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On September 21 2011 02:08 Gwal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 01:57 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote:
So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner. As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill. They didn't. Llewellys (Mill Manager) said on Millenium TV Stream that he was aware of various teams speaking with Stephano. That's all. According to him, there wasn't any offer / counteroffers bidding war, because coL didn't even bother to speak with Millenium staff ... They just spoke with Stephano, and convince him to sign during night time in EU If that's going by the book ...
They spoke with Stephano, who according to them said he wasn't contractually obligated to Millenium, which is pretty fucking weird in the foreign scene at this point. So, when they make an offer to Stephano with 18 days of negotiation, he can pretty much be the one who relays expecting a better offer.
This is actually sort of kinda similar to the EG/TSL situation, only in that situation there was a massive cultural divide whereby most Koreans don't consider it necessary to sign a player that you can not offer money and Puma did not even really talk to his team about it, they were completely unaware that he was considering other options. Milleniums claims they have a big wallet but for some reason they didn't have Stephano on a contract.
Millenium was aware that Stephano was being made offers, and as someone who was technically a free agent and someone who was mulling over his future career, they failed to follow through. Complexity did, and they got a signature from him.
I don't really see any major fuck-ups here.
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On September 21 2011 02:08 Gwal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 01:57 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote:
So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner. As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill. They didn't. Llewellys (Mill Manager) said on Millenium TV Stream that he was aware of various teams speaking with Stephano. That's all. According to him, there wasn't any offer / counteroffers bidding war, because coL didn't even bother to speak with Millenium staff ... They just spoke with Stephano, and convince him to sign during night time in EU If that's going by the book ...
the only thing that's relevant is this: was Stephano under a signed contract with Millenium? coL claims that he said he wasn't. if he truly wasn't, there's no need whatsoever to go through Millenium to acquire Stephano.
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On September 21 2011 02:13 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:08 Gwal wrote:On September 21 2011 01:57 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote:
So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner. As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill. They didn't. Llewellys (Mill Manager) said on Millenium TV Stream that he was aware of various teams speaking with Stephano. That's all. According to him, there wasn't any offer / counteroffers bidding war, because coL didn't even bother to speak with Millenium staff ... They just spoke with Stephano, and convince him to sign during night time in EU If that's going by the book ... the only thing that's relevant is this: was Stephano under a signed contract with Millenium? coL claims that he said he wasn't. if he truly wasn't, there's no need whatsoever to go through Millenium to acquire Stephano.
He is with Millenium, that's not changing. The issue at hand is how much should Stephano or millenium grease the palms of complexity.
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From what I understand Stephano made a choice and later changed it. Most contracts do have a period where either party can back out, and so I guess, either this contract with Col didn't have it, which would somewhat worry me, or it did and the issue people have here is the fact that he resigned with Mil without telling them.
For those arguing that time doesn't play a factor, it definitely does. Even if you spent 18 days, you could have 18 days thinking about something and still make the wrong choice. Considering that studies say driving while tired has the same or worse impact as driving drunk, I think how aware/awake someone is plays a huge part in their ability to make decisions.
The issue I see here is not the 'breaking' of the contract but just the lack of communications between the two/three groups. I won't stop watching Stephano cause he's a good player, and from what I understand/heard during the Sheth charity stream, he only planned on doing SC2 for a year to make money for med school. So if he goes to whoever better suits him to provide him for his goal, all the power to him.
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On September 21 2011 02:08 Gwal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 01:57 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote:
So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner. As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill. They didn't. Llewellys (Mill Manager) said on Millenium TV Stream that he was aware of various teams speaking with Stephano. That's all. According to him, there wasn't any offer / counteroffers bidding war, because coL didn't even bother to speak with Millenium staff ... They just spoke with Stephano, and convince him to sign during night time in EU If that's going by the book ...
Can you explain how Mil performs counteroffers to Stephano if they don't know what the current offer is on the table? How do you counteroffer an offer that you don't know exists?
Why else would Stephano be quoted (with logs to back it up) as saying "Don't worry, I won't change my mind". It just doesn't add up. You can't explain away 18 days of logged back and forth negotiating.
