can always switch streams.
edit: Painuser has improved quite a bit since I saw him first on NASL (I think).
Develop an intricate understanding of each matchup HD/Painuser. It's really painful to hear you guys make very baseline observations while not providing any interesting commentary at all. Yeah, this requires you to put some real time into watching replays/playing ladder, but if casting is your passion then I think it's pretty much mandatory. Ask for some advice from Artosis or Incontrol. They aren't the best players, but their analysis more than makes up for any lack of skill.
For Painuser, I do like your casting, but you whispered during intense moments way too often. You should be louder than the rest of the auditorium, raising the hype level. I give you some benefit of the doubt since some of those Nestea games were pure shit, but still, you shouldn't be whispering, IMHO.
I like both you guys as players and casters, but I'd give you guys a caster grade of C+. Don't worry about making us laugh. Gain some deeper knowledge about the timings, positional battles, and decision making, and the rest will just come naturally.
Painuser - Very good with analysis and I can tell you know the game very well and that's what matters most to me as a viewer. May need to work on your humor a bit however. HDStarcraft - Hmm you are very enthusiastic, but I feel you get a lot of things wrong. There are many times you criticize the players you are casting saying they should be doing something else, but a lot of the time you are completely wrong. I don't think you understand the game on a professional level. I can think of a particular example, you were casting idra and criticizing his overlord placement on tal'darim alter. You should never put your overlord vs terran on the pillars to the main. If you are casting a professional and you don't understand what he is doing, or you think he should be doing something else you are most likely wrong.
On April 09 2012 14:31 ContactKilla wrote: HD I muted you. Cant stand your casting. just watched the game in silence
i don't understand why posts like this in this thread don't get bans. if you go to any other thread and see type of post it's an auto ban or warn, but not here. so much hate / flaming in a thread that is meant for positive / constructive critisism and feedback.
On April 09 2012 14:31 ContactKilla wrote: HD I muted you. Cant stand your casting. just watched the game in silence
i don't understand why posts like this in this thread don't get bans. if you go to any other thread and see type of post it's an auto ban or warn, but not here. so much hate / flaming in a thread that is meant for positive / constructive critisism and feedback.
He is being honest. Nothing wrong with that.
There's a difference between being honest and not offering any constructive criticism and just being rude for the sake of being rude. The post itself doesn't really serve any purpose other than just bashing.
I'd like to come forward and say that personalities for both of you are not an issue, as I enjoy that aspect of you two.
I will say that, for this last IPL that it can be embarrassing when one of you states something, then is forced to retract that statement with "oh whoops, actually it's this".
I think it's also beneficial for you guys to lean on each other for any areas of the game that might befuddle you, instead of saying "I don't agree with this" perhaps you could say "Painuser, notice that move...any insight from a Terran perspective on that?" and so on.
Best thing you guys can do to up the professionalism is watch some replays of your own casting and you'll definitely see for yourself, areas that you fumbled on, or simply weren't very professional at that moment in time.
I am not the first to say this, but the problem persists Painuser, there are other races besides Terran, although this wasn't as prevalent this time around ^^ headed in the right direction I guessssssss
I thought the casting was good this event. I think you two got better and better the longer the tournament went on. My advice for next event would be to do more casting with another person beforehand so you dont come in so rusty. Overall great casting keep it up!
In terms of chemistry, personality, and so forth, I thought you guys were pretty good.
However, I got a little annoyed at the number of times one of you stated something about the game that wasn't true. For example, one of you (I forget whom) said something to the effect of, "Nestea just has Roach tech, he hasn't even started a followup, whether that'll be a spire or infestors or something else" even though the spire was shown building in the stream a few minutes earlier. I'm not sure how other casters manage to avoid making mistakes like this (obviously everyone misspeaks sometimes, other casters included), but you should be more aware when you speak, because the two of you made more of that kind of mistake than most.
You guys did alright on the analysis, predicting which builds the players were going for and so forth, but it wasn't the same depth of knowledge as dApollo displayed during the finals, catching on to the players' mindgames (e.g. Squirtle making 2 gas every game even though he often pulled probes off one of them for a while to focus on minerals) and so forth. I definitely got the vibe that neither of you understand the game at the same high level as the more analytical casters out there (Artosis, Day9, Wolf) who are very familiar with all the various builds and trends out there.
On April 09 2012 16:02 kckkryptonite wrote: Painuser: can you stop doing that annoying Day9 thing where you end up whispering throughout the whole cast, thanks.
Pretty much this for Painuser, IPL sounded it like it was casted by a Day9 and Batman's child. Sorry if it was 'cause of a sorethroat but yeah it was pretty nerve grating.
HD, try to stop saying objectively wrong things. I often wonder if you actually play this game.
During this event, the statement you made that made me groan was something along the lines of "the concussive shells are doing so well against these tanks!". I know you meant to just say the marauders are ripping the tanks apart. But, c'mon, man... concussive shells slow enemies down. Sieged tanks are completely unaffected by anything that reduces movement speed.
And this isn't a new thing. I've noticed for a long time that you often get really excited and make statements that are just incorrect. And I don't mean subjectively incorrect. I mean you say things that are outright wrong when it comes to the basic rules of the game. Like you once (Destiny vs Honor on Shattered Temple, I think) said that you were surprised at the lack of forcefields against an ultralisk based army. Ultras are massive and crush forcefields as soon as they touch them. That kind of slip up should not happen, let alone happen nearly every game I see you cast.
PainUser occasionally speaks as if he's batman which, to me, often results in a reduction in how epic what's happening is. You two interrupt each other a lot which after repeatedly happening can be frustrating, not from a viewer perspective, but a human perspective--it's a very "Just let him say what he's trying to fucking say ok?" moment, even if what whoever is speaking is saying is relevant or not.
For HD, I'm not totally sure what to critique yet. Mmmm, probably something along the lines of just letting your analogies roll. Often times throughout the IPL you made a somewhat long-winded analogy for something, but realized that a couple parts didn't make much sense, so you corrected them midway through, which dragged it on longer, and by the end it was just really awkward.
The one that springs to mind is the "Empty reserves, close to empty reserves" analogy of I think Nestea? That got dragged on a bit.
We get it, you don't have to make perfect sense, just roll with it, I would rather poke fun at your analogies and not the way you're delivering them. On one hand you have a funny quirk that people will recognize you for, on the other you have something that could use improving.
+1 to the painuser whispering thing. its one thing to do it occasionally when theres like a super surprising strategy and you kind of do it for fun, but alot of times u just dragged it out for a very long time probably without yourself noticing. it might just be your voice dying after casting so much also which is more excusable i guess
To HD, So, I wont tell you how to do your job, because I am not a caster, and don't know excactly how hard it is etc.
What I will do though, is tell you to play the game a bit more. It really does seem that you havent been playing too much since you got the job at IPL, and if you still do, I'd tell you to play random or something. Overall yours and painusers casting is fine, but there's one thing that happens way too much that generally throw the level of a cast to the ground, then stomps on it, and that's saying stuff that is just.. Wrong.
I'm not going to throw up too many examples, but things like.. Yesterday when squirtle and Nestea were playing, you said "Squirtle HAS to take a third soon" - It looks to me like you're watching the timer, and not the actual game. First of all, nestea didn't have a third finished as far as I saw, he was taking it at that point, secondly it looked like squirtle wanted to be agressive with his army advantage - And did not want to be the defender of a third.
Someone said it perfectly in the LR thread: "Painuser speaks as if he is telling a secret". I noticed it during the first game he casted and from then on it became more and more annoying.
As for HD - he once said in a cast "he got molestered" (yes, molestered, i'm 100% sure) and right then and there i acquired the useful skill to ignore everything he says.
As a casting duo they are far from what i'd call "good".
You guys have improved alot. As others have said play the game yourself more. But tbh I don't get these people who are here to give feedback and throw examples of you saying one thing wrong in a 30minute game. It's just... All the commentators do it all the time, but you don't here them bitching if tastless fucks up something.
Wow. I thought I was the only one annoyed by the whispering thing from Painuser. I thought it was really awkward that he even did it in the start of the game when nothing yet had happened.
I think you both did a good job, you are both entertaining casters, with good chemistry.
But as many others have pointed out I wish the pure game knowledge was higher, explain gas timings, why did he build that and not that, pay attention to minimap and productions tab etc.
Stop reading and making feedback threads, seems to make you seem more self-consious. Or just do personal streaming more and deal with the hate on a more regular day basis. Haters gonna hate, yo.
I think it's a really nice idea of you to make this kind of feedback.
I'll got to the actual content now.
Casting around the game
I personnaly disapprove about certain of your choices concerning the casting "around the game". By that I mean player and matches introductions. I think you could do a lot of a better job with that part. For a start, I think telling the crowd to make some noise is actually bad. If the event is good enough and if your passion is strong enough, you'll be able to make the crowd cheer by itself - much like any Stephano | MMA (tournament) victory when people cheer a lot by themself without being told to do so. Telling them to make some noise feels really artificial, and I'm sure it doesn't improve the overall excitment.
Besides that, I think you guys could choose a lot of differents hindsight when going on the introduction of a match. What you do pretty much is to talk about how good the people who are about are to play and try to go for an outcome prediction. Even if I think that's fine, I'm pretty sure you could find some original ways to introduce the match. Try to approach innovative angles, try to make analogy, to use metaphors, any techniques that make understand people why this match is crucial and why the hell they should get nerd chills. I think that would work much better than the "X is the best [Terran | Protoss | Zerg] in the world right now".
Casting in the game
During the game, a lot of improvements are to be made in my humble opinion. First, try to notice what's going on, in order to avoid wrong statements ("Nestea is not making a spire right now..." while he is). These casting erros are not really annoying but for an experienced viewer it feels like there is not really a need for casting.
Then, you should really try to go further in your analysis / predictions. I think your just scratching the edge of stuff instead of going in the core of it, that you are neither complete nor precise about your understanding of what is going on. Artosis, for example, when he casts, rarely miss what the players are doing and can tell you precisely what is happening (number of gates,of units, composition, advantages and drawbacks of the strategy, risky or not ...), and that, adding the fact that he knows the strategy used on the map and the style of the pgamers he casts, allow him to actually taech thing to the audience. When I watched your cast, I didn't really learn anything to be honest.
That's it for me . I have no complains to make about the rest ! Sorry if it sounded negative, but I really feel like you guys should and could improve a lot if you really wanted it !
I think PainUser is doing ok, he gives his honest opinion on most of the games, and they end up having relevant details and some legitimacy to it. HD on the other hand seems like he's just repeating what the other caster just said, so I guess he needs to pay a little more attention to it.
Also liked that PainUser cut the chitchat when the game needed attention: I don't mind some banter from time to time (it's more tolerable on regular streams than at a live event, though), but if someone is making a push we should at least know it is happening right now, even if we don't get a detailed analysis on why he did it beforehand.
Please stop using "somehow someway", it's ok if you use it once in a while but you guys keep repeat this phrase every 2 minutes or in every single game when something cool happens.
For me a big ting in the IPL4 was that the two of you didn't use the information you were given by your observer. He would show you a timing, or an upgrade advantage or a proxy pylon; something key and you would ignore it. Sure, when the observer is that good the viewer doesn't lose out if you don't mention it but for your casts in the future I would suggest keeping an eye on those things. General game knowledge is a big thing as well, you shouldn't both be play by play guys. I'm pretty sure you both know the game well enough to sit down and explain why one choice is made rather than another, that is a big deal in these games less so than telling me that a fight is going to go one way or another, I'm watching the same fight as you and my knowledge in that respect is as good as yours because a fight is easy to read. It is in the development of strategy that a caster should shine. Tell me why the zerg went for an 11 overpool instead of a 15 hatch 14 pool. Explain the metagame and the thought involved in decisions, not just the direct and obvious results of the decision.
HD please check your facts, stating that "lately Stephano has started incorporating ultras in his lategame like Idra does" is not excusable, it is your job to know about the players you are casting. Same with painuser saying "Stephano's best matchup is ZvT", when you don't know just don't say anything.
Great performance this IPL. I found some calls to be quite odd but I can't really comment on that since they ought to know better than me :D
I feel PainUser did his most "fluent" casting to date, and HD worked surprisingly well with Apollo (but I guess both HD and Apollo can work well with almost anyone).
my advice to both of you, is to play play and play more, get better at this game. only then, can you make the right calls. for example in one of the games, i believe was bomber vs squirtle, painuser was saying "the terran does not have the second gas, so i think we can assume there will be no banshees" but the big problem is that the timing was still premature for the 2nd gas to be built, usually for banshee timings, it will be build after the factory is built, but ur statement was said before the factory was down"
Theres several things that I disliked during your casts.
- The amount of game knowledge the two of you had seemed extremely limited, you said wrong things a lot of the time. - Stop using abbreviations all the time or old names, no one else does it with the same things like "Bling", "Comsat" those are the two that i can think off the top of my head. - Painuser needs to stop clapping right infront of the mic whenever something happens, its very annoying, same goes whenever he wants the crowd to cheer he just raises his hands contiously. - Lack of player knowledge, its understandable if you don't know much about the more unknown koreans like Squirtle, but during one cast that were with painuser or hd with another caster, he was pointing out how bomber was inconsistent, then one of you guys are like "Yeah Squirtle really needs to prove it today", these mistakes happen A LOT, you don't know much about the players, the big names like Bomber, everyone knows bomber is inconsistent, but you don't?
Overall the things that annoy me the most is the lack of game and player knowledge.
Overall, i think the guys make a okey job. You are better than the avarage joe online caster but not on a tastosis/day9 level. What makes me way more sad is that there was so many "easy" or "noob" mistakes like call the wrong player because they changed colours (i think it was mma against polt but not sure), or just say wrong things which a silver league player can see.
And the production was not on a level which these event (and the money puted in) deserves. The GSTL disco, the IP fail, shots on the crowd in battles (yea you have an amazing camera crane but i want to see starcraft) or the zooming in and out to the players the whole time.
Above all, improve your game knowledge (play more yourself!). Second, you need to try to make the commentary more diverse. I hear about gas all the time, every time. It's good, gas is important and dictates the flow of a game significantly, but what about, say, expansions? I rarely hear you talk about a zerg not having a 3rd hatch at 10min, or greedy play, or overlord scouting paths, or late tech, or weaknesses in defense... there is so much to talk about (more than you have time) and your job is to spot the most important and talk about it, and not go over the same stuff in every game
you guys realize PainUser was a semipro? and terran at that. him saying about no early second gas no banshee was completely right call, as was seen later on. bronzies shouldn't teach high masters how to call something, okay?
so much hate on the casters, even the absolute best ones are not immune, so what can guys from IPL expect... keep trying and working hard, that is all, loved your event.
On April 09 2012 19:03 Hiea wrote: - The amount of game knowledge the two of you had seemed extremely limited, you said wrong things a lot of the time.
On April 09 2012 18:56 littlemozart7 wrote: my advice to both of you, is to play play and play more, get better at this game.
just lol. i could see this going @ HD, but for PainUser......... lol.
One of my biggest gripes with your casting as a pair is that at times you don't seem to be listening to each other. The number of times one of you (mainly HD) would just repeat something the other had said as though it was something completely new was way too high.
I was the one along with a few others shouting for you to stop saying stuff when the game is paused and the booths are open...
And I was shouting audibly for 2 whole throat-busting minutes. You're in your own little bubble when you cast and you don't acknowledge the existence of anything.
On April 09 2012 19:31 snailz wrote: you guys realize PainUser was a semipro? and terran at that. him saying about no early second gas no banshee was completely right call, as was seen later on. bronzies shouldn't teach high masters how to call something, okay?
so much hate on the casters, even the absolute best ones are not immune, so what can guys from IPL expect... keep trying and working hard, that is all, loved your event.
On April 09 2012 19:03 Hiea wrote: - The amount of game knowledge the two of you had seemed extremely limited, you said wrong things a lot of the time.
Less Diane Sawyer fake-dramatic-mode please. You don't need to quiet down your voice and act like you're talking to a little toddler to create a sense of tension and suspense when there is no tension and suspense in the actual game.
Coming from the perspective of someone who watched BW, you're boring. There's so little energy in most SC2 casting, and you guys seem to have less than most. You can get excited, talk fast, and yell about what's happening while still having a high level of analysis.
On April 09 2012 19:53 ProxyKnoxy wrote: A bronze player could tell that no early 2nd gas = no banshee. Just saying, but seeing as he used to be a pro he doesn't have great game knowledge.
i was refering to the guy that said PainUser was wrong about saying "it will most likely be hellions because second gas is late which means no banshees", even though he was completely right in his "call"
and no, i completely disagree. a guy is on ITG on weekly basis, representing the terran side alongside idra and incontrol for zerg and protoss respectively. it's a show about balance, more or less. so saying he's not knowledgable is ignorant, i am sorry.
also, even to date he goes through few rounds in MLG open bracket before elimination, even tho he is caster first player second. that's impressive man, which ever way you look at it. i can't except anyone below semi-pro status critizing his game knowledge... you don't get good at this game without knowing your shit. it's simple as that.
and no i'm not PainUser fanboy, in fact i kinda hated him for what he did to Boxer at NASL S1 (no show incident). but you can't deny he knows his stuff. you can dislike his style, whispering, voice, casting chemistry, looks, but not game knowledge.
situation like these is why guys like Destiny make fun of people in chat after a game, because even though you think you know better than a (semi)pro, you actually don't, and they really don't need you to tell them what they did wrong, because 9 out of 10 cases it will be wrong and you won't even realize it...
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
kind or hard to know whats happening and which upgrades/tech is being built without them turned on. Having them turned off so you dont know shit is retarded imo
Take a diction class. Stop mispronouncing words. Quite honestly have not heard anyone butcher the English language as hard since kelly was casting for GOM.
The most important thing for me is that the casters are able to deliver good analysis and also that they have more knowledge about the game than an averagely interested sc2 fan. I think that HD's knowledge of the game is very bad, I don't have any idea how since he has been casting and watching so many games and sure he has improved but still he does a really bad job analyzing the game. The + is that you are alive during the casts, you have passion for the game but other than that you really have to sit down and study this game cause honestly even the viewers know more than you.
Painuser is an enigma, I really like the dude but sometimes he comes up with insane stuff. Like in the game between Nestea and Squirtle on Antiga when Nesta cancels his gold hatch since he was banking on Squirtle FFE (forge fast expanding) but when he scouts the GW (gateway) expand there is no chance that Nestea gets away with that so he is forced to cancel the gold and put down expand at the natural (it's all obvious to the point of the extremely obvious). I can understand that HD was extremely shocked since he can't understand the game but I was really disappointed with Painuser even being more shocked. Sure fatigue and pressure can cause stuff like this to happen...
Every one makes mistakes and there is always a chance to improve. The important thing here is that you have to know what your flaws are and work on removing them. Study and talk to other casters like Apollo (who is for me the best caster atm) for example. Why do I spend so much time writing this? Why do I care so much? I really like you guys, great personalities but it hurts to hear so many bad analysis from a viewers point of view.
Who told you guys that one gas is proof of no banshee play? I could go into detail, but if it would be so simple, it'd be really easy to read the game. I didn't hate the casting, but I didn't like it either.
There were lots of wrong calls or assumtions about the game. In my opinion, besides doing your homework on players, you should talk more about what the possibilities of the players are, what they could do to come back or work around a tricky situation. From someone like PainUser who actually played on a good level, I'd expect for a bit deeper analysis rather than explaining what everyone can see.
I also have the feeling that largely casters from the US shy away from calling out something not well done and tend to use superlatives quiet often. (best ...., huuuuuuuuuge, amazing, beautiful) when its actually not quiet game changing. If a fungal hits 10 marines, good. If there are 10 medivacs around and no support for that fungal... not so huge.
Anyways its not always easy to have a good casting performance. If you try to get more information and a bit better teamcasting (1 analytical, 1 doing the more obvious, fight-commentary etc) it would be already a lot better. And I'd rather go for not calling a situation than calling it wrong.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
kind or hard to know whats happening and which upgrades/tech is being built without them turned on. Having them turned off so you dont know shit is retarded imo
I have to say, that's an interesting stance towards watching the games! I'm not sure how many people here are with you on the same page. I myself, really want to see the workers tab regularly. Units tab/Food count are the most signifikant statistics if you just wanna see on a glance whos ahead. I often flick out and in of matches and I'm mainly interested to whos ahead, so I really want to see those stats. I also usually stop watching a match if I'm sure its over.
I think that HD, like Husky, is one of themore casual casters. A tournament like IPL is mainly watched by "harcore" fans which demanded casting like dApollo does it, super in-depht. Just not a perfect selection of casters it seems. Ohwell.
HD was actually the first caster I ever saw on YouTube. And the casting back then was good enough for me to actually watch the videos. HD soon lead to Husky. Husky then lead to TeamLiquid. TeamLiquid lead to Tastosis and Day9. I'm not saying you need to be as Tastosis or Day9, but there's a huge difference.
I actually do like some of PainUsers points. Being a protoss player myself I will actually not notice some key choices in some Z or T builds. But that being said I think PainUser is a weird combination of play-by-play and an expert. Where someone like Artosis, MrBitter and Apollo is fine not talking as much - but actually saying only what is expected of them, when explaining complex strategies, build orders, unit/building placements etc etc.
HD on the other hand is obviously play-by-play. And as mentioned he was the first guy to actually get me fascinated with watching starcraft instead of just playing it. However where alot has changed I feel HD hasn't been able to keep up with neither the metagame nor the quality which is increasing constantly.
Sorry to say guys. But you're a weird combo and there's quite a few combos I'd prefer out there :'/
Edit: I forgot to mention... Casting is one thing another thing is chemistry. It's obvious you guys know eachother and you're able to kid around like Tastosis. That's actually quite good I like to hear casters enjoying themselves and their co-caster
On April 09 2012 18:44 NeonFox wrote: HD please check your facts, stating that "lately Stephano has started incorporating ultras in his lategame like Idra does" is not excusable, it is your job to know about the players you are casting. Same with painuser saying "Stephano's best matchup is ZvT", when you don't know just don't say anything.
This is indeed a big deal.
This is always the most frustrating thing as a viewer to hear, statements that simply aren't true and never were.
Terrible, absolutely terrible. I muted the stream or listened to the Koreans every time either of you was casting. I'm simply astonished at how so many second-rate casters like you two have appeared to have gotten worse over time. I'm holding back a lot of my criticism because I don't want to get banned for being to "mean", but let me just say that if you truly want to be professional casters then you need to start acting like it. You need, no you must first of all get to high masters rank (on NA server anyways). That right off the bat should help your casting immensely. You need to start treating your casting job like you are preparing for a major exam in college (probably a bad example since I know a lot of you casters have little if any college experience). This means studying replays before and after every broadcast, and memorizing specific player quirks, stats, and strats. It's pretty obvious that you all just show up and expect to wing it. I can't believe this laziness is accepted by the sc2 community.
I recommend studying the translated Korean VoDs that have been posted on TL, and trying your best to imitate their casting performance. Enough already with this weak "I don't need to know anything about the game because I'm just the play-by-play guy" excuse crap.
i have kind of an harsh feedback for HD, hope you take it the right way:
try to get more knowledge about scII and players
when casting with painuser, given the disparity of knowlege between you two, it would be smart for you to ask him questions during the cast in order to educate yourself/ the crowd, then listen you are NOT the technical guy, try to play on your strenghts and get the conversation going, painuser has one of the best CVs for an analytical commentator, he'll compensate you very well. instead, in more than one occasion, you said something, painuser corrected you, you didn't listen and went on your way.
note: i invested my time for this feedback not to insult you but because i believe you could with these small changes improve a lot the quality of the show
- Lack of player knowledge, its understandable if you don't know much about the more unknown koreans like Squirtle, but during one cast that were with painuser or hd with another caster, he was pointing out how bomber was inconsistent, then one of you guys are like "Yeah Squirtle really needs to prove it today", these mistakes happen A LOT, you don't know much about the players, the big names like Bomber, everyone knows bomber is inconsistent, but you don't?
.
that was appolo talking about bombers inconsistens and than painuser said " yeah squirtle is a really shaeky protoss"
It's been said by a few before and I'll say it again: HD, your knowledge is not on-par with "high-level" casters like Day9, Apollo, Tasteosis, to an extent Painuser. If anyone's ever watched Day9 at a proper tourney or the GSL with Tasteosis, you'll see them literally pick up on the player getting his gas 30 seconds later, and they'll be able to expand on that and say what implications this might have which is awesome. They are literally able to predict an entire game plan/build based on the tiniest hints, it's amazing to watch.
I'm not saying you should become like this HD, however, greater in game knowledge wouldn't hurt. And for God's sake, please PAY ATTENTION. I saw MKP v MMA where MKP has about 7 marines, 2 helions and getting a starport, and it's obvious it's gunna be some kind of elevator, that Painuser points out after you mention it could be a banshee. That is not really in game-knowledge, just 2 and 2. No co-caster should really have to say that phrase popularised by the GSL (not sure exactly who) "Hold that thought", God that is said alot now If you need to hold that thought, o-co-caster, that means you need to shut the f*** up and look AT THE VIDEO GAME YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID TO WATCH :D You get me? It's ridiculous when a drop is happening and the casters have forgotten, or when suddenly a fusion core is plonked down and no-one notices until the BC arrives. Pay attention
I appreciate your style is not this, and more TotalBiscuit Commentary casual, and that's cool too. But then keep it relaxed man! :D
I think the main thing is to stay relaxed man! The reason you have hundreds of thousands of subs from YouTube, myself included is for that relaxed guy that brings us awesome games. Just pretend you're in your room, and keep it cool. :D
I actually REALLY like your questions to the other caster, whether it be Apollo or Pain. That is a nice and neat idea, keep it up! :D
Edit: After reading some, I gotta admit, whoever said that HD/Husky are more "Gateway casters" ie. they introduce you to the game, is so true.
I think all the criticisms are pretty well warranted here, The one that I want to repeat and will be repeated is know more about the game and the players. I feel like it was really unprepared and a lot of things were just wrong. If you want this to be your job, then please treat it like one. But if you're doing this for fun, well - let someone else who is willing to treat it like a job take it.
On April 09 2012 19:53 ProxyKnoxy wrote: A bronze player could tell that no early 2nd gas = no banshee. Just saying, but seeing as he used to be a pro he doesn't have great game knowledge.
i was refering to the guy that said PainUser was wrong about saying "it will most likely be hellions because second gas is late which means no banshees", even though he was completely right in his "call"
and no, i completely disagree. a guy is on ITG on weekly basis, representing the terran side alongside idra and incontrol for zerg and protoss respectively. it's a show about balance, more or less. so saying he's not knowledgable is ignorant, i am sorry.
also, even to date he goes through few rounds in MLG open bracket before elimination, even tho he is caster first player second. that's impressive man, which ever way you look at it. i can't except anyone below semi-pro status critizing his game knowledge... you don't get good at this game without knowing your shit. it's simple as that.
and no i'm not PainUser fanboy, in fact i kinda hated him for what he did to Boxer at NASL S1 (no show incident). but you can't deny he knows his stuff. you can dislike his style, whispering, voice, casting chemistry, looks, but not game knowledge.
situation like these is why guys like Destiny make fun of people in chat after a game, because even though you think you know better than a (semi)pro, you actually don't, and they really don't need you to tell them what they did wrong, because 9 out of 10 cases it will be wrong and you won't even realize it...
anyhows, that's all from me, greets
BTW on ITG wasn't Painuser the one that was saying about the 1/1/1, "if they don't have cloak, don't get a robo". Sorry but sometimes I do wonder about Painuser... ITG rarely talks about the actual game anyway.
Well if he has good game knowledge then it definitely isn't outside Terran. He may have good knowledge as a player but he isn't doing a good job applying it as a caster.
I was impressed by the way HD and PU behaved in front of the camera. Nice clothes for once, and both made an effort to look at each other as well as the camera, which I found very professional. Especially from HD who I haven't seen much at all.
As for what was actually said during the casting, mistakes have happened, and have been noticed. I don't think anything else needs to be said about those. Please watch out for things like that.
Another thing was perceived lack of analysis. I know PU is knowledgeable about the game, but sometimes it felt like he drifted off into describing what was going on in the game right now, rather than focussing what will be going on in a minute or two, like I would expect an analytical caster to do. It's a small personal annoyance for me. Don't need two people to tell me a drone is going this way, or a pylon is being built, or blink stalkers are blinking. I want someone to focus on upgrades, tech path, and strategy. One of the casters should always be able to say how both players want to win the game, what kind of army they are going to max out on, how they are going to attack, and what the result of a particular engagement means for both players. Solid, basic, strategical analysis.
Not sure if either of them having been casting on Youtube recently, but it definitely seems like being dropped from regular IGN casting has led to a serious decline in their casting abilities and knowledge.
Definitely nowhere near the level that might be expected from IGN's premiere event with a $100k prizepool. Absolutely put to shame by almost all the other casters at the event.
There are a lot of things said here but I just want to say one important thing:
- More study before the events.
Take a three-day break before the events and study the important players and how they play a lot. Get away from the office and do 12 hours of just watching/analyzing and learning the players. This is especially important when there are so many players that you don't know that well.
+ This is something a lot of casters should do before major tournaments.
I think the most important thing is to pay attention to the game and the production tab.
Its completely pointless for HD to talk about 'big roach play at 12 minutes' when Protoss had cut probes at 46 and was doing a 3 immortal timing attack. It was so blatantly obvious that Squirtle was doing this vs Nestea on Daybreak, yet HD kept larping on about a maxed roach timing attack. It would be like talking abouthow a Terran was going to try to defend a roach baneling all in when he had built 6 rax on 1 base.
