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On September 21 2011 02:30 daviday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:26 Roggay wrote:On September 21 2011 02:23 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:06 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up. Why ?? Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day. i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb. ??? It was Stephano's choice, if he wanted another offer from millenium he should have waited for it. coL had every right to announce Stephano since he signed the contract and released statements like "im looking forward to it" or something. Hehe so millenium had to have their player stolen and stfu about it ? Without trying to keep him ? When the last offer have been done behind their back without the possibility to answer ? I can really well understand how frustrated Lewellys must have been , when for 18 days there are talk , offer and counter offer , and suddently , no more.. I can only make me think of a crappy move from coL
hehe if Millenium wanted to keep Stephano that bad they would've signed him a long time ago, maybe I don't know, back from his WC3 days? you're full of fallacies bro.
No contract = No bounds. Stephano was a free agent under the [M] tag, nothing more. Stop the tears already.
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On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote:
Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't.
wow snap post of exactly what I was thinking well done.
Yeah its really bad when you say your not legaly doing anything wrong when you have the crazy french foreign contract law to hide behind. doesn't make you a dick at all.
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On September 21 2011 02:31 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:29 Kennigit wrote:
It's been a while since i've seen PR done this poorly... When was the last time?
Probably that vVv academy thing I guess.
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On September 21 2011 02:33 Ylrahc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:02 AzurewinD wrote:On September 21 2011 01:25 Ylrahc wrote:On September 21 2011 01:13 AzurewinD wrote:On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:quite the blanket statement you made there. In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation. good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right  Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions. Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only) As mentioned previously, as of the time of this post both Millenium and Stephano have refused to answer our emails requesting a discussion of this serious matter. Okay. I re-read it carefully. I'm not sure if you're selectively ignoring some critical words in the above sentence, or genuinely missed them, but either way you're wrong. Anything else? They didn't contact M before Stephano signed his contract. They only did it once public announcements were made about Stephano joining coL then retracting to join M. It may be okay to do that in the real world to make sure you have the best chance to sign the player under the other team's nose, it doesn't make it less bad mannered.
I thought everyone was already in sync with this, it was only Korea that had to catch up and they did after the EG/TSL incident. If a player isn't signed to your team, he is a free agent and can be approached as such. Teams can have more of an interest in their own success over a player's success, the best representative for a player would be a paid agent, but in the absence of that, the one who has the best interest of the player in mind is generally the player himself.
I'm not going to go Dignitas and ask if I can have Naniwa because Naniwa is no longer on Dignitas, you talk to the player.
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On September 21 2011 02:31 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:29 Kennigit wrote:
It's been a while since i've seen PR done this poorly... When was the last time?
Probably Puma trade?
or maybe the whole TL not being in that EG tourney?
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Seriously what am I reading? This statement is absolutely nothing and is pointless. Maybe people will care once Mill releases a statement with actual substance.
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On September 21 2011 02:33 Ylrahc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:02 AzurewinD wrote:On September 21 2011 01:25 Ylrahc wrote:On September 21 2011 01:13 AzurewinD wrote:On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:quite the blanket statement you made there. In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation. good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions. Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only) As mentioned previously, as of the time of this post both Millenium and Stephano have refused to answer our emails requesting a discussion of this serious matter. Okay. I re-read it carefully. I'm not sure if you're selectively ignoring some critical words in the above sentence, or genuinely missed them, but either way you're wrong. Anything else? They didn't contact M before Stephano signed his contract. They only did it once public announcements were made about Stephano joining coL then retracting to join M. It may be okay to do that in the real world to make sure you have the best chance to sign the player under the other team's nose, it doesn't make it less bad mannered.
You're talking about something completely different. Please read the posts you quote carefully and follow the line of thought, otherwise you're in strawman territory.
I was speaking to Mil's refusal to reply to coL's emails once Mil announced Stephano's change of heart and breached coL's contract (they were streaming yesterday). I was NOT referring to any correspondence they may or may not have had before that moment.
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It would be very funny if Stephano were to quit playing SC2 next year when he goes to school.
All that fuss for nothing.
