On November 07 2014 20:08 sage_francis wrote: Mech is NOT focring SH. Please stop spreading that nonsense. As Meavis said, there is plenty of ways to deal with mech before terran reach 15+ ravens. SH is just the most easy/lazy/boring way to deal with it. You are thinking in terms of running a 200 zerg army in a frontal assault. It can work sometimes if terran make mistakes but most of the time it will not. You have to play smartly, force terran to make mistakes, spread his army, make diversion tactics, etc... Zergs have the tools to achieve that goal (nydus, vipers, BL, burrow, drop tech, tech switching, etc), but the most important of all is your brain.
To the guy who talks about how bio is dealing with mech in TvT. Excuse me but you are wrong. You don't have to make tanks to beat mech (btw, if you make tanks its not bio anymore ....). Actually its even worse than pure bio, or bio + air. Stop thinking with numbers and stats and play the game more !
Your answsers show that you dont play the game enough and only relying on stats and what you see in tournaments. But it is not enough. You have to play the game a lot and gain experience from it to fully understand how the match ups are working.
fighting vs mech is much more of a brain game than it is a macro game yes, and I think most zergs are struggling with that, they often clash in the wrong composition and then deem mech to strong.
but on the other hand, mech is very, very supply effective, and zerg may be in need of a better direct answer to a 200/200 ball rolling towards their face, obviously that should also not be overly effective or mech will be as dead as it is now vs swarmhost/muta.
On November 07 2014 10:28 Morbidius wrote: I think its time for the dreaded infestor buff, neural is a very interesting skill and should be usable again.
Maybe it's time to definetely redesign bio a bit, so it doesn't kill everything. Little nerfs, Reworked ghost to be available earlier, more usable mech.
Ghosts need a use against zerg and terran, yes. But i don't want to see more mech in TvZ with the units we have, all it creates is an incredibly boring style with only turtling and timing attacks as options. Not to mention the blatant brokeness of ravens in lategame TvZ would be on the spotlight again.
the problem with ghosts is that there either too strong vs massive units like in the past, or while they can be usefull ( vs infestors etc) realistically a bio player doesnt have the time to kite+ split+snipe infestors and ghosts are bloody expensive :L
prettymuch this tbh, mech in its current form is exceedingly boring and just forces SH games. honeslty mech needs tweaking from the ground up in lotv to reward something other than turtle into mass raven
eh, from my experience mech is far from the problem but the counters to mech, who in their sane mind would run a mech army in to waves of free units.
Who in their sane mind would run zerg units that actually cost something and have melee melee 5range 4range 6range 3range 6range melee
into
13range 10range 10range(spell) 9range 9range(spell), 7range 6-8range defenses and PDDs?
Of course people will use their own 9.5range artillery (which happens to produce units when attacking), their 9-10range spells and mainly their 5000range free unit spam. Else you take way too much free damage before even closing in - which is the same exact principle as with Locusts/SHs: you don't run the Mech army in, because you will take way too much free damage before reaching the damage source.
How does bio Terran deal with Mech? With 13range siege tanks that push forward after you cleaned up some enemy tanks. With 9range vikings that allow your tanks to siege forward and make way for BCs, bio drops and Ravens. Eventually even with 12range nukes. Even the basic bio units have 5-6range which makes them much better in particular against Thors.
as it is right now bio is very capable of dealing with mech without having to resort to their own tanks, as bio demolishes any tank army that is unsieged, and stim gets you on top of them fast, aside from that there's stimvacs forcing constant pressure, and the possibility of basetrades.
aside from that, your comparison is a bit flawed, yes you take some hits but after that you're actually at the mech army, on the other end a mech army never reaches swarmhosts that constantly re position and spew wave after wave of locust.
On November 07 2014 19:44 RaFox17 wrote:
On November 07 2014 19:39 Meavis wrote: I think you're heavily underestimating the cost of an army like that, roach/muta is very capable of harrasing mech, especialy when you include drop tech and roach burrow movement, and creates for far more interesting games than swarmhosts do.