If you watch Artosis in the GSL, he will be talking about the builds of the players, the implications, the possible followups, and how each player should react. Painuser, being a Terran player, should be saying things like 'the 2 base Thor, Banshee all in' is quite popular amongst Korean players, and the quick double gas after early expand points towards this very much. Instead, we often just here play by play by both cast members, but poorly done because of lack of attention to the production tab and the minimap. Painuser is very good at evaluating situations just gone by though, and thats my favourite part of his casting.
I was surprised to leave the event thinking that PainUser couldnt have had a worse performance. The loads of BS that left his mouth was horrible, you'd think that being a not too old pro-gamer would make your have some understanding of match-situations but even my dog was crinching his teeth at some of your call outs and analysiz.
To be a bit constructive, everything doesnt have to be HUGE, IMPRESSIVE, DIRE, EXTREMELY, QUESTIONABLE when its just regular play with insignificant outcome for the game.
I hope you and IPL take all the criticism to heart and that we dont have to see the two of you back next time, atleast until there's a difference. Practise makes perfect, but only when you know you have LOADS to get better at I suppose.
As a caster it is your main job to know about players playstyles and their results.
Its totally understandable that u cannot know everything about each and every player, but then please:
Dont say stuff that isnt even correct just so that it looks you DO know about those things and you acutally even talked to the players about it when its clearly not the case sometimes. Those are the facepalm moments, Apollo doesnt have those moments because he
a) knows almost everything about them, he does his job b) doesnt lie about things he doesnt know - when he doesnt know he says it or he simply doenst mention it.
Those are things that especially PainUser and HD seem to do wrong a lot - even artosis sometimes does that wrong imo.
Also, the knowledge of some builds is just not there. For instance the cannon at the front of White-ras natural in PvT is a common build on the GM europe ladder, and you could even see Pomi do this at MLG Arena (although its common to do it with nexus first and put the forge at 17 after the first gateway, while white-ra did it in a strange way). Hearing things like "ive never seen this in my life" - "neither did I" just hurts me - and this happens quite regularly in tournaments. Its their job to know those things.
Also, PainUser / HD leak a bit of enthusiasm when they cast. Watch Apollo/CatsPajamas and compare it to PainUser/HD. Its like 2 different levels of casting sadly enough. But thats rly important for live casts as well.
As a casual viewer, I felt like you two were just saying stuff that really doesn't really add to the "show". You don't have to be a transcript for blind people. For casual viewers, you don't have to be technical to be a good caster, but just think about what would be interesting to hear if were you watching yourself. As many people have mentioned already, if you don't know the technical aspect of a certain part of the game, don't mention it. It's annoying when a prediction or analysis is totally off. Also to an extent, being too vague about technical aspects of the game doesn't really add anything.
saying shit like zvp is all about the 12 min roach push is unforgiveable. There are a lot of nuanches that can be studied and saying that just makes one look lazy or unprepared. Muta/infestor/broodlord compositions are rampart. STUDY
I do believe these guys haven't been casting for awhile doing some behind the scenes stuff for IPL so they could be rusty. That being said you guys definitely need to work on it some. Seems like you may be out of the loop with the game lately.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Sounds like you want Totalbiscuit style casting, ie hype and very little knowledge.
I'm totally the opposite and found even I was disappointed with IPL. I know that not every casting duo can be Tastosis, but I just felt the knowledge from the casters was lacking at IPL and often they were making some basic errors. It's fine to make mistakes, but the way you recover from them is what makes it all okay. A light joke or something would be great and casters that have genuine charisma and a good relationship with each other covers up 99.9% of all mistakes imo.
I felt also that the between games, HD spent more time just going 'Can we hear some noise' than the casters actually properly analysing games. I would in fact point towards the mass advert/ kpop playing as a sign that indeed you guys casting didn't actually have a lot of insightful stuff to say. Maybe I am reading a little in between the lines and coming up with something thats not there but it's just the feeling I got.
The whole 'make noise' thing was also probably putting the crowd off more than anything else, like you guys had picked up on the criticism of the crowd and were trying to force them into making noise. Forced enthusiasm is never as good as natural enthusiasm. If the crowd are a bit quiet, you shouting that will not make everything okay, it just highlights it and makes it awkward imo.
I'd say Wolf, DoA and Khaldor good, HD and PainUser not so, I'm sorry to say. CatsPyjamas was decent enough, I'd like to see him casting more with DoA much like the IGN ToC etc as I feel they work pretty well together.
Overall, I'd say I'd like to see you guys working on knowledge and adding in something to the casts that add some of your personality.
What I saw of you guys during IPL4 was the ever annoying/clueless HD and a PainUser who is alright but gets dragged down by his sidekick more than anything else. Hell, you guys have been casting with each other for ages but the pairing PU/Catspajamas was a lot more enjoyable. I don't care if reddit is on some kind of "don't be too harsh on HD" trip - my opinion is that there is no space for HD on the IPL caster desk, as they could easily hire on of the up and coming commentators who are more knowledgable and more enjoyable to listen to. I'd provide feedback normally but this thread has been up for a while now and I see little to no improvement and as it seems, the majority of spectators agrees.
Get your shit together or stop casting, please. For the sake of IPL and all the watchers. I don't even bother to tune into IPL broadcasts because there is a significant chance that HD is casting, which makes me turn off instantly.
disliked the analysis or just general comments from hd that were often just wrong. example : "i dont see a missile turret in his main!"(against cloak banshees) -> missile turret is in the mineral line and the camera shows it.
On April 09 2012 21:59 Mettyman wrote: I love your casting HD. Painuser thinks he knows it all, and he keeps talking so "secretive". I don't like Painuser because of that.
Thats because Painuser knows something, HD just makes stuff up. So the reason Painuser seems like a knowitall is because he spends half his time correcting the stupid wrong things HD says.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Not everyone agrees with the progress bar being off. I seem to remember seeing a poll with it heavily favored to having it on
I have not seen such a poll, but if that is the case, then those people were wrong. It is a fact that uncertainty breeds excitement. I do not watch SC2 games so I can get a better rank in my bronze league by copying stuff I see. I watch it to be entertained and excited.
I'd like to know how you get "entertained" or "excited" if you've already seen the match and you're watching it again.
How do you explain that when OGN broadcast WCG their amazing observer was unaware of the progress bars at first and left them off, and I watched the most exciting series of SC2 ever (for me) between MKP and Hero.
Your study proves nothing, and if you had any awareness of Korean Brood War, you would understand.
I actually prefer the production facility on, and sometimes switch to unit tab, It is a great way to know how the game can progress. You can analysis thing yourself when caster missed it.
So you expect "excitement" when something pop out of nowhere and you are "wow" like DT + stargate play? banshee, tech switch, suddenly appear? lol the caster will most certainly not miss that, and If they miss it, they are bad caster, and I feel like you only want to watch the battle micro and stuff, not how the game going and the decision making by player. Production tab is the most important thing when observing a game. OGN did not turn it on because they do not have experience with sc2, in sc1 there is no technology like that, and their cast is so good because they did not miss a single thing on the map.
I am simply stunned.
Yes, things suddenly appearing are exciting. Why wouldn't they be? Are you aware that top BW observers sometimes hide buildings, units, and do not reveal what is being researched DELIBERATELY in order to promote excitement and suspense?
On October 11 2011 16:36 minhbq299 wrote: I feel like you only want to watch the battle [...] Production tab is the most important thing when observing a game.
I give up. You're a lost cause. Knowing a player is safe or has no chance of winning has no appeal to me. Clearly you only watch pro games to steal builds and timings. Good luck enjoying the speadsheets and powerpoints of life.
And having it as a crutch for garbage poser commentators/observers will only expose the ones who should be kicked out and promote the best observers faster.
I'm also going to have to disagree.
With the production tab on, for example, when you see an army moving out, you can see upgrades finishing up just as they reach the base and appreciate the refinement of the build they are using. Also, if you notice the banked resources each player has, you can also see how fast each of them are rebuilding their army.
It's not a question of removing surprise and excitement. It's the difference between knowing the same information the players know as the players are making their decisions they choose to make.
I also don't understand "knowing a player is safe or has no chance of winning has no appeal" to me. If the players are playing a close game, you won't know if a player is safe or not no matter how much information you have--that's why they're close games.
Without the production tabs, with incomplete information, all you're doing is getting hyped over games that aren't close at all. I agree that it takes away from the games that are blow outs, but then again, you shouldn't be hyped about those games in the first place. (You're just letting yourself be fooled.)
It actually adds so much more to the games that are close and actually deserve your hype and excitement.
I completely disagree with 0neder and the production tabs are definitely necessary and you can definitely cause hype by using it too like for example upgrades.
Two armies are about to collide, one of them has fight deciding upgrades on the way to finish, will the other army attack first or not, will the army waiting for upgrades be able to dodge and avoid it until it's time to strike. Stuff like this can cause hype too.
Causing hype just because you don't know something is just fake hype imo and doesn't feel anything like real hype.
On April 09 2012 21:27 KalWarkov wrote: Dont say stuff that isnt even correct just so that it looks you DO know about those things and you acutally even talked to the players about it when its clearly not the case sometimes. Those are the facepalm moments, Apollo doesnt have those moments because he
It was like a constant stream of this. Painuser talking about Squirtle's impeccable building placement making him immune to all-ins, a game after he was all-ined. HD thinking concussive shells do more damage. HD thinking Nestea's resources were high because of his keyboard and mouse, when his spire had finished building and he was really just saving up to build 10 mutas.
You get away with this stuff when you're just casting on Youtube and probably for 70% of the watchers, because they don't know any better, but it's a major detriment to watching for anyone who understands the game.
On April 09 2012 22:21 drooL wrote: What I saw of you guys during IPL4 was the ever annoying/clueless HD and a PainUser who is alright but gets dragged down by his sidekick more than anything else. Hell, you guys have been casting with each other for ages but the pairing PU/Catspajamas was a lot more enjoyable. I don't care if reddit is on some kind of "don't be too harsh on HD" trip - my opinion is that there is no space for HD on the IPL caster desk, as they could easily hire on of the up and coming commentators who are more knowledgable and more enjoyable to listen to. I'd provide feedback normally but this thread has been up for a while now and I see little to no improvement and as it seems, the majority of spectators agrees.
Get your shit together or stop casting, please. For the sake of IPL and all the watchers. I don't even bother to tune into IPL broadcasts because there is a significant chance that HD is casting, which makes me turn off instantly.
Why are you even talking about reddit?
This is Teamliquid and the things that go on over there shouldn't really affect the opinions here. Just because people on another site wants to tune down the criticism doesn't mean we have to here. Anyways, I missed Day 1 of HD and PU casting so I can't comment on that. But on day 2 and 3 I could really enjoy their casts. Especially when dApollo went up there casting with HD about Nestea vs Squirtle. It was pretty fun hearing HD predict everything right and give good input on how the game would flow. So I didn't really see what the problem was. So the casting on day 1 must have been horrible to get so much bashing because frankly, I never saw the big "HD sucks fire him now IGN and let new casters come such as..." problems that people were coming up with.
Concussive shells doing a lot of damage against the siege tanks. He was referring to the projectiles of the marauders, so nothing wrong there but people might have thought he meant the upgrade, understandable. Saying that Bomber was ahead on bases against Stephano was rather weird but I think he meant that Bomber had the advantage since he was on even bases as the Zerg. Painuser corrected him later on much like Day[9] is doing for djWHEAT and HD agreed with him. So these small faults that I have notices sure can make one irritated, but to say that he shouldn't ever cast again? That seems a little weird. Commentators like JP and djWHEAT are great even though they lack the game knowledge, same for TB. HD got the voice for commentating, I just feel that he needs to give the analysis to the other caster if it isn't his race, i.e Zerg.
If you noticed during day 3 he started to ask a lot more questions to the co-caster about the builds. So I know that he read many comments on what he should improve on. He should cast like he did day 3 and it should be fine for the viewers. I never mute the stream because apparently I can handle a lot more than the majority of people.
Oh, and a note to the organisers: please, please, please,please, please, don't ask the crowd to cheer every other minute. The forced enthusiasm is painful for us to hear, and the crowd can't be arsed either after a while.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
kind or hard to know whats happening and which upgrades/tech is being built without them turned on. Having them turned off so you dont know shit is retarded imo
I have to say, that's an interesting stance towards watching the games! I'm not sure how many people here are with you on the same page. I myself, really want to see the workers tab regularly. Units tab/Food count are the most signifikant statistics if you just wanna see on a glance whos ahead. I often flick out and in of matches and I'm mainly interested to whos ahead, so I really want to see those stats. I also usually stop watching a match if I'm sure its over.
I'm almost entirely sure you're in the minority here. We've had a few threads/polls on it, and most people definitely prefer having the production tab open. I don't want SC2 games because the only way I can get excited is if something surprise me. If that was the case, we'd probably only want TB-style casters, who are very energetic but have limited game knowledge. But we don't. We also want someone who can tell us what is probably going to happen, what the players are attempting to do.
As for the cast.. honestly, I wasn't very impressed. I just think there are a few things that are really annoying that need to be fixed. One of them is PainUsers tendency to almost whisper most of the cast. Like something is constantly about to happen and he needs to keep his voice down so no one finds out. Another is HD's tendency to just.. say stuff. No one doubts PainUsers game knowledge (as far as casters go, at least), so follow his lead when it comes to that.
On April 09 2012 22:21 drooL wrote: What I saw of you guys during IPL4 was the ever annoying/clueless HD and a PainUser who is alright but gets dragged down by his sidekick more than anything else. Hell, you guys have been casting with each other for ages but the pairing PU/Catspajamas was a lot more enjoyable. I don't care if reddit is on some kind of "don't be too harsh on HD" trip - my opinion is that there is no space for HD on the IPL caster desk, as they could easily hire on of the up and coming commentators who are more knowledgable and more enjoyable to listen to. I'd provide feedback normally but this thread has been up for a while now and I see little to no improvement and as it seems, the majority of spectators agrees.
Get your shit together or stop casting, please. For the sake of IPL and all the watchers. I don't even bother to tune into IPL broadcasts because there is a significant chance that HD is casting, which makes me turn off instantly.
Why are you even talking about reddit?
This is Teamliquid and the things that go on over there shouldn't really affect the opinions here. Just because people on another site wants to tune down the criticism doesn't mean we have to here. Anyways, I missed Day 1 of HD and PU casting so I can't comment on that. But on day 2 and 3 I could really enjoy their casts. Especially when dApollo went up there casting with HD about Nestea vs Squirtle. It was pretty fun hearing HD predict everything right and give good input on how the game would flow. So I didn't really see what the problem was. So the casting on day 1 must have been horrible to get so much bashing because frankly, I never saw the big "HD sucks fire him now IGN and let new casters come such as..." problems that people were coming up with.
Concussive shells doing a lot of damage against the siege tanks. He was referring to the projectiles of the marauders, so nothing wrong there but people might have thought he meant the upgrade, understandable. Saying that Bomber was ahead on bases against Stephano was rather weird but I think he meant that Bomber had the advantage since he was on even bases as the Zerg. Painuser corrected him later on much like Day[9] is doing for djWHEAT and HD agreed with him. So these small faults that I have notices sure can make one irritated, but to say that he shouldn't ever cast again? That seems a little weird. Commentators like JP and djWHEAT are great even though they lack the game knowledge, same for TB. HD got the voice for commentating, I just feel that he needs to give the analysis to the other caster if it isn't his race, i.e Zerg.
If you noticed during day 3 he started to ask a lot more questions to the co-caster about the builds. So I know that he read many comments on what he should improve on. He should cast like he did day 3 and it should be fine for the viewers. I never mute the stream because apparently I can handle a lot more than the majority of people.
This. It feels like if people don't have something to freak out about and someone to crucify they aren't happy. Funny how it usually involves reddit.
On April 09 2012 21:59 Mettyman wrote: I love your casting HD. Painuser thinks he knows it all, and he keeps talking so "secretive". I don't like Painuser because of that.
Thats because Painuser knows something, HD just makes stuff up. So the reason Painuser seems like a knowitall is because he spends half his time correcting the stupid wrong things HD says.
lol painuser makes shit up too
i don't mind the casting though but if you don't know what you're talking about then you're probably better of just being a play-by-play caster
The best part is that i seem some ignorant people commenting on the "those concussive shells do soo much dmg"... ´The problem is, he don't mean direct dmg, but rather the dmg they inflict slowing mkp's marines so he can't micro them back in safety at the sigetanks
I also can't listen to HD/PainUser casts, you're just going crazy when you hear so much stuff that is just wrong, you are sitting infront of the pc and say to yourself "wtf is this guy talkin about". Maybe PainUser is decent, can't tell exactly right now, but HD isn't capable of casting high level games, he just has near to no knowledge or experience in sc2.
i knew HD was bad and hadn't improved before the casting even begun. i dont even like him when casting the other ipl events. his voice breaks irritatingly like a 6 year old girl during exciting events and never says anything worth listening to. therefore i muted the stream everytime HD was on. if painuser alone was casting i would have gladly listened and enjoyed the games with sound. a lot of my friends also made tweets and comments about how bad the casting was during the times hd and pu were casting. this made me feel bad for painuser as i felt that hd was just dragging him down. he performs fine when casting with apollo or cpj.
On April 09 2012 21:59 Mettyman wrote: I love your casting HD. Painuser thinks he knows it all, and he keeps talking so "secretive". I don't like Painuser because of that.
Thats because Painuser knows something, HD just makes stuff up. So the reason Painuser seems like a knowitall is because he spends half his time correcting the stupid wrong things HD says.
lol painuser makes shit up too
i don't mind the casting though but if you don't know what you're talking about then you're probably better of just being a play-by-play caster
Well yeah. But its an order of magnitude less than HD. And the stuff HD makes up is often corrected by Painuser.
I can't believe the witch hunt on HDstarcraft, one of the pioneer casters since Beta. He has so much more character than Doa, Wolf, Painuser and CatsPajamas, who are all basically all just Tastosis copy cats/light versions, using catch phrases ("That's SO many _____.... "- yawn ) and shouting really loud. HD brings his own personal approach to casting, being one of the best intermediaries between elite gaming and the mainstream viewer. Everyone here, including HD, knows that concussive shells upgrade doesn't help against tanks. It was a slip up in a tense situation. Stop trying to nit pick everything he says. He could smack most of you around in game, and knows his shit.
Honestly - its just not good enough. If IPL wants to be one of the big NA competitions, it needs good casters. The HD+PainUser pairing is not good. You don't necessarily need the heavyweights of MLG (Day9, Tastosis) to have a good competition, but there's no reason you can't have something competent. There's Bitter/Rotterdam, Husky, Apollo, TB, or DJWheat out there that are actually a draw, plus lesser known guys who do a perfectly reasonable job like Axeltoss, Adebisi, Tumba, Khaldor etc. The CatsPajamas-Doa combination is simply the superior pairing right now, but are portrayed as secondary. I think PainUser might be reasonably good in another pairing, but HD is just bad. I'm sorry if thats dickish, but he's one of only two casters that does major events that makes me turn it off or mute the stream.
PainUser is not bad but he's kind of slow to notice things. he's like 20 seconds behind the game. HD talks out of his ass a lot of times and says things that are just plain wrong.
I believe painuser would be good with another co-caster but I can't say the same for HD. Does HD still play the game? His game insights are just not good at all or he seems to be stuck in 2010.
EDIT: To expand on this, I think PainUser makes an excellent commentary guy and has good insight as pro or maybe now former pro-gamer. It seems like he's trying to do commentary and also play by play and is a little behind the game. He should stick to commentating and maybe have someone like CPJ, who is good at talking, take over the play by play.
The players skill and what they do gets extraordinarily cheapened by painuser and HD.
Its just terrible.
Stop talking in catchphrases (the 12 minute mark roach build *Repeat 500 times*)
Stop reinforcing your bad points HD and Painuser, it shows that you don't know anything
''This is what I was talking about'' ''As I said'' ''And just as I said''
Stop talking about things when you don't know anything, just commentate whats happening.
If you want analyze then say something analytic - Hes going sentry of ffe and is chronoboosting X what options do he have? Rather then - Oh hes probably gona do ''warpgate'' rush and just saying general vauge things.
You talk nothing about what one can transition into when someone uses a build, or its purpose. You make stuff up.
You depend solely on production tab and repeat that and worker count as a mantra to say something intelligent. You do the khaldor syndrome where you speak condescending by using the phrase ''I love that he is doing X'' <- That shit puts you into a mentor positioning rhetoric wise.
You don't contribute anything to each other, you can't hype anything, your jokes are bad and you should feel bad.
And most of all: You haven't improved since you started casting, zip, nada - no readups on players, no casting improvement, HD you are just as terrible as always while others like husky, total biscuit, cats have matured into the really hard role as play by play casters.
Meanwhile PainUser you are just lightyears behind analytic casters like Dapollo <- Especially relevant, day9, artosis. Who have actually studied the players, knows the players.
Some tidbits shined trough, like that tails and nestea had a history, that shit is what is expected of casters at major events aught to know. (Of course both you ruin stuff like that by exclaiming loud and clear that '' Oh I DIDN'T KNOW THAT'' <- You never assure insecurity or not being knowledgeable, it makes you look incompetent''
Your casting cheapened the great skill by players like nestea and drastically reduced the quality of the event.
I think people are being too harsh on HD. He wasn't that bad and I think he forms a good pair with painuser even though he did some uncorrect statement. I think they are taking a lot of blame because of the quality of the event (delay, lot of ad/kpop, missing games) which was really disappointing and the frustration spreaded toward the casters. In overral the casting quality was good. The only thing that i really disliked is the constant request of "applause" and "cheering" to the crowd such as : "give it up for the -insert random thing here-" with the most ridiculous one being "give it up for yourselves". That was really annoying
I think it's all personal preference. For example I can't stand DoA, but some people (for some strange reason) like his casting. I think HD is a good caster, but Painuser should stop talking like he's telling us a secret.
"THOSE CONCUSSION SHELLS ARE DOING SO MUCH DAMAGE"
"He might attack the forge to get in" Forge had no shields left and was being attacked already
Out of the loop. Major improvements are needed for both of them. Painusers whispering, calling an early third a macro CC, asking the crowd to make noise over and over and over again while not actually hyping anything themselves, flat out wrong calls on a lot of stuff among many other issues need to be straightened out.
You know you're not doing a good job when %75 of the viewers switch to the Korean caster stream. Don't know any Korean at all and are far more entertained just by their body language and the excitement that comes through their vocal cords.
Thank god for the awesome observer too. He was the true caster for the HD/PU matches
I am the last one normally to jump on the pitchfork bandwaggon, so constructive criticism is a must!
Honestly, I think the #1 thing that you guys need to find, is a grove like the way catspajamas and apollo had last night. One person is providing strict play-by-play and then ONLY focus on that. The other needs to focus entirely on analytics, and then focus time on IMPROVING that. Nether one of you are doing those, you just have this "jack of all trades" style, and it ends up making you not the best at ether. I was finding myself constantly out analyzing both of you, and frankly the observer was providing better play-by-play than both of you. If you guys aren't using a setup similar to the GSL, where the play-by-play guy has the observer's cam directly fed into their monitor, then you might consider just screen locking on him. Its going to provide you with a MUCH better idea as to what we are actually seeing as viewers, and what needs to be "dumbed down." If you really want to take some time to learn from a great duo, TotalBiscuit and DApollo are an absolutely incredible duo to learn from as far as both ends. Even my girlfriend, who knows very little about sc2, states that TB is probably the best play-by-play caster because he explains things down to her level, which is something you guys need to look into in the IPL. If these shows are going to keep happening in Vegas, there will be a continual increase in people who aren't "hard core starcraft2 fans" and there needs to be the commentating abilities to keep them entertained to invite more of their friends.
Also, there is a time to fill in a game with stories, and there is a time where you need to absolutely shut that story off and TALK ABOUT what is going on. There should not be a story about pokemon when ANY form of battle is going on. >< >< ><
I think if you guys improve those qualities, then you will be a GREAT duo! Its just that right now, you guys are providing nether forms of casting to a level that people expect from a league such as IPL.
Oh gawd, they were horrible!! Even when it was clear 1 guy was completely winning, they kept annoyingly talked about how close the game was. We aren't fools you know. I can also recall this one game where Apollo and HD were casting. HD said they squirtle was doing the same robo build as before. Apollo corrected him by saying no it's not due to the earlier gas timings and building order - turned out it was a DT build. HD is such a tool.
I think HD and Painuser have developed well as casters. Both are very knowledgeable about the game and they both get pretty excited when really awesome stuff happens (shoutcast role) so all in all I think they are great and doing a fantastic job
I think PainUser was great as always.. lol @ the "telling us a secret" type casting.. pretty funny comment.. I agree that he has some parts like this.. but, I thought it was great.. slow down, emphasize certain parts.
My favourite line of his in IPL4 was.. well, I forget the game exactly.. TvT I think.. bomber/mma, mma/marineking, something like that.. anyway, there was a drop or something in the main, distracting the one player, giving him time to move with his tanks and army directly into the natural.. HD commented about "maybe giving up an important position.." then PU responds by saying: "giving up an important position.. is in UNDERstatement.
Haha, anyway.. that was great.. hopefully I can find the VOD for that game.. great job to both HD and PU though.
One of the things that bothers me most about casting is when the commentators say something that happened and try to say a deeper analysis that is just not there. In particular, I remember a football game where after a sack occurred, a caster said that getting sacks and forcing turnovers is a great way to slow down an offense ESPECIALLY against the Packers(think it was them playing). I would like him to point out a team it WASN'T an effective way to play defense. I particularly hate the word especially as it tends to signify that the casters have run out of things to say, and every time I hear it, I start to cringe.
Watched games 3-5 of the losers final on the korean stream, as it was much more enjoyable.
In the first game of the series between Nestea and Squirtle, I felt like you guys had absolutely no clue what was going on in the game. It was like you'd never seen Nestea's 10 pool 18 hatch strategy before, or you didn't realize that he cancelled his gold expansion because he had scouted that Squirtle wasn't doing a FFE. Painful to watch.
i have to admit i just mute the stream as soon as i hear hd is commentating, its so low level. for the most part of what ive heard of him at ipl4, he's analytical and actuall game knowledge is non exsisting. if he tries to say something that isnt play by play related its usually wrong, and my ears bleed every time. He's excitement in he's casting sounds to me very fake, or atleast unnatural. As for the duo Painuser and HD, there is absolutely no chemistry, humor or connection with the crowd, which for me would have been okey if their gameknowledge was top notch, but it isnt. Painuser is okey i guess, he knows a bit about the game, but not enough to cover for he's generally boring casts.
I think a big factor is their showing of personality. Either its just flat out boring personalities, or they arent giving enough of their selves.
Now i have no clue how much they prepare for an event like this, but basing my guess on what ive watched this weekend, it cant be more than a couple of hours.
Sometimes it might be better to correct yourself if or when action just slows down and you made a small mistake beforehand. Kind of like if you said "eg concussive shells are doing so much damage", you should correct yourself or elaborate on what it does and what you meant by the statement.
If by now u don't know why, than fuck it, you are a lost cause. Painuser would be much better without HD. I see no way u can improve HD, and i don't understand why u were hired in the first place. They should fire the guy that hired and kept you for this long. This wasn't meant to bring you down or to insult you, but I'm sick of listening to you. U keep killing the joy of watching for me to the point i mute the sound of the stream. I can cheer you up by saying you are not the only one caster that doesn't know shit about the game and doesn't improve over time, but you were the only at IPL.
I personally don't like the way Painuser talks to the audience like they don't understand things. Bringing his speech down to the "telling a secret" voice is almost condescending in a way, imo.
The mis-calls and general lack of game knowledge are also a turn off, from both perspectives. An overhaul in analytics would be a nice addition.
PU has good inside knowledge and high ladder gaming experience. HD doesn't really have much(or up to date) knowledge of the game but you don't need that to be a successful caster(see TB, DOA, Moletrap)
PainUser stick to game commentary. HD stick to play by play.
one thing that really confuses me is that in the regular stuff in the ipl studios you both tell jokes and giggle and all that stuff that gives both of you personality, but at ipl3 and 4 or in general 'big' events nothing of that happens. its very monoton blabla, i dont give a shit about what you saying, i cant even recall what you were saying after the game because its just too much uninteressting blabla.
maybe you think beeing on a big event means it must be 100% professional, no it doesnt. tastosis joke all the time at gsl finals.
I don't think people fully understand how bad it is when a caster has poor game knowledge and makes frequent bad calls. The job of a caster is to present the game to the audience, not to simply entertain by speaking on stream. HD really needs to make sure he fully understands everything he says before he says it.
On April 10 2012 00:07 zJayy962 wrote: Stop asking the crowd to make some noise holy bajesus! It feels extremely forced and just isn't fun after the first few times.
Edit: thought I'd bold the important part... SO IMPORTANT.
Day[9] does this all the time as well. He doesn't get flames for it. I don't see why HD should be specifically blamed for this. I'm suspecting, that it is probably a request from the organizers (in this case IGN), much like mentioning the sponsors etc.
It must be pretty hard to read all this, but really a lot of people are quite passionate about the games and are willing to invest a lot of time to explain why some caster hasn't managed to meet their expectations.
Definitely the lack of knowledge and flat out wrong knowledge that these two keep putting out is frustrating to listen to. I didn't want to mute the stream because the audio and video make for a full experience but everytime I heard some incorrect game knowledge or guesswork being shot out I cringed and came one step closer to just closing the stream entirely. HD's calls were especially cringeworthy because of how uninformed a lot of them were - my suggestion would be to watch pros play and learn timings as if you were training to be a progamer because as it stands it sounds very very amateur.
Since both casters don't have an exceptional level of insight to offer in addition to being wrong a lot of the time, the viewers grow to accept them as unreliable and don't trust any of their calls anymore ( at least that's what i went through) and this is definitely not what a caster wants the listener to feel.
Please update your knowledge of the meta and do your research on the players you are casting so you actually exceed the knowledge of the average viewer and subsequently provide something other than random guesswork or stating the obvious.
