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On November 08 2014 01:07 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 00:55 ETisME wrote:On November 08 2014 00:39 TokO wrote:On November 08 2014 00:30 Superbanana wrote:
Since we are talking about design changes, LotV is the last chance to make those happen. For zerg, re-designing infestors vipers and swarmhosts would be great. Nydus network too, its costly and easy to deny, but if its not denied its OP. So its not used a lot since its costly and a coin-flip most of the time, but its also damn strong and frustrating to deal with. I think Zergs approach the Nydus network as too much of a 'critical' element, so that, if it is used at all, it better have a critical impact. But I think there are other applications for it, like mobility, creating flanks against contains, simply have a more 'utility' purpose than being a fragile critical component in an all-in. I don't think that the pricing is unfair or that it's too weak per se. But for most 'utility' purposes, it is getting crowded out by the mobility that creep spread gives, almost for free. With creep spread, planning and pre-engagement unit positioning, you don't really need more mobility that your army doesn't already have. I think for moving large armies, it's also partially crowded out by overlord drop, which again, doesn't seem that popular. but which contain that occurs around lair timing, let you prepare a nydus to bust the contain and won't break with just having more units? not to mention the speed of unloading speedlings are just horrible. so that leaves roaches / hydra for the good unit for nydus and it is already very gas heavy unit comp Double Nydus = double unload speed... For the mech theming: Where does Mech atm work? Overgroth because you can take 5 bases with ez. Deadwing is damn big, so you can take 4 base at least very easy, but zerg can mine alot more during the typical "i am mech and do nothing but maybe harass time" On Merry, Catallena and in my opinion King S. Station mech gets wrecked. Foxtrot is awfull at all, Zergs wount like it for other things then roach bane and terran wount go mech at all because bio is strong vs zerg there. Nimbus? Can work but why? This map is terrans place to make babys and playing bio there will not only make the game faster but also more predictable because of the map.
You can make more nydus worms for faster unloading, but no matter what zerglings still suffer. They really are the clumsiest units in the game to unload and they take twice as much cargo space as a marine. Why can't Blizzard address it for LotV? They seem to care so little for improving these sort of minor things that can nevertheless have a positive cumulative effect.
My personal recommendation that I have promoted once or twice: double zergling unload speed.
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On November 08 2014 00:55 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2014 23:59 Big J wrote:On November 07 2014 22:00 Sapphire.lux wrote:On November 07 2014 21:55 Big J wrote:
Thats exactly ehat zerg does. Chip away at mech with swarmhosts and vipers and mutalisks. Camping with super long range units for 40 mins is not what i had in mind and it breaks what is IMO the key factor in making fun games: contrasting styles. Zergs harass with mutalisks. What else do you want? Drops are worse than mutalisks. Harassing by ground on 1-2 paths into 3-5 base clusters cannot be done. On maps that are more open than that Mech isnt viable because Zerg running rampant is too much too handle. Mech vs Zerg currently only works on maps where it very easy to be immune. As long as such maps exist, Zerg needs a siege weapon. But Mech (and protoss) is currently only balanced for such maps. I could be silly and say that as long as Zerg/ Protoss have a siege weapon that out sieges the Tank AND have the mobility advantage, mech will forever be forced in super turtle mode. So i think there are 2 options. 1)Do what Blizz tried to do in HOTS. Dance around the problem and just create a mechanical marauder. Still Factory play right? ... 2)You create the anti-mech play of Protoss/Zerg to deal with the weaknesses of mech. You focus on mobility, ease of reinforcement, ease of expand, etc (buff nidus, buff drop play, concentrate on the Viper, etc) You promote tactical play. Right now the thinking is all wrong IMO and it's no surprise that in spite of numerous buffs, mech is still mostly shit.
But Zerg is mobile as hell already. Zerg expands all over the place to punish Mechs immobility. Zerg regularily builds 20-30mutalisks worth of harassment flying from base to base. I'm all with you that strategies should rely on on weaknesses of the opponents play.