Roach/muta style can work but if terran max you will die to their push. Drop and burrow can work as a surprise but terran turtling terran is pretty difficult to surprise with slow drops or burrow roaches. After thor and WM buffs mutas are too easily countered by terran. Going roach means that you have attack before terran gets going and do crippling damage and even then you usually tradition to SH to kill the terran. I think you are overestimating the power of zerg.
so would you agree that zerg lategame is the issue rather than resorting to swarmhosts? perhaps vipers could use a buff in HP so they don't immediately die to vikings before picking something of? or even cost so it would be more of a fair trade to run in vipers to grab stuff.
I think the problem is that when terran gets to 4-5 bases and mass ravens the game is over. Without huge mistake terran will win as SH will do no damage and corruptors can´t kill raven/viking clouds because of PDD. I think that PDD is the biggest problem in ZvsMech.
Kind of this, though I think the Ravenball isnt unbeatable and Terran really needs at least 5bases imo to trade with Sh/Viper based play. But yes, at the core this is the main difference. A mech player in TvT is forced to unsiege and attack and can get punished much easier with bio armies because of that. Why is he forced? Because else he has to face an Air Transition mirror battle but his opponent has more bases. In TvZ Terran is superconfident sitting tight and taking his bases later. In sich a scenario the Zerg cannot build raven/BC/Viking of his own. What he can do is SH/Viper+better economy.
On November 07 2014 10:28 Morbidius wrote: I think its time for the dreaded infestor buff, neural is a very interesting skill and should be usable again.
Maybe it's time to definetely redesign bio a bit, so it doesn't kill everything. Little nerfs, Reworked ghost to be available earlier, more usable mech.
Ghosts need a use against zerg and terran, yes. But i don't want to see more mech in TvZ with the units we have, all it creates is an incredibly boring style with only turtling and timing attacks as options. Not to mention the blatant brokeness of ravens in lategame TvZ would be on the spotlight again.
the problem with ghosts is that there either too strong vs massive units like in the past, or while they can be usefull ( vs infestors etc) realistically a bio player doesnt have the time to kite+ split+snipe infestors and ghosts are bloody expensive :L
prettymuch this tbh, mech in its current form is exceedingly boring and just forces SH games. honeslty mech needs tweaking from the ground up in lotv to reward something other than turtle into mass raven
eh, from my experience mech is far from the problem but the counters to mech, who in their sane mind would run a mech army in to waves of free units.
Who in their sane mind would run zerg units that actually cost something and have melee melee 5range 4range 6range 3range 6range melee
into
13range 10range 10range(spell) 9range 9range(spell), 7range 6-8range defenses and PDDs?
Of course people will use their own 9.5range artillery (which happens to produce units when attacking), their 9-10range spells and mainly their 5000range free unit spam. Else you take way too much free damage before even closing in - which is the same exact principle as with Locusts/SHs: you don't run the Mech army in, because you will take way too much free damage before reaching the damage source.
How does bio Terran deal with Mech? With 13range siege tanks that push forward after you cleaned up some enemy tanks. With 9range vikings that allow your tanks to siege forward and make way for BCs, bio drops and Ravens. Eventually even with 12range nukes. Even the basic bio units have 5-6range which makes them much better in particular against Thors.
Mobility is the key, if you want x vs mech fun games. Use bigger range to beat big range and you get terrible games.
On November 07 2014 10:28 Morbidius wrote: I think its time for the dreaded infestor buff, neural is a very interesting skill and should be usable again.
Maybe it's time to definetely redesign bio a bit, so it doesn't kill everything. Little nerfs, Reworked ghost to be available earlier, more usable mech.
Ghosts need a use against zerg and terran, yes. But i don't want to see more mech in TvZ with the units we have, all it creates is an incredibly boring style with only turtling and timing attacks as options. Not to mention the blatant brokeness of ravens in lategame TvZ would be on the spotlight again.
the problem with ghosts is that there either too strong vs massive units like in the past, or while they can be usefull ( vs infestors etc) realistically a bio player doesnt have the time to kite+ split+snipe infestors and ghosts are bloody expensive :L
prettymuch this tbh, mech in its current form is exceedingly boring and just forces SH games. honeslty mech needs tweaking from the ground up in lotv to reward something other than turtle into mass raven
eh, from my experience mech is far from the problem but the counters to mech, who in their sane mind would run a mech army in to waves of free units.