On April 10 2012 00:21 Jinsho wrote: It must be pretty hard to read all this, but really a lot of people are quite passionate about the games and are willing to invest a lot of time to explain why some caster hasn't managed to meet their expectations.
It's also painful to read this whole thread because you can go back to page 1 and see the exact same complaints have been going on for months. Comparing HD's evolution as a caster to Husky's is an amazing thing. Husky took criticism seriously and worked on his flaws and is now pretty respected in the community.
On April 10 2012 00:07 zJayy962 wrote: Stop asking the crowd to make some noise holy bajesus! It feels extremely forced and just isn't fun after the first few times.
Edit: thought I'd bold the important part... SO IMPORTANT.
Day[9] does this all the time as well. He doesn't get flames for it. I don't see why HD should be specifically blamed for this. I'm suspecting, that it is probably a request from the organizers (in this case IGN), much like mentioning the sponsors etc.
There's a difference in execution to put it that way though. Look how catspajamas hyped up the crowd by actually hyping instead of having to ask the crowd and get less of a response. If you can't pull it off charismatically, don't try at all.
On April 10 2012 00:21 Jinsho wrote: It must be pretty hard to read all this, but really a lot of people are quite passionate about the games and are willing to invest a lot of time to explain why some caster hasn't managed to meet their expectations.
It's also painful to read this whole thread because you can go back to page 1 and see the exact same complaints have been going on for months. Comparing HD's evolution as a caster to Husky's is an amazing thing. Husky took criticism seriously and worked on his flaws and is now pretty respected in the community.
Yeah Husky has been great. I'm kinda thinking HD and Painuser have to do other shit at IGN than just cast. They looked really out of practice. HD in particular should only feel bad about all the hate if he has been putting all his efforts into casting, which is pretty clear that he hasn't.
I'm not too picky about commentators to be honest but I enjoyed your cast. Please be a little more careful about what you say on the loudspeakers in the event of a pause though.
I really don't want to bash specific casters, because apparently they were trying hard and casted as well as they possibly could. But there are two things I really dont like in general:
1. Mindless overhyping of little things. It's an old discussion, but I think that it has to be said once more: I've witnessed about ten thousand beautiful forcefields / fungals / storms / whatever, and only half of them were really decent. Stop hyping everything as if it was the most amazing shit ever. In the end, the really amazing plays won't stand out.
2. Premature calls. I remember the Nestea vs. aLive match on that strange IPL map, where the casters were basically judging almost every aspect of the game wrong. If you're not able to analyze a game correctly in most situations, just don't do it. That's what I really like about Day9's casting, because he is able to use his knowledge to actually say the right things in the right moment. If a caster is unsure about a situation, he just shouldn't pretend knowing everything.
I feel kinda bad about criticizing HD since he was the guy who brought me in to watching professional Starcraft in the first place. However, I think it's quite sad to compare HD's progress to Husky's. A year and a half ago I would definitively prefer HD to Husky, but I feel like HD hasn't progressed at all. Where Husky took peoples' criticism to heart and improved a lot, HD is basically the same caster as he was a year and a half ago. It might be because I know a lot more about the game now than I did back then, but I often find myself very annoyed at HD's ignorance. Truth is he really doesn't know much about the game.
If he just stuck to play-by-play I wouldn't be bothered too much, but HD often tries to analyse things and is often just plain wrong. So HD; if you really want to improve I think the easiest way for you would be to stop analyzing the game. Instead just focus on play-by-play. You have one of the best casting voices imo, and I think it is sad to see your voice "wasted" like this.
On Painuser: When he started casting full-time he was one of my absolute favorite casters. His recent background as a pro-gamer was shown quite clearly in his casting, as his knowledge was very good. I guess since he doesn't play as much anymore, his knowledge of the metagame has fallen quite a lot. At least he seems to be making a lot more wrong calls than he did when he started casting full-time. If he could spend some more time watching GSL/other korean tournaments, I think he could become one of the best analytic casters once again. As of right now there are many casters who know more about the game than PU.
But if there's one thing he can improve on is calling fights as they're occurring on screen. There were just so many times when a large fight would happen and he'd prematurely call it for one player and it would just skew more and more against that player as the fight would go on. The build orders and information gathered from scouts and things like that are all fine. It's just "prematurely calling fights incorrectly" specifically that could use a lot of work.
I don't know what to say about HD that hasn't already been said without just piling on.
i actually like your casting HD, but you do miss quite a lot but you painuser have quite a harsh voice but provide good comments. There was good humor and i liked most of it overall, but keep practicing.
Aside from all the other complaints, HD should stop faking the BW "old school"ism. Still calling Nestea "ZergBong", seriously? (While loudly reminding us that he still remembers him from his "old BW days"). Also, scan still being called "comsats"? It has been more than one year now that HD intensively plays and commentates (or so he should...) Starcraft 2, no way he's seen more games from the mediocre 2v2 B-teamer ZergBong than games from the 3 times GSL champion God of Zerg Nestea... That's like still calling MarineKing "Boxer"...
Nobody's buying that shit, so he should just stop reminding us he was an old school BW follower or something. I'm aware that it's true to some extent (he did commentate some BW games afaik, and was following the BW scene), but no way ZergBong is more memorable than Nestea...
Edit: PainUser on the other hand is a good caster. He miscalls some builds sometimes (he didn't seem to know of MKP's 1-1-1 push with marines, hellions, medivac, calling a switch to a reactored factory even though it's a typical MKP push...), but in general, he's got a good flow, and decent analysis of the game. Keep it up.
1. Too many requests for cheers from the crowd. Having been there live, the really annoying thing is that they essentially ask the crowd to cheer twice for each player. They do a pre-game hype for each player and then in game, they try to do a GSL-like intro of each player. I think it would be better to have fewer, bigger cheers.
2. HD, you need to look more at the camera. Your eyes get really shifty and you look insincere but I think you're just not sure what to look at. When you thank the audience, you need to either make slower eye contact with a few people in the crowd or just look into the camera lens.
3. The content of the casting was really good. I had a couple friends with me who knew very little about StarCraft and they were very complimentary about your professionalism and making things easy to understand.
I felt like PainUser was trying to do something odd with his voice the entire time, it was just awkward to listen to, and y'all never seemed to point out the more important things.
I actually had to mute the game to continue watching the stream.
On April 10 2012 00:07 zJayy962 wrote: Stop asking the crowd to make some noise holy bajesus! It feels extremely forced and just isn't fun after the first few times.
Edit: thought I'd bold the important part... SO IMPORTANT.
Day[9] does this all the time as well. He doesn't get flames for it. I don't see why HD should be specifically blamed for this. I'm suspecting, that it is probably a request from the organizers (in this case IGN), much like mentioning the sponsors etc.
There's a difference in execution to put it that way though. Look how catspajamas hyped up the crowd by actually hyping instead of having to ask the crowd and get less of a response. If you can't pull it off charismatically, don't try at all.
Yeah Day[9] knows how to work a crowd and when to do so. HD was just trying way too hard. If you don't know how to work a crowd properly at an event please don't try because it just gets kind of annoying after a certain point.
On April 10 2012 01:12 ZenithM wrote: Aside from all the other complaints, HD should stop faking the BW "old school"ism. Still calling Nestea "ZergBong", seriously? (While loudly reminding us that he still remembers him from his "old BW days"). Also, scan still being called "comsats"? It has been more than one year now that HD intensively plays and commentates (or so he should...) Starcraft 2, no way he's seen more games from the mediocre 2v2 B-teamer ZergBong than games from the 3 times GSL champion God of Zerg Nestea... That's like still calling MarineKing "Boxer"...
Ah, I forgot this one.
I didn't see all of IPL4, but I do remember the "ZergBong" reference specifically and was thinking the same thing during the cast.
It was like someone trying to unintentionally intentionally name drop a celebrity "they just happened to bump into the other day" during normal conversation to feel more important. It was weird.
I suppose we're all a little spoiled by the great competition.
DoA, CP, dApollo etc. all did such a splendid job, making it easy for you guys to be the bottom of the barrell.
I doubt HD is even reading this, but if he does, I hope he can distinguish between the valid criticism and destructive comments that are just trying to be hurtful.
Doa,pajamas and painuser when he´s not prattling but focusing on the game were the only casters i didn´t mute.i hope ipl will manage to find more casters of their quality.
On April 10 2012 01:40 kafkaesque wrote: I suppose we're all a little spoiled by the great competition.
DoA, CP, dApollo etc. all did such a splendid job, making it easy for you guys to be the bottom of the barrell.
I doubt HD is even reading this, but if he does, I hope he can distinguish between the valid criticism and destructive comments that are just trying to be hurtful.
Considering CP is usually used in place of child pornography, might want to just call him CatsPajamas :p lol
On April 10 2012 01:12 ZenithM wrote: Aside from all the other complaints, HD should stop faking the BW "old school"ism. Still calling Nestea "ZergBong", seriously? (While loudly reminding us that he still remembers him from his "old BW days"). Also, scan still being called "comsats"? It has been more than one year now that HD intensively plays and commentates (or so he should...) Starcraft 2, no way he's seen more games from the mediocre 2v2 B-teamer ZergBong than games from the 3 times GSL champion God of Zerg Nestea... That's like still calling MarineKing "Boxer"...
Nobody's buying that shit, so he should just stop reminding us he was an old school BW follower or something. I'm aware that it's true to some extent (he did commentate some BW games afaik, and was following the BW scene), but no way ZergBong is more memorable than Nestea...
Edit: PainUser on the other hand is a good caster. He miscalls some builds sometimes (he didn't seem to know of MKP's 1-1-1 push with marines, hellions, medivac, calling a switch to a reactored factory even though it's a typical MKP push...), but in general, he's got a good flow, and decent analysis of the game. Keep it up.
And who says comsat instead of scans in BW anyway? All I hear is "SCAN SCAN SCAN" during Proleague. Comsat Station and thats the addon, thats it. And since there is no comsat station in sc2 then the word comsat should never be mention either. Wierd.
On April 10 2012 01:12 ZenithM wrote: Aside from all the other complaints, HD should stop faking the BW "old school"ism. Still calling Nestea "ZergBong", seriously? (While loudly reminding us that he still remembers him from his "old BW days"). Also, scan still being called "comsats"? It has been more than one year now that HD intensively plays and commentates (or so he should...) Starcraft 2, no way he's seen more games from the mediocre 2v2 B-teamer ZergBong than games from the 3 times GSL champion God of Zerg Nestea... That's like still calling MarineKing "Boxer"...
Nobody's buying that shit, so he should just stop reminding us he was an old school BW follower or something. I'm aware that it's true to some extent (he did commentate some BW games afaik, and was following the BW scene), but no way ZergBong is more memorable than Nestea...
Edit: PainUser on the other hand is a good caster. He miscalls some builds sometimes (he didn't seem to know of MKP's 1-1-1 push with marines, hellions, medivac, calling a switch to a reactored factory even though it's a typical MKP push...), but in general, he's got a good flow, and decent analysis of the game. Keep it up.
And who says comsat instead of scans in BW anyway? All I hear is "SCAN SCAN SCAN" during Proleague. Comsat Station and thats the addon, thats it. And since there is no comsat station in sc2 then the word comsat should never be mention either. Wierd.
I think he calls the Orbital command the "Comsat station". Pretty much impossible to do so, but he still does it.
I'll try to keep this constructive, despite being extremely disappointed with HD (as usual).
1. To put it mildly, HD's game-awareness is lacking. Not seeing things being built (hatches, turrets, etc), seemingly unable to put together why Nestea would be stockpiling mins and gas (hint: lair was about to pop), and just flat out missing blatantly obvious occurrences -- all of these negatively affected my IPL4 experience when he was casting. It was distracting, unprofessional and unacceptable at an event of this stature.
2. I know humor is subjective, but HD's plastic, generic jokes and delivery are unwanted and painful (for me).
3. The constant "give a cheer" is beyond exhausting. It robs the crowd of any natural momentum and forces an awkward and forced expression of excitement. Let the crowd cheer on their on. Seriously. I promise. They will not disappoint.
4. To be frank, HD was simply shown up by everyone else at the event. I'm not even the biggest fan of PainUser or CatsPajamas but they were leagues better than HD, and Apollo is so far ahead of them all in terms of analysis, flow, and coherence that he should instantly be given a raise. When you're the worst caster, by far, at a prestigious event, you need to begin working harder.
That being said, I loved the event and enjoyed the games very much. I genuinely hope IPL will take action to either create a do-or-die incentive for HD's job at the next event, or hire a superior caster.
Painuser needs to stop wispering to the crowd in his raspy voice (not sure if he's sick or what), and just talk normally. I know hes trying to add suspense to the games, but it gets a bit annoying after a while.
I really enjoyed the casting and the throughout the event. Not sure how I feel about Wolf and Khaldor as this is the first time I had heard them cast. But I felt the same way about Doa and CatsPajamas at first and I really enjoy them now.
i think the common trend here is that there's two dimensions really, game knowledge, and charisma. One is fixable/trainable, the other is not. Sadly though if you lack the charisma it doesn't matter. As esports progresses we really can't be dealing with such awkwardness. It was honestly palpable throughout most of the casting/broadcast
I think you have the potential to be a great caster, your voice is silky smooth for one, but you really have to spend more time analysing games and build orders if you going offer up analysis during casts. The "theorycrafting" you offered up during this tournament was wrong as often as it was right and it is just grossly irritating. So unless you are 99% sure about what you are saying is correct just do play by play. If you care about improving, I would suggest you watch the GSL, take notes about builds and about players styles that you can refer to before you are due to cast matches with those players. Also do more recent replays for your youtube channel. I mean I saw that you cast the ASUS ROG final on your youtube channel last week or so. That tournament was ages ago and you should at least know the result if you didn’t watch it, so why are you casting it? It just smacks of laziness to me, surely you can get your hands on more recent replays that people havent seen before?
Oh and "problemsome" isn’t a word (you're use of it during the Nestea Squirtle match made me cringe) and the past tense of cast is cast not "casted" (most Americans seem to struggle with this for some unknown reason but to someone from the UK it sounds pretty bad).
Man there are a lot of haters here. Yes HD has some HD-isms, but he isn't trying to be fake about anything, its just quirks he has. If you didn't like the awkward clap thing or attempting to get the audience riled (because they weren't doing shit as an audience, they were watching but cheering only when things happened, never before matches without some coercing), even if it was meant in a good way, thats fine and your opinion is valid. However that isn't a casting feedback. Yes HD was some plasticy jokes, and his old subs love most of them lol, but if its not your thing, fine you can dislike that part of his casting, but that most likely will never change since its a little quirk that he has indulged for a long time now, still not about the casting seemingly.
Also a sidenote: really you guys are butthurt about ZergBong? thats just destructive, he mentioned the past because it happened and he was a pro, and he didn't stay on it for a while. Now my question is why he didn't call MKP Claire[shield] or EllenPage[shield]. Its not that he is trying to old school us, just mention a little factoid.
IN GAME> You guys need to get in the game, you missed builds, called things late, said people were back in the game when they really weren't. For HD, you need to, ABSOLUTELY NEED TO get builds right and the flow of the game correctly monitored. You cannot let things happen like, Idk why he is saving up min and gas, right before on the status completion bar it says spire about to finish and lair has been finished for a while. You need to be on the ball, your previous casters were great, you need to be just as good. All the stuff i said can be remedied by watching the builds of all the participants and having increased map awareness . For Painuser, its about the same. You guys collectively missed a lot and it was disheartening, but I still enjoyed the cast, especially for the fact my fav protoss was in it .
On April 10 2012 01:59 ETisME wrote: Please read the game better, it would solve so much issue
This was something that struck me as odd throughout the casts. Regularly they would be grossly incorrect about a battle, one in particular revolved around blink stalkers vs roaches and the blink stalkers weren't grossly outnumbered.
Blink stalkers rape roaches, badly. It's a one-sided face smashing at near equal numbers.
And yet they were questioning whether the protoss was going to be able to kill them all off. I barely play the game anymore and the out-come of battles is easily evaluated from an observer's point of view--we have all the information, it should be easy to determine.
So far this weekend there was like, literally one fight where I was surprised they lost, I don't recall who it was between but it was two koreans, Protoss had a sick colossi / speed zealot / sentry / high templar force VS MMM from terran with a ghost here or there, the protoss was doing a sick job avoiding emp's but one just randomly hit them and the terran army rolled over the toss army with almost no casualties. I didn't see that coming.
But really basic things like, having 5 immortals in a stalker army vs primarily roaches--you don't question who's going to win that fight, immortals tear through roaches, protoss isn't losing that battle.
No matter what someone says, people are going to have differing opinions on what think of your casting.
IMO what is most important for casters, is to be confident and bring the crowd into the matches. If the casters are happy and the crowd is happy then the viewers will be happy. Just act natural and you guys will be even better next time.
Work better with your partners!!! I feel that you, HD, constantly contradict your casting partner. Whether it be dApollo or PainUser or whoever, once they say something, later in the cast you say something totally different. Not only that but you constantly turn to your partner and say something like "one gas, tell me about that ______" (you repeat "tell me about that" a lot too, change up vocabulary please) and then you don't have any knowledge whatsoever.
You're also really stubborn with your analysis. For example, you constantly said how NesTea would undoubtedly go for the 200 max roach push at 12:00 and that "everything is pointing to it." He did not do it for most of his games, yet at the beginning of almost every one you mentioned it and how good it is and that everyone needs to do it. Make a proper analysis first then explain what strategy it can be. Just because something is good doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen.
For both of you guys, please pay attention to the game a bit more. Be more active with the production tab and the minimap. You guys neglected most of it. For instance, when someone is going for an all-in, at least mention it before it's already killing the other player.
TL;DR - HD: work better with casting partners, learn the strategies of match-ups other than ones with zerg in it, actually analyse games and don't assume. - HD and PainUser: Just watch what's going on a bit closer
On April 10 2012 01:40 kafkaesque wrote: I suppose we're all a little spoiled by the great competition.
DoA, CP, dApollo etc. all did such a splendid job, making it easy for you guys to be the bottom of the barrell.
I doubt HD is even reading this, but if he does, I hope he can distinguish between the valid criticism and destructive comments that are just trying to be hurtful.
Considering CP is usually used in place of child pornography, might want to just call him CatsPajamas :p lol
WTF, Dude!!! That is the last thing I would think CP stood for. Freaking weirdo.
On April 10 2012 01:40 kafkaesque wrote: I suppose we're all a little spoiled by the great competition.
DoA, CP, dApollo etc. all did such a splendid job, making it easy for you guys to be the bottom of the barrell.
I doubt HD is even reading this, but if he does, I hope he can distinguish between the valid criticism and destructive comments that are just trying to be hurtful.
Considering CP is usually used in place of child pornography, might want to just call him CatsPajamas :p lol
WTF, Dude!!! That is the last thing I would think CP stood for. Freaking weirdo.
yeah no kidding.. immediately thought catspajamas before that post.. weird.
Personally I found them all pretty terrible apart from Apollo and CatsPajamas, pajamas who i'm not a huge fan of but he's clearly competent at the job and that's just my personal distaste. The other 4 are just not good commentators, Wolf has the game knowledge but treats everything like he's too cool for school except when he's emulating some tastosis thing, while the rest just repeatedly say dumb things and have the charisma of a dead porpoise.
Honestly though I don't expect things to change ever, it appears the only people who are interested in commentating consistently enough to get noticed are the blandest people alive who are willing to sell out any semblance of a personality in order to satiate their endless bloodlust for attention. Luckily for them the SC2 community as a whole has the same soul destroying mentality when it comes to mainstream acceptance so it's a convenient fit.
If you're ever wondering what terrifies the fighting game community about esports, it's pretty much exactly this.
since my thread got locked and 'Chill' gave me a stupid analogy to a new movie (lol), I'm posting here.
I think Tasteosis are the best casting duo on the planet, and I'm sure TL agrees. But that doesn't mean they should be able to avoid criticism! :D
One thing that annoys me now that I can't get out of my head because I've recognized it is the frequent use of 'definitely a possibility'. Sounds like a misnomer to me.
I'm sure we're all tired of hearing Artosis say 'ZEE-LOT' too. Has he been asked about this? Does he know the correct pronunciation or is he just trolling?
On a sidenote, I have a newfound respect for Khaldor and Wolf after being forced to listen to HD, Doa and PainUser.
My personal take on HDs and Painusers cast is that it does not compare to other casting duos such as tastosis or Bitterdam. Its hard for me to elaborate on exactly why, so maybe I shouldnt even be posting this.... one thing I can say is that your understanding of the game seems to be a little bit off. Like, a zerg player would be banking 800 of each resource when his spire is 90% complete, and you guys would say something like "boy, his macro is off". Or another time I remember a battle where HD was like "and the terran player appears to have this one in the books!" and then all his vikings would die and the collosus would just destroy the terran army. Hope this is helpful, sorry if it comes off as just me complaining
On April 10 2012 01:50 IPA wrote: I'll try to keep this constructive, despite being extremely disappointed with HD (as usual).
1. To put it mildly, HD's game-awareness is lacking. Not seeing things being built (hatches, turrets, etc), seemingly unable to put together why Nestea would be stockpiling mins and gas (hint: lair was about to pop), and just flat out missing blatantly obvious occurrences -- all of these negatively affected my IPL4 experience when he was casting. It was distracting, unprofessional and unacceptable at an event of this stature.
2. I know humor is subjective, but HD's plastic, generic jokes and delivery are unwanted and painful (for me).
3. The constant "give a cheer" is beyond exhausting. It robs the crowd of any natural momentum and forces an awkward and forced expression of excitement. Let the crowd cheer on their on. Seriously. I promise. They will not disappoint.
4. To be frank, HD was simply shown up by everyone else at the event. I'm not even the biggest fan of PainUser or CatsPajamas but they were leagues better than HD, and Apollo is so far ahead of them all in terms of analysis, flow, and coherence that he should instantly be given a raise. When you're the worst caster, by far, at a prestigious event, you need to begin working harder.
That being said, I loved the event and enjoyed the games very much. I genuinely hope IPL will take action to either create a do-or-die incentive for HD's job at the next event, or hire a superior caster.
Cheers.
This is a very good post and I believe it sums up a lot of the criticisms that others are not expressing effectively.
Also the posts about name-dropping brood war. Don't do that.
especially since 95% of the time a caster is yelling, they are just yelling what is on screen. I can infact see what is on the screen, i dont need it said to me, let alone yelled at me.
I'd also like it if casters could provide some level of insight into the game, so that a person such as myself who hasn't played in a year can keep up to date with recent metagame trends merely by watching the game.
I'd also like lan, see if the casters can fix that up for us.
these criticisms dont apply specifically to hd and painuser, but casters as a whole, i just had this reply typed up for a thread that got closed and figured id put it somewhere
It may have been a bit harder to hear in the atmosphere of a barcraft but overall I really liked the commentary and thought there was improvement from before. HD and Painuser did a fine job, the only thing that I think could be useful is doing more research on players and their particular styles / builds beforehand to give better insight during the game, but overall it was great!
I felt that the the biggest issue that HD and Painuser have when they cast together is that they over complicate things and that they should try to settle into a more normal casting dynamic. Let Painuser do the analysis and let HD do the colour. HD shouldn't try to add analysis as it tends to throw both of you off and lead to a few awkward pauses where neither of you knew who was going to talk next and on other times HD followed on from a point Painuser had made by saying the exact same thing and that again led to the awkward moments.
In short Keep things simple and you will grow as a duo, then you can start to add in a bit more veriaty but you have to nail the basics first and at the moment I feel you aren't doing that.
Oh and when your not in game talk to the camera and not to each other.
On April 10 2012 02:31 schiznak wrote: id like it if casters would stop yelling at me.
especially since 95% of the time a caster is yelling, they are just yelling what is on screen. I can infact see what is on the screen, i dont need it said to me, let alone yelled at me.
I'd also like it if casters could provide some level of insight into the game, so that a person such as myself who hasn't played in a year can keep up to date with recent metagame trends merely by watching the game.
I'd also like lan, see if the casters can fix that up for us.
these criticisms dont apply specifically to hd and painuser, but casters as a whole, i just had this reply typed up for a thread that got closed and figured id put it somewhere
The first 2 points are ok. Then "I WOULD LIKE CASTERS TO GIVE ME LAN" ROFL?????? What are you on about mate?
And to HD. Smile, relax - SLAP whoever forced you to eek a cheer from the crowd every few seconds - and take the criticism to heart - be more map aware, and spend some time watching/playing the game man! :D
Remember, you don't have HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Youtube Subs for nothing!
On April 10 2012 01:50 IPA wrote: I'll try to keep this constructive, despite being extremely disappointed with HD (as usual).
1. To put it mildly, HD's game-awareness is lacking. Not seeing things being built (hatches, turrets, etc), seemingly unable to put together why Nestea would be stockpiling mins and gas (hint: lair was about to pop), and just flat out missing blatantly obvious occurrences -- all of these negatively affected my IPL4 experience when he was casting. It was distracting, unprofessional and unacceptable at an event of this stature.
2. I know humor is subjective, but HD's plastic, generic jokes and delivery are unwanted and painful (for me).
3. The constant "give a cheer" is beyond exhausting. It robs the crowd of any natural momentum and forces an awkward and forced expression of excitement. Let the crowd cheer on their on. Seriously. I promise. They will not disappoint.
4. To be frank, HD was simply shown up by everyone else at the event. I'm not even the biggest fan of PainUser or CatsPajamas but they were leagues better than HD, and Apollo is so far ahead of them all in terms of analysis, flow, and coherence that he should instantly be given a raise. When you're the worst caster, by far, at a prestigious event, you need to begin working harder.
That being said, I loved the event and enjoyed the games very much. I genuinely hope IPL will take action to either create a do-or-die incentive for HD's job at the next event, or hire a superior caster.
Cheers.
This is a very good post and I believe it sums up a lot of the criticisms that others are not expressing effectively.
Also the posts about name-dropping brood war. Don't do that.
No it's terrible. The only point that is solid criticism is the first point, which I would explain as the misinformation he said at times. Everything else is just nitpicky garbage that every caster does and this guy just wants to hate. If HD reads this, PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS PERSON'S ADVICE.
I think HD needs to focus on becoming a co-caster as he's used to his YT casts and you can tell he tries to carry both the job of an analytical and play-by-play caster. He also needs to stay moreso focused on the match, at times as he will go offtopic during the heat of a battle. He should only be telling stories/making jokes/etc. when there is downtime during a match (basically the beginning).
On April 10 2012 01:50 IPA wrote: 1. To put it mildly, HD's game-awareness is lacking. Not seeing things being built (hatches, turrets, etc), seemingly unable to put together why Nestea would be stockpiling mins and gas (hint: lair was about to pop), and just flat out missing blatantly obvious occurrences -- all of these negatively affected my IPL4 experience when he was casting. It was distracting, unprofessional and unacceptable at an event of this stature.
2. I know humor is subjective, but HD's plastic, generic jokes and delivery are unwanted and painful (for me).
3. The constant "give a cheer" is beyond exhausting. It robs the crowd of any natural momentum and forces an awkward and forced expression of excitement. Let the crowd cheer on their on. Seriously. I promise. They will not disappoint.
4. To be frank, HD was simply shown up by everyone else at the event. I'm not even the biggest fan of PainUser or CatsPajamas but they were leagues better than HD, and Apollo is so far ahead of them all in terms of analysis, flow, and coherence that he should instantly be given a raise. When you're the worst caster, by far, at a prestigious event, you need to begin working harder.
That being said, I loved the event and enjoyed the games very much. I genuinely hope IPL will take action to either create a do-or-die incentive for HD's job at the next event, or hire a superior caster.
My thoughts/feelings couldn't possibly be more accurately put than this, on all points. Spot. On.
On October 11 2011 20:16 Kuni wrote: Probably repeating what most of the people in this thread said. Painuser is perfectly fine. You on the other hand suffer from the same problem Husky suffered in the past, but he got over it and improved a lot, really. So it would not hurt to focus on improving your game knowledge and awareness of the things going on while casting. Maybe also work on some jokes and there have been a lot of situations, where the what we saw in the games were different from what you told us.
I'm sure you can do it, just like husky, who is not that bad anymore.
Husky's improvement is a great thing to look for.
Don't take the negative feedback too hard. I was agreeably surprised by your casting duo with painuser. I think it was much better than during the qualifiers so you need to keep working on some stuff.
My two cents :
- Be careful when you give an opinion on who's ahead/behind in a game. Sometimes you focused to much on few specific aspects and missed the more general trend of the game. In one of the early ZvP, when the zerg loses units to a FE stargate but is ahead in bases/workers/supply after the harassment/push, he is NOT behind. Sometimes Painuser would correct you but other times you both go head first into thinking that one player is way ahead and confirm each other's intuition and keep repeating wrong stuff. Try and keep a clear mind and don't let your counterpart influence your though too much. You need to help each other instead of pushing into the wrong direction with a nowball effect. I think the criticism you've had on the game knowlegde is due to rushing to conclusion ("A is definitely ahead... 2min later B is miles ahead...1min later A crushes B in a convincing fashion !!")
- Obsing was really bad at times. I know it can be really difficult to cast and obs at the same time. Try and see if it is possible to get a dedicated obs like in GSL. It was better at the end but some of the obsing made me sick with unstable screen, units fighting on the edge, following moving units by screen scrolling. You also missed many drops and even big engagements at times...
- Sometimes I felt awkward when you shared your own game experience as a zerg player ("when I get two raxed...blahblahblah). I don't mind it when the caster is competitive (ie painuser) but I think you lack legitimacy to include yourself, as you are comparing yourself (mid-masters ?) to players who are in a whole different league
.
That was my feedback six months ago
Unfortunately, I felt like your duo with painuner was even worse than before, and I muted/moved to korean stream for the first time for an sc2 broadcast. Being shouted retarded nonsense at 5 am does that to you.
