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Statement of Millenium on the Stephano situation - Page 14

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Moldwood
Profile Joined April 2011
United States280 Posts
September 20 2011 17:52 GMT
#261
they act as though there was some sort of wall of 'Miscommunication' present, but from what i have read, Stephano was communicating with both sides for an entire week, and couldnt make up his mind........ That is NOT classified as failed communication, more like a failure for stephano to commit to something. Not saying i blame him, i would demand a month + to make such a big decision.... or i woulda figured out something BEFORE my contract ended...........................
"You drone I void ray I win" --oGsMC
HorsemasterK
Profile Joined August 2010
United States606 Posts
September 20 2011 17:52 GMT
#262
The only counterargument from the Mil crowd seems to be 'legally binding contracts are unethical and unnecessary.'

...my head hurts.
AzurewinD
Profile Joined November 2010
United States569 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 17:57:01
September 20 2011 17:53 GMT
#263
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)


Gee I don't know, maybe because he breached a signed contract and it has legal ramifications for all parties involved? And far reaching effects in terms of the importance of contracts in esports? That's kind of important business to reply to immediately, you know, instead of streaming your ladder practice.

Again we're talking about something completely different from the original post you quoted me on.
"...I want more people to be in that state more often, to see things not through the limited and rigid mind or the fearful ego, but through a heart that loves to express and create" - Xiaonan "Glider" Sun
RAW-BERRY
Profile Joined August 2010
United States26 Posts
September 20 2011 17:53 GMT
#264
A really easy way to combat "gossip" on the internet is to provide reason for us to think otherwise. All Millennium has done is say that there might be more than meets the eye, yet provide nothing of substance. Piss poor job in handling this situation.
SwEEt[TearS]
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1575 Posts
September 20 2011 17:55 GMT
#265
I read this on [M]'s site, surprisingly a lot of french guys are bashing Millenium for the lack of decent PR. I mean there's a few LOL WE CANT LET THEM AMERICANS STEAL OUR STAR PLAYER but there's also quite a few good posts:
Vous devez absolument communiquer sur cette affaire comme le ferait n'importe quelle team pro, cette attitude silencieuse est destructrice pour l'image du E sport Français et pire encore, elle expose votre joueur aux attaques violentes des fans de SC2 d'ici ou d'ailleurs.
Personne ne comprend pourquoi Stephano n'a pas respecté le contrat qu'il a signé avec CoL, personne ne comprend pourquoi vous vous improvisez porte parole du E sport français, merci mais on se passerait bien d'histoires de ce genre.
C'est pas Asterix sur Shakuras, vous devez protéger votre joueur d'abord, parce qu'à ce rythme personne ne voudra coller un sponsor sur son maillot.
L'entière communauté de SC2 vous regarde et dans le meilleur des cas se demande vraiment ce qui ne tourne pas rond en France.
Si vous voulez vraiment développer l'E sport en France essayez de faire en sorte qu'on ne passe pas pour des guignols, pour le moment c'est raté.


(crude translation):

You absolutely have to release a statement about this situation like any other pro team would, this silent attitude is destroying the French esports image and even worse exposing your player to violent attacks from SC2 fans from here or elsewhere.
Nobody here understands why Stephano didn’t respect the contract signed with coL, nobody understands why you’re claiming to be the spokesperson for French esports, thanks but we could do without situations like these.
It isn’t Asterix on Shakuras, you got to protect your player first, because at this rhythm nobody will want to stick a sponsor on his shirt.
The entire SC2 community is looking at you and in the best case scenario is asking themselves what the hell is going on in France
If you really want to help esports in France how about you try to make sure we don’t look like imbeciles, at the moment you’re doing it wrong.
#1 arb fan -- Raelcun is Nuclear backwards. Rekrul is Lurker backwards. Grobyc is Cyborg backwards. Eniram is Marine backwards.
Dandy_Moustachu
Profile Joined July 2010
France422 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 17:56:58
September 20 2011 17:55 GMT
#266
Someone can explain me :

The evil team EG offer a contract to Puma who was with TSL but does'nt have a contract and was just bound by some honor contract => Puma accept the contract from EG => Evil Geniuses are soooo evil !!!!

