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On September 21 2011 02:22 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:19 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical! No.No.No.No. You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ? They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it. More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT. Maybe but.... Stephano - " Don't worry I am not changing my mind again" Followed by execution of a contract. I'm sorry but it doesn't get any more black and white than this. Coupled with the fact that Millenium or Stephano have yet to make a statement on this when Complexity came out with one in well under an hour, it looks really bad.
What do you expect ???
If complexity doesnt want those kind of things to happened to them they just need to talk with the team aswell to be sure they will not try to change the players mind , like millenium did.
That comon sens.
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Legally Mil have done nothing wrong it seems, but does that mean they cannot at least apologize and take responsibility? maybe not monetary compensation but something...
I don't see how coL did anything wrong here, it all lays on the fact that Mil and Stephano breached a contract, albeit legally, doesn't mean that it should be done, and sets a standard in eSports that should be met with extreme concern.
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On September 21 2011 02:23 genius_man16 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote:
Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't. ^^ I'm beginning to side more and more with CoL after deciding to not pick a side for awhile.
Thats why I think Mill shot themselves in the foot with this post. Its obvious what side people on the fence would lean to after this, why did they post it anyway?
Maybe they will come back and try again though, that would be pretty neat right about now.
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What does this answer? Not looking good for Millenium. Can you tell us something useful instead of skirting around the bubble?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
It's been a while since i've seen PR done this poorly...
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On September 21 2011 02:24 Pred8oar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:19 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical! No.No.No.No. You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ? They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it. More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT. "we" so the french scene is defending mill and strphano or what? this is retarded mill not releasing an official statement with some content and now a bunch of french ppl coming to tl to defend mill? really?
From what I read on the Millenium webpage, some people are indeed REALLY defending M and saying things like "TL is full of US people bashing on Millenium" etc...
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On September 21 2011 02:26 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:23 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:06 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up. Why ?? Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day. i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb. ??? It was Stephano's choice, if he wanted another offer from millenium he should have waited for it. coL had every right to announce Stephano since he signed the contract and released statements like "im looking forward to it" or something.
Hehe so millenium had to have their player stolen and stfu about it ? Without trying to keep him ?
When the last offer have been done behind their back without the possibility to answer ?
I can really well understand how frustrated Lewellys must have been , when for 18 days there are talk , offer and counter offer , and suddently , no more..
I can only make me think of a crappy move from coL
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On September 21 2011 02:26 daviday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:22 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 02:19 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical! No.No.No.No. You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ? They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it. More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT. Maybe but.... Stephano - " Don't worry I am not changing my mind again" Followed by execution of a contract. I'm sorry but it doesn't get any more black and white than this. Coupled with the fact that Millenium or Stephano have yet to make a statement on this when Complexity came out with one in well under an hour, it looks really bad. What do you expect ??? If complexity doesnt want those kind of things to happened to them they just need to talk with the team aswell to be sure they will not try to change the players mind , like millenium did. That comon sens.
No matter how you put it though. Complexity has a very convincing argument that Stephano for contractual purposes is their player. Obviously Complexity has zero interest in forcing Stephano to do anything. But then what is the point of a contract? Nope, something has to stick eventually.
Lets be serious here, Stephano or Millenium will only get a small slap on the wrists. Dragging this out is very detrimental to Mill and the rest of its players.
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On September 21 2011 02:26 daviday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:22 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 02:19 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical! No.No.No.No. You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ? They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it. More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT. Maybe but.... Stephano - " Don't worry I am not changing my mind again" Followed by execution of a contract. I'm sorry but it doesn't get any more black and white than this. Coupled with the fact that Millenium or Stephano have yet to make a statement on this when Complexity came out with one in well under an hour, it looks really bad. What do you expect ??? If complexity doesnt want those kind of things to happened to them they just need to talk with the team aswell to be sure they will not try to change the players mind , like millenium did. That comon sens.
After the whole TSL incident and everyone knowing to put their players on contract, why the fuck would you need to contact a team that Stephano is not contractually obligated to?