As many people say, please improve your player/pro scene/metagame knowledge. It's your darn job. Be an expert at least in your ability to present players, teams, playstyle and reputation if you can't analyse the game.
Again please stick to play by play, your repeated wrong calls are detrimential to PU who sounds like an unbearable know-it-all corecting you all the time with secret voice.
On April 10 2012 01:50 IPA wrote: I'll try to keep this constructive, despite being extremely disappointed with HD (as usual).
1. To put it mildly, HD's game-awareness is lacking. Not seeing things being built (hatches, turrets, etc), seemingly unable to put together why Nestea would be stockpiling mins and gas (hint: lair was about to pop), and just flat out missing blatantly obvious occurrences -- all of these negatively affected my IPL4 experience when he was casting. It was distracting, unprofessional and unacceptable at an event of this stature.
2. I know humor is subjective, but HD's plastic, generic jokes and delivery are unwanted and painful (for me).
3. The constant "give a cheer" is beyond exhausting. It robs the crowd of any natural momentum and forces an awkward and forced expression of excitement. Let the crowd cheer on their on. Seriously. I promise. They will not disappoint.
4. To be frank, HD was simply shown up by everyone else at the event. I'm not even the biggest fan of PainUser or CatsPajamas but they were leagues better than HD, and Apollo is so far ahead of them all in terms of analysis, flow, and coherence that he should instantly be given a raise. When you're the worst caster, by far, at a prestigious event, you need to begin working harder.
That being said, I loved the event and enjoyed the games very much. I genuinely hope IPL will take action to either create a do-or-die incentive for HD's job at the next event, or hire a superior caster.
Cheers.
This is a very good post and I believe it sums up a lot of the criticisms that others are not expressing effectively.
Also the posts about name-dropping brood war. Don't do that.
No it's terrible. The only point that is solid criticism is the first point, which I would explain as the misinformation he said at times. Everything else is just nitpicky garbage that every caster does and this guy just wants to hate. If HD reads this, PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS PERSON'S ADVICE.
I think HD needs to focus on becoming a co-caster as he's used to his YT casts and you can tell he tries to carry both the job of an analytical and play-by-play caster. He also needs to stay moreso focused on the match, at times as he will go offtopic during the heat of a battle. He should only be telling stories/making jokes/etc. when there is downtime during a match (basically the beginning).
My post is criticism of HD's casting. This is a thread, created by the casters themselves, asking for criticism. What is "nitpicky garbage" to you is something awful for myself and many other posters in this thread. It's comical for you to advise HD to avoid my post when he created it for that very purpose.
Also, I am not alone in my feelings -- read the last ten pages my friend. Take a deep breath: people have different opinions than you, and it's ok. Cheers.
On April 10 2012 01:50 IPA wrote: I'll try to keep this constructive, despite being extremely disappointed with HD (as usual).
1. To put it mildly, HD's game-awareness is lacking. Not seeing things being built (hatches, turrets, etc), seemingly unable to put together why Nestea would be stockpiling mins and gas (hint: lair was about to pop), and just flat out missing blatantly obvious occurrences -- all of these negatively affected my IPL4 experience when he was casting. It was distracting, unprofessional and unacceptable at an event of this stature.
2. I know humor is subjective, but HD's plastic, generic jokes and delivery are unwanted and painful (for me).
3. The constant "give a cheer" is beyond exhausting. It robs the crowd of any natural momentum and forces an awkward and forced expression of excitement. Let the crowd cheer on their on. Seriously. I promise. They will not disappoint.
4. To be frank, HD was simply shown up by everyone else at the event. I'm not even the biggest fan of PainUser or CatsPajamas but they were leagues better than HD, and Apollo is so far ahead of them all in terms of analysis, flow, and coherence that he should instantly be given a raise. When you're the worst caster, by far, at a prestigious event, you need to begin working harder.
That being said, I loved the event and enjoyed the games very much. I genuinely hope IPL will take action to either create a do-or-die incentive for HD's job at the next event, or hire a superior caster.
Cheers.
This is a very good post and I believe it sums up a lot of the criticisms that others are not expressing effectively.
Also the posts about name-dropping brood war. Don't do that.
No it's terrible. The only point that is solid criticism is the first point, which I would explain as the misinformation he said at times. Everything else is just nitpicky garbage that every caster does and this guy just wants to hate. If HD reads this, PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS PERSON'S ADVICE.
I think HD needs to focus on becoming a co-caster as he's used to his YT casts and you can tell he tries to carry both the job of an analytical and play-by-play caster. He also needs to stay moreso focused on the match, at times as he will go offtopic during the heat of a battle. He should only be telling stories/making jokes/etc. when there is downtime during a match (basically the beginning).
My post is criticism of HD's casting. This is a thread, created by the casters themselves, asking for criticism. What is "nitpicky garbage" to you is something awful for myself and many other posters in this thread. It's comical for you to advise HD to avoid my post when he created it for that very purpose.
Also, I am not alone in my feelings -- read the last ten pages my friend. Take a deep breath: people have different opinions than you, and it's ok. Cheers.
woah buddy i thinkyou should reread your post. I don't think you made more than one point. All the rest is subjective. That is NOT good criticism. Take a back seat brah
Your post is basically herp derp PAINFUL derp herp AWFUL blah blah WORST...
The point of criticism is not to be a total asshole. It is to critique. Not say HOW bad a person is but HOW they can improve.
On April 10 2012 01:50 IPA wrote: I'll try to keep this constructive, despite being extremely disappointed with HD (as usual).
1. To put it mildly, HD's game-awareness is lacking. Not seeing things being built (hatches, turrets, etc), seemingly unable to put together why Nestea would be stockpiling mins and gas (hint: lair was about to pop), and just flat out missing blatantly obvious occurrences -- all of these negatively affected my IPL4 experience when he was casting. It was distracting, unprofessional and unacceptable at an event of this stature.
2. I know humor is subjective, but HD's plastic, generic jokes and delivery are unwanted and painful (for me).
3. The constant "give a cheer" is beyond exhausting. It robs the crowd of any natural momentum and forces an awkward and forced expression of excitement. Let the crowd cheer on their on. Seriously. I promise. They will not disappoint.
4. To be frank, HD was simply shown up by everyone else at the event. I'm not even the biggest fan of PainUser or CatsPajamas but they were leagues better than HD, and Apollo is so far ahead of them all in terms of analysis, flow, and coherence that he should instantly be given a raise. When you're the worst caster, by far, at a prestigious event, you need to begin working harder.
That being said, I loved the event and enjoyed the games very much. I genuinely hope IPL will take action to either create a do-or-die incentive for HD's job at the next event, or hire a superior caster.
Cheers.
This is a very good post and I believe it sums up a lot of the criticisms that others are not expressing effectively.
Also the posts about name-dropping brood war. Don't do that.
No it's terrible. The only point that is solid criticism is the first point, which I would explain as the misinformation he said at times. Everything else is just nitpicky garbage that every caster does and this guy just wants to hate. If HD reads this, PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS PERSON'S ADVICE.
I think HD needs to focus on becoming a co-caster as he's used to his YT casts and you can tell he tries to carry both the job of an analytical and play-by-play caster. He also needs to stay moreso focused on the match, at times as he will go offtopic during the heat of a battle. He should only be telling stories/making jokes/etc. when there is downtime during a match (basically the beginning).
My post is criticism of HD's casting. This is a thread, created by the casters themselves, asking for criticism. What is "nitpicky garbage" to you is something awful for myself and many other posters in this thread. It's comical for you to advise HD to avoid my post when he created it for that very purpose.
Also, I am not alone in my feelings -- read the last ten pages my friend. Take a deep breath: people have different opinions than you, and it's ok. Cheers.
woah buddy i thinkyou should reread your post. I don't think you made more than one point. All the rest is subjective. That is NOT good criticism. Take a back seat brah
Your post is basically herp derp PAINFUL derp herp AWFUL blah blah WORST...
The point of criticism is not to be a total asshole. It is to critique. Not say HOW bad a person is but HOW they can improve.
"I don't know if theres an obs on the map or not! He needs one! Oh! he does have one!"
Then silence hits for about 5 seconds and Painuser says
"there is NOT an observer on the field, nor is there a facility".
P.s. painuser, yes there was, and when you keep over correcting people, you better make sure you're correct everysingle damn time. They had the unit tab open, and there was most definitely an obs on the field, and you were saying there WASN'T (making HD look stupid and wrong) as the unit overlay was OPEN.
On April 10 2012 01:50 IPA wrote: I'll try to keep this constructive, despite being extremely disappointed with HD (as usual).
1. To put it mildly, HD's game-awareness is lacking. Not seeing things being built (hatches, turrets, etc), seemingly unable to put together why Nestea would be stockpiling mins and gas (hint: lair was about to pop), and just flat out missing blatantly obvious occurrences -- all of these negatively affected my IPL4 experience when he was casting. It was distracting, unprofessional and unacceptable at an event of this stature.
2. I know humor is subjective, but HD's plastic, generic jokes and delivery are unwanted and painful (for me).
3. The constant "give a cheer" is beyond exhausting. It robs the crowd of any natural momentum and forces an awkward and forced expression of excitement. Let the crowd cheer on their on. Seriously. I promise. They will not disappoint.
4. To be frank, HD was simply shown up by everyone else at the event. I'm not even the biggest fan of PainUser or CatsPajamas but they were leagues better than HD, and Apollo is so far ahead of them all in terms of analysis, flow, and coherence that he should instantly be given a raise. When you're the worst caster, by far, at a prestigious event, you need to begin working harder.
That being said, I loved the event and enjoyed the games very much. I genuinely hope IPL will take action to either create a do-or-die incentive for HD's job at the next event, or hire a superior caster.
Cheers.
This is a very good post and I believe it sums up a lot of the criticisms that others are not expressing effectively.
Also the posts about name-dropping brood war. Don't do that.
No it's terrible. The only point that is solid criticism is the first point, which I would explain as the misinformation he said at times. Everything else is just nitpicky garbage that every caster does and this guy just wants to hate. If HD reads this, PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS PERSON'S ADVICE.
I think HD needs to focus on becoming a co-caster as he's used to his YT casts and you can tell he tries to carry both the job of an analytical and play-by-play caster. He also needs to stay moreso focused on the match, at times as he will go offtopic during the heat of a battle. He should only be telling stories/making jokes/etc. when there is downtime during a match (basically the beginning).
My post is criticism of HD's casting. This is a thread, created by the casters themselves, asking for criticism. What is "nitpicky garbage" to you is something awful for myself and many other posters in this thread. It's comical for you to advise HD to avoid my post when he created it for that very purpose.
Also, I am not alone in my feelings -- read the last ten pages my friend. Take a deep breath: people have different opinions than you, and it's ok. Cheers.
woah buddy i thinkyou should reread your post. I don't think you made more than one point. All the rest is subjective. That is NOT good criticism. Take a back seat brah
Your post is basically herp derp PAINFUL derp herp AWFUL blah blah WORST...
The point of criticism is not to be a total asshole. It is to critique. Not say HOW bad a person is but HOW they can improve.
All criticism is subjective. Several people have agreed with my post so let's just say you and I have a difference of opinion. You seem to be a fan of HD's though, so maybe his criticism thread isn't the one you should be in.
I feel like the hive-mind has warped everyone's opinions on HD/PainUser as casters. They are my second favorite to listen to next to Tasteless/Artosis.
HD/PU if you are reading this as I'm sure you are, remember this is the vocal minority speaking. I love your casts and I'm sure most people do, so don't take unwarranted criticism too hard.
On April 10 2012 01:50 IPA wrote: I'll try to keep this constructive, despite being extremely disappointed with HD (as usual).
1. To put it mildly, HD's game-awareness is lacking. Not seeing things being built (hatches, turrets, etc), seemingly unable to put together why Nestea would be stockpiling mins and gas (hint: lair was about to pop), and just flat out missing blatantly obvious occurrences -- all of these negatively affected my IPL4 experience when he was casting. It was distracting, unprofessional and unacceptable at an event of this stature.
2. I know humor is subjective, but HD's plastic, generic jokes and delivery are unwanted and painful (for me).
3. The constant "give a cheer" is beyond exhausting. It robs the crowd of any natural momentum and forces an awkward and forced expression of excitement. Let the crowd cheer on their on. Seriously. I promise. They will not disappoint.
4. To be frank, HD was simply shown up by everyone else at the event. I'm not even the biggest fan of PainUser or CatsPajamas but they were leagues better than HD, and Apollo is so far ahead of them all in terms of analysis, flow, and coherence that he should instantly be given a raise. When you're the worst caster, by far, at a prestigious event, you need to begin working harder.
That being said, I loved the event and enjoyed the games very much. I genuinely hope IPL will take action to either create a do-or-die incentive for HD's job at the next event, or hire a superior caster.
Cheers.
This is a very good post and I believe it sums up a lot of the criticisms that others are not expressing effectively.
Also the posts about name-dropping brood war. Don't do that.
No it's terrible. The only point that is solid criticism is the first point, which I would explain as the misinformation he said at times. Everything else is just nitpicky garbage that every caster does and this guy just wants to hate. If HD reads this, PLEASE DON'T TAKE THIS PERSON'S ADVICE.
I think HD needs to focus on becoming a co-caster as he's used to his YT casts and you can tell he tries to carry both the job of an analytical and play-by-play caster. He also needs to stay moreso focused on the match, at times as he will go offtopic during the heat of a battle. He should only be telling stories/making jokes/etc. when there is downtime during a match (basically the beginning).
My post is criticism of HD's casting. This is a thread, created by the casters themselves, asking for criticism. What is "nitpicky garbage" to you is something awful for myself and many other posters in this thread. It's comical for you to advise HD to avoid my post when he created it for that very purpose.
Also, I am not alone in my feelings -- read the last ten pages my friend. Take a deep breath: people have different opinions than you, and it's ok. Cheers.
woah buddy i thinkyou should reread your post. I don't think you made more than one point. All the rest is subjective. That is NOT good criticism. Take a back seat brah
Your post is basically herp derp PAINFUL derp herp AWFUL blah blah WORST...
The point of criticism is not to be a total asshole. It is to critique. Not say HOW bad a person is but HOW they can improve.
All criticism is subjective. Several people have agreed with my post so let's just say you and I have a difference of opinion. You seem to be a fan of HD's though, so maybe his criticism thread isn't the one you should be in.
Yeah man, I shouldn't critique that is why I'm listing some solutions to the problem :D I love this.
Here's my take: The casters need to figure out what role they're playing in the casting team. By the way, there are two:
Analyst: (Examples: Artosis, Rotterdam, Day9, Apollo) (How to tell who is a analyst: Someone you'd like to teach you sc2) The analyst should be doing the deep... analysis of the game. Trying to get into the head of the player, talking about why decisions are being made. Talk about what sort of follow ups would be good here, or what is currently popular in the meta. Talk about why a decision to let cloaked banshees pick off combat shield marines (instead of the nearby SCVs) for free is actually a good idea and not mis-management of units. This guy should have (and usually does) his own screen where he can switch through unit tabs, check on player views, etc.
Commentator: (Examples: Tasteless, MrBitter, djWHEAT, TotalBiscut) (How to tell who is a commentator: Someone you'd like to get drunk with*) The commentator should be doing shallow play-by-play. This sounds like a terrible job but its not, its just as important. This person is tasked with keeping the attention of the entire crowd, from baddie bronze to GM. Tasteless is amazing at this. He'll often take something that Artosis said and break it down with something like "For those of you who are new to the game...". This is incredibly helpful for new people and helps grow the scene.
---
Anyway, you need to have one of each, and they need to know what role they're playing on the team. In some cases, it didn't seem like the HD/PainUser team had this sorted -- had they, the casting might have "made more sense". Also, unreasonably getting hype gets a little annoying. If momentarily took my eyes off, I want to be drawn back to the cast when something is going on, but only when something is going on. Not when something very silly happens.
On October 11 2011 15:09 0neder wrote: I'd like to give you some feedback you probably weren't expecting. I hope you guys, IPL, and your competitors take it to heart. I know I will give definite preference to whoever does.
1. TURN OFF PROGRESS STATS BARS. Existing stuff is fine, income is fine, just don't tell me what's going to happen in the future. It completely kills the excitement by about 300%. Don't tell me how behind someone is either. That kills the game instantly. Don't show the worker/unit tab.
2. To be honest, I don't expect amazing game knowledge, and I don't even really want it. Don't try to predict what will happen, just hype up what IS happening. Don't show skepticism of a strategy, give a player the benefit of the doubt and hype up his guts to give each variable more importance by cheesing.
I enjoy your casting in terms of delivery and excitement. Sometimes it feels a little fake, but overall you guys are good. Just give me uncertainty and excitement over omniscience and declarations that a game's over so I might as well stop watching.
Wow, this is just about the worst feedback ever. So you basically want games casted at the level Husky was at the beginning of SC2, where all he did was hype what was happening only at what he was looking at and added 0 valuable analysis whatsoever. That is terrible for people watching and makes casts very stale and "fake." That's why casting pairs need a "hype-machine" and one "high-analysis guy," and both must have a top-level understanding of the game. Painuser is fine, and as HD mentioned, his game knowledge needs work.
HD: I can see that you are trying to add enthusiasm to your casting, however, it seems forced and unnatural. To give some contrast, Doa's casting seems genuine, but he's so incredibly dorky thinks that everyone gets his jokes that his casts become so awkward and just bad for the public to watch (sorry for the slant), but it comes out natural for him because that's who he is. I'm unsure what kind of caster you're going for HD, I just don't see you being able to analyze at the level of an Artosis/Day9, but you seem to want to be a Tasteless type caster. I think the direction you should head is mastering projection of your tone/voice and increase your game knowledge, but not so that you can become an Artosis type analyzer, but just so you can be a sidekick Tasteless type caster to hype. You're heading in this direction even though I think you're trying to be an analyzer, but you need that game knowledge there even though you're not gonna be doin the indepth stuff.
How anyone can say people like DOA and CatsPyjamas are better than Painuser i will never ever know. Painuser has everything a caster needs. Keep it up.
Painuser was very insightful, especially when commenting on Terran players. HD became less annoying by the end of the event, but he still needs to talk less imo. He tried to predict what was going to happen and many times he was completely wrong
"I think he's gonna make banshees with cloak" when there is no tech lab on the starport (or even near it) and a medivac is being made. But just looking at the game for 2 seconds he could have said something much smarter, or nothing at all.
The observer, Legend, told me more about the game and what was going on at points than the casters. IMO, Legend stole the show with his gosu observing. You're not going to be able to cram everything that's going on in a cast, but the blatantly obvious example was Legend clicking on the Nestea spire about 40 times to alert you guys and you never once mentioned it until 5 minutes into the technical difficulties break.
HD's voice is really good and soothing for casting so no complaints there. PainUser does this odd "whisper" voice that I'm ambivalent towards (maybe others have feedback).
Otherwise, it was solid - nothing too awful, nothing ground breaking either. Good work, best of luck.
Think they did good. If baseline is make a non pro player understand the flow of the game and whats happening i think great. Sure there was some faulty stuff and brainfreezes but who doesnt have them. i really enjoy tastosis even tho tasteless is the king of saying wrong stuff and beeing inaccurate sometimes but overall excellent.
On April 10 2012 03:16 tbrown47 wrote: I feel like the hive-mind has warped everyone's opinions on HD/PainUser as casters. They are my second favorite to listen to next to Tasteless/Artosis.
HD/PU if you are reading this as I'm sure you are, remember this is the vocal minority speaking. I love your casts and I'm sure most people do, so don't take unwarranted criticism too hard.
That's stupid. The point of this thread is for criticism. The last thing we need is blind casters who refuse to improve based on criticism.
This event just reinforced my opinion about HD. And EVEN WORSE, he kept saying "Player A should be doing this!!! Really!! I swear it's true!!! He should do this and that and this. Why is he not doing it I don't know"
Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Oh yeah, Legend's observing was absolutely great. He kept checking out upgrades, buildings, unit health, engagements, drops, production queue. His mouse circling was on the spot.
On April 10 2012 03:16 tbrown47 wrote: I feel like the hive-mind has warped everyone's opinions on HD/PainUser as casters. They are my second favorite to listen to next to Tasteless/Artosis.
HD/PU if you are reading this as I'm sure you are, remember this is the vocal minority speaking. I love your casts and I'm sure most people do, so don't take unwarranted criticism too hard.
That's stupid. The point of this thread is for criticism. The last thing we need is blind casters who refuse to improve based on criticism.
Problem is alot of it is not constructive criticism. People have their favourites, and it seems if you are not tastosis you are no one.
His casts are uninformative, he uses same words all time, and once u realize he uses them u get annoyed, example is him yelling "Oh MY GODNESS" all time, seriously, in each IPL cast durning every game i hear it....He does a lot of theory crafting that make no sense, honestly i hope HD gets removed from casting job, this has been going on for more than a year, look how many other talented casters could take his place and fix ipl casting!
I feel like every time HD says something, Painuser has to take the time to correct it and show how it is wrong. Painuser is a great caster and had he been paired with someone else I think it would have been much better.
I've benen following your YouTube casts for a long time, though I didn't get the chance to watch much IPL. I think your best quality is that you have a very smooth and clean voice that is easy to listen to. You could probably improve on some areas, but don't be too hard on yourself
Painuser's insight is very good and he is doing a great job at describing the game, but unfortunately I can't stand HD. His humor feels very stale, and he is hyping the things he shouldn't be hyping. On top of that, he seems to have almost no idea about factors like race specific macro, positioning, map control etc.
On April 10 2012 03:16 tbrown47 wrote: I feel like the hive-mind has warped everyone's opinions on HD/PainUser as casters. They are my second favorite to listen to next to Tasteless/Artosis.
HD/PU if you are reading this as I'm sure you are, remember this is the vocal minority speaking. I love your casts and I'm sure most people do, so don't take unwarranted criticism too hard.
That's stupid. The point of this thread is for criticism. The last thing we need is blind casters who refuse to improve based on criticism.
Problem is alot of it is not constructive criticism. People have their favourites, and it seems if you are not tastosis you are no one.
That doesn't justify the decision to ignore criticism altogether as you are implying. Take criticism as it is given, ignore the ones that are just hateful and without substance and focus on the ones that seem genuine.
Your second statement is a massive exaggeration. People like tastosis because they are good casters and have set the bar for other casters in people's eyes. Viewers appreciate good analysis as well as insight on strategy. It's not just about hyping the game any more like HD and Husky did back in the beta because no body knew how to play the game back then. Yes, we do expect casters to change their styles to appeal to their viewership and it's clear what type of casting the community is after. Tastosis definitely did not over do it, imo Day9 and Apollo are right up there with them. Bitterdam also have their place in the casting community and even Husky and djWheat may not have the best analysis, but it is very clear they've improved over time and put in a lot of effort into the community. They don't just yell a ton of bullshit when they have no idea what's going on in a game.
On April 10 2012 03:16 tbrown47 wrote: I feel like the hive-mind has warped everyone's opinions on HD/PainUser as casters. They are my second favorite to listen to next to Tasteless/Artosis.
HD/PU if you are reading this as I'm sure you are, remember this is the vocal minority speaking. I love your casts and I'm sure most people do, so don't take unwarranted criticism too hard.
That's stupid. The point of this thread is for criticism. The last thing we need is blind casters who refuse to improve based on criticism.
Problem is alot of it is not constructive criticism. People have their favourites, and it seems if you are not tastosis you are no one.
That doesn't justify the decision to ignore criticism altogether as you are implying. Take criticism as it is given, ignore the ones that are just hateful and without substance and focus on the ones that seem genuine.
Your second statement is a massive exaggeration. People like tastosis because they are good casters and have set the bar for other casters in people's eyes. Viewers appreciate good analysis as well as insight on strategy. It's not just about hyping the game any more like HD and Husky did back in the beta because no body knew how to play the game back then. Yes, we do expect casters to change their styles to appeal to their viewership and it's clear what type of casting the community is after. Tastosis definitely did not over do it, imo Day9 and Apollo are right up there with them. Bitterdam also have their place in the casting community and even Husky and djWheat may not have the best analysis, but it is very clear they've improved over time and put in a lot of effort into the community. They don't just yell a ton of bullshit when they have no idea what's going on in a game.
I didn't mean to say ignore criticism if that is the way it came off... But some people are just plain hating on HD/PU and that shit needs to stop.
I really feel that HD needs to become a top player if he wants to tell the audience that the players are doing things wrong. Instead of ignorantly saying how sub par a player is playing or trying to predict a build when its obvious that you don't play starcraft that much, just stick with play by play and pumping the crowd up. there were numerous times where painuser knew that you were wrong but he didn't say anything because he didn't want to look like a douche by correcting you all the time.
On April 10 2012 04:15 Sspinner wrote: I feel like every time HD says something, Painuser has to take the time to correct it and show how it is wrong. Painuser is a great caster and had he been paired with someone else I think it would have been much better.
indeed, it showed. at times it even seemed to me like PainUser was irritated at having HD saying so many wrong things. he even seemed to be taking slight jabs at him in the end.
The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE. Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
People saying a caster predicted something but was wrong.. I dont think you know what you are talking about. Casters mostly phrase it like "we could/might see", "wer most likely gonna see", etc. And that is just fine, and if it doesnt develop like so then there is no harm in that. "X will open like this and this will happen", no, no caster does that.
Making little sense or being wrong in analysis is something that occurs though, surely every caster has had his bad moments in this regard. Please state some specific examples when you complain on a certain caster in this regard, otherwise how cant we know you arent the one who got it wrong? I can imagine most people watching the casting belong beneath NA GM or EU high masters and thus arent qualified to be given the benefit of the doubt, so state specific examples or im just gonna think you are some gold level player looking to rag on the caster (HD) many people once decided to be somewhat "lame" compared to their already established casting favourites.
Personally i mostly have a sc2 stream on while doing other things so i cant say that ive payed too much attention to any specific caster, when i did though i found HD/Painuser to be absolutely fine. This casting fixation will hopefully become less of an issue if and when the game gets better. (When i see an intense BW match im excited by the game itself and im having a great time even though the commentators speak korean which i dont understand).
On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote: The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE. Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe?
That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote.
If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If the zerg canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a very questionable move. And even if canseling a first hatch for some reason would have been necessary; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy that casters by all rights should rag on.
On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote: The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE. Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe?
That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote.
If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case.
audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know.
also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo.
On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote: The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE. Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe?
That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote.
If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case.
audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know.
also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo.
You most most certainly can defend your gold in that scenario. "The toss opens gateways without expanding". So are your refering to a exe fake 1 base all in attack? or what are you refering to? Even if the case is a 2 gate zealot opening the zerg will defend it, he sees whats up and hes making nothing but lings from 2 hatch 1 queen and 7 of his drones working gold minerals. He will even get money to throw down that early spine while making every larva into a zergling.
If you are refering to a fake exe 1 base "all in" then the gold has already by far played out its advantage already. Nestea either has to have this in mind since he knows in an advantagous eco position and can play with some margin, and once he actually sees it comming he will obv make nothing but units/spines. He will always have better production capabilities then the toss aswell as better income in any of these situations. This is a major reason why gold bases are getting removed from maps. Zerg taking a fast gold ZvP is basically always advantagous.
On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote: The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE. Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe?
That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote.
If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). Doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case.
The first guy actually makes sense while you do not. If you see FFE from Toss, Protoss cant actually attack you for a long time since he cant make attacking units so you can actually safely mining from the gold and take profit from it (This is same reason as Zerg can make 3rd expo when seeing toss FFE). However, Nestea saw that Squirtle built gate/cyber first, giving the fact that the gold on that map is really open and hard to hold (toss can just put stalkers on the high ground and u basically can't mine from it), he canceled it and build it at his natural which is of course much easier to hold. You say that you can make up for it if u spine up and defend yah thats true for map like crossfire because the gold can only be attacked from one side and hence zerg can spine up and defend (not all gold bases are the same). However thats not true for gold on antiga because you cant spine to defend the attack from the high ground, and they dont need to kill ur hatch, they just need to prevent you from mining and thats super easy on that gold base on antiga. I am also really sure that squirtle can 4 gates and kill nestea if he sees the gold base. If you spine up the gold he can go straight to nestea main base and vice versa. So how many spines will he need then ? at least 6-7 without even sure if he could actually mine from the gold. Now you decides if its worth it. Before throwing out that bronze,silver nonsense, take time and think. At pro level every map is different, it works on crossfire doesnt mean it works on antiga. Saying Nestea does a silver level move without even reasoning it through is kinda ridiculous and idiotic of you.
On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote: The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE. Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe?
That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote.
If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case.
audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know.
also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo.
agreed with both of you on this game... it was simply a reaction to what squirtle was doing but PU/HD completely missed it and sort of when on too long even after the game was over about nestea's "indecisiveness." in regards to the overall cast by the duo, they seemed to always cut each other off, especially PU. It didn't seem like the chemistry was very good from what I saw.
I like HD a lot, I've been listening to his HD channel ever since I got into SC2 really...I think he's great on his own. That being said, I found that this weekend he seemed a bit nervous. PainUser generally has good analysis, but HD seemed to be a bit on edge. Also, it's pretty annoying how every single time they would return from commercial HD would say something like "MAKE SOME NOISE IF YOU LIKE IPL". You don't need to do it everytime.
On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote: The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE. Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe?
That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote.
If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case.
audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know.
also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo.
You most most certainly can defend your gold in that scenario. "The toss opens gateways without expanding". So are your refering to a exe fake 1 base all in attack? or what are you refering to? Even if the case is a 2 gate zealot opening the zerg will defend it, he sees whats up and hes making nothing but lings from 2 hatch 1 queen and 7 of his drones working gold minerals. He will even get money to throw down that early spine while making every larva into a zergling.