But how SC2 works, a player can acquire 3bases and make it highly costinefficient for the opponent to harass them or attack into them. And the same player can eventually just take a 4th or 5th base. I can't see how I can get by without a siege unit when my opponent can afford a 200supply army and 30+ turrets on 3-4bases. And that is already under the premise that the Terran player has to greatly branch out into Ravens to counter SHs. If it wasn't for preparing for SHs, a Terran could dedicate even more money into turtling up.
What you propose sounds alot like it is made under the premise that the Terran attacks in the midgame and spreads thin. My question is: Why would he do that if there is nothing that has a good chance of beating his army in the lategame?
What you propose cannot work well without changing the economy and maps of the game. Until a mobile player can greatly outmine an immobile player, the mobile player needs the option to eventually acquire an army that can work near costefficient, like pulling stuff into locusts or artillery.
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On November 08 2014 01:13 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 00:55 ETisME wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 08 2014 00:39 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 00:30 Superbanana wrote:
Since we are talking about design changes, LotV is the last chance to make those happen. For zerg, re-designing infestors vipers and swarmhosts would be great. Nydus network too, its costly and easy to deny, but if its not denied its OP. So its not used a lot since its costly and a coin-flip most of the time, but its also damn strong and frustrating to deal with. I think Zergs approach the Nydus network as too much of a 'critical' element, so that, if it is used at all, it better have a critical impact. But I think there are other applications for it, like mobility, creating flanks against contains, simply have a more 'utility' purpose than being a fragile critical component in an all-in. I don't think that the pricing is unfair or that it's too weak per se. But for most 'utility' purposes, it is getting crowded out by the mobility that creep spread gives, almost for free. With creep spread, planning and pre-engagement unit positioning, you don't really need more mobility that your army doesn't already have. I think for moving large armies, it's also partially crowded out by overlord drop, which again, doesn't seem that popular. but which contain that occurs around lair timing, let you prepare a nydus to bust the contain and won't break with just having more units? not to mention the speed of unloading speedlings are just horrible. so that leaves roaches / hydra for the good unit for nydus and it is already very gas heavy unit comp Exactly, that's the problem. There are too few situations where you could even conceive Nydus even be useful. Could this change if you took away some of the bonuses of the creep and buffed zerg units more? I think re-balancing is better, as making the Nydus worm cheaper or buffing reinforcement speed can create some nasty situations by itself.
Transports/teleports/etc... Are only useful if you don't have fast units (stim doesn't count)
It's stupid to do long drops since it's usually faster to for them to run there. It's stupid to do roach drops when a pack of mutas will have the same gas cost and will do it more efficiently (faster too, and can more easily escape)
Before you talk about drops/Nydus, you have to first have something to drop/Nydus.
Reaver Drops were cool because reavers were balanced to be slow and you could get around that weakness through micro (drops)
Lurker drops were good because lurkers are immobile, while drops made them mobile.
Bio drops are good because lings/goons/stalkers are all faster than marines, but drop ships makes them mobile enough to be able to compete.
Add slow units then drops will be worth it.
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If you want to change SH, zerg really need a lot of buff/change to deal with lategame.
Zerg really need something able to tank the deathball, even ultra can't prevent Zerg army from being decimating by deathball before Zerg units are in range.
Zerg need also an anti-ht, cause the only counter of HT is locust. Storm/feedback is utterly OP vs non SH Zerg army.
Aslo the mass air is an issue for Zerg, cause void has no cost effective counter when integrated in a deathball. Raven too.
The range tech pathway is pretty bad too. Zerg constantly need to evolve their units but after roach/hydra you have nothing (except SH), when you go roach/hydra sadly you army become fastly useless because roach take too much supply for their lategame strenght. Could be nice to transform roach into something else (and not luker which will be quite useless for Zerg on SC2 cause they have too short range, and no tanking power).
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SH gets changed. Carrier gets changed, BC gets changed. Corrupter changes, Banshee changes, Tank changes, FF breaker unit by zerg. Infestor changes. Melee baracks unit for terran. Small tank with high range for terran. Big ass exploder for robo protoss. Lurker for Zerg.