Generally you would contact a player's agent, since they don't have agents, you contact them. Their team can always be more interested in the benefit for the team rather than the player, an agent is hired specifically for the player, in the absence of an agent, you approach the player. The player relays offers and can even say, "Hey talk to Mill about this shit".
It's not "comon sens" to do that.
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On September 21 2011 02:25 Snorkle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:17 Apom wrote:On September 21 2011 02:05 Snorkle wrote:On September 21 2011 01:57 Apom wrote:On September 21 2011 01:53 Snorkle wrote:On September 21 2011 01:51 Apom wrote:On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too. It's simple really. 1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly. 2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement. 3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead. 4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that). 5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision). 6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity. You skipped the part where there was a half month of negotiations, offers and counter offers before Stephano signed with complexity. As stated by complexity and not refuted by Mil While I do not think this is relevant (as he negotiated with half the planet), I have amended my post to reflect this. What you have included is not the fact that is pertinent to the case so I can see why you thin it doesnt matter. There were 18 days of contract negotiations specifically between Mil Col and Stephano. Your first point makes it sound like out of nowhere they suddenly decided to poach Stephano in the middle of the night... which is incorrect. They indeed did not make the decision that suddenly, and I accept that it could somehow change the perception of the issue, which is why I have edited my post to add the existence of previous negotiations. However, it was denied on the French stream that there were any three-party negotiations. Complexity negotiated with Stephano, and Millenium negotiated with Stephano, but we have different statements on whether Complexity negotiated with Millenium at all. My account only lists events that have been admitted by both parties. Complexity has not reason to negotiate with Mill as Stephano was not on contract with them. The way these things work is: Col offers something to Stephano. Stephano goes to Mil and says hey they offered me more I am going to pick them, then Mil says wait hold on we will offer you more than they did. Then he goes back to Col and says, actually now Mil is offering me this. Explain to me why it is complexity's responsibility to go and tell Mill, "hey stephano said he is going to sign with us, this is your last chance to make counter offer~~~" It isn't. It absolutely isn't. Why would you think I said that ? I am not criticizing that it wasn't done, I am simply stating that, according to one party, it wasn't done. Your previous message said that such a negotiation happened (to quote, "negotiations specifically between Mil Col and Stephano"), and that is what I am refusing to present as fact.
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On September 21 2011 02:29 Kennigit wrote:
It's been a while since i've seen PR done this poorly...
When was the last time?
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On September 21 2011 02:19 daviday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical! No.No.No.No. You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ? They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it. More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
*sigh*
Why is Millenium entitled to know anything once the player makes up his mind and signs the contract?
Is it the player's fault for accepting the next offer on the spot without turning to the other team again for the 10th time to ask for a counteroffer?
He's not obligated to do that, he said up front himself that he wasn't currently under contract with Millenium. If he signed the contract at 3AM, he signed the contract at 3AM.
If I'm a free-agent superstar player, and I get a six-figure deal from EG, and I sign the contract, does that mean I'm practicing shady morals because because I didn't talk to Dignitas, FXO, and TL first before signing?
Of course not, I'll sign with whoever I want to sign with, whenever I want to sign because I'm a free agent and it's my choice.
Hell some people in this thread are claiming there wasn't even an 18 day negotiating/counteroffering period to begin with, which is a whole other can of semantic worms.
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I came here for a statement.
Left a little empty inside. Comeon get your stuff together Millennium
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It's all very amateurish. Look at the TL transfers, it's all so clean and professional.
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On September 21 2011 02:30 daviday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:26 Roggay wrote:On September 21 2011 02:23 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:06 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up. Why ?? Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day. i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb. ??? It was Stephano's choice, if he wanted another offer from millenium he should have waited for it. coL had every right to announce Stephano since he signed the contract and released statements like "im looking forward to it" or something. Hehe so millenium had to have their player stolen and stfu about it ? Without trying to keep him ? When the last offer have been done behind their back without the possibility to answer ? I can really well understand how frustrated Lewellys must have been , when for 18 days there are talk , offer and counter offer , and suddently , no more.. I can only make me think of a crappy move from coL
Ofc they were really really frustrated, this goes without saying, but this is the buisness. But it was Stephano's choice to not wait for them to make another offer. coL was not in the wrong.