Who in their sane mind would run zerg units that actually cost something and have melee melee 5range 4range 6range 3range 6range melee
into
13range 10range 10range(spell) 9range 9range(spell), 7range 6-8range defenses and PDDs?
Of course people will use their own 9.5range artillery (which happens to produce units when attacking), their 9-10range spells and mainly their 5000range free unit spam. Else you take way too much free damage before even closing in - which is the same exact principle as with Locusts/SHs: you don't run the Mech army in, because you will take way too much free damage before reaching the damage source.
How does bio Terran deal with Mech? With 13range siege tanks that push forward after you cleaned up some enemy tanks. With 9range vikings that allow your tanks to siege forward and make way for BCs, bio drops and Ravens. Eventually even with 12range nukes. Even the basic bio units have 5-6range which makes them much better in particular against Thors.
Mobility is the key, if you want x vs mech fun games. Use bigger range to beat big range and you get terrible games.
I'm gonna leave this here because it is very relevant.
On November 07 2014 10:28 Morbidius wrote: I think its time for the dreaded infestor buff, neural is a very interesting skill and should be usable again.
Maybe it's time to definetely redesign bio a bit, so it doesn't kill everything. Little nerfs, Reworked ghost to be available earlier, more usable mech.
Ghosts need a use against zerg and terran, yes. But i don't want to see more mech in TvZ with the units we have, all it creates is an incredibly boring style with only turtling and timing attacks as options. Not to mention the blatant brokeness of ravens in lategame TvZ would be on the spotlight again.
the problem with ghosts is that there either too strong vs massive units like in the past, or while they can be usefull ( vs infestors etc) realistically a bio player doesnt have the time to kite+ split+snipe infestors and ghosts are bloody expensive :L
prettymuch this tbh, mech in its current form is exceedingly boring and just forces SH games. honeslty mech needs tweaking from the ground up in lotv to reward something other than turtle into mass raven
eh, from my experience mech is far from the problem but the counters to mech, who in their sane mind would run a mech army in to waves of free units.
Who in their sane mind would run zerg units that actually cost something and have melee melee 5range 4range 6range 3range 6range melee
into
13range 10range 10range(spell) 9range 9range(spell), 7range 6-8range defenses and PDDs?
Of course people will use their own 9.5range artillery (which happens to produce units when attacking), their 9-10range spells and mainly their 5000range free unit spam. Else you take way too much free damage before even closing in - which is the same exact principle as with Locusts/SHs: you don't run the Mech army in, because you will take way too much free damage before reaching the damage source.
How does bio Terran deal with Mech? With 13range siege tanks that push forward after you cleaned up some enemy tanks. With 9range vikings that allow your tanks to siege forward and make way for BCs, bio drops and Ravens. Eventually even with 12range nukes. Even the basic bio units have 5-6range which makes them much better in particular against Thors.
Mobility is the key, if you want x vs mech fun games. Use bigger range to beat big range and you get terrible games.
I think you missunderstood me. I meant superior mobility is and should be the key in beating mech to create contrasting styles that are fun to view, and that you don't need the simplistic hard counters and EVEN BIGGER range type of thinking.
"Else [b]you take way too much free damage before even closing in" This part in particular is bad. That's what mech is FFS. You are not supposed to a1 in to ready made positions; you attack where he is not, when he is not ready, you chip away at his army and overwhelm with superior eco, etc. Who needs to play a tactical game though when you can just mass a counter...
hold on, what are we discussing now actually? I kinda lost track, we are still discussing swarmhosts being the issue with boring mech games right? not the balance of it I hope, because from pro level it is very clear swarmhost/muta is performing more than fine against mech.
On November 07 2014 21:55 Big J wrote: Thats exactly ehat zerg does. Chip away at mech with swarmhosts and vipers and mutalisks.
Camping with super long range units for 40 mins is not what i had in mind and it breaks what is IMO the key factor in making fun games: contrasting styles.