If you are refering to a fake exe 1 base "all in" then the gold has already by far played out its advantage already. Nestea simply just has to see it comming and make nothing but units/spines, he will always have better production capabilities then the toss aswell as better income in any of these situations. This is a major reason why gold bases are getting removed from maps. Zerg taking a fast gold ZvP is basically always advantagous.
Again you assume toss would attack your base, no need. They just have to prevent you from mining from it. This on the other hand is extremely easy on that map. At that time, saying that he has better income is wrong because he has less drones and cant mine from gold. Also no need to fake anything in that case. Just 4 gate and go. I am really sure there is no way Zerg can make as many units as toss if he 4gates so Nestea has to spine up like crazy. If Toss sees that he can safely park on that high ground prevent zerg from mining the gold and expos himself and comes out on top.
On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote: The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE. Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe?
That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote.
If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). Doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case.
The first guy actually makes sense while you do not. If you see FFE from Toss, Protoss cant actually attack you for a long time since he cant make attacking units so you can actually safely mining from the gold and take profit from it (This is same reason as Zerg can make 3rd expo when seeing toss FFE). However, Nestea saw that Squirtle built gate/cyber first, giving the fact that the gold on that map is really open and hard to hold (toss can just put stalkers on the high ground and u basically can't mine from it), he canceled it and build it at his natural which is of course much easier to hold. You say that you can make up for it if u spine up and defend yah thats true for map like crossfire because the gold can only be attacked from one side and hence zerg can spine up and defend (not all gold bases are the same). However thats not true for gold on antiga because you cant spine to defend the attack from the high ground, and they dont need to kill ur hatch, they just need to prevent you from mining and thats super easy on that gold base on antiga. I am also really sure that squirtle can 4 gates and kill nestea if he sees the gold base. If you spine up the gold he can go straight to nestea main base and vice versa. So how many spines will he need then ? at least 6-7 without even sure if he could actually mine from the gold. Now you decides if its worth it. Before throwing out that bronze,silver nonsense, take time and think. At pro level every map is different, it works on crossfire doesnt mean it works on antiga. Saying Nestea does a silver level move without even reasoning it through is kinda ridiculous and idiotic of you.
"Toss can just put stalkers on the high ground and u bawsically cant mine from it".
Are you for real? No. Nestea will greet those stalkers with units being produced from 2 or 3 hatches depening on what timing you are refering to and since he took an early gold hes getting an insane eco lead that translates into way better production capabillities.
If its a somewhat later timing you are refering to he will for example be able to greet those stalkers with speedlings from 3 hatch 3 queen even with spines in place at the gold.
All zerg needs to do i this situation is get the timings right and that gold advantage will turn into a massive unit advantage whatever units he chooses to make.
On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote: The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE. Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe?
That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote.
If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). Doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case.
The first guy actually makes sense while you do not. If you see FFE from Toss, Protoss cant actually attack you for a long time since he cant make attacking units so you can actually safely mining from the gold and take profit from it (This is same reason as Zerg can make 3rd expo when seeing toss FFE). However, Nestea saw that Squirtle built gate/cyber first, giving the fact that the gold on that map is really open and hard to hold (toss can just put stalkers on the high ground and u basically can't mine from it), he canceled it and build it at his natural which is of course much easier to hold. You say that you can make up for it if u spine up and defend yah thats true for map like crossfire because the gold can only be attacked from one side and hence zerg can spine up and defend (not all gold bases are the same). However thats not true for gold on antiga because you cant spine to defend the attack from the high ground, and they dont need to kill ur hatch, they just need to prevent you from mining and thats super easy on that gold base on antiga. I am also really sure that squirtle can 4 gates and kill nestea if he sees the gold base. If you spine up the gold he can go straight to nestea main base and vice versa. So how many spines will he need then ? at least 6-7 without even sure if he could actually mine from the gold. Now you decides if its worth it. Before throwing out that bronze,silver nonsense, take time and think. At pro level every map is different, it works on crossfire doesnt mean it works on antiga. Saying Nestea does a silver level move without even reasoning it through is kinda ridiculous and idiotic of you.
"Toss can just put stalkers on the high ground and u bawsically cant mine from it".
Are you for real? No. Nestea will great those stalkers with units being produced from 2 or 3 hatches depening on what timing you are refering to and since he took an early gold hes getting an insane eco lead that translates into way better production capabillities.
If its a somewhat later timing you are refering to he will for example be able to great those stalkers with speedlings from 3 hatch 3 queen even with spines in place at the gold.
I never see a zerg defends a 4 gates with only lings and queen (at pro level ofc) You always have to spine up. And 4 gates hits at 6:30 mark just so you know.
On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote: The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE. Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe?
That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote.
If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case.
audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know.
also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo.
You most most certainly can defend your gold in that scenario. "The toss opens gateways without expanding". So are your refering to a exe fake 1 base all in attack? or what are you refering to? Even if the case is a 2 gate zealot opening the zerg will defend it, he sees whats up and hes making nothing but lings from 2 hatch 1 queen and 7 of his drones working gold minerals. He will even get money to throw down that early spine while making every larva into a zergling.
If you are refering to a fake exe 1 base "all in" then the gold has already by far played out its advantage already. Nestea simply just has to see it comming and make nothing but units/spines, he will always have better production capabilities then the toss aswell as better income in any of these situations. This is a major reason why gold bases are getting removed from maps. Zerg taking a fast gold ZvP is basically always advantagous.
Again you assume toss would attack your base, no need. They just have to prevent you from mining from it. This on the other hand is extremely easy on that map. At that time, saying that he has better income is wrong because he has less drones and cant mine from gold.
Zerg should have as many drones as he has been allowed to which will always be more then the toss has in this scenario. He will have better production capabilities aswell as economy in all of the timings the toss can do from 1 base vs his fast gold opening. Also, see the answer i gave above this one.
On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote: The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE. Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe?
That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote.
If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case.
audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know.
also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo.
You most most certainly can defend your gold in that scenario. "The toss opens gateways without expanding". So are your refering to a exe fake 1 base all in attack? or what are you refering to? Even if the case is a 2 gate zealot opening the zerg will defend it, he sees whats up and hes making nothing but lings from 2 hatch 1 queen and 7 of his drones working gold minerals. He will even get money to throw down that early spine while making every larva into a zergling.
If you are refering to a fake exe 1 base "all in" then the gold has already by far played out its advantage already. Nestea simply just has to see it comming and make nothing but units/spines, he will always have better production capabilities then the toss aswell as better income in any of these situations. This is a major reason why gold bases are getting removed from maps. Zerg taking a fast gold ZvP is basically always advantagous.
Again you assume toss would attack your base, no need. They just have to prevent you from mining from it. This on the other hand is extremely easy on that map. At that time, saying that he has better income is wrong because he has less drones and cant mine from gold.
Zerg should have as many drones as he has been allowed to which will always be more then the toss has in this scenario. He will have better production capabilities aswell as economy in all of the timings the toss can do from 1 base vs his fast gold opening. Also, see the answer i gave above this one.
How does he have more drones ? He opened 11 overpool to put pressure on Toss if he FFE, but the Toss gate/cyber first so he was making probes nonstop (FFE is the norm on that map). Up until building that gold base, he still had less workers. Even when that gold base finishes (1 hatch production only), he would still have less drones. Then 4 gates would come 1 min later. How would he have more drones if he has to make lings to defend and still has not mined from that base for more than 1 min. Anyway, I am done arguing about this since i have said all I need to say. if you like HD+Painuser that much then sure. But saying only lings + and queens can defend a 4 gates. And say zerg should have more drones than toss even though he opens 11 overpool and has to make lings to defend 4 gates ... Well people here would know your level. I dont have to comment on that.
I liked painuser, but not HD. I think that HD really needs to play other races than zerg beause he doesn't know much about any non-zerg match up. This is especially obvious in mirror matchups. I would recommend playing other races until at least mid masters because then you can get a decent understanding of the game so there are no mis-calls during battles and better knowledge of builds and strategies
Babru are you trolling here or just a bad? 11 Overpool into Hatch at gold on Antiga and you think Z can hold it against a 1 base aggressive Protoss who knows what the fuck he's doing? Never mind hold it, you seem to think Z should be able to crush P with this strat? Dude you have to be joking, PLEASE stop defending your position because you are embarassing yourself here.
On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote: The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE. Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe?
That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote.
If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case.
audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know.
also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo.
You most most certainly can defend your gold in that scenario. "The toss opens gateways without expanding". So are your refering to a exe fake 1 base all in attack? or what are you refering to? Even if the case is a 2 gate zealot opening the zerg will defend it, he sees whats up and hes making nothing but lings from 2 hatch 1 queen and 7 of his drones working gold minerals. He will even get money to throw down that early spine while making every larva into a zergling.
If you are refering to a fake exe 1 base "all in" then the gold has already by far played out its advantage already. Nestea simply just has to see it comming and make nothing but units/spines, he will always have better production capabilities then the toss aswell as better income in any of these situations. This is a major reason why gold bases are getting removed from maps. Zerg taking a fast gold ZvP is basically always advantagous.
Again you assume toss would attack your base, no need. They just have to prevent you from mining from it. This on the other hand is extremely easy on that map. At that time, saying that he has better income is wrong because he has less drones and cant mine from gold.
Zerg should have as many drones as he has been allowed to which will always be more then the toss has in this scenario. He will have better production capabilities aswell as economy in all of the timings the toss can do from 1 base vs his fast gold opening. Also, see the answer i gave above this one.
How does he have more drones ? He opened 11 overpool to put pressure on Toss if he FFE, but the Toss gate/cyber first so he was making probes nonstop (which is the norm on that map). Up until building that gold base, he still had less workers. Even when that gold base finishes, he would still have less drones. Then 4 gates would come 1 min later. How would he have more drones if he has to make lings to defend and still has not mined from that base for more than 1 min.
No, i did not watch the match. Thats why i asked if i had interpreted what the first guy i questioned had written correctly. Well obviously a zerg doesnt want to blindly make more than 4 lings (always make 4 lings to deny probe/pylon blocking exe that is) if he has no intel giving him reason to make more. Its from this starting point i am reasoning. But then again if a zerg has that in mind he should just aswell make a 13/14 pool and not a 10/11 pool.
Regardless, even if he made 6 lings, or even 8, i would say making a fast exe at the gold vs a non FFE is still feasible, but it definitly makes it worse compared to if he had only made 4 lings.
However, this goes back to my second point in my initial response, which is: To choose an opening which forces you to cansel your first hatch if your opponent is making a common strategy (non FFE opening) is a very questionable opening that allows for the caster to indeed ask theirselves wtf nestea is doing.
I think the two of you need to do more conversation and less description. When Tasteless and Artosis cast it is like they are hanging out watching a game with you in their living room. When I listened to the two of you it was very apparent that you were casting a match for thousands of people on a stream. It was very impersonal and the flow of the cast suffered.
On April 10 2012 14:28 Rube_Juice wrote: Babru are you trolling here or just a bad? 11 Overpool into Hatch at gold on Antiga and you think Z can hold it against a 1 base aggressive Protoss who knows what the fuck he's doing? Never mind hold it, you seem to think Z should be able to crush P with this strat? Dude you have to be joking, PLEASE stop defending your position because you are embarassing yourself here.
A Zerg taking a fast gold without having wasted a lot of larva on lings is indeed an advantagous opening vs any opening by toss and you stating otherwise is embarrassing for you to say the least (very much so If you are a toss or a zerg player). Because that is the scenario i have been arguing for.
In my initial response to the guy i questioned i asked if i had interpreted his poorly written post correctly and that explains why i argued for the scenario that i argued for (as in arguing for the gold opening vs P in general and that it in general is feasible vs whatever opening the toss does).
However, I would still say that making more than 4 initial lings vs a non FFE into planting a fast gold is still somewhat feasible, so even at that point he shouldnt necessarely choose to cansel it. You obviously dont understand the power of that perfectly timed 6-7 drone transfer to the gold into massing units (if the situation so demands it). This is a major reason as to why gold bases are getting removed, because of zergs taking them as their first exe vs p.
Holy cow there are a lot of cry babies in here. Their casting is at least masters level and they make the game entertaining. Everyone is going to make some mistakes.
I think HD works better with casters other than PainUser. Maybe it's because they are such good mates or something but PU rips on HD hard at times. If Painuser doesn't rate HD's knowledge, game sense or whatever I'd hope he's helping him out behind the scenes.
I enjoy listening to HD solo cast and he's done well with other casters. I didn't overly enjoy their IPL4 work - but then again that's casting live, like in front of actual people. Amazing how that can be a game changer for some people. Certainly seemed like HD was nervous.
HD - keep at it and the improvement will come. Painuser - I'd like to see you get a bit more positive in your banter but your knowledge and understanding is top notch.
On April 10 2012 13:19 Audemed wrote: The game on antiga with nestea vs squirtle was simply painful to listen to.
Nestea 11(10?) pools as blind "counter" to FFE. Squirtle gate expands as blind counter to 3 hatch.
Gold base was a follow up to get a huge advantage and 2base allin vs the FFE. Cancelled when he saw the gate expand. Too easy to understand the whole situation if you understand the meta. Yet, the casters went on, and on, and on about how "I can't understand what he's doing", etc etc.
If i was watching the stream, I would have muted it. Being in there, I could only hold my head in my hands.
You are going to have to be a lot more clear then that. Are you saying the casters didnt understand what the zerg was doing in a situation where the zerg placed his first hatch at the gold but cansled his hatch once he saw that the toss had opend a gate exe?
That is the only way i can interpret what you just wrote.
If that was the scenario then the casters are perfectly right to question the zerg. You always want to open up a fast exe vs toss regardless of what he does and you never cansel it (unless the toss went fast forge and has put up cannons to deny it but that is something a zerg should never let happen). Haven taken the gold first and having the toss being aggressive vs it is actually a very good scenario for zerg, that early gold makes zerg able to get out a scary amount of units or even spines with few drones (zerg transfers about 6-7 drones to the gold and then says "bring it on"). It doesnt matter that its placed where it is placed at Antiga the gold advantage still makes up for it by bar. If you are refering to a later timing by the toss then the gold will have played out its advantage already in that case aswell. If Nestea canseled his first hatch at the gold in this scenario i would say his doing a silver league level move. And even if that would have been the case; You dont open with a build where you are forced to cansel your first hatch if your opponent opens a very common strategy. That in itself is a bronze leauge level choice of strategy if that would have been the case.
audemed is right. you're wrong. you cant defend the gold if the toss opens gateways without expanding. don't talk about what you don't know.
also, audemed i DID have to mute the stream, i could not stand listening to that game anymore. the whole time they thought it was a 10 pool and it was an 11 overpool... extremely easy to see, they should pay more attention or learn more about the game imo.
You most most certainly can defend your gold in that scenario. "The toss opens gateways without expanding". So are your refering to a exe fake 1 base all in attack? or what are you refering to? Even if the case is a 2 gate zealot opening the zerg will defend it, he sees whats up and hes making nothing but lings from 2 hatch 1 queen and 7 of his drones working gold minerals. He will even get money to throw down that early spine while making every larva into a zergling.
If you are refering to a fake exe 1 base "all in" then the gold has already by far played out its advantage already. Nestea simply just has to see it comming and make nothing but units/spines, he will always have better production capabilities then the toss aswell as better income in any of these situations. This is a major reason why gold bases are getting removed from maps. Zerg taking a fast gold ZvP is basically always advantagous.
Again you assume toss would attack your base, no need. They just have to prevent you from mining from it. This on the other hand is extremely easy on that map. At that time, saying that he has better income is wrong because he has less drones and cant mine from gold.
Zerg should have as many drones as he has been allowed to which will always be more then the toss has in this scenario. He will have better production capabilities aswell as economy in all of the timings the toss can do from 1 base vs his fast gold opening. Also, see the answer i gave above this one.
How does he have more drones ? He opened 11 overpool to put pressure on Toss if he FFE, but the Toss gate/cyber first so he was making probes nonstop (which is the norm on that map). Up until building that gold base, he still had less workers. Even when that gold base finishes, he would still have less drones. Then 4 gates would come 1 min later. How would he have more drones if he has to make lings to defend and still has not mined from that base for more than 1 min.
No, i did not watch the match. Thats why i asked if i had interpreted what the first guy i questioned had written correctly. Well obviously a zerg doesnt want to blindly make more then 4 lings (always make 4 lings to deny probe/pylon blocking exe that is) if he has no intel giving him reason to make more. Its from this starting point i am reasoning. But then again if a zerg has that in mind he should just aswell make a 13/14 pool and not a 10/11 pool.
Regardless, even if he made 6 lings, or even 8, i would say making a fast exe at the gold vs a non FFE is still feasible, but it definitly makes it worse compared to if he had only made 4 lings.
However, this goes back to my second point in my initial response, which is: To choose an opening which forces you to cansel your first hatch if your opponent is making a common strategy (non FFE opening) is a very questionable opening that allows for the caster to indeed ask theirselves wtf nestea is doing.
Yes his strat was not good from the beginning but it was because of Squirtle opening (no opening is perfect, ofc it would be weak against some). However on Zerg point of view it was very reasonable on that map. You have to know that 90% of toss FFE on Antiga given the long distance rush, so thats why he overpooled (In fact most maps now are big so most Tosses FFE). Then he expanded to the gold to make up for the early pool disadvantage (ofc this is after making 6 lings to put on pressure). Up until this point, every of Nestea moves makes perfect sense. Then his 6 lings saw 1 base toss and therefore he canceled the Hatch at gold and go back to his nat which is much easier to defend 1 base aggressive toss with 3 spines. However, Nestea opening put him behind but no opening is perfect. You cant say Nestea should prepare for 1 base Toss 9early pool and also FFE opening (hatch first). Babru, if I and many people in here understand Nestea chain of thoughts, the casters should have. The fact that they keep asking and didnt understand shows their lack of game knowledge. Nothing is questionable here, people early pool to catch tosses that FFE off guard all the time, both in ladder and pro games. Your support for the caster is great and I completely understand but your statement was wrong in the first place and you keep trying to defend the casters and yourself. In this case, i am really sure if HD+painuser paid enough attention they would have realized Nestea reasons. However, this is still early in the game they just did not pay close attention; well they called the overpool wrong (they thought its 9 pool). To be frank, HDPainuser call early pool wrong all time.
On April 10 2012 14:28 Rube_Juice wrote: Babru are you trolling here or just a bad? 11 Overpool into Hatch at gold on Antiga and you think Z can hold it against a 1 base aggressive Protoss who knows what the fuck he's doing? Never mind hold it, you seem to think Z should be able to crush P with this strat? Dude you have to be joking, PLEASE stop defending your position because you are embarassing yourself here.
A Zerg taking a fast gold without having wasted a lot of larva on lings is indeed an advantagous opening vs any opening by toss and you stating otherwise is embarrassing for you to say the least (very much so If you are a toss or a zerg player). Because that is the scenario i have been arguing for.
In my initial response to the guy i questioned i asked if i had interpreted his poorly written post correctly and that explains why i argued for the scenario that i argued for (as in arguing for the gold opening vs P in general and that it in general is feasible vs whatever opening the toss does).
However, I would still say that making more then 4 initial lings vs a non FFE into planting a fast gold is still somewhat feasible, so even at that point he shouldnt necessarely choose to cansel it. You obviously dont understand the power of that perfectly timed 6-7 drone transfer to the gold into massing units (if the situation so demands it). This is a major reason as to why gold bases are getting removed, because of zergs taking them as their first exe vs p.
I don't think you're in a position to be calling anyone's post poorly written. Your own posts are borderline incomprehensible.
If you had trouble understanding him it's due to your own lack of English skill, as his post was perfectly coherent.
Protips: Expansion cannot possibly be abbreviated as "exe", the word is cancel not cansel, "i" should be capitalized, it's "more than" not "more then", and that is aside from the generally hard to parse grammar you write with.
As for the argument you are having, several people have explained very clearly why fast expanding to the gold on Antiga against a protoss who went gateway first is an atrocious idea. Their posts were well reasoned, well explained, and very convincing. Your posts have not been convincing at all. And Nestea, who is a very good Zerg, apparently agrees with the people you are arguing against.
I look forward to you winning your first major tournament since you have such a better grasp on the game than (not "then") IMNestea.
I loved IPL4 casting (mainly because kaldors voice was just... RIDICULOUS :D Guess he was sick or something) And i think painuser and hd made a good casting duo. PU ripping into HD as usual but most of the time it was because HD was looking over on another thing on a map. Dont understand why are people so mean to HD. His videos in beginings of SC2 made me jump into the game with good knowledge and reach diamond quickly (No masters/GM league at that stage)
On April 10 2012 14:28 Rube_Juice wrote: Babru are you trolling here or just a bad? 11 Overpool into Hatch at gold on Antiga and you think Z can hold it against a 1 base aggressive Protoss who knows what the fuck he's doing? Never mind hold it, you seem to think Z should be able to crush P with this strat? Dude you have to be joking, PLEASE stop defending your position because you are embarassing yourself here.
A Zerg taking a fast gold without having wasted a lot of larva on lings is indeed an advantagous opening vs any opening by toss and you stating otherwise is embarrassing for you to say the least (very much so If you are a toss or a zerg player). Because that is the scenario i have been arguing for.
In my initial response to the guy i questioned i asked if i had interpreted his poorly written post correctly and that explains why i argued for the scenario that i argued for (as in arguing for the gold opening vs P in general and that it in general is feasible vs whatever opening the toss does).
However, I would still say that making more then 4 initial lings vs a non FFE into planting a fast gold is still somewhat feasible, so even at that point he shouldnt necessarely choose to cansel it. You obviously dont understand the power of that perfectly timed 6-7 drone transfer to the gold into massing units (if the situation so demands it). This is a major reason as to why gold bases are getting removed, because of zergs taking them as their first exe vs p.
I don't think you're in a position to be calling anyone's post poorly written. Your own posts are borderline incomprehensible.
If you had trouble understanding him it's due to your own lack of English skill, as his post was perfectly coherent.
Protips: Expansion cannot possibly be abbreviated as "exe", the word is cancel not cansel, "i" should be capitalized, it's "more than" not "more then", and that is aside from the generally hard to parse grammar you write with.
As for the argument you are having, several people have explained very clearly why fast expanding to the gold on Antiga against a protoss who went gateway first is an atrocious idea. Their posts were well reasoned, well explained, and very convincing. Your posts have not been convincing at all. And Nestea, who is a very good Zerg, apparently agrees with the people you are arguing against.
I look forward to you winning your first major tournament since you have such a better grasp on the game than (not "then") IMNestea.
"As for the argument you are having, several people have explained very clearly why fast expanding to the gold on Antiga against a protoss who went gateway first is an atrocious idea".
This is just plain wrong. The only case in which it would be a less of a good idea is if you have opend up a way too early pool + investing in more lings than you should have, kind of like Nesta did (i just learned that he made 6 lings which in this case turned out to be atleast 2 unnecessary lings, not changing the scenario by too much though) but this obviously has the same affect on expanding to your natural, but since expanding to the gold is a more delicat thing one could argue that its even more important to get it just right economy wise when taking that exp. Like I have already expplained now, the scenario I have been arguing for is the standard 14 pool/14 gas 1 queen, ling speed, 4 lings into (19 or 20 supply) hatch @ gold. The fact that you are saying this wouldnt be feasible vs a gateway 1 base/gateway + exe opening is just astonishing to me.
Think about it for a second. What is the main difference between putting down your first hatch at the gold compared to at the natural? A shorter distance to the toss main aswell as that highground. The highground doesnt play a significant role at all in the early game zvp though and at a later stage the gold has already taken out its advantage. Why? Because zerg will have melee units and the spines/queens will be able to attack the highground with the 2-3 overlords providing vision (the very first 2 overlords go scouting just like they normally do, so overlord 3, 4 and 5 etc can be used for providing highground vision). So the difference is that its a shorter distance. But you must understand that the cross position antiga gold expansion distance to the protoss main is not even as short of a distance as the previously played Shatterd Temple close spawn distance just to name one scenario. Tell me, did you consider the standard 19/20 supply hatch expansion on Shatterd Temple in that position to not be feasible? Did you argue that "no, a zerg can not plant standard timing hatch exp vs protoss on Shatterd close position, thats insane"?
Shatterd Temple close position was indeed broken but not in the way that a zerg couldnt open a fast or a standard timing exp hatch, but in the way that zerg didnt have a good choice for third exp aswell as the short distance playing a part later in the game. And actually, if the zerg would get a gold natural every game at shatterd (and toss getting a non gold natural) then obviously the closeposs scneario would most definiteley be the other way around, as in a scenario favouring zerg.
Do you know anything about ZvP? Do you consider yourself a good player? Please ask any good Z or P player you come across wether the 14 pool 14 gas into 19/20 hatch at gold is a safe opening vs any common protoss opening (if the protoss would do something like proxy 2 gate "all in" then obviously the zerg would be wise enough to not plant the hatch at the gold) and you will get the same answer. And this is a major reason as for why gold bases as of today are getting rocks added to them or simply getting removed.
On April 10 2012 14:28 Rube_Juice wrote: Babru are you trolling here or just a bad? 11 Overpool into Hatch at gold on Antiga and you think Z can hold it against a 1 base aggressive Protoss who knows what the fuck he's doing? Never mind hold it, you seem to think Z should be able to crush P with this strat? Dude you have to be joking, PLEASE stop defending your position because you are embarassing yourself here.
A Zerg taking a fast gold without having wasted a lot of larva on lings is indeed an advantagous opening vs any opening by toss and you stating otherwise is embarrassing for you to say the least (very much so If you are a toss or a zerg player). Because that is the scenario i have been arguing for.
In my initial response to the guy i questioned i asked if i had interpreted his poorly written post correctly and that explains why i argued for the scenario that i argued for (as in arguing for the gold opening vs P in general and that it in general is feasible vs whatever opening the toss does).
However, I would still say that making more then 4 initial lings vs a non FFE into planting a fast gold is still somewhat feasible, so even at that point he shouldnt necessarely choose to cansel it. You obviously dont understand the power of that perfectly timed 6-7 drone transfer to the gold into massing units (if the situation so demands it). This is a major reason as to why gold bases are getting removed, because of zergs taking them as their first exe vs p.
I don't think you're in a position to be calling anyone's post poorly written. Your own posts are borderline incomprehensible.
If you had trouble understanding him it's due to your own lack of English skill, as his post was perfectly coherent.
Protips: Expansion cannot possibly be abbreviated as "exe", the word is cancel not cansel, "i" should be capitalized, it's "more than" not "more then", and that is aside from the generally hard to parse grammar you write with.
As for the argument you are having, several people have explained very clearly why fast expanding to the gold on Antiga against a protoss who went gateway first is an atrocious idea. Their posts were well reasoned, well explained, and very convincing. Your posts have not been convincing at all. And Nestea, who is a very good Zerg, apparently agrees with the people you are arguing against.
I look forward to you winning your first major tournament since you have such a better grasp on the game than (not "then") IMNestea.
"As for the argument you are having, several people have explained very clearly why fast expanding to the gold on Antiga against a protoss who went gateway first is an atrocious idea".
This is just plain wrong. The only case in which it would be a less of a good idea is if you have opend up a way too early pool + investing in more lings than you should have, kind of like Nesta did (i just learned that he made 6 lings which in this case turned out to be atleast 2 unnecessary lings, not changing the scenario by too much though) but this obviously has the same affect on expanding to your natural, but since expanding to the gold is a more delicat thing one could argue that its even more important to get it just right economy wise when taking that exp. Like I have already expplained now, the scenario I have been arguing for is the standard 14 pool/14 gas 1 queen, ling speed, 4 lings into (19 or 20 supply) hatch @ gold. The fact that you are saying this wouldnt be feasible vs a gateway 1 base/gateway + exe opening is just astonishing to me.
Think about it for a second. What is the main difference between putting down your first hatch at the gold compared to at the natural? A shorter distance to the toss main aswell as that highground. The highground doesnt play a significant role at all in the early game zvp though and at a later stage the gold has already taken out its advantage. Why? Because zerg will have melee units and the spines/queens will be able to attack the highground with the 2-3 overlords providing vision (the very first 2 overlords go scouting just like they normally do, so overlord 3, 4 and 5 etc can be used for providing highground vision). So the difference is that its a shorter distance. But you must understand that the cross position antiga gold expansion distance to the protoss main is not even as short of a distance as the previously played Shatterd Temple close spawn distance just to name one scenario. Tell me, did you consider the standard 19/20 supply hatch expansion on Shatterd Temple in that position to not be feasible? Did you argue that "no, a zerg can not plant standard timing hatch exp vs protoss on Shatterd close position, thats insane"?
Shatterd Temple close position was indeed broken but not in the way that a zerg couldnt open a fast or a standard timing exp hatch, but in the way that zerg didnt have a good choice for third exp aswell as the short distance playing a part later in the game. And actually, if the zerg would get a gold natural every game at shatterd (and toss getting a non gold natural) then obviously the closeposs scneario would most definiteley be the other way around, as in a scenario favouring zerg.
Do you know anything about ZvP? Do you consider yourself a good player? Please ask any good Z or P player you come across wether the 14 pool 14 gas into 19/20 hatch at gold is a safe opening vs any common protoss opening (if the protoss would do something like proxy 2 gate "all in" then obviously the zerg would be wise enough to not plant the hatch at the gold) and you will get the same answer. And this is a major reason as for why gold bases as of today are getting rocks added to them or simply getting removed.
Barbu, I think you are asking yourself the wrong question here. The debate is not to know if Nestea BO was good or not but if the cancel of his hatch was mis interprated by the caster. The casters were wrong to think that Nestea would be able to defend his gold hatch vs a 1 gate expand, with the build that he was doing. Everybody seems to agree on that.
Now gentleman, I suggest that we could move on to the initial purpose on the thread and let other people have a feedback on the actual casting instead of still discussing that weird argument about Nestea's BO.