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On September 21 2011 02:05 Snorkle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 01:57 Apom wrote:On September 21 2011 01:53 Snorkle wrote:On September 21 2011 01:51 Apom wrote:On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too. It's simple really. 1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly. 2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement. 3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead. 4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that). 5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision). 6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity. You skipped the part where there was a half month of negotiations, offers and counter offers before Stephano signed with complexity. As stated by complexity and not refuted by Mil While I do not think this is relevant (as he negotiated with half the planet), I have amended my post to reflect this. What you have included is not the fact that is pertinent to the case so I can see why you thin it doesnt matter. There were 18 days of contract negotiations specifically between Mil Col and Stephano. Your first point makes it sound like out of nowhere they suddenly decided to poach Stephano in the middle of the night... which is incorrect. They indeed did not make the decision that suddenly, and I accept that it could somehow change the perception of the issue, which is why I have edited my post to add the existence of previous negotiations.
However, it was denied on the French stream that there were any three-party negotiations. Complexity negotiated with Stephano, and Millenium negotiated with Stephano, but we have different statements on whether Complexity negotiated with Millenium at all. My account only lists events that have been admitted by both parties.
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Yeah sure they explained everything, on a stream, no actual op or post and all in french gz.
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On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
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This whole thing could have been avoided if Stephano had just manned up, made a decision, and owned it. All this flip-floppery is kiddie crap, he had plenty of time to carefully consider his options. This whole shitstorm is his fault imo, the two teams were just fighting to keep or acquire a desirable player, which is to be expected.
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Personally I believe Millenium is handling this very in appropriately and are trying to dodge the blame bullet and use this opportunity to boost their popularity, site activity and stream activity. I don't believe Millenium TV was getting a steady 2k + viewers when ever they streamed. Personally all i smell is shadiness between Millenium and Stephano.
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On September 21 2011 02:17 Apom wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:05 Snorkle wrote:On September 21 2011 01:57 Apom wrote:On September 21 2011 01:53 Snorkle wrote:On September 21 2011 01:51 Apom wrote:On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too. It's simple really. 1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly. 2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement. 3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead. 4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that). 5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision). 6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity. You skipped the part where there was a half month of negotiations, offers and counter offers before Stephano signed with complexity. As stated by complexity and not refuted by Mil While I do not think this is relevant (as he negotiated with half the planet), I have amended my post to reflect this. What you have included is not the fact that is pertinent to the case so I can see why you thin it doesnt matter. There were 18 days of contract negotiations specifically between Mil Col and Stephano. Your first point makes it sound like out of nowhere they suddenly decided to poach Stephano in the middle of the night... which is incorrect. They indeed did not make the decision that suddenly, and I accept that it could somehow change the perception of the issue, which is why I have edited my post to add the existence of previous negotiations. However, it was denied on the French stream that there were any three-party negotiations. Complexity negotiated with Stephano, and Millenium negotiated with Stephano, but we have different statements on whether Complexity negotiated with Millenium at all. My account only lists events that have been admitted by both parties.
I don't Complexity has explicitly stated there were three-way negotiations but there is no reason that there should have been. Complexity and Millenium were both offering Stephano deals over a period of 18 days based on prior statements. They don't need to talk to each other, Stephano is the key person here because there are currently no real agents in Starcraft 2.
On September 21 2011 02:19 daviday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical! No.No.No.No. You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ? They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it. More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
No, we mean over 18 nights. It doesn't matter if Millenium was unaware that Stephano had taken the final offer, if they're truly interested in keeping their player, they have made sure to have Stephano contact them so they could match Complexity's offer. Stephano saw an offer from Complexity, took it, now Millenium comes in, resigns him and says they aren't offering him any more their previous contract.
There were 18 days leading up to the signing, yeah he didn't fucking put one letter at a time and sign it over a period of 2 weeks, but that's not how you consider the negotiations. They were in talks for 18 days, the signing obviously happened in 1, how long that final offer was on the table is irrelevant.