On November 07 2014 21:58 Meavis wrote: hold on, what are we discussing now actually? I kinda lost track, we are still discussing swarmhosts being the issue with boring mech games right? not the balance of it I hope, because from pro level it is very clear swarmhost/muta is performing more than fine against mech.
Yep. Units like SHs (and Tempests IMO) are a terrible way to deal with mech (or any more defensive minded play) from a design perspective.
On November 07 2014 21:58 Meavis wrote: hold on, what are we discussing now actually? I kinda lost track, we are still discussing swarmhosts being the issue with boring mech games right? not the balance of it I hope, because from pro level it is very clear swarmhost/muta is performing more than fine against mech.
Purely from a design perspective (+ the assumption that SH won't be available in LotV! :o ). And of course that once the mass Raven style comes into play, the Zerg just... dies. That's just horrible design and reminds me of Infestor+Broodlord (yes, I know it's different, because Infestor Broodlord came into play WAY earlier than mass Ravens. I just don't like design decisions like "Oh well... you should have killed him earlier!")
And if SH are really gonna be cut out, Zerg is in desperate need of another answer to mech,
On November 07 2014 21:55 Big J wrote: Thats exactly ehat zerg does. Chip away at mech with swarmhosts and vipers and mutalisks.
Camping with super long range units for 40 mins is not what i had in mind and it breaks what is IMO the key factor in making fun games: contrasting styles.
Zergs harass with mutalisks. What else do you want? Drops are worse than mutalisks. Harassing by ground on 1-2 paths into 3-5 base clusters cannot be done. On maps that are more open than that Mech isnt viable because Zerg running rampant is too much too handle.
Mech vs Zerg currently only works on maps where it very easy to be immune. As long as such maps exist, Zerg needs a siege weapon. But Mech (and protoss) is currently only balanced for such maps.
Since we are talking about design changes, LotV is the last chance to make those happen. For zerg, re-designing infestors vipers and swarmhosts would be great. Nydus network too, its costly and easy to deny, but if its not denied its OP. So its not used a lot since its costly and a coin-flip most of the time, but its also damn strong and frustrating to deal with.
On November 08 2014 00:30 Superbanana wrote: Since we are talking about design changes, LotV is the last chance to make those happen. For zerg, re-designing infestors vipers and swarmhosts would be great. Nydus network too, its costly and easy to deny, but if its not denied its OP. So its not used a lot since its costly and a coin-flip most of the time, but its also damn strong and frustrating to deal with.
Why not try and go further and try and imrpove zergling, hydralisk, roach and mutalisk. More micro, more movement. more tactic?
On November 08 2014 00:30 Superbanana wrote: Since we are talking about design changes, LotV is the last chance to make those happen. For zerg, re-designing infestors vipers and swarmhosts would be great. Nydus network too, its costly and easy to deny, but if its not denied its OP. So its not used a lot since its costly and a coin-flip most of the time, but its also damn strong and frustrating to deal with.
I think Zergs approach the Nydus network as too much of a 'critical' element, so that, if it is used at all, it better have a critical impact. But I think there are other applications for it, like mobility, creating flanks against contains, simply have a more 'utility' purpose than being a fragile critical component in an all-in.
I don't think that the pricing is unfair or that it's too weak per se. But for most 'utility' purposes, it is getting crowded out by the mobility that creep spread gives, almost for free. With creep spread, planning and pre-engagement unit positioning, you don't really need more mobility that your army doesn't already have. I think for moving large armies, it's also partially crowded out by overlord drop, which again, doesn't seem that popular.
On November 08 2014 00:30 Superbanana wrote: Since we are talking about design changes, LotV is the last chance to make those happen. For zerg, re-designing infestors vipers and swarmhosts would be great. Nydus network too, its costly and easy to deny, but if its not denied its OP. So its not used a lot since its costly and a coin-flip most of the time, but its also damn strong and frustrating to deal with.
I think Zergs approach the Nydus network as too much of a 'critical' element, so that, if it is used at all, it better have a critical impact. But I think there are other applications for it, like mobility, creating flanks against contains, simply have a more 'utility' purpose than being a fragile critical component in an all-in.