Follow Infezas tweets and you will complain about balance even before lotv is officially annouced
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your Country52797 Posts
On November 08 2014 03:50 Clonester wrote:
SH gets changed. Carrier gets changed, BC gets changed. Corrupter changes, Banshee changes, Tank changes, FF breaker unit by zerg. Infestor changes. Melee baracks unit for terran. Small tank with high range for terran. Big ass exploder for robo protoss. Lurker for Zerg.
Follow Infezas tweets and you will complain about balance even before lotv is officially annouced
Balance against which race? 
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http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2llldh/new_units_discussion_thread_legacy_of_the_void/
If these things are true. Then some things are ridicilously crap. Like the new protoss unit.
But lets be positive:
I see some things here that goes around. Tanks will be viable versus zerg and most likely vs protoss with the medivac pickup.
The swarmhost change which we still need alot more info on, but right now, it seems it might be able to deal with medivac drops and other flying units so this might encourage this unit instead of the core unit muta.
The blink on BC sounds pretty cool actually.
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On November 08 2014 03:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 08 2014 01:13 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 00:55 ETisME wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 08 2014 00:39 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 00:30 Superbanana wrote:
Since we are talking about design changes, LotV is the last chance to make those happen. For zerg, re-designing infestors vipers and swarmhosts would be great. Nydus network too, its costly and easy to deny, but if its not denied its OP. So its not used a lot since its costly and a coin-flip most of the time, but its also damn strong and frustrating to deal with. I think Zergs approach the Nydus network as too much of a 'critical' element, so that, if it is used at all, it better have a critical impact. But I think there are other applications for it, like mobility, creating flanks against contains, simply have a more 'utility' purpose than being a fragile critical component in an all-in. I don't think that the pricing is unfair or that it's too weak per se. But for most 'utility' purposes, it is getting crowded out by the mobility that creep spread gives, almost for free. With creep spread, planning and pre-engagement unit positioning, you don't really need more mobility that your army doesn't already have. I think for moving large armies, it's also partially crowded out by overlord drop, which again, doesn't seem that popular. but which contain that occurs around lair timing, let you prepare a nydus to bust the contain and won't break with just having more units? not to mention the speed of unloading speedlings are just horrible. so that leaves roaches / hydra for the good unit for nydus and it is already very gas heavy unit comp Exactly, that's the problem. There are too few situations where you could even conceive Nydus even be useful. Could this change if you took away some of the bonuses of the creep and buffed zerg units more? I think re-balancing is better, as making the Nydus worm cheaper or buffing reinforcement speed can create some nasty situations by itself. Transports/teleports/etc... Are only useful if you don't have fast units (stim doesn't count) It's stupid to do long drops since it's usually faster to for them to run there. It's stupid to do roach drops when a pack of mutas will have the same gas cost and will do it more efficiently (faster too, and can more easily escape) Before you talk about drops/Nydus, you have to first have something to drop/Nydus. Reaver Drops were cool because reavers were balanced to be slow and you could get around that weakness through micro (drops) Lurker drops were good because lurkers are immobile, while drops made them mobile. Bio drops are good because lings/goons/stalkers are all faster than marines, but drop ships makes them mobile enough to be able to compete. Add slow units then drops will be worth it.
You could drop banelings. I think there used to be a lot of situations where Protoss wouldn't have enough stuff to defend inside his base, so a speedling drop would be really useful. Of course, that has been partially alleviated with nexus cannon, but I think there might still be scope for it. Usually, the defensive advantage of Protoss is due to having to fight one front only, while multipronged attacks + drops can be very effective, especially if damage is done to the economy. I'm not sure about ZvT, though.
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Considering all this Mech discussion, I really think that countering it by mobile units and similar stuff is the way to go.
Hell, It was the case in WoL, could be done in LotV as well. For this purpose (and the fact that it really is an unfun unit atm) SH needs to be tweaked a lot. I personally love the idea of it being not a locust but a scourge launcher.
With a very short lifespawn or low damage, it can add lots of things in the Zerg army.
First it's an anti-air which is not wrecked by PDD.
Second any air army will need low damage high firing rate units to counter them (Phoenix/LOTS of carriers or BC/etc...) No more mass Voids/ravens and stufff. Could even be a really micro intensive unit.