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On September 21 2011 02:15 AzurewinD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:08 Gwal wrote:On September 21 2011 01:57 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote:
So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner. As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill. They didn't. Llewellys (Mill Manager) said on Millenium TV Stream that he was aware of various teams speaking with Stephano. That's all. According to him, there wasn't any offer / counteroffers bidding war, because coL didn't even bother to speak with Millenium staff ... They just spoke with Stephano, and convince him to sign during night time in EU If that's going by the book ... Can you explain how Mil performs counteroffers to Stephano if they don't know what the current offer is on the table? How do you counteroffer an offer that you don't know exists? Why else would Stephano be quoted (with logs to back it up) as saying " Don't worry, I won't change my mind". It just doesn't add up. You can't explain away 18 days of logged back and forth negotiating.
that's the thing !  according to Millenium, there hasn't been any counteroffer bidding war because Mill wasn't aware of any offer ! coL didn't even spoke to them.
Maybe Stephano was trying to bid himself during negociation with coL :D making up offers from Mill ?
The only counteroffer they could made was the day after, reading coL news and learning that during the night their player signed something.
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On September 21 2011 02:19 daviday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical! No.No.No.No. You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ? They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it. More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
Maybe but....
Stephano - " Don't worry I am not changing my mind again"
Followed by execution of a contract. I'm sorry but it doesn't get any more black and white than this. Coupled with the fact that Millenium or Stephano have yet to make a statement on this when Complexity came out with one in well under an hour, it looks really bad.
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this looks like a statement for the sake of a statement with zero new content whatsoever.
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On September 21 2011 02:06 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up.
Why ??
Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day.
i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb.
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On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote:
Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't.
^^
I'm beginning to side more and more with CoL after deciding to not pick a side for awhile.
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On September 21 2011 02:19 daviday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical! No.No.No.No. You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ? They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it. More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
"we" so the french scene is defending mill and strphano or what? this is retarded mill not releasing an official statement with some content and now a bunch of french ppl coming to tl to defend mill? really?
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On September 21 2011 02:23 daviday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:06 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up. i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb.
Totally agree. Finally some sense :D it's so obvious Mill wasn't aware of coL last offer !! otherwise they wouldn't have waited an announcement to make a counteroffer !
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On September 21 2011 02:17 Apom wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:05 Snorkle wrote:On September 21 2011 01:57 Apom wrote:On September 21 2011 01:53 Snorkle wrote:On September 21 2011 01:51 Apom wrote:On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too. It's simple really. 1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly. 2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement. 3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead. 4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that). 5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision). 6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity. You skipped the part where there was a half month of negotiations, offers and counter offers before Stephano signed with complexity. As stated by complexity and not refuted by Mil While I do not think this is relevant (as he negotiated with half the planet), I have amended my post to reflect this. What you have included is not the fact that is pertinent to the case so I can see why you thin it doesnt matter. There were 18 days of contract negotiations specifically between Mil Col and Stephano. Your first point makes it sound like out of nowhere they suddenly decided to poach Stephano in the middle of the night... which is incorrect. They indeed did not make the decision that suddenly, and I accept that it could somehow change the perception of the issue, which is why I have edited my post to add the existence of previous negotiations. However, it was denied on the French stream that there were any three-party negotiations. Complexity negotiated with Stephano, and Millenium negotiated with Stephano, but we have different statements on whether Complexity negotiated with Millenium at all. My account only lists events that have been admitted by both parties.
Complexity has not reason to negotiate with Mill as Stephano was not on contract with them.
The way these things work is: Col offers something to Stephano. Stephano goes to Mil and says hey they offered me more I am going to pick them, then Mil says wait hold on we will offer you more than they did. Then he goes back to Col and says, actually now Mil is offering me this.
Explain to me why it is complexity's responsibility to go and tell Mill, "hey stephano said he is going to sign with us, this is your last chance to make counter offer~~~"
It isn't.
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On September 21 2011 02:23 daviday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:06 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up. Why ?? Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day. i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb.
???
It was Stephano's choice, if he wanted another offer from millenium he should have waited for it. coL had every right to announce Stephano since he signed the contract and released statements like "im looking forward to it" or something.
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EPT