The team Col offer a contract to Stephano who was with Millenium but does'nt have a contract and has just said a few day before that he'll stay with them for the next year => Stephano accept the contract from Col => Millenium strike back => Stephano change his mind and want to stay with Millenium => Millenium are soooo evil !!!!

So what the difference ? The evil team is always the one who was prefered by the player in the end ?
Or it's just that Korean team are a wonderful world of carebear and the french one are ... french (and people aren't accustomed to french who don't surrender quickly ?
Pif Paf Pouf
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 20 2011 17:55 GMT
#267
On September 21 2011 02:30 Medrea wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2011 02:26 daviday wrote:
On September 21 2011 02:22 Medrea wrote:
On September 21 2011 02:19 daviday wrote:
On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.

Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.



You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!


No.No.No.No.

You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?

They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.

More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.


Maybe but....

Stephano - " Don't worry I am not changing my mind again"

Followed by execution of a contract. I'm sorry but it doesn't get any more black and white than this. Coupled with the fact that Millenium or Stephano have yet to make a statement on this when Complexity came out with one in well under an hour, it looks really bad.


What do you expect ???

If complexity doesnt want those kind of things to happened to them they just need to talk with the team aswell to be sure they will not try to change the players mind , like millenium did.
That comon sens.



No matter how you put it though. Complexity has a very convincing argument that Stephano for contractual purposes is their player. Obviously Complexity has zero interest in forcing Stephano to do anything. But then what is the point of a contract? Nope, something has to stick eventually.

Lets be serious here, Stephano or Millenium will only get a small slap on the wrists. Dragging this out is very detrimental to Mill and the rest of its players.

Without delving into the drama (and just to clarify I consider both, all 3 if including Stephano, sides shady) was the contract actually binding ? I have pretty big doubts that col would have much luck going the court route.

This was probably "international" contract (I doubt French entity signed the contract on behalf of col) and just that fact makes it highly unlikely they would be able to actually force the contract even if it satisfied all French system requirements and I highly doubt it actually did considering the state of esports business.
Another thing is we have no idea what the contract between col and Stephano says. That it was signed means nothing, important is the date it becomes binding and the rules/conditions of withdrawing from the contract. Some of them might be defined by French law and do not even have to be mentioned in the contract to be implicitly present. So for people saying col actually came clean, no they did not, they seemingly provided more information, but far from enough to be sure of how all this happened and what is the true current state of the situation. Another thing is Stephano 18, not sure if I should trust liquipedia on this ?
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 20 2011 17:56 GMT
#268
On September 21 2011 02:53 AzurewinD wrote:
Show nested quote +
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)


Gee I don't know, maybe because he breached a signed contract and it has legal ramifications for all parties involved? And far reaching effects in terms of the importance of contracts in esports? That's kind of important business to reply to immediately.

Again we're talking about something completely different from the original post you quoted me on.

There is actually no proof that he breached any contract.
Mordiford
Profile Joined April 2011
4448 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 18:00:06
September 20 2011 17:56 GMT
#269
On September 21 2011 02:50 Ylrahc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2011 02:36 Mordiford wrote:
On September 21 2011 02:33 Ylrahc wrote:
On September 21 2011 02:02 AzurewinD wrote:
On September 21 2011 01:25 Ylrahc wrote:
On September 21 2011 01:13 AzurewinD wrote:
On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:
quite the blanket statement you made there.
In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation.

good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right



Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions.

Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only)


As mentioned previously, as of the time of this post both Millenium and Stephano have refused to answer our emails requesting a discussion of this serious matter.



Okay. I re-read it carefully. I'm not sure if you're selectively ignoring some critical words in the above sentence, or genuinely missed them, but either way you're wrong.

Anything else?