I don't think that the pricing is unfair or that it's too weak per se. But for most 'utility' purposes, it is getting crowded out by the mobility that creep spread gives, almost for free. With creep spread, planning and pre-engagement unit positioning, you don't really need more mobility that your army doesn't already have. I think for moving large armies, it's also partially crowded out by overlord drop, which again, doesn't seem that popular.
I had this idea, overlord should morph into something that can drop instead of ventral sacks upgrade. Its too costly, but it cannot be cheap because zerg already have the overlords anyway :/ And even with ventral sacks and speed they are the worst transports in game. edit: Foxxan: I think mutas and lings are Very well designed, with plenty of tactical and micro potential O_O. Roach Hydra positioning is an art, so even if its not complex or hard i don't see it as a problem.
On November 08 2014 00:30 Superbanana wrote: Since we are talking about design changes, LotV is the last chance to make those happen. For zerg, re-designing infestors vipers and swarmhosts would be great. Nydus network too, its costly and easy to deny, but if its not denied its OP. So its not used a lot since its costly and a coin-flip most of the time, but its also damn strong and frustrating to deal with.
I think Zergs approach the Nydus network as too much of a 'critical' element, so that, if it is used at all, it better have a critical impact. But I think there are other applications for it, like mobility, creating flanks against contains, simply have a more 'utility' purpose than being a fragile critical component in an all-in.
I don't think that the pricing is unfair or that it's too weak per se. But for most 'utility' purposes, it is getting crowded out by the mobility that creep spread gives, almost for free. With creep spread, planning and pre-engagement unit positioning, you don't really need more mobility that your army doesn't already have. I think for moving large armies, it's also partially crowded out by overlord drop, which again, doesn't seem that popular.
I had this idea, overlord should morph into something that can drop instead of ventral sacks upgrade. Its too costly, but it cannot be cheap because zerg already have the overlords anyway :/ And even with ventral sacks and speed they are the worst transports in game. edit: I think mutas and lings are Very well designed, with plenty of tactical and micro potential O_O. Roach Hydra positioning is an art, so even if its not complex or hard i don't see it as a problem.
I wouldnt say they are the worse actually. The problem with zerg drop is that zerglings suck to be dropped. Roaches kinda suck to.
They have so small surface area both of them. Hydralisks however, are a pretty awesome unit to actually drop - Probably yhe only one in the zerg arsenal but its mostly not worth it to even build this unit iam fraid.
On November 07 2014 21:55 Big J wrote: Thats exactly ehat zerg does. Chip away at mech with swarmhosts and vipers and mutalisks.
Camping with super long range units for 40 mins is not what i had in mind and it breaks what is IMO the key factor in making fun games: contrasting styles.
Zergs harass with mutalisks. What else do you want? Drops are worse than mutalisks. Harassing by ground on 1-2 paths into 3-5 base clusters cannot be done. On maps that are more open than that Mech isnt viable because Zerg running rampant is too much too handle.
Mech vs Zerg currently only works on maps where it very easy to be immune. As long as such maps exist, Zerg needs a siege weapon. But Mech (and protoss) is currently only balanced for such maps.
I could be silly and say that as long as Zerg/ Protoss have a siege weapon that out sieges the Tank AND have the mobility advantage, mech will forever be forced in super turtle mode.
So i think there are 2 options.
1)Do what Blizz tried to do in HOTS. Dance around the problem and just create a mechanical marauder. Still Factory play right? ...
2)You create the anti-mech play of Protoss/Zerg to deal with the weaknesses of mech. You focus on mobility, ease of reinforcement, ease of expand, etc (buff nidus, buff drop play, concentrate on the Viper, etc) You promote tactical play.
Right now the thinking is all wrong IMO and it's no surprise that in spite of numerous buffs, mech is still mostly shit.
On November 08 2014 00:30 Superbanana wrote: Since we are talking about design changes, LotV is the last chance to make those happen. For zerg, re-designing infestors vipers and swarmhosts would be great. Nydus network too, its costly and easy to deny, but if its not denied its OP. So its not used a lot since its costly and a coin-flip most of the time, but its also damn strong and frustrating to deal with.