Honestly, I didn't think HD or PainUser did bad. I don't think they were the best team (enjoyed Apollo and CatsPajamas the most), but as a casting duo I think they did fine. There wasn't really anything major that made the games worse for me as a spectator. I think people are blowing things a bit out of proportion here.
On April 10 2012 21:21 Rapture_FBGM wrote: Honestly, I didn't think HD or PainUser did bad. I don't think they were the best team (enjoyed Apollo and CatsPajamas the most), but as a casting duo I think they did fine. There wasn't really anything major that made the games worse for me as a spectator. I think people are blowing things a bit out of proportion here.
Indeed, i think this HD+Painuser sucks bandwagon is getting a little out of hand, wherever, i think they both did fine, maybe they were not as entertaining as apollo and cats, but they didn't suck as people are trying to exagerate
I think HD is a great caster, I don't believe the combination between him and PainUser was good it didn't work and it was noticeable from the start of IPL4
The best from HD was watching the Scarlett vs Oz game where HD solo casted the first game, and my god that was such a nice game to watch and listen to I really enjoyed it not just for the gameplay but HD's commentary over it, nothing was complicated it was explained in the right amount of detail and kept a good eye on everything that was going on So thank you for that HD.
On April 10 2012 14:28 Rube_Juice wrote: Babru are you trolling here or just a bad? 11 Overpool into Hatch at gold on Antiga and you think Z can hold it against a 1 base aggressive Protoss who knows what the fuck he's doing? Never mind hold it, you seem to think Z should be able to crush P with this strat? Dude you have to be joking, PLEASE stop defending your position because you are embarassing yourself here.
A Zerg taking a fast gold without having wasted a lot of larva on lings is indeed an advantagous opening vs any opening by toss and you stating otherwise is embarrassing for you to say the least (very much so If you are a toss or a zerg player). Because that is the scenario i have been arguing for.
In my initial response to the guy i questioned i asked if i had interpreted his poorly written post correctly and that explains why i argued for the scenario that i argued for (as in arguing for the gold opening vs P in general and that it in general is feasible vs whatever opening the toss does).
However, I would still say that making more then 4 initial lings vs a non FFE into planting a fast gold is still somewhat feasible, so even at that point he shouldnt necessarely choose to cansel it. You obviously dont understand the power of that perfectly timed 6-7 drone transfer to the gold into massing units (if the situation so demands it). This is a major reason as to why gold bases are getting removed, because of zergs taking them as their first exe vs p.
I don't think you're in a position to be calling anyone's post poorly written. Your own posts are borderline incomprehensible.
If you had trouble understanding him it's due to your own lack of English skill, as his post was perfectly coherent.
Protips: Expansion cannot possibly be abbreviated as "exe", the word is cancel not cansel, "i" should be capitalized, it's "more than" not "more then", and that is aside from the generally hard to parse grammar you write with.
As for the argument you are having, several people have explained very clearly why fast expanding to the gold on Antiga against a protoss who went gateway first is an atrocious idea. Their posts were well reasoned, well explained, and very convincing. Your posts have not been convincing at all. And Nestea, who is a very good Zerg, apparently agrees with the people you are arguing against.
I look forward to you winning your first major tournament since you have such a better grasp on the game than (not "then") IMNestea.
"As for the argument you are having, several people have explained very clearly why fast expanding to the gold on Antiga against a protoss who went gateway first is an atrocious idea".
This is just plain wrong. The only case in which it would be a less of a good idea is if you have opend up a way too early pool + investing in more lings than you should have, kind of like Nesta did (i just learned that he made 6 lings which in this case turned out to be atleast 2 unnecessary lings, not changing the scenario by too much though) but this obviously has the same affect on expanding to your natural, but since expanding to the gold is a more delicat thing one could argue that its even more important to get it just right economy wise when taking that exp. Like I have already expplained now, the scenario I have been arguing for is the standard 14 pool/14 gas 1 queen, ling speed, 4 lings into (19 or 20 supply) hatch @ gold. The fact that you are saying this wouldnt be feasible vs a gateway 1 base/gateway + exe opening is just astonishing to me.
Think about it for a second. What is the main difference between putting down your first hatch at the gold compared to at the natural? A shorter distance to the toss main aswell as that highground. The highground doesnt play a significant role at all in the early game zvp though and at a later stage the gold has already taken out its advantage. Why? Because zerg will have melee units and the spines/queens will be able to attack the highground with the 2-3 overlords providing vision (the very first 2 overlords go scouting just like they normally do, so overlord 3, 4 and 5 etc can be used for providing highground vision). So the difference is that its a shorter distance. But you must understand that the cross position antiga gold expansion distance to the protoss main is not even as short of a distance as the previously played Shatterd Temple close spawn distance just to name one scenario. Tell me, did you consider the standard 19/20 supply hatch expansion on Shatterd Temple in that position to not be feasible? Did you argue that "no, a zerg can not plant standard timing hatch exp vs protoss on Shatterd close position, thats insane"?
Shatterd Temple close position was indeed broken but not in the way that a zerg couldnt open a fast or a standard timing exp hatch, but in the way that zerg didnt have a good choice for third exp aswell as the short distance playing a part later in the game. And actually, if the zerg would get a gold natural every game at shatterd (and toss getting a non gold natural) then obviously the closeposs scneario would most definiteley be the other way around, as in a scenario favouring zerg.
Do you know anything about ZvP? Do you consider yourself a good player? Please ask any good Z or P player you come across wether the 14 pool 14 gas into 19/20 hatch at gold is a safe opening vs any common protoss opening (if the protoss would do something like proxy 2 gate "all in" then obviously the zerg would be wise enough to not plant the hatch at the gold) and you will get the same answer. And this is a major reason as for why gold bases as of today are getting rocks added to them or simply getting removed.
Barbu, I think you are asking yourself the wrong question here. The debate is not to know if Nestea BO was good or not but if the cancel of his hatch was mis interprated by the caster. The casters were wrong to think that Nestea would be able to defend his gold hatch vs a 1 gate expand, with the build that he was doing. Everybody seems to agree on that.
Now gentleman, I suggest that we could move on to the initial purpose on the thread and let other people have a feedback on the actual casting instead of still discussing that weird argument about Nestea's BO.
Now ive been clear with the fact that ive not seen this particular game. "The casters were wrong to think that Nestea would be able to defend his gold hatch vs a 1 gate expand". This is however what im hearing people saying and what i obviously dont agree with in a general discussion of the scenario. Because that is what ive been talking about, the general scenario of zerg gold first vs p. Now seing as this is a thread about casting and not a thread about strategy analysing i will consider stop posting about it after this one ))
Like ive explained above taking your first exp at the gold with a standard exp timing is in general no problem whatsoever vs a 1 gate expand build and quite frankly vs any common p opening (a proxy 2 gate zealot would be the one big exception but in such a scenario the zerg will simply just not plant his hatch at the gold and if he has done so then yes he will have to cansel it). However, Nestea making an overpool into 6 lings into a gold exp is not at all as good of a scenario as the standard gold opening but i would still reason that its feasible. To make an overpool and 6 lings vs a toss not making FFE is never a good thing regardless of whatever exp you take as your first.
Are people really this fixated on the shorter distance? Again see my point above how zergs were fully capable of pulling of standard exp timings in a close position ZvP @ Shattered Temple (Shatterd close poss though being broken in general when it comes to other aspects, but not when it comes to being able to getting up the first hatch expansion and being stable in that very moment, that is fully feasible and so is the same at Antiga when it comes to taking your gold as your first exp).
On April 10 2012 21:31 Shibbxyz wrote: I think HD is a great caster, I don't believe the combination between him and PainUser was good it didn't work and it was noticeable from the start of IPL4
The best from HD was watching the Scarlett vs Oz game where HD solo casted the first game, and my god that was such a nice game to watch and listen to I really enjoyed it not just for the gameplay but HD's commentary over it, nothing was complicated it was explained in the right amount of detail and kept a good eye on everything that was going on So thank you for that HD.
I think HD is the worst caster there. But I have to agree. The combination HD/Painuser is not a good pairing, no matter what I think of them as individual casters.
I feel like HD works well as a shout caster, but maybe if he could improve his SCII knowledge/analysis aspects he could really work well with someone like CatsPajamas or maybe work well with someone like DOA.
I feel like HD and Painuser didn't really have a defined role together, neither was the shoutcaster or the "analysis guy," they both tried to do half and half and it didn't really work. I like HD better as a solo caster, but I feel like he just needs to focus on one or the other, not try to do both. It's hard to be the analysis guy, so if you're not good at it just don't try to force it. Play to your strengths when casting and be a bit more natural. Don't try to force yourself over the other person and if you want to work really well with Painuser, ask for his opinion on analysis and ask what he thinks the best course of action for player X may be in this position.
Overall, not terrible but you guys can still improve. Try to learn the other races a bit more, maybe just spend the $60 and play random on another account and just figure out the other races to help improve your casting. Hope this helps at all.
I didn't watch much IPL but every time I was watching HD he didn't really know much about the game and seemed more interested in conveying to the audience how he wants to take everyone out to clubs and show them good times. It was really awkward. I guess he's in a phase where that sort of thing is supposed to sound impressive but I felt like i was watching Asian Jersey Shore fumble through video game casts.
I don't care much about casters in general but it seems to really show with the guys who appear to be passionate about the game, like apollo, bitterdam, etc. Regardless of my feelings on SC2 I can tell they like it. I never got that vibe from HD and Painuser
Please just don't analyse the game. Comment on the game, make jokes about the game, just do not analyse. A good analysis is very hard to do in real time, and no one is expecting you to do it, so there is no need to do it. I don't want to offend anyone, I think that both of you are good casters but too often you are misleading the audience when you are analysing the game, or you are saying nonscence.
I will give you an example: HD claimed that the speedlings are the buffer and the roaches are the DPS in the ling roach composition against terran. This is utterly untrue. Roaches are used as meatshields so that the lings can get the angle/surround they need. They are also used because they deal better against hellions than banelings (hence that the games when we see roaches from stephano there has been a helion opening from the opponent.
On April 09 2012 13:26 Sinensis wrote: If you want to get leagues ahead of every other caster out there, never say "This game is over" or anything like that. In the final moments of the game there should be enough going on not to have to accounce the game has ended before it actually has. I would go so far as to say don't announce which player is "winning" ever.
Seriously think of the worst thing your mother/girlfriend/boyfriend/someone who doesn't understand esports could possibly ask you:
It's "Are you winning?"
Artosis & Tasteless say 'this game is over, expect gg' couple minutes before the actual end like in half the matches they cast. And they do it because they know they're right. There's no point in fooling the audience. I, personaly, like it very much, i hate casters trying to give other player chances while he is 100 supplies down because then they start saying stupid things that even a bronze leauger wouldn't believe.
I watched IPL with 2 of my friends and to be honest, we didn't like HD's casting. It's not like we didn't like HD's voice or his way of speaking, I personnally actually really like that. HD missed some events he shouldn't have, didn't show needed data or showed unnecessary data. Following an events like a starting nuclear launch is funny the first time, but simply annoying, when it's shown everytime. The zooming in on events and turning the camera angle is something, i think, should be avoided, too.
I believe it would help, if HD would concentrate more on watching the minimap for events. Watching a lot of streams and other casters would add a lot of knowledge, which can then be successfully utilized during casting. That makes the casting seem more professional instead of the unnerving experience my friends had during your casting time at IPL.
I don't know much about Painusers casting, it seemed to be a little bit overshadowed by HD's performance. I believe that most of the professional comments were done by him, so I can't base an opinion on the experience I had with his casting until now. I hope to hear more of him in the future.
On April 10 2012 22:32 Zcience wrote: I watched IPL with 2 of my friends and to be honest, we didn't like HD's casting. It's not like we didn't like HD's voice or his way of speaking, I personnally actually really like that. HD missed some events he shouldn't have, didn't show needed data or showed unnecessary data. Following an events like a starting nuclear launch is funny the first time, but simply annoying, when it's shown everytime. The zooming in on events and turning the camera angle is something, i think, should be avoided, too.
I believe it would help, if HD would concentrate more on watching the minimap for events. Watching a lot of streams and other casters would add a lot of knowledge, which can then be successfully utilized during casting. That makes the casting seem more professional instead of the unnerving experience my friends had during your casting time at IPL.
I don't know much about Painusers casting, it seemed to be a little bit overshadowed by HD's performance. I believe that most of the professional comments were done by him, so I can't base an opinion on the experience I had with his casting until now. I hope to hear more of him in the future.
I hope you guys keep it up and try to improve!
....that's ST_Legend you're complaining about, he's observer for GSL.
I really like HD's attitude and energy as a caster; I think he has a nice casting spirit. Yes, he can lack knowledge, but that's why there are two casters
PainUser is kind of the opposite. Something about his voice or personality or something miffs me on a purely subjective, personal level.
I enjoyed seeing HD in some other casting combinations.
HD was a little off during IPL4 but he is imo one of the best in the IPLcrew, felt like painuser were pushing back HD a few times and HD would do a lot better with some one else.
On April 10 2012 22:32 Zcience wrote: I watched IPL with 2 of my friends and to be honest, we didn't like HD's casting. It's not like we didn't like HD's voice or his way of speaking, I personnally actually really like that. HD missed some events he shouldn't have, didn't show needed data or showed unnecessary data. Following an events like a starting nuclear launch is funny the first time, but simply annoying, when it's shown everytime. The zooming in on events and turning the camera angle is something, i think, should be avoided, too.
I believe it would help, if HD would concentrate more on watching the minimap for events. Watching a lot of streams and other casters would add a lot of knowledge, which can then be successfully utilized during casting. That makes the casting seem more professional instead of the unnerving experience my friends had during your casting time at IPL.
I don't know much about Painusers casting, it seemed to be a little bit overshadowed by HD's performance. I believe that most of the professional comments were done by him, so I can't base an opinion on the experience I had with his casting until now. I hope to hear more of him in the future.
I hope you guys keep it up and try to improve!
....that's ST_Legend you're complaining about, he's observer for GSL.
MMA vs Stephano - 23:00 CEST (+02:00) - Losers Round Two
On April 10 2012 22:32 Zcience wrote: I watched IPL with 2 of my friends and to be honest, we didn't like HD's casting. It's not like we didn't like HD's voice or his way of speaking, I personnally actually really like that. HD missed some events he shouldn't have, didn't show needed data or showed unnecessary data. Following an events like a starting nuclear launch is funny the first time, but simply annoying, when it's shown everytime. The zooming in on events and turning the camera angle is something, i think, should be avoided, too.
I believe it would help, if HD would concentrate more on watching the minimap for events. Watching a lot of streams and other casters would add a lot of knowledge, which can then be successfully utilized during casting. That makes the casting seem more professional instead of the unnerving experience my friends had during your casting time at IPL.
I don't know much about Painusers casting, it seemed to be a little bit overshadowed by HD's performance. I believe that most of the professional comments were done by him, so I can't base an opinion on the experience I had with his casting until now. I hope to hear more of him in the future.
I hope you guys keep it up and try to improve!
....that's ST_Legend you're complaining about, he's observer for GSL.
MMA vs Stephano - 23:00 CEST (+02:00) - Losers Round Two
I watched that game, they used Legend for IPL4 since he was there for GSTL. What's your point?
On April 10 2012 22:32 Zcience wrote: I watched IPL with 2 of my friends and to be honest, we didn't like HD's casting. It's not like we didn't like HD's voice or his way of speaking, I personnally actually really like that. HD missed some events he shouldn't have, didn't show needed data or showed unnecessary data. Following an events like a starting nuclear launch is funny the first time, but simply annoying, when it's shown everytime. The zooming in on events and turning the camera angle is something, i think, should be avoided, too.
I believe it would help, if HD would concentrate more on watching the minimap for events. Watching a lot of streams and other casters would add a lot of knowledge, which can then be successfully utilized during casting. That makes the casting seem more professional instead of the unnerving experience my friends had during your casting time at IPL.
I don't know much about Painusers casting, it seemed to be a little bit overshadowed by HD's performance. I believe that most of the professional comments were done by him, so I can't base an opinion on the experience I had with his casting until now. I hope to hear more of him in the future.
I hope you guys keep it up and try to improve!
....that's ST_Legend you're complaining about, he's observer for GSL.
MMA vs Stephano - 23:00 CEST (+02:00) - Losers Round Two
I watched that game, they used Legend for IPL4 since he was there for GSTL. What's your point?
On April 10 2012 22:32 Zcience wrote: I watched IPL with 2 of my friends and to be honest, we didn't like HD's casting. It's not like we didn't like HD's voice or his way of speaking, I personnally actually really like that. HD missed some events he shouldn't have, didn't show needed data or showed unnecessary data. Following an events like a starting nuclear launch is funny the first time, but simply annoying, when it's shown everytime. The zooming in on events and turning the camera angle is something, i think, should be avoided, too.
I believe it would help, if HD would concentrate more on watching the minimap for events. Watching a lot of streams and other casters would add a lot of knowledge, which can then be successfully utilized during casting. That makes the casting seem more professional instead of the unnerving experience my friends had during your casting time at IPL.
I don't know much about Painusers casting, it seemed to be a little bit overshadowed by HD's performance. I believe that most of the professional comments were done by him, so I can't base an opinion on the experience I had with his casting until now. I hope to hear more of him in the future.
I hope you guys keep it up and try to improve!
....that's ST_Legend you're complaining about, he's observer for GSL.
MMA vs Stephano - 23:00 CEST (+02:00) - Losers Round Two
I watched that game, they used Legend for IPL4 since he was there for GSTL. What's your point?
And Legend's observing is amazing. I was watching IPL with a friend and we both commented on how good the obs was. I even said "this guy's like Startale_Legend" and then later we found out that there was a good reason for that! ^^
On topic; enjoyed PainUser's casting and analysis. HD seems like a nice guy but needs loads more game knowledge to be legit.
I don't like HD or PainUser. I especially don't like it when they cast together. HD has a great attitude and he loves eSports, but he just has very little game knowledge and even someone who doesn't play at a very high level notices it. PainUser has a lot more game knowledge, but it just kind of a boring caster. They don't work particularly well together. I think recombining them with other casters that balance it out would help.
I am on the same opinion as many seem to be, that I liked PainUser, and if the poll was only for him, I'd vote yes. But as it stands, I voted no. You're a nice guy with a seemingly nice personality as well, but, I generally get a little bit pissed off when there is a caster making claims about the game, knowledge-based claims, which simply do not add up (Tasteless does this a lot as well). I can accept minor mistakes in between in the analysis, but if you're doing it every other game, it gets to you. At least that's how I experienced it. From my perspective, what you could do, is study the game more beforehand, builds counters etc. or simply be less analytical.
However, it's always nice to see new duos popping up in the casting industry, and I truly hope you guys do well and wish you the best of luck.
PainUser: I like your desire to be enthusiastic, but don't overdo it. Natural speech comes across to the viewers a lot better and will bring out more emotion in the long run. I feel you try to use creative words too often, which is great because you don't say a lot of things other repeat too much, but still if it doesn't come out naturally it just sounds like you're trying too hard. You also have a tendency to repeat what the other person has said. Not a bad review by any means, but if you're looking to some feedback from an average watcher that's what I got for ya.
HD: Haven't really sat in on a lot of your casts to be honest. You got the look, you got the sound, you got the energy. I can't really complain. I think you get flustered sometimes so you will trip over words and seem to be searching for the next thing to say. I would do the same if not worse though, keep it up and just keep analyzing other players styles so you can provide a bit more feedback on what's going on and typical builds you see players do and such.
Overall, pretty good. Painuser should stick to playing though
Edit: Just to give some examples. You know when you're watching a bad TV show, and it's only bad because it's overplayed and you can tell the actors are acting the way they are just for the camera? Doesn't come naturally, little to no personality to where you feel a connection with that character. That's what I would say here. Reading above some people mention Tasteosis and how they make mistakes as well - this is true BUT they're funny and their personalities are truly who they are, they aren't being fake for the camera or because they feel this is how you are supposed to speak when commentating.
In a PvZ on Antiga at IPL, the protoss went for forge fast expo and PainUser noted that it was a great map for forge fast expo. The next day in another PvZ on Antiga, the protoss went gateway/cyber etc at the top of the ramp and PainUser noted that it is a risky map for trying forge fast expo.
Seriously are you just making stuff up as you go along? This was frustrating...
Overall the casting was smooth and you guys manage to go through things such as awkward lags/pauses with fluidity.
On April 11 2012 03:18 VasHeR wrote: In a PvZ on Antiga at IPL, the protoss went for forge fast expo and PainUser noted that it was a great map for forge fast expo. The next day in another PvZ on Antiga, the protoss went gateway/cyber etc at the top of the ramp and PainUser noted that it is a risky map for trying forge fast expo.
Seriously are you just making stuff up as you go along? This was frustrating...
Overall the casting was smooth and you guys manage to go through things such as awkward lags/pauses with fluidity.
While he articulated it poorly (or maybe you're right and he just doesn't know), it is possible for both of those statements to be true. The structure of the natural makes it good for FFE, whether you do it around your Nexus or at the ramp, but because of the gold minerals in the middle, you are vulnerable to a Zerg taking that base and taking an early lead that is often insurmountable. So while the physical structure of the map favors FFE, the current meta-game says that if you FFE, Zerg will take the gold without impunity. But he didn't articulate the differences there.
Other than that, like everyone else, I feel like HD should continue to work on his game knowledge, which was painfully lacking at times. I also don't think they pair very well together, and could benefit from a CatsPajamas/PainUser and HD/Apollo pairing.
I wasn't digging the HD/PainUser combo at IPL at all. I feel like both casters are a little too enthusiastic, and try to inject drama when there really isn't any. It just doesn't feel authentic when every minor skirmish has the casters shouting into the microphone.
It's like they're trying too hard to be "the caster" instead of just being themselves. That's what makes Tastosis so good - they seem like they're having fun in the booth. They're confident. They make mistakes, but they shrug them off without being self-conscious about it. There's something natural about their casting, and while I'm sure HD and PainUser can get closer to that ideal with practice, I'm not sure they'll ever be top-tier casters.
I realize this isn't the most helpful or concrete feedback, but it's the way I see it.
I think you guys are funny, and you are definitely comfortable with eachother and have great chemistry! However HD, you need to relax more. Be more natural. I don't care about game knowledge, I know the game myself well enough, but sometimes you seem a little "fake" for lack of better word. To Painuser just keep smoking that weed man :D
On April 11 2012 20:01 BM_Rawbertson wrote: i know enough about the game i dont really care if the caster is knowledgeable its more about liking the personality.
So misleading your audience is okay as long as some people understand it? So you would be okay with a football caster talking about how the point of the game is to get grand slams because you understand the rules already?
Hey guys, just wanted to say I have read over every single post here for IPL4 feedback and I really appreciate the constructive criticism. I will be taking what I deem to be intelligent criticism to heart and trying to perfect my craft of casting. This is my job and I take it very seriosly. The positive comments also really help, it is good for me to reinforce those things that people enjoy.
Many opinions noted, but please try to stay constructive. I will try to continue to read up on any criticisms of me with any casting that I do. Sorry if you don't feel IPL4 was up to par but I put tons of effort into my analysis casting before and during the event. All I can say is that I will continue to try and improve and impress everytime I put myself out there.
On April 11 2012 20:01 BM_Rawbertson wrote: i know enough about the game i dont really care if the caster is knowledgeable its more about liking the personality.
So misleading your audience is okay as long as some people understand it? So you would be okay with a football caster talking about how the point of the game is to get grand slams because you understand the rules already?
He seemed fine to me, and certainly I didn't see any "misleading" things equivalent to "a football caster talking about how the point of the game is to get grand slams."
I don't learn anything from any casters basically except when idra or another pro gamer casts analytically. Therefore, I like casters that I like. I wouldn't be playing SC2 if it wasn't for HD's casts on youtube, as I'm sure is the case for several hundred (thousand?) people so he'll always have a place in my heart.
Still, I have no idea why HD was getting so much hate.
i think painuser does pretty well in the matchups he is familiar with, but can have trouble with non terran matchups. one particular example from IPL4 would be Nestea vs Squirtle game 1 on Antiga. he didn't seem to understand why Nestea tried to take the gold but then canceled it when it was fairly obvious he was anticipating a fast expand but had to cancel when his overlord saw that squirtle had opened gatway first instead of a forge.
there is a build specifically designed for that version of the map where you pool slightly early, take the gold, double gas in your main and do a baneling bust to exploit the wide ramp. i expect this is what Nestea was going to do given that he took the gold as his 2nd base instead of his 3rd.
overall i think he does a good job but he could benefit from studying some of the matchups that he may not be as familiar with.
On April 11 2012 20:01 BM_Rawbertson wrote: i know enough about the game i dont really care if the caster is knowledgeable its more about liking the personality.
So misleading your audience is okay as long as some people understand it? So you would be okay with a football caster talking about how the point of the game is to get grand slams because you understand the rules already?
This is a pretty drastic, unfair comparison. He's definitely not "misleading" the audience, and even if some of his information isn't entirely sophisticated or game revealing it's not like HD is saying "Build grunts and paladins and gyrocopters!"...he still can commentate the game without having a tertiary level of game knowledge.
And again, misleading is a pretty bold word manggg.
HD got a lot of flack this tournament for supposedly bad casting. While he isn't unbelievably knowledgeable, I thought he was entertaining and called the action pretty well. His knowledge of Zerg matchups is relatively solid, too. It's tough to look good when you're followed by CatsPajamas and dApollo, who completely killed it.
HD was the first caster I followed on youtube and I enjoyed his casts. As a casting pair with Painuser you two have good chemistry and in terms of the level of professionalism there are no complaints but keep in mind that when casting in pairs the other caster is the entertainer and the other is the analyzer. I'd suggest that you let Painuser do the analysis and concentrate on entertaining.
Keep up the good work and don't let the haters get in the way of awesome SC2 casting!
Most of it I can take tongue and cheeck. But the Reddit community really ripped HD a new asshole. Most of it wasn't even constructive at all. Just hurtful stuff and not helpful. And at the end of the day, what the fans want/like is the best way to do things. I still try to maintain my style but adapting can't possibly hurt.
Sorry PainUser, but HD is holding you back. As much as I like what HD is trying to do, you really are the more knowledgeable and entertaining caster by far. HD also has a grating voice.
I enjoyed the casts personally. Obviously HD isn't as knowledgeable about the game s dApollo but thats not always necessary. Sometimes it can be irritating casters make a wrong call and continue to do so during the game. Examples can be misjudging the outcome of a long slow engagement or the Antiga Shipyard example used earlier in this thread. But that can happen on occasion and it really doesn't bother me much. Stylistically I think HD and Painuser are just fine and that is the most important part for me. They are entertaining to listen to and can properly describe the broad stokes of the game, even if sometimes they get some specifics wrong.
Ive been watching and enjoying HDs broadcasts since it was a big deal to have HD casts (like way back pre-beta). Love that guy. PainUser on the other hand I havent seen nearly as much of. Both of them I think are great, but I have one little piece of constructive critisism. PainUser calles every zerg counter attack a run-by. A run-by my friend is when the lings RUN-BY the defenses, not when the terran army is way out in the middle of the map and some lings attack his 3rd.
Much love dude, but it makes me cringe every time (and it happens a LOT).
Also I just want to say that the hate is way over the top. You guys both do a great job which the community at large appreciates and enjoys. IPL4 was a fantastic tourney (even if I wasnt able to catch all of it). Please dont let the haters get to you!
On April 13 2012 01:00 PainUser wrote: Most of it I can take tongue and cheeck. But the Reddit community really ripped HD a new asshole. Most of it wasn't even constructive at all. Just hurtful stuff and not helpful. And at the end of the day, what the fans want/like is the best way to do things. I still try to maintain my style but adapting can't possibly hurt.
i hope you realize that people that support you guys are simply not taking their time making sure you get that message ("hey PainUser, great job on IPL" ^^), while the loud minority runs rampant shitting on everything and leaving the feel of overall fan dissatisfaction, which actually isn't the case
i'm all for constructive criticsm and ideas on how to improve, but when 7 out of 10 guys shit on YOUR game knowledge of all the casters out there, just because you were paired up with HD - and we all know HD is no Day9 so let's make sure we point it out every time we get the chance - it's really hard to take them seriously, and the difference between bashing and criticsm becomes very clear.
so don't take anything away from yourself because of such individuals, their interest in sc2 will pass or they will get out of puberty, either way, they'll learn that you just don't do shit like that without getting your facts straight. we all know you're the next best thing to Artosis when it comes to analytical casting, so keep it up and ignore the haters
p.s. no show against BoxeR in NASL S1 was a dumb and disrespectfull thing to do, especially considering you were just starting to get a lot more exposure back then... /constructive criticsm
My advice for Painuser would be to be yourself more. You have good knowledge of the game and can offer good casting material wise, but I often felt like you were just trying to hard to sound "professional". It ended up just coming off nervous or over enthusiastic over really minute little things, but it was like an awkward enthusiasm I don't really know how to describe it. It sounds often like you are being empathetic to what happens to the players in the game than being an outsider looking in. Tasteless and Artosis are a good example of just being completely authentic and natural while they are casting..even catspajamas does a good job in this respect while sounding really professional. I guess this isn't super clear, but TLDR; Just try and cast being more yourself and less trying really hard to sound like a "professional caster". Just giving good game commentary and avoiding bad words is enough to do a great job when you actually have insight on the game. All the extra inflection and stuff takes away from it in my opinion.
For HD, if you don't know a lot, thats ok, but less predictions on what the player is going to do, because its just awkward when you are way off. Avoiding those situations would go a long way to getting people off your back, bc otherwise you are authentic and have a good casting voice and can play by play pretty well.