Then it's another mid-game tech in TvZ, as it could be really useful to counter mass drop plays. In the same way, mass SH would be utterly terrible.
Last and not least it'll bring back the scourge.
EDIT: LURKERS ARE BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK !!!!!
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On November 08 2014 03:57 Foxxan wrote:http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/2llldh/new_units_discussion_thread_legacy_of_the_void/If these things are true. Then some things are ridicilously crap. Like the new protoss unit. But lets be positive: I see some things here that goes around. Tanks will be viable versus zerg and most likely vs protoss with the medivac pickup. The swarmhost change which we still need alot more info on, but right now, it seems it might be able to deal with medivac drops and other flying units so this might encourage this unit instead of the core unit muta. The blink on BC sounds pretty cool actually.
Surprised you aren't freaking out over lurkers being back.
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Don't think we shoulf discuss new units in this thread.
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On November 08 2014 04:12 MTAC wrote:
Considering all this Mech discussion, I really think that countering it by mobile units and similar stuff is the way to go.
Hell, It was the case in WoL, could be done in LotV as well. For this purpose (and the fact that it really is an unfun unit atm) SH needs to be tweaked a lot. I personally love the idea of it being not a locust but a scourge launcher.
With a very short lifespawn or low damage, it can add lots of things in the Zerg army.
First it's an anti-air which is not wrecked by PDD.
Second any air army will need low damage high firing rate units to counter them (Phoenix/LOTS of carriers or BC/etc...) No more mass Voids/ravens and stufff. Could even be a really micro intensive unit.
Then it's another mid-game tech in TvZ, as it could be really useful to counter mass drop plays. In the same way, mass SH would be utterly terrible.
Last and not least it'll bring back the scourge.
EDIT: LURKERS ARE BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK !!!!!
If lotV develops like they want, you have your PDD-freed AA and you got it atm against weaker air:
Fungle + the new roach bombers: They have shown how these roach bombers killed fungled units ez
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On November 08 2014 08:22 Grumbels wrote:
Don't think we shoulf discuss new units in this thread.
For obvious reasons, noone knows what will happen right now.
Completely ridiculous to even attempt to make predictions
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I hope all of you just listened carefully when MC said TvZ is OP as fuck and Terran needs to be nerfed.
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On November 08 2014 08:36 Dwayn wrote:
I hope all of you just listened carefully when MC said TvZ is OP as fuck and Terran needs to be nerfed.
Yea most pros saying who's gonna win WCS were:
"This terran, if not this other terran, who might lose to this terran."
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Just thinking it would be nice to have a pro level "random only league". This league would always be perfectly balanced, because all advantages or disadvantages as well as the risk of random selection would be equally spread. Games would probably be less predictable and become a bit more crazy, while still maintaining the professional skill level. And whoever dominates this kind of pro league would be the true master of sc imo.
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On November 08 2014 08:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 08:22 Grumbels wrote:
Don't think we shoulf discuss new units in this thread. For obvious reasons, noone knows what will happen right now. Completely ridiculous to even attempt to make predictions
Exactly. Not really a sensible discussion from a balance point of view at this stage.
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On November 08 2014 08:39 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2014 08:36 Dwayn wrote:
I hope all of you just listened carefully when MC said TvZ is OP as fuck and Terran needs to be nerfed. Yea most pros saying who's gonna win WCS were: "This terran, if not this other terran, who might lose to this terran."
Terran so good they lost the WCS finals. 1-4
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The more I play melee and brood war, the more I abhor the patch system that sc 2 goes through. Just get the game fun to play, reasonably balanced*, and allow enough skill to differentiate play styles and players. Then let it figure it self out.
I feel the community has done itself a disservice by encouraging a new patch constantly to balance things out. So many amazing, amazing moments have been missed out on because of it, moments which end up changing the way the game is played, or just breakthroughs in general for players.
*By this I mean balanced to the point where player a can beat player b if the player is skilled enough. I don't give a shit about a theoretical overpowered race, so long as the others have enough tools which allow them to express there skill.
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This thread is now moot until Lotv.
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EPT