They didn't contact M before Stephano signed his contract. They only did it once public announcements were made about Stephano joining coL then retracting to join M.
It may be okay to do that in the real world to make sure you have the best chance to sign the player under the other team's nose, it doesn't make it less bad mannered.


I thought everyone was already in sync with this, it was only Korea that had to catch up and they did after the EG/TSL incident. If a player isn't signed to your team, he is a free agent and can be approached as such. Teams can have more of an interest in their own success over a player's success, the best representative for a player would be a paid agent, but in the absence of that, the one who has the best interest of the player in mind is generally the player himself.

I'm not going to go Dignitas and ask if I can have Naniwa because Naniwa is no longer on Dignitas, you talk to the player.

Then again, not saying it wasn't legal, just saying it wasn't classy. Why do TL transfers happen to be so smooth ? because they are made with the 3 parties having full knowledge of what's going on. coL deliberately chose to make Stephano sign at 3 AM so M wouldn't be able to build a proper answer.

Show nested quote +

You're talking about something completely different. Please read the posts you quote carefully and follow the line of thought, otherwise you're in strawman territory.


I was speaking to Mil's refusal to reply to coL's emails once Mil announced Stephano's change of heart and breached coL's contract (they were streaming yesterday). I was NOT referring to any correspondence they may or may not have had before that moment.

I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)

Edit : this would be my last post, tired to argue over the same thing over and again because some don't want to listen. As of now, i'm going to enjoy this tournament : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=265710
(what ? a great tournament with most of best EU players organized by M ? heresy, how could this happen, M is such a bad team with no strong reference in EU or in the world !)



Because TL has their players on contract. Think back to EG/Huk/TL, EG had to contact TL so they could buy out the remainder of Huk's contract, I have no doubt that TL was a class act throughout negotiations, but while they're losing out on a player they have the potential to gain on the selling of his contract, if a contract has run out or is about to run out then it's still good to talk to the team but at that point the player should be expected to say, "Hey, I'm getting all these offers, can you guys match them, I want to stay with you".

In the case of a free agent, there's absolutely nothing wrong in either department for me, in going to the player directly because as I said earlier, the team may not be interested in what could benefit the player the most, but what could benefit them the most. This is why agents exist, but in the absence of an agent, you contact the player.

I don't that it wasn't "classy" either, it was pretty standard procedure because of the reason I stated above, if a player isn't on my team and I don't want him to be on yours, I can sabotage the deal. If he's on my team and I fuck up the deal, by the time the contract is up, you can approach him as a free agent and he'll have no interest in re-signing with me.

On September 21 2011 02:55 Dandy_Moustachu wrote:
Someone can explain me :

The evil team EG offer a contract to Puma who was with TSL but does'nt have a contract and was just bound by some honor contract => Puma accept the contract from EG => Evil Geniuses are soooo evil !!!!

The team Col offer a contract to Stephano who was with Millenium but does'nt have a contract and has just said a few day before that he'll stay with them for the next year => Stephano accept the contract from Col => Millenium strike back => Stephano change his mind and want to stay with Millenium => Millenium are soooo evil !!!!

So what the difference ? The evil team is always the one who was prefered by the player in the end ?
Or it's just that Korean team are a wonderful world of carebear and the french one are ... french (and people aren't accustomed to french who don't surrender quickly ?


There was a massive cultural gap whereby Korean teams were known to generally not sign their players, if the incident was repeated now, people would likely be less sympathetic to the "TSL-esque" party because it's been established that you have contract your players, TSL now has all their players contracts.

This is not the case in the foreign scene, it is known that if a player is yours, he is on contract, and if it wasn't in France, then the EG/TSL fiasco should have made it clear to everyone. Sign your players, or they aren't yours.

That is the difference, there is no massive culture gap here, there is a precedent, there is no reason not to have your player contracted. Furthermore, Millenium had knowledge that Stephano was being approached by teams, TSL's coach had no fucking clue that Puma had any intention on leaving or had received any offer.
daviday
Profile Joined September 2011
Hong Kong33 Posts
September 20 2011 17:58 GMT
#270
Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :

1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week.
2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ?
3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.