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On September 21 2011 02:31 AzurewinD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:19 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical! No.No.No.No. You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ? They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it. More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT. *sigh* Why is Millenium entitled to know anything once the player makes up his mind and signs the contract? Is it the player's fault for accepting the next offer on the spot without turning to the other team again for the 10th time to ask for a counteroffer? He's not obligated to do that, he said up front himself that he wasn't currently under contract with Millenium. If he signed the contract at 3AM, he signed the contract at 3AM. If I'm a free-agent superstar player, and I get a six-figure deal from EG, and I sign the contract, does that mean I'm practicing shady morals because because I didn't talk to Dignitas, FXO, and TL first before signing? Of course not, I'll sign with whoever I want to sign with, whenever I want to sign because I'm a free agent and it's my choice. Hell some people in this thread are claiming there wasn't even an 18 day negotiating/counteroffering period to begin with, which is a whole other can of semantic worms.
What on earth are you talking about..
Stephano is PART of team millenium even without contract... he isnt teamless.
Contract or not contract its obvious millenium HAVE to know , to be able to react in time..
On one hand you are asking for more professionalism but on the other hand only people with contract get to attack like professional ?
I can really see coL think like that , but thats not comming from people who want a more professional esport. That comming from Buisness Sharks at BEST.
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On September 21 2011 02:02 skYfiVe wrote:
Why does almost every french poster on Mill's side have less than 15 posts? Do they only post on Millenium's posts because of some sort of national pride issue or what... They haven't told the public anything yet, so whatever they are telling the French isn't really helping.
No i think they don't post here because french poster on Mill's side are teens and they're not fluent in english.
BTW they're not fluent in french too.
Everybody with a minimum of good sense is able to understand that training in Korea with MVP team is better for any player than training in France with a league of legend team.
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On September 21 2011 02:30 daviday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:26 Roggay wrote:On September 21 2011 02:23 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:06 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up. Why ?? Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day. i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb. ??? It was Stephano's choice, if he wanted another offer from millenium he should have waited for it. coL had every right to announce Stephano since he signed the contract and released statements like "im looking forward to it" or something. Hehe so millenium had to have their player stolen and stfu about it ? Without trying to keep him ? When the last offer have been done behind their back without the possibility to answer ? I can really well understand how frustrated Lewellys must have been , when for 18 days there are talk , offer and counter offer , and suddently , no more.. I can only make me think of a crappy move from coL
Although i hope the best for Stephano were ever he ends up... The statements available on this site make me believe Stephano was not signed with Millenium, so how can a player be stolen? Secondly, Millenium might have been unaware of the final offer, but it's Stephano's decision to sign with coL instead of waiting until the next day. Complexity can't be blamed for it. I understand Lewellys frustration, but if it's true that Stephano didn't have a contract with Millenium it's non of their business how coL engages Stephano.
It would be really helpful if their was a fully translated VoD of last night Millenium streams, because at this point we don't have a good account from Milleniums or Stephano's side as non-french speaker.
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From my point of view:
- Col started negotiations with Stephano without informing Millenium. It's totally fine as he had a "free agent" statute.
- After 18 days, they asked him to sign it or leave it. Again there nothing wrong with that; it's standard business after a certain time you’ve to make gambles and move on.
- Stephano signed the contract.
- When Millenium learned it, they made a counter offer, knowing that the contract wouldn't be valid regarding french laws (there no Way an US employment contract work in France. Employment regulations are just totally different), so they made a counter offer that Stephano accepted.
I feel like a lot of people misunderstand what a (e)sport-team. It's a corporation and you have to make it sustainable.
There no or good guys, team NEEDS players to obtain sponsors and to make the whole thing work, at the end of the day you have to pay the salaries (#trollmodeon unless you’re Virus #trollmodeoff)
It doesn't mean that they don't care about e-sport, they just have a work to do. I mean SirScoot (sorry to bring him here) a businessman that will make to keep EG in a leading position, and he still love sc2 no question about that.
P.S: sorry for the English, 'tried my best
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I for one am really dissappointed. Stephano was about t have a huge oppourtunity with complexity, a company and team I can trust to do whats best for their players. Also with the rumor of Naniwa going to join to? It was going to be amazing for all of esports. The korean training of Naniwa and skill of Stephano could of trickled down into such an amazing team making the foreign scene a bit more competitive. Now we get statements like this that tell us nothing. Millenium, you really messed up, you have probably lost many supporters and many possible future supporters. Release another statement telling the facts because if the facts are on your side you might have a chance of not being a bad memory for esports. Im am just so dissappointed. Sorry if my post is super negative.