I think Zergs approach the Nydus network as too much of a 'critical' element, so that, if it is used at all, it better have a critical impact. But I think there are other applications for it, like mobility, creating flanks against contains, simply have a more 'utility' purpose than being a fragile critical component in an all-in.
I don't think that the pricing is unfair or that it's too weak per se. But for most 'utility' purposes, it is getting crowded out by the mobility that creep spread gives, almost for free. With creep spread, planning and pre-engagement unit positioning, you don't really need more mobility that your army doesn't already have. I think for moving large armies, it's also partially crowded out by overlord drop, which again, doesn't seem that popular.
but which contain that occurs around lair timing, let you prepare a nydus to bust the contain and won't break with just having more units? not to mention the speed of unloading speedlings are just horrible. so that leaves roaches / hydra for the good unit for nydus and it is already very gas heavy unit comp
On November 08 2014 00:30 Superbanana wrote: Since we are talking about design changes, LotV is the last chance to make those happen. For zerg, re-designing infestors vipers and swarmhosts would be great. Nydus network too, its costly and easy to deny, but if its not denied its OP. So its not used a lot since its costly and a coin-flip most of the time, but its also damn strong and frustrating to deal with.
I think Zergs approach the Nydus network as too much of a 'critical' element, so that, if it is used at all, it better have a critical impact. But I think there are other applications for it, like mobility, creating flanks against contains, simply have a more 'utility' purpose than being a fragile critical component in an all-in.
I don't think that the pricing is unfair or that it's too weak per se. But for most 'utility' purposes, it is getting crowded out by the mobility that creep spread gives, almost for free. With creep spread, planning and pre-engagement unit positioning, you don't really need more mobility that your army doesn't already have. I think for moving large armies, it's also partially crowded out by overlord drop, which again, doesn't seem that popular.
but which contain that occurs around lair timing, let you prepare a nydus to bust the contain and won't break with just having more units? not to mention the speed of unloading speedlings are just horrible. so that leaves roaches / hydra for the good unit for nydus and it is already very gas heavy unit comp
Double Nydus = double unload speed...
For the mech theming: Where does Mech atm work? Overgroth because you can take 5 bases with ez. Deadwing is damn big, so you can take 4 base at least very easy, but zerg can mine alot more during the typical "i am mech and do nothing but maybe harass time" On Merry, Catallena and in my opinion King S. Station mech gets wrecked. Foxtrot is awfull at all, Zergs wount like it for other things then roach bane and terran wount go mech at all because bio is strong vs zerg there. Nimbus? Can work but why? This map is terrans place to make babys and playing bio there will not only make the game faster but also more predictable because of the map.
On November 08 2014 00:30 Superbanana wrote: Since we are talking about design changes, LotV is the last chance to make those happen. For zerg, re-designing infestors vipers and swarmhosts would be great. Nydus network too, its costly and easy to deny, but if its not denied its OP. So its not used a lot since its costly and a coin-flip most of the time, but its also damn strong and frustrating to deal with.
I think Zergs approach the Nydus network as too much of a 'critical' element, so that, if it is used at all, it better have a critical impact. But I think there are other applications for it, like mobility, creating flanks against contains, simply have a more 'utility' purpose than being a fragile critical component in an all-in.
I don't think that the pricing is unfair or that it's too weak per se. But for most 'utility' purposes, it is getting crowded out by the mobility that creep spread gives, almost for free. With creep spread, planning and pre-engagement unit positioning, you don't really need more mobility that your army doesn't already have. I think for moving large armies, it's also partially crowded out by overlord drop, which again, doesn't seem that popular.
but which contain that occurs around lair timing, let you prepare a nydus to bust the contain and won't break with just having more units? not to mention the speed of unloading speedlings are just horrible. so that leaves roaches / hydra for the good unit for nydus and it is already very gas heavy unit comp
Exactly, that's the problem. There are too few situations where you could even conceive Nydus even be useful. Could this change if you took away some of the bonuses of the creep and buffed zerg units more? I think re-balancing is better, as making the Nydus worm cheaper or buffing reinforcement speed can create some nasty situations by itself.
EPT