AzurewinD
Profile Joined November 2010
United States569 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 18:00:35
September 20 2011 17:59 GMT
#271
On September 21 2011 02:56 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2011 02:53 AzurewinD wrote:
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)


Gee I don't know, maybe because he breached a signed contract and it has legal ramifications for all parties involved? And far reaching effects in terms of the importance of contracts in esports? That's kind of important business to reply to immediately.

Again we're talking about something completely different from the original post you quoted me on.

There is actually no proof that he breached any contract.


There isn't? My bad then?

He didn't electronically sign a contract with Complexity and then later break that by changing his mind and signing another contract with Mil?

That's why we're here discussing it after all. The proof hasn't been released but I doubt coL would start this if he didn't actually sign a contract.

If he didn't do that then I'll change my post, but then I'm not sure we'd all be here arguing over it if he didn't.
"...I want more people to be in that state more often, to see things not through the limited and rigid mind or the fearful ego, but through a heart that loves to express and create" - Xiaonan "Glider" Sun
daviday
Profile Joined September 2011
Hong Kong33 Posts
September 20 2011 18:00 GMT
#272
BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
Denar
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
France1633 Posts
September 20 2011 18:00 GMT
#273
The more interesting part to me is that coL's announcement had a quote from Stephano (one line, but still). The "come-back" announcement of Millenium doesn't have one.

And I was hoping that we could hear Stephano's opinion on today's statement, but still no word from him. Makes me wonder if this comeback annoucement was a bit rushed itself...
Vendor
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada115 Posts
September 20 2011 18:00 GMT
#274
On September 21 2011 02:55 Dandy_Moustachu wrote:
Someone can explain me :

The evil team EG offer a contract to Puma who was with TSL but does'nt have a contract and was just bound by some honor contract => Puma accept the contract from EG => Evil Geniuses are soooo evil !!!!

The team Col offer a contract to Stephano who was with Millenium but does'nt have a contract and has just said a few day before that he'll stay with them for the next year => Stephano accept the contract from Col => Millenium strike back => Stephano change his mind and want to stay with Millenium => Millenium are soooo evil !!!!

So what the difference ? The evil team is always the one who was prefered by the player in the end ?
Or it's just that Korean team are a wonderful world of carebear and the french one are ... french (and people aren't accustomed to french who don't surrender quickly ?


EG did it "wrong" in that they didn't talk to TSL about it at all

coL DID talk to Mill as they were bidding back and forth between the two of them.

That is the big reason no communication between the two teams in TSL vs EG and tons with coL and Mill.

If you have doubts you simply don't sign a contract, that is what makes it a contract. Try to get out of your mortgage without tons of problems, it's the same idea.

Mordiford
Profile Joined April 2011
4448 Posts
September 20 2011 18:00 GMT
#275
On September 21 2011 02:59 AzurewinD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2011 02:56 mcc wrote:
On September 21 2011 02:53 AzurewinD wrote:
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)


Gee I don't know, maybe because he breached a signed contract and it has legal ramifications for all parties involved? And far reaching effects in terms of the importance of contracts in esports? That's kind of important business to reply to immediately.

Again we're talking about something completely different from the original post you quoted me on.

There is actually no proof that he breached any contract.


There isn't? My bad then?

He didn't electronically sign a contract with Complexity and then later break that by changing his mind and signing another contract with Mil?

That's why we're here discussing it after all. The proof hasn't been released but I doubt coL would start this if he didn't actually sign a contract.

If he didn't do that then I'll change my post, but then I'm not sure we'd all be here arguing over it if he didn't.


He did sign a contract, and he is technically in breach I believe.
purecarnagge
Profile Joined August 2010
719 Posts
September 20 2011 18:01 GMT
#276
so now that they are reloading the double barrel shotgun they ask for time out and can't we all just get along and grow esportS? I'd sue them for slander, etc etc, and I'd sue the kid for breach of contract assuming the contract was well written which I'm guessing it wasn't.
SwEEt[TearS]
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada1575 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 18:02:17
September 20 2011 18:01 GMT
#277
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote:
Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :

1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week.
2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ?
3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.