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On September 21 2011 02:42 daviday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:31 AzurewinD wrote:On September 21 2011 02:19 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical! No.No.No.No. You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ? They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it. More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT. *sigh* Why is Millenium entitled to know anything once the player makes up his mind and signs the contract? Is it the player's fault for accepting the next offer on the spot without turning to the other team again for the 10th time to ask for a counteroffer? He's not obligated to do that, he said up front himself that he wasn't currently under contract with Millenium. If he signed the contract at 3AM, he signed the contract at 3AM. If I'm a free-agent superstar player, and I get a six-figure deal from EG, and I sign the contract, does that mean I'm practicing shady morals because because I didn't talk to Dignitas, FXO, and TL first before signing? Of course not, I'll sign with whoever I want to sign with, whenever I want to sign because I'm a free agent and it's my choice. Hell some people in this thread are claiming there wasn't even an 18 day negotiating/counteroffering period to begin with, which is a whole other can of semantic worms. What on earth are you talking about.. Stephano is PART of team millenium even without contract... he isnt teamless.
... -_-'
No one can competently argue with this logic anymore.
CoL asks Stephano up front if he is contracted with Mil in any way, Stephano says no. Yet, he isn't teamless?
We stated our interest in retaining his services and he stated that he was in no way contracted to Millenium and was interested in joining compLexity.
Alright man, I guess you win. Good game.
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On September 21 2011 02:43 Sighstorm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:30 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:26 Roggay wrote:On September 21 2011 02:23 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:06 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up. Why ?? Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day. i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb. ??? It was Stephano's choice, if he wanted another offer from millenium he should have waited for it. coL had every right to announce Stephano since he signed the contract and released statements like "im looking forward to it" or something. Hehe so millenium had to have their player stolen and stfu about it ? Without trying to keep him ? When the last offer have been done behind their back without the possibility to answer ? I can really well understand how frustrated Lewellys must have been , when for 18 days there are talk , offer and counter offer , and suddently , no more.. I can only make me think of a crappy move from coL Although i hope the best for Stephano were ever he ends up... The statements available on this site make me believe Stephano was not signed with Millenium, so how can a player be stolen? Secondly, Millenium might have been unaware of the final offer, but it's Stephano's decision to sign with coL instead of waiting until the next day. Complexity can't be blamed for it. I understand Lewellys frustration, but if it's true that Stephano didn't have a contract with Millenium it's non of their business how coL engages Stephano. It would be really helpful if their was a fully translated VoD of last night Millenium streams, because at this point we don't have a good account from Milleniums or Stephano's side as non-french speaker.
Yes. TBH that would be VERY GOOD.
Because most of the report from those video that have been written by french on TL are full of lie / miss interpretation , and doesnt account for what he said .
TBH even on french Esports website his saying are far from accurate.
For example he NEVER said he wont answer to coL mails.
He just said that at the present time , he was to busy doing the cast + answering question + organising the King of the Hill with hasuobs to answer the email. and that he would answer depending on the content of that email. Or let his supperior in the team answer.
He later said that obviously if it was offending and stuff he would reply the adress of the nearest court.. but thats understandable.
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On September 21 2011 02:42 daviday wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:31 AzurewinD wrote:On September 21 2011 02:19 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 02:03 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote:
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical! No.No.No.No. You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ? They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it. More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT. *sigh* Why is Millenium entitled to know anything once the player makes up his mind and signs the contract? Is it the player's fault for accepting the next offer on the spot without turning to the other team again for the 10th time to ask for a counteroffer? He's not obligated to do that, he said up front himself that he wasn't currently under contract with Millenium. If he signed the contract at 3AM, he signed the contract at 3AM. If I'm a free-agent superstar player, and I get a six-figure deal from EG, and I sign the contract, does that mean I'm practicing shady morals because because I didn't talk to Dignitas, FXO, and TL first before signing? Of course not, I'll sign with whoever I want to sign with, whenever I want to sign because I'm a free agent and it's my choice. Hell some people in this thread are claiming there wasn't even an 18 day negotiating/counteroffering period to begin with, which is a whole other can of semantic worms. What on earth are you talking about.. Stephano is PART of team millenium even without contract... he isnt teamless. Contract or not contract its obvious millenium HAVE to know , to be able to react in time.. On one hand you are asking for more professionalism but on the other hand only people with contract get to attack like professional ? I can really see coL think like that , but thats not comming from people who want a more professional esport. That comming from Buisness Sharks at BEST.
This was unanimously sorted out and agreed upon back in the EG/TSL fiasco, if your player isn't contracted to you, he isn't yours. TSL subsequently put all their players on a contract.