I honestly think the casting at IPL was fine. It wasn't the greatest casting ever, but it never got on my nerves either. If you want constructive criticism though:
HD: Your knowledge of non-zerg matchups is a bit lacking and it might be better to really stick to play-by-play in that case. Your voice is smooth as butter and best served when sticking most to play-by-play
Painuser, I think you're a funny guy and I always enjoy hearing your thoughts on games. Don't let the haters get to you :-)
I really enjoyed the casting. I liked Painuser's style a bit more, but that's just personal preference.
If there's one thing I could ask for you guys to improve it would just be please stop using filler sentences as much. It seemed like HD was a bit more guilty of it, but that's natural because he's generally a play by play caster. But I can't stand certain sentences that are just thrown out there a couple times every game. "As best as he possibly can" springs to mind. Of course he's trying the best he can, that's just a dumb filler line. Other than that keep up the good work :D
When HD and Painuser started regular casting at ipl stream I thought it was really awesome. Much of it was not trying to be the most professional casters always afraid of what they might say. It led to some really funny situations where HD said something and painuser didn't know whether to cry or laugh and it created a great dynamic between the two. I find the kind of casting with all suited up @ ipl4 not working nearly as well. I don't know if it's the nerves or lack of experience but HD seemed to babble a lot because he felt he needed to talk all the time? Like when they introduced the players, i dont remember who it was but a TvP or TvZ and HD said the terran player may go for even sky terran (which would never ever happen :D), also the slight "panic" when idra was 0-4 and HD was wondering if idra can advance. It's ok to stop and think once in a while, you don't need to talk 300 words per minute.
Are you guys doing regular casting anymore? I remember seeing only cats&doa on ipl streams. Also the times one of you were playing and the other one commenting/coaching were really good.
I think people are just jumping the bandwagon on hating HD without actually knowing why they hate him. Yes, he isnt as knowledgeable as most casters, but his job isnt to teach you how to play. His job is to make the game entertaining and hype up the boring phases of the game and during battles. Look at the Stephano Vs. MMA game 2, stephano lost waaaay before the nukes (4 base going on 5 base terran vs 3 base zerg) and i think HD did a great job trying to hype up a boring won game.He just need to work on a few minor things but other than that he did a great job this weekend.
I agree that the criticism of HD and PainUser has been WAAAAY over the top. I was at IPL4 in Vegas for all 3 days, and while no one is perfect and there is always room for improvement, I think HD and PU do a relatively good job. Don't let the vocal minority get to you guys! Just take the constructive feedback that's been posted, work and improve and just keep on going at it! Hope to see you guys in more casts in the future!
I don't like posting on TL in general because the community seems to be so anal about comments made here. With that said though, I do read most of the material and feel like I owe you a post because, like others in this thread, you got me interested in SC beyond a casual game. Here are my thoughts:
I thought that your casting at IPL4 in Vegas was fine, not great. As has been said, I think the two areas of improvement are game knowledge and casting presence. As far as game knowledge goes, I don't think that it is nearly as big of an issue as people are making it out to be. I don't think that you are at the level of a Doa or Artosis where they heavily study the Korean metagame, but people are acting like you haven't been around the block. I think that your analytical commentary is far superior to Wheat or TotalBiscuit. To me it was clear that you weren't casting particularly well because you were simply nervous. I think that the quality of your live casts decrease compared to your private, solo casts more than any caster I know. Personally I don't blame you, because the SC community, while great, is incredibly critical and unforgiving. In terms of style and energy, don't try to be someone different than the casting personality that many have grown to love. My advice would be to find more ways to cast in front of live crowds, but not necessarily at large highly publicized events to just work on your stage presence. This leads into my next point which is in fact your stage presence. The problem is half due to nerves and half due to chemistry with PU. In my view, the problem is that PU is a very sarcastic guy who jokes by ragging on people. Your style on the other hand is just to be an incredibly nice guy, and more often than not you poke fun at yourself. PainUser's humor works out when the other caster is equally sarcastic and so then they can have equal banter back and forth. When he takes jabs at you, you end up just accepting it. I think that spending more time casting with PainUser, maybe even for just your stream, could help pan out your team chemistry. Please don't give up or take to heart the haterade on TL or Reddit.
Dear PainUser,
I really only started following you because you teamed up with HD. I think you game analysis is great. In terms of casting humor, I think that you just need to work with HD to sync up your senses of humor. Your voice kills me. Is it possible to get a new voice?
On April 13 2012 06:32 phodacbiet wrote: I think people are just jumping the bandwagon on hating HD without actually knowing why they hate him. Yes, he isnt as knowledgeable as most casters, but his job isnt to teach you how to play. His job is to make the game entertaining and hype up the boring phases of the game and during battles. Look at the Stephano Vs. MMA game 2, stephano lost waaaay before the nukes (4 base going on 5 base terran vs 3 base zerg) and i think HD did a great job trying to hype up a boring won game.He just need to work on a few minor things but other than that he did a great job this weekend.
I think the general consensus is that if you deliver misinformation, then the overall entertainment value decreases. I agree that HD's role in the PainUser/HD duel right now is to entertain and not to give the analysis. I think HD needs to draw a clear line between the analytical caster and the colour caster, at least for now until he gets a deeper understanding of the game. For example (and this is by no means an extensive one), PainUser should take care of explaining the upgrades, timings, etc. while HD tackles the main army confrontations, drops, expansions, etc.
way OTT reactions to ipl4, i watched a bit of it and thought it was fine. Nothing amazing but watchable. as per usual the reddit/TL community gets tainted by a very minor vocal group because they cant control their hormones properly and somehow see Starcraft and everything around it like its their godgiven right to have it perfectly how they want it to be.
it doesnt take a genius to work out that esports commentators are few and far between and we should support those we have , not chastise them and tell them that they dont belong.
Heck I think HD has been around the community a damn sight longer then most people posting in this thread and HD/Husky combined are quite clearly responsible with their early Youtube marketing in driving up interest and sales of starcraft 2....
i always lol when you say something like: Battle cruiser gonna blow a load of yamato :D or "its hard for protoss players to deal with terran bio balls" :D
One thing I noticed is that you guys were not observant of what the observer was showing on screen. You guys had the best observer in the world in ST_Legend who basically casts a game by himself. Be more cognizant of whats on the screen. Keep your heads up. Keep working hard!
On April 12 2012 14:53 Parcelleus wrote: Painuser and HD,
You guys have been the subject of internet trolls with nothing better to do.
You guys are friendly , love SC2, human - which means errors can occur - big deal.
You guys are a pleasure to watch, and you make a great team.
Keep it up , and ignore the haters, not worth wasting your energy on.
Cheers, Parcelleus.
Fucking being friendly and loving sc2 isn't enough to be a good caster. This thread exists so that they can read criticism and improve. We do not need useless posts like yours that exist only to circlejerk their fanboyism for them.
Anyway, I'm glad Painuser and HD stated that they are reading and trying to learn from these threads. It's always nice when they actually respond and try to improve.
On April 11 2012 20:01 BM_Rawbertson wrote: i know enough about the game i dont really care if the caster is knowledgeable its more about liking the personality.
So misleading your audience is okay as long as some people understand it? So you would be okay with a football caster talking about how the point of the game is to get grand slams because you understand the rules already?
He seemed fine to me, and certainly I didn't see any "misleading" things equivalent to "a football caster talking about how the point of the game is to get grand slams."
I don't learn anything from any casters basically except when idra or another pro gamer casts analytically. Therefore, I like casters that I like. I wouldn't be playing SC2 if it wasn't for HD's casts on youtube, as I'm sure is the case for several hundred (thousand?) people so he'll always have a place in my heart.
Still, I have no idea why HD was getting so much hate.
HD, especially when he doesn't have a co-caster, just says a lot of things which are straight up wrong. For example, in the scarlett vs oz game 2, scarlett went for a 7 pool, but because hd was harping on about the colour of the t shirt of the producer or something for the first 2 minutes of the game, he didn't even notice until the pool was finished, he then saw there were ten drones finnished and declared it a 10 pool, saying it wasn't all in and that it was a clever pressure into expand build...
Its things like this where casters say things which are directly wrong simply because they lack the game knowledge and/or are not paying attention to the game which make people really not like them, as a lot of people watch casting to learn, and if you never know if the caster has a clue what he's talking about, then you can't take anything he says at face value.
I think HD either needs to practice alot and get a better understanding of all the matchups, or stick to being a play by play caster and not make any calls on strategy at all, leaving that to his better qualified co-caster. there are quite a few awkward moments (alot fewer recently though) where HD would say something, and painuser would then say the opposite about 10 seconds later, and HD would just agree with him, and i'm sitting here trying to work out what the casters are actually trying to say.
Also, as quite a few people have said before, both painuser and HD have a tendency to get a little too excited when nothing is happening. If its just the begining of a game, or if one of the players has lost their entire main and is just microing a marine for the hell of it before gg-ing, there is no need to try and make it seem like its the most exciting thing you've ever seen. While i understand the need to make the cast feel interesting, this kind of enthusiasm just feels really fake, and because i have the feeling that the enthusiasm isn't genuine i find it alot harder to get amped up in the next game when something exciting is actually happening, because the casters tone is still the same excited pitch. If your always excited, then when something actually exciting happens, you can't turn it up anymore, leading to an entire cast at the same level of excitement which is rather flat.
finally, i feel like hd and painuser seem to go on tangents for a bit too long at the start of a game, not saying anything about the builds til quite late into the game, and sometimes go on tangents in the middle of a game and end up missing major tech decisions and such because of it. the place for discussing anything not directly related to the game is between having announced the players, and when the commitment to a build is done, after that please focus on the game.
Didn't meant to write that much but i sort of rambled :p, hopefully it doesn't come across as too negative, and hope to see you improve further.
HD and PU are not my favorite casters by far but it's good that they are trying to improve. While Tastosis is probably the best duo right now, today I had to watch a game in the GSL where a good 5 mins were spent listening to Artosis and Tasteless talk about Pokemon.
If I understood Korean, I would probably listen to the Korean commentators since they seem to bring the most excitement to the games and in-depth commentary as well. Not to mention professionalism.
Alex, if you were even close to a bad caster, people wouldn't be so mad when you make little mistakes; they would merely expect it. And while you did make make some mistakes this weekend, I'd just like to say that you are still an amazing caster, and you engage your audience very well. I appreciate all of the work that you do for the community. If I had to give you any constructive critisism, it would be to maybe work on learning the Terran and Protoss metagame a little bit better; you are a good Zerg player but your expertise in the other areas sometimes falls short sometimes.
I love PU's casting. Especially lately. He seems to have learned a lot from the Voice! His inflection used to be a bit lacking but now he sounds great. Keep up the good work! (and of course his analysis is very good!)
The hate for HD is so over-exaggerated it's not even funny.. He's by no means the worst caster in the world. To make myself clear, HD is nowhere near my favorite caster..but there are casters I know to be worse SC2 players than him that are more accepted by the community and not criticized for their lack of game knowledge..
I think HD's main issue isn't his game knowledge (my understanding was he is a mid-high masters player? Which isn't saying much but is as good as most casters except Day9, Artosis and Bitterdam.. and better than others like catspajamas and even djwheat if I am not mistaken).. the main issue is that he seems to miss stuff when trying to fill empty casting space with his talking.. I think HD is used to solo casting and tries to cram too much talking into the cast..
On April 13 2012 11:24 JLew wrote: The hate for HD is so over-exaggerated it's not even funny.. He's by no means the worst caster in the world. To make myself clear, HD is nowhere near my favorite caster..but there are casters I know to be worse SC2 players than him that are more accepted by the community and not criticized for their lack of game knowledge..
I think HD's main issue isn't his game knowledge (my understanding was he is a mid-high masters player? Which isn't saying much but is as good as most casters except Day9, Artosis and Bitterdam.. and better than others like catspajamas and even djwheat if I am not mistaken).. the main issue is that he seems to miss stuff when trying to fill empty casting space with his talking.. I think HD is used to solo casting and tries to cram too much talking into the cast..
I think the big thing is that when hd doesn't know something for sure, he takes a stab at it, whereas catspajamas wouldn't claim to know something. Because people seem to only get all ruffled up when casters make a mistake, hd takes a lot of heat whereas catspajamas plays it safer.
HD - I think the clear thing here is that you aren't as good live as you are when you cast in a studio, pressure, nerves, whatever it is its like anything else, you get better with practice. Also, its hard when you hype something up, and it stays at plateaued because you started hyping it to soon. It should be like a crescendo to the climax, which don't get me wrong, is very hard to do. I guess it improves with game knowledge.
Pain - I love your stuff, keep it up, and its not even because your pretty, question mark
On April 13 2012 11:24 JLew wrote: The hate for HD is so over-exaggerated it's not even funny.. He's by no means the worst caster in the world. To make myself clear, HD is nowhere near my favorite caster..but there are casters I know to be worse SC2 players than him that are more accepted by the community and not criticized for their lack of game knowledge..
I think HD's main issue isn't his game knowledge (my understanding was he is a mid-high masters player? Which isn't saying much but is as good as most casters except Day9, Artosis and Bitterdam.. and better than others like catspajamas and even djwheat if I am not mistaken).. the main issue is that he seems to miss stuff when trying to fill empty casting space with his talking.. I think HD is used to solo casting and tries to cram too much talking into the cast..
I think the big thing is that when hd doesn't know something for sure, he takes a stab at it, whereas catspajamas wouldn't claim to know something. Because people seem to only get all ruffled up when casters make a mistake, hd takes a lot of heat whereas catspajamas plays it safer.
Yes, and that's always been the knock on HD. It's better to be honest about what you know (as TB and Cats do) than try to make up stuff. It's like continually lying to get out of a bigger lie, instead of actually just being honest and realistic. Saying something completely wrong is infinitely worse for medium level+ knowledge viewers than making no analysis/prediction and just describing the game. Granted, I'm more critical than most but it's not like I randomly spew venom and never re-evaluate my stances, and I don't make judgements based on things like "hyping up the crowd too much" or their voice.
When HDH first ran during the beta two years ago, I made the exact same criticisms of HD and Husky as I have in this thread, and it's the exact same criticisms we made of Klazart before that. Being popular and drawing in viewers doesn't excuse bad information and bad representations of the game. New/low level people won't realize this, but hopefully they get more involved in the game and gain more knowledge, in which case their tastes in casters often changes. There's been dozens of such comments in this thread reflecting that.
After HDH ended, I commended HD because he was actually starting to ladder and stream, and I thought he was putting in the work to become a higher level caster, whereas Husky was just making music videos. Fastforward to mid-last year and the situations completely reversed. Husky was making leaps and bounds from MLG to MLG, while HD seemed stagnant at IPL3 as he did at IPL4. To make it any more specific, I would have to go back and re-watch IPL4 which I just don't want to do (and there's been many examples posted in this thread), but the theme of my complaint has been the same from HDH to IPL3 to IPL4. You can cater to casual fans without providing bad information. That's what the top play by play guys have learned to do, and it doesn't even require Masters level knowledge.
Love you guys you are both very entertaining and you both do well together casting that is =p but as for the actually casting I cant really say I am only gold and cant really say how well you both did with the whole analyzing of the games.
On April 13 2012 11:24 JLew wrote: The hate for HD is so over-exaggerated it's not even funny.. He's by no means the worst caster in the world. To make myself clear, HD is nowhere near my favorite caster..but there are casters I know to be worse SC2 players than him that are more accepted by the community and not criticized for their lack of game knowledge..
I think HD's main issue isn't his game knowledge (my understanding was he is a mid-high masters player? Which isn't saying much but is as good as most casters except Day9, Artosis and Bitterdam.. and better than others like catspajamas and even djwheat if I am not mistaken).. the main issue is that he seems to miss stuff when trying to fill empty casting space with his talking.. I think HD is used to solo casting and tries to cram too much talking into the cast..
I think the big thing is that when hd doesn't know something for sure, he takes a stab at it, whereas catspajamas wouldn't claim to know something. Because people seem to only get all ruffled up when casters make a mistake, hd takes a lot of heat whereas catspajamas plays it safer.
This is the single most important point in this entire thread (may have been stated before but it is well said here).
HD is a great guy, but as a caster you have to know and play to your strengths and weaknesses. Look at djWHEAT as an example. He knows that he doesn't know something, so he will ask his co-caster (such as day9). This may seem like it will reveal your lack of knowledge, but it's quite the opposite! He asks the best questions because while he may not know something, it's quite likely many viewers do not know the same thing. Thus he gets day9 to respond with great information and everyone is happy. Instead, what you (HD) do is definitively declare something that is wrong. A good example that comes to mind is the losers finals at IPL4 between squirtle and nestea (IIRC). On tal'darim, squirtle gets a stargate (he is going to be up against a baneling allin), and you declare in the cast that the stargate is "horrible" and an awful decision. If you would simply ask painuser "what do you think of this stargate? Do you think it's a good idea?" Or "what do you think this stargate will help him with?" you would be in such a better position. Instead you definitively state that squirtle is terrible and made a terrible decision when in fact it was the best decision he could possibly have made in that position, and was the decision that won him the game.
Try to be more neutral when you aren't sure of something and ask questions instead of stating facts. You are co-casting, not solo casting. Use the resource of a co-caster you have available to you!
Can someone link me to the infamous Reddit post? I can't seem to find it. >.< Anyways, aside from that here is my personal feedback. I've said this before but I would just like to reemphasize this. HD, be yourself. Back in the HDH you had great complement with Husky as you were more analytical and Husky was more joking. Nowadays, you seem to be trying to manage that role as well. I will be honest that you just aren't the most funny person (maybe its just the Asian awkwardness (I'm Asian as well and I sometimes feel that its just more difficult to speak more emotionally (I think its just a vocal range thing))). Be yourself! Don't force yourself to try and be funny. You're entertaining enough already.
As for Painuser, you're doing great. Nothing really else to say. Good luck you guys!
I'm really tired of the perception that it's OK for casters not to know the ins and outs of the game they are commentating. It's completely ridiculous. It wouldn't be remotely acceptable in any other sport, so why Starcraft? It actually completely doesn't make any sense. HD should be laughed out of events until he actually knows what he's talking about, and we shouldn't be forgiving. It's embarrassing that someone so out-of-touch with the professional scene is casting a high-profile professional event.
Was he better on Sunday than Friday? Yeah. Does that mean he should have been there at all on Friday? No.
On April 13 2012 13:27 tsuxiit wrote: I'm really tired of the perception that it's OK for casters not to know the ins and outs of the game they are commentating. It's completely ridiculous. It wouldn't be remotely acceptable in any other sport, so why Starcraft? It's actually completely ridiculous and doesn't make any sense. HD should be laughed out of events until he actually knows what he's talking about, and we shouldn't be forgiving. It's embarrassing that someone so out-of-touch with the professional scene is casting a high-profile professional event.
Was he better on Sunday than Friday? Yeah. Does that mean he should have been there at all on Friday? No.
I don't get this... and these kinds of comments. Do people who post like this realize that he is High Masters or is still Grandmasters league? Same for Painuser. When I see a comment like this I feel to myself, can you yourself post to us and show to us that you are more highly skilled than he is, so that we know you have this experience and skill that he does not, instead of complaining blindly.
On April 13 2012 13:27 tsuxiit wrote: I'm really tired of the perception that it's OK for casters not to know the ins and outs of the game they are commentating. It's completely ridiculous. It wouldn't be remotely acceptable in any other sport, so why Starcraft? It's actually completely ridiculous and doesn't make any sense. HD should be laughed out of events until he actually knows what he's talking about, and we shouldn't be forgiving. It's embarrassing that someone so out-of-touch with the professional scene is casting a high-profile professional event.
Was he better on Sunday than Friday? Yeah. Does that mean he should have been there at all on Friday? No.
I don't get this... and these kinds of comments. Do people who post like this realize that he is High Masters or is still Grandmasters league? Same for Painuser. When I see a comment like this I feel to myself, can you yourself post to us and show to us that you are more highly skilled than he is, so that we know you have this experience and skill that he does not, instead of complaining blindly.
Are you serious? It has absolutely nothing to do with how skilled I am. If you hear a good, intelligent caster who himself is a pro player and truly knows how to describe and narrate the action on the screen in a Starcraft 2 game you will never want to listen to HDStarcraft again.
On April 13 2012 13:27 tsuxiit wrote: I'm really tired of the perception that it's OK for casters not to know the ins and outs of the game they are commentating. It's completely ridiculous. It wouldn't be remotely acceptable in any other sport, so why Starcraft? It's actually completely ridiculous and doesn't make any sense. HD should be laughed out of events until he actually knows what he's talking about, and we shouldn't be forgiving. It's embarrassing that someone so out-of-touch with the professional scene is casting a high-profile professional event.
Was he better on Sunday than Friday? Yeah. Does that mean he should have been there at all on Friday? No.
I don't get this... and these kinds of comments. Do people who post like this realize that he is High Masters or is still Grandmasters league? Same for Painuser. When I see a comment like this I feel to myself, can you yourself post to us and show to us that you are more highly skilled than he is, so that we know you have this experience and skill that he does not, instead of complaining blindly.
Are you serious? It has absolutely nothing to do with how skilled I am. If you hear a good, intelligent caster who himself is a pro player and truly knows how to describe and narrate the action on the screen in a Starcraft 2 game you will never want to listen to HDStarcraft again.
Once you read a good, intelligent post, by someone who truely knows what they are talking about, you will never want to read a tsuxiit post again!
On April 13 2012 13:27 tsuxiit wrote: I'm really tired of the perception that it's OK for casters not to know the ins and outs of the game they are commentating. It's completely ridiculous. It wouldn't be remotely acceptable in any other sport, so why Starcraft? It's actually completely ridiculous and doesn't make any sense. HD should be laughed out of events until he actually knows what he's talking about, and we shouldn't be forgiving. It's embarrassing that someone so out-of-touch with the professional scene is casting a high-profile professional event.
Was he better on Sunday than Friday? Yeah. Does that mean he should have been there at all on Friday? No.
I don't get this... and these kinds of comments. Do people who post like this realize that he is High Masters or is still Grandmasters league? Same for Painuser. When I see a comment like this I feel to myself, can you yourself post to us and show to us that you are more highly skilled than he is, so that we know you have this experience and skill that he does not, instead of complaining blindly.
Are you serious? It has absolutely nothing to do with how skilled I am. If you hear a good, intelligent caster who himself is a pro player and truly knows how to describe and narrate the action on the screen in a Starcraft 2 game you will never want to listen to HDStarcraft again.
Once you read a good, intelligent post, by someone who truely knows what they are talking about, you will never want to read a tsuxiit post again!
That's witty. Care to address my argument instead?
On April 13 2012 13:27 tsuxiit wrote: I'm really tired of the perception that it's OK for casters not to know the ins and outs of the game they are commentating. It's completely ridiculous. It wouldn't be remotely acceptable in any other sport, so why Starcraft? It's actually completely ridiculous and doesn't make any sense. HD should be laughed out of events until he actually knows what he's talking about, and we shouldn't be forgiving. It's embarrassing that someone so out-of-touch with the professional scene is casting a high-profile professional event.
Was he better on Sunday than Friday? Yeah. Does that mean he should have been there at all on Friday? No.
I don't get this... and these kinds of comments. Do people who post like this realize that he is High Masters or is still Grandmasters league? Same for Painuser. When I see a comment like this I feel to myself, can you yourself post to us and show to us that you are more highly skilled than he is, so that we know you have this experience and skill that he does not, instead of complaining blindly.
Got proof that HD is 'high master'? There's something seriously wrong with the game if someone without basic knowledge can get to 'high master'.
On April 13 2012 13:27 tsuxiit wrote: I'm really tired of the perception that it's OK for casters not to know the ins and outs of the game they are commentating. It's completely ridiculous. It wouldn't be remotely acceptable in any other sport, so why Starcraft? It's actually completely ridiculous and doesn't make any sense. HD should be laughed out of events until he actually knows what he's talking about, and we shouldn't be forgiving. It's embarrassing that someone so out-of-touch with the professional scene is casting a high-profile professional event.
Was he better on Sunday than Friday? Yeah. Does that mean he should have been there at all on Friday? No.
I don't get this... and these kinds of comments. Do people who post like this realize that he is High Masters or is still Grandmasters league? Same for Painuser. When I see a comment like this I feel to myself, can you yourself post to us and show to us that you are more highly skilled than he is, so that we know you have this experience and skill that he does not, instead of complaining blindly.
Are you serious? It has absolutely nothing to do with how skilled I am. If you hear a good, intelligent caster who himself is a pro player and truly knows how to describe and narrate the action on the screen in a Starcraft 2 game you will never want to listen to HDStarcraft again.
Once you read a good, intelligent post, by someone who truely knows what they are talking about, you will never want to read a tsuxiit post again!
That's witty. Care to address my argument instead?
His points are valid (tsuxiit), even though he takes the argument to the extreme. While I don't think we "should laugh them off stage" I do think it's silly that a tournament hires casters that miss the mark, lack obvious chemistry, and are not likeable. And don't say their not, because it's been a point often repeated that HD and Painuser need to improve on their casting ability.
Now did they go on five minute rant about Swastika's in the middle of map during IPL4? No, they improved after their month long break. They were however incredible unproffessional during the Nestea V Squirtle game where they mentioned during the break, while the players were moving about the stage, what each player was going to do. They mentioned that Nestea was going for mutalisks. I think they mentioned his third. Things that a Korean would pick up on despite the language barrier. It's that kind of neglect and carelessness that I think makes them bad casters. I mean this as respectfully as I can, but I don't think they work that hard at improving their casting. I also think that bad casters should not be rehired when there are dozens of willing replacements. That is just my two cents, and I really hope HD improveslike Husky and TB did.
And for HD being in Masters/Grandmasters - that doesn't matter. If you know how to do a few builds just right, or just have good strong mechanics, than you can get pretty high on the ladder (especially the NA ladder). HD has competed in a few of the MLGs and he hasn't won a single game. Painuser seems to be just as bad.
On April 13 2012 13:27 tsuxiit wrote: I'm really tired of the perception that it's OK for casters not to know the ins and outs of the game they are commentating. It's completely ridiculous. It wouldn't be remotely acceptable in any other sport, so why Starcraft? It's actually completely ridiculous and doesn't make any sense. HD should be laughed out of events until he actually knows what he's talking about, and we shouldn't be forgiving. It's embarrassing that someone so out-of-touch with the professional scene is casting a high-profile professional event.
Was he better on Sunday than Friday? Yeah. Does that mean he should have been there at all on Friday? No.
I don't get this... and these kinds of comments. Do people who post like this realize that he is High Masters or is still Grandmasters league? Same for Painuser. When I see a comment like this I feel to myself, can you yourself post to us and show to us that you are more highly skilled than he is, so that we know you have this experience and skill that he does not, instead of complaining blindly.
Are you serious? It has absolutely nothing to do with how skilled I am. If you hear a good, intelligent caster who himself is a pro player and truly knows how to describe and narrate the action on the screen in a Starcraft 2 game you will never want to listen to HDStarcraft again.
Once you read a good, intelligent post, by someone who truely knows what they are talking about, you will never want to read a tsuxiit post again!
That's witty. Care to address my argument instead?
His points are valid (tsuxiit), even though he takes the argument to the extreme. While I don't think we "should laugh them off stage" I do think it's silly that a tournament hires casters that miss the mark, lack obvious chemistry, and are not likeable. And don't say their not, because it's been a point often repeated that HD and Painuser need to improve on their casting ability.
Now did they go on five minute rant about Swastika's in the middle of map during IPL4? No, they improved after their month long break. They were however incredible unproffessional during the Nestea V Squirtle game where they mentioned during the break, while the players were moving about the stage, what each player was going to do. They mentioned that Nestea was going for mutalisks. I think they mentioned his third. Things that a Korean would pick up on despite the language barrier. It's that kind of neglect and carelessness that I think makes them bad casters. I mean this as respectfully as I can, but I don't think they work that hard at improving their casting. I also think that bad casters should not be rehired when there are dozens of willing replacements. That is just my two cents, and I really hope HD improveslike Husky and TB did.
And for HD being in Masters/Grandmasters - that doesn't matter. If you know how to do a few builds just right, or just have good strong mechanics, than you can get pretty high on the ladder (especially the NA ladder). HD has competed in a few of the MLGs and he hasn't won a single game. Painuser seems to be just as bad.
So I take it you know a few builds and are in high masters or grand masters yourself? Can we have proof of this? It really feels like it's not just criticism at some points. People really like to say things but never will back it up. If you are making that bold statement can you POST your own ranking? I expect you to be higher than Painuser and HD myself.
On April 13 2012 13:27 tsuxiit wrote: I'm really tired of the perception that it's OK for casters not to know the ins and outs of the game they are commentating. It's completely ridiculous. It wouldn't be remotely acceptable in any other sport, so why Starcraft? It's actually completely ridiculous and doesn't make any sense. HD should be laughed out of events until he actually knows what he's talking about, and we shouldn't be forgiving. It's embarrassing that someone so out-of-touch with the professional scene is casting a high-profile professional event.
Was he better on Sunday than Friday? Yeah. Does that mean he should have been there at all on Friday? No.
I don't get this... and these kinds of comments. Do people who post like this realize that he is High Masters or is still Grandmasters league? Same for Painuser. When I see a comment like this I feel to myself, can you yourself post to us and show to us that you are more highly skilled than he is, so that we know you have this experience and skill that he does not, instead of complaining blindly.
Are you serious? It has absolutely nothing to do with how skilled I am. If you hear a good, intelligent caster who himself is a pro player and truly knows how to describe and narrate the action on the screen in a Starcraft 2 game you will never want to listen to HDStarcraft again.
Once you read a good, intelligent post, by someone who truely knows what they are talking about, you will never want to read a tsuxiit post again!
That's witty. Care to address my argument instead?