1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week
2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision).
3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.

On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote:
BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...

that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
#1 arb fan -- Raelcun is Nuclear backwards. Rekrul is Lurker backwards. Grobyc is Cyborg backwards. Eniram is Marine backwards.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 20 2011 18:02 GMT
#278
On September 21 2011 02:59 AzurewinD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2011 02:56 mcc wrote:
On September 21 2011 02:53 AzurewinD wrote:
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)


Gee I don't know, maybe because he breached a signed contract and it has legal ramifications for all parties involved? And far reaching effects in terms of the importance of contracts in esports? That's kind of important business to reply to immediately.

Again we're talking about something completely different from the original post you quoted me on.

There is actually no proof that he breached any contract.


There isn't? My bad then?

He didn't electronically sign a contract with Complexity and then later break that by changing his mind and signing another contract with Mil?

That's why we're here discussing it after all. The proof hasn't been released but I doubt coL would start this if he didn't actually sign a contract.

If he didn't do that then I'll change my post, but then I'm not sure we'd all be here arguing over it if he didn't.

I did not say anything about signing. He might have as well did that, that does not mean he breached it by withdrawing from it and signing contract with Millenium. To judge that we would have to see the contract and probably even then we would need lawyer's opinion.
Rigou
Profile Joined March 2011
France19 Posts
September 20 2011 18:03 GMT
#279
On September 21 2011 02:50 Vendor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2011 02:44 Rigou wrote:
From my (T)Point of view:

- Col started negotiations with (Z)Stephano without informing Millenium. It's totally fine as he had a "free agent" statute.
- After 18 days, they asked him to sign it or leave it. Again there iS nothing wrong with that; it's (Z)just standard business after a certain time you’ve to make gambles and move on.
- (Z)Stephano signed the contract.
- When Millenium learned it, they made a counter offer, knowing that the contract wouldn't be valid regarding french laws (there iS no (T)Way an US employment contract work in France. Employment regulations are (Z)just totally different), so they made a counter offer that (Z)Stephano accepted.

I feel like a lot of people misunderstand (T)What iS a (e)sport-team. It's a corporation and you have to make it sustainable.
There iS no (Z)Bad or good guys, iS (Z)just that team NEEDS players to obtain sponsors and to make the whole thing work, at the (T)End of the day you have to pay the salaries (#trollmodeon unless you’re (P)Virus #trollmodeoff)
It doesn't mean that they don't care about e-sport, they (Z)just have a work to do. I mean SirScoot (sorry to bring him here) iS a (T)ReaL businessman that will make to keep EG in a leading position, and he still (Z)Love sc2 no question about that.

P.S: sorry for the English, 'tried my best



You got the first part wrong, both sides were in contact with one another and were counter bidding. coL never said sign or else, Stephano signed the contract all by himself therefore signing a legal document concerning his work. Him and Mil then went back on the contract and now could possibly face legal action.

And yes e-sports teams ARE a corporation trying to make money. This is why the whole going back on the contract is such a big deal. I


Yes the first part is controversial because both teams claim different fact: Col that they were in contact and Mill. that they learned with the press release.
But honestly i really do not see why Col. would have talked to Mill. if Stephano wasn't bind by any means to them.


Again i'm making assumptions here as everybody. when you say "they did't" it's actually 'they claimed they didn't" because it's all we have.
daviday
Profile Joined September 2011
Hong Kong33 Posts
September 20 2011 18:04 GMT
#280
On September 21 2011 03:00 Denar wrote:
The more interesting part to me is that coL's announcement had a quote from Stephano (one line, but still). The "come-back" announcement of Millenium doesn't have one.

And I was hoping that we could hear Stephano's opinion on today's statement, but still no word from him. Makes me wonder if this comeback annoucement was a bit rushed itself...



T'es con ou quoi ?

Stephano talked for 30 minutes on millenium TV thats worth all 2 lines annoucement..
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