Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1200

On November 07 2014 06:59 JCoto wrote:


Well, it's a proposition, trying to add some logic to the game. It's not needed. IMAO, the only needed change (of this ones) in the game design is Abduct being slightly less effective against massive units.

In the case of fungal, IMAO I would trade a bit of its efficiency aaagainst massive (lategame) units for better projectile speed. I think that it already works pretty okay in lategame situations, as it is far more easy to land against slow units.

On November 07 2014 07:03 RaFox17 wrote:

In what way abduct is a balance problem? I really don´t think there is a situation where it is imbalanced.

On November 07 2014 06:59 JCoto wrote:


Well, it's a proposition, trying to add some logic to the game. It's not needed. IMAO, the only needed change (of this ones) in the game design is Abduct being slightly less effective against massive units.

In the case of fungal, IMAO I would trade a bit of its efficiency aaagainst massive (lategame) units for better projectile speed. I think that it already works pretty okay in lategame situations, as it is far more easy to land against slow units.


However, it is true that at the moment there's no need to nerf Zerg at all. I agree completely. Some little buff regarding fungal could be even beneficial. I was thinking about design and logic, in the exceptional case that the game was more balanced. I also think that SH should be reworked to be a little bit faster and more dynamic to raid positions instead of being a turtle unit. Decreasing the mutation time of the Greater Spire and giving +1 armor to Broodlords are also good ideas, as they are not very viable and easy to kill.

On November 07 2014 07:29 DinoMight wrote:
Actually, in terms of e-sports, consistency is wonderful. I like it that abduct does the same exact thing to any unit. It makes the game consistent and easy to understand/watch.

The only time things are different is when there is a balance concern. Immortals are meant to counter armored units and that's why they do more damage to armored. But abduct.. you can use it on whatever you like It's just a tool in a toolbox and there's no need for it to function differently on massive units. Currently I think abduct works very well.

It can be used the same way that Spawn Broodling was in SC1 to take out important targets left unprotected from air.

I think Neural is interesting in the same way. It adds a little bit of complexity to the game where your opponent has to watch out and not get his key units neuraled. However, I've already said I think the range on it is too short. Currently the Infestor casts Neural and dies 2 seconds later.

It would be sick to see Neural used vs Thors in ZvT to protect Muta and prevent the Thor from tanking Baneling hits.

On November 07 2014 07:39 SC2Toastie wrote:

I think bio is too fast and mobile to allow that to happen. You'd have to buff Neural to imba levels for that, because a Marauder hitsquad 4-5 shots Infestors and if you cant have 2 Marauders reach the infestors there's something wrong

On November 07 2014 06:59 JCoto wrote:


Well, it's a proposition, trying to add some logic to the game. It's not needed. IMAO, the only needed change (of this ones) in the game design is Abduct being slightly less effective against massive units.

In the case of fungal, IMAO I would trade a bit of its efficiency aaagainst massive (lategame) units for better projectile speed. I think that it already works pretty okay in lategame situations, as it is far more easy to land against slow units.


However, it is true that at the moment there's no need to nerf Zerg at all. I agree completely. Some little buff regarding fungal could be even beneficial. I was thinking about design and logic, in the exceptional case that the game was more balanced. I also think that SH should be reworked to be a little bit faster and more dynamic to raid positions instead of being a turtle unit. Decreasing the mutation time of the Greater Spire and giving +1 armor to Broodlords are also good ideas, as they are not very viable and easy to kill.

On November 07 2014 10:28 Morbidius wrote:
I think its time for the dreaded infestor buff, neural is a very interesting skill and should be usable again.

On November 07 2014 10:39 JCoto wrote:


Maybe it's time to definetely redesign bio a bit, so it doesn't kill everything. Little nerfs, Reworked ghost to be available earlier, more usable mech.

On November 07 2014 10:55 Morbidius wrote:

Ghosts need a use against zerg and terran, yes. But i don't want to see more mech in TvZ with the units we have, all it creates is an incredibly boring style with only turtling and timing attacks as options. Not to mention the blatant brokeness of ravens in lategame TvZ would be on the spotlight again.