His points are valid (tsuxiit), even though he takes the argument to the extreme. While I don't think we "should laugh them off stage" I do think it's silly that a tournament hires casters that miss the mark, lack obvious chemistry, and are not likeable. And don't say their not, because it's been a point often repeated that HD and Painuser need to improve on their casting ability.
Now did they go on five minute rant about Swastika's in the middle of map during IPL4? No, they improved after their month long break. They were however incredible unproffessional during the Nestea V Squirtle game where they mentioned during the break, while the players were moving about the stage, what each player was going to do. They mentioned that Nestea was going for mutalisks. I think they mentioned his third. Things that a Korean would pick up on despite the language barrier. It's that kind of neglect and carelessness that I think makes them bad casters. I mean this as respectfully as I can, but I don't think they work that hard at improving their casting. I also think that bad casters should not be rehired when there are dozens of willing replacements. That is just my two cents, and I really hope HD improveslike Husky and TB did.
And for HD being in Masters/Grandmasters - that doesn't matter. If you know how to do a few builds just right, or just have good strong mechanics, than you can get pretty high on the ladder (especially the NA ladder). HD has competed in a few of the MLGs and he hasn't won a single game. Painuser seems to be just as bad.
So I take it you know a few builds and are in high masters or grand masters yourself? Can we have proof of this? It really feels like it's not just criticism at some points. People really like to say things but never will back it up. If you are making that bold statement can you POST your own ranking? I expect you to be higher than Painuser and HD myself.
Do you understand the point of what you just read? The part about how criticism, if it makes sense, is valid regardless of ladder ranking? Or are you being intentionally retarded?
On April 13 2012 13:27 tsuxiit wrote: I'm really tired of the perception that it's OK for casters not to know the ins and outs of the game they are commentating. It's completely ridiculous. It wouldn't be remotely acceptable in any other sport, so why Starcraft? It's actually completely ridiculous and doesn't make any sense. HD should be laughed out of events until he actually knows what he's talking about, and we shouldn't be forgiving. It's embarrassing that someone so out-of-touch with the professional scene is casting a high-profile professional event.
Was he better on Sunday than Friday? Yeah. Does that mean he should have been there at all on Friday? No.
I don't get this... and these kinds of comments. Do people who post like this realize that he is High Masters or is still Grandmasters league? Same for Painuser. When I see a comment like this I feel to myself, can you yourself post to us and show to us that you are more highly skilled than he is, so that we know you have this experience and skill that he does not, instead of complaining blindly.
Are you serious? It has absolutely nothing to do with how skilled I am. If you hear a good, intelligent caster who himself is a pro player and truly knows how to describe and narrate the action on the screen in a Starcraft 2 game you will never want to listen to HDStarcraft again.
Once you read a good, intelligent post, by someone who truely knows what they are talking about, you will never want to read a tsuxiit post again!
That's witty. Care to address my argument instead?
His points are valid (tsuxiit), even though he takes the argument to the extreme. While I don't think we "should laugh them off stage" I do think it's silly that a tournament hires casters that miss the mark, lack obvious chemistry, and are not likeable. And don't say their not, because it's been a point often repeated that HD and Painuser need to improve on their casting ability.
Now did they go on five minute rant about Swastika's in the middle of map during IPL4? No, they improved after their month long break. They were however incredible unproffessional during the Nestea V Squirtle game where they mentioned during the break, while the players were moving about the stage, what each player was going to do. They mentioned that Nestea was going for mutalisks. I think they mentioned his third. Things that a Korean would pick up on despite the language barrier. It's that kind of neglect and carelessness that I think makes them bad casters. I mean this as respectfully as I can, but I don't think they work that hard at improving their casting. I also think that bad casters should not be rehired when there are dozens of willing replacements. That is just my two cents, and I really hope HD improveslike Husky and TB did.
And for HD being in Masters/Grandmasters - that doesn't matter. If you know how to do a few builds just right, or just have good strong mechanics, than you can get pretty high on the ladder (especially the NA ladder). HD has competed in a few of the MLGs and he hasn't won a single game. Painuser seems to be just as bad.
So I take it you know a few builds and are in high masters or grand masters yourself? Can we have proof of this? It really feels like it's not just criticism at some points. People really like to say things but never will back it up. If you are making that bold statement can you POST your own ranking? I expect you to be higher than Painuser and HD myself.
Do you understand the point of what you just read? The part about how criticism, if it makes sense, is valid regardless of ladder ranking? Or are you being intentionally retarded?
I must be retarded. Because if it doesn't matter, you shouldn't have had a hard time stating your ranking.
On April 13 2012 13:27 tsuxiit wrote: I'm really tired of the perception that it's OK for casters not to know the ins and outs of the game they are commentating. It's completely ridiculous. It wouldn't be remotely acceptable in any other sport, so why Starcraft? It's actually completely ridiculous and doesn't make any sense. HD should be laughed out of events until he actually knows what he's talking about, and we shouldn't be forgiving. It's embarrassing that someone so out-of-touch with the professional scene is casting a high-profile professional event.
Was he better on Sunday than Friday? Yeah. Does that mean he should have been there at all on Friday? No.
I don't get this... and these kinds of comments. Do people who post like this realize that he is High Masters or is still Grandmasters league? Same for Painuser. When I see a comment like this I feel to myself, can you yourself post to us and show to us that you are more highly skilled than he is, so that we know you have this experience and skill that he does not, instead of complaining blindly.
Are you serious? It has absolutely nothing to do with how skilled I am. If you hear a good, intelligent caster who himself is a pro player and truly knows how to describe and narrate the action on the screen in a Starcraft 2 game you will never want to listen to HDStarcraft again.
Once you read a good, intelligent post, by someone who truely knows what they are talking about, you will never want to read a tsuxiit post again!
That's witty. Care to address my argument instead?
His points are valid (tsuxiit), even though he takes the argument to the extreme. While I don't think we "should laugh them off stage" I do think it's silly that a tournament hires casters that miss the mark, lack obvious chemistry, and are not likeable. And don't say their not, because it's been a point often repeated that HD and Painuser need to improve on their casting ability.
Now did they go on five minute rant about Swastika's in the middle of map during IPL4? No, they improved after their month long break. They were however incredible unproffessional during the Nestea V Squirtle game where they mentioned during the break, while the players were moving about the stage, what each player was going to do. They mentioned that Nestea was going for mutalisks. I think they mentioned his third. Things that a Korean would pick up on despite the language barrier. It's that kind of neglect and carelessness that I think makes them bad casters. I mean this as respectfully as I can, but I don't think they work that hard at improving their casting. I also think that bad casters should not be rehired when there are dozens of willing replacements. That is just my two cents, and I really hope HD improveslike Husky and TB did.
And for HD being in Masters/Grandmasters - that doesn't matter. If you know how to do a few builds just right, or just have good strong mechanics, than you can get pretty high on the ladder (especially the NA ladder). HD has competed in a few of the MLGs and he hasn't won a single game. Painuser seems to be just as bad.
So I take it you know a few builds and are in high masters or grand masters yourself? Can we have proof of this? It really feels like it's not just criticism at some points. People really like to say things but never will back it up. If you are making that bold statement can you POST your own ranking? I expect you to be higher than Painuser and HD myself.
Do you understand the point of what you just read? The part about how criticism, if it makes sense, is valid regardless of ladder ranking? Or are you being intentionally retarded?
Your criticism doesnt make sense though. I think both of them know the ins and outs of this game, of course they make mistakes with their predictions but who doesnt? Tastosis talks about favorite super nintendo games, position they sleep in or other random crap but they are considered the best casterduo. Honestly I dont even see Tasteless even being remotely interested in the game itself, at least HD has some passion for sc2. This community helds double standards, people like day9 wouldnt be bashed so hard for making a wrong call. Youre right in that the ability to criticize is independent from your ladder rank, but saying they are so out of touch that they are embarassing is an exaggeration and insulting. HD has like a 1000 casts on youtube how could he be out of touch with the proscene ?
The only valid criticism Ive read so far is that HD should calm himself when he gets too excited and both of them should play random on ladder so they get a better feeling for the other races. Those things can be said about a lot of casters. They are both willing to improve and listen to us, although they get so much flak, which to me shows great character strength and willpower. If you guys read this, dont let yourself get taken down, a lot of people enjoy and appreciate your work.
Edit: imo top 3 casters are Artosis, Day9 and dApollo. one step below that are people like khaldor, wolf, adebisi, doa, catspajamas, hd, painuser, husky, wheat , bitter, rotterdam, TB who I enjoy all because of different qualities they have where one is better in one department and worse in another. They all could improve in their own ways but none of them is in any way embarassing or not watchable or whatever hyberbole is used when bashing them, they all contribute to this scene. Why not embrace the diversity we have in casters? Today I heard Frodan at NASL he looks promising too. Cant understand why socalled sc2fans are so negative on people who work hard to bring us content we want to see?
Hey guys, I thought IPL 4 was not terrible, but not the most amazing casting I've ever seen. To be honest, it was just a little below average. I really, really think that HD and PainUser should both increase not only their knowledge of the game match ups and such, but specific maps and strategies employed on the maps. I really enjoy djW's casting with day[9] because they always point out possibilities that are very common on the specific map, as well as the player's tendencies to do certain strategies on maps. I feel that both of you don't really have the same knowledge, and hardly try to study the players or the maps in the pool, and just kind of wing it, hoping that your charm on stage will be enough to pass. One huge example that I specifically remember is Squirtle vs Nestea on Antiga Shipyard. You should've noted that the version of the map was the golden mineral patches, how that could potentially affect the game. When the hatch went down on the gold for nestea as his natural, you should've noted why that was his decision instead of the natural, and how the early pool coincided with that decision. Then you should've explained why he cancelled the hatchery as soon as Nestea saw no ffe, which is starting to not be used on Antiga because how exploitable it is. All these things that even a diamond player just casually glancing at the game were completely ignored, and you passed it off as "Oh.. guess Nestea had a change of heart!". Just by looking into the metagame and researching a little bit more (it is your job after all!), I think that your casting would be greatly improved and much more watchable. Please take these things into consideration. Also, your chemistry between each other needs some more work.. maybe some private practicing with each other, or casting at more even more events together.
P.S. I realize this post sounds really negative, and I'm sorry for that but it's just how I see it. You do have some good traits, such as a well articulated voice and knowledge of the basic matchups themselves, but pro gaming goes much more beyond than just simple ladder builds.
Granted, it only shows last season's leagues and rankings (he has yet to place for this season) and not his career 1v1 rankings, but it does at least show he was in Masters last season albeit not that active (he is 8-3). I know for sure that he did reach high master's when he was more active a couple season's ago.
HD i find you likeable overall as a caster but i think the inconsistent flow of your commentary, poor diction, and lack of insightful comments is holding you back. good luck!
On April 13 2012 13:27 tsuxiit wrote: I'm really tired of the perception that it's OK for casters not to know the ins and outs of the game they are commentating. It's completely ridiculous. It wouldn't be remotely acceptable in any other sport, so why Starcraft? It's actually completely ridiculous and doesn't make any sense. HD should be laughed out of events until he actually knows what he's talking about, and we shouldn't be forgiving. It's embarrassing that someone so out-of-touch with the professional scene is casting a high-profile professional event.
Was he better on Sunday than Friday? Yeah. Does that mean he should have been there at all on Friday? No.
I don't get this... and these kinds of comments. Do people who post like this realize that he is High Masters or is still Grandmasters league? Same for Painuser. When I see a comment like this I feel to myself, can you yourself post to us and show to us that you are more highly skilled than he is, so that we know you have this experience and skill that he does not, instead of complaining blindly.
Are you serious? It has absolutely nothing to do with how skilled I am. If you hear a good, intelligent caster who himself is a pro player and truly knows how to describe and narrate the action on the screen in a Starcraft 2 game you will never want to listen to HDStarcraft again.
Once you read a good, intelligent post, by someone who truely knows what they are talking about, you will never want to read a tsuxiit post again!
That's witty. Care to address my argument instead?
His points are valid (tsuxiit), even though he takes the argument to the extreme. While I don't think we "should laugh them off stage" I do think it's silly that a tournament hires casters that miss the mark, lack obvious chemistry, and are not likeable. And don't say their not, because it's been a point often repeated that HD and Painuser need to improve on their casting ability.
Now did they go on five minute rant about Swastika's in the middle of map during IPL4? No, they improved after their month long break. They were however incredible unproffessional during the Nestea V Squirtle game where they mentioned during the break, while the players were moving about the stage, what each player was going to do. They mentioned that Nestea was going for mutalisks. I think they mentioned his third. Things that a Korean would pick up on despite the language barrier. It's that kind of neglect and carelessness that I think makes them bad casters. I mean this as respectfully as I can, but I don't think they work that hard at improving their casting. I also think that bad casters should not be rehired when there are dozens of willing replacements. That is just my two cents, and I really hope HD improveslike Husky and TB did.
And for HD being in Masters/Grandmasters - that doesn't matter. If you know how to do a few builds just right, or just have good strong mechanics, than you can get pretty high on the ladder (especially the NA ladder). HD has competed in a few of the MLGs and he hasn't won a single game. Painuser seems to be just as bad.
So I take it you know a few builds and are in high masters or grand masters yourself? Can we have proof of this? It really feels like it's not just criticism at some points. People really like to say things but never will back it up. If you are making that bold statement can you POST your own ranking? I expect you to be higher than Painuser and HD myself.
Do you understand the point of what you just read? The part about how criticism, if it makes sense, is valid regardless of ladder ranking? Or are you being intentionally retarded?
I must be retarded. Because if it doesn't matter, you shouldn't have had a hard time stating your ranking.
Just because you're so curious, I'm high masters and have been since season 2. Last season I laddered on an account named 'jerm' that was in a division with someone named ESCOPETA. I finished the season rank 6 with 1.1k points and 150 bonus pool. I've beaten frequently players like goswser and shitty GMs and played decent games with players like IdrA, Nony, et. al. Again, it doesn't matter.
Granted, it only shows last season's leagues and rankings (he has yet to place for this season) and not his career 1v1 rankings, but it does at least show he was in Masters last season albeit not that active (he is 8-3). I know for sure that he did reach high master's when he was more active a couple season's ago.
HD has "peaked" at top4000 world ranking throughout his ladder career. That's pretty much low Master if you were wondering. And that's only his Zerg, he admitted that his game knowledge was even more limited with the two other races.
Correct me if im wrong but Yes on this account he peaked at mid masters but i know that he had to make a new account a couple seasons ago when he switched over to check six team due to there not being anymore name change options for his old account. Anyone have any data for his old account when he was more active on the ladder?
Personally, I enjoy listening to HD and PainUser. They may not be the best analytical casters, but they obviously have a strong passion for the game, which is what I look for most when watching casts. "Good" or "Bad" casting is still completely subjective, and many people do enjoy casters who are just passionate about the game. There will always be room for improvement, but I strongly disagree with the notion that they deserve any kind of flaming or hate with all of the hard work they put into their improvement and the general SC2 community. Just my opinion on the matter.
On April 13 2012 13:27 tsuxiit wrote: I'm really tired of the perception that it's OK for casters not to know the ins and outs of the game they are commentating. It's completely ridiculous. It wouldn't be remotely acceptable in any other sport, so why Starcraft? It's actually completely ridiculous and doesn't make any sense. HD should be laughed out of events until he actually knows what he's talking about, and we shouldn't be forgiving. It's embarrassing that someone so out-of-touch with the professional scene is casting a high-profile professional event.
Was he better on Sunday than Friday? Yeah. Does that mean he should have been there at all on Friday? No.
I don't get this... and these kinds of comments. Do people who post like this realize that he is High Masters or is still Grandmasters league? Same for Painuser. When I see a comment like this I feel to myself, can you yourself post to us and show to us that you are more highly skilled than he is, so that we know you have this experience and skill that he does not, instead of complaining blindly.
Are you serious? It has absolutely nothing to do with how skilled I am. If you hear a good, intelligent caster who himself is a pro player and truly knows how to describe and narrate the action on the screen in a Starcraft 2 game you will never want to listen to HDStarcraft again.
Once you read a good, intelligent post, by someone who truely knows what they are talking about, you will never want to read a tsuxiit post again!
That's witty. Care to address my argument instead?
His points are valid (tsuxiit), even though he takes the argument to the extreme. While I don't think we "should laugh them off stage" I do think it's silly that a tournament hires casters that miss the mark, lack obvious chemistry, and are not likeable. And don't say their not, because it's been a point often repeated that HD and Painuser need to improve on their casting ability.
Now did they go on five minute rant about Swastika's in the middle of map during IPL4? No, they improved after their month long break. They were however incredible unproffessional during the Nestea V Squirtle game where they mentioned during the break, while the players were moving about the stage, what each player was going to do. They mentioned that Nestea was going for mutalisks. I think they mentioned his third. Things that a Korean would pick up on despite the language barrier. It's that kind of neglect and carelessness that I think makes them bad casters. I mean this as respectfully as I can, but I don't think they work that hard at improving their casting. I also think that bad casters should not be rehired when there are dozens of willing replacements. That is just my two cents, and I really hope HD improveslike Husky and TB did.
And for HD being in Masters/Grandmasters - that doesn't matter. If you know how to do a few builds just right, or just have good strong mechanics, than you can get pretty high on the ladder (especially the NA ladder). HD has competed in a few of the MLGs and he hasn't won a single game. Painuser seems to be just as bad.
So I take it you know a few builds and are in high masters or grand masters yourself? Can we have proof of this? It really feels like it's not just criticism at some points. People really like to say things but never will back it up. If you are making that bold statement can you POST your own ranking? I expect you to be higher than Painuser and HD myself.
Do you understand the point of what you just read? The part about how criticism, if it makes sense, is valid regardless of ladder ranking? Or are you being intentionally retarded?
I must be retarded. Because if it doesn't matter, you shouldn't have had a hard time stating your ranking.
Just because you're so curious, I'm high masters and have been since season 2. Last season I laddered on an account named 'jerm' that was in a division with someone named ESCOPETA. I finished the season rank 6 with 1.1k points and 150 bonus pool. I've beaten frequently players like goswser and shitty GMs and played decent games with players like IdrA, Nony, et. al. Again, it doesn't matter.
Sorry but I was unable to find that name on the ranking boards, nothing above diamond. Only A JermainCole who was masters.
On April 14 2012 03:27 Gorkon wrote: Personally, I enjoy listening to HD and PainUser. They may not be the best analytical casters, but they obviously have a strong passion for the game, which is what I look for most when watching casts. "Good" or "Bad" casting is still completely subjective, and many people do enjoy casters who are just passionate about the game. There will always be room for improvement, but I strongly disagree with the notion that they deserve any kind of flaming or hate with all of the hard work they put into their improvement and the general SC2 community. Just my opinion on the matter.
Good and bad casting is not subjective.
When a caster makes a call that is completely, incontrovertibly incorrect, that is bad casting.
That being said, passion for the game is important for a caster and they can always improve, so I agree with you there.
i think HD and PU are good people but bad casters. I just can't listen to games when they are the casters. I will either mute, find a new stream or just turn it off. It's nothing I can point my finger on exactly, we just don't mesh. Again, nothing personally they seem like nice people, I just don't want to hear them cast starcraft matches. ;/
For some things to work on to make your casts bearable:
-cut the phony ethusiasm (PU and HD) or if it's genuine work on a different style to convey it. -get some chemistry. I'm not sure if anyone else feels this way but there are times when i feel you guys don't even like each other that much. -stop talking over each other and arguing about nitpicky things during the cast. The 'friendly' back and forth banter between you guys doesn't work like it does for bitterdam or tastosis, it feels very awkward from the spec view.
On April 14 2012 06:36 crms wrote: i think HD and PU are good people but bad casters. I just can't listen to games when they are the casters. I will either mute, find a new stream or just turn it off. It's nothing I can point my finger on exactly, we just don't mesh. Again, nothing personally they seem like nice people, I just don't want to hear them cast starcraft matches. ;/
Been trying to figure out how to write what I think of them, but I can't say it any better than this.
I don't get this... and these kinds of comments. Do people who post like this realize that he is High Masters or is still Grandmasters league? Same for Painuser. When I see a comment like this I feel to myself, can you yourself post to us and show to us that you are more highly skilled than he is, so that we know you have this experience and skill that he does not, instead of complaining blindly.
Are you serious? It has absolutely nothing to do with how skilled I am. If you hear a good, intelligent caster who himself is a pro player and truly knows how to describe and narrate the action on the screen in a Starcraft 2 game you will never want to listen to HDStarcraft again.
Once you read a good, intelligent post, by someone who truely knows what they are talking about, you will never want to read a tsuxiit post again!
That's witty. Care to address my argument instead?
His points are valid (tsuxiit), even though he takes the argument to the extreme. While I don't think we "should laugh them off stage" I do think it's silly that a tournament hires casters that miss the mark, lack obvious chemistry, and are not likeable. And don't say their not, because it's been a point often repeated that HD and Painuser need to improve on their casting ability.
Now did they go on five minute rant about Swastika's in the middle of map during IPL4? No, they improved after their month long break. They were however incredible unproffessional during the Nestea V Squirtle game where they mentioned during the break, while the players were moving about the stage, what each player was going to do. They mentioned that Nestea was going for mutalisks. I think they mentioned his third. Things that a Korean would pick up on despite the language barrier. It's that kind of neglect and carelessness that I think makes them bad casters. I mean this as respectfully as I can, but I don't think they work that hard at improving their casting. I also think that bad casters should not be rehired when there are dozens of willing replacements. That is just my two cents, and I really hope HD improveslike Husky and TB did.
And for HD being in Masters/Grandmasters - that doesn't matter. If you know how to do a few builds just right, or just have good strong mechanics, than you can get pretty high on the ladder (especially the NA ladder). HD has competed in a few of the MLGs and he hasn't won a single game. Painuser seems to be just as bad.
So I take it you know a few builds and are in high masters or grand masters yourself? Can we have proof of this? It really feels like it's not just criticism at some points. People really like to say things but never will back it up. If you are making that bold statement can you POST your own ranking? I expect you to be higher than Painuser and HD myself.
Do you understand the point of what you just read? The part about how criticism, if it makes sense, is valid regardless of ladder ranking? Or are you being intentionally retarded?
I must be retarded. Because if it doesn't matter, you shouldn't have had a hard time stating your ranking.
Just because you're so curious, I'm high masters and have been since season 2. Last season I laddered on an account named 'jerm' that was in a division with someone named ESCOPETA. I finished the season rank 6 with 1.1k points and 150 bonus pool. I've beaten frequently players like goswser and shitty GMs and played decent games with players like IdrA, Nony, et. al. Again, it doesn't matter.
Sorry but I was unable to find that name on the ranking boards, nothing above diamond. Only A JermainCole who was masters.
Are you serious? It has absolutely nothing to do with how skilled I am. If you hear a good, intelligent caster who himself is a pro player and truly knows how to describe and narrate the action on the screen in a Starcraft 2 game you will never want to listen to HDStarcraft again.
Once you read a good, intelligent post, by someone who truely knows what they are talking about, you will never want to read a tsuxiit post again!
That's witty. Care to address my argument instead?
His points are valid (tsuxiit), even though he takes the argument to the extreme. While I don't think we "should laugh them off stage" I do think it's silly that a tournament hires casters that miss the mark, lack obvious chemistry, and are not likeable. And don't say their not, because it's been a point often repeated that HD and Painuser need to improve on their casting ability.
Now did they go on five minute rant about Swastika's in the middle of map during IPL4? No, they improved after their month long break. They were however incredible unproffessional during the Nestea V Squirtle game where they mentioned during the break, while the players were moving about the stage, what each player was going to do. They mentioned that Nestea was going for mutalisks. I think they mentioned his third. Things that a Korean would pick up on despite the language barrier. It's that kind of neglect and carelessness that I think makes them bad casters. I mean this as respectfully as I can, but I don't think they work that hard at improving their casting. I also think that bad casters should not be rehired when there are dozens of willing replacements. That is just my two cents, and I really hope HD improveslike Husky and TB did.
And for HD being in Masters/Grandmasters - that doesn't matter. If you know how to do a few builds just right, or just have good strong mechanics, than you can get pretty high on the ladder (especially the NA ladder). HD has competed in a few of the MLGs and he hasn't won a single game. Painuser seems to be just as bad.
So I take it you know a few builds and are in high masters or grand masters yourself? Can we have proof of this? It really feels like it's not just criticism at some points. People really like to say things but never will back it up. If you are making that bold statement can you POST your own ranking? I expect you to be higher than Painuser and HD myself.
Do you understand the point of what you just read? The part about how criticism, if it makes sense, is valid regardless of ladder ranking? Or are you being intentionally retarded?
I must be retarded. Because if it doesn't matter, you shouldn't have had a hard time stating your ranking.
Just because you're so curious, I'm high masters and have been since season 2. Last season I laddered on an account named 'jerm' that was in a division with someone named ESCOPETA. I finished the season rank 6 with 1.1k points and 150 bonus pool. I've beaten frequently players like goswser and shitty GMs and played decent games with players like IdrA, Nony, et. al. Again, it doesn't matter.
Sorry but I was unable to find that name on the ranking boards, nothing above diamond. Only A JermainCole who was masters.
Regardless of what rank he is on ladder, its not his playing ability that counts, its his ability to understand the game as he waches it, something he has proven time and time again that he can't do reliably. This is fine, there are many casters who are not fully in tune with the current meta game or who can't fully read a situation, but those casters have learnt what they can do, and what they can't do. The point isn't that HD is bad, its that he either thinks he is better then he actually is or he is knowingly making facts up when he says things which are straight up wrong. I'm only diamond and i've seen quite a few of his casts through various tournaments, and in almost all of them he has said at least one major point which is straight up wrong, this isn't really excusable for a "professional" caster.
Actively saying something which is wrong is probably the worst thing a caster can do, it alienates the high skill audience and misleads the low-skill audience. He needs to recognise his place as a play by play caster and stop trying to call things. If he really wants to be able to make statements like "that was bad" or "this is unusual" then he should practice all his matchups and learn the game to a point where he can make those calls.
I was wondering, whenever I decide to watch IPL, it is always Doa and Cats. Where is painuser and HD? I haven't seen them around in forever it seems. They are still working at IPL right?
On August 02 2012 19:35 JacobShock wrote: I was wondering, whenever I decide to watch IPL, it is always Doa and Cats. Where is painuser and HD? I haven't seen them around in forever it seems. They are still working at IPL right?
No, they are independent now if I remember correctly.
On August 02 2012 19:35 JacobShock wrote: I was wondering, whenever I decide to watch IPL, it is always Doa and Cats. Where is painuser and HD? I haven't seen them around in forever it seems. They are still working at IPL right?
No, they are independent now if I remember correctly.
thank you, I thought it strange that they were suddenly gone.
On April 14 2012 03:27 Gorkon wrote: Personally, I enjoy listening to HD and PainUser. They may not be the best analytical casters, but they obviously have a strong passion for the game, which is what I look for most when watching casts. "Good" or "Bad" casting is still completely subjective, and many people do enjoy casters who are just passionate about the game. There will always be room for improvement, but I strongly disagree with the notion that they deserve any kind of flaming or hate with all of the hard work they put into their improvement and the general SC2 community. Just my opinion on the matter.
Good and bad casting is not subjective.
When a caster makes a call that is completely, incontrovertibly incorrect, that is bad casting.
That being said, passion for the game is important for a caster and they can always improve, so I agree with you there.
I'm sorry for adding to the recently necroed thread (but thanks for the info that both casters are not part of the IPL anymore), I just wanted to point out something.
Analysis being wrong in a caster is objectively bad, i gotta agree. But analyzing isn't all there is to casting. Otherwise everything could be done by a machine, or by tools implemented by blizzard in the replay interface to be honest.
There are human beings too and their behavior, the way they talk and approach the game, as well as the audience are as important as analysis. And in these points there are a lot of subjective factors that only come to taste. It is still (to me at least, and i tend to believe i'm not the only one) entertainment, and this entertainment is enhanced by the way these people will commentate the game.
I won't derail the thread further, but i've always a hard time understanding why some people break down casting to nothing more than analysis. If it was the case, i wouldn't watch games and touraments, i'd check SC2Gears.
On a personal note, i wasn't really a fan of the casting duo: They were really nice funny people, but i personally didn't enjoy their cast much. Both because they were making questionable points in their game vision, and because i think they failed in communicating the game to me in an enjoying and entertaining manner.
what does HD say wrong? beats me i'm in platinum i love his casting. and arent most of people on TL not in masters league? which would make HD vastly superior to all of them? exaaaaaaaaactly. and even the ones IN master, their understanding of the game would be equal to HD. so its funny when they say he doesn't know what he's talking about, because that would imply they don't know what they're talking about. the only ppl who can criticize him are GMs, but there are only 200 GMs in NA. and i always see more than 200 ppl complaining about play by play casters.
edit: and yes i necroed this thread because i haven't heard from painuser/hd in a while, and they are my favorite duo, and i just started listening to inside the game, and was reminded of their awesomeness, and did a search to see if they've been up to anything.
EPT
In the end, we definitely attempted to find the right balance and make our broadcast of IPL3 AC as entertaining, thoughtful, funny, and analytical as possible.
) makes a _really_ good impression on the viewers - I just love being bombed by dApollo with a players ladderstats, winrates vs. certain race, recent strategies etc - It just does alot for the experience. It should be possible with such a relative defined pool of players.
; but I think match-ups where a Toss is involved (particularly PvP, especially since its no longer all 4gate and the matchup-meta is FINALLY evolving) I'd say your quality decreases slightly. Play some Toss (or random) or try to study up on them more if you want to improve as a full-time caster, as opposed to solely keeping your level of playing as high as you can with just zerg. Gretorp I think did this, and while he is obviously no P super-expert I actually have seen him improving his Toss knowledge consideribly since I started watching him at the start of NASL1 where he only really knew T.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cGzPj.png)
) and shouting really loud. 