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On September 21 2011 02:32 Detri wrote:
It's all very amateurish. Look at the TL transfers, it's all so clean and professional.
I dunno if the same people who mod the forums handle the team but I like to think so.
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On September 21 2011 02:02 AzurewinD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 01:25 Ylrahc wrote:On September 21 2011 01:13 AzurewinD wrote:On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:quite the blanket statement you made there. In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation. good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right  Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions. Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only) Show nested quote +As mentioned previously, as of the time of this post both Millenium and Stephano have refused to answer our emails requesting a discussion of this serious matter. Okay. I re-read it carefully. I'm not sure if you're selectively ignoring some critical words in the above sentence, or genuinely missed them, but either way you're wrong. Anything else?
They didn't contact M before Stephano signed his contract. They only did it once public announcements were made about Stephano joining coL then retracting to join M.
It may be okay to do that in the real world to make sure you have the best chance to sign the player under the other team's nose, it doesn't make it less bad mannered.
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On September 21 2011 02:31 AzurewinD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:19 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical! No.No.No.No. You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ? They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it. More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT. *sigh* Why is Millenium entitled to know anything once the player makes up his mind and signs the contract? Is it the player's fault for accepting the next offer on the spot without turning to the other team again for the 10th time to ask for a counteroffer? He's not obligated to do that, he said up front himself that he wasn't currently under contract with Millenium. If he signed the contract at 3AM, he signed the contract at 3AM. If I'm a free-agent superstar player, and I get a six-figure deal from EG, and I sign the contract, does that mean I'm practicing shady morals because because I didn't talk to Dignitas, FXO, and TL first before signing? Of course not, I'll sign with whoever I want to sign with, whenever I want to sign because I'm a free agent and it's my choice. Hell some people in this thread are claiming there wasn't even an 18 day negotiating/counteroffering period to begin with, which is a whole other can of semantic worms.
Why ? because otherwise on team will annouce the player as theirs. And the other will try everything to retains him after.
You can very well see the result by yourself.
coL wanted it , coL got it.
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On September 20 2011 23:17 cactusjack914 wrote:Show nested quote + but from a french PoV, they do things behind closed doors and not publicly. the first thing they responded with was that coL "disoriented" stephano into signing the contract. sounds like closed doors to me.
I agree. This about sums up this whole situation for me. If there's no legal implication for this, I cease to care, other than, in my mind, (which matters to no one on here) Stephano has lost some respect from me and the community. Show me the last time he won a tournament and I'll start to care some more.
People do dumb things, which is a value judgement based on my culture and upbringing. Given some pretty big cultural and legal differences between the US and France, I really don't think there's much of a story here. Sucks for Col, i guess, although it's not like they spent a bunch of money on Stephano in the time it took for him to change his mind... (see damages).
I'm not saying this story shouldn't be published, I just don't see it as a HUGE issue warranting all the speculation and replies from the community... then again, people like drama... <shrug>
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On September 21 2011 01:42 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 01:37 Gooey wrote:What's not so sad about this, is that when you contrast this with what HuK did, it just makes Liquid look that much better. TL gave him the opportunity to make it big, nurtured him and watched him grow into one of the best protoss players in the world. When a life-changing financial offer came his way to take him to the next step in his career, Liquid said "hey man, go for it, no hard feelings, you deserve it". Just to brighten the mood  <3 TL I'm pretty sure TL did everything they could to try and keep HuK, they just don't compare financially to EG. I doubt it was like "yeah you should go HuK!"
But in all fairness the transaction went completely smoothly with almost no animosity between TL and EG, this situation on the other hand is a complete clusterfuck.
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EPT