On November 07 2014 19:00 Enigmasc wrote:

the problem with ghosts is that there either too strong vs massive units like in the past, or while they can be usefull ( vs infestors etc) realistically a bio player doesnt have the time to kite+ split+snipe infestors and ghosts are bloody expensive :L

prettymuch this tbh, mech in its current form is exceedingly boring and just forces SH games.
honeslty mech needs tweaking from the ground up in lotv to reward something other than turtle into mass raven

On November 07 2014 19:13 Meavis wrote:


eh, from my experience mech is far from the problem but the counters to mech, who in their sane mind would run a mech army in to waves of free units.

On November 07 2014 19:13 Meavis wrote:


eh, from my experience mech is far from the problem but the counters to mech, who in their sane mind would run a mech army in to waves of free units.

On November 07 2014 19:39 Meavis wrote:
I think you're heavily underestimating the cost of an army like that, roach/muta is very capable of harrasing mech, especialy when you include drop tech and roach burrow movement, and creates for far more interesting games than swarmhosts do.

On November 07 2014 19:41 Big J wrote:


Who in their sane mind would run zerg units that actually cost something and have
melee
melee
5range
4range
6range
3range
6range
melee

into

13range
10range
10range(spell)
9range
9range(spell),
7range
6-8range defenses and PDDs?

Of course people will use their own 9.5range artillery (which happens to produce units when attacking), their 9-10range spells and mainly their 5000range free unit spam. Else you take way too much free damage before even closing in - which is the same exact principle as with Locusts/SHs: you don't run the Mech army in, because you will take way too much free damage before reaching the damage source.

How does bio Terran deal with Mech? With 13range siege tanks that push forward after you cleaned up some enemy tanks. With 9range vikings that allow your tanks to siege forward and make way for BCs, bio drops and Ravens. Eventually even with 12range nukes. Even the basic bio units have 5-6range which makes them much better in particular against Thors.

On November 07 2014 19:44 RaFox17 wrote:

Roach/muta style can work but if terran max you will die to their push. Drop and burrow can work as a surprise but terran turtling terran is pretty difficult to surprise with slow drops or burrow roaches. After thor and WM buffs mutas are too easily countered by terran. Going roach means that you have attack before terran gets going and do crippling damage and even then you usually tradition to SH to kill the terran. I think you are overestimating the power of zerg.

On November 07 2014 19:48 Meavis wrote:


as it is right now bio is very capable of dealing with mech without having to resort to their own tanks, as bio demolishes any tank army that is unsieged, and stim gets you on top of them fast, aside from that there's stimvacs forcing constant pressure, and the possibility of basetrades.

aside from that, your comparison is a bit flawed, yes you take some hits but after that you're actually at the mech army, on the other end a mech army never reaches swarmhosts that constantly re position and spew wave after wave of locust.


so would you agree that zerg lategame is the issue rather than resorting to swarmhosts? perhaps vipers could use a buff in HP so they don't immediately die to vikings before picking something of? or even cost so it would be more of a fair trade to run in vipers to grab stuff.

On November 07 2014 20:08 sage_francis wrote:
Mech is NOT focring SH. Please stop spreading that nonsense.
As Meavis said, there is plenty of ways to deal with mech before terran reach 15+ ravens. SH is just the most easy/lazy/boring way to deal with it.
You are thinking in terms of running a 200 zerg army in a frontal assault. It can work sometimes if terran make mistakes but most of the time it will not. You have to play smartly, force terran to make mistakes, spread his army, make diversion tactics, etc... Zergs have the tools to achieve that goal (nydus, vipers, BL, burrow, drop tech, tech switching, etc), but the most important of all is your brain.

To the guy who talks about how bio is dealing with mech in TvT. Excuse me but you are wrong. You don't have to make tanks to beat mech (btw, if you make tanks its not bio anymore ....). Actually its even worse than pure bio, or bio + air. Stop thinking with numbers and stats and play the game more !

Your answsers show that you dont play the game enough and only relying on stats and what you see in tournaments. But it is not enough. You have to play the game a lot and gain experience from it to fully understand how the match ups are working.