If he's not on contract, he is a free agent who may be playing for you, but there is no requirement to talk to you about his contract. When a player is contracted, you talk to the team and they have a possible incentive to selling you the remaining portion of the contract, in the absence of a contract they really get nothing out of letting a player go unless they want that player to succeed and it isn't that far fetched to expect a team to be biased towards themselves or more interested in their own success.
This is generally where agents come in, because their interest is the player, but in the absence of an agent the person who is most interested in the player's success in the player himself, so you contact the player. It's not fucking rocket science.
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On September 21 2011 02:37 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:31 Medrea wrote:On September 21 2011 02:29 Kennigit wrote:
It's been a while since i've seen PR done this poorly... When was the last time? Probably Puma trade? or maybe the whole TL not being in that EG tourney?
I doubt it was something from the past ~3 months if he says "a while" :p
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On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote:
Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't.
I think most of us will feel like this. If you;re going to release a statement, one would presume that it would have some(atleast a little) detail instead of just saying that it's really complicating and any internet gossip is lies.
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On September 21 2011 02:44 Rigou wrote:From my  Point of view: - Col started negotiations with  Stephano without informing Millenium. It's totally fine as he had a "free agent" statute. - After 18 days, they asked him to sign it or leave it. Again there iS nothing wrong with that; it's just standard business after a certain time you’ve to make gambles and move on. - Stephano signed the contract. - When Millenium learned it, they made a counter offer, knowing that the contract wouldn't be valid regarding french laws (there iS no Way an US employment contract work in France. Employment regulations are just totally different), so they made a counter offer that Stephano accepted. I feel like a lot of people misunderstand What iS a (e)sport-team. It's a corporation and you have to make it sustainable. There iS no Bad or good guys, iS just that team NEEDS players to obtain sponsors and to make the whole thing work, at the End of the day you have to pay the salaries (#trollmodeon unless you’re  Virus #trollmodeoff) It doesn't mean that they don't care about e-sport, they just have a work to do. I mean SirScoot (sorry to bring him here) iS a ReaL businessman that will make to keep EG in a leading position, and he still Love sc2 no question about that. P.S: sorry for the English, 'tried my best
You got the first part wrong, both sides were in contact with one another and were counter bidding. coL never said sign or else, Stephano signed the contract all by himself therefore signing a legal document concerning his work. Him and Mil then went back on the contract and now could possibly face legal action.
And yes e-sports teams ARE a corporation trying to make money. This is why the whole going back on the contract is such a big deal. I
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On September 21 2011 02:36 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 02:33 Ylrahc wrote:On September 21 2011 02:02 AzurewinD wrote:On September 21 2011 01:25 Ylrahc wrote:On September 21 2011 01:13 AzurewinD wrote:On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote:quite the blanket statement you made there. In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation. good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions. Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only) As mentioned previously, as of the time of this post both Millenium and Stephano have refused to answer our emails requesting a discussion of this serious matter. Okay. I re-read it carefully. I'm not sure if you're selectively ignoring some critical words in the above sentence, or genuinely missed them, but either way you're wrong. Anything else? They didn't contact M before Stephano signed his contract. They only did it once public announcements were made about Stephano joining coL then retracting to join M. It may be okay to do that in the real world to make sure you have the best chance to sign the player under the other team's nose, it doesn't make it less bad mannered. I thought everyone was already in sync with this, it was only Korea that had to catch up and they did after the EG/TSL incident. If a player isn't signed to your team, he is a free agent and can be approached as such. Teams can have more of an interest in their own success over a player's success, the best representative for a player would be a paid agent, but in the absence of that, the one who has the best interest of the player in mind is generally the player himself. I'm not going to go Dignitas and ask if I can have Naniwa because Naniwa is no longer on Dignitas, you talk to the player.
Then again, not saying it wasn't legal, just saying it wasn't classy. Why do TL transfers happen to be so smooth ? because they are made with the 3 parties having full knowledge of what's going on. coL deliberately chose to make Stephano sign at 3 AM so M wouldn't be able to build a proper answer.
You're talking about something completely different. Please read the posts you quote carefully and follow the line of thought, otherwise you're in strawman territory.
I was speaking to Mil's refusal to reply to coL's emails once Mil announced Stephano's change of heart and breached coL's contract (they were streaming yesterday). I was NOT referring to any correspondence they may or may not have had before that moment.
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)
Edit : this would be my last post, tired to argue over the same thing over and again because some don't want to listen. As of now, i'm going to enjoy this tournament : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=265710
(what ? a great tournament with most of best EU players organized by M ? heresy, how could this happen, M is such a bad team with no strong reference in EU or in the world !)
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EPT